Heart of the Matter

Jeremiah Fraites of The Lumineers on humanizing addiction and making music

• Partnership to End Addiction • Season 1 • Episode 8

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When he was 14 years old, Jeremiah Fraites of The Lumineers lost his older brother, Joshua, to a heroin overdose. He describes it as the worst thing to have happened to his family. Years later, Jeremiah is still reflecting on the monumental impact drugs and alcohol have on music, culture, families and relationships. This topic even served as inspiration behind the latest album from his band, titled III.

In this episode of Heart of the Matter, Jeremiah joins Elizabeth Vargas to share his perspective on substance use and to discuss his family’s experiences navigating addiction, giving up alcohol himself and learning to be a rock star without substances.

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After you listen, explore these resources from Partnership to End Addiction to learn more about the topics and themes discussed in this episode:


Editor’s Note: The views and opinions expressed on Heart of the Matter are those of the podcast participants and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Partnership to End Addiction. We are also mindful that some of the personal stories feature the word “addict” and other terms from this list. We respect and understand those who choose to use certain terms to express themselves. However, we strive to use language that’s health-oriented, accurately reflects science, promotes evidence-based treatment and demonstrates respect and compassion. 

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Elizabeth Vargas:

Hello, everyone and welcome to heart of the matter. I am your host, Elizabeth Vargas. I think everyone can agree on the power of music. It can be an incredible inspiration for people a way for people to connect away for those of us all over the world, all ages, races, creeds, to really feel similar thoughts and emotions when we hear a song, and partnership and addiction when we started a new campaign this past fall, a campaign about connection is especially important at the time of a pandemic, when so many people are having a hard time connecting. We used a song from the amazingly talented band, The Lumineers, called salt and see, it's part of an album called three from the Lumineers. And the entire album is dedicated to addiction, and to recovery, and to how the disease of addiction and the incredible lasting impact of that disease can spread throughout an entire family, often through generations of a family. It is an amazingly powerful album, there's a whole set of music videos, that are actually strung together and form a movie of sorts that is, tells a story of a family all from three, and it's a really powerful thing to watch, you get a chance to watch it. Anyway, I had a chance to talk to Jeremiah frates, who is one of the two leading band members for the Lumineers, the Grammy nominated band, they've got huge international hits like whoa, hey, and stubborn love. But they have a following all over the place, and also have deep personal connections to the issue of addiction. Jeremiah lost his brother Josh to a heroin overdose when he was a teenager. Jeremiah himself is sober. And today on our podcast, we talk to Jeremiah about this extraordinary album three, about the power of song when it comes to something as catastrophic as addiction and families and about what it means to him to be out there to be on the road to be live on the stage to be creating music, now newly sober. So I hope you'll enjoy our podcast today. And as a reminder, please take a second to subscribe and rate our podcast if you enjoy the show. Because only with your support, can we continue to transform the way our country addresses addiction. Jeremiah, welcome, thank you so much for being with us today.

Jeremiah Fraites:

Thanks for having me.

Elizabeth Vargas:

And congratulations on a fantastic. Wow. and powerful, powerful record this whole album, do we say still say album, by the way? I guess we don't Yeah,

Jeremiah Fraites:

but you know, I mean, we, when I say we, I mean mean West, you know, we've, this is Jeremiah, we we write all the music together for the Lumineers. And we started the band about 15 years ago. And we still very much pride ourselves in the album or the LP, which is probably, like you said, an antiquated term by now. But yeah, we're really proud of this album, I think we think it's our best. It's pretty typical, I think for people to think their newest is their best. But we really, truly do think that about this one.

Elizabeth Vargas:

The entire album called three is, is a deeply personal and powerful look at the disease of addiction, told in three different stories with three songs to each of those stories. Tell me about the decision to do this. You had said that you wanted to humanize the issue of addiction. And you really do it. I mean, I'm reminded of somebody who said the question isn't what's wrong with you? The question is What happened to you? And you really explore that in this?

Jeremiah Fraites:

Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. And it was a it was a deeply personal album for for me and Wes, for different reasons. Wes Schultz is the singer and he writes all the lyrics. And you know, he actually in his own way, his experience with addiction and experience with loving someone that's, that's been going through that and has been going through that. It's someone that is an extended in his extended family and he's seen it sort of Ravage the family and alcohol it's particularly alcoholism that has done that and it's made that person homeless and it's made that person go into the ER, dozens if not hundreds of times literally. Whether for overdoses or just blacking out or Being, you know, completely drunk. And I think it I think for him it was this very cathartic way to deal with, you know, how do you? How do you deal with somebody in your family that you love, and to watch them go through that. And for me, it brought up a lot of stuff. Because when I was, I think about 14 years old, my older brother, Joshua, he was 19, he died of a heroin, drug overdose. So when that happened, you know, that was the worst thing that's ever happened to me in my family. That was my parents firstborn. It was my only sibling, my older brother. And, you know, a lot of these lyrics, a lot of the songs about addiction, whether it's heroin, whether it's, you know, crack or alcohol or any addiction for that matter. It ravages the family. And, you know, it really does terrible things. So, there's a lot of crossover in people's experiences when when talking about addiction, and how people are affected by that. And oh, yeah,

Elizabeth Vargas:

you likened it to the effect of a radiation bomb in a family. And I really actually thought that was that was true.

Jeremiah Fraites:

So yeah, Wes writes all the lyrics. And Wes, and his, one of our buddies, this guy, Nick Bell, I think they sort of started to slowly develop this idea of three chapters in three different characters, and sort of look at how intergenerationally addiction get passed on from Mother, father to daughter, son, siblings, of course, and I think looking at that, and that through that scope, again, like I said, really helped him deal with his, you know, deal with in a cathartic way, through music and through art, which I think is really healthy, that we have that outlet, and that we have that ability to, you know, to take those terrible feelings and take those terrible thoughts and actually put them into some sort of magical spiritual, medium that is music.

Elizabeth Vargas:

We know the numbers are unbelievably staggering. There are 10s of millions of people who are suffering from some sort of substance abuse disorder. We know that one in three adults, however, believe that opioid addiction is a moral failing. And that stigma present prevented 41% of people who need help from getting help. Are you guys hoping to humanize this bite by showing the stories by showing the heart ache, the heartbreak that inevitably sort of, you know, is shot through any family with this issue?

Jeremiah Fraites:

I think, I think less than some sort of moral soapbox. I don't do drugs, because I mean, that was told to all of us, particularly growing up in New Jersey, there was this program called the dare program. I don't know if that right.

Elizabeth Vargas:

Yeah, I don't know.

Jeremiah Fraites:

A lot of good that did. It's funny, too funny. In the dark, sad sense. That we were we grew up in Bergen County, in small town Rams. In New Jersey, there was a lot of kids our age, lot of peers afflicted with opioid addiction. And when my brother died, it obviously felt like a tragedy. And it was a tragedy. About 1015 years later, I heard the statistics and they're so staggering that it gave me comfort in some weird, twisted sense, because there were so many people that had died from it. And I don't know if comfort is the right word, but it was this, you know, just this feeling of like, oh, wow, I wasn't the only one I felt connected to 1000s if not probably millions of other people that are all going through that or have gone through that.

Elizabeth Vargas:

You were very close to your big brother. Growing up. Did you know he had an issue the serious I mean, when How old were you when you realized that he's a real problem?

Jeremiah Fraites:

I think that I realized that he had a real problem. I probably about probably about nine, nine months before he died. Mm hmm. And then only sad to say only when he died. I really, really realized I was so young, you know, I think I was I think it was 2001 when he died. I was born in 86. So I think I was either 14 or 15. Maybe having just turned 15 when he died. And I remember he died. I think it was Sunday, May 27 2001. I think that was the date. I remember his memorial day weekend. And I remember the last time that I had seen him prior to that was sometime in October. So why no yeah, rewind from May 27 to probably around October I was in high school and Ramsey and I remember my mom, she woke me up for school. And she said something like, honey, you know, sweetie, your brother was arrested last night. He he was driving. He was parked in a car at an a&p. On the east coast. There are these grocery stores called a&p. And he was parked in the a&p parking lot. I think it was like two or three in the morning and a police officer, you know, tapped on his window, and I think said like, you know, what are you doing, and I think he said some of the effect of like, I'm gonna go crash my car on the highway, and he was apparently high on PCP, I believe. And he had gone into the grocery store because he ran out of drugs. And I think he was high on PCP. And I think he had ingested some drainage, you know, the stuff you'd use to clean your sink, and toilets and whatever for the drains. So he went, yeah, he went to the ICU, somewhere in hospital in New Jersey, I think was second and third degree burns on his throat and esophagus. And, but I was so young, I knew I didn't even know if I knew all the grisly details. At that moment. I just knew he got arrested. And even months or year or years, I forget before that, when he first got in trouble at the high school for weed. I remember I laughed because I was like, Who gives a shit? I even in my young age, I was like, it's just weed. I don't know what happened to them. And in between A and B, something happened. And I remember mainhand both played soccer growing up. And I remember he did something to his knee. he injured his knee. And he got prescribed Percocet. And that was it. The Percocet. He fell in love with he saved them, he would abuse them. And that eventually led to heroin. So you know, it's sort of a it's a slow, I don't know, it's a slow burn. It's a slow, step by step process to get from A to Z, or eight at step eight A B. And, yeah,

Elizabeth Vargas:

why haven't you seen him since October?

Jeremiah Fraites:

So I think in October, he essentially got arrested, went into the hospital, I think he went into an inpatient rehab. And then my parents tried the tough love approach where they wanted to, I think they basically said no drugs in the house, and you know, or you can live with us as long as you're sober. I think it was something to that effect. And he went to go live with his grandma or grandpa, my grandma or our grandmother who went to go live live with my grandmother was the one that found him on that day. She, you know, my poor Granny, she's she, she died, I think four or five years ago. But she went through a lot discovering him and she went to church that morning. And I think she came back around 11 or 12, and caught up to him and thought he was sleeping. She went up there and, you know, touched his leg and it was cold as ice. And then she called our house. And I remember I was on the pick up the phone. And I remember she was pretty hysterical. And I remember, I thought something was happening to her. I thought she was having a heart attack to be honest or something that something was thought she was in grave danger. Nothing to do with my brother. Because in my youthfulness and my ignorance and my naivete, or naive naiveness naivete, How the hell do you say that word?

Elizabeth Vargas:

He got it.

Jeremiah Fraites:

In that state, I always told myself may have even said it out loud once or twice, I always thought or told myself, this is something we'll laugh about, at some point. This is something and I don't know why I thought I just thought this is something we'll get over together, he'll get over it. I never thought to go see him. Because I never thought anything like that would happen. I don't think anybody expects it to happen. Obviously, you know, if this was happening now, and you know, 34 he was, I guess 37 or 38. Obviously, I'd be much more involved and have a much greater understanding. But it's unfortunate, you know, you learn so much about addiction. Only after the fact. And then you have all these skills that are in vain or you have you have all this knowledge, it's in vain or something and I really love this guy, Gabor Mata, he's I think he's a genius. And he Yeah, he talks a lot about addiction and recovery. And I really think he has said some of the most profound stuff I've ever read on the on the subject and I love his simple, profound question of not why the addiction, but why the pain, you know, like he talks about, like, a deck of playing cards, and cocaine that, you know, arguably or you know, Potential there's nothing innately addictive about either but someone can sit down and get heavily addicted to gambling and playing cards. Now the person's you know, can be a piece of cake can be cocaine it can be now it can be alcohol can be this or that. So, yeah, not why the addiction, but why the pain and I think that's really a really profound way to look at it.

Elizabeth Vargas:

It's a very common thing, a lot of people in recovery, talk about the fact that they used that substance, whatever it was alcohol or drugs, to feel normal to, to finally feel comfortable. And finally feel like you could live in that in your own skin. You know, it's a very, very common thing you had said, after his death, that the grief was so intense, and so immense, and just relentless and just infinite. I imagine it's something that lives with you forever. Really?

Jeremiah Fraites:

Yeah, it's something where it's something where it's about a million miles buried at all times. And it's also where it's like, right underneath the skin. And you know, you could be listening to a piece of music or watching a scene from a movie. And sometimes it's a scene from a movie that's not even related to brothers or something and just like, can make me cry, or think of him in a profound way. And then, there's other times when talking to you right now it feels like talkable, or it feels doable to talk about it. And I think it used to feel more like anniversaries, whether his birthday or the anniversary of his death, or the holidays are always very difficult. Now, one is not necessarily harder than the other one isn't necessarily easier than the other. I just think as time passes on, I guess I'll be going on 20 years now coming up, which is crazy. And yeah, at the time, it was terrible. And you know, first even 10 years, it really was constant, it felt like, and then it never really goes away. You can talk about it, you can figure out some things, some aspects about it, you can make it easier, better digest it more, those types of things, but it never really goes away. Perhaps that's a good thing. You know, I love the idea that I just saw this, this show. It's a very dark show. It's called Mr. Mercedes. And it's a fantastic show. It's adapted from a Stephen King novel. And I think the psychotic killer in the show talks about this idea that you you die twice. And I'm sure that's from something else. Somebody else probably wrote that whether Stephen King wrote that, whoever, but this idea that people die twice, the first time you die, you know, literally your body stops and your brain shuts down. And then the second time is the last time someone mentions your name. And, you know, the idea that we're triggered to remember terrible things. So well. Unfortunately, for better for worse, we remember these things. So well. Perhaps, that gives us reason to talk about these these people still so that's a I guess, a silver lining to it.

Elizabeth Vargas:

It's interesting, Stephen King came up with that idea. He's in longtime recovery himself. Yeah, I've

Jeremiah Fraites:

read some pretty crazy stories about him like waking up out of a stupor in his office like paper strewn about and I'm a bloody nose. I'm doing so much cocaine and beer bottles everywhere. And you know, it's, it doesn't help when people like him and Keith Richards are so profound and so talented. It doesn't help debunk the the culture that you know, be me being a musician. Isn't I just celebrated five years of sobriety. Thank you on August 27 27, seems to be a profound number in my life. 27 was the day my brother died and then 27 August and then April 27, my son's birthday. Wow. Yeah, it's pretty wild. Um, but, you know, Stephen King been in recovery. And Keith Richards probably not been in recovery. But it doesn't help debunk the myth that people like that have inadvertently or advertently provided so many millions of people to look up to when you're 17 1819. You're like, yeah, that guy does. heroin. He does coke or he drinks and he's wrote, you know, he's written all these novels, or he's in the Rolling Stones. And I think that's bad for for kids and teenagers, even adults to sort of like, Oh, well, there's a correlation, you know, and there's so many amazing bands and people that have died. Directly or indirectly from drugs. I mean, the list is just so immense you have, you know, Jimi Hendrix and Jim Morrison, john Bonham, the drummer of zeplin drank himself to death and Elvis and you know, all these people. The list literally is, you know, Prince and Chris Cornell and the Lincoln Park singer Chester, so many people have committed suicide or died from heavy, heavy drug use. And I think that doesn't help debunk. And I think that's something that I think for me being sober, it's showing me that it's possible to be sober, I think it's showing me that it's possible still to be creative, sober, I think that this album three is the best album I've ever been a part of musically, and creatively. And I did all that sober, because five years ago, I became sober. And in that time, we wrote all the music together. And, you know, my thing was alcohol. It was something that I think, just from touring so much, we sort of talked ourselves into the ground, I think, part of the culture, right? It's big time, part of the culture. And, you know, it's fun, and it's cool in the beginning, and then it just becomes tight. It's just so tired. And you know, that classic your, what is it? sick of being tired and tired of being sick and sick and tired of being sick and tired? And, you know, it's really rings true, and it is true. And when I first you know, gave up alcohol, somebody told me, you're going to feel so much more connected to music, and you're going to love to be creative, and you're going to be it's going to be so much better. And I thought what a load of bullshit. I really did not. You know, I really didn't think that was going to be true. And now I you know, only through tried and tested, like actually going through it. I feel like I've become more connected with music more connected with my creativity,

Elizabeth Vargas:

the culture, the glamorization of it. I mean, whether it's even back Ernest Hemingway, sort of the image of the inebriated genius writing or creating, you know, while under the influence, when nobody else is writing about is when that inebriated genius wakes up the next morning, shaky and nauseous and Hanover.

Jeremiah Fraites:

Yeah, yeah, Charles Murkowski. He comes to mind too. And I mean, Charles McCaskey, he was a huge, you know, still is but as a huge, like, influence on me to where I really loved his writing. And I loved Yeah, the genius drunk, and he's writing and he's smoking and you know, this or that, and, ya know, nobody talks about the next morning. It's true, right?

Elizabeth Vargas:

You mentioned you were sick and tired of being sick and tired. Why exactly did you decide to get sober five years ago?

Jeremiah Fraites:

I think for me, I realized, I guess I was. I don't know how I guess I'm 34, I guess I was 29, I probably realized around 27, that I should probably stop or try to limit it. And in between 27 and 29, I tried to limit it. And I never drank in the morning, it wasn't, you know, I was very functional. And I don't even know if I would necessarily even call myself an alcoholic. But I was very, you know, functional, what I could do. I could perform. I could be a husband wasn't like, stealing money or doing absurd things. And I think in my mind, I was like, Well, I'm not hurting anybody. I'm just, you know, mostly I'm on tour. And this helps me go to sleep, or this helps me escape the harsh realities of touring for three and a half years straight, essentially, on the first album, and things like that. So probably around 27, I realized and then 29 I just remember I, you know, woke up one day, and it was like, probably the little voice inside my head for two years. had a conversation with my wife. I remember. We were actually in the studio, believe it or not making our second album called Cleopatra, we were making it in New York State. Mm hmm. And I called my wife and she just asked me how you doing? And then I probably lied and said, I'm fine. And then, you know, she probably said like, how are you doing again? And when do you typically ask someone how they're doing the second time you get the real answer. And I think it all just kind of spilled out. Like I think I just said I'm sick of this. I'm not really you know, I'm sorry. This is probably a lot to take. But you know, I feel like I do have a bit of a I don't know yeah, problem. I want to I want to stop this and it was a really, really difficult time for sure. It was a terrible time to to come to grips with that. And I think that you No, just to give it up cold turkey, I had no withdrawal symptoms, if that gives any indication of like, how much I was drinking, it wasn't like I was shaking or had night sweats or, you know, hallucinate hallucinations or anything like that. But um, yeah, I think it was almost easy the first even three months or six months, and then, you know, as time where time went on, it became difficult, but then there's just little subtle, sometimes it's gigantic shifts in what you do. And sometimes it's subtle shifts, I mean, maybe I gigantic slash subtle shift was just like, leaving places earlier, maybe leaving the bar, still being able to go to bar, but maybe leaving at 945 instead of 145. You know, and just realizing like, nothing productive or good has ever happened between 2am and 6am. ever in the history of mankind, you know, unless you're jet lagged, like, if you're doing like, anything between 2am and 6am, still awake, it's probably something not good. And I think, you know, being married and wanting to have a family and all that, I think it was just, you know, to get my shit together, especially before having our beautiful son, who's now two and a half, it's like, it makes a lot of sense. And I'm really thankful that that was my path. I think it shows you too, that, you know, maybe someone's listening to this right now and thinking, Wow, what an asshole, you know, this guy's older brother died of drugs. And he still had the tenacity, of the arrogance of the boldness to, to, to drink. And I've thought about that myself. And I think that kind of shows you the power of I don't know, you can, you can still witness something so terrible in your own family, and still be drawn to this to this thing. inadvertently, it's you never wake up one day and you're like, I want to fuck up my life. I want to, you know, I want I want to wake up in 10 years and feel miserable every day. Nobody ever consciously says that. So I think what we're talking about is really powerful, and how profound addiction and you know, what it can do to someone's brain. So

Elizabeth Vargas:

no, I, I, you know, I wrote a book about my recovery. And I wrote in the book, no little girl ever lies awake in bed and says, When I grow up, I want to be an alcoholic. And no woman wakes up in the morning and says, today's a great day to go get a drink myself unconscious and have to go to the emergency room. Nobody plans to do this.

Jeremiah Fraites:

I asked was that your Was that your drug or drink of choice was alcohol.

Elizabeth Vargas:

Alcohol was my Yeah, was alcohol. And I didn't start drinking until later in life, you know, it all. This disease takes many paths. I really didn't start drinking until I was in my 20s. And in television news, it's another industry where there's a lot of high, you know, high pressure live TV, everybody trips to the bar afterwards. It's sort of everybody drinks. And sure,

Jeremiah Fraites:

nobody's ever like Yeah. Do you want a glass of water with lemon? Or do you want a salad? Or? Like, what some fresh squeezed juice? It's never. Yes. So part of the culture, and it doesn't, it's not just music, and it's it's funny. I mean, it's also on the job drinking, you know, at least for musician, it's like, if you were a teacher, and you were drinking, you would be fired and asked from the community and it'd be like, you know, canceled all over social media. Musicians drinking or using drugs, while like actually literally during the work. It's, it's fine. It's whatever, it's actually, you know, it's part of it. And yeah, it's dangerous. And then at the end, it's just kind of boring. That's how I kind of feel. I don't, I don't feel like I'm on some sort of pedestal ever. I never have. I don't think I ever will. But I think just for me. Yeah, I don't know. It just shifted a big shift for me in my thinking.

Elizabeth Vargas:

I was struck by the lyrics to the song Gloria from this album. GLORIA I smell it on your breath. GLORIA booze and peppermint. GLORIA No one said enough is enough. GLORIA they found you on the floor. GLORIA My hand was tied to yours. GLORIA Did you finally see that enough? is enough? That was really I really connected with that.

Jeremiah Fraites:

I think that um, you know, that's one of the West is great. Down talents is that I think the peppermint was the key for me, I think, you know, talking about addiction. I think when you're talking about love when you're talking about a big open ended. Grand subject, you almost have to find something specific to tease out the humanity I think, and I think when he said the peppermint on the breath, it just, it was like this really random lyric that I wasn't even sure I was sort of like on it's cool like peppermint. It's not really like a musical word peppermint. But then it just really grew on me. And I thought, Wow, what a What a cool novel idea to like to use that, in the words. And I think that,

Elizabeth Vargas:

well, it shows her effort to disguise it.

Unknown:

Yeah,

Elizabeth Vargas:

peppermint so that nobody will smell the alcohol. And it's

Jeremiah Fraites:

like, yeah, like this miniscule aspect, almost like a pixel, a part of a larger frame that, how do you talk about something so big, but you pick some random, miniscule aspect of it, you tease that out? And then, yeah, masking the breath. Peppermint. Doesn't have to be like, you're a drunk, and you're always in rehab, and, you know, these, you know, heavy handed lyrics or something. It's so it was oddly beautiful in that regard. And I think that, when I remember when we first when we were writing this album together, he kept coming in with lyrics akin to that, you know, there's two songs in the album that are heavily about this person, Gloria's one, obviously, and the second is leader of the landslide. Leader of landslide might be one of my favorite songs that we've ever written together. And again, it's very much heavily about this person. And, and then, I brought the music into the song called Donna and I brought in a couple lyrics and showed him and you know, he has an another lyric and Donna, like, you can sober up enough to hold the baby. I was thinking like, oh, man, like, this whole album is so heavy. It's all about this person and drinking. You know, I remember saying to him, I said, I think we should, can we just like, take a walk around the block? You know, can we take a walk, and I was like, I think it's, I think it's important to sing about this stuff. But it was definitely a moment where I said to him, you know, this is bringing up a lot of a lot of stuff for me to this is bringing up a lot of shit, like, trudging up the past and bringing up a lot of memories that I thought were dormant or even extinct, in my own family and in my own inner relationship with it. So it was a really great heart to heart, very candid conversation to have about that. Because, you know, it was just, it wasn't like, Hey, don't sing about this stuff, either. I just need you to know that this is what's going on with me with it. And, you know, when we when we finished the album, and Kevin Phillips, the amazing director that did all the music videos, he you know, he had, he had the tall task of doing all the music videos, so that they weaved in to each other. But also, if you saw one as a standalone, it would still sort of make sense or be that be like powerful and poetic and its own its own good regard. And the glory of video is very intense. If anybody hasn't seen it, I would suggest checking it out. If I like song, it's very thing

Elizabeth Vargas:

as intense though. They're all and i think you know, what's so powerful about them, as you see and hear, hear through the music and see through the series of music videos, which together form what a 40 minute Mini Movie, in essence, you really see what you refer to and we were talking about at the beginning of this interview that how much it's like a nuclear bomb and a family. Yeah, I would rip ripples out and affects everybody, not just that night, or that week. But that year and that general you know, that decade, that generation and how it's passed down. It's such a profound tragedy what this disease does to families and you have written about it and you show it so beautifully in the songs and yes, in those videos that were made to form this sort of Mini Movie.

Jeremiah Fraites:

Yeah, I mean, I watched the miniseries Chernobyl on HBO and just Yeah, that's great. Wasn't I was so stunning and sad and really profound in a, you know, awesome in the sense of catastrophic Lee terrible how, like, the awesome power of what uranium or the radiation would do to the community and stuff and it just was so and yeah, I guess similarly, with addiction. It just really seems to ring true in that same regard.

Elizabeth Vargas:

Well, in in Chernobyl, that entire, you know, hundreds of square miles if not 1000s of square miles are sealed off and shut down like the the ground has been poisoned. The air has been poisoned to the trees, everything that lives there water poison. Yeah. And and, I mean, poison might be the wrong word to use when it comes to addiction, but impacted most certainly.

Jeremiah Fraites:

Yeah. No, it's true. You know, we

Elizabeth Vargas:

used the song Salton Sea for Partnership to End addiction, our campaign Thank you. First of all, it's an incredible campaign and your song really makes it

Jeremiah Fraites:

super easy to put to the animation and stuff. It was really.

Elizabeth Vargas:

And it's all about connection, which is the key to, to fighting the disease of addiction. And I'm struck by the refrain in the song all that you suffered all the disease, you couldn't hide it, hide it from me. Somebody always does see, I mean, no matter how much we, you know, in the grips of the disease may try and hide it, or keep it a secret, it leaves out.

Jeremiah Fraites:

It's true. And I think that, potentially, it leaks out or it seeps out in these different ways. Because I think the person suffering wants to be found wants to be heard wants to be discovered, I think even in deep down if they don't think they want to, or they say right out loud, that they don't want to, I think deep down, they want to be discovered have the secret. Like I alluded to before, when I was 27, I think there was a part of me, I thought, well, somebody's just probably gonna, like, almost make this decision for me. And I remember, it was funny when I was stopped drinking, that is when I was probably 17 1819. I looked up to people that or I was in, I don't know what the right word is a phrase influenced, inspired by, you know, fallen, again, 17 1819 years old fallen into that trap of being like the glamorization of drinking and drug use. And then it sort of flipped, where, when I started to become sober, it was looking to the opposite, where, you know, even the actor Bradley Cooper, I remember, I think he became sober at the same time at 29. And he said something, something to the effect of, I think I've had enough beer, you know, for a lifetime. And I was like, wow, I feel the same exact way. But I just needed a couple more years to like,

Elizabeth Vargas:

make sure yeah, just to be like,

Jeremiah Fraites:

Am I sure, you know, and sort of wrestle with it and try to what's that word like bargain a lot of bargaining is I'm sure, you know, a lot of bargain and being like, well, and I remember even in that two year period, like not drinking for a month, and then being like, Oh, that was your notching for two months, and then coming back with a vengeance, you know, just these little things that when you look back, you're like, there's not enough bargaining in the world.

Elizabeth Vargas:

Do you think by writing these songs, making this album doing this tour, hopefully starting back up when the panda finally ends? Do you think that you're encouraging people to not just address it perhaps in their own lives? But helping chip away at that stigma? Because I know you were talking about the whole, you know, how you felt hearing about other people who had lost a sibling to drug addiction and how your reaction was out? I'm not alone. I'm not the only person carrying this excruciating burden of grief. Do you think that by writing these songs and, and making this album and doing this tour and making this incredible, like movie of music videos that that go along with that, that you're not only going to help people feel less alone, but perhaps chip away a tiny bit at the stigma? Because we know we're not alone?

Jeremiah Fraites:

I mean, I think that's a great points, I think, I hope so I think that ultimately, you make something. And I've heard West say this, and I think it's really wise, I think like the idea that you're not so much prescribing something, but you're describing something, I think in you know, through his lyrics of describing the situations in the way that people and then through my own personal story of kind of revealing intimate details of my own sobriety and the intimacy of like, you know, coming to grips with being a sober artist, I can still be prolific and still create and stuff. Yeah, I hope so. I don't think I consciously think well, I'm gonna tell my story. So X, Y, and Z happen, but the way you just phrased it was, was pretty cool. was, was healthy, you know, it's like a noble, a noble cause a noble endeavor, I think that maybe somebody that's 15 or 19, or even 24, maybe they, you know, hear this and hear me talk about it, and maybe they're on the verge of going through, you know, maybe I can or maybe anybody any of us can save, you know, 10 years of sadness and help them skip a few steps and not have to go down. Because, you know, for me, it probably just took that extra two years where I was like, Oh, let me see, maybe it's maybe I am, you know, maybe I'm fine. And, you know, two years I could add two years back and started two years had seven years of sobriety instead of five. But it's easier said than done. So yeah, I think if something good Long story short, something good comes from, from all this for other people. And some of those connections, you know, you'll never actually see you never actually meet. But I realized I think a light bulb went off in my head where I realized a lot of my favorite artists are. It's like they open up the pages of their diary. Even like someone like the Red Hot Chili Peppers. I mean, they're just so open about their heroin, drug addictions, and they lost a band member, and they lost so much. And they gained so much through their storytelling and gained so much through their brutal honesty. I think that's really beautiful. And that is inspiring more so than a drunk writer at midnight smoking and waking up shaking the next morning, so

Elizabeth Vargas:

Well, no, it's it's like that line, booze and peppermint. You know, in those three words, you realize that is written by somebody who has been there, because that I know exactly what that's about. It's about drinking secret drinking and in futilely trying to cover it up. And immediately followed with that is the realization somebody else has been in that exact position. And I'm not alone. And that's the key is sometimes that's the first step in recovery, whether it's for the person who's, you know, using drugs or alcohol in an unhealthy way, or the people around them who are affected by that issue, to realize you're not alone. And then you can take that next step, perhaps and ask for help. And that's, you know, that's the key. It's

Jeremiah Fraites:

true. It's true.

Elizabeth Vargas:

So well, thank you so much. It was great to talk to you. Thank you for showing everybody that you can be sober and be super cool. You are.

Jeremiah Fraites:

Now Thanks a lot. It means a lot. And yeah, anytime we get to talk about this sort of thing, it's, it's not always easy just to like, you know, open up about it, but you're easy to talk to about it. So thanks for, for being like that. And yeah, I don't know. This is not something we always get to do. So it's super cool. For me, a lot of the questions are typically about, specifically about the songs or about upcoming tour or promoting something that we're doing. And yeah, so thank you for that.

Elizabeth Vargas:

Well, thank you. We really appreciate it. We look forward to seeing you when the pandemic lifts back on that stage in those arenas.

Jeremiah Fraites:

Yeah. Thanks a lot.

Elizabeth Vargas:

All right. All right. Take care. Thanks, Jeremiah.

Jeremiah Fraites:

All right. Thank you.

Elizabeth Vargas:

Thank you so much for listening to our talk with Jeremiah today. His new solo album Piano Piano is available now and I encourage you to listen to it when you can. And you can find this podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, and our website at drug free.org slash podcast. As a reminder, if you need help with a loved one who's struggling with substance use, you can text 55753 or visit drug free.org. And we'll talk to you soon