{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2.04,"endTime":4.44,"body":"Thanks so much,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2.04,"endTime":4.44,"body":"Cassie for joining us. Can you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":4.44,"endTime":7.2,"body":"just briefly tell me a bit about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":4.44,"endTime":7.2,"body":"who you are and what you do?"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":7.44,"endTime":9.66,"body":"Yeah, sure."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":7.44,"endTime":9.66,"body":"Thanks for having me. My name is"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":9.66,"endTime":13.68,"body":"Cassie Bowness. I am a research"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":9.66,"endTime":13.68,"body":"assistant professor at the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":13.68,"endTime":17.34,"body":"University of New Mexico and the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":13.68,"endTime":17.34,"body":"United States. I work at the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":17.34,"endTime":21.33,"body":"centre on alcohol substance use"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":17.34,"endTime":21.33,"body":"and addictions, which is also"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":21.39,"endTime":25.65,"body":"often referred to as casa, I"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":21.39,"endTime":25.65,"body":"actually just started this"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":25.65,"endTime":30.78,"body":"position in the last six months"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":25.65,"endTime":30.78,"body":"or so. I just recently finished"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":30.78,"endTime":35.19,"body":"my PhD in Clinical Psychology,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":30.78,"endTime":35.19,"body":"within emphasis in addiction"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":35.19,"endTime":39.39,"body":"science. So most of my research,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":35.19,"endTime":39.39,"body":"and also my clinical work to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":39.39,"endTime":43.68,"body":"date has really focused on"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":39.39,"endTime":43.68,"body":"addiction and most specifically"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":43.71,"endTime":45.51,"body":"on alcohol and harm reduction,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":45.6,"endTime":48.27,"body":"and specifically"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":45.6,"endTime":48.27,"body":"that work around I don't know, I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":48.27,"endTime":52.5,"body":"guess how we conceptualise and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":48.27,"endTime":52.5,"body":"understand what alcohol problems"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":52.5,"endTime":56.31,"body":"are. So can you start off maybe"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":52.5,"endTime":56.31,"body":"by telling us a bit about, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":56.31,"endTime":60.78,"body":"know, what the main ways alcohol"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":56.31,"endTime":60.78,"body":"problems are kind of captured or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":60.78,"endTime":64.29,"body":"measured, you know, things like"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":60.78,"endTime":64.29,"body":"maybe in the DSM versus the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":64.29,"endTime":65.67,"body":"audit, for instance?"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":65.73,"endTime":69.15,"body":"Yeah, sure, I'm"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":65.73,"endTime":69.15,"body":"of the mind that alcohol use"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":69.15,"endTime":73.23,"body":"itself obviously kind of exists"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":69.15,"endTime":73.23,"body":"on a continuum. And where a"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":73.23,"endTime":76.47,"body":"certain person falls on that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":73.23,"endTime":76.47,"body":"continuum is determined by a"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":76.47,"endTime":81.33,"body":"number of factors. At at the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":76.47,"endTime":81.33,"body":"more extreme end of the alcohol"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":81.33,"endTime":84.99,"body":"use continuum, we might start to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":81.33,"endTime":84.99,"body":"see things like problems or what"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":84.99,"endTime":88.62,"body":"the DSM or the Diagnostic and"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":84.99,"endTime":88.62,"body":"Statistical Manual of Mental"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":88.62,"endTime":92.37,"body":"Disorders refers to as alcohol"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":88.62,"endTime":92.37,"body":"use disorder. So that would be"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":92.37,"endTime":95.82,"body":"kind of the more conceivably the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":92.37,"endTime":95.82,"body":"more extreme end of the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":95.82,"endTime":100.29,"body":"continuum. And most of my work"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":95.82,"endTime":100.29,"body":"really has focused on this DSM"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":100.32,"endTime":104.82,"body":"conceptualization of of alcohol"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":100.32,"endTime":104.82,"body":"use disorder, or AUD. And the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":104.82,"endTime":109.17,"body":"way that they define that is,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":104.82,"endTime":109.17,"body":"they define alcohol use disorder"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":109.17,"endTime":112.68,"body":"as being composed of these 11"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":109.17,"endTime":112.68,"body":"symptoms. And these symptoms"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":112.68,"endTime":118.71,"body":"cover the domains of impaired"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":112.68,"endTime":118.71,"body":"control, social or interpersonal"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":118.71,"endTime":124.29,"body":"impairment, risky use and"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":118.71,"endTime":124.29,"body":"pharmacological criteria, like"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":124.35,"endTime":127.53,"body":"alcohol withdrawal, or"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":124.35,"endTime":127.53,"body":"tolerance, for example. So what"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":127.53,"endTime":130.98,"body":"I've largely focused on is this"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":127.53,"endTime":130.98,"body":"idea of DSM five"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":130.98,"endTime":134.76,"body":"conceptualization, which tends"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":130.98,"endTime":134.76,"body":"to kind of frame alcohol"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":134.76,"endTime":138.84,"body":"problems and AUD in terms of the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":134.76,"endTime":138.84,"body":"psychosocial problems, but as"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":138.84,"endTime":141.63,"body":"you mentioned, and as you kind"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":138.84,"endTime":141.63,"body":"of alluded to there, other ways"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":141.63,"endTime":146.04,"body":"of conceptualising alcohol"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":141.63,"endTime":146.04,"body":"problems or disorder, so to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":146.04,"endTime":149.64,"body":"speak, if we want to call it"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":146.04,"endTime":149.64,"body":"that one of those ways is ICD,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":149.67,"endTime":154.02,"body":"ICD 11. There are actually"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":149.67,"endTime":154.02,"body":"several different diagnoses in"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":154.02,"endTime":158.52,"body":"the ICD that are related to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":154.02,"endTime":158.52,"body":"alcohol use, there's kind of our"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":158.67,"endTime":163.2,"body":"classic dependence, right, this"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":158.67,"endTime":163.2,"body":"is thought to be repeated or"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":163.2,"endTime":167.07,"body":"continuous use that has some"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":163.2,"endTime":167.07,"body":"component of impaired control,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":168.51,"endTime":171.69,"body":"you know, being unable to stop"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":168.51,"endTime":171.69,"body":"drinking, or only have one"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":171.69,"endTime":177.18,"body":"drink, sometimes accompanied by"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":171.69,"endTime":177.18,"body":"like craving, for example, but"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":177.18,"endTime":180.63,"body":"not always. And then obviously,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":177.18,"endTime":180.63,"body":"other things like, you know,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":180.63,"endTime":184.41,"body":"spending a lot of time using"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":180.63,"endTime":184.41,"body":"alcohol, or having those classic"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":184.41,"endTime":186.51,"body":"features like tolerance or"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":184.41,"endTime":186.51,"body":"withdrawal that really"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":186.51,"endTime":190.29,"body":"characterise what is thought to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":186.51,"endTime":190.29,"body":"be alcohol dependence. And then"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":190.5,"endTime":193.41,"body":"I won't go too much into this."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":190.5,"endTime":193.41,"body":"But ICD is interesting, because"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":193.41,"endTime":198.06,"body":"it also has a harmful pattern of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":193.41,"endTime":198.06,"body":"use as a diagnosis. And then"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":198.06,"endTime":200.97,"body":"hazardous use, which is"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":198.06,"endTime":200.97,"body":"considered kind of a health risk"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":200.97,"endTime":204.81,"body":"factor. And these are thought to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":200.97,"endTime":204.81,"body":"be kind of less severe"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":204.81,"endTime":209.91,"body":"manifestations of dependence. So"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":204.81,"endTime":209.91,"body":"previously, DSM, separated"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":210.33,"endTime":213.0,"body":"alcohol use disorder into"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":210.33,"endTime":213.0,"body":"alcohol abuse and alcohol"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":213.0,"endTime":217.17,"body":"dependence, a harmful pattern of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":213.0,"endTime":217.17,"body":"use is thought to kind of map"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":217.17,"endTime":220.65,"body":"more onto what was formerly"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":217.17,"endTime":220.65,"body":"known as alcohol abuse."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":221.88,"endTime":223.92,"body":"Yeah, because"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":221.88,"endTime":223.92,"body":"because the idea of alcohol use"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":223.92,"endTime":227.85,"body":"disorder, I was going to ask you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":223.92,"endTime":227.85,"body":"about this because in kind of UK"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":227.85,"endTime":231.12,"body":"or in England, at least we have,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":227.85,"endTime":231.12,"body":"you know, it's kind of almost"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":231.12,"endTime":235.83,"body":"four categories, kind of derived"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":231.12,"endTime":235.83,"body":"from the audits, the alcohol use"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":235.83,"endTime":239.19,"body":"disorders, identification test"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":235.83,"endTime":239.19,"body":"of kind of low risk, which is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":239.19,"endTime":242.88,"body":"essentially drinking within the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":239.19,"endTime":242.88,"body":"guidelines, increasing risk,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":242.88,"endTime":245.4,"body":"which is what used to be"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":242.88,"endTime":245.4,"body":"referred to as hazardous"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":245.4,"endTime":249.39,"body":"drinking. So maybe just drinking"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":245.4,"endTime":249.39,"body":"a bit above the guidelines, but"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":249.45,"endTime":252.6,"body":"maybe not having any"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":249.45,"endTime":252.6,"body":"manifestation of problems as"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":252.6,"endTime":256.59,"body":"such. And then yeah, the kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":252.6,"endTime":256.59,"body":"harmful drinking or high risk"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":256.59,"endTime":259.95,"body":"drinking, it'd be called, which"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":256.59,"endTime":259.95,"body":"I think is that ICD, harmful"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":259.95,"endTime":262.41,"body":"pattern of drinking, and then"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":259.95,"endTime":262.41,"body":"we'd have a category of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":262.41,"endTime":265.8,"body":"dependence, which might be split"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":262.41,"endTime":265.8,"body":"into sort of mild, moderate or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":265.8,"endTime":270.66,"body":"severe. So think nice kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":265.8,"endTime":270.66,"body":"use alcohol use disorders as an"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":270.66,"endTime":274.77,"body":"umbrella for all of the kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":270.66,"endTime":274.77,"body":"hazardous or risky drinking that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":274.86,"endTime":278.73,"body":"may not have any kind of actual"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":274.86,"endTime":278.73,"body":"problems associated with it yet."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":279.12,"endTime":283.92,"body":"Whereas Am I right? That DSM AUD"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":279.12,"endTime":283.92,"body":"doesn't include that kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":283.92,"endTime":287.46,"body":"risk those risky patterns where"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":283.92,"endTime":287.46,"body":"there's no harm yet manifested"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":287.49,"endTime":289.47,"body":"as inclusive of an AED?"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":289.53,"endTime":293.19,"body":"Yeah, it's it's"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":289.53,"endTime":293.19,"body":"tricky because a lot of what DSM"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":293.19,"endTime":296.67,"body":"includes in their diagnostic"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":293.19,"endTime":296.67,"body":"criteria are psychosocial"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":296.67,"endTime":301.14,"body":"consequences which are captured"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":296.67,"endTime":301.14,"body":"by those less kind of risky"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":301.92,"endTime":306.09,"body":"categories in the ICD. So, you"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":301.92,"endTime":306.09,"body":"know, perhaps if we, you know,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":306.09,"endTime":308.85,"body":"if we had a better, I don't"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":306.09,"endTime":308.85,"body":"know, kind of way of determining"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":308.85,"endTime":312.72,"body":"the threshold for the DSM"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":308.85,"endTime":312.72,"body":"diagnosis that would allow us to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":312.72,"endTime":317.88,"body":"capture, you know, only"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":312.72,"endTime":317.88,"body":"problems, problems plus these,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":317.88,"endTime":320.34,"body":"you know, tolerance or"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":317.88,"endTime":320.34,"body":"withdrawal symptoms, just"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":320.34,"endTime":323.25,"body":"tolerance or withdrawal that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":320.34,"endTime":323.25,"body":"would give us a little bit more"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":323.25,"endTime":326.55,"body":"information about kind of what"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":323.25,"endTime":326.55,"body":"this person's experiencing in"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":326.55,"endTime":328.62,"body":"their day to day life related to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":326.55,"endTime":328.62,"body":"their alcohol use."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":328.68,"endTime":331.23,"body":"Yeah, that's a lot"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":328.68,"endTime":331.23,"body":"of what your work has been"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":331.23,"endTime":334.44,"body":"doing, isn't it kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":331.23,"endTime":334.44,"body":"dissecting all these nuances or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":334.44,"endTime":339.48,"body":"types of clusters or aspects or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":334.44,"endTime":339.48,"body":"components of alcohol problems,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":339.48,"endTime":343.86,"body":"that it's really heterogeneous"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":339.48,"endTime":343.86,"body":"kind of problem, it manifests in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":343.86,"endTime":346.8,"body":"so many different ways of so"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":343.86,"endTime":346.8,"body":"many different causes. And your"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":346.8,"endTime":350.94,"body":"work is taking on this almost"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":346.8,"endTime":350.94,"body":"infinitely complex task of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":350.94,"endTime":354.36,"body":"trying to disentangle and say,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":350.94,"endTime":354.36,"body":"or what may be more useful and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":354.36,"endTime":358.74,"body":"more accurate ways of trying to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":354.36,"endTime":358.74,"body":"identify this kind of very broad"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":358.74,"endTime":361.95,"body":"concept of alcohol use disorder"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":358.74,"endTime":361.95,"body":"or alcohol problems."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":361.98,"endTime":364.26,"body":"Yeah, one of I"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":361.98,"endTime":364.26,"body":"think, in many ways, one of the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":364.26,"endTime":368.25,"body":"improvements of the DSM five"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":364.26,"endTime":368.25,"body":"substance use disorder diagnosis"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":368.25,"endTime":372.27,"body":"was moving away from this idea"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":368.25,"endTime":372.27,"body":"of abuse versus dependence, just"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":372.27,"endTime":375.96,"body":"because those things, you know,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":372.27,"endTime":375.96,"body":"statistically, were not actually"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":375.96,"endTime":378.48,"body":"separating in the way that they"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":375.96,"endTime":378.48,"body":"were conceptually thought to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":378.48,"endTime":382.14,"body":"separate. So in DSM five, they"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":378.48,"endTime":382.14,"body":"just combined it into like this"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":382.14,"endTime":385.92,"body":"alcohol use disorder, you know,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":382.14,"endTime":385.92,"body":"diagnosis or construct. And"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":386.07,"endTime":388.77,"body":"while in some ways, that's an"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":386.07,"endTime":388.77,"body":"improvement, I really do think"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":388.77,"endTime":391.83,"body":"that it in other ways just"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":388.77,"endTime":391.83,"body":"provides us a lot less"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":391.83,"endTime":394.86,"body":"information. And a lot of what"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":391.83,"endTime":394.86,"body":"my work has focused on is this"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":394.89,"endTime":399.0,"body":"assumption that the DSM five"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":394.89,"endTime":399.0,"body":"makes that all of those 11"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":399.0,"endTime":402.93,"body":"criteria used to define an"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":399.0,"endTime":402.93,"body":"alcohol use disorder are in some"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":402.93,"endTime":406.86,"body":"way created equally. And indeed,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":402.93,"endTime":406.86,"body":"they're not. And they all"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":406.86,"endTime":411.12,"body":"provide unique information"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":406.86,"endTime":411.12,"body":"that's oftentimes overlooked"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":411.12,"endTime":414.6,"body":"when we just move into that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":411.12,"endTime":414.6,"body":"categorical realm where we just"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":414.6,"endTime":416.85,"body":"say, you know, you have an"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":414.6,"endTime":416.85,"body":"alcohol use disorder, or you"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":416.85,"endTime":417.33,"body":"don't,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":417.42,"endTime":420.15,"body":"I guess, also that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":417.42,"endTime":420.15,"body":"the abuse and dependence, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":420.15,"endTime":423.12,"body":"know, whilst sort of through"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":420.15,"endTime":423.12,"body":"your work, you've shown it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":423.12,"endTime":425.73,"body":"doesn't really apply in real"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":423.12,"endTime":425.73,"body":"life, or they're not really, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":425.73,"endTime":428.79,"body":"know, they don't separate out as"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":425.73,"endTime":428.79,"body":"neatly as you'd want them to, to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":428.82,"endTime":432.12,"body":"call them different things in a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":428.82,"endTime":432.12,"body":"way they do sort of make more"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":432.12,"endTime":436.83,"body":"sense. Probably, you know, like,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":432.12,"endTime":436.83,"body":"if we talk to people about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":437.13,"endTime":439.56,"body":"alcohol problems, in general,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":437.13,"endTime":439.56,"body":"they tend to think about, well,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":439.56,"endTime":443.34,"body":"it's kind of binge drinking,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":439.56,"endTime":443.34,"body":"which might be what DSM four"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":443.34,"endTime":446.49,"body":"called abuse, and then there's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":443.34,"endTime":446.49,"body":"kind of dependence, which a lot"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":446.49,"endTime":449.79,"body":"of people are referred to as"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":446.49,"endTime":449.79,"body":"alcoholism or addiction or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":449.79,"endTime":453.33,"body":"whatever. So I guess, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":449.79,"endTime":453.33,"body":"there's the marrying up of what"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":453.33,"endTime":456.48,"body":"are kind of useful concepts for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":453.33,"endTime":456.48,"body":"people to try and make sense of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":456.48,"endTime":459.06,"body":"and understand different types"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":456.48,"endTime":459.06,"body":"of alcohol problems in the real"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":459.06,"endTime":463.11,"body":"world, versus maybe how we want"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":459.06,"endTime":463.11,"body":"to try and really capture the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":463.11,"endTime":468.0,"body":"real complex details and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":463.11,"endTime":468.0,"body":"differences in research, policy,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":468.0,"endTime":470.88,"body":"and certainly treatment, if we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":468.0,"endTime":470.88,"body":"want to maybe target or tailor"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":470.88,"endTime":471.78,"body":"treatments more."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":471.96,"endTime":475.29,"body":"Yeah, and that's"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":471.96,"endTime":475.29,"body":"where a lot of my more recent"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":475.29,"endTime":478.11,"body":"work has been moving towards is,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":475.29,"endTime":478.11,"body":"you know, trying to tease apart"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":478.11,"endTime":480.75,"body":"this question of, you know, why"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":478.11,"endTime":480.75,"body":"do the treatments that we have"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":480.75,"endTime":483.42,"body":"for alcohol use disorder? Why"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":480.75,"endTime":483.42,"body":"are they perhaps not as"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":483.42,"endTime":487.5,"body":"effective as some other"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":483.42,"endTime":487.5,"body":"treatments that we have in for"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":487.5,"endTime":489.36,"body":"psychopathology, more generally,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":487.5,"endTime":489.36,"body":"why"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":489.36,"endTime":491.85,"body":"you mean is, as"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":489.36,"endTime":491.85,"body":"well as sort of mental health"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":491.85,"endTime":492.45,"body":"treatments?"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":493.86,"endTime":496.35,"body":"Correct. And I"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":493.86,"endTime":496.35,"body":"think one of the big pieces of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":496.35,"endTime":499.14,"body":"that is this assumption that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":496.35,"endTime":499.14,"body":"just because somebody meets"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":499.14,"endTime":502.44,"body":"criteria for an alcohol use"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":499.14,"endTime":502.44,"body":"disorder, you know, somehow"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":502.44,"endTime":505.44,"body":"implies that those, all those"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":502.44,"endTime":505.44,"body":"people are the same, and"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":505.44,"endTime":507.78,"body":"everything's going to work for"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":505.44,"endTime":507.78,"body":"them. Just because they have"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":507.78,"endTime":510.96,"body":"this alcohol use disorder"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":507.78,"endTime":510.96,"body":"diagnosis, when in reality that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":510.96,"endTime":514.32,"body":"tells us nothing about their,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":510.96,"endTime":514.32,"body":"you know, individual profile,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":514.32,"endTime":517.62,"body":"you know, how they, how they"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":514.32,"endTime":517.62,"body":"acquired an alcohol use"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":517.62,"endTime":521.43,"body":"disorder, what their history is,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":517.62,"endTime":521.43,"body":"what the social determinants of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":521.49,"endTime":525.9,"body":"that are. So, really, in many"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":521.49,"endTime":525.9,"body":"ways, it does not surprise me"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":525.9,"endTime":529.56,"body":"that the research on alcohol use"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":525.9,"endTime":529.56,"body":"disorder treatment looks the way"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":529.56,"endTime":530.31,"body":"it does."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":530.58,"endTime":533.04,"body":"Yeah, I guess the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":530.58,"endTime":533.04,"body":"the, you know, in alcohol"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":533.04,"endTime":536.61,"body":"treatment, you know, I think any"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":533.04,"endTime":536.61,"body":"good clinician would say, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":536.61,"endTime":539.43,"body":"know, you don't want to get too"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":536.61,"endTime":539.43,"body":"het up on the diagnosis,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":539.46,"endTime":542.61,"body":"whatever it's, you know, working"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":539.46,"endTime":542.61,"body":"with the person in front of you,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":542.61,"endTime":546.33,"body":"you want to kind of formulate"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":542.61,"endTime":546.33,"body":"their, their alcohol problems"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":546.33,"endTime":549.42,"body":"within the context of their life"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":546.33,"endTime":549.42,"body":"and who they are and how they"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":549.42,"endTime":553.41,"body":"feel about it. And so in that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":549.42,"endTime":553.41,"body":"sense, that captures much more"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":553.41,"endTime":556.77,"body":"than nature of the person's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":553.41,"endTime":556.77,"body":"alcohol problem in a kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":556.77,"endTime":560.91,"body":"clinical context, but maybe our"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":556.77,"endTime":560.91,"body":"conceptualizations and alcohol"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":560.94,"endTime":564.9,"body":"as they exist through DSM, etc,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":560.94,"endTime":564.9,"body":"at the moment, don't just quite"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":564.9,"endTime":566.82,"body":"capture the nuance in the same"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":564.9,"endTime":566.82,"body":"way as that."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":566.91,"endTime":569.7,"body":"Yeah. And I,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":566.91,"endTime":569.7,"body":"that's kind of really"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":569.73,"endTime":573.66,"body":"intricately for me tied in with"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":569.73,"endTime":573.66,"body":"this idea that the criteria are"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":573.66,"endTime":576.96,"body":"created equally. So what I mean"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":573.66,"endTime":576.96,"body":"by that is that you know, any of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":576.96,"endTime":580.89,"body":"those 11 criteria all indicate"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":576.96,"endTime":580.89,"body":"like the same level of an"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":580.89,"endTime":585.03,"body":"alcohol problem or an alcohol"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":580.89,"endTime":585.03,"body":"use disorder. And really, if you"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":585.03,"endTime":588.45,"body":"think about it, you know,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":585.03,"endTime":588.45,"body":"someone who meets criteria for"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":588.45,"endTime":592.65,"body":"alcohol use disorder on the, on"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":588.45,"endTime":592.65,"body":"the basis of like, social or"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":592.65,"endTime":596.58,"body":"interpersonal problems alongside"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":592.65,"endTime":596.58,"body":"something like you know,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":596.58,"endTime":599.7,"body":"spending a lot of time using or"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":596.58,"endTime":599.7,"body":"getting over the effects of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":599.7,"endTime":602.46,"body":"alcohol. Hall compared to a"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":599.7,"endTime":602.46,"body":"person that is experiencing"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":602.46,"endTime":606.09,"body":"alcohol withdrawal or drinking"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":602.46,"endTime":606.09,"body":"to avoid withdrawal, and"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":606.09,"endTime":609.99,"body":"tolerance, which are thought to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":606.09,"endTime":609.99,"body":"be, you know, physiologic"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":609.99,"endTime":613.71,"body":"manifestations of an alcohol use"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":609.99,"endTime":613.71,"body":"disorder of dependence, those"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":613.71,"endTime":616.11,"body":"two individuals are very"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":613.71,"endTime":616.11,"body":"different. The treatments that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":616.11,"endTime":619.59,"body":"work for them might also be"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":616.11,"endTime":619.59,"body":"different, right? So if we're,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":619.62,"endTime":623.25,"body":"you know, saying somebody meets"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":619.62,"endTime":623.25,"body":"criteria on the basis of meeting"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":623.25,"endTime":626.34,"body":"to have these symptoms,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":623.25,"endTime":626.34,"body":"although, for example, like a"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":626.34,"endTime":629.19,"body":"clinician, myself might"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":626.34,"endTime":629.19,"body":"recognise, oh, this person's"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":629.19,"endTime":633.21,"body":"experiencing withdrawal that's"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":629.19,"endTime":633.21,"body":"quite serious, perhaps this"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":633.21,"endTime":636.09,"body":"person's having interpersonal"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":633.21,"endTime":636.09,"body":"problems, perhaps that's less"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":636.09,"endTime":638.37,"body":"serious. I don't necessarily"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":636.09,"endTime":638.37,"body":"know that that's always"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":638.37,"endTime":641.43,"body":"informing the treatment"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":638.37,"endTime":641.43,"body":"decisions. And that's, that's"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":641.43,"endTime":643.92,"body":"partially because the treatment"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":641.43,"endTime":643.92,"body":"decisions are impacted by a lot"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":643.92,"endTime":647.25,"body":"of other factors, right, like,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":643.92,"endTime":647.25,"body":"what's available there? Or"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":647.25,"endTime":652.11,"body":"what's reimbursed? What the What"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":647.25,"endTime":652.11,"body":"the clinicians training isn't?"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":652.89,"endTime":656.85,"body":"So, you know, yes, in practice,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":652.89,"endTime":656.85,"body":"these things are probably being"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":656.85,"endTime":661.65,"body":"considered, but our ability to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":656.85,"endTime":661.65,"body":"actually respond appropriately"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":661.65,"endTime":664.89,"body":"to those differences. Just, I"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":661.65,"endTime":664.89,"body":"don't think we're quite there"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":664.89,"endTime":665.25,"body":"yet."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":665.58,"endTime":671.1,"body":"So what about this"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":665.58,"endTime":671.1,"body":"idea of dimensionality? So, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":671.1,"endTime":674.7,"body":"know, you said at the start that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":671.1,"endTime":674.7,"body":"alcohol use disorder, or alcohol"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":674.7,"endTime":677.88,"body":"use and problems, as I kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":674.7,"endTime":677.88,"body":"like to say it, they are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":677.91,"endTime":680.79,"body":"obviously on a continuum in the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":677.91,"endTime":680.79,"body":"sense that, you know, you can"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":680.94,"endTime":684.09,"body":"drink a little bit, and then you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":680.94,"endTime":684.09,"body":"can drink a bit more, and that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":684.09,"endTime":688.35,"body":"then increases risk of a host of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":684.09,"endTime":688.35,"body":"different problems. So, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":688.35,"endTime":691.68,"body":"know, one sense very logically,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":688.35,"endTime":691.68,"body":"alcohol use is on a continuum."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":691.8,"endTime":694.8,"body":"But then we've got this kind of,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":691.8,"endTime":694.8,"body":"is it kind of multi"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":694.8,"endTime":698.49,"body":"dimensionality where you might"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":694.8,"endTime":698.49,"body":"look at different types of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":698.49,"endTime":701.37,"body":"problems or aspects of it, and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":698.49,"endTime":701.37,"body":"then they would exist on their"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":701.37,"endTime":702.66,"body":"own dimensions?"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":702.84,"endTime":705.39,"body":"Yeah, so one of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":702.84,"endTime":705.39,"body":"the really interesting things"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":705.39,"endTime":710.01,"body":"here is that DSM five says, you"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":705.39,"endTime":710.01,"body":"know, alcohol use disorder is"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":710.19,"endTime":713.82,"body":"unidimensional, which means that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":710.19,"endTime":713.82,"body":"it's kind of this one thing that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":713.82,"endTime":716.91,"body":"exists on a continuum, right,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":713.82,"endTime":716.91,"body":"like from low to high. Alcohol"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":716.91,"endTime":719.91,"body":"Use Disorder exists from low to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":716.91,"endTime":719.91,"body":"high severity, and that that is"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":719.91,"endTime":722.85,"body":"what it is. But then when"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":719.91,"endTime":722.85,"body":"they're in the DSM, when they're"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":722.85,"endTime":726.0,"body":"describing what an alcohol use"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":722.85,"endTime":726.0,"body":"disorder is, they say that these"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":726.0,"endTime":729.99,"body":"symptoms cluster into like these"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":726.0,"endTime":729.99,"body":"symptom clusters, and then those"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":729.99,"endTime":733.47,"body":"are like subsets of symptoms,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":729.99,"endTime":733.47,"body":"which would actually imply that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":733.47,"endTime":737.22,"body":"perhaps alcohol use disorder"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":733.47,"endTime":737.22,"body":"isn't, you know, dimensional,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":737.22,"endTime":740.4,"body":"and you know, that those"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":737.22,"endTime":740.4,"body":"symptoms are all like the same"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":740.4,"endTime":744.09,"body":"thing, essentially. So part of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":740.4,"endTime":744.09,"body":"what myself and Dr. Ashley"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":744.09,"endTime":748.86,"body":"watts, who who led this recent"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":744.09,"endTime":748.86,"body":"paper found that as you add in"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":748.86,"endTime":752.79,"body":"more indicators of an alcohol"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":748.86,"endTime":752.79,"body":"use disorder, so as you assess"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":752.79,"endTime":756.75,"body":"it with more items, rather than"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":752.79,"endTime":756.75,"body":"just those 11 symptoms, let's"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":756.75,"endTime":761.1,"body":"say, we assess it with 50, or"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":756.75,"endTime":761.1,"body":"with 80, that we actually start"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":761.1,"endTime":765.18,"body":"to see kind of those indicators"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":761.1,"endTime":765.18,"body":"of there being kind of multiple"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":765.18,"endTime":769.32,"body":"dimensions, just statistically"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":765.18,"endTime":769.32,"body":"that those start to suggest that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":769.32,"endTime":771.84,"body":"there actually is dimensionality"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":769.32,"endTime":771.84,"body":"here that there are kind of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":771.84,"endTime":776.82,"body":"these more homogenous clusters"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":771.84,"endTime":776.82,"body":"of symptoms, that group together"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":776.82,"endTime":780.48,"body":"that perhaps implies that, you"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":776.82,"endTime":780.48,"body":"know, alcohol use disorder isn't"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":780.48,"endTime":783.78,"body":"just this homogenous construct"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":780.48,"endTime":783.78,"body":"that you can assess equally with"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":783.78,"endTime":786.84,"body":"11 symptoms. So it you know, in"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":783.78,"endTime":786.84,"body":"many ways, supports the previous"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":786.84,"endTime":790.11,"body":"work I had done, but also builds"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":786.84,"endTime":790.11,"body":"on it to show that as we get"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":790.11,"endTime":793.56,"body":"more fine grained assessments of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":790.11,"endTime":793.56,"body":"alcohol use disorder, we really"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":793.56,"endTime":795.9,"body":"start to see kind of more of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":793.56,"endTime":795.9,"body":"that splitting of the types of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":795.9,"endTime":799.11,"body":"things people might experience."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":795.9,"endTime":799.11,"body":"So it really does seem to be the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":799.11,"endTime":802.23,"body":"case that as you add in more"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":799.11,"endTime":802.23,"body":"information above and beyond"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":802.23,"endTime":805.59,"body":"these, just like 11 symptoms"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":802.23,"endTime":805.59,"body":"that you typically ask somebody"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":805.59,"endTime":812.22,"body":"about, we do start to see kind"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":805.59,"endTime":812.22,"body":"of these more distinct groupings"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":812.22,"endTime":814.26,"body":"of symptoms, which is really"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":812.22,"endTime":814.26,"body":"then helpful when you're"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":814.26,"endTime":817.32,"body":"thinking about, you know,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":814.26,"endTime":817.32,"body":"profiles for people individually"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":817.32,"endTime":820.86,"body":"in a person's profile of risk,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":817.32,"endTime":820.86,"body":"or perhaps where they're"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":820.86,"endTime":824.67,"body":"experiencing the most"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":820.86,"endTime":824.67,"body":"impairment, that's causing them"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":824.67,"endTime":827.49,"body":"to meet criteria for this"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":824.67,"endTime":827.49,"body":"alcohol use disorder. So it's,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":827.52,"endTime":830.52,"body":"it's quite odd to me, and I"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":827.52,"endTime":830.52,"body":"haven't been able to resolve it"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":830.52,"endTime":835.35,"body":"fully why the DSM says, this is"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":830.52,"endTime":835.35,"body":"some sort of like, single factor"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":835.35,"endTime":838.47,"body":"unidimensional factor, when"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":835.35,"endTime":838.47,"body":"really, they then contradict"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":838.47,"endTime":840.96,"body":"themselves by saying these are"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":838.47,"endTime":840.96,"body":"their, their these domains. And"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":840.96,"endTime":843.93,"body":"I think probably a large part of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":840.96,"endTime":843.93,"body":"that has been that they're just"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":843.93,"endTime":848.01,"body":"not really assessing it as in"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":843.93,"endTime":848.01,"body":"depth as they should be to get"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":848.01,"endTime":852.0,"body":"that level of information. And,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":848.01,"endTime":852.0,"body":"yeah, it's, that's what's been"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":852.0,"endTime":855.54,"body":"interesting about our work in"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":852.0,"endTime":855.54,"body":"this area is we've, we've had"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":855.57,"endTime":860.25,"body":"the ability to ask, you know, 90"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":855.57,"endTime":860.25,"body":"indicators of alcohol use"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":860.25,"endTime":864.0,"body":"disorder to people, whereas"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":860.25,"endTime":864.0,"body":"typically, this research related"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":864.0,"endTime":867.09,"body":"to DSM five is done with these,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":864.0,"endTime":867.09,"body":"like large epidemiologic studies"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":867.09,"endTime":870.63,"body":"that can add you know, 90 items"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":867.09,"endTime":870.63,"body":"on alcohol use disorder in them."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":870.81,"endTime":874.02,"body":"So to some degree,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":870.81,"endTime":874.02,"body":"it's just the kind of tension"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":874.02,"endTime":879.72,"body":"between conceptual utility that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":874.02,"endTime":879.72,"body":"you know, we want to say there's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":879.72,"endTime":883.68,"body":"alcohol problems as a kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":879.72,"endTime":883.68,"body":"catch all and in some ways, it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":883.68,"endTime":888.12,"body":"makes it easy theoretically to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":883.68,"endTime":888.12,"body":"say, you know, these exists in a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":888.12,"endTime":891.69,"body":"continuum of severity. But of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":888.12,"endTime":891.69,"body":"course then when we want to do"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":891.78,"endTime":896.28,"body":"detailed research and understand"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":891.78,"endTime":896.28,"body":"causes, different manifestations"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":896.28,"endTime":899.46,"body":"and different populations, for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":896.28,"endTime":899.46,"body":"different treatments, etc. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":899.46,"endTime":902.73,"body":"we have to sort row back and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":899.46,"endTime":902.73,"body":"unpick it all a bit. So but but"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":902.73,"endTime":906.27,"body":"you know, the like the the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":902.73,"endTime":906.27,"body":"continuum model, I think is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":906.27,"endTime":909.87,"body":"useful in the sense that in the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":906.27,"endTime":909.87,"body":"general population, people think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":909.87,"endTime":913.44,"body":"about it as two categories."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":909.87,"endTime":913.44,"body":"Either you have a problem or you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":913.44,"endTime":916.98,"body":"don't. And, you know, like,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":913.44,"endTime":916.98,"body":"famously that, you know, a large"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":916.98,"endTime":920.07,"body":"part of that derives from a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":916.98,"endTime":920.07,"body":"medical model, particularly sort"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":920.07,"endTime":923.16,"body":"of medical model of alcoholism"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":920.07,"endTime":923.16,"body":"as such, where, you know, you'd"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":923.16,"endTime":926.25,"body":"either be an alcoholic or not."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":923.16,"endTime":926.25,"body":"So you know, we want we want a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":926.25,"endTime":930.39,"body":"kind of more continuum aligned"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":926.25,"endTime":930.39,"body":"model of thinking in terms of in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":930.39,"endTime":933.93,"body":"terms of the public so they can"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":930.39,"endTime":933.93,"body":"go well, yeah, maybe I'm, I'm"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":933.93,"endTime":936.72,"body":"drinking a bit much. And maybe"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":933.93,"endTime":936.72,"body":"there are risks to that. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":936.72,"endTime":939.63,"body":"there's be some benefits are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":936.72,"endTime":939.63,"body":"cutting down a bit, that that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":939.87,"endTime":943.86,"body":"kind of conceptual continuing"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":939.87,"endTime":943.86,"body":"would be better in a in a more"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":943.86,"endTime":947.79,"body":"broader understanding. But yeah,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":943.86,"endTime":947.79,"body":"for kind of our research and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":947.79,"endTime":950.58,"body":"scientific purposes, we have to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":947.79,"endTime":950.58,"body":"say, Actually, wait a minute,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":950.58,"endTime":954.0,"body":"it's it's a bit more complex"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":950.58,"endTime":954.0,"body":"than a single unit dimensional"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":954.03,"endTime":954.78,"body":"construct."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":954.96,"endTime":957.6,"body":"Oh, it's it's so"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":954.96,"endTime":957.6,"body":"complex. And I think that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":957.6,"endTime":960.63,"body":"there's this growing"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":957.6,"endTime":960.63,"body":"understanding that at least the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":960.63,"endTime":965.64,"body":"11 criteria used to assess DSM,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":960.63,"endTime":965.64,"body":"five AUD are are not equally"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":965.64,"endTime":968.04,"body":"severe, right, I think there's,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":965.64,"endTime":968.04,"body":"there's kind of we're moving"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":968.04,"endTime":971.97,"body":"towards consensus on that. What"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":968.04,"endTime":971.97,"body":"is less understood, and what is"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":971.97,"endTime":975.15,"body":"less talked about that I'm"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":971.97,"endTime":975.15,"body":"really interested in, is, you"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":975.15,"endTime":979.77,"body":"know, within a given symptom, so"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":975.15,"endTime":979.77,"body":"let's say craving, for example,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":979.8,"endTime":983.4,"body":"there's variation within craving"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":979.8,"endTime":983.4,"body":"itself, right. So somebody can"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":983.4,"endTime":986.46,"body":"be low on that somebody can be"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":983.4,"endTime":986.46,"body":"high on that. And then depending"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":986.46,"endTime":990.54,"body":"on the item that you're using to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":986.46,"endTime":990.54,"body":"assess for craving, you could be"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":990.54,"endTime":993.39,"body":"capturing very different people,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":990.54,"endTime":993.39,"body":"depending on where they fall in"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":993.39,"endTime":996.72,"body":"that continuum. And what the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":993.39,"endTime":996.72,"body":"item is actually assessing. And"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":996.72,"endTime":1000.02,"body":"so, you know, really, there's,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":996.72,"endTime":1000.02,"body":"there's, you know,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1000.02,"endTime":1003.23,"body":"dimensionality within each of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1000.02,"endTime":1003.23,"body":"these symptoms themselves and"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1003.23,"endTime":1007.28,"body":"how we assess them. And that's"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1003.23,"endTime":1007.28,"body":"one of my other kind of soapbox,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1007.28,"endTime":1010.31,"body":"as I go on is about, you know,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1007.28,"endTime":1010.31,"body":"measurement. And do we actually"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1010.31,"endTime":1013.16,"body":"measure what we think we're"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1010.31,"endTime":1013.16,"body":"measuring? And do participants"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1013.16,"endTime":1016.97,"body":"understand or items? Because all"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1013.16,"endTime":1016.97,"body":"of that plays in here?"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1017.36,"endTime":1020.9,"body":"Yeah. And across"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1017.36,"endTime":1020.9,"body":"social psychology at large, for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1020.9,"endTime":1023.9,"body":"sure. Yeah. And then so what,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1020.9,"endTime":1023.9,"body":"what are some of the other"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1023.9,"endTime":1028.19,"body":"interesting findings or key"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1023.9,"endTime":1028.19,"body":"characteristics? Would you say"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1028.19,"endTime":1032.36,"body":"have a kind of more useful"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1028.19,"endTime":1032.36,"body":"formulation or idea of, of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1032.36,"endTime":1035.27,"body":"alcohol problems or alcohol use"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1032.36,"endTime":1035.27,"body":"disorder? I mean, you know, one"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1035.27,"endTime":1037.04,"body":"of the interesting things I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1035.27,"endTime":1037.04,"body":"think you found is that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1037.1,"endTime":1041.57,"body":"tolerance, perhaps isn't is not"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1037.1,"endTime":1041.57,"body":"as closely linked to things that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1041.57,"endTime":1043.82,"body":"we'd expect it to be like,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1041.57,"endTime":1043.82,"body":"withdraw?"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1043.849,"endTime":1047.569,"body":"Yeah. So I think"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1043.849,"endTime":1047.569,"body":"there is this idea, right, that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1047.569,"endTime":1051.109,"body":"tolerance and withdrawal tend to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1047.569,"endTime":1051.109,"body":"kind of lump together because"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1051.109,"endTime":1055.099,"body":"they're both these kind of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1051.109,"endTime":1055.099,"body":"physiological adaptations to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1055.129,"endTime":1060.169,"body":"prolonged use. And in that paper"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1055.129,"endTime":1060.169,"body":"that was led by Dr. Ashley watt,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1060.169,"endTime":1063.199,"body":"she really found that actually,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1060.169,"endTime":1063.199,"body":"those two things weren't hanging"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1063.199,"endTime":1067.429,"body":"together so much. And I believe"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1063.199,"endTime":1067.429,"body":"that's actually been supported"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1068.239,"endTime":1071.149,"body":"in analyses that look at kind of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1068.239,"endTime":1071.149,"body":"the the genotypic level, or the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1071.149,"endTime":1074.389,"body":"genetic level of some of these"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1071.149,"endTime":1074.389,"body":"things, that those, those"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1074.389,"endTime":1077.269,"body":"constructs actually don't really"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1074.389,"endTime":1077.269,"body":"hang together in the way that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1077.269,"endTime":1080.359,"body":"they're supposed to,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1077.269,"endTime":1080.359,"body":"conceptually based on how"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1080.359,"endTime":1084.169,"body":"they're conveyed in the DSM. So"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1080.359,"endTime":1084.169,"body":"yeah, oftentimes, I'm left with"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1084.169,"endTime":1085.309,"body":"just a lot of questions."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1086.03,"endTime":1088.25,"body":"So I guess people"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1086.03,"endTime":1088.25,"body":"would just sort of assume that,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1088.25,"endTime":1090.44,"body":"you know, the more you drink,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1088.25,"endTime":1090.44,"body":"the more tolerant you get, and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1090.44,"endTime":1092.15,"body":"the more tolerant you get, the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1090.44,"endTime":1092.15,"body":"more you're going to have a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1092.15,"endTime":1095.0,"body":"withdrawal. But it goes back to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1092.15,"endTime":1095.0,"body":"what we've been saying that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1095.0,"endTime":1098.03,"body":"actually not just our"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1095.0,"endTime":1098.03,"body":"physiology, but the environment"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1098.03,"endTime":1101.6,"body":"that we drink in and are kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1098.03,"endTime":1101.6,"body":"psychological mechanisms, and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1101.63,"endTime":1105.5,"body":"all those kinds of things are so"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1101.63,"endTime":1105.5,"body":"complex and nuanced and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1105.53,"endTime":1108.62,"body":"interacting, that, you know, it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1105.53,"endTime":1108.62,"body":"kind of makes sense as well,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1108.62,"endTime":1110.39,"body":"when you're on picking that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1108.62,"endTime":1110.39,"body":"actually, maybe they're not"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1110.39,"endTime":1113.39,"body":"related anywhere near as closely"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1110.39,"endTime":1113.39,"body":"as you might assume on"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1113.51,"endTime":1116.54,"body":"Yeah, and I don't"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1113.51,"endTime":1116.54,"body":"know, you know, I, I still have"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1116.54,"endTime":1119.54,"body":"a little bit of like, unease"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1116.54,"endTime":1119.54,"body":"about that, about those kind of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1119.54,"endTime":1123.26,"body":"separating out because one of my"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1119.54,"endTime":1123.26,"body":"concerns, and I don't know that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1123.26,"endTime":1126.53,"body":"I don't know that Dr. Watts"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1123.26,"endTime":1126.53,"body":"agrees with me on this. So she"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1126.53,"endTime":1130.31,"body":"can she can chime in, on"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1126.53,"endTime":1130.31,"body":"Twitter, or wherever, you know,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1130.31,"endTime":1134.03,"body":"this, this shows up. But I"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1130.31,"endTime":1134.03,"body":"really think at least tolerance"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1134.03,"endTime":1137.24,"body":"is one of the symptoms, that's"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1134.03,"endTime":1137.24,"body":"the hardest to assess. And"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1137.24,"endTime":1140.15,"body":"there's some research showing"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1137.24,"endTime":1140.15,"body":"some qualitative research"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1140.18,"endTime":1143.27,"body":"showing that at least among"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1140.18,"endTime":1143.27,"body":"adolescents, that tolerance is"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1143.27,"endTime":1145.97,"body":"one of the most misunderstood"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1143.27,"endTime":1145.97,"body":"criteria of alcohol use"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1145.97,"endTime":1148.85,"body":"disorder. So when you're asking"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1145.97,"endTime":1148.85,"body":"somebody, you know, questions"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1148.85,"endTime":1152.18,"body":"from a structured interview,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1148.85,"endTime":1152.18,"body":"intended to assess for an"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1152.18,"endTime":1156.38,"body":"alcohol use disorder, tolerance"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1152.18,"endTime":1156.38,"body":"is commonly misunderstood. So"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1156.41,"endTime":1159.2,"body":"what I asked myself sometimes"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1156.41,"endTime":1159.2,"body":"when looking at these data is,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1159.2,"endTime":1161.42,"body":"you know, are we actually"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1159.2,"endTime":1161.42,"body":"assessing tolerance? Like we"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1161.42,"endTime":1164.03,"body":"think we are, is this just kind"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1161.42,"endTime":1164.03,"body":"of a measurement issue we're"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1164.03,"endTime":1167.69,"body":"seeing with these two constructs"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1164.03,"endTime":1167.69,"body":"separating? Or is this actually"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1167.69,"endTime":1171.35,"body":"true? So it's really complex."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1167.69,"endTime":1171.35,"body":"Can"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1171.35,"endTime":1173.69,"body":"you say a bit"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1171.35,"endTime":1173.69,"body":"about the way in which you think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1173.72,"endTime":1175.67,"body":"tolerance might be"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1173.72,"endTime":1175.67,"body":"misunderstood?"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1176.45,"endTime":1181.76,"body":"Yeah, I. So part"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1176.45,"endTime":1181.76,"body":"of what I got really into during"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1181.76,"endTime":1185.42,"body":"my PhD was this this thing"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1181.76,"endTime":1185.42,"body":"called cognitive interviewing,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1185.45,"endTime":1188.81,"body":"which is a kind of a way to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1185.45,"endTime":1188.81,"body":"assess whether or not"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1188.81,"endTime":1192.65,"body":"participants are understanding"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1188.81,"endTime":1192.65,"body":"items in the way that you intend"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1192.65,"endTime":1196.43,"body":"for them to understand them. So"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1192.65,"endTime":1196.43,"body":"some of this some of my concerns"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1196.43,"endTime":1200.45,"body":"about tolerance come from my own"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1196.43,"endTime":1200.45,"body":"work, but also comes From other"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1200.45,"endTime":1205.49,"body":"researchers, so tolerance is"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1200.45,"endTime":1205.49,"body":"tricky, because it kind of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1205.49,"endTime":1209.12,"body":"implies that there's some sort"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1205.49,"endTime":1209.12,"body":"of like, acquired adaptation"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1209.12,"endTime":1213.23,"body":"right like with with us over"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1209.12,"endTime":1213.23,"body":"time you somehow become tolerant"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1213.26,"endTime":1218.72,"body":"to the alcohol. And there's"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1213.26,"endTime":1218.72,"body":"different ways that this has"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1218.72,"endTime":1223.13,"body":"assessed. One of the questions,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1218.72,"endTime":1223.13,"body":"for example, is like, did you"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1223.13,"endTime":1226.7,"body":"find that your usual number of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1223.13,"endTime":1226.7,"body":"drinks had much less an effect"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1226.7,"endTime":1229.31,"body":"on you than it once did"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1226.7,"endTime":1229.31,"body":"questions like that, that kind"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1229.31,"endTime":1231.8,"body":"of, you know, because of the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1229.31,"endTime":1231.8,"body":"nature of tolerance being"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1231.8,"endTime":1235.34,"body":"acquired, it requires you to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1231.8,"endTime":1235.34,"body":"kind of assess now versus"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1235.34,"endTime":1238.85,"body":"sometime in the past, right? So"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1235.34,"endTime":1238.85,"body":"part of what I think is"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1238.85,"endTime":1241.97,"body":"difficult there is it really"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1238.85,"endTime":1241.97,"body":"depends on what the participant"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1241.97,"endTime":1245.42,"body":"is using as their frame of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1241.97,"endTime":1245.42,"body":"reference. Right. So then you"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1245.42,"endTime":1248.6,"body":"once did, did it have much less"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1245.42,"endTime":1248.6,"body":"of an effect than it once did?"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1248.69,"endTime":1251.06,"body":"Well, what is that referring to?"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1248.69,"endTime":1251.06,"body":"Is that referring to like,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1251.3,"endTime":1253.97,"body":"before I even started drinking?"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1251.3,"endTime":1253.97,"body":"Is that referring to when I was"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1253.97,"endTime":1257.69,"body":"21? drinking every day all the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1253.97,"endTime":1257.69,"body":"time? Like, what is the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1257.69,"endTime":1260.84,"body":"reference period that we're"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1257.69,"endTime":1260.84,"body":"referring to, and we're asking"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1260.84,"endTime":1263.36,"body":"this person if they've"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1260.84,"endTime":1263.36,"body":"experienced tolerance, and in my"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1263.36,"endTime":1267.38,"body":"experience with participants,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1263.36,"endTime":1267.38,"body":"they choose wildly varying"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1267.38,"endTime":1270.86,"body":"reference points to compare"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1267.38,"endTime":1270.86,"body":"their current kind of used to."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1271.52,"endTime":1274.46,"body":"So it becomes really challenging"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1271.52,"endTime":1274.46,"body":"to feel confident that you're"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1274.46,"endTime":1277.28,"body":"kind of consistently assessing"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1274.46,"endTime":1277.28,"body":"the same construct when you're"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1277.28,"endTime":1281.3,"body":"asking this question to people."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1277.28,"endTime":1281.3,"body":"So I just, I doubt it. I doubt"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1281.3,"endTime":1282.86,"body":"the measurement of tolerance."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1281.3,"endTime":1282.86,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1282.859,"endTime":1284.959,"body":"that seems"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1282.859,"endTime":1284.959,"body":"legitimate, like so many other"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1284.959,"endTime":1287.929,"body":"confound as well that, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1284.959,"endTime":1287.929,"body":"just those questions, don't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1287.929,"endTime":1291.199,"body":"control for, like, you know, a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1287.929,"endTime":1291.199,"body":"situation that they were in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1291.559,"endTime":1295.429,"body":"thinking back to, how their"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1291.559,"endTime":1295.429,"body":"drinking took place, then and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1295.429,"endTime":1299.299,"body":"then how it might take place"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1295.429,"endTime":1299.299,"body":"now, etc. And what are some of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1299.299,"endTime":1303.019,"body":"the other core components of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1299.299,"endTime":1303.019,"body":"alcohol problems that you think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1303.019,"endTime":1306.559,"body":"are really important? So you've"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1303.019,"endTime":1306.559,"body":"developed this kind of new"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1306.559,"endTime":1309.889,"body":"framework kind of model for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1306.559,"endTime":1309.889,"body":"exploring alcohol problems that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1309.919,"endTime":1313.579,"body":"builds in a lot more of these"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1309.919,"endTime":1313.579,"body":"kind of issues? Or questions"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1313.579,"endTime":1316.609,"body":"that are really important? So So"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1313.579,"endTime":1316.609,"body":"what kind of is that model? In a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1316.609,"endTime":1320.179,"body":"very, if it's possible to break"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1316.609,"endTime":1320.179,"body":"it down? A bit? And what was the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1320.179,"endTime":1321.829,"body":"key kind of Yeah, aspects?"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1322.25,"endTime":1326.15,"body":"Yeah, so I know,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1322.25,"endTime":1326.15,"body":"as maybe has been gathered by"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1326.15,"endTime":1329.57,"body":"now is like, I'm really"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1326.15,"endTime":1329.57,"body":"challenged by this idea that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1329.57,"endTime":1333.29,"body":"our, our diagnoses focus on the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1329.57,"endTime":1333.29,"body":"psychosocial consequences,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1333.62,"endTime":1336.56,"body":"largely right, of course, the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1333.62,"endTime":1336.56,"body":"other physiologic components,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1336.56,"endTime":1340.1,"body":"but I think, focusing on the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1336.56,"endTime":1340.1,"body":"psychosocial problems as a"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1340.1,"endTime":1343.34,"body":"challenge, because they could be"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1340.1,"endTime":1343.34,"body":"caused by so many things other"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1343.34,"endTime":1346.7,"body":"than just alcohol use, right?"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1343.34,"endTime":1346.7,"body":"And so part of what I've thought"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1346.7,"endTime":1351.14,"body":"a tonne about in recent years is"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1346.7,"endTime":1351.14,"body":"how can we how can we find a"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1351.14,"endTime":1355.58,"body":"better approach? You know, and"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1351.14,"endTime":1355.58,"body":"one thing that the DSM five"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1355.61,"endTime":1359.51,"body":"doesn't really speak to is the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1355.61,"endTime":1359.51,"body":"aetiology of these disorders? Or"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1359.51,"endTime":1363.02,"body":"what causes them, right? What"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1359.51,"endTime":1363.02,"body":"are the processes, you know, are"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1363.02,"endTime":1367.31,"body":"there cognitive or psychological"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1363.02,"endTime":1367.31,"body":"or biological or neurobiological"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1367.34,"endTime":1370.85,"body":"that cause somebody to then"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1367.34,"endTime":1370.85,"body":"develop an alcohol use disorder"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1370.85,"endTime":1374.27,"body":"or alcohol problem, and that's"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1370.85,"endTime":1374.27,"body":"where I've really focused, this"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1374.27,"endTime":1378.59,"body":"new framework is looking at the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1374.27,"endTime":1378.59,"body":"processes themselves, not the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1378.59,"endTime":1383.21,"body":"manifestation, or the phenotype,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1378.59,"endTime":1383.21,"body":"or the consequence that results"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1383.21,"endTime":1386.72,"body":"from these processes, but the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1383.21,"endTime":1386.72,"body":"actual processes themselves. And"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1386.72,"endTime":1391.31,"body":"I am a really big fan of this"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1386.72,"endTime":1391.31,"body":"approach, because it moves away"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1391.31,"endTime":1394.58,"body":"from some of the issues that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1391.31,"endTime":1394.58,"body":"I've mentioned already. Right?"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1394.58,"endTime":1397.52,"body":"And in terms of, you know, what"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1394.58,"endTime":1397.52,"body":"is actually driving an alcohol"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1397.52,"endTime":1400.31,"body":"use disorder, we can't always"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1397.52,"endTime":1400.31,"body":"answer that when we just purely"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1400.31,"endTime":1403.61,"body":"asked about the psychosocial"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1400.31,"endTime":1403.61,"body":"consequences. So this allows us"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1403.61,"endTime":1406.7,"body":"to, you know, more directly,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1403.61,"endTime":1406.7,"body":"say, you know, what are the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1406.7,"endTime":1411.05,"body":"processes that are happening"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1406.7,"endTime":1411.05,"body":"cognitively or psychologically,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1411.05,"endTime":1414.02,"body":"that's increasing somebody's"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1411.05,"endTime":1414.02,"body":"risk. And the way that I've"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1414.02,"endTime":1417.38,"body":"organised kind of those"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1414.02,"endTime":1417.38,"body":"mechanisms, which are not"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1417.38,"endTime":1421.01,"body":"mechanisms that I just like,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1417.38,"endTime":1421.01,"body":"created, I did a pretty"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1421.58,"endTime":1425.45,"body":"systematic literature review on"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1421.58,"endTime":1425.45,"body":"kind of, you know, what are the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1425.48,"endTime":1430.13,"body":"evidence based mechanisms for"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1425.48,"endTime":1430.13,"body":"alcohol use disorder aetiology"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1430.13,"endTime":1433.91,"body":"in the literature, and they"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1430.13,"endTime":1433.91,"body":"really, they really kind of hang"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1433.91,"endTime":1437.66,"body":"together and what I would refer"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1433.91,"endTime":1437.66,"body":"to as like these higher order"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1437.69,"endTime":1441.68,"body":"mechanisms or processes, so at"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1437.69,"endTime":1441.68,"body":"the highest level of this"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1441.68,"endTime":1445.52,"body":"framework, we have things like"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1441.68,"endTime":1445.52,"body":"dysregulation and cognitive"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1445.52,"endTime":1449.99,"body":"control, reward dysregulation"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1445.52,"endTime":1449.99,"body":"and negative emotionality or"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1449.99,"endTime":1451.16,"body":"negative effect. So"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1451.46,"endTime":1454.22,"body":"say negative"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1451.46,"endTime":1454.22,"body":"effect would be like having high"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1454.22,"endTime":1458.3,"body":"anxiety in lay terms. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1454.22,"endTime":1458.3,"body":"exactly right about the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1458.3,"endTime":1461.51,"body":"cognitive ones that you said at"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1458.3,"endTime":1461.51,"body":"the start, what would they be to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1461.51,"endTime":1462.83,"body":"sort of everyday pass?"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1462.89,"endTime":1465.8,"body":"Yeah, that would"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1462.89,"endTime":1465.8,"body":"be something like impulsivity,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1465.83,"endTime":1469.85,"body":"right, or what we sometimes"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1465.83,"endTime":1469.85,"body":"refer to as like disinhibition"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1469.85,"endTime":1472.52,"body":"having a hard time kind of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1469.85,"endTime":1472.52,"body":"stopping yourself from engaging"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1472.52,"endTime":1476.78,"body":"in a behaviour and then just to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1472.52,"endTime":1476.78,"body":"be comprehensive, the reward"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1476.78,"endTime":1482.06,"body":"related processes there would be"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1476.78,"endTime":1482.06,"body":"things like sensitivity to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1482.06,"endTime":1485.81,"body":"alcohol, when you you know, when"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1482.06,"endTime":1485.81,"body":"you drink alcohol, do you"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1485.81,"endTime":1491.6,"body":"experience the same pleasurable"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1485.81,"endTime":1491.6,"body":"effects as other people for"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1491.6,"endTime":1492.2,"body":"example,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1492.26,"endTime":1494.54,"body":"they could all be"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1492.26,"endTime":1494.54,"body":"kind of they're probably all"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1494.66,"endTime":1497.51,"body":"complex and interlinked, as well"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1494.66,"endTime":1497.51,"body":"because you know, your perceived"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1497.51,"endTime":1500.96,"body":"pleasure might be directly"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1497.51,"endTime":1500.96,"body":"related to how much It relieves"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1500.96,"endTime":1504.59,"body":"your negative emotionality or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1500.96,"endTime":1504.59,"body":"your anxiety or whatever. So,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1504.77,"endTime":1507.62,"body":"absolutely, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1504.77,"endTime":1507.62,"body":"these are, these are definitely"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1507.62,"endTime":1511.49,"body":"interconnected. And I think, you"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1507.62,"endTime":1511.49,"body":"know, that's definitely a"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1511.49,"endTime":1515.18,"body":"challenge for kind of this kind"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1511.49,"endTime":1515.18,"body":"of framework is thinking about,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1515.21,"endTime":1519.02,"body":"you know, the overlap and trying"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1515.21,"endTime":1519.02,"body":"to try to parse apart things"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1519.02,"endTime":1522.62,"body":"that are so interconnected, you"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1519.02,"endTime":1522.62,"body":"know, perhaps more related to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1522.62,"endTime":1526.07,"body":"some processes like reward at"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1522.62,"endTime":1526.07,"body":"different stages of the, you"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1526.07,"endTime":1529.55,"body":"know, addiction or as you you"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1526.07,"endTime":1529.55,"body":"know, use for a longer period,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1529.55,"endTime":1532.34,"body":"it becomes more driven by"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1529.55,"endTime":1532.34,"body":"negative emotionality, for"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1532.34,"endTime":1537.71,"body":"example. So what I really like"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1532.34,"endTime":1537.71,"body":"about this framework as it talks"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1537.71,"endTime":1541.94,"body":"about these higher order kind of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1537.71,"endTime":1541.94,"body":"components, and in some ways,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1541.94,"endTime":1545.57,"body":"that's what I was talking about"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1541.94,"endTime":1545.57,"body":"before, when, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1545.57,"endTime":1548.57,"body":"alcohol use disorder symptoms"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1545.57,"endTime":1548.57,"body":"kind of hang together in these"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1548.57,"endTime":1552.17,"body":"groups, this is similar, but"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1548.57,"endTime":1552.17,"body":"with a focus on mechanisms"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1552.17,"endTime":1556.19,"body":"instead of consequences. And"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1552.17,"endTime":1556.19,"body":"what's cool about this, I think,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1556.19,"endTime":1559.04,"body":"is that we can really start to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1556.19,"endTime":1559.04,"body":"think about, you know, if"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1559.04,"endTime":1564.44,"body":"negative emotionality is really,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1559.04,"endTime":1564.44,"body":"you know, the driving process"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1564.44,"endTime":1568.76,"body":"for somebody in your office with"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1564.44,"endTime":1568.76,"body":"an alcohol use disorder, and"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1568.76,"endTime":1572.84,"body":"they're also experiencing like"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1568.76,"endTime":1572.84,"body":"comorbid major depression, for"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1572.84,"endTime":1576.08,"body":"example, which is also largely"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1572.84,"endTime":1576.08,"body":"driven by negative emotionality."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1576.53,"endTime":1580.52,"body":"Can we address that those"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1576.53,"endTime":1580.52,"body":"symptoms with a treatment that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1580.52,"endTime":1584.24,"body":"kind of more broadly assesses"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1580.52,"endTime":1584.24,"body":"negative emotionality, and then"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1584.24,"endTime":1588.32,"body":"kind of has improvements for"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1584.24,"endTime":1588.32,"body":"both alcohol use and major"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1588.32,"endTime":1591.74,"body":"depressive disorder or major"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1588.32,"endTime":1591.74,"body":"depressive episode? So what I"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1591.74,"endTime":1594.5,"body":"like about this framework is it"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1591.74,"endTime":1594.5,"body":"really can help us kind of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1594.8,"endTime":1598.31,"body":"address the comorbidity that we"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1594.8,"endTime":1598.31,"body":"know is there the CO occurrence"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1598.34,"endTime":1604.07,"body":"of disorders. And also, it can"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1598.34,"endTime":1604.07,"body":"really, you know, like, I've"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1604.07,"endTime":1608.33,"body":"heard you talk about a lot, if"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1604.07,"endTime":1608.33,"body":"somebody for whatever reason, is"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1608.33,"endTime":1612.95,"body":"hesitant to kind of identify"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1608.33,"endTime":1612.95,"body":"with these alcohol use disorder"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1612.95,"endTime":1616.46,"body":"symptoms or problems. And"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1612.95,"endTime":1616.46,"body":"they're not really open to like"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1616.46,"endTime":1619.4,"body":"focusing on that solely in"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1616.46,"endTime":1619.4,"body":"treatment, but they are"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1619.43,"endTime":1622.85,"body":"experiencing these symptoms,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1619.43,"endTime":1622.85,"body":"perhaps it's fine to come at it"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1622.85,"endTime":1626.54,"body":"and say, you know, you're also"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1622.85,"endTime":1626.54,"body":"experiencing this anxiety or"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1626.54,"endTime":1629.78,"body":"this depression, would you be"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1626.54,"endTime":1629.78,"body":"open to like doing working on a"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1629.78,"endTime":1632.9,"body":"treatment or using this"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1629.78,"endTime":1632.9,"body":"treatment approach that really"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1632.9,"endTime":1637.37,"body":"will improve functioning in"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1632.9,"endTime":1637.37,"body":"various areas of your life? You"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1637.37,"endTime":1644.75,"body":"know, so, this, it just has so"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1637.37,"endTime":1644.75,"body":"many possible implications and"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1644.75,"endTime":1648.29,"body":"applications that I get really"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1644.75,"endTime":1648.29,"body":"excited about?"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1648.44,"endTime":1651.74,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1648.44,"endTime":1651.74,"body":"Me too. And I think, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1651.83,"endTime":1655.16,"body":"it kind of speaks to the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1651.83,"endTime":1655.16,"body":"problems that we have in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1655.19,"endTime":1659.6,"body":"dressing, co morbid alcohol,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1655.19,"endTime":1659.6,"body":"mental health problems. I mean,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1659.66,"endTime":1661.76,"body":"you know, so many people, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1659.66,"endTime":1661.76,"body":"know, I've had a lot of people"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1661.76,"endTime":1664.4,"body":"talk about, it's a false"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1661.76,"endTime":1664.4,"body":"separation, to say, well, I've"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1664.4,"endTime":1666.68,"body":"got an alcohol problem and a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1664.4,"endTime":1666.68,"body":"mental health problem, they're"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1666.68,"endTime":1670.52,"body":"both one another, and, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1666.68,"endTime":1670.52,"body":"you wouldn't have one without"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1670.52,"endTime":1673.31,"body":"the other. So it's, it's, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1670.52,"endTime":1673.31,"body":"know, we still certainly in the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1673.31,"endTime":1677.81,"body":"UK are really struggling to,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1673.31,"endTime":1677.81,"body":"after many decades, really kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1677.81,"endTime":1681.32,"body":"of bring together effective"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1677.81,"endTime":1681.32,"body":"treatments and services, so"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1681.32,"endTime":1684.53,"body":"that, you know, we still have"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1681.32,"endTime":1684.53,"body":"people, you know, being excluded"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1684.53,"endTime":1688.25,"body":"from one service, because they"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1684.53,"endTime":1688.25,"body":"have been told to go and stop"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1688.28,"endTime":1691.1,"body":"drinking before you can access"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1688.28,"endTime":1691.1,"body":"to their kind of mental health"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1691.1,"endTime":1694.79,"body":"support, etc. And, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1691.1,"endTime":1694.79,"body":"that's this is really kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1694.79,"endTime":1698.51,"body":"upsetting that still happening"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1694.79,"endTime":1698.51,"body":"to this day. But I think in some"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1698.51,"endTime":1703.64,"body":"ways, it does reflect a, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1698.51,"endTime":1703.64,"body":"know, a degree of feeling like"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1703.64,"endTime":1706.4,"body":"services or practitioners maybe"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1703.64,"endTime":1706.4,"body":"don't have the tools or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1706.4,"endTime":1709.76,"body":"understanding or certainly"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1706.4,"endTime":1709.76,"body":"capacity, in many cases, to be"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1709.76,"endTime":1713.57,"body":"able to, to kind of know what to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1709.76,"endTime":1713.57,"body":"do in a more meaningful way, and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1713.57,"endTime":1718.97,"body":"to help people understand it in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1713.57,"endTime":1718.97,"body":"a way that might kind of align"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1718.97,"endTime":1720.41,"body":"more with their experiences."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1720.77,"endTime":1723.65,"body":"Right? Yeah. And"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1720.77,"endTime":1723.65,"body":"I think what's interesting about"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1723.65,"endTime":1726.71,"body":"this, too, is there, I think"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1723.65,"endTime":1726.71,"body":"there is really a big push right"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1726.71,"endTime":1730.64,"body":"now and research and clinical"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1726.71,"endTime":1730.64,"body":"work to move more towards these"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1730.64,"endTime":1733.76,"body":"kind of trans diagnostic"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1730.64,"endTime":1733.76,"body":"approaches, right? How can we"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1734.21,"endTime":1738.11,"body":"given we know that there's a lot"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1734.21,"endTime":1738.11,"body":"of CO occurrence of mental"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1738.11,"endTime":1740.6,"body":"health problems and substance"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1738.11,"endTime":1740.6,"body":"use disorders? How can we kind"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1740.6,"endTime":1745.43,"body":"of make the most impact most"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1740.6,"endTime":1745.43,"body":"efficiently as possible, right?"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1746.63,"endTime":1750.23,"body":"How can we get treatments to the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1746.63,"endTime":1750.23,"body":"people that need them in a way"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1750.23,"endTime":1752.96,"body":"that's efficient, and I really"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1750.23,"endTime":1752.96,"body":"believe as a clinician, that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1752.96,"endTime":1756.2,"body":"moving more towards these trans"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1752.96,"endTime":1756.2,"body":"diagnostic approaches that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1756.44,"endTime":1759.5,"body":"really target these kind of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1756.44,"endTime":1759.5,"body":"higher order processes or"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1759.5,"endTime":1762.38,"body":"problems that occur across"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1759.5,"endTime":1762.38,"body":"different mental health"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1762.38,"endTime":1766.76,"body":"symptoms? Is really, I mean, the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1762.38,"endTime":1766.76,"body":"future I think of treatment."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1767.089,"endTime":1770.029,"body":"Yeah. And I think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1767.089,"endTime":1770.029,"body":"that also fit fits with, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1770.029,"endTime":1773.809,"body":"know, a lot of the criticisms"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1770.029,"endTime":1773.809,"body":"that are levelled at DSM on the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1773.809,"endTime":1778.999,"body":"whole is, is is the problems of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1773.809,"endTime":1778.999,"body":"creating, you know, disorders or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1778.999,"endTime":1784.699,"body":"diagnoses based on sets of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1778.999,"endTime":1784.699,"body":"symptoms that, you know, don't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1784.699,"endTime":1787.579,"body":"kind of stand up much to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1784.699,"endTime":1787.579,"body":"scientific scrutiny, and I think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1787.639,"endTime":1791.149,"body":"those kind of bits of work"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1787.639,"endTime":1791.149,"body":"happening more broadly across"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1791.179,"endTime":1794.629,"body":"all the kinds of disorders in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1791.179,"endTime":1794.629,"body":"DSM but you're doing it really"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1794.629,"endTime":1797.659,"body":"importantly, I think, but the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1794.629,"endTime":1797.659,"body":"GAO called specific side of it,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1797.659,"endTime":1801.289,"body":"where we, you know, equally need"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1797.659,"endTime":1801.289,"body":"more More in depth understanding"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1801.289,"endTime":1805.759,"body":"and less Reliance's, as you say,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1801.289,"endTime":1805.759,"body":"on these kinds of symptoms when"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1805.759,"endTime":1808.729,"body":"the bigger picture is much more"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1805.759,"endTime":1808.729,"body":"than that. Yeah, and"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1808.729,"endTime":1811.039,"body":"it's, it's really"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1808.729,"endTime":1811.039,"body":"unclear to me how the current"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1811.039,"endTime":1814.189,"body":"symptoms even map on to these"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1811.039,"endTime":1814.189,"body":"kind of well established"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1814.189,"endTime":1818.899,"body":"etiologic processes and in some"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1814.189,"endTime":1818.899,"body":"ways, you know, etiologic"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1818.899,"endTime":1822.529,"body":"processes that we know, that are"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1818.899,"endTime":1822.529,"body":"really core to alcohol use"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1822.529,"endTime":1827.599,"body":"disorder are not captured by the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1822.529,"endTime":1827.599,"body":"DSM criteria. So, it's really"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1827.599,"endTime":1831.109,"body":"interesting, and I understand"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1827.599,"endTime":1831.109,"body":"why that approach is taken. And"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1831.349,"endTime":1834.379,"body":"DSM has really said, you know,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1831.349,"endTime":1834.379,"body":"we're, we're a theoretical with"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1834.379,"endTime":1838.669,"body":"respect to aetiology. And that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1834.379,"endTime":1838.669,"body":"was something that I think was"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1838.669,"endTime":1841.699,"body":"decided back in like DSM three,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1838.669,"endTime":1841.699,"body":"when we didn't have a lot of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1841.699,"endTime":1845.209,"body":"this research. And so while that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1841.699,"endTime":1845.209,"body":"maybe made sense, in the past,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1845.209,"endTime":1848.509,"body":"and it was more, you know, these"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1845.209,"endTime":1848.509,"body":"arguments between these camps of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1848.509,"endTime":1852.979,"body":"researchers, I, I wonder if we"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1848.509,"endTime":1852.979,"body":"can start to kind of use that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1852.979,"endTime":1856.159,"body":"improve knowledge to really see"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1852.979,"endTime":1856.159,"body":"if we can do a better job of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1856.159,"endTime":1861.139,"body":"assessing what is an alcohol use"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1856.159,"endTime":1861.139,"body":"disorder, you know, what are the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1861.139,"endTime":1864.289,"body":"core processes that cause"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1861.139,"endTime":1864.289,"body":"somebody to develop an alcohol"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1864.289,"endTime":1868.789,"body":"use disorder, and start to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1864.289,"endTime":1868.789,"body":"actually assess those things and"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1868.789,"endTime":1871.789,"body":"practice, you know, as much as"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1868.789,"endTime":1871.789,"body":"possible with limitations of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1871.789,"endTime":1873.679,"body":"self report, and so on and so"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1871.789,"endTime":1873.679,"body":"forth."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1873.71,"endTime":1875.99,"body":"But yeah, and of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1873.71,"endTime":1875.99,"body":"course, you know, you can"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1875.99,"endTime":1878.6,"body":"understand them trying to say,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1875.99,"endTime":1878.6,"body":"look, like we're being a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1878.6,"endTime":1882.71,"body":"theoretical habits, but, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1878.6,"endTime":1882.71,"body":"know, the reality is, it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1882.71,"endTime":1888.59,"body":"hugely influential, and people,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1882.71,"endTime":1888.59,"body":"you know, do make assumptions or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1888.71,"endTime":1892.1,"body":"decisions or whatever,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1888.71,"endTime":1892.1,"body":"basically, behaviours based on"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1892.16,"endTime":1895.34,"body":"these ideas that are out there"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1892.16,"endTime":1895.34,"body":"in the world and draw upon them"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1895.34,"endTime":1898.94,"body":"and does is hugely influential"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1895.34,"endTime":1898.94,"body":"in terms of how people think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1898.94,"endTime":1902.36,"body":"about and understand mental"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1898.94,"endTime":1902.36,"body":"health disorders, so to speak. I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1902.36,"endTime":1905.15,"body":"mean, a lot of people don't like"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1902.36,"endTime":1905.15,"body":"the term disorder, and I kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1905.15,"endTime":1909.02,"body":"sympathise but you know, it's a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1905.15,"endTime":1909.02,"body":"somewhat useful simplification,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1909.02,"endTime":1910.52,"body":"isn't it to call somebody a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1909.02,"endTime":1910.52,"body":"disorder?"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1910.91,"endTime":1914.12,"body":"Yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1910.91,"endTime":1914.12,"body":"it's, it's definitely, you know,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1914.48,"endTime":1918.08,"body":"diagnostic criteria are socially"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1914.48,"endTime":1918.08,"body":"constructed. You know, even if"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1918.08,"endTime":1920.3,"body":"we're relying relying on the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1918.08,"endTime":1920.3,"body":"research and the data, like,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1920.3,"endTime":1923.63,"body":"there's always going to be some"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1920.3,"endTime":1923.63,"body":"component of bias that these"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1923.63,"endTime":1927.5,"body":"experts bring to the table when"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1923.63,"endTime":1927.5,"body":"coming up with these criteria,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1927.53,"endTime":1931.16,"body":"right. And it's always going to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1927.53,"endTime":1931.16,"body":"be influenced by culture, and"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1931.16,"endTime":1934.19,"body":"you know, what our society's"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1931.16,"endTime":1934.19,"body":"beliefs about people who use"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1934.19,"endTime":1937.28,"body":"alcohol or people who use"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1934.19,"endTime":1937.28,"body":"substances or what outcomes look"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1937.28,"endTime":1940.43,"body":"like for those people like, it's"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1937.28,"endTime":1940.43,"body":"always going to be influenced by"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1940.43,"endTime":1945.05,"body":"that just by nature of being"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1940.43,"endTime":1945.05,"body":"human. So I think, perhaps, if"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1945.05,"endTime":1947.99,"body":"we can find a way to focus on"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1945.05,"endTime":1947.99,"body":"these processes, these"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1947.99,"endTime":1950.87,"body":"mechanisms, we can reduce some"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1947.99,"endTime":1950.87,"body":"of that, I don't know that we"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1950.87,"endTime":1953.78,"body":"can eliminate it fully. But I"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1950.87,"endTime":1953.78,"body":"think we can perhaps reduce some"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1953.78,"endTime":1957.41,"body":"of the bias that creeps in, or"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1953.78,"endTime":1957.41,"body":"some of the really embedded"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1957.41,"endTime":1959.9,"body":"beliefs that we have about"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1957.41,"endTime":1959.9,"body":"people who use substances or"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1959.9,"endTime":1962.93,"body":"prohibition, or like you"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1959.9,"endTime":1962.93,"body":"mentioned the disease disease"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1962.93,"endTime":1967.46,"body":"model, I think we can perhaps,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1962.93,"endTime":1967.46,"body":"you know, try to move away from"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1967.85,"endTime":1971.09,"body":"the biases that inevitably play"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1967.85,"endTime":1971.09,"body":"into this process. Yeah, a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1971.089,"endTime":1973.789,"body":"bit of a Sisyphean"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1971.089,"endTime":1973.789,"body":"task. But I'm sure yeah, the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1973.789,"endTime":1977.629,"body":"closer we can get to accurately,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1973.789,"endTime":1977.629,"body":"kind of pinning down some of the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1977.629,"endTime":1980.809,"body":"mechanisms, the more we can kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1977.629,"endTime":1980.809,"body":"of help ourselves and others"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1980.809,"endTime":1984.229,"body":"understand what is an alcohol"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1980.809,"endTime":1984.229,"body":"use disorder, and what may be"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1984.379,"endTime":1986.809,"body":"some of the responses or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1984.379,"endTime":1986.809,"body":"treatments might be that we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1986.809,"endTime":1987.619,"body":"might pursue,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1987.979,"endTime":1990.529,"body":"right? Yeah, a"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1987.979,"endTime":1990.529,"body":"lot of these mechanisms are"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1990.529,"endTime":1994.729,"body":"these kind of dysregulation, so"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1990.529,"endTime":1994.729,"body":"to speak, actually, we do have"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1994.729,"endTime":1997.879,"body":"treatments that target those"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1994.729,"endTime":1997.879,"body":"mechanisms, right. So you know,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1997.879,"endTime":2000.429,"body":"in some ways, I've had a little"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":1997.879,"endTime":2000.429,"body":"bit of pushback of like, well,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2000.459,"endTime":2003.069,"body":"how is this any different from"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2000.459,"endTime":2003.069,"body":"like, the brain disease model,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2003.069,"endTime":2005.709,"body":"right? It's caused by this, it's"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2003.069,"endTime":2005.709,"body":"this brain disorder, I'm like,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2005.709,"endTime":2009.339,"body":"well, a lot of the way that we"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2005.709,"endTime":2009.339,"body":"talk about that is like, these"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2009.339,"endTime":2012.339,"body":"are processes or mechanisms that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2009.339,"endTime":2012.339,"body":"like they just are like, we"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2012.339,"endTime":2014.349,"body":"can't change them. It's just"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2012.339,"endTime":2014.349,"body":"these changes that have"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2014.349,"endTime":2017.979,"body":"occurred. Now we're powerless."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2014.349,"endTime":2017.979,"body":"But these mechanisms that are in"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2017.979,"endTime":2021.159,"body":"the framework that I talked"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2017.979,"endTime":2021.159,"body":"about, actually do really have"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2021.249,"endTime":2025.629,"body":"treatments that act upon those"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2021.249,"endTime":2025.629,"body":"mechanisms, specifically, to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2025.629,"endTime":2028.209,"body":"reduce dysfunction or"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2025.629,"endTime":2028.209,"body":"impairment, what sort"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2028.209,"endTime":2030.159,"body":"of treatments are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2028.209,"endTime":2030.159,"body":"they that would what would be a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2030.159,"endTime":2031.029,"body":"good example?"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2031.569,"endTime":2035.079,"body":"Yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2031.569,"endTime":2035.079,"body":"there's, there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2035.079,"endTime":2038.769,"body":"options, right? I think there"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2035.079,"endTime":2038.769,"body":"have been some treatments that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2038.769,"endTime":2043.149,"body":"are more alcohol specific, some"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2038.769,"endTime":2043.149,"body":"that are more substance"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2043.149,"endTime":2047.049,"body":"specific, right. But there's a"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2043.149,"endTime":2047.049,"body":"lot of options. So I think, you"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2047.049,"endTime":2050.169,"body":"know, perhaps if we're looking"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2047.049,"endTime":2050.169,"body":"at something like reward"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2050.289,"endTime":2053.349,"body":"dysregulation, there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2050.289,"endTime":2053.349,"body":"research to support that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2053.349,"endTime":2057.399,"body":"mindfulness based interventions"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2053.349,"endTime":2057.399,"body":"act upon those reward processes."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2057.729,"endTime":2061.719,"body":"So, you know, even if we don't"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2057.729,"endTime":2061.719,"body":"necessarily understand the full"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2061.719,"endTime":2065.199,"body":"picture of somebodies reward"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2061.719,"endTime":2065.199,"body":"dysregulation, but we know that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2065.199,"endTime":2069.399,"body":"that's a driving component of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2065.199,"endTime":2069.399,"body":"their problems. Why can't we say"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2069.399,"endTime":2071.769,"body":"hey, this, it seems like a"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2069.399,"endTime":2071.769,"body":"mindfulness based intervention"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2071.769,"endTime":2075.849,"body":"would be best for you or your"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2071.769,"endTime":2075.849,"body":"negative emotionality. That"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2075.849,"endTime":2079.359,"body":"seems to be a really important"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2075.849,"endTime":2079.359,"body":"predictor of recovery. How can"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2079.359,"endTime":2083.229,"body":"we use approaches that really"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2079.359,"endTime":2083.229,"body":"target that like cognitive"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2083.259,"endTime":2087.519,"body":"behavioural therapy approaches,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2083.259,"endTime":2087.519,"body":"cognitive restructuring, things"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2087.519,"endTime":2090.489,"body":"like that, that can really help"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2087.519,"endTime":2090.489,"body":"people reduce the impact of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2090.489,"endTime":2093.939,"body":"those negative emotions or"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2090.489,"endTime":2093.939,"body":"anxiety or depression, for"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2093.939,"endTime":2094.989,"body":"example, in their lives?"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2095.02,"endTime":2098.5,"body":"Yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2095.02,"endTime":2098.5,"body":"mindfulness is something Yeah, I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2098.5,"endTime":2102.94,"body":"certainly try I'm always trying"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2098.5,"endTime":2102.94,"body":"to build up you know, like,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2102.94,"endTime":2106.18,"body":"like, the metaphors is kind of a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2102.94,"endTime":2106.18,"body":"muscle that you need to work on."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2106.18,"endTime":2109.93,"body":"Because forever feel like, um,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2106.18,"endTime":2109.93,"body":"you know, I mean, I'm kind of,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2109.93,"endTime":2113.62,"body":"okay, if I'm doing yoga, I feel"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2109.93,"endTime":2113.62,"body":"like that's easier, but just the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2113.62,"endTime":2117.13,"body":"actual pure mindfulness. Maybe I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2113.62,"endTime":2117.13,"body":"misunderstand that it's kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2117.13,"endTime":2120.73,"body":"complex. But I definitely think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2117.13,"endTime":2120.73,"body":"that would help helps me and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2120.94,"endTime":2124.33,"body":"yeah, I guess sleep as well as"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2120.94,"endTime":2124.33,"body":"another kind of strong link"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2124.33,"endTime":2127.96,"body":"isn't there between sleep and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2124.33,"endTime":2127.96,"body":"alcohol problems? And I think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2127.96,"endTime":2130.87,"body":"that's overlooked as a maybe a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2127.96,"endTime":2130.87,"body":"specific treatment intervention."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2131.349,"endTime":2133.359,"body":"Actually, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2131.349,"endTime":2133.359,"body":"sleep is something that I've"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2133.359,"endTime":2137.319,"body":"become increasingly interested"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2133.359,"endTime":2137.319,"body":"in because it impacts all three"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2137.319,"endTime":2140.529,"body":"of those domains that I"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2137.319,"endTime":2140.529,"body":"mentioned. cognitive control,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2140.529,"endTime":2145.569,"body":"reward and negative"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2140.529,"endTime":2145.569,"body":"emotionality. And Dr. Mary Beth"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2145.569,"endTime":2148.959,"body":"Miller at the University of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2145.569,"endTime":2148.959,"body":"Missouri actually is really"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2148.959,"endTime":2153.429,"body":"interested in this and she's"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2148.959,"endTime":2153.429,"body":"doing research to see if"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2153.489,"endTime":2158.859,"body":"treating insomnia actually also"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2153.489,"endTime":2158.859,"body":"reduces somebodies alcohol"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2158.859,"endTime":2161.919,"body":"related risk or alcohol related"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2158.859,"endTime":2161.919,"body":"problems. So yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2161.919,"endTime":2164.889,"body":"there's a lot of approaches like"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2161.919,"endTime":2164.889,"body":"that, right, like cognitive"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2164.889,"endTime":2167.349,"body":"behavioural therapy for"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2164.889,"endTime":2167.349,"body":"insomnia, that although they're"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2167.349,"endTime":2171.159,"body":"targeting symptoms of insomnia,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2167.349,"endTime":2171.159,"body":"or sleep problems, actually"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2171.159,"endTime":2175.299,"body":"might also impact hazardous use,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2171.159,"endTime":2175.299,"body":"or risky use and might reduce"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2175.299,"endTime":2177.219,"body":"someone's use, overall. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2177.22,"endTime":2178.84,"body":"I think, and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2177.22,"endTime":2178.84,"body":"there's probably vicious and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2178.84,"endTime":2182.44,"body":"virtuous cycles, too, because we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2178.84,"endTime":2182.44,"body":"know that, you know, alcohol in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2182.44,"endTime":2186.4,"body":"the body really disrupts good"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2182.44,"endTime":2186.4,"body":"quality or restorative sleep. So"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2186.4,"endTime":2188.83,"body":"there's probably more stuff"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2186.4,"endTime":2188.83,"body":"going on there as well, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2188.83,"endTime":2191.59,"body":"know, if you if you're kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2188.83,"endTime":2191.59,"body":"cutting down and and that's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2191.59,"endTime":2194.92,"body":"improving asleep, and maybe"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2191.59,"endTime":2194.92,"body":"there's an effect of that, and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2194.95,"endTime":2195.79,"body":"vice versa."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2196.09,"endTime":2199.45,"body":"I that's very"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2196.09,"endTime":2199.45,"body":"Yeah, I actually, on in when I"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2199.45,"endTime":2203.59,"body":"was on internship worked on a"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2199.45,"endTime":2203.59,"body":"project that looked at the 11,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2203.92,"endTime":2208.18,"body":"add criteria, and then several"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2203.92,"endTime":2208.18,"body":"dimensions of sleep and sleep"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2208.18,"endTime":2212.05,"body":"quality and kind of circadian"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2208.18,"endTime":2212.05,"body":"dysfunction, and found that"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2212.05,"endTime":2215.32,"body":"there are kind of specific"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2212.05,"endTime":2215.32,"body":"facets of sleep, or sleep"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2215.32,"endTime":2219.13,"body":"related outcomes that are really"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2215.32,"endTime":2219.13,"body":"driving the hazardous use"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2219.13,"endTime":2223.24,"body":"criterion, which is oftentimes"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2219.13,"endTime":2223.24,"body":"what's referred to as like risky"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2223.24,"endTime":2226.6,"body":"drinking, right. It's like how"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2223.24,"endTime":2226.6,"body":"using and hazardous situations"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2226.6,"endTime":2230.08,"body":"and that certain aspects of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2226.6,"endTime":2230.08,"body":"sleep problems are kind of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2230.11,"endTime":2232.75,"body":"perhaps the association we're"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2230.11,"endTime":2232.75,"body":"seeing between sleep problems"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2232.75,"endTime":2235.36,"body":"and alcohol use disorder is"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2232.75,"endTime":2235.36,"body":"really being driven by this"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2235.36,"endTime":2239.26,"body":"hazardous use symptom. So"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2235.36,"endTime":2239.26,"body":"people's use becomes more risky,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2239.26,"endTime":2241.54,"body":"perhaps, and they're"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2239.26,"endTime":2241.54,"body":"experiencing sleep difficulties."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2241.57,"endTime":2244.24,"body":"Yeah, I think that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2241.57,"endTime":2244.24,"body":"makes a lot of sense. And I'm"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2244.24,"endTime":2248.68,"body":"certainly very grateful for my"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2244.24,"endTime":2248.68,"body":"melatonin prescription, which I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2248.68,"endTime":2250.96,"body":"don't know how much of its"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2248.68,"endTime":2250.96,"body":"placebo effect, but it seems to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2250.96,"endTime":2256.03,"body":"work in terms of what used to be"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2250.96,"endTime":2256.03,"body":"a very long standing insomnia"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2256.03,"endTime":2261.7,"body":"issue. So, so that's, that's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2256.03,"endTime":2261.7,"body":"been super insightful. I mean,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2261.7,"endTime":2266.68,"body":"so many questions. And, yeah,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2261.7,"endTime":2266.68,"body":"like, you know, the work"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2266.68,"endTime":2270.46,"body":"continues in terms of developing"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2266.68,"endTime":2270.46,"body":"this really amazing, complex"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2270.46,"endTime":2274.96,"body":"work that you're doing to kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2270.46,"endTime":2274.96,"body":"of unpack and kind of identify"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2274.96,"endTime":2280.45,"body":"the heterogeneity Within this"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2274.96,"endTime":2280.45,"body":"broad border AUD term in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2280.45,"endTime":2282.73,"body":"general. But do you have any"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2280.45,"endTime":2282.73,"body":"kind of final reflections"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2282.73,"endTime":2287.14,"body":"perhaps more broadly about? Kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2282.73,"endTime":2287.14,"body":"of alcohol use? And, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2287.47,"endTime":2290.83,"body":"yeah, I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2287.47,"endTime":2290.83,"body":"think, you know, one of the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2290.83,"endTime":2295.75,"body":"things that I really love about"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2290.83,"endTime":2295.75,"body":"this work is that it this one"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2295.75,"endTime":2299.38,"body":"size, like this one size doesn't"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2295.75,"endTime":2299.38,"body":"fit all perspective, right is"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2299.38,"endTime":2303.49,"body":"like, you know, what, what might"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2299.38,"endTime":2303.49,"body":"cause problems for one person"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2303.52,"endTime":2307.24,"body":"might not necessarily cause"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2303.52,"endTime":2307.24,"body":"problems for another person. And"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2307.24,"endTime":2312.07,"body":"I think if we can really expand"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2307.24,"endTime":2312.07,"body":"our thinking around substance"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2312.07,"endTime":2316.99,"body":"use disorders, and understand"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2312.07,"endTime":2316.99,"body":"that, there's, like, we have to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2316.99,"endTime":2319.42,"body":"look at kind of the whole"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2316.99,"endTime":2319.42,"body":"person, right and think more"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2319.42,"endTime":2323.86,"body":"holistically about how use is"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2319.42,"endTime":2323.86,"body":"related to other aspects of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2323.86,"endTime":2328.6,"body":"functioning, and how that might"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2323.86,"endTime":2328.6,"body":"differ based on the person's"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2328.6,"endTime":2332.68,"body":"family history, for example,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2328.6,"endTime":2332.68,"body":"like, I know, for myself, have a"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2332.68,"endTime":2336.19,"body":"really significant family"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2332.68,"endTime":2336.19,"body":"history of alcohol use disorder."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2336.52,"endTime":2340.09,"body":"So the decisions that I make"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2336.52,"endTime":2340.09,"body":"what I feel is maybe a safe"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2340.09,"endTime":2343.36,"body":"decision for me to use alcohol"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2340.09,"endTime":2343.36,"body":"in one situation might not be"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2343.36,"endTime":2346.57,"body":"the same for someone else. Or I"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2343.36,"endTime":2346.57,"body":"might feel less comfortable"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2346.57,"endTime":2349.96,"body":"using alcohol in some"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2346.57,"endTime":2349.96,"body":"situations, whereas others might"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2349.96,"endTime":2353.05,"body":"not feel uncomfortable. And I"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2349.96,"endTime":2353.05,"body":"think if we can start to think"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2353.05,"endTime":2357.88,"body":"more holistically about what's"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2353.05,"endTime":2357.88,"body":"risky, what's not risky, why for"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2357.88,"endTime":2361.09,"body":"me, is that risky, and why not"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2357.88,"endTime":2361.09,"body":"for someone else? And how does"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2361.09,"endTime":2364.84,"body":"that relate to like you're"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2361.09,"endTime":2364.84,"body":"saying, well being quality of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2364.84,"endTime":2370.3,"body":"life, sleep, things that are"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2364.84,"endTime":2370.3,"body":"values based in many ways. And"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2370.3,"endTime":2373.03,"body":"thinking about, you know, is my"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2370.3,"endTime":2373.03,"body":"use consistent with my values"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2373.03,"endTime":2375.4,"body":"are not consistent with my"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2373.03,"endTime":2375.4,"body":"values? And does that cause me"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2375.4,"endTime":2378.13,"body":"problems or not? I think if we"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2375.4,"endTime":2378.13,"body":"can just, you know, think more"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2378.13,"endTime":2382.21,"body":"holistically about these things"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2378.13,"endTime":2382.21,"body":"move away. Again, I'm kind of"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2382.21,"endTime":2386.53,"body":"with you and moving away from"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2382.21,"endTime":2386.53,"body":"these categorical you know, you"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2386.53,"endTime":2388.69,"body":"have an alcohol use disorder,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2386.53,"endTime":2388.69,"body":"you do not have an alcohol use"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2388.69,"endTime":2391.66,"body":"disorder. I don't I don't"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2388.69,"endTime":2391.66,"body":"necessarily endorse as a useful"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2391.66,"endTime":2394.51,"body":"approach. But oftentimes, the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2391.66,"endTime":2394.51,"body":"challenge is like, well, what"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2394.57,"endTime":2397.06,"body":"then what's the alternative?"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2394.57,"endTime":2397.06,"body":"What does that look like? And I"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2397.06,"endTime":2400.69,"body":"think, you know, again, taking a"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2397.06,"endTime":2400.69,"body":"step back and looking at the"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2400.69,"endTime":2403.72,"body":"bigger picture is really"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2400.69,"endTime":2403.72,"body":"important. And it's going to be"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2403.72,"endTime":2404.92,"body":"very person specific."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2404.95,"endTime":2406.87,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2404.95,"endTime":2406.87,"body":"And I think, yeah, it's it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2406.87,"endTime":2411.97,"body":"capturing that nuance and kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2406.87,"endTime":2411.97,"body":"of enabling the conversations to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2411.97,"endTime":2415.99,"body":"be to be able to be held with,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2411.97,"endTime":2415.99,"body":"you know, more openness. You"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2415.99,"endTime":2420.58,"body":"know, like, we know that alcohol"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2415.99,"endTime":2420.58,"body":"problems add stigma risk, it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2420.58,"endTime":2423.82,"body":"really heavy stigma. It's as"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2420.58,"endTime":2423.82,"body":"heavy as many illicit drugs or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2423.82,"endTime":2427.39,"body":"serious mental health. So yeah,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2423.82,"endTime":2427.39,"body":"to kind of capture that kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2427.39,"endTime":2430.84,"body":"nuance and diversity, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2427.39,"endTime":2430.84,"body":"obviously, at Vic covets, and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2430.84,"endTime":2434.68,"body":"others doing great work in terms"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2430.84,"endTime":2434.68,"body":"of trying to represent these"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2434.68,"endTime":2438.22,"body":"different pathways to recovery"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2434.68,"endTime":2438.22,"body":"and different ways that alcohol"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2438.22,"endTime":2441.85,"body":"problems manifest and so on. So"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2438.22,"endTime":2441.85,"body":"yeah, I'm really grateful for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2441.85,"endTime":2443.92,"body":"you talking about the work"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2441.85,"endTime":2443.92,"body":"you're doing. But yeah, also"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2443.92,"endTime":2446.68,"body":"your own personal reflections."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2443.92,"endTime":2446.68,"body":"Because I think that's that's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2446.68,"endTime":2450.22,"body":"kind of how we can do it. It's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2446.68,"endTime":2450.22,"body":"just kind of opening up these"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2450.22,"endTime":2454.0,"body":"conversations and encouraging"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2450.22,"endTime":2454.0,"body":"people to Yeah, exactly. Think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2454.0,"endTime":2457.78,"body":"about all kinds of different"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2454.0,"endTime":2457.78,"body":"contextual and subjective things"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2457.78,"endTime":2460.69,"body":"going on that might make it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2457.78,"endTime":2460.69,"body":"what, what for one person is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2460.69,"endTime":2464.68,"body":"problematic might not be for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2460.69,"endTime":2464.68,"body":"another. So thank you so much."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2464.86,"endTime":2467.74,"body":"Yeah. Yeah, thank"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2464.86,"endTime":2467.74,"body":"you so much for having me. And I"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2467.74,"endTime":2471.31,"body":"think one thing that's really"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2467.74,"endTime":2471.31,"body":"influenced my thinking in this"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2471.31,"endTime":2475.12,"body":"area that I have to kind of give"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2471.31,"endTime":2475.12,"body":"a shout out to is tick tock."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2475.75,"endTime":2479.05,"body":"Like, they're all these people"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2475.75,"endTime":2479.05,"body":"and tick tock now that are kind"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2479.05,"endTime":2482.59,"body":"of in this, like, you know,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2479.05,"endTime":2482.59,"body":"sober, curious or moderated"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2482.59,"endTime":2485.68,"body":"drinking or harm reduction with"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2482.59,"endTime":2485.68,"body":"alcohol. And I think it's so"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2485.68,"endTime":2488.86,"body":"important for people to see"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2485.68,"endTime":2488.86,"body":"those representations of you"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2488.86,"endTime":2492.49,"body":"know, like, I am sober, I am not"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2488.86,"endTime":2492.49,"body":"drinking, it's not because I had"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2492.49,"endTime":2496.0,"body":"all these problems, but it's"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2492.49,"endTime":2496.0,"body":"because I feel better I am"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2496.0,"endTime":2500.2,"body":"coping better. You know, I think"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2496.0,"endTime":2500.2,"body":"having these representations out"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2500.2,"endTime":2502.45,"body":"in the world is just so"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2500.2,"endTime":2502.45,"body":"important. And it has really"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2502.45,"endTime":2505.63,"body":"helped me just to listen to"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2502.45,"endTime":2505.63,"body":"people with different lived"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2505.63,"endTime":2508.57,"body":"experiences to kind of just"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2505.63,"endTime":2508.57,"body":"inform how I think about this."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2508.57,"endTime":2511.84,"body":"So, you know, there's, we should"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2508.57,"endTime":2511.84,"body":"be listening to people out in"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2511.84,"endTime":2516.16,"body":"the out in the community who are"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2511.84,"endTime":2516.16,"body":"not PhD level researchers, who"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2516.16,"endTime":2520.03,"body":"have a lot of really valuable"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2516.16,"endTime":2520.03,"body":"insights on some of the things"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2520.03,"endTime":2520.63,"body":"we're talking about."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2520.63,"endTime":2522.82,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2520.63,"endTime":2522.82,"body":"Yeah, I think I mean, in the UK,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2522.82,"endTime":2526.48,"body":"it's sort of been branded sort"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2522.82,"endTime":2526.48,"body":"of positive sobriety or new"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2526.48,"endTime":2529.87,"body":"sobriety movement, and it seems"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2526.48,"endTime":2529.87,"body":"to be pretty much associated"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2529.87,"endTime":2533.8,"body":"with this decline in young"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2529.87,"endTime":2533.8,"body":"people's drinking. We don't see"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2533.8,"endTime":2538.78,"body":"in kind of middle or older aged"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2533.8,"endTime":2538.78,"body":"adult groups, but yeah, I'm"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2538.78,"endTime":2541.9,"body":"resisting downloading Tik Tok,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2538.78,"endTime":2541.9,"body":"and I'm going to continue to do"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2541.9,"endTime":2543.1,"body":"that as long as I can."},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2545.77,"endTime":2549.07,"body":"Thanks. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Cassie Boness","startTime":2545.77,"endTime":2549.07,"body":"thank you for having me."}]}