Crime & Entertainment
Crime & Entertainment
Guilty Or Innocent? When is Self-Defense a Good Strategy: The Dallas Gutierrez Story
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Today, on Crime & Entertainment, we have Dallas Gutierrez. Dallas is a Texas based criminal attorney who joins us this week to weigh in on some of the recent self-defense cases in the news. We cover the Austin Metcalf/Karmelo Anthony Trial as well as the Cyrus Carmack-Belton & Rick Chow case. What is self-defense, when can you use it and when can you not? Dallas breaks it down for the public in this latest episode.
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They chased this kid 130 yards. A football field is 100 yards. That is a long way to chase somebody, folks. That is definitely off your property. You lose a lot of leeway in what you do when you're off your property in situations like this.
SPEAKER_01On the outside looking in, it doesn't look like he could have used self-defense because again, you ran. You are the aggressor. He wasn't aggressive towards you. You are the aggressor. He falls, or even if he reaches, you have a gun on him. If you have guns, you know. Okay, if he had the, you had to have, in my mind, you had to have it drawn. The only thing that makes sense is you ran after this guy with a gun and shot him. And luckily, he had a gun on him.
SPEAKER_00If I'm that kid and I turn around and I pop both of these guys and put them down, you were chased 130 yards by two people. But I think had he shot them, I think he would have had a good chance of walking. In my opinion, he's still gonna have to fight it.
SPEAKER_01He'd have had to fight and it would have been tough. It still would have been tough, but I think he would have had a better reason. I'm good, I'm good. How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_00I'm good, man. So we actually met uh on, I guess you would say, through TikTok and a hobby that you and I uh share together. And I realized you were an attorney when I seen your name uh in the Texas area, and I've been really looking for somebody to kind of get on and give their side, especially from a you know a lawyer's perspective on the Carmela Anthony case with the who was involved in the stabbing with all Stim Metcalf uh last year, and kind of compare that to some of the other cases that's been going on in the area, because a lot of times, and you and I just talked off air, you can have similar circumstances, similar cases, but depending on the state and even down to the county, as you alluded to, you can have different outcomes. But before we dive straight into that, man, give us a little quick 10 cent tour where you grew up, what made you be a lawyer, and then we can get into some of the meat and potatoes of this case.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well, um like I like you said, my name is Dallas. I'm from what's called the Panhandle of Texas, uh, West Texas, or is what some people call it, but uh it's about 13 hours from where I currently live. That's the Lubbock area, cotton fields, dry bare bones. Um, and I'm I'm uh since I was about seven years old, I wanted to be at a defense attorney. I actually talked to some kids about this just yesterday. I went to go talk to uh after-school program type situation, and and I told them, hey, you know, follow your dreams. It could really be what like what you decide now can really be what you achieved to do. Uh, and of course, you never know if that's gonna happen, but um, I said I wanted to be an attorney. I've had people who I have one cousin currently still in prison, and my uncle was in prison at a very at a young age for me. And so I always wanted to be a defense attorney. Um, I have nothing but respect for prosecutors. I understand that they have a lot more control over a situation than even defense attorneys have. But it's just hard for me because even now, day to day, I see the the large amount of people who go to jail, what they look like, and the reason they're in jail, and a lot of it is money. But um it it it's always been a place in my heart to where like I try to help people, I try not to be greedy, I try to do my part in the criminal justice system of giving people who need a defense to defense. Um, when I first started, uh I had people like, you're only doing this to get paid. And for a misdemeanor here, you get paid $500. And actually, at the time, I think it was $300 to like be a court-appointed attorney. And I was like, sir, even $300 is like minimum wage after all the time I'll put into your case. Like, I'm not doing this for the money. I mean, I'm gonna try to help you out. Like, they all say that, and I'm like, well, let's look at why they're saying that. You've been in here 25 times, yeah, you continue to do the same thing. Like, I'm not judging you, but I could see why people don't want to give you the benefit of the doubt. And they're like, Yeah, so I uh I see that all the time, and that that's kind of why I get in here. So um, that's just a little bit about me. Um, I know we we are fascinated with helmets, and we have a helmet addiction, so that's how we ended up meeting. But yeah, that's a little bit about myself.
SPEAKER_00All right, well, let's dive into this case here. So obviously, now this case is um, you know, it's been resolved to the point of he was sentenced to, I believe, 35 years. Now, from what I see, and the internet can really spread a lot of misinformation. The internet's a great tool if used properly, but it's also a great spreader of misinformation. And I'm seeing to where now he's putting together this legal dream team that is supposed to, you know, file uh whatever the what is what is it called with the house? Appeal, yeah. I'm sorry. I was blanking on that. An appeal on his behalf. Well, my first thought is why the hell do you wait until you're convicted to put together this legal dream team? Why didn't you do that before when you were on trial? And there's also a lot of factors in about, you know, the jurors and the skin color and all that. So I I guess I'm really not even sure exactly where to start, but let's start with the case itself, right? So when this first happened, what was your take on it before you got any news on it? What was your take when it first happened? Because that's your take when it first happened can always vary and shift when more things come out. What was your take when it first came out?
SPEAKER_01I always view things from my county and from what I would do. And I personally wouldn't have taken this case to try. With young men, people tend to you can tend to use that factor no matter the race in a conversation with a prosecutor and a judge to try to get a better understanding on hey, what kind of deal can we work out here? I've had 18-year-olds in our firm who've been accused of murder. So not necessarily in the similar facts, but just gruesome facts. And you can kind of get an idea for how the community would feel towards it and what's gonna happen. So when I first heard about it, I was like, there's no way this is gonna go to trial. We've had self-defense cases. Self-defense, first off, is very hard. It's very hard because it's exactly what it sounds like. It's a defense. It does not mean you didn't do what happened. And that's what some people forget about. A defense is used in trial. So if you're trying to convince a prosecutor that this is defense, they could always say, Okay, well then let the jury decide that. Let's let the jury decide was he able to use this defense or not. Now, of course, some police officers can plainly see what happened. Some prosecutors would be like, There's no reason for me to go forward on it. But when there is gray area, or just what one person would believe there was no reason for self-defense, then I mean you can't use it. Now when I first heard about this, you always you know you hear the stand your ground, you hear the oh, could they walk away? One of the easiest things to talk about in any jurisdiction in any case is whether or not somebody had the ability to walk away from a situation. And in this case, it seemed like he did. And just reading what they say occurred and how it occurred, that that's what I believe he had the ability to walk away.
SPEAKER_00Another thing about a tent. Yeah. It's not like you're trapped in a room where there's only one way in, one way out. You got pretty much any opening you want to take.
SPEAKER_01And I will say another thing though. Um walking away and how do I phrase it? I I'm not trying to be insensitive towards people or or their situations or what it may be. When I look at these situations, uh, I don't necessarily I I know race could play a factor into it, but it's not necessarily what I'm what I'm thinking. Like, but if he's being bullied by these people and he's doing it and and he's going through a lot, you still think of like, okay, how did it get to this point? Now you get to the other part of it, the aggression that someone's exhibiting. So if I punch you in Texas, you have you'll have an excuse for punching back. Now, if someone pulls a knife, then in theory, you have the right to use the same kind of force. But the person who initiated it cannot make the force higher. So if I get punched and then I stab you, that's not necessarily defense. But again, there are always different factors. Say somebody seven feet tall is trying to punch a woman who's four foot eleven, you that that force is a lot different. Now, she could have an argument to be made for using a knife. Does it necessarily mean she could do it? No. But there's an argument to be made. Now, again, if he's in this tent and someone is being aggressive towards him, someone pushes him, if he's he again, these are the facts that they they've given us, he's the one who pulls out the knife and he does it, then I mean, I don't believe self-defense is there. But I I I've and people may be like, why are you phrasing it in the way of like the facts they've given us? I've already, in my young career, have seen police lie. I won't say prosecutors. I I was see, I've seen things that aren't the way they are. If it wasn't for body cams, if it wasn't for other witnesses, um, things can always be misconstrued. So I'm just phrasing it in the way we've been told. We don't no one really knows what happens, uh granted, if there's not a video recording nowadays. Because people lie, people try to cover up the truth, people always do it, and that factors into it as well, too. So I'm going based strictly upon what they told us happened and what witnesses said happened. Now, again, if it was completely different, I mean, we don't have any way to substantiate that. So that's the problem here as well, too.
SPEAKER_00And it's gonna work against them because it's not like you were in a welcoming area. You were at a rival, from what I understand, these are rival teams. So that's the equivalent of a Redskins player coming over to the Cowboys bench and starting to fight and expecting any cowboy player over there to have his back. It's not gonna happen. You know, they're gonna back their own teammates. So, in in theory, even in court or whatever the case may be, they're gonna back their teammate that you know fell victim to this stabbing. So he's not gonna have a whole lot of help there. Um, you also have what's called, and I want to make sure I pronounce this right, but I think it's proportionality, uh, reasonable force. So what you talked about earlier, and this is how I've always interpreted it, was if two people are in a physical altercation, especially if like if I see you in the street and I start beating on you for no reason, and then you start beating me back and getting the better of me, at that point, I'll because I initiated this thing, I lose the right, like you said, to escalate it back higher. So in this situation, when he told him, touch me again and see what see what happens, and that's the phrase that kept popping up. So, you know, I I wasn't there, I don't know, but that's the phrase that kept being, you know, repeated was he said, touch me again and see what happens. So at that point, you're almost baiting that if because you know what you have and what you what you can do with what you have. So there is a a situation there where you're almost baiting someone to do something so you can react. Because, like you said, it does have to counteract with each other. No, you couldn't do that if it was too a man-on man, but like you explained in your situation, a woman would have a better argument. You can always argue, it doesn't mean you're gonna win it. But what what do you think about the whole baiting situation? Like that phrase to me kind of was very hard to overcome because that's almost like you're that's you can almost say that's premeditated to a certain degree.
SPEAKER_01And you you could, you could look at it that way. It's funny what juries tend to latch on to or what attorneys tend to use, because I would take an objective standpoint and be like, everybody, back up. Who hasn't been 1617? I was a hot-headed little boy. I'm sure there are people in this situation that were like being rude. I I don't think the phrase really is that deep. It could have just been something like, you push me, hey, don't hit me, you'll see what happens. And it wasn't it wasn't going far as thought of it. Now the reason people could be like, I think it was, is because he had a knife on him. Right. And they'd be like, look, but it doesn't even have to be that thought process. Look, guys, this is Texas. I have a gun in my desk right now. I have knives in my car. I I've seen little old ladies who are 90 years old with pistols on them, like, like, and I don't think they're walking around ready to kill somebody. It's just like that's kind of where we live and the mind frame that we're in. So it should he maybe he shouldn't have had it on him in school, maybe he shouldn't have been on it, but it doesn't necessarily mean, hey, I I told him that and I was ready to, but in the quick second where he was like, look, he pushed me. You know what? You're gonna see what happens, and then he thought about it, but I have a knife on me. Those two things don't even have to be like together, but it could be. So again, I would have pushed that away, but look, they're trying to get you to believe this was so premeditated. He looked if it was so premeditated, he could have killed him somewhere else. He could have, he, he could have could have killed him with no witnesses. He just he made a bad mistake. He shouldn't have taken it to where he should have. He did, and but uh, you know, and that's kind of getting into like that that's where you create that doubt in the jury's mind.
SPEAKER_00You can say this kid carried this knife every day for for the last two years. It just so happened this day in the situation that he found himself in, he used it. And those are the kind of things that you know, solicitors and and prosecutors will try to paint the jury to say he brought it this one time because he was looking for a reason to stab somebody. When in actuality the kids have been bringing it for the last two years because for whatever the reason.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that's not even the hardest part to get over. The hardest part to get over is he he shouldn't have brought it out.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01But it's easy. It like whenever you're you're in that mode, if they whenever they said it, they probably saw the jury's reaction and it clicked, and they were like, let's hammer it, let's hammer it in. And we I had a I had a detective recently where he admitted on the stand how poor of a job he did. And so I was like, okay, it that became my whole case. It was just like, I didn't even plan to go that route. But he said it changes everything that I was doing. He's the bad guy, he didn't do it. Like, how could they how if he's telling us it's such a crappy job, why are we here? We can't believe a word that was done. You know, so stuff like that. I mean, you just those kind of that just kind of happens in a trial.
SPEAKER_00So this this really, I think it went to trial in under a year or maybe slightly around, which is fairly quick. Um, if anybody's been involved in legal proceedings, especially this magnitude, it's not uncommon to see these things drag, and that can be for a multitude of reasons. I was involved in not necessarily a similar case in circumstances the way it happened, but a similar situation. And mine drug for a five-year period. Now, separately, mine went right through the middle of COVID, which added to a lot of the drag. They weren't even doing in-person court interviews and things like that. But the what my lawyer told me was like, if you're good and you're able to maintain a decent life while this is going on, then it's always better if it can drag. Because in those time periods, you know, evidence can get lost. Not necessarily that we needed it in my case, but evidence can get lost. People move, people change jobs, and in some cases, people die and pass away. And then people can get caught up in corruption cases, which damages credibility for anything, whether that be the cop, detective, or whatever the case may be. There's all sorts of things that can happen to help you, which is a lot of times why these trials will take two and three years after the first initial thing to finally come to fruition. Why do you think this went to court so fast?
SPEAKER_01And I was just about to ask, that's why it was strange to me. I this was out of Dallas County, right?
SPEAKER_00I think so.
SPEAKER_01If it's Dallas, we do I again, I'm seven hours from Dallas, and we have a case that it doesn't look like it's going to trolley anytime soon. So it makes me wonder who was the force pushing this to go, because with a case like this, I would not have wanted the media to I think I think it was Collin County, but uh I would not have wanted the media to influence it. But I think I think his defense wanted that. I think they thought if we have enough political pressure, if we have enough pressure, uh if we use all the cards we can, maybe it will turn in our favor. But what I I mean, one, we can see who our president is right now. We can see like there's still a huge divide. I would have wanted as much time to pass for people to forget about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So for it not to feel like, oh man, like we need to make this decision now. No, guys, we need to make the decision that's best for everybody and look at everything without hey, these these lenses on and give this guy justice. Well, I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just saying that's typically what happens, especially in murders, because they are the longer cases, they have the most witnesses, they have the most evidence. I mean, down here it's taking about three to four years to try a case. I mean, we have about 600 cases, so we still have trials constantly, but I mean, it still takes forever to get one to actually go.
SPEAKER_00And it seems like, and you correct me if I'm wrong, you're the attorney, but if it seems like when you do let time gaps like that go, people are gonna forget the exact sequence of events that happened that day. So as your job as an attorney, you can be like, well, wait a minute. Your initial statement on the day of, you said, you know, you ate McDonald's at 2.30 and then you went here, but now you're saying you left McDonald's at 3.30. Well, what's going on here? You know, are you even credible? So it gives you a little bit more leeway to to start poking holes and stuff.
SPEAKER_01That's exactly right. I mean, that's exactly right. That's that's what uh one of the things we use. Right.
SPEAKER_00It's just yeah, that that going to trial that quick to me, like you was a mistake. It was very hot in the press. I'm like you, a lot of times you want these things to die down. Now, I can also put myself in issues. I went through five years. That was five years of hell. I mean, to me, you know, I'm balled up under this hat, believe it or not, at one at one time I had hair. Um, so that was a really, really stressful time for me. It's like getting knowing you say you went to the doctor to find out if you got terminal cancer, and they say, hey, we'll give you a call back and let you know, and the phone never rings for five years. And you every day wonder when that phone call is going to come and what the prognosis is. So it is stressful, but at the same time, you're also free, you're also out. He could have graduated in some degree, whether it was homeschooled or whatever, and then if it did get a resolution that was better for him, he can continue his life and and whatever the case may be. Um, I think going that early was definitely a mistake on his part and his legal team.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I completely agree. I completely agree. And now, I mean, we can even get into the the race race aspect of it towards the jury.
SPEAKER_00That's exactly where I was going next because I can tell you one thing black, white, indifferent, I know that if I'm taking this guy's case, and I already know this is gonna cause a racial divide. I never had to go to trial in my case. You correct me if I'm wrong, but is 12 jurors a split six and six, right? Don't you have a say in the sixth that's gonna be for or it's not necessarily like that.
SPEAKER_01So what happens is say you have a hundred people. We both put on presentations and we ask people, will you be biased? It's more of a deselection process. So we have a set amount of strikes to get them out, but also uh there are gonna be people that raise their hand and say, I'm gonna be biased. You're out. Then you have your strikes to get the people you don't want on the jury out, and then they have their strikes to get the people they don't want the jury out, and then whoever's Left the first 12 people are the ones chosen. So you don't get to choose the 12 people.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01But from what my understanding in this one, if if my understanding is correct, is all pretty much all the black people in this case said they could they could not be biased, they were going to be biased. Like they were going to be biased. So they're out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you're going to go out. So that's just like people that don't want to get jury duty. You say something crazy like that, you're going to get bounced out of the case quick.
SPEAKER_01So then all you have left are the people who say that. And if they happen to be white, your jury's white. Now, I would not have had trial in this county.
SPEAKER_00I would do for a change of venue.
SPEAKER_01Everything I could to try to change the venue because of the celebrity of this case. I mean, you were hearing about it all the time. It was just, I just, and I don't know if they did. I don't know if they tried, but I would have done everything I could to because it just it didn't seem like he was going to be able to have one, a fair one. Either side was going to be able to have a fair one in this in this area.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I'll be honest, they went through the case. I think it took a roughly a week. Um, there was a lot of, I ain't gonna say new stuff. It was pretty much the stuff you'd heard before, but apparently there was a video that still hasn't been released to the public yet. From what I understand, even that wasn't clear. Because, you know, I hear you hear so much misinformation. You know who Charleston White is? Yes. That dude is a media whore. Um, like he will flip to whatever side is gonna get him to clicks because in the beginning he was against Carmel Anthony, called him a thug and all this and that. Then he flipped and was against the Metcalf. So these boys knew karate and jujitsu. And like to start with, that don't even matter. Like, even if they did, that has no relevance to the case. Um, anything out people want to pull up other things like that. It might be brought up in history, but it's got no relevance to the actual facts at hand. But then he flip-flop again from them, like back against the Anthony family. So I think he's just going for whatever gets the clicks.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, that's what all people do. It's so bad on my Facebook since a lot of what we do for helmet trading is on Facebook. Yep. I I don't know what our own president says is true or not. I have to go because someone will post what our president says, and I'm like, is it true? And I don't even like him. I'm like, I don't know which side, like I'm like, I'm not I'm liberal, but uh it's Texas liberals are very different. I always tell people that because you're like, you own a gun, I'm for gun rights, I'm for all these things, and they're like, Yeah, but like Texas is just different, but not the point. Um so when they post something, I have to go Google and then I have to do a separate search to see if it'll take me to like his Twitter or TikTok to see if this is what actually occurred, and then I have to watch the video, which nobody nobody wants to do that. Right. They want what happened, and they want to be given that information in the way they can easily digest, and then they're gonna go from it. And that and then we're all supposed to just rely on that. And I'm like, guys, just take the extra steps if you really care that much. Do not come on any platform telling me, yes, this is it, because I can tell you, like, I I've never liked a president, I've never agreed with all of the things they do. I don't care who it was or what it was, and that's been since I I've I've since I was a little kid, I had issues with presidents. I mean, I was seven years old talking about like, I think Al Gore would be a better president than Bush. And they were just like, but he's from Texas, and I was like, doesn't matter to me at all. It's like, guys, I like, I like, I like what he's saying more. And they're like, no, yeah, and believe me, Texas, we we are very proud. We I don't care what it is, we we usually stick to our own, but still, I'm like, well, if this is for everybody else, I mean, it didn't affect me most of the time, so this is what I believe. But people don't want to take that extra step to figure out, is this true? I mean, we live in an age where it used to be older people who were being misguided with information. Now it's everybody.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because somebody will take a meme and put somebody's face up and slap a quote on it that they probably never said, and before you know it, that thing has spread like wildfire all over. That's why you get all these fake deaths and fake hopes of people that's passing away that's still very much alive. That people literally have to go on their own Twitters and say, guys, I'm still alive. Yeah. Because these things spread so much like wildfire, where people won't do that extra step and and dig in and see, like you said, go to True Social or go to Trump's Twitter and see if he actually did say that, because hell, who knows what he says or tweets half the time. Because a lot of it could very well come from him. Yeah. I think that probably adds a little bit of more fuel to the fire, especially in his case. But I do think this case went pretty quick. Now, I'll be honest, I picked him to be guilty. Um, I did not think they were gonna be able to overcome that. Did you look very deep into his lawyer at all? Because from what I understand, he was a public defender that went into his own practice. I don't know if they chose the best lawyer, especially with all the money that they did receive and the gifts and go.
SPEAKER_01I haven't I don't know who to believe. It's like we just talked about. I there's not gonna be really any good like accurate information on money, how it gets to it, where it goes. It's gonna be hard because anybody reporting on that, his family's not gonna give up their bank records. Right. And there's gonna be no legal reason for someone, unless they sue them, to figure out what happened to the money, how it got, where it was divided, or what happened with that. One thing we do know is that a lot of money was raised.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01That's the one thing we do know is a lot of money was raised, and I would have expected uh more people to be on his case.
SPEAKER_00Me too.
SPEAKER_01Uh, but again, I don't know. I don't know the guy since I'm not from that area. I don't know the guy. Maybe he was the best one in the area. Um I can I can tell you, like, like in my case, like my father-in-law is a great lawyer. If somebody asked me, like, who's the best lawyer in your area and will he need more help? I would actually tell you, he doesn't need any help. Don't hire other people because they're gonna, he's it's gonna frustrate him because he does things a certain way. And and then because there's, I mean, lawyers tend to all be like, I'm the head of the pack, I gotta do this. And if somebody else has just as much say, it could end poorly. So I don't know in terms of his legal team what would have happened, but I would just imagine, just because of the the money, there would have been more people involved.
SPEAKER_00Me too. And you know, again, I hate to I hate to take it back to race, but if you're trying to get this kid off, sometimes you got to play the card you're dealt or play the hand you're dealt. You have dealt, you know, your hand has a lot of racial issues with it. You would think you would have gotten a highly prominent African-American lawyer to help, you know, with this case, to be on this case, kind of like OJ did with um with Johnny Cochrane.
SPEAKER_01Um it's tough. It's tough. It's tough. I it goes both ways. Are you gonna like are you gonna go? I'm gonna make these uh jurors feel guilt, feel white guilt from send sending sending this this kid. Or are they gonna say, wow, this guy clearly is racist. He probably had racial undertones too, didn't like the white kid, stabbed like there's so many ways race is so hard to figure out what's gonna play, especially if they're almost there, if there are no black jurors, you did all this and you have this face, and it didn't work out in the way you want it to. Now, I I don't know the county, I don't know the demographics. I'm sure there are prominent uh black attorneys there, but um maybe that's who they felt comfortable with, and they probably thought it paired well. A black kid, white uh white attorney, you know, whatever it may be. And that that that always goes into it. Like again, when I when I was hired in that case, uh, we have Mexican attorney, old white man accused of selling drugs, Mexican judge, and then I had the jurors. I try to put as many uh people on there who may relate to us. You can't put you can't choose someone based on race. So that that's that and that's gonna be one of the appeals on like they deselected or selected or try to get out all the black people or whoever it may be, because you can't that can't be the thing. Can't be women, you can't choose because of their gender or their race. So those those are gonna be things that they say, like, oh no, he was white, he was black, you know, whatever it is, that's why we didn't want him. So, but I I don't really know in terms of it, but again, it would have been an uphill battle, no matter what. I s I would have really, I want, I would have liked to know, which we don't we won't get to know, what the what were the plea bargains?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, was there one offer? Did they completely deny? Because unfortunately, when you get in those situations, whether you like it or not, a plea bargain may be the best option, which is why a lot of these cases do end in in plea bargains.
SPEAKER_0199% of cases.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, if you don't think you have a good outlook and you're looking at 25 to life, and somebody says, you know, cut you a deal for 10, that's less than half your time with the possibility of maybe getting out at some point, he would still be a fairly young man. You have to weigh that. You have to weigh that, you know, in the balance. So I would be interested to see if that was offered. Let's get to the sentencing portion. I did pick him to be guilty, but I was thinking 15 to life, me personally. Uh, or somewhere around there. I did not expect 35 years. Do you think the sentencing was fair, a little bit over harsh? Where do you land on that?
SPEAKER_01Oh, man, that was tough. And I just talked to my I talked to my wife about this today. Not about this case, about another case. Um, and then the murders we've dealt with and jurors we've talked to. The the obvious response is what if this happened to your child? And this was a I mean, this was a child, these were both children, um, and this happened to them, how much time would be enough? There's not an amount, first off. There's not. Second, um most would feel 35 is not enough. Now, then you get into the opposite argument that why do two people's lives have to be ruined from this? Like, why can't we see that he goes through this, he's found guilty of it, his life will forever be changed from it. Why not give him an opportunity to come out at a livable age and still be able to contribute to society? What is the real goal here? Um, so it goes both ways. I don't know. That's the that's the that's the obvious response. I murder, I used to work for the Innocence Project, and we had people write in. And I've seen anyone from nine years on a murder charge guilty to life all through Texas, all through different factors, and it's tough, it really is to figure out what what is I mean, that that it's not the highest it could have been. And I've seen jurors say, Well, we think this guy would have lived till like the the age of life is 78 years for men. So we subtracted, we gave him 60 years for it. So we wanted him to be in there for every year that he would have been alive. So people look at a lot of different things. Um realistically, he'll probably get out in like 17 years, so put him around his 30s. Um as long as he stays out of trouble, and I don't again, I don't know because his his life is different. Like he will be known there. He his it it'll be very tough for him no matter where he goes. Yeah. Um so and they'll know he has money. That's another thing that people don't think about. He's gonna have money in prison, and that matters in prison.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you can I mean it it does, but it also makes you a target too. Yep. Exactly what I mean.
SPEAKER_01I mean, he's gonna have so he could get paces in prison because of it, just just trying to survive. So if he stayed out of trouble completely 17 years, but he could do the whole 35 because he can't.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, people don't understand. If you have money and you go to prison and people know it, like obviously people aren't necessarily, I don't think, gonna the level of money is different, right? Like, I don't think anybody's pressing Diddy in prison right now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, but Diddy probably, but again, Diddy has so much that so much money.
SPEAKER_00You got so much money, your life is a lot more comfortable. That's why a lot of the old school gangsters never really did hard time. They might have done a time, but it wasn't hard time. When they know you have some money, then you get pressed for, you know, protection rackets and all this. I mean, they could, you know, if whoever, whatever gang in there could uh we'll protect you in here, but we need X amount a month, you know, sent from your family because they know we got the money. And that essentially makes you a target in jail. It's happened a lot. I've talked to a lot of people that that's went through throughout my time in doing this. Um interesting stuff. What do you think before we get on to the next case that kind of paralleled and was very close to this one that a lot of people compared it to? What do you think his chances are on this appeal?
SPEAKER_01Unless there's something that we just don't know about, uh which it's always hard. How are you gonna find that the prosecutors really did uh get out all the black jurors because of it? Like uh, you know, there's certain things that most people's first appeals, second appeals, third appeals don't get approved. There may be something later on that for whatever reason should have been disclosed and wasn't disclosed. He was trying to get away, he was getting beat up, the someone of the kids feels guilty, comes out later and says, like, we were actually beating him up, and then he stabbed us. And even two guys on one is uh a different scenario completely.
SPEAKER_00So if it was two on one, then you've got a way better chance of getting him off on top of the training.
SPEAKER_01I can't I'm a skinny kid. I gotta I I was worried, these kids have already been mean to me. Like, you know, it's a it's a whole situation. But again, we as it stands right now, no, I don't I I don't see it.
SPEAKER_00I don't see his I don't see it being successful for him anyway. Um like you said too, it is this whole thing, I think people get lost and and caught up in the details and the race divide and all that, but it is unfortunate that two lives is basically shattered now. Um the lives of their families. I mean, like the Metcalfs have lost a son. The brother basically had to watch his one brother die. The Anthony family have now lost their son to prison for God knows how many years, and I don't know which one is worse, knowing you have a son that would never grow up and experience life and graduate and you know become a father and maybe get married, or one that you know never gonna get those things because he's in incarcerated, and God knows, that's probably not gonna be, like we said, an easy road. So both families are gonna be dealing with the grief of this situation that I feel could have been avoided easily. Um at the end of the day, people want to say, well, it was raining, he could be up under the tent. I'll get my ass wet and walk to another tent before I try to put myself in a situation like this. And hopefully this will be a cautionary tale to you know not try to escalate this thing in anybody from anybody's point going forward. This is the type of situation you could have. An easy, easily diffusible situation has now ruined two lives forever.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, and I want to tell young people out there, look, I I get it. I've been in some very bad situations at a very young age, which my life could have been completely changed. I've had people bring out guns in situations where they shouldn't have. Um, and I'm an attorney now, you know, so it's like never went to jail, never been to jail. But one bad decision can completely change your life. And it's not something most of us haven't lived through. You know, it's just, you know, it's just the cards you're dealt, and it's also the decisions you continue to make. Because if this wasn't the first time in his life that he'd been put in a bad situation and he didn't learn from it, I mean that's something you have to do. And that's race aside. I I have my brother who is black who came down here and he was he was raised in Dallas, and he told me living in the valley, I was like, Man, you need to be careful when you're out at parties and stuff, you know, people are crazy. He's like, Dallas, I don't have to worry about gun violence here. And I was like, What? I didn't I never thought about that. What do you mean? He's like, they don't just shoot people here, and I was just like, Oh, he's like, Yeah, like people get mad, and you can go to a party and they they'll shoot you. And he, I was like, Oh, well, yeah. I mean, he's like, Yeah, I can get beat up here, but like it's much easier to think. I was like, man, like you never know. You never know the things people go through, you never know what someone's life was. You never I mean, especially if you're not living it. So only thing you can control is what you do.
SPEAKER_00So one of the things I did want to get into, I mentioned to you about this case. I don't know if you're familiar with it or not, but it was a case that's actually really close to me. So I'm in Charleston, South Carolina, about an hour and a half up the road, Gamecock country. Uh if you got any helmets from former Gamecock players back there in your collection, um uh there was a situation that had kind of I think ended right before this um trial began. And it was a man by the name of Rick Chow, who him and his son had chased down what is what was perceived to be a shoplifter by the name of Cyrus Carmack Belton. Now, originally this one was really tough for me to kind of decipher. And I'm I'm going, not that I have a law degree, but again, the the situation that I was in, I'm always going to look at a lot of the facts, right? From the best that I can see in the surveillance tapes, the owner of this store confronts this kid because he thought he was stealing merchandise. I believe a bottle of water to be exact. The kid does, when he's at the door, it shows him like he puts it in his pocket almost like to hold it while he's still shopping, but then he winds up putting them back. Well, when he's confronted, he's showing him he doesn't have anything, and then finally the kid leaves and he takes off. Now, if I if I'm wrong on these facts, people can point it out in the comments.
SPEAKER_01That's what's what I've heard so far, too.
SPEAKER_00Um he takes off. So at this point, the store owner and his son gives chase. They chase this kid 130 yards. Now, again, to the football reference, uh a football field is a hundred yards. He went above and beyond that. Um, that is a long way to chase somebody, folks. That is definitely off your property. You lose a lot of leeway in what you do when you're off your property in situations like this. There was, from the best that I can understand, the kid did have a gun. He tripped, he fell, whether he actually drew the weapon to use it, whether it came out. I'm not 100% sure on, but allegedly what happened here is Chow's son seen it, yelled, he's got a gun. Rick returned, or not returned fire, but Rick used his weapon, fired, and killed the guy, the kid. So to me, that's really difficult, right? You got a lot of things at play. You're accusing them of stealing and they didn't steal. They leave. At that point, you're kind of like, at the end of the day, it's a bottle of water. You know, you're not talking, they didn't rob a cash register. But you gave Chase and you chased him 130 yards off the property. Number one, something don't smell right to me, that this kid, this old man was, if you looked at this guy, he I don't see him keeping up 130 yards down the down the road. Right? That to me doesn't pass the smell test right off the rip to be close enough to be able to fire a shot off of this kid. Then how do you see this playing out with the self-defense? Because to me, that could have gone either way, because at that point, I my opinion, Chow and his son are now the aggressor in this situation. And you're you use the gun. But the fact that the kid had a gun and it came out, does that instance change the whole thing?
SPEAKER_01So this is what we just talked about. Well, one, I think this is a completely different scenario. I don't think there's any comparison between the two of these. And I see why people are wanting to, because they're like one, two different states, different laws and different views. And also, hell, I think race probably would have played more of a factor in this one than in the other case. Because why did you chase someone this long? Like, was it because you were tired? Like, I were you tired of black people in your store stealing? Like, why did like was this the straw that broke the camel's back? Like, what did you why did you go this far? Secondly, I mean I mean, his team must have done a hell of a job because on the outside looking in, it doesn't look like he could have used self-defense because again, if we were just talked about different scenarios to be put into, you ran. So you're aggressor. You are the aggressor. He wasn't aggressive towards you, you are the aggressor. He falls, or even if he reaches, you have a gun on you. And if if you have guns, you know, okay, if he Had to you had to have in my mind, you had to have it drawn. Yeah. Because if you are gonna have the time and he has the time to point it and shoot, and you were gonna pull it and sh no, unless this guy's at the the just training every day, which I don't know. No, how did you beat him? In my mind, uh the only thing that makes sense is you ran after this guy with a gun and shot him, and luckily he had a gun on him. And again, I don't I don't I don't know that your laws and if he could have had a gun on him. And if he could have, what's the issue?
SPEAKER_00Other than the fact that I think he was underage.
SPEAKER_01Um if he's underage, he couldn't have one, so he look, he's not allowed to have a gun on him.
SPEAKER_00But I'll fight a gun charge and still be living any day of the week.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so but in my opinion, I I don't I don't I think he should have been guilty. I mean that's kind of I think he should have been guilty. And that's that's even if the guy turns around and pulls a gun on him because you have a gun on you. So the way I would have and the only in my mind, the only logical way they could have framed it is again how they did. They he had a gun, and then I pulled my gun out. I just we just both happened to have guns. It just doesn't feel right because the younger kid with the gun didn't get a shot off, didn't get to shoot you. And I there they have been, I did read one report where they said no, he was shooting. He was shooting at them. And again, okay, now that that that kind of because then we get into like he escalated it, but then the opposite comes up. Did he escalate it? Because there are two people chasing him down, one with a gun.
SPEAKER_00I I always I told people from the very beginning, if if I'm that kid and I turn around and I pop both of these guys and put them down, I would be the first one on the lines advocating for that kid to not be charged because you were wrongfully harassed in that store. You were chased 130 yards by two people, and to me, you were within every right, because at that point you are fearing for your life. It is two people. You may or may not know they have a gun. I don't know the situation, but I think had he shot them, I think he would have had a good chance of walking. In my opinion, he's still gonna have to fight it, but he'd have to fight, and it would have been tough.
SPEAKER_01It still would have been tough, but I think he would have had a better reason than these because like again, it's not one person, it's two. This is a kid and he's running after. I mean, who wouldn't be scared? Like, I don't care if he's a big kid, I'm like, you have two people, and again the the guy had a gun on him. Chow had a gun on him, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So the kid was right to be scared. Well, and we say that, right? I've I've reviewed this case, and I have a theory. I have a theory that Chow's son may have been the shooter, and Chow took the charge. Because again, I just you know, not to be stereotypical, I don't know how fast a man like that can run at his age. He doesn't look like he's a he's no John Wick, folks. If you look at some some pictures of this guy, um I think the son could have very well been the shooter, and Chow took the gun and took the charge and and went to trial because there was no witnesses to say anything to the contrary. And I actually looked and they only did ballistic testing on the gun to see if the gun they had was the one that fired. They didn't even GSR. They didn't GSR?
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_00They didn't even GSR Chow.
SPEAKER_01That's standard here. A lot of the like they they usually GSR everyone here in a murder.
SPEAKER_00In my case, they didn't even GSR me. So I I had I admitted to doing the the shooting in the self-defense situation, so I mean I don't know if they really needed to.
SPEAKER_01So it could have probably been the same thing here where they were like, look, he admitted to it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, now they did take my gun, and I'm sure they did ballistics testing and everything. So that could have been maybe that was why, you know, but still I was the only other person involved. There's nobody else to talk to. Here you got two other people to chase this kid, and that's you probably should have maybe done some testing just to see.
SPEAKER_01And I I I don't think people realize even at close range, like close if you're not if you don't actively go out and shoot, shooting someone moving is hard. But shooting someone from a distance is even harder. I I watch gun uh TikToks where like at like 50 yards on a handgun is if you're not trained, it is damn near impossible. Honestly, I'll say that. For someone who is not trained from 50 yards to hit a target. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, it's very hard. It's very hard. And if you look at li from what the best case I was trying to make out of it, does it look like he tripped at one point, came out of his shoe, was continued to be chased, tripped again, and from what I was kind of making out was at that point the gun came out. Now, came out as in he drew it out and used it, or came out and like fell out of his pants, or whatever the case may be. That's where I'm kind of lost on the specifics. So if it's a point to where Chow or the son was chasing him, he falls, the gun comes out, the kid turns around and looks back at the gun that fell out of his pocket and maybe goes to go for it. They don't give him that chance, they shoot. At that point, too, if you're the last person there and you fire a shot that essentially killed him, you can you know come up with whatever story you want at that point.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But again, I want to I want to tell people out there too, like again, we we're just grasping at straws, especially on this one.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because I feel like the only reason this one even got attention was because of how close it was to the other cases.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01This probably would have flown under the radar and no one would have paid attention to it if it would be.
SPEAKER_00I didn't know anything about the shooting itself. I just got this news and it was thrust upon you know all the social medias as the result of him being found not guilty. I didn't even know about the shooting an hour and a half away.
SPEAKER_01So that proves my point, where it's just like, okay, it's because of this, it that's how this one all came about. Guys, y'all don't understand not everything can come in at trial. So we don't know what they were told, and we don't know how they got to that point. I mean, that's just the way the law works. Just because something should come in doesn't mean it's going to, if there's not proper procedure, if there's no way to verify it. So again, if if and if there's enough of that reasonable doubt and and you can create it, maybe they just didn't have enough information to convict them. Yeah. So and that's that's where a lot of this comes out, too. I mean, who knows what they the jury was actually told.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and a lot of times that's exactly right. You'd be surprised at what you feel would be really important to bring into a court and submit as evidence that gets suppressed that they don't allow you for whatever the reason. I mean, that that's is that up to the judge essentially to make that call whether it's admissible to the court, or who who makes that final say?
SPEAKER_01Yes. But I mean, there's a lot of law behind it to where um they have that option. Well, not even option. Some would say like they have a duty to withhold it if something was done improperly. Because then who knows how how can it be verified? So that's what comes out sometimes.
SPEAKER_00Interesting stuff, man. I'm down here in the Carolinas. I don't know, did you follow the Murdaw trials that went on? Yeah, I did.
SPEAKER_01I forget I didn't see the the stuff. I don't know why he was released now.
SPEAKER_00Well, he's not released, his murder charge just got overturned.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't know, yeah. I don't know why he why it was overturned now, but I just saw that it was overturned.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I mean he he's still gonna be in jail for quite a while on the financial card.
SPEAKER_01On the financial stuff, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it's not like he's walking free. He did get overturned on the murder charge. I don't even know the specifics of why. Um now that that actually brought me up. I was gonna close with this question. So that actually brings up an interesting point to where if they wanted to retry him, they could go after him this time with the death penalty. The first time they did not. Um and typically a retrial usually favors the defense, if I'm not mistaken. Usually got a better chance as a defense. But either either way, you're opening yourself up back to with that being on the table. Even if he wins it, he I don't see him being alive to get out of prison from his financial stuff, me, me personally. So I don't really know what the w, I mean, it was a win, I guess, maybe justifiably, maybe just in your honor that you say you didn't kill your wife and your kid. I don't I don't know what you can hang your hat on. But the question that I had for you about that is there was numerous documentaries put out on Netflix, Hulu, HBO Max. I think every damn major outlet had a deep dive documentary on this whole situation before he went to trial while he was, and some kind of I think I watched it while the trial was going on. And like, how would you not, as a juror, I know you're not supposed to look at stuff like this, right? If you're in the jury, you're not supposed to look at this, but the the likelihood of somebody not flipping on Netflix if you're sequestered in a hotel room for three or four months and not watching this damn thing is highly unlikely. How would that not be influential to a jury seeing this already on Netflix and you're doing the to me? That was a little dicey. What's your take on that? And we can wrap up with that question.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's kind of well, let me uh first go to the pride aspect of it. Uh, you stated maybe he just got the the moral overturn for that. But you know what? Uh it's it may not even be that. It's the ability to be paroled. Yeah. So his financial crimes, he probably will be have the ability to be paroled a lot easier and a lot quicker than the murder.
SPEAKER_00Um, so that could that change his prison as well? Could that change the prison he's at? Because now it would be more, would financial be more fed? Because he's a good thing.
SPEAKER_01Well, now it's still well, I don't know who how which one he was convicted in. I think it was still convicted in the the state one. Um, so it would it shouldn't change it drastically, but in Texas, I mean they just send you where they send you, and they do have different levels of it. So uh if it was a federal. But I mean, you'd be surprised even murderers. Uh like I said, my cousin's in prison, and I talked to him. Uh his uh he murderers don't always tend to be the most violent people in prison. It's it's young people. The young people, I don't care if they're in there on a weed charge compared to someone who's been in there 20 years. They that's that's their home. The guy who's gonna be in there a week is gonna cause a lot of ruckus in there. So they tend to they tend to be the more aggressive people. So you never know where who's gonna be the one. But um, back on to the question our justice system really is on the back of people being honest, all the way from when they first get put on a jury saying, Can I be biased? Can I not be biased? Um to throughout a trial when they say, I'm not gonna do this. That's all we can really go upon. We we like unless we really go into like a whole computerized situation or we start putting people in, which we never will because it'd be too expensive, like a whole separate housing to keep them away from people for those two weeks, three months, four months in this case, it's just not feasible for every single trial that people have to go through. So, really, you just rely on people's good nature and words of being honest, and that's all we really can do. But sometimes that's why later on it'll come out hey, actually, I was doing it, and it did prejudice me to feel this way about him. And man, now he now he has an option for an appeal, you know, something of that nature. I don't really know of a better way though, because of it. And I mean, but you'd be surprised at people who end up on jurors, juries and the jurors that we have, how honest they really are. Like, people will be like, No, I'm not gonna do it. And of course, I'm sure people sneak through there, um, even as an attorney, and I'm I'm saying, like, hey, are you gonna be biased? And the person's face is like, Yeah, I'll be biased. No, the fuck you won't. No, you won't. You will not be biased. You're out of here, get out of here. I'll not keep you on. But but a lot of people be like, no, I I can't do it. Like, even in like murder cases or statutory cases that we deal with, like it, like people be like, I've had some some someone like that in my family, and I I can't I can't be honest. So a lot of it is just relying strictly on them and their good nature.
SPEAKER_00That's a that's a tough ass in this day and time, because I gotta tell you, if I'm on that jury and I'm way, I'm I'm probably gonna watch it. I ain't gonna lie to you. I'm gonna log into somebody else's Netflix account and I'm gonna I'm gonna take a peek. And it doesn't it didn't paint them in a very good light. Uh neither one of them documentaries did on it on any of those things. So who knows? And personally, I think had the had the Snapchat not come out that put him there at the dog kennels, I don't think they were mounting a good enough case to to convict him for that. Yeah, they and they were still struggling with that. With that. I mean I don't think he was a shooter. I really don't. I do think he knows who did it. Me personally, I don't think he was a shooter, but I think he knows.
SPEAKER_01I don't it's such a weird case. It is and you know what? He's not a good guy. No, he's not that's the hardest part of it. Like you were making millions of dollars and still stealing from people, so you're not a good guy. You're out partying, you're out doing all these things. People very easily could believe you're a murderer. That's kind of where that and that you've led people down that path to believe that kind of stuff about you. I mean, what do you do? And then it's like you get out for murder, and you you still did so much crap that like you're not gonna get out. Yeah, you know, like so. I mean, it is kind of one of those, like, even if you didn't do it, like you're still such a bad person that like they shouldn't let you out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and they'll think that like, well, he might not have done this, but I'm sure he did something else in the past. That uh we've interviewed a ton of mob guys on the show, and a lot of times that's always the case. As a matter of fact, I interviewed the former mayor of Las Vegas, uh Oscar Goodman, who was the basically the mob attorney. You ever seen the movie Casino? So he represented all those guys in the movie casino: the real Anthony Spilotra, the real Luffy Rosenthal, even Frank Deanal Barboza, um, a lot of big name people. Even a guy, I don't know if you ever heard of him, but he had a brother that was a high uh powered attorney, Jimmy Chagra. He was a really prolific drug trafficker out of Texas. Um, yeah, look into him, just kind of see his background. Jimmy Chagra was a drug smuggler or uh a drug king fan, if you want to classify that. His brother was, I think his brother was, I forgot his brother's name. His brother was a high-powered attorney. He wound up getting killed. But they charged Jimmy Chagra with the murder of a federal judge. Uh the judge name was Federal Judge John Wood. Now, the guy that they say Chagra hired was a man named Charles Harrelson. You probably don't know Charles Harrelson, but you're very familiar with his son because he's a high-profile actor named Woody Harrelson. Woody Harrelson's dad was allegedly a hitman for the mob. And he went to trial and lost and got convicted for that murder. But Oscar got Jimmy off for being the one that hired him. And there's a Barbara Walters interview with Woody where he talks about it because he doesn't talk about it much. And he's like, he said, Look, my father's no saint, but the what he's in jail for he didn't do, and he was like, it's even more proven that the man that supposedly hired my father was acquitted of the charge. So he's like, if you acquit the man of hiring him, why wouldn't you acquit the man that allegedly did it? Which I mean is a valid argument to a point. Doesn't necessarily mean he didn't do it, but he's got an argument. Yeah. But yeah, that's a that's an interesting tie-in. But Jimmy was from Texas. He was uh he was a really interesting guy if you look into his background. They said he used to come into Vegas and just throw like two or three suitcases up there and be like, you know, give me a million in chips, and they would say, Well, Mr. Chagger, it was 1.3, and he's like, All right, give me that up amongst your people. Like that was just the kind of money that he had. He bought out a whole I interviewed his son. His son said he literally bought out a whole damn development and like bought all the houses, give all the houses to people that was in his crew, people that he knew, and he had like the last house on the block. That way he would have plenty of time to know if the cops were trying to storm into the neighborhood. There was only one entrance to the to the whole neighborhood. He's a he was a very prolific guy, but not in a violent way. Like just that he was almost one of them guys that you kind of rooted for, so to speak, under, you know, undertone, you know, Robin Hood type guy, you know. But yeah, interesting cat. Look him up, Jimmy Chauger, uh from Texas. His brother wound up unfortunately getting killed, but his brother was a high-profile attorney, which kept him out of a lot of trouble. And then when his brother died, he contacted Oscar to be his attorney, and Oscar got him out. But Oscar's a very interesting individual as well. Lawyers always have good stories, so I'm glad uh we could have you on and shed some light on this.
SPEAKER_01It never they never end. They never end. I mean, and you you're like, oh, like, how does someone because I take quarter-point cases, I people hire me, and you're like, oh, okay. Uh so well, that quarter pointing case, you may not think like, wow, what am I really gonna get? But some of the stuff that like the world or have whatever you believe in the high power gives you, and you're like, oh my goodness. And then you can also see there are different levels of people. Yeah. And I mean like yes, like what we all agree, like on child cases, those are the worst of the worst type people, but those are not the scariest type people. Because then you meet people and you see like the dead eyes that people talk about. Yeah, you see even the scary, which dead eyes, like say you're dealing with people, like people in the cartel have tried to hire me, and I don't I don't get into that. I'm like, no, I I'm not I'm not gonna do it. And you know, it was actually never from this area, it was actually from another area, and they were like, hey, they want to do like some kind of phone call. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, thank you. Um and that's still less scary than the guy who really, if you didn't have all the evidence in front of you, would believe he was telling the truth and believes he's telling the truth, like he's telling you something, and he's just like, I didn't do this. I didn't kill these people, I didn't dismember these people, and you're just like, Yeah, man, like you're a good guy. I met your family, I know everything about you, and then you start going through the evidence of them actually finding it on him and f and you're just like what like he talks to you and you believe him, like because you wonder how like the the the serial killers could come off and be the way they are and kill as many people as they could until you start to run into people that are like they're psychopaths, they're sociopaths, they just they can completely be cut off from that feeling and they can lie to you straight in their face, and and you believe them.
SPEAKER_00100%. You meet a lot of strange characters. I I interview some strange characters, so it's uh you know, to have that to have that dynamic of people. I mean, I've interviewed people that's you know, kill multiple people, especially in the you know, the gang life, the mobsters, former mobsters. And you know, they look at it as if like it was no different than going to war. Like they people knew what the stakes were, they knew this was part of the game. He's like, I wouldn't go and kill a random store owner because I needed, you know, a hundred bucks out of his register. He's like, but in this it was a territory thing or it was a beef thing, or they knew they were gonna get killed if they didn't do the you know, strike first. And you know, situations like with John Gotti and Paul Castellano, John Gotti had a feeling that if Paul heard the tapes that was gonna out him and his crew for being drug deals, doing drug deals because the mob allegedly didn't allow those types of things that Paul was gonna have them taken out. So John struck first and he killed Paul. Uh a lot of them say that it was more or less of a do or die type thing. You know, it was in for me. But it is nonetheless, it definitely is an interesting conversation. Um, Dallas, what firm do you work for? Shout out your businesses, any social medias you got before we get out of here.
SPEAKER_01I'm attorney Dallas, I think on TikTok and Instagram. I work for my own firm. I also work with my father-in-law, so they're the Via Lobos Law Firm. My firm is the Dallas Gutierrez Law Firm, and we do everything: car accidents, civil cases. I predominately do a lot of criminal cases, but I got some divorces that I'm going through, and I always tell people, you can hire me for them. I hate them. I hate them. You will never be lied to as much as you are by a criminal as you are by people getting a divorce. They are the most dishonest people I've ever encountered. And they're like, Really? I'm like, a criminal will tell me, not so many words, but like I know what's going on. The life will be like, no, and and then she's cheating, and you find out she's cheating and hiding money and doing all these things, and you're just like, man, you're not a good person at all.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, divorce does bring out the ruthlessness of people, for sure. It really does that went through them. It's not it's not a good look. So we'll put your socials up there for people to go follow, bad. Thank you very much for coming on the show. It's been a it's been a blast to kind of kick this with you. And I always like to get the perspective from someone that's actually in the field because you come at it from you know both sides, you take a look back, a step back, and you look at things from different perspectives. And a lot of times that's what we need because if you look when these cases happen, everybody on Facebook automatically becomes a lawyer, you know, or what they would have done. A lot of people say what they would have done in a situation. Again, you don't know until you're in that situation. Hopefully, nobody finds themselves in the situations that we've discussed here today. Hopefully that never happens. But you know, when it does, it's important to know the decisions you make and how it can shape and affect your life. So I appreciate you coming on the show, man, and spreading some light on that.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, man. Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Welcome back anytime, ladies and gentlemen. Go check them out. Dallas G, I'm Hollywood Wade, and we'll see you next week for another episode of Crime and Entertainment. Dallas, we appreciate it, my friend.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, thank you.