0:00:07.9 BROOM: Hi, I'm Cheryl Broom, CEO of Graduate Communications. The Higher Education Coffee and Conversation podcast is dedicated to exploring issues of importance to staff and faculty who work at community colleges and universities. Community colleges serve so many different purposes. To some... They're a stepping stone to a four-year degree. To others, they are a place to learn English or get ready for the citizenship exam. Some people attend their local community college to earn college units, while others attend to earn an adult high school diploma or prepare for the equivalent exam. Everyone knows that community colleges offer associate degrees and are a gateway to transfer into a four-year institution. We talk a lot about credit students and credit courses, but there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of adults in the United States who rely on community colleges, non-credit or adult education programs, programs like citizenship classes, adult high school diploma courses, short-term certificates, classes for adults with disabilities and English as a Second Language courses, but for some reason, we don't talk a lot about those. In fact, most colleges I have worked with have neglected marketing these programs here in California, legislation even makes it difficult for non-credit programs to hire full-time tenure-track faculty.

0:01:30.1 BROOM: I think it's about time that non-credit has its day in the sun, and that's exactly what my podcast guest has done at her institution. In this episode of Higher Ed Coffee and Conversation, Christina Gascone, the interim dean of instruction and student services at Santiago Canyon College division of Continuing Education launched a large marketing campaign that over the course of the last year has grown her program substantially. She talks about why the non-credit department is often overlooked, what investing in marketing has done for her programs and for her students and how non-credit students have coped with the challenges brought by the COVID 19 pandemic. Christina, I am really happy to have you on the podcast, and I just wanted to start off by having you introduce yourself and tell me about you and your career and how you got started with community colleges.

0:02:24.7 GASCONE: My name is Christy Gascon, and currently I'm the executive director of the California adult education program and an administrator at Santiago Canyon College. Starting next week, I will be the interim Dean of Student Services and instruction. And I got started as an instructor, actually, I have always been in non-credit, and I started back in about 1997 as an ESL instructor, so I taught English as a second language for over 20 years, and then when the AB86 and legislation started coming out, I moved into writing those proposals and moved into overseeing that and then into administration. Okay.

0:03:19.0 BROOM: Can you tell me a little bit about that legislation, what it did for non-credit programs and now what you do as a result of it? Sure.

0:03:27.7 GASCONE: Actually, it did it a lot prior to AB 86, which was the first legislation, it had been that... We really didn't talk to our K-12 adult ed counterparts very much, community colleges, and the K-12s were separate in their adult education, and what it really wanted is for us to work together and make sure that we were allowing students to have the opportunity to move between programs and advance what their goals were, have seamless transitions, not only between our programs, but then also into credit programs or into the workforce, and it gave us some pretty straightforward goals of taking on credit and adult education to the next level, and really bringing our students into our credit side of the college or into the workplace, and not just into the workplace, but into the workplace with skills that would get them a very good income, you know, an income that would be able to sustain them... Sustain a family, things like that. So really, we were only able to work on certain areas of non-credit, there are 10 or they're 10 different programs. Some we call non-credit, others we call CDC... The CDC side of the house is career development and college preparation, and those are the classes that this legislation focused on, which are short-term vocational ESL and citizenship, the immigration part of it, an elementary and secondary education, and then they also added a few other things like helping parents or guardians that help students younger K-12 students succeed in school, so those were areas of focus, and over the last five to six years, the state as a whole has really been building on these huge collaborations.

0:05:28.9 GASCONE: In our district, we work with three other K-12, two of which have adult education programs, and the things that have come out of it are great, we do classes on each other's campuses, we mix what we're doing, and we open classes for students when one campus is closed, it's really been a great collaboration.

0:05:52.3 BROOM: And that's something that's really special and unique with non-credit is that you are able to offer courses actually in the community... 

GASCONE: Most of our classes are in the community. When I taught for 20 years, I never taught on a college campus, I always taught out in the community, and usually at one of our K-12 schools that offered up classrooms for our use. 

BROOM: We did a focus group with some of your students. It's been a while, maybe almost two years ago, or maybe last year on... This seems like a really long ago, and I remember we asked the students how they heard about programs, they were ESL students, and one of them actually heard about it on her elementary school campus, I think that there was a program being held there and they had a booth and I remember thinking how fantastic that you can bring your children to school and then take a course on that campus to learn English.

0:06:54.9 GASCONE: Yeah, my students lined up with the elementary students, school children in the morning, and my classes were actually during the day on the elementary school campus, they were parents, student type name tags to identify themselves and... Yeah, I was in between two first grade classes, and it was really great. They would leave my class, and almost all of them served on their school's PTA and student site council, and it really brought this educational level to the parents that they didn't have before, and the principal at the school loved it, as did all of the parents that needed that opportunity and just having their kids see them in the school was also a great, great experience for their young children in elementary school. 

0:07:41.0 BROOM: As I was working on the community college system, that your type of program concrete education programs didn't get a lot of attention in terms of marketing or outreach dollars, and I know that's changing now, particularly in California, because a lot of the non-credit programs are starting to invest in marketing. But why do you think that is? It seems like some of these programs have been like our best kept secrets.

0:08:09.4 GASCONE: Yeah, and I've been in non-credit for close to 25 years, and it's a hard one for me to even answer because I see all the good we do, but I think because they don't go towards those state standards of the metrics of getting your AA degree or getting a credit certificate that sometimes people overlook them, and quite honestly, a lot of times in our credit divisions, people do not know about us, so it's not just outside people, it's also people within the college system. Not all community colleges have a non-credit system, they're really starting now to expand in many, many, many of the community colleges, but we've had ours for 40 years more, and we don't have a big K-12 adult education school that's serving our area, so it's a little bit different usually, or I should say in many areas, like in Los Angeles, the bulk of adulation is carried by K-12. In Orange County, it's split 50-50 community colleges, really? Between Rancho Santiago Community College District, North Orange Community College district, we serve over 60,000-70,000 students between the two of us, so it's very, very big, but yet we're still not known, and I think part of it is what we do, the high school diploma, the ESL, the citizenship, I don't think CS is an opportunity before, or as our students were part of their students, they don't see them as much on campus, but with the passage of some further legislation with AB-705 and the chancellor's new guided pathways, credit side of the house are really opening their doors to see that we are the start of the pathway, and our students are not only coming to the credit side, but they're being very successful.

0:10:19.2 BROOM: Yeah, and that's something that I had always thought about when I was at MiraCosta was how do we turn these non-credit students and to credit students, but then not going back further and saying, How does the community find out about these fantastic programs? 

0:11:00.9 GASCONE: I can understand that when I was an ESL teacher, our whole outreach program was flyers in the backpack, and posters or signs at local elementary schools and paper, really paper flyers at different offices and community centers within our community. And that was the brunt of it.Most of our advertising really came from people going and telling a friend, and we would send home a mail or three times a year with our classes, and that was all we ever did until just a few years ago, when we decided to look into... Should we market like the credit side markets?

0:11:21.5 BROOM: We've... Obviously, we've partnered up, so I have some questions about how that's... How that's gone. But before we get there, I wanted to talk to you a little bit more about the type of programs that you offer, because as I worked with you in particular, I learned so much about non-credit and adult education, so even though I've been working in the system for 15 years, there was so much I didn't know about the programs who offered, so I think that our listeners can learn a lot from you and your experience, for example, I knew that we offer high school diploma programs and also preparation for tests like the GED, but I had no idea that people can take their GED and other languages besides English, and I thought What a missed opportunity because there's so many people out there who probably want to take their GED in Spanish, but aren't aware that they can prepare for that in Spanish and sit and take the test in that language. 

0:12:21.3 GASCONE: It has always been available as far as I know, and there are three different testing services, we actually use high set more than we use the GED at our community college, because they offer a paper pencil version and we teach in the jails, and we can't do the online version of the GED and the jails, just because of that Internet connection, but yes, it's Spanish, English, French, it doesn't notate it on their equivalency certificate, it just states that they have passed their high school equivalency. So, we do have quite a few students. We've also now recently become a high set testing center, and I would say it's about 50-50 of not just our students, but people in the community that come in and take the test, it's about a 50-50% split of who take two takes the test in English. And who takes the test in Spanish? Yeah.

0:13:14.0 BROOM: And you had explained to me that the tests aren't measuring your language proficiency, they're actually measuring... If you can pass high school.

0:13:23.9 GASCONE: Doesn't matter the language, 'cause we would take a high school diploma from a foreign country and still count that. So it's not really the language. So if it's the English section, they would be taking that in French or Spanish, and it would be their knowledge of language, their language, the reading, the writing skills within their own language.

0:13:44.6 BROOM: Then most adult education programs do offer some sort of preparation for these tests.

0:13:50.3 GASCONE: Yes, and I shouldn't say most community colleges, it's a little bit, I think more rare to see the high school diploma program in the community college setting. It's much, much more common at the K-12 adult educations, we happen to have a large high school diploma program, but that's something that might even surprise people in adult education. I know when I came into it and started working with directors from other Cape Consortia, they were very surprised to hear that we had a high school program at our community college, they really felt that was for K-12, but we graduate probably between our two colleges in our district, about 250 high school graduates a year. And then more when you add in the high school equivalency, that's so amazing, and it's such a great opportunity for people in the community to come back and to get a diploma, 

BROOM: and when we did that focus group a couple of years ago, I remember your student area who came and took ESL classes, and then ended up going into the high school diploma program, and then from there was taking credit classes. 

GASCONE: Yeah, that happens a lot. I remember when I was teaching, I taught the very lowest level of ESL, and it was great, three years after I taught a student, I ran into her on campus and she was about to get her high school diploma, and I just couldn't believe the transformation and the student, and it gives people so much opportunity from not speaking the language, to not only speaking the language, but having a high school diploma, it was just great to see, and we see that a lot, and I think it's what most people that are in adult education love about our jobs, is the transition that our students are able to go through...

0:15:50.4 BROOM: Yeah, your programs are really touching people's lives and changing and changing them and their families.

0:15:57.7 GASCONE: Yes. Now, you also offer programs for adults with disabilities, and that is actually something that came out of the Adult Education Consortium, when a 86 first came out, it really asked us to look deep in to look at where our gaps were, and our district was not serving adults with disabilities, we really didn't have any classes for adults with disabilities, and we decided that we wanted to make that one of our main goals and to build a program to serve that need, and our program is really to assist with adults with cognitive disabilities to be able to enter the workforce. So we have different classes, applying writing skills on the job, applying math skills on the job, social etiquette on the job, things like that, we've also partnered with some different companies and non-profits, so we have programs where our students actually go and the part of their program is working, and the end goal really is to get our students competitive, integrated employment and be able to go out in the workforce, but what we've also noticed is... Some of our students have gone on to get their high school diploma. They might not have been on the diploma track in high school, but we've had some decided to go in and get their high school diploma, some have transferred into the credit side and some have transferred into our career education programs.

0:17:28.0 GASCONE: So it's been really great, it's a smaller program that is just building year by year, and

0:17:35.1 BROOM: It's such a heart-warming program too, it's just amazing to see, again, the transformation that the instructors and the classroom environment has on people lifting them up and giving them skills and opportunities that they might not have found otherwise.

0:17:51.1 GASCONE: Yeah, I completely agree. These

0:17:53.2 BROOM: Are the great stories that I know that we love to tell for you, and that I'm hoping that people who listen to the podcast will start thinking what kind of stories are in a community college’s non-credit program that we need to be telling and we need to be sharing with the community 'cause stories are so important, and showcasing the great work you do and letting people know what's available to them. Yeah.

0:18:16.4 GASCONE: I agree, and I think when you look at the individuals and some of their stories, that's what really sells people on what we do, and it really gets to the heart of the matter of what we do. I think of some of the collaborations we have, we work with, for example, with adults with disabilities, we work with Chuck hospital, we work with the regional center of Orange County Department of Rehabilitation, goodwill, and we work with all of these people. And all of them touch the student in some way to be able to assist them in getting their goal set, and it is so great when you see how each person can come in and assist that yet you're a solid team assisting the student, those types of things. Are awesome.

0:19:06.3 BROOM: Your career education programs are really unique to... And I was wondering if non-credit and adult ed programs have more leeway with how you offer certificates and certifications than the credit side does. 

0:19:22.3 GASCONE: For us, our big underlying factor is we have to be short-term vocational, so we're really looking at programs that are maybe 12 to 18 months, and usually 12 months, that's the type of program we're looking at, there are some programs out there that are really needed that are very, very short, like three months, and it's a little bit harder for a credit side of the college to offer this. So for example, I have a program that we started this last year, it's a behavior technician program, in order to get this state certification, it's an industry certification, which you have to have to work with certain companies, it's 40 hours of course work and 15 hours of field work, so for a total of 55 hours, that's not... It's a very short certificate for, let's say a college credit program, but it's perfect for a program like ours, we're able to offer that for free, the student can set for their certification, go right into work, and that's a certification that came to us from industry, they came to us and asked us if we could make it for them. Because they were doing the training. And it was costing them too much.

0:20:34.7 GASCONE: So things like that really work in non-credit, another one is a certified nurse assistant, it is a four-month program for us, you can do it in less, but because of the amount of hours our teachers are qualified to teach in our part-time arena, and most of our teachers are part-time, it takes about four months to get through our program, but again, it's free, and when they... And their lesson to their lessons, but their whole program, they are able to sit for the state license, which not only helps them get a job as a CNA, but also can help them get into an RN program and have that furthering of their education. It puts them up higher in most places on the wait list to get into an RN program, we have a lot of things that we can articulate and work with the credit side from our program to theirs, and these students are ready. They've had the skill set, they've learned it, they know they want it, and they're ready to complete those AA degrees.

0:21:36.5 BROOM: We're recording this right now. We're right in the middle of COVID. And one of the trends that we've been seeing in education, our students are actively looking for short-term certificates, they want certifications, they want stackable certificates where they can complete a program, get some validation, some sort of certification and put that on their resume and then move on to the next thing, so there's this need for short-term certificates, even more so than long-term AA degrees or transfer degrees. I say there's such a great opportunity for colleges to invest in these short-term certifications right now, or to look and see what you currently have, 'cause I can't tell you how many colleges I've talked to that aren't even aware of what short-term Certificates they have in their non-credit office. And

0:22:34.2 GASCONE: That's true, but I have to say we've, at least on our campuses with guided pathways, and I know I've said that a lot, maybe our 8705 and these other legislation has really opened up the door and for us and credit to have really great dialogue and for them to know more about us. And I think that with the credit side, learning more, this is the first year I've ever had credit faculty say, Can we have a meeting? And we'll drive to you... 'cause I'm off campus. And they wanted to see where we were, what we were doing, and it was great to have that. I've always driven to the credit side or tried to initiate the meetings and not anymore... People are really interested. They have students in the Health Department that want CNAS while they're getting their AA degree. And they're like, Could we work something out? And it was such a great conversation, and that is going open doors for more students to get something in the meanwhile while they're getting their AA degree and they can work and further their degree.

0:23:45.5 BROOM: Yeah, I love that. I think it's so important to have that option because not everybody can commit to a two-year program full-time, as we know at most colleges, students aren't graduating in two years, it can take four years, it can take six years. It's a big investment in time and resources. And that non-credit short-term certificate is tuition-free and takes, like you said, 12 months on average, so it's such a great opportunity for people, especially I would assume, like working parents who wanna learn a new skill or start a new career, but don't have the time and resources to invest in a full degree program, and

0:24:25.4 GASCONE: Another thing we offer is the repeatability, it's something that I don't think a lot of people think of a lot, but sometimes it's very difficult for a student that has not been in school possibly ever... Or for a very long time, someone that's coming back that maybe is trying to learn a new trade and just going to school is difficult and they might not be successful, that first class. That ability to be like, This is non-credit, I can take it again. Or I can take as much time as I need. It gives them a little bit more... As much as we would like them to finish in a timely manner and go on, it's not for everyone, and they have that ability, if they get a job and they can't come, they can pick a class in another hour and move into that class. There's a lot of flexibility within non-credit to allow them to do what they need to do in their lives as well.

0:25:22.6 BROOM: So they're not gonna get a big red mark on their... transcript. Think about going back to school right now. It's a big undertaking. It really is. I can... And so that flexibility and having it be a little bit more open, I'm sure would be very appealing to... Especially to working adults.

0:25:46.8 GASCONE: I think so. And being able to come in the evening and come in in the mornings, and now we do a lot online. 

0:25:55.1 BROOM: How has that transition been for you and your programs, particularly with the student population you serve, the move to online over the last couple of months because of COVID, how have you coped with that? 

0:26:08.7 GASCONE: It's been difficult. Not gonna... I'm not gonna sugar-coat it. I was... And I think most people in community colleges will feel the same way. Most of us had three days, four days to transition everything to online or a remote instruction. One of the things that we had done this past year was we had made it a focus of our non-credit to start online, online is now to coming to non-credit, not a lot of colleges had started online, there's about three or four big ones that had been doing it, and so we were lucky we had 20 of our Career Ed classes already online during the spring semester, so we didn't have to transition them, and a lot of the teachers and students were a little bit more familiar... It was harder in our ESL and high school programs, but because we'd already had to jump in a lot of faculty and students that take classes within other disciplines, it helped us a little bit, I think, and now we lost students in the beginning, I would say 50% dropped that first week, a 50% to 60%, but then slowly we started gaining students towards the semester's end, and we ended up a little bit below, but not nearly what we thought where we would be at in our summer...

0:27:34.5 GASCONE: I think my numbers are the same or more than last summer for at least for my division or my department, but it still... Students are missing being on campus, and one of the biggest problems, I would say with it is not everybody has access to computers, WiFi, a quiet area, we serve a homeless population, there is no library for them to go into our classroom for them to go into. We serve parents who are homeschooling their children, they don't have access to the computer because their children are on the computer, so they have other needs that maybe not all students would have... Our population is, they are mostly working and raising families, and they have so much more responsibility and with everybody being home, I think it's much more difficult for them in their studies.

0:28:37.3 BROOM: Definitely. I have two kids and a full-time job, I could not imagine putting in a course or trying to learn another language on top of that, but you are having people do it and they're being successful despite those challenges, they

0:28:54.2 GASCONE: Are, and I can't tell you... We had people graduating all through March, April, May, and finishing their high school diplomas, and every time one came up, we were like, Yes, because what? Perseverance to do this during our  COVID-19 stay-at home, all the new guidelines, and they were still doing it. And it's a lot of power to them, and I have to say a lot of power to the faculty, they have worked so hard to make these classes accessible, hours and hours and hours of their own personal time, I would say, because that's how much the care to make sure that the students had access. And we're able to get books and were able to get computers, so we have started a computer lending program and a book lending program, so anything we can do, we're trying to do to help the students during this time. And I think it is a real testament to the faculty as well, and that... 

BROOM: You mentioned that most of them are part-time. 

GASCONE: I would say, at least within our district, in non-credit, we have about, I would say 96% are adjunct part-time faculty, and percent, 3%, maybe up to 5% full-time, but that...

0:30:26.6 GASCONE: That would really be a lot... And it really comes down to the rules of the Chancellor's office, and we do not count for the full-time obligation number of faculty, the 75-25% split, so it's very difficult for us to be able to hire full-time, especially when our credit has to hit that obligation number. So it's always been difficult. Many part-time non-credit teachers teach at multiple colleges and districts, just so that they can have an equivalency of a full-time job. I know I did it for 20 years, but it's just right now, until things change, we just don't have... It's just not equal on the credit, non-credit when it comes to full-time faculty.

0:31:16.9 BROOM: Well, crisis opportunity in the future for new legislation that would be on...

0:31:24.8 GASCONE: Our faculty would love it.

0:31:28.5 BROOM: What's particularly interesting is that there is a sense of inequality in that example between credit and non-credit programs, but the college actually gets a lot of revenue from your program, so even though you're not charging a tuition fee, you are getting dollars from the state for educating students, and in many ways, that's helping to support your districts credit programs.

0:31:56.5 GASCONE: Yes, we do, now with the new student-centered funding formula, and with us being not on that, we actually are full attendance-based, so FTS is... We get 100% of that, so depending on what type of courses we are paid at the credit level for those full-time student equivalent hours, and it's at 100% of whatever they are doing. So it is quite a significant... Yeah.

0:32:30.3 BROOM: And I think this is a perfect segue into talking about your marketing campaign. We actually just on a call a couple of weeks ago with a college in Los Angeles, and we were talking about shifting their marketing because of COVID, they had seen a decline in credit applications, and I had asked what they were doing to market their non-credit programs and they weren't doing anything. I mentioned that they get paid the same for a non-credit student as a credit, and the whole marketing apartment was shocked, they had no idea, they thought they weren't getting any funds from the non-credit side, so they hadn't invested any thought into how to market those classes. So I think that's an important thing for communicators and for marketers to know in California, and it might be different in other states, that you are getting revenue from your non-credit program, so when you're looking at a return on investment, these are the perfect programs to be marketing.

0:33:32.1 GASCONE: Oh yeah, and especially the one thing you have to know is even if they are a non-credit class, which we differentiate between the 10 program areas of in non-credit, so older adults, Health and Safety, parenting students with substantial disabilities, citizenship courses, those types of classes are paid at a non-credit rate, it's not quite half, but about 60% of what we have is the CDC rate, and the CDC rate would be the classes like high school, elementary and secondary education, ESL workforce preparation, short-term vocational, those courses are all paid at the same rate of FTS as credit, and that is the bulk of what we teach, at least within our district, are in those CDC courses, so it does bring in a lot of revenue and it's equal revenue.

0:34:29.9 BROOM: Yeah, and that's great, and those courses are the ones I think people are searching out right now, those short-term Vocational English as a second language, high school diploma, and it's a perfect thing to be marketing to your community, your marketing campaign has been tremendous, you've done a lot of work, and I know you spoke at a conference about all the work and the surprises with your marketing campaign and the challenges and the successes, so let's talk a little bit about that. So explain how you came about, how you got passionate about marketing your programs and the pathway that you took.

0:35:05.2 GASCONE: Well, being over our Career Ed department, I'm also very involved with strong workforce... In the strong workforce program in Orange County, a few years ago, they started a big marketing campaign, and it was the first time I'd really seen our community colleges are even on the credit side, marketed in that way for our district. And it was so great to be able to see things on billboards or hear things on radio, see things show up in my Facebook or Instagram, and I'm like, Hey, that's my college. And I thought, Why not non-credit? And I actually started by trying to do it with strong workforce, but we were not in their plan to include non-credit, so I'm like, Okay, we can use our own funding from CAPE and see how that goes. And I think it was a very, very good idea. I know I contacted you and we started working out a plan, but it was a lot of work, I didn't realize because we weren't set up for that, making sure we were ready to accept social media and people could contact us via our website and making sure our website was prepared and that we were prepared, and it took a lot more planning and setting up then I would have ever imagined, but what we notice going through this is we looked at everything through the eyes of our students, were We website-friendly? We were not...

0:36:42.6 GASCONE: And the marketing campaign has really helped us become better at looking at things through the student's eyes, is this easy for them to navigate, and that's such important work that you did in the beginning. I know we recommended, for example, having landing pages, and some of our clients don't take that recommendation, so they just say, No, get the advertisements out, and the we point students to these websites that are impossible to navigate, or we're advertising in Spanish, but we're pointing them to an English page, 

BROOM: but you actually took the time to revise, write content and make your web pages, student-centered... Yeah.

0:37:28.7 GASCONE: We did, and we were a little bit different as well as... Because we did it as a consortium, we included everyone, so we did this with our K-12, our sister college, we did it together, and so our landing page, we had to be very trust full of one another because we decided to make the landing page to ESL, but the SL had different options, they could go to a community college, or they could go to a K-12, what was in their area, what was best for the student, and I think by doing it that way, it helped everyone, because there are a lot of students in our area that don't know, they're going to want to go to the place that's closest to them, closest to their work, and to be able to have those options and have maps available. And to be able to find the right program for them, I think it was a wise decision. And then each of us working on our own pages to make that next click over also accessible.

0:38:34.3 BROOM: Yeah, a lot of work. I know that I've heard you say a couple of times over the last couple of years. I didn't expect it to be this much work.

0:38:45.8 GASCONE: That's so true. I remember we had our meeting, I think in March or April, I want to say it was 2018. Expecting to get started in July, and it was like July of 2019. It took us that long. And that is the one recommendation I will give anyone is to go in this with open eyes because I am not a marketer, that's not my business background, I don't have it, I just thought I would pay you money and poof, it would all be perfect, but now you have to be prepared to work equally with the people you're hiring to make sure it's going work, and that's what I wasn't prepared for, but I would do it all over again because that growth helped us grow as we're looking at ways of how we do our applications differently, how we have our landing pages on our websites differently, all of these things came out of us seeing it through the students eyes from a marketing perspective. Yeah.

0:40:00.5 BROOM: And you take that holistic approach, not only are you recruiting better, but you're serving students better as well.

0:40:07.6 GASCONE: Yes, definitely.

0:40:09.1 BROOM: I think marketing for non-credit is, in many ways more challenging than credit marketing because it's particularly for you as a consortium on the credit side, everybody knows what  a college is, everybody knows what a community college does, and so you can talk about the college and talk about it in these broad strokes, and people understand you go to a community college to get an associate degree or certificate that nobody knows what a non-credit consortium is, and people in the community don't know what non-credit education is, and your program diversity is so and so. Why you're serving people with disabilities and people who don't speak English and working adults, so we really encouraged you to market your individual programs rather than painting such a broad brush on who you are as an organization, and how do you think that has gone?

0:41:04.3 GASCONE: I think it's gone well. I think that going forward, I think also, I think to start, we had to do it in a broad brush because that's who we are, but in doing that, we kind of have seen what's working, what's not working, what works for certain areas, because we did do a wide array of marketing between our PR or emails or YouTube and Facebook geo-fencing, we did a large amount of different types of marketing, and I do think some work for some areas better than others, and I think as we go on, there might be certain programs that we want to pinpoint and just market those at a time, I know we picked up and did an online marketing campaign with you, separate from the one that we are doing, and I don't... It's hard to know because there's so many things going on with covid and things shifting to online, but our online numbers have drastically increased, but it's always going to be a combination factor, but I think it helps that we're out there and we're advertising it. Yeah.

0:42:19.4 BROOM: That's always the million-dollar question, this marketing actually lead to enrollment, and I think I'd be making twice my salary if I could answer that

0:42:29.4 GASCONE: Maybe 10 times at... The only thing I can say is, at least within my department, I had growth this past year, and that's a lot to be said, when we went through COVID 19, I think I ended at 110%, trying to hit 100%. And that was at my 17-18 year, that was my baseline, because we haven't been able to get that for a while, so not only did I have growth, but it was... It was pretty substantial for my program, other programs within our division of non-credit also had growth, and I do think that the marketing helped, and I think that the things that we did because of it also helped the changing of the way that we are doing things. Making new programs, making the curriculum updating, making things more accessible, all of those things combined, I think are always going to help programs.

0:43:28.7 BROOM: Definitely, and people need... Especially now, during COVID, they need to hear about the programs digitally, because that word of mouth that's so important on the non-credit side isn't going be as readily available with parents not going to elementary schools and people not socializing, that is going decrease... It's going go away a little bit, so making sure you have that online presence and that you're doing the type of tactics, you talked about, YouTube and social media is really important. And email, our emails do tremendous, so I think it definitely doesn't hurt, of course it helps. And I think it's even more important in today's environment...

0:44:11.9 GASCONE: Yeah, and I know, I haven't looked at... I just got a new monthly synopsis of what our marketing did last month, but I was really surprised when we got our first YouTube video back from this last campaign for the ESL that in its first month had 92,000 views or something. That was a lot. That was a lot more than I was expecting. And ESL is one of the areas that surprise me the most, we weren't sure how well a media campaign would do because we were thinking our students didn't have a lot of computers at home or things to access it, and they're probably... I believe the group that has accessed at the most and clicked more and everything, it's higher within ESL, and that was something that came back that surprised us, and that's one of the things I liked about the marketing, was we learn things that we absolutely did not know, or things that we thought were correct, we learned that, Oh, that wasn't accurate, and to be able to get those type of information, that type of information really helps in planning for future classes, for future online endeavors, all of those types of things.

0:45:31.9 GASCONE: One of the things was How many students were accessing or ads from a desktop computer, we thought almost everyone would be accessing them from phones, but our highest margin was desktop computers. That surprised all of us. Yeah, that is very surprising. Actually.

0:45:48.5 BROOM: I was looking at other colleges report one of our other clients, and we saw a similar trend that a lot of the ads were being accessed from a desktop, I think maybe that is a change because of COVID too, is that people are home, they're on their computers for work, and now they're starting to interact with ads and social media more from a computer than a phone, plus you want them on the computer too, because they're more likely to fill out the application. So you and I did a whole hour presentation and we aired our dirty laundry, which I think people participle appreciated, because putting on a campaign as aggressive and large as yours is not without its hiccups, but like you said in the end... The results have been fantastic. So, any advice you would give to other colleges who are, especially to non-credit programs who haven't marketed before, what would you tell them going into this...

0:46:52.9 GASCONE: Really, the biggest thing is to be open to learning new things, we're in education, we're not really in business and marketing, and you kind of have to switch hats when you do something like this and be willing to learn and really support what you're doing, it's not something where you can just hand something over and say, market this for me, you have to do the leg work to make it a better campaign, you have to be willing to go over things and say, Yes, that meets our students, or that... Yes, that portrays our student... Because no one... Like no one knows your students, like you know your students, and a marketing firm like yours, you come up with these great phrases and put pictures together, but it might be more reflective of credit... The non-credit, and you have to be able to go in and say, We need to switch this one out and work together, and being able to do that and work so closely with you guys, I think that's what made it turn out really well, but it took a lot of work going back, I could almost say it. My job...

0:48:02.7 GASCONE: So my big advice would be make sure you have the manpower to assist you with it. I did do this almost solo, I had people to go back and shoot things off of, but I think if I did it again, I might have a team to really help because it's a lot of time...

0:48:27.2 BROOM: Yeah, or a corn... If a college had the funds to hire their own coordinator within would probably be a great position to

0:48:36.7 GASCONE: An outreach person that took this on with you, even if it was one extra person, I think that it would really help and that two of our best people that help me came from our outreach team at each of our colleges, because I could run things by them and say, Oh, we would say it like this, or... Because even for me, I don't send things out like that as much that that's what they are specialty is, so I think just getting that together and knowing that it's gonna take longer than you are probably thinking in your head, I thought, we'd get this off and running very quickly, and it took us months and months to get it set up, and even with that, you guys said, Oh, you guys went fast.

0:49:24.8 BROOM: Well, there are sometimes that we send ads and ideas for approvals and then colleges sit on them, they're not able to get back to us or approve, so it's such a good point. You have to be involved. We don't just run things without your input, and that input is critical, and I think we learned... Our writers in particular, learn so much from you and your team because they would write these creative pieces and you would come back and say, Okay, how is an ESL student going to understand this? This play on words. And I think that's part of advertising is there's a lot of play on words, and we're like, Oh, we just need to be direct... Learn English. Yeah.

0:50:12.1 GASCONE: Remember I had something like, Drive your future, and I'm like, No. Because that's part of it, is you have to look at where our students are at in their skill level, their language level, and what is it that we're hoping to gain out of the ads, and for us it was learn a new skill, learn English, and sometimes just saying the basic of what it is more helpful. Yeah, and we also, beyond just giving those snapshots of a program, learn English, learn a skill, we also like for the YouTube ads showed success too. So, I think that was a really important part of your campaign was some of those ones ending the faces. I think that it makes it real to the students that are sitting at home and wanting to do it.

0:51:05.8 BROOM: I think that is so key, because as we talked about earlier, the stories, the amazing stories from your students are so worth telling and they're so inspirational. So, I think it's a great way to showcase what you do and to recruit at the same time, so if people are interested in looking at your campaign, I'd be happy to show them if you're okay, Kristy, I know people are asking all the time to see examples of good. Non-credit work? Absolutely, yes, we will showcase... And as we wrap up, I wanted... I wrote this down from the beginning of our conversation that you're starting a new position next week...

0:51:46.8 GASCONE: I am interment instruction and student services. 

BROOM And is that going be at Santiago Canyon? It'll be a Santiago Canyon College and within the non-credit

GASCONE: so it'll be... For this year, we've had a lot of shifting going on in our campus, starting at the top with a new president, new vice pre... And one of our vice presidents, and so there's been a lot of shifting and we're all kind of taking on some new roles this year, but I will still be over the California adult education program, still be over the career technical and adults with disabilities programs, and most likely still be working on the marketing, my rules haven't shifted that much, but my title as

0:52:26.2 BROOM: Well, we've had such a great experience working with you and the consortium, and it's exciting to see you move into it into a different role, and hopefully you can continue to educate people about all the great things that your programs do and offer to the community. Well.

0:52:43.0 GASCONE: Thank you so much. Yeah.

0:52:45.5 BROOM: So I think that's it. I have a million other questions for you, but we've already been talking for an hour. I will wrap up

0:52:52.5 GASCONE: Is for us to do... Yeah.

0:52:54.1 BROOM: It's very easy. I told Chrissie that of all of them, I guess. I think I could probably keep her on for hours and hours and what we never even got to the fun stories of your Swedish grandma, so maybe we'll save that for part two. 

0:53:17.7 BROOM: Well, thank you again and congratulations on the new position, and if anybody wants to take a look at the fantastic work that Christy and her team has done, just reach out and ask me and I'd be happy to send some examples over, so with them, say goodbye, Chrissy. And thank you so much for your time. 

GASCONE: Thank you, Cheryl. 

BROOM: Thank you for listening to Higher Education Coffee and Conversation. If you like the podcast, please leave me a five-star rating and discover more great higher education-related content, make sure to visit us at graduate communications dot com, and with that, I'm going say thank you for listening, thank you for the hard work you do for students each and everyday.