{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":0.3,"endTime":4.14,"body":"Thanks for joining"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":0.3,"endTime":4.14,"body":"me on the show, Mark. Can you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":8.19,"endTime":11.43,"body":"tell me a bit about who you are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":8.19,"endTime":11.43,"body":"and what your interests are,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":12.66,"endTime":16.17,"body":"Sure. So I've had a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":12.66,"endTime":16.17,"body":"few different careers that since"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":16.23,"endTime":19.95,"body":"I was a professor at the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":16.23,"endTime":19.95,"body":"University of Toronto for 20"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":19.95,"endTime":22.86,"body":"plus years, then moved to the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":19.95,"endTime":22.86,"body":"Netherlands and did some"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":22.86,"endTime":28.98,"body":"teaching, research there for 10"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":22.86,"endTime":28.98,"body":"years. So that was my academic"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":28.98,"endTime":34.5,"body":"life when I got back to Toronto,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":28.98,"endTime":34.5,"body":"which is where I live now. But"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":34.53,"endTime":39.27,"body":"I'm old now I'm 71. So I've"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":34.53,"endTime":39.27,"body":"given up the academic entirely,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":39.3,"endTime":42.36,"body":"pretty much I mean, the odd"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":39.3,"endTime":42.36,"body":"review, and so forth. But I keep"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":42.36,"endTime":45.99,"body":"I, you know, I keep somewhat"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":42.36,"endTime":45.99,"body":"alert to research that's"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":45.99,"endTime":48.9,"body":"relevant to my interests. And my"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":45.99,"endTime":48.9,"body":"interests have turned in the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":48.9,"endTime":53.97,"body":"last 1510 to 15 years to"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":48.9,"endTime":53.97,"body":"addiction, mainly because I had"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":53.97,"endTime":57.48,"body":"a lot of addiction problems"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":53.97,"endTime":57.48,"body":"myself and my 20s, I was pretty"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":57.48,"endTime":60.72,"body":"serious opiate addict. And it"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":57.48,"endTime":60.72,"body":"wasn't until I could clear that"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":60.72,"endTime":64.68,"body":"up that I got back into graduate"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":60.72,"endTime":64.68,"body":"school, got a PhD in the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":64.68,"endTime":69.18,"body":"academic route. And then Then I"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":64.68,"endTime":69.18,"body":"studied emotional development,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":69.18,"endTime":71.22,"body":"cognitive development,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":69.18,"endTime":71.22,"body":"cognition, emotion,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":71.22,"endTime":75.18,"body":"interactions, neuroscience of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":71.22,"endTime":75.18,"body":"emotion regulation, personality,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":75.18,"endTime":78.93,"body":"development, all that kind of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":75.18,"endTime":78.93,"body":"stuff. And then toward the end"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":78.93,"endTime":84.21,"body":"of that I got interested more in"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":78.93,"endTime":84.21,"body":"Okay, addictions are real"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":84.24,"endTime":88.62,"body":"concrete problem that I can"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":84.24,"endTime":88.62,"body":"focus on. I did a lot of, you"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":88.62,"endTime":91.56,"body":"know, a lot of research on the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":88.62,"endTime":91.56,"body":"net, to figure out what's going"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":91.56,"endTime":94.2,"body":"on now with the neuroscience of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":91.56,"endTime":94.2,"body":"addiction that interested me a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":94.2,"endTime":98.37,"body":"great deal. I wrote published a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":94.2,"endTime":98.37,"body":"couple of books on addiction."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":98.85,"endTime":102.33,"body":"The first one was called Memoirs"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":98.85,"endTime":102.33,"body":"of an addicted brain, which was"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":102.33,"endTime":107.64,"body":"the story of my years of drug"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":102.33,"endTime":107.64,"body":"use, and interspersed with kind"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":107.64,"endTime":111.45,"body":"of user friendly ways of trying"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":107.64,"endTime":111.45,"body":"to understand how different"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":111.45,"endTime":114.99,"body":"drugs work in the brain, and"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":111.45,"endTime":114.99,"body":"psychologically as well, and"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":114.99,"endTime":117.9,"body":"just kind of follow the gamut"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":114.99,"endTime":117.9,"body":"and follow the progression of my"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":117.9,"endTime":122.46,"body":"own drug use from from alcohol"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":117.9,"endTime":122.46,"body":"to through, you know, marijuana,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":122.46,"endTime":127.02,"body":"all the usual steps. And then on"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":122.46,"endTime":127.02,"body":"to hard drugs, which that was"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":127.05,"endTime":129.93,"body":"when I was living in California,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":127.05,"endTime":129.93,"body":"and went to Berkeley,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":129.93,"endTime":133.74,"body":"California, height of the the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":129.93,"endTime":133.74,"body":"kind of hippie revolution,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":133.77,"endTime":138.21,"body":"drugs, sex and rock and roll and"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":133.77,"endTime":138.21,"body":"there was lots to choose. So"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":138.21,"endTime":141.69,"body":"there was that hat. But I also"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":138.21,"endTime":141.69,"body":"got really interested in writing"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":141.69,"endTime":145.62,"body":"pop science, rather than writing"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":141.69,"endTime":145.62,"body":"journal articles, just for me a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":145.62,"endTime":148.41,"body":"more interesting, more"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":145.62,"endTime":148.41,"body":"productive way to communicate"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":148.41,"endTime":151.32,"body":"with the world. So that was the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":148.41,"endTime":151.32,"body":"first book Memoirs of an"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":151.32,"endTime":154.95,"body":"addicted brain. And then that"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":151.32,"endTime":154.95,"body":"came out in 2011, I think, at"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":154.95,"endTime":158.91,"body":"Random House. And then the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":154.95,"endTime":158.91,"body":"second one is called biology of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":158.91,"endTime":164.58,"body":"desire, why addiction is not a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":158.91,"endTime":164.58,"body":"disease, at the subtitle, why"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":164.58,"endTime":168.78,"body":"addiction is not a disease"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":164.58,"endTime":168.78,"body":"became kind of my my argument,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":168.78,"endTime":174.99,"body":"my pulpit banging response to"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":168.78,"endTime":174.99,"body":"the dominant model of addiction"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":175.02,"endTime":178.23,"body":"at the time, which I think still"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":175.02,"endTime":178.23,"body":"is dominant in many places,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":178.26,"endTime":180.51,"body":"which is that addiction"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":178.26,"endTime":180.51,"body":"shouldn't be labelled as a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":180.51,"endTime":184.29,"body":"disease is specifically a brain"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":180.51,"endTime":184.29,"body":"disease. And that's got all"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":184.29,"endTime":187.71,"body":"kinds of implications that I"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":184.29,"endTime":187.71,"body":"found to be really negative, not"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":187.71,"endTime":191.61,"body":"only did it not make much sense"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":187.71,"endTime":191.61,"body":"in terms of brain processes, but"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":191.61,"endTime":194.25,"body":"it didn't make much sense in"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":191.61,"endTime":194.25,"body":"terms of treatment processes."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":194.46,"endTime":197.13,"body":"Because if you have a disease,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":194.46,"endTime":197.13,"body":"and you go to the doctor, and"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":197.13,"endTime":200.04,"body":"you're a patient and to do what"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":197.13,"endTime":200.04,"body":"the doctor tells you to do, and"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":200.04,"endTime":203.97,"body":"you lose that sense of self"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":200.04,"endTime":203.97,"body":"efficacy, and empowerment, which"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":203.97,"endTime":207.63,"body":"I think is so important for"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":203.97,"endTime":207.63,"body":"recovery, or for control, I"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":207.63,"endTime":211.26,"body":"mean, whether it's us or whether"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":207.63,"endTime":211.26,"body":"it's just control us. So I"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":211.26,"endTime":214.86,"body":"became quite interested in this"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":211.26,"endTime":214.86,"body":"approach to addiction, which"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":214.86,"endTime":218.58,"body":"counters the disease model, and"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":214.86,"endTime":218.58,"body":"relies instead on looking at"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":218.58,"endTime":222.45,"body":"environmental factors, social"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":218.58,"endTime":222.45,"body":"factors, personal psychological"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":222.45,"endTime":227.58,"body":"factors, seeing addiction, not"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":222.45,"endTime":227.58,"body":"as just a thing in itself, but"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":227.58,"endTime":231.06,"body":"rather seeing it as part of a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":227.58,"endTime":231.06,"body":"whole mental health, shall we"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":231.06,"endTime":236.52,"body":"say, matrix that that is gone"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":231.06,"endTime":236.52,"body":"wrong. And that's really the way"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":236.52,"endTime":238.47,"body":"to approach it, and to help"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":236.52,"endTime":238.47,"body":"people that need help."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":238.65,"endTime":241.77,"body":"Absolutely. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":238.65,"endTime":241.77,"body":"they're both great books. And I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":241.77,"endTime":244.92,"body":"suppose what's unique about you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":241.77,"endTime":244.92,"body":"is that you, you know, as a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":244.92,"endTime":248.64,"body":"neuroscientist, a real"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":244.92,"endTime":248.64,"body":"understanding of the brain. And,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":248.88,"endTime":252.48,"body":"you know, this idea of whether"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":248.88,"endTime":252.48,"body":"it can or should or shouldn't be"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":252.48,"endTime":255.78,"body":"called a disease based on the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":252.48,"endTime":255.78,"body":"neuroscience, because, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":255.78,"endTime":258.96,"body":"that's the kind of context isn't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":255.78,"endTime":258.96,"body":"it that, you know, the sort of,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":259.2,"endTime":262.65,"body":"I think, in the biology of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":259.2,"endTime":262.65,"body":"desire, you said that the 90s"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":262.65,"endTime":265.53,"body":"was kind of called the decade of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":262.65,"endTime":265.53,"body":"the brain. And that was the rise"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":265.53,"endTime":269.19,"body":"of neuroscience. And when this"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":265.53,"endTime":269.19,"body":"kind of almost disease model"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":269.19,"endTime":272.67,"body":"certainly flourished under a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":269.19,"endTime":272.67,"body":"kind of neuroscience paradigm."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":272.909,"endTime":276.059,"body":"Exactly. Yeah. And"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":272.909,"endTime":276.059,"body":"yeah, that was so as I kind of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":276.059,"endTime":279.629,"body":"joined the camp of people who"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":276.059,"endTime":279.629,"body":"argued against the disease"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":279.629,"endTime":283.439,"body":"model, you're right, my"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":279.629,"endTime":283.439,"body":"perspective was a bit different,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":283.469,"endTime":286.679,"body":"a bit unique because I didn't"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":283.469,"endTime":286.679,"body":"want to get the break out of the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":286.679,"endTime":290.339,"body":"equation. A lot of people who"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":286.679,"endTime":290.339,"body":"said no, it's not a disease,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":290.339,"endTime":292.529,"body":"it's a social issue, etc, etc."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":290.339,"endTime":292.529,"body":"They don't want to think about"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":292.529,"endTime":295.799,"body":"the brain at all. I do. I think"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":292.529,"endTime":295.799,"body":"it's really important to try to"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":295.799,"endTime":303.839,"body":"understand the neural aspects of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":295.799,"endTime":303.839,"body":"it. diction as a kind of high"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":303.839,"endTime":308.339,"body":"powered learning process, which"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":303.839,"endTime":308.339,"body":"becomes an extremely deep habit,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":308.789,"endTime":313.199,"body":"but you know, why not understand"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":308.789,"endTime":313.199,"body":"in so much that we do know about"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":313.199,"endTime":316.529,"body":"how the brain works now, to help"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":313.199,"endTime":316.529,"body":"us understand learning in"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":316.529,"endTime":321.179,"body":"general, and help us understand"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":316.529,"endTime":321.179,"body":"habit formation, compulsion, the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":321.179,"endTime":323.519,"body":"things that we know,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":321.179,"endTime":323.519,"body":"psychologically, are really"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":323.519,"endTime":327.089,"body":"important aspects of addiction."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":323.519,"endTime":327.089,"body":"So I really want to, you know,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":327.089,"endTime":331.769,"body":"stay on both sides of that"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":327.089,"endTime":331.769,"body":"divide that divide. And I argue"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":331.769,"endTime":335.339,"body":"against people who say, if"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":331.769,"endTime":335.339,"body":"people like Sally Satel, say,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":335.339,"endTime":337.079,"body":"well, we don't need to think"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":335.339,"endTime":337.079,"body":"about the brain anymore. That's"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":337.079,"endTime":340.859,"body":"kind of silly. No, silly at all,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":337.079,"endTime":340.859,"body":"I think it can be quite helpful,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":340.889,"endTime":341.189,"body":"you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":341.19,"endTime":344.67,"body":"And I think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":341.19,"endTime":344.67,"body":"everybody knows that the brain"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":344.67,"endTime":347.55,"body":"is part of their body and part"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":344.67,"endTime":347.55,"body":"of their thoughts and the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":347.55,"endTime":351.24,"body":"feelings and, you know, maybe we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":347.55,"endTime":351.24,"body":"know that cognition is embodied,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":351.24,"endTime":354.57,"body":"that is connected to our bodies"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":351.24,"endTime":354.57,"body":"and our environments and all of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":354.57,"endTime":357.48,"body":"that. But yeah, absolutely, I'd"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":354.57,"endTime":357.48,"body":"agree that, you know, we will"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":357.48,"endTime":360.69,"body":"never convince people by saying"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":357.48,"endTime":360.69,"body":"we need to kind of ignore the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":360.69,"endTime":365.04,"body":"brain altogether, because it is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":360.69,"endTime":365.04,"body":"so central in in terms of many"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":365.04,"endTime":369.06,"body":"people's understandings"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":365.04,"endTime":369.06,"body":"themselves, but I suppose so,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":369.06,"endTime":372.06,"body":"you know, for an advocate of a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":369.06,"endTime":372.06,"body":"kind of brain disease model of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":372.06,"endTime":375.39,"body":"an addiction, they would say"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":372.06,"endTime":375.39,"body":"that, that the neuro adaptations"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":375.39,"endTime":379.14,"body":"are so significant as a result"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":375.39,"endTime":379.14,"body":"of drug use, or maybe engaging"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":379.14,"endTime":382.62,"body":"in an addictive behaviour, that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":379.14,"endTime":382.62,"body":"it fundamentally changes the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":382.62,"endTime":386.49,"body":"brain. And that impairs control"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":382.62,"endTime":386.49,"body":"to such a significant degree"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":386.49,"endTime":389.49,"body":"that you would say that, then"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":386.49,"endTime":389.49,"body":"that it's diseased, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":389.55,"endTime":390.99,"body":"how would you respond to that?"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":391.05,"endTime":394.08,"body":"So yeah, I hear that"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":391.05,"endTime":394.08,"body":"a lot. Of course, you know, if"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":394.08,"endTime":398.22,"body":"you look at the specific"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":394.08,"endTime":398.22,"body":"neurochemical neurotransmitter"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":398.22,"endTime":402.9,"body":"interactions, and so forth, you"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":398.22,"endTime":402.9,"body":"do see differences, you see a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":402.9,"endTime":408.51,"body":"certain amount of wiring up of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":402.9,"endTime":408.51,"body":"tendencies or reactions, or kind"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":408.51,"endTime":412.17,"body":"of a Pavlovian learning response"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":408.51,"endTime":412.17,"body":"to stimulus response, you know,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":412.2,"endTime":415.95,"body":"automaticity, and stuff like"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":412.2,"endTime":415.95,"body":"that. So some people might say,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":415.95,"endTime":418.53,"body":"Well, isn't that kind of like a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":415.95,"endTime":418.53,"body":"disease? Or is that kind of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":418.53,"endTime":422.28,"body":"weird, but actually, when you"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":418.53,"endTime":422.28,"body":"look more deeply at the issue,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":422.52,"endTime":426.63,"body":"it's not weird at all, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":422.52,"endTime":426.63,"body":"deep learning works exactly like"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":426.63,"endTime":429.63,"body":"that. When we fought when we"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":426.63,"endTime":429.63,"body":"fall in love, when we join a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":429.63,"endTime":433.14,"body":"religion, when we have children,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":429.63,"endTime":433.14,"body":"there's all sorts of things when"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":433.14,"endTime":436.86,"body":"we develop strong habits of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":433.14,"endTime":436.86,"body":"following a sports team, for"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":436.86,"endTime":441.33,"body":"example, you can have exactly"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":436.86,"endTime":441.33,"body":"the same brain changes. The"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":441.33,"endTime":444.48,"body":"whole dopamine issue opening is"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":441.33,"endTime":444.48,"body":"kind of the famous"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":445.2,"endTime":449.25,"body":"neurotransmitter in addiction is"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":445.2,"endTime":449.25,"body":"an important part of all kinds"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":449.28,"endTime":453.15,"body":"of learning and deep learning"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":449.28,"endTime":453.15,"body":"and learning that leads to"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":453.18,"endTime":458.31,"body":"direct actions. So drug use, and"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":453.18,"endTime":458.31,"body":"alcohol use just doesn't stand"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":458.31,"endTime":461.52,"body":"apart from some of these other"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":458.31,"endTime":461.52,"body":"deeply embedded habits."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":461.73,"endTime":465.33,"body":"So is it not the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":461.73,"endTime":465.33,"body":"case, then the sort of quick fix"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":465.33,"endTime":469.14,"body":"of being able to take a drink or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":465.33,"endTime":469.14,"body":"have a lot of alcohol that would"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":469.41,"endTime":473.13,"body":"affect the brain that that could"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":469.41,"endTime":473.13,"body":"be more of a dopamine release"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":473.13,"endTime":477.48,"body":"than other things that are non"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":473.13,"endTime":477.48,"body":"substance or less, arguably"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":477.51,"endTime":481.98,"body":"addictive behaviours or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":477.51,"endTime":481.98,"body":"triggers? Or is there not people"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":481.98,"endTime":486.18,"body":"not say that there was the drug"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":481.98,"endTime":486.18,"body":"that way it kind of almost"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":486.33,"endTime":490.56,"body":"biochemically manufactures this"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":486.33,"endTime":490.56,"body":"release is so reinforcing that,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":490.56,"endTime":493.89,"body":"that that's kind of kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":490.56,"endTime":493.89,"body":"spurs it or pushes it into the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":493.89,"endTime":494.88,"body":"realm of addiction?"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":494.94,"endTime":497.25,"body":"I think that's a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":494.94,"endTime":497.25,"body":"good point. And it opens up"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":497.25,"endTime":502.32,"body":"another complexity here. I agree"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":497.25,"endTime":502.32,"body":"that with substance use, there's"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":502.32,"endTime":505.59,"body":"something special going on in"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":502.32,"endTime":505.59,"body":"the sense that the visceral"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":505.62,"endTime":508.26,"body":"reaction, the actual bodily,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":505.62,"endTime":508.26,"body":"visceral reaction, the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":508.26,"endTime":512.94,"body":"immediacy, whether it's alcohol,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":508.26,"endTime":512.94,"body":"or drugs, or alcohol, is a drug."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":514.56,"endTime":517.47,"body":"That's that special. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":514.56,"endTime":517.47,"body":"there's just something about"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":517.47,"endTime":520.59,"body":"that. And when you combine that"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":517.47,"endTime":520.59,"body":"visceral response with the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":520.59,"endTime":524.16,"body":"symbolism that takes over with"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":520.59,"endTime":524.16,"body":"addiction, this is my friend,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":524.16,"endTime":526.86,"body":"this is my attachment object."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":524.16,"endTime":526.86,"body":"This is what I need to feel"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":526.86,"endTime":529.95,"body":"better. This is what I, this is"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":526.86,"endTime":529.95,"body":"what I can trust. This is how I"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":529.95,"endTime":533.07,"body":"can control my mood, all of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":529.95,"endTime":533.07,"body":"those psychological factors"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":533.19,"endTime":537.09,"body":"mixed with the visceral,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":533.19,"endTime":537.09,"body":"immediate response, I think,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":537.09,"endTime":540.42,"body":"yeah, that's a really powerful"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":537.09,"endTime":540.42,"body":"combination. But then I look at"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":540.42,"endTime":545.22,"body":"you know, the way people get"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":540.42,"endTime":545.22,"body":"completely, you know, obsessed"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":545.22,"endTime":547.71,"body":"with sports with their sports"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":545.22,"endTime":547.71,"body":"team, their favourite sports"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":547.71,"endTime":551.07,"body":"team. It's just not that"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":547.71,"endTime":551.07,"body":"different. That kind of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":551.07,"endTime":553.74,"body":"obsession, that kind of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":551.07,"endTime":553.74,"body":"compulsivity, I've got to watch"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":553.74,"endTime":557.01,"body":"this, I got to see this game,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":553.74,"endTime":557.01,"body":"you know, the hub's drop"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":557.01,"endTime":559.71,"body":"whatever they're doing in order"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":557.01,"endTime":559.71,"body":"to do that. And of course, with"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":559.74,"endTime":565.92,"body":"now with the attraction to the,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":559.74,"endTime":565.92,"body":"to the online world, people are"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":566.04,"endTime":568.92,"body":"compulsively getting, you know,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":566.04,"endTime":568.92,"body":"browsing, like all the time and"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":568.95,"endTime":571.41,"body":"teenagers on their phones, et"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":568.95,"endTime":571.41,"body":"cetera, et cetera, we see a lot"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":571.41,"endTime":574.89,"body":"of stuff that looks so similar,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":571.41,"endTime":574.89,"body":"despite the fact that it doesn't"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":574.92,"endTime":578.19,"body":"certainly have the same visceral"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":574.92,"endTime":578.19,"body":"punch, you know, you're not"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":578.19,"endTime":581.7,"body":"putting something in your blood,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":578.19,"endTime":581.7,"body":"and yet, it doesn't look that"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":581.7,"endTime":584.94,"body":"different. So, you know, I think"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":581.7,"endTime":584.94,"body":"that's a it's sort of a fine"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":584.94,"endTime":587.55,"body":"point. It's important, but it's"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":584.94,"endTime":587.55,"body":"not the whole story."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":587.96,"endTime":590.72,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":587.96,"endTime":590.72,"body":"And not just teenagers. You"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":590.72,"endTime":594.5,"body":"know, I certainly struggle with"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":590.72,"endTime":594.5,"body":"kind of modifying my smartphone"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":594.5,"endTime":598.43,"body":"use if you like, you know, I you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":594.5,"endTime":598.43,"body":"know, there's motivation there"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":598.43,"endTime":602.03,"body":"to change it and I have put some"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":598.43,"endTime":602.03,"body":"strategies in place, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":602.03,"endTime":604.94,"body":"no Doom scrolling when I'm on"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":602.03,"endTime":604.94,"body":"the sofa. And that kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":604.94,"endTime":605.36,"body":"works."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":606.44,"endTime":609.65,"body":"I actually I have to"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":606.44,"endTime":609.65,"body":"this my second generation of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":609.65,"endTime":613.19,"body":"kids, second, second marriage"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":609.65,"endTime":613.19,"body":"second generation of kids to 16"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":613.19,"endTime":615.77,"body":"year old twin boys. And I was"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":613.19,"endTime":615.77,"body":"with one of them this morning"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":615.77,"endTime":619.07,"body":"and we had breakfast together."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":615.77,"endTime":619.07,"body":"And it was the stuff that he"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":619.07,"endTime":622.34,"body":"watched on his phone. It's like,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":619.07,"endTime":622.34,"body":"Julian, what? What is this doing"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":622.34,"endTime":625.49,"body":"for you? Like you're watching"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":622.34,"endTime":625.49,"body":"bunnies jumping through hoops or"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":626.33,"endTime":630.29,"body":"whatever, cats hanging upside"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":626.33,"endTime":630.29,"body":"down or wearing hats. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":630.29,"endTime":633.65,"body":"just really stupid stuff. You"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":630.29,"endTime":633.65,"body":"know, a lot of his Tik Tok and"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":634.22,"endTime":636.59,"body":"Snapchat and what are some of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":634.22,"endTime":636.59,"body":"the other ones, you know,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":636.62,"endTime":639.98,"body":"Instagram, Reddit, I mean, all"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":636.62,"endTime":639.98,"body":"that stuff. It's like, it's it"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":639.98,"endTime":644.03,"body":"really, it's compulsive. Okay,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":639.98,"endTime":644.03,"body":"that's best word for it. And"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":644.09,"endTime":646.61,"body":"when people become addicted to"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":644.09,"endTime":646.61,"body":"drugs, or alcohol, it's"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":646.61,"endTime":651.38,"body":"compulsive. And actually, I"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":646.61,"endTime":651.38,"body":"should have mentioned my present"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":651.38,"endTime":654.11,"body":"careers. I'm now a licenced"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":651.38,"endTime":654.11,"body":"clinical psychologist in"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":654.11,"endTime":659.27,"body":"Toronto. So I spend all my work"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":654.11,"endTime":659.27,"body":"time doing, as a psychologist"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":659.27,"endTime":662.06,"body":"doing psychotherapy, guy walked"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":659.27,"endTime":662.06,"body":"into my office yesterday with a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":662.06,"endTime":665.72,"body":"gambling addiction, that was"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":662.06,"endTime":665.72,"body":"really serious. I mean, he spent"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":665.75,"endTime":668.15,"body":"almost all of their family"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":665.75,"endTime":668.15,"body":"money, his wife is completely"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":668.15,"endTime":672.05,"body":"ready to leave him. And there's"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":668.15,"endTime":672.05,"body":"nothing there's nothing"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":672.05,"endTime":675.65,"body":"visceral, there's nothing being"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":672.05,"endTime":675.65,"body":"pumped into the blood. And yet"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":675.65,"endTime":679.79,"body":"the compulsion was so strong. In"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":675.65,"endTime":679.79,"body":"you see that with gambling, of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":679.79,"endTime":682.37,"body":"course, you know, quite"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":679.79,"endTime":682.37,"body":"frequently. So where do you draw"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":682.37,"endTime":683.72,"body":"the line? Right? And so"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":683.72,"endTime":685.82,"body":"Going back to the,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":683.72,"endTime":685.82,"body":"you know, what's going on inside"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":685.82,"endTime":689.09,"body":"the brain, then what would"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":685.82,"endTime":689.09,"body":"someone who's developed an"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":689.09,"endTime":691.34,"body":"addiction or a clinical"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":689.09,"endTime":691.34,"body":"addiction, however you want to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":691.34,"endTime":695.75,"body":"define it? Would, whether it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":691.34,"endTime":695.75,"body":"gambling or alcohol, or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":695.75,"endTime":698.39,"body":"whatever, would you say that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":695.75,"endTime":698.39,"body":"there's, then there's always"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":698.39,"endTime":703.49,"body":"going to have been a degree of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":698.39,"endTime":703.49,"body":"synaptic Genesis that that kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":703.49,"endTime":707.03,"body":"of is that was linked to the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":703.49,"endTime":707.03,"body":"automaticity of it, that or the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":707.03,"endTime":710.33,"body":"compulsion of it, whereby a kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":707.03,"endTime":710.33,"body":"of repeated use, and the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":710.33,"endTime":715.19,"body":"expectancies around some kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":710.33,"endTime":715.19,"body":"positive reward have generated,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":715.19,"endTime":718.4,"body":"you know, laying down those"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":715.19,"endTime":718.4,"body":"pathways or the kind of what is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":718.4,"endTime":722.12,"body":"it neurons that fire together"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":718.4,"endTime":722.12,"body":"wire together, that's the kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":722.12,"endTime":725.39,"body":"of think, you know, my"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":722.12,"endTime":725.39,"body":"understanding of the development"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":725.39,"endTime":728.78,"body":"of addiction, you know, I don't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":725.39,"endTime":728.78,"body":"think that qualifies it as a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":728.78,"endTime":732.05,"body":"disease, but that there's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":728.78,"endTime":732.05,"body":"synaptic genesis, but in turn,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":732.05,"endTime":735.02,"body":"there's also I think, you've"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":732.05,"endTime":735.02,"body":"described it as synaptic pruning"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":735.02,"endTime":739.34,"body":"before, where you can under as"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":735.02,"endTime":739.34,"body":"well. So, if you can undo it by,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":739.64,"endTime":743.06,"body":"you know, changing the behaviour"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":739.64,"endTime":743.06,"body":"or doing any of the treatment"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":743.06,"endTime":747.62,"body":"intervention, things that kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":743.06,"endTime":747.62,"body":"of result in not doing addictive"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":747.62,"endTime":751.43,"body":"behaviour, the the pruning takes"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":747.62,"endTime":751.43,"body":"place. So is this that common to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":751.43,"endTime":753.62,"body":"all addictions that are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":751.43,"endTime":753.62,"body":"fundamentally that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":753.62,"endTime":758.06,"body":"compulsiveness or pursuit of the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":753.62,"endTime":758.06,"body":"behaviour or loss of control is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":758.06,"endTime":761.81,"body":"underpinned, if you like by"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":758.06,"endTime":761.81,"body":"synaptic Genesis around certain"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":761.81,"endTime":765.35,"body":"rewarding behaviours, or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":761.81,"endTime":765.35,"body":"expectations, at least of that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":765.35,"endTime":765.8,"body":"reward?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":765.89,"endTime":770.45,"body":"Yes. But first of all,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":765.89,"endTime":770.45,"body":"a, it's complicated, of course,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":770.48,"endTime":774.86,"body":"be what you just described is,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":770.48,"endTime":774.86,"body":"is fundamental to all learning,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":774.95,"endTime":778.64,"body":"all learning. All learning"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":774.95,"endTime":778.64,"body":"depends on synaptogenesis, which"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":778.64,"endTime":782.63,"body":"means the the develop the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":778.64,"endTime":782.63,"body":"formation of synaptic networks,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":782.63,"endTime":785.63,"body":"so the neurons joined together"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":782.63,"endTime":785.63,"body":"through their dendrites and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":785.63,"endTime":788.24,"body":"axons, and they become a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":785.63,"endTime":788.24,"body":"configuration. And that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":788.24,"endTime":791.9,"body":"configuration becomes activated"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":788.24,"endTime":791.9,"body":"more and more often. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":791.9,"endTime":795.32,"body":"alternative configurations have"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":791.9,"endTime":795.32,"body":"less chance to develop, or"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":795.32,"endTime":799.28,"body":"become weakened in competition."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":795.32,"endTime":799.28,"body":"But that describes any learning"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":799.34,"endTime":801.14,"body":"the same thing with learning"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":799.34,"endTime":801.14,"body":"piano."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":801.32,"endTime":803.39,"body":"Yeah, I always"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":801.32,"endTime":803.39,"body":"think about learning to drive a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":803.39,"endTime":806.12,"body":"car, you know, when you get in,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":803.39,"endTime":806.12,"body":"you've got to think very"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":806.12,"endTime":808.94,"body":"consciously and follow the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":806.12,"endTime":808.94,"body":"instructions about what you're"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":808.94,"endTime":811.46,"body":"doing putting it into gear, and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":808.94,"endTime":811.46,"body":"then just the more you do it,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":811.46,"endTime":814.52,"body":"you know, I can drive without"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":811.46,"endTime":814.52,"body":"thinking at all about it and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":814.52,"endTime":817.61,"body":"have a conversation and listen"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":814.52,"endTime":817.61,"body":"to music and so on. So that's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":817.61,"endTime":821.66,"body":"essentially synaptic Genesis"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":817.61,"endTime":821.66,"body":"that's automated, if you like"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":821.69,"endTime":823.58,"body":"part of my brain to know how to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":821.69,"endTime":823.58,"body":"drive a car,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":823.7,"endTime":826.61,"body":"right? So it's synaptic"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":823.7,"endTime":826.61,"body":"genesis, that's the first half"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":826.61,"endTime":829.52,"body":"and then pruning is the second"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":826.61,"endTime":829.52,"body":"half. So pruning is very"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":829.52,"endTime":833.33,"body":"interesting, people don't really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":829.52,"endTime":833.33,"body":"get it, but it's once once you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":833.33,"endTime":836.27,"body":"develop a more elaborate"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":833.33,"endTime":836.27,"body":"synaptic network, you learn new"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":836.27,"endTime":838.94,"body":"skills or new keys on the piano,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":836.27,"endTime":838.94,"body":"you learn to drive a car,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":838.94,"endTime":842.42,"body":"whatever, then you have to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":838.94,"endTime":842.42,"body":"prune, which means that you get"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":842.42,"endTime":846.41,"body":"rid of weakened synapses, or you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":842.42,"endTime":846.41,"body":"get rid of synapses that are"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":846.41,"endTime":851.18,"body":"less relevant to the beat to the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":846.41,"endTime":851.18,"body":"rewarded behaviour. So you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":851.42,"endTime":856.76,"body":"it isn't necessary to what our"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":851.42,"endTime":856.76,"body":"auto no change lanes when"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":856.76,"endTime":860.06,"body":"there's a truck coming or"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":856.76,"endTime":860.06,"body":"something so whatever. So"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":860.06,"endTime":864.2,"body":"pruning is a really important"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":860.06,"endTime":864.2,"body":"aspect of consolidating the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":864.2,"endTime":867.95,"body":"learning, streamlining it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":864.2,"endTime":867.95,"body":"consolidated, that's the case in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":867.98,"endTime":870.86,"body":"addiction because really what"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":867.98,"endTime":870.86,"body":"you're doing is learning a habit"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":870.86,"endTime":876.11,"body":"of taking a substance or a drink"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":870.86,"endTime":876.11,"body":"that you more and more"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":876.11,"endTime":879.59,"body":"recognised as rewarding come to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":876.11,"endTime":879.59,"body":"expect it and then the pruning"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":879.59,"endTime":883.64,"body":"kind of streamlines it makes"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":879.59,"endTime":883.64,"body":"makes it like the only game in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":883.64,"endTime":887.45,"body":"town so to speak. But that's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":883.64,"endTime":887.45,"body":"that's only part of it. And a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":887.45,"endTime":890.93,"body":"lot of that stuff is general"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":887.45,"endTime":890.93,"body":"cortical information processing."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":891.02,"endTime":894.29,"body":"The cortex is, especially the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":891.02,"endTime":894.29,"body":"prefrontal cortex. Perhaps"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":894.32,"endTime":897.53,"body":"there's other aspects such as"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":894.32,"endTime":897.53,"body":"compulsion, which come from a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":897.53,"endTime":900.38,"body":"different part of the brain"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":897.53,"endTime":900.38,"body":"called the striatum. We is an"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":900.38,"endTime":903.95,"body":"older part of the brain. It's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":900.38,"endTime":903.95,"body":"not cortex. It's it's, it's more"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":903.95,"endTime":907.97,"body":"primitive, it's been around for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":903.95,"endTime":907.97,"body":"probably two or 300 million"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":907.97,"endTime":915.62,"body":"years, it works directly to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":907.97,"endTime":915.62,"body":"motivate the animal to pursue"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":915.95,"endTime":920.78,"body":"rewards, immediate rewards, low"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":915.95,"endTime":920.78,"body":"hanging fruit, so to speak. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":920.78,"endTime":924.05,"body":"that goes from being something"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":920.78,"endTime":924.05,"body":"like, you know, whether it's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":924.05,"endTime":927.59,"body":"grabbing a piece of pizza or an"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":924.05,"endTime":927.59,"body":"apple to put in your mouth, or"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":927.59,"endTime":930.35,"body":"whether it's a sex partner, or"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":927.59,"endTime":930.35,"body":"whether it's whatever it is any"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":930.35,"endTime":933.41,"body":"kind of resource, which could"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":930.35,"endTime":933.41,"body":"You could call that impulsive"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":933.41,"endTime":936.98,"body":"behaviour, and that's also part"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":933.41,"endTime":936.98,"body":"of addiction, but then it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":936.98,"endTime":941.81,"body":"becomes compulsive. So what's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":936.98,"endTime":941.81,"body":"that about? And in fact, a lot"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":941.81,"endTime":946.31,"body":"of things tend to wire up from"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":941.81,"endTime":946.31,"body":"impulse to compulsion, with"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":946.37,"endTime":949.91,"body":"repeated use. And that all it's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":946.37,"endTime":949.91,"body":"the same with driving, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":950.0,"endTime":952.82,"body":"you know, you change lanes, when"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":950.0,"endTime":952.82,"body":"you have to change lanes"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":952.82,"endTime":956.45,"body":"immediately without thinking"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":952.82,"endTime":956.45,"body":"about it. So that's like, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":956.45,"endTime":960.74,"body":"know, that's compulsive in the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":956.45,"endTime":960.74,"body":"same respect as taking a drink"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":960.74,"endTime":964.85,"body":"without really thinking about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":960.74,"endTime":964.85,"body":"it. And, for me, the best, the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":964.85,"endTime":969.26,"body":"best example of compulsive be of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":964.85,"endTime":969.26,"body":"normal compulsive behaviour, is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":969.26,"endTime":973.31,"body":"arguing with my wife, or my"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":969.26,"endTime":973.31,"body":"kids, like, I know that, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":973.31,"endTime":976.97,"body":"know, pursuing this argument is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":973.31,"endTime":976.97,"body":"going to do absolutely no good"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":976.97,"endTime":980.57,"body":"at all. But the words come out"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":976.97,"endTime":980.57,"body":"anyway. That's compulsive. I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":980.57,"endTime":983.6,"body":"mean, whatever, you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":980.57,"endTime":983.6,"body":"picking your nose with holes, I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":983.6,"endTime":985.88,"body":"mean, what there's so many"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":983.6,"endTime":985.88,"body":"things that are that are"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":985.88,"endTime":989.3,"body":"compulsive, we don't think about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":985.88,"endTime":989.3,"body":"them. But they're all that means"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":989.3,"endTime":993.2,"body":"is, it's a well ingrained habit"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":989.3,"endTime":993.2,"body":"that you are no longer thinking"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":993.2,"endTime":996.74,"body":"about, or planning or anything"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":993.2,"endTime":996.74,"body":"like that. It just happens. It's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":996.74,"endTime":999.89,"body":"stimulus bound, it's, it's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":996.74,"endTime":999.89,"body":"triggered by the stimulus, so to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":999.89,"endTime":1003.07,"body":"speak, so that that's an"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":999.89,"endTime":1003.07,"body":"important part of addiction, and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1003.07,"endTime":1005.62,"body":"that there's a certain amount of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1003.07,"endTime":1005.62,"body":"wiring that goes on in the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1005.62,"endTime":1010.96,"body":"striatum, when habits become"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1005.62,"endTime":1010.96,"body":"hyper, consolidated, which"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1010.99,"endTime":1013.39,"body":"involves that, and that's really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1010.99,"endTime":1013.39,"body":"useful information."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1013.69,"endTime":1017.17,"body":"So what about the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1013.69,"endTime":1017.17,"body":"process of recovery, again, to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1017.17,"endTime":1020.14,"body":"use a kind of clunky term in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1017.17,"endTime":1020.14,"body":"some senses, but you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1020.14,"endTime":1023.95,"body":"people understand what we mean,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1020.14,"endTime":1023.95,"body":"when we say, you know, I always"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1023.95,"endTime":1028.54,"body":"remember Robert West, saying,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1023.95,"endTime":1028.54,"body":"All behaviour is a competition"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1028.54,"endTime":1032.68,"body":"of motivation. And I like that,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1028.54,"endTime":1032.68,"body":"because I think, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1032.68,"endTime":1035.74,"body":"obviously, many kinds of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1032.68,"endTime":1035.74,"body":"theories of addiction with"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1035.77,"endTime":1039.46,"body":"empirical support, and, and so"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1035.77,"endTime":1039.46,"body":"on, but ultimately, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1039.46,"endTime":1042.28,"body":"when when someone decides to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1039.46,"endTime":1042.28,"body":"change, and they're really"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1042.28,"endTime":1046.57,"body":"motivated to do it, that's what"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1042.28,"endTime":1046.57,"body":"what drives it drives the kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1046.57,"endTime":1049.39,"body":"of change in behaviour and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1046.57,"endTime":1049.39,"body":"pursuing of things that they"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1049.39,"endTime":1053.65,"body":"believe or hope will will help"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1049.39,"endTime":1053.65,"body":"them in recovery, and then maybe"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1053.74,"endTime":1057.34,"body":"brain change will kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1053.74,"endTime":1057.34,"body":"follows as a result of that. But"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1057.34,"endTime":1060.43,"body":"you know, where maybe does"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1057.34,"endTime":1060.43,"body":"motivation fit in from a kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1060.43,"endTime":1061.69,"body":"neurological point of view?"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1061.91,"endTime":1065.78,"body":"Yeah, so so that's a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1061.91,"endTime":1065.78,"body":"good point. So a lot of people"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1065.78,"endTime":1068.42,"body":"aren't familiar with Kahneman,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1065.78,"endTime":1068.42,"body":"system one and system two,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1068.45,"endTime":1072.2,"body":"fasting versus slow, slow"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1068.45,"endTime":1072.2,"body":"thinking. So there's immediate"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1072.2,"endTime":1076.82,"body":"rapid response which compulsion,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1072.2,"endTime":1076.82,"body":"okay, and slow responses, slow"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1076.82,"endTime":1079.16,"body":"it down three or four seconds?"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1076.82,"endTime":1079.16,"body":"And wait a minute, do I really"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1079.16,"endTime":1081.86,"body":"want to do this, you know,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1079.16,"endTime":1081.86,"body":"because then I have to drive"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1081.86,"endTime":1086.9,"body":"home or wake up in the morning."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1081.86,"endTime":1086.9,"body":"And once you slow things down a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1086.9,"endTime":1091.22,"body":"bit, then you have a chance to,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1086.9,"endTime":1091.22,"body":"shall we say, Try on multiple"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1091.22,"endTime":1094.64,"body":"goals, I could have another"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1091.22,"endTime":1094.64,"body":"drink, or I could not have"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1094.64,"endTime":1096.83,"body":"another drink, I could go home"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1094.64,"endTime":1096.83,"body":"and read a book or watch"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1096.83,"endTime":1101.06,"body":"Netflix, or I could do various"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1096.83,"endTime":1101.06,"body":"links. And then motivation is"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1101.06,"endTime":1106.1,"body":"really the, shall we say, the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1101.06,"endTime":1106.1,"body":"way in which we select among"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1106.1,"endTime":1109.19,"body":"these competing behavioural"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1106.1,"endTime":1109.19,"body":"choices? What but you have to"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1109.19,"endTime":1112.82,"body":"slow things down for that to"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1109.19,"endTime":1112.82,"body":"happen. So I think one of the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1112.82,"endTime":1116.24,"body":"problems, we classically think"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1112.82,"endTime":1116.24,"body":"of addiction, whether it's"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1116.24,"endTime":1120.47,"body":"disease model or not, we think,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1116.24,"endTime":1120.47,"body":"Oh, it's all compulsive. No,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1120.47,"endTime":1124.13,"body":"it's not all compulsive. The"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1120.47,"endTime":1124.13,"body":"fact that the striatum is firing"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1124.13,"endTime":1127.94,"body":"away a compulsive, shall we say,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1124.13,"endTime":1127.94,"body":"command doesn't mean that the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1127.94,"endTime":1131.39,"body":"rest of the brain turns off, it"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1127.94,"endTime":1131.39,"body":"doesn't. The rest of the brain"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1131.39,"endTime":1134.45,"body":"is still going. So you still got"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1131.39,"endTime":1134.45,"body":"your prefrontal cortex activated"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1134.45,"endTime":1137.54,"body":"at the same time. And I think"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1134.45,"endTime":1137.54,"body":"that's a really important"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1137.63,"endTime":1138.56,"body":"perspective."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1138.86,"endTime":1141.56,"body":"Yeah, and I think,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1138.86,"endTime":1141.56,"body":"you know, is really important as"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1141.56,"endTime":1145.25,"body":"well to, you know, think about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1141.56,"endTime":1145.25,"body":"the kind of functional type of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1145.25,"endTime":1148.46,"body":"approach to addiction that, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1145.25,"endTime":1148.46,"body":"know, still in relation to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1148.46,"endTime":1151.97,"body":"motivation, but, you know, if"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1148.46,"endTime":1151.97,"body":"your life is really awful, and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1151.97,"endTime":1154.85,"body":"you've got, you know, very"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1151.97,"endTime":1154.85,"body":"little prospects or you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1154.85,"endTime":1158.66,"body":"maybe a lot of physical or other"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1154.85,"endTime":1158.66,"body":"illnesses or mental health"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1158.66,"endTime":1162.41,"body":"problems, you know, your"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1158.66,"endTime":1162.41,"body":"motivation to change or to let"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1162.41,"endTime":1165.8,"body":"go of, or try and address and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1162.41,"endTime":1165.8,"body":"addictive behaviour that may not"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1165.8,"endTime":1169.04,"body":"actually be causing you huge"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1165.8,"endTime":1169.04,"body":"problems, you know, is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1169.04,"endTime":1172.43,"body":"understandably very low, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1169.04,"endTime":1172.43,"body":"know, in many senses a rational"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1172.43,"endTime":1176.0,"body":"choice to continue using drugs"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1172.43,"endTime":1176.0,"body":"that make us feel better, even"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1176.0,"endTime":1178.49,"body":"if there are some negative"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1176.0,"endTime":1178.49,"body":"consequences, but the overall"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1178.49,"endTime":1179.75,"body":"outlook is very poor."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1179.84,"endTime":1182.9,"body":"Absolutely. That's I"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1179.84,"endTime":1182.9,"body":"mean, that yes, we would agree"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1182.9,"endTime":1185.96,"body":"that I think that's the irony,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1182.9,"endTime":1185.96,"body":"so to speak, built into"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1185.96,"endTime":1190.19,"body":"addiction at many scale, you"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1185.96,"endTime":1190.19,"body":"know, whether it's whether it's"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1190.19,"endTime":1193.4,"body":"alcohol or drugs, it does tend"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1190.19,"endTime":1193.4,"body":"to make you feel better for a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1193.4,"endTime":1197.6,"body":"while and nothing is"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1193.4,"endTime":1197.6,"body":"indisputable. That's why people"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1197.63,"endTime":1200.42,"body":"take new things right. And the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1197.63,"endTime":1200.42,"body":"worse you feel in your Life, the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1200.42,"endTime":1203.03,"body":"more tempting and attractive"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1200.42,"endTime":1203.03,"body":"that is. And then, of course,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1203.03,"endTime":1206.21,"body":"you know, you feel crap here"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1203.03,"endTime":1206.21,"body":"later on or the next day, or,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1206.24,"endTime":1208.73,"body":"you know, the next week,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1206.24,"endTime":1208.73,"body":"whatever. And so there's one"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1208.73,"endTime":1212.48,"body":"level of the irony, but it's,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1208.73,"endTime":1212.48,"body":"it's so fundamental to human"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1212.48,"endTime":1216.35,"body":"behaviour. James, I mean, if you"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1212.48,"endTime":1216.35,"body":"look at infants, like, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1216.38,"endTime":1220.7,"body":"we can call all this stuff,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1216.38,"endTime":1220.7,"body":"emotion regulation. Okay? How do"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1220.7,"endTime":1223.88,"body":"you control your? How do you"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1220.7,"endTime":1223.88,"body":"regulate your moods or emotions?"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1224.18,"endTime":1228.02,"body":"Well, you know, six month old"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1224.18,"endTime":1228.02,"body":"babies will, if they start to"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1228.02,"endTime":1231.83,"body":"get to arouse, they will look"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1228.02,"endTime":1231.83,"body":"away from, say, mother's face,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1231.83,"endTime":1235.88,"body":"just gaze aversion, because, you"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1231.83,"endTime":1235.88,"body":"know, that makes them feel less"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1235.88,"endTime":1239.42,"body":"or makes him feel calmer for for"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1235.88,"endTime":1239.42,"body":"a few months, but then they lose"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1239.42,"endTime":1243.08,"body":"some contact. So again, there's"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1239.42,"endTime":1243.08,"body":"a double whammy of an immediate,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1243.38,"endTime":1248.75,"body":"an immediate benefit versus some"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1243.38,"endTime":1248.75,"body":"kind of loss or possibly, you"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1248.75,"endTime":1254.09,"body":"know, longer term change that is"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1248.75,"endTime":1254.09,"body":"not that is not, well, I made it"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1254.09,"endTime":1257.36,"body":"with babies, it's just the way"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1254.09,"endTime":1257.36,"body":"they are. And that's fine. But,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1257.6,"endTime":1260.87,"body":"but but the certain attachment"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1257.6,"endTime":1260.87,"body":"styles will develop around gaze"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1260.87,"endTime":1264.89,"body":"aversion, insecure attachment,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1260.87,"endTime":1264.89,"body":"and it's just not that"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1264.89,"endTime":1268.37,"body":"different. Some things that make"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1264.89,"endTime":1268.37,"body":"us feel better right away, make"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1268.37,"endTime":1271.25,"body":"us feel worse in the long term."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1268.37,"endTime":1271.25,"body":"And that's, that's the human"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1271.25,"endTime":1271.79,"body":"condition."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1271.88,"endTime":1274.58,"body":"There's a very"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1271.88,"endTime":1274.58,"body":"strong literature on the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1274.58,"endTime":1279.2,"body":"function and the role of emotion"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1274.58,"endTime":1279.2,"body":"regulation, positive and or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1279.2,"endTime":1281.39,"body":"negative, although"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1279.2,"endTime":1281.39,"body":"interestingly, a recent meta"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1281.39,"endTime":1285.59,"body":"analysis came out showing that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1281.39,"endTime":1285.59,"body":"positive emotion regulation is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1285.59,"endTime":1289.01,"body":"much more of a factor in, in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1285.59,"endTime":1289.01,"body":"alcohol use and problems, I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1289.01,"endTime":1290.84,"body":"think, then, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1289.01,"endTime":1290.84,"body":"traditionally, we think that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1290.84,"endTime":1294.05,"body":"obviously, you know, managing"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1290.84,"endTime":1294.05,"body":"anxiety or depressive symptoms"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1294.05,"endTime":1299.36,"body":"drives much of addiction, but"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1294.05,"endTime":1299.36,"body":"seems that that kind of use of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1299.39,"endTime":1302.96,"body":"uplifting your kind of mood, as"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1299.39,"endTime":1302.96,"body":"well as controlling the kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1302.96,"endTime":1305.27,"body":"lower mood is playing a really"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1302.96,"endTime":1305.27,"body":"key role."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1305.48,"endTime":1307.22,"body":"emotional"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1305.48,"endTime":1307.22,"body":"regulation. I mean, it's such a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1307.22,"endTime":1310.82,"body":"big thing. It sounds like some"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1307.22,"endTime":1310.82,"body":"little, you know, sub domain of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1310.82,"endTime":1313.91,"body":"psychology. But I mean, that's"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1310.82,"endTime":1313.91,"body":"what we that's almost everything"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1313.91,"endTime":1315.74,"body":"we do is emotion regulation,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1313.91,"endTime":1315.74,"body":"right."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1315.95,"endTime":1318.44,"body":"And thinking about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1315.95,"endTime":1318.44,"body":"earlier as well, another thing I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1318.44,"endTime":1321.8,"body":"was thinking was around, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1318.44,"endTime":1321.8,"body":"know, motivated reasoning. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1322.25,"endTime":1325.07,"body":"when we're talking about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1322.25,"endTime":1325.07,"body":"motivation to change behaviours,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1325.07,"endTime":1328.67,"body":"but you know, like, emotions"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1325.07,"endTime":1328.67,"body":"also influence our reasoning."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1328.67,"endTime":1331.91,"body":"And, you know, someone might"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1328.67,"endTime":1331.91,"body":"say, well say that they don't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1331.91,"endTime":1334.97,"body":"believe the vaccine works, but"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1331.91,"endTime":1334.97,"body":"it might be motivated by fear of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1334.97,"endTime":1337.55,"body":"needles and or like, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1334.97,"endTime":1337.55,"body":"they might not feel that they"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1337.55,"endTime":1339.92,"body":"want to say they're scared of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1337.55,"endTime":1339.92,"body":"needles. So there's lots of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1339.92,"endTime":1343.7,"body":"other kinds of rationalisations,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1339.92,"endTime":1343.7,"body":"or justifications for things we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1343.7,"endTime":1348.17,"body":"do. And yeah, huge literature on"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1343.7,"endTime":1348.17,"body":"how emotions mediate so many"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1348.17,"endTime":1350.78,"body":"kinds of thought processes or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1348.17,"endTime":1350.78,"body":"behaviours, right?"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1350.78,"endTime":1353.27,"body":"Yeah. One of your"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1350.78,"endTime":1353.27,"body":"countrymen, Keith Oatley, an"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1353.27,"endTime":1356.21,"body":"emotion theorist, somebody I"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1353.27,"endTime":1356.21,"body":"like and respect very much"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1356.24,"endTime":1359.33,"body":"really emphasise the idea that"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1356.24,"endTime":1359.33,"body":"we have multiple goals. At the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1359.33,"endTime":1361.79,"body":"same time, we don't just one"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1359.33,"endTime":1361.79,"body":"goal, we have many we have"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1361.79,"endTime":1365.39,"body":"several. And you know, when you"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1361.79,"endTime":1365.39,"body":"like, just like, there's three"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1365.39,"endTime":1368.93,"body":"pieces of pizza left in the box,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1365.39,"endTime":1368.93,"body":"or whatever. It's like, why"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1368.93,"endTime":1372.26,"body":"should I have another one, but"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1368.93,"endTime":1372.26,"body":"then if I did, then somebody"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1372.26,"endTime":1375.47,"body":"else might not get their second"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1372.26,"endTime":1375.47,"body":"or third or whatever. And then I"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1375.47,"endTime":1379.73,"body":"probably feel too stuffed"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1375.47,"endTime":1379.73,"body":"anyway. And there's so many"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1379.73,"endTime":1382.22,"body":"little factors impinging on that"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1379.73,"endTime":1382.22,"body":"one little decision."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1382.52,"endTime":1384.98,"body":"Exactly, and just"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1382.52,"endTime":1384.98,"body":"how your day has been, and you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1384.98,"endTime":1387.29,"body":"know, How hungry are and all"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1384.98,"endTime":1387.29,"body":"these kind of things. And I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1387.29,"endTime":1390.8,"body":"guess, addictions, the same as"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1387.29,"endTime":1390.8,"body":"1000s of things that, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1390.8,"endTime":1393.71,"body":"could mediate, or moderate, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1390.8,"endTime":1393.71,"body":"know, the choice you ultimately"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1393.71,"endTime":1395.06,"body":"make at any given moment,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1395.21,"endTime":1397.85,"body":"it does, but then it"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1395.21,"endTime":1397.85,"body":"does that more at first, and"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1397.85,"endTime":1402.71,"body":"then as the addiction settles in"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1397.85,"endTime":1402.71,"body":"place, it becomes less. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1402.83,"endTime":1406.82,"body":"there's some really interesting"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1402.83,"endTime":1406.82,"body":"research that shows that with"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1406.85,"endTime":1410.54,"body":"with months and years of of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1406.85,"endTime":1410.54,"body":"addiction to various substances,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1410.54,"endTime":1415.82,"body":"including alcohol, you get less"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1410.54,"endTime":1415.82,"body":"prefrontal activation in certain"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1415.82,"endTime":1421.85,"body":"regions, measured by fMRI. And"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1415.82,"endTime":1421.85,"body":"that's what that really means"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1421.85,"endTime":1424.4,"body":"that those parts of the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1421.85,"endTime":1424.4,"body":"prefrontal cortex are involved"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1424.4,"endTime":1428.93,"body":"in planning. Okay, so if you've"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1424.4,"endTime":1428.93,"body":"been doing the same damn thing"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1428.93,"endTime":1432.41,"body":"every day, for the last five"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1428.93,"endTime":1432.41,"body":"years, or every evening, when"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1432.41,"endTime":1434.9,"body":"you leave work, you go to the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1432.41,"endTime":1434.9,"body":"same pile, you don't, you're not"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1434.9,"endTime":1438.89,"body":"doing much planning, just"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1434.9,"endTime":1438.89,"body":"planning going on. You just do"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1438.89,"endTime":1439.25,"body":"it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1439.94,"endTime":1442.61,"body":"That being tied in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1439.94,"endTime":1442.61,"body":"with synaptic pruning, or is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1442.61,"endTime":1443.69,"body":"that kind of different?"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1443.93,"endTime":1446.03,"body":"Now that is, that's"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1443.93,"endTime":1446.03,"body":"pretty much Well, I think it's"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1446.03,"endTime":1449.36,"body":"very much tied in with it, from"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1446.03,"endTime":1449.36,"body":"going to classic disease model"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1449.36,"endTime":1452.3,"body":"perspective, they say, oh,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1449.36,"endTime":1452.3,"body":"that's brain damage. No, it's"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1452.9,"endTime":1456.74,"body":"not brain damage. It's a habit."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1452.9,"endTime":1456.74,"body":"And so when you have habits, you"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1456.74,"endTime":1459.47,"body":"have less choices to make fewer"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1456.74,"endTime":1459.47,"body":"choices to make, when you have"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1459.47,"endTime":1462.23,"body":"fewer choices to make, guess"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1459.47,"endTime":1462.23,"body":"what your brain is actually"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1462.26,"endTime":1466.01,"body":"doing its job most efficiently,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1462.26,"endTime":1466.01,"body":"as isn't wasting his time, or"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1466.01,"endTime":1469.61,"body":"energy or metabolic and"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1466.01,"endTime":1469.61,"body":"resources on making a whole"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1469.73,"endTime":1472.64,"body":"bunch of decisions. Because you"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1469.73,"endTime":1472.64,"body":"don't have to make a whole bunch"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1472.64,"endTime":1476.03,"body":"of decisions a day to day life."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1472.64,"endTime":1476.03,"body":"You just have to make a few."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1476.72,"endTime":1479.96,"body":"And I guess the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1476.72,"endTime":1479.96,"body":"other thing I'm interested in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1479.96,"endTime":1482.54,"body":"is, you know, where do we draw"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1479.96,"endTime":1482.54,"body":"the line that you know, I think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1482.6,"endTime":1486.08,"body":"almost all of these things we're"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1482.6,"endTime":1486.08,"body":"talking about can be seen on"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1486.11,"endTime":1490.61,"body":"continuums or spectrums of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1486.11,"endTime":1490.61,"body":"severity and brain change can be"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1490.61,"endTime":1494.93,"body":"included in that. So you know"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1490.61,"endTime":1494.93,"body":"what if neuro adaptation did"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1494.93,"endTime":1499.7,"body":"constitute a disease or lack of,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1494.93,"endTime":1499.7,"body":"you know, ability to respond or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1499.7,"endTime":1502.97,"body":"kind of exert control. And then"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1499.7,"endTime":1502.97,"body":"presumably, you'd have to draw a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1502.97,"endTime":1505.88,"body":"line in the sand somewhere and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1502.97,"endTime":1505.88,"body":"say this is diseased, and this"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1505.88,"endTime":1508.91,"body":"isn't. But then again, perhaps,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1505.88,"endTime":1508.91,"body":"you know, maybe it's just, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1508.91,"endTime":1511.73,"body":"know, people don't like the idea"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1508.91,"endTime":1511.73,"body":"of being a little bit diseased,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1511.73,"endTime":1514.79,"body":"whereas people would accept that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1511.73,"endTime":1514.79,"body":"you can be a little bit ill."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1515.54,"endTime":1517.88,"body":"Yeah, you know, it"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1515.54,"endTime":1517.88,"body":"does get complicated, doesn't"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1517.88,"endTime":1521.9,"body":"it? That when you think about it"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1517.88,"endTime":1521.9,"body":"that way, I think there are"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1521.9,"endTime":1525.11,"body":"other issues, mental health"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1521.9,"endTime":1525.11,"body":"issues at which it's even more"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1525.11,"endTime":1527.99,"body":"problematic. For example,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1525.11,"endTime":1527.99,"body":"depression, to depression and"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1527.99,"endTime":1531.23,"body":"anxiety, as we know, are quite"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1527.99,"endTime":1531.23,"body":"common. And most of us feel"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1531.23,"endTime":1534.95,"body":"depression at some point. And"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1531.23,"endTime":1534.95,"body":"some people feel depressed a lot"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1534.95,"endTime":1540.23,"body":"of the time. At what point does"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1534.95,"endTime":1540.23,"body":"it come become major depressive"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1540.23,"endTime":1543.86,"body":"disorder? Well, once its major"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1540.23,"endTime":1543.86,"body":"depressive disorder, it's a DSM"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1543.86,"endTime":1548.81,"body":"category that, that then calls"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1543.86,"endTime":1548.81,"body":"for antidepressant therapy,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1548.81,"endTime":1551.69,"body":"blah, blah, blah, SSRIs. And"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1548.81,"endTime":1551.69,"body":"well, should we call it a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1551.69,"endTime":1555.2,"body":"disease, then is it actually"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1551.69,"endTime":1555.2,"body":"fundamentally different? Are you"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1555.2,"endTime":1557.75,"body":"just spending more of your time"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1555.2,"endTime":1557.75,"body":"in a particular state and"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1557.75,"endTime":1561.83,"body":"developing life habits, which"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1557.75,"endTime":1561.83,"body":"tend to facilitate it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1562.19,"endTime":1566.45,"body":"On a previous"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1562.19,"endTime":1566.45,"body":"episode with Dr. Lucy, folks,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1566.45,"endTime":1569.15,"body":"you know, we talked about this,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1566.45,"endTime":1569.15,"body":"and, you know, her, her kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1569.15,"endTime":1572.09,"body":"specialism is, you know, kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1569.15,"endTime":1572.09,"body":"understanding, you know, the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1572.09,"endTime":1575.3,"body":"aetiology, and processes around"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1572.09,"endTime":1575.3,"body":"mental health, and then the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1575.3,"endTime":1577.49,"body":"language and labelling that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1575.3,"endTime":1577.49,"body":"falls around that. And, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1577.49,"endTime":1580.07,"body":"know, she says, you know, these"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1577.49,"endTime":1580.07,"body":"are all kind of things that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1580.07,"endTime":1582.68,"body":"exists on continuums, as well."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1580.07,"endTime":1582.68,"body":"And these are, these are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1582.68,"endTime":1585.5,"body":"clinical functions, that we have"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1582.68,"endTime":1585.5,"body":"to draw a line in the sand"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1585.5,"endTime":1589.07,"body":"somewhere and put a diagnosis on"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1585.5,"endTime":1589.07,"body":"it for utilitarian purpose of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1589.07,"endTime":1592.19,"body":"saying, These are the point at"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1589.07,"endTime":1592.19,"body":"which they become problems where"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1592.19,"endTime":1596.39,"body":"we need to try and design"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1592.19,"endTime":1596.39,"body":"treatments around. I think, I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1596.39,"endTime":1599.87,"body":"think there's validity to that."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1596.39,"endTime":1599.87,"body":"But we also need to work very"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1599.87,"endTime":1604.52,"body":"hard to try and improve"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1599.87,"endTime":1604.52,"body":"understanding that although we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1604.52,"endTime":1608.03,"body":"have these kinds of diagnostic"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1604.52,"endTime":1608.03,"body":"labels, and kind of disease"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1608.03,"endTime":1610.85,"body":"orientated concepts, that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1608.03,"endTime":1610.85,"body":"there's a lot of costs to that,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1610.85,"endTime":1614.99,"body":"and actually, they are on on"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1610.85,"endTime":1614.99,"body":"spectrums. And you know, we were"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1614.99,"endTime":1617.48,"body":"kind of talking about, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1614.99,"endTime":1617.48,"body":"there seems to be a correlation"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1617.48,"endTime":1620.33,"body":"between things that people"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1617.48,"endTime":1620.33,"body":"accept as existing on"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1620.33,"endTime":1624.26,"body":"continuums, like autism and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1620.33,"endTime":1624.26,"body":"depression and anxiety and lower"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1624.26,"endTime":1627.56,"body":"stigma, whereas things that are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1624.26,"endTime":1627.56,"body":"seen as fundamentally different"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1627.8,"endTime":1632.24,"body":"schizophrenia, or if you call it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1627.8,"endTime":1632.24,"body":"alcoholism, people see it as two"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1632.24,"endTime":1634.91,"body":"groups of people, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1632.24,"endTime":1634.91,"body":"alcoholics and, and everybody"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1634.91,"endTime":1638.45,"body":"else, that's when stigma really"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1634.91,"endTime":1638.45,"body":"kicks in. Because, you know, a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1638.45,"endTime":1641.93,"body":"fundamental part of stigma is,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1638.45,"endTime":1641.93,"body":"you know, fundamental difference"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1641.93,"endTime":1645.44,"body":"between different groups and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1641.93,"endTime":1645.44,"body":"dehumanising the outgroup, and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1645.44,"endTime":1648.89,"body":"so on. So but then, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1645.44,"endTime":1648.89,"body":"addiction as a term is also"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1648.89,"endTime":1651.65,"body":"problematic, because again, it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1648.89,"endTime":1651.65,"body":"a binary, really, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1651.65,"endTime":1655.43,"body":"people don't really think about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1651.65,"endTime":1655.43,"body":"addiction as kind of very mild"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1655.43,"endTime":1659.63,"body":"or low severity is so heavily"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1655.43,"endTime":1659.63,"body":"embedded within the idea of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1659.66,"endTime":1662.57,"body":"disease and recovery, and rock"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1659.66,"endTime":1662.57,"body":"bottom, and all those kinds of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1662.57,"endTime":1665.33,"body":"things. So, you know, sometimes"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1662.57,"endTime":1665.33,"body":"I use the term addiction, but"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1665.33,"endTime":1668.27,"body":"again, I try and always say,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1665.33,"endTime":1668.27,"body":"Yeah, but we've got to also"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1668.69,"endTime":1672.77,"body":"recognise that is a label that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1668.69,"endTime":1672.77,"body":"covers something ever so complex"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1672.8,"endTime":1673.55,"body":"and spectral"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1673.55,"endTime":1675.77,"body":"yes and on a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1673.55,"endTime":1675.77,"body":"spectrum, it's really important."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1676.07,"endTime":1680.39,"body":"And present culture. I mean, the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1676.07,"endTime":1680.39,"body":"term neuro diversity, right,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1680.39,"endTime":1684.8,"body":"it's become quite well,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1680.39,"endTime":1684.8,"body":"involved. Yeah. Yeah. And I"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1684.8,"endTime":1687.8,"body":"think that's terrific. So people"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1684.8,"endTime":1687.8,"body":"who have mild autism or"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1687.8,"endTime":1691.07,"body":"Asperger's or whatever, it's"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1687.8,"endTime":1691.07,"body":"like, okay, so you just think a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1691.07,"endTime":1695.51,"body":"little bit differently than then"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1691.07,"endTime":1695.51,"body":"I do. You know, and then yes, it"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1695.51,"endTime":1699.71,"body":"loses its stigma. And I think"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1695.51,"endTime":1699.71,"body":"that's a better world. And I"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1699.71,"endTime":1702.74,"body":"think it's a much more open and"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1699.71,"endTime":1702.74,"body":"humanistic world."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1702.86,"endTime":1705.77,"body":"Yeah, and I think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1702.86,"endTime":1705.77,"body":"I probably would also defend a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1705.77,"endTime":1710.21,"body":"disease model, you know, again,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1705.77,"endTime":1710.21,"body":"in another episode, in terms of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1710.6,"endTime":1713.93,"body":"not a brain disease model, but a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1710.6,"endTime":1713.93,"body":"disease model in the sense that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1713.96,"endTime":1717.95,"body":"a lot of people go through"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1713.96,"endTime":1717.95,"body":"recovery by self identifying as,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1718.07,"endTime":1721.43,"body":"you know, disease, and you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1718.07,"endTime":1721.43,"body":"yourself, have self identified"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1721.43,"endTime":1725.54,"body":"as an addict. And that can, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1721.43,"endTime":1725.54,"body":"know, presumably, partly informs"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1725.6,"endTime":1729.08,"body":"your kind of behaviours and, and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1725.6,"endTime":1729.08,"body":"your approaches to other"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1729.08,"endTime":1733.07,"body":"substances, having had that past"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1729.08,"endTime":1733.07,"body":"experience of what you describe"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1733.07,"endTime":1733.97,"body":"as addiction,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1734.33,"endTime":1736.76,"body":"for sure, yeah. But"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1734.33,"endTime":1736.76,"body":"then there's people like Sean"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1736.76,"endTime":1740.57,"body":"Shelley, who, Sean is an"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1736.76,"endTime":1740.57,"body":"addiction policy researcher in"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1740.57,"endTime":1745.64,"body":"South Africa, wonderful guy. And"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1740.57,"endTime":1745.64,"body":"for him, the word addiction is"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1745.64,"endTime":1748.55,"body":"useless, is it? I don't even"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1745.64,"endTime":1748.55,"body":"know what it means anymore."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1749.9,"endTime":1753.68,"body":"People, you know, make"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1749.9,"endTime":1753.68,"body":"adaptations to their quality of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1753.68,"endTime":1757.64,"body":"life issues. And based on what's"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1753.68,"endTime":1757.64,"body":"available, what's, you know,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1757.64,"endTime":1761.66,"body":"what's really just that what's"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1757.64,"endTime":1761.66,"body":"available, which is partly"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1761.66,"endTime":1765.41,"body":"economic, partly social, partly"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1761.66,"endTime":1765.41,"body":"access, and all the rest of it."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1765.8,"endTime":1770.33,"body":"So what's addiction? I mean, if"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1765.8,"endTime":1770.33,"body":"a certain thing is available,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1770.48,"endTime":1773.84,"body":"and other things are not"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1770.48,"endTime":1773.84,"body":"available ever, then behaviour"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1773.84,"endTime":1777.44,"body":"becomes highly, you know,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1773.84,"endTime":1777.44,"body":"consistent over time. Is that"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1777.44,"endTime":1778.94,"body":"addiction? I don't know."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1779.78,"endTime":1781.79,"body":"Well, yeah. And I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1779.78,"endTime":1781.79,"body":"can, you know, certainly with"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1781.79,"endTime":1784.97,"body":"the case of alcohol, it's the,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1781.79,"endTime":1784.97,"body":"you know, our society is so"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1785.0,"endTime":1789.86,"body":"alco-genic. It's everywhere, and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1785.0,"endTime":1789.86,"body":"hugely normalised. Yeah. You"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1789.86,"endTime":1794.03,"body":"know, you can argue that it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1789.86,"endTime":1794.03,"body":"as, if not more harmful than"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1794.06,"endTime":1798.74,"body":"almost any other illicit drugs."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1794.06,"endTime":1798.74,"body":"But it's just totally normalised"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1798.74,"endTime":1802.16,"body":"in in many ways. I mean, we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1798.74,"endTime":1802.16,"body":"still have a, you know, a very"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1802.19,"endTime":1805.46,"body":"stigmatised view of people who"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1802.19,"endTime":1805.46,"body":"are deemed to have alcohol"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1805.46,"endTime":1808.97,"body":"problems. But that I think, in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1805.46,"endTime":1808.97,"body":"part is a way in which people"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1809.0,"endTime":1812.51,"body":"who are drinkers, often heavier"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1809.0,"endTime":1812.51,"body":"drinkers protect themselves or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1812.69,"endTime":1815.54,"body":"normalise their own use by"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1812.69,"endTime":1815.54,"body":"creating that out group of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1815.54,"endTime":1819.38,"body":"problem drinkers. And you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1815.54,"endTime":1819.38,"body":"briefly mentioned to me you kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1819.38,"endTime":1821.9,"body":"of questioning your own alcohol"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1819.38,"endTime":1821.9,"body":"use is that something you're"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1821.9,"endTime":1823.91,"body":"happy to talk about? It's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1821.9,"endTime":1823.91,"body":"something that, you know, I'm"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1823.94,"endTime":1826.97,"body":"always reflecting on having"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1823.94,"endTime":1826.97,"body":"developed an alcohol problem at"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1826.97,"endTime":1829.94,"body":"a pretty young age, I didn't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1826.97,"endTime":1829.94,"body":"drink throughout most of my 20s."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1829.94,"endTime":1832.73,"body":"And then I've kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1829.94,"endTime":1832.73,"body":"experimented against the the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1832.73,"endTime":1835.73,"body":"sort of common idea that you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1832.73,"endTime":1835.73,"body":"should never drink again, once"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1835.73,"endTime":1838.73,"body":"you've had a problem. And I've"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1835.73,"endTime":1838.73,"body":"now been drinking moderately,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1838.73,"endTime":1841.76,"body":"you know, pretty much within low"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1838.73,"endTime":1841.76,"body":"risk guidelines for over 10"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1841.79,"endTime":1844.58,"body":"years now without any problems,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1841.79,"endTime":1844.58,"body":"but I don't feel like I've"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1844.61,"endTime":1848.33,"body":"fundamentally changed, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1844.61,"endTime":1848.33,"body":"I do feel like in a way, my"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1848.33,"endTime":1852.68,"body":"brain has fundamentally changed"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1848.33,"endTime":1852.68,"body":"in the sense that, you know, I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1852.68,"endTime":1857.66,"body":"used to drink very heavily to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1852.68,"endTime":1857.66,"body":"deal with Why didn't recognise"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1857.66,"endTime":1861.77,"body":"but sort of think were"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1857.66,"endTime":1861.77,"body":"problematic emotional states, or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1861.8,"endTime":1864.59,"body":"unresolved issues, or however"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1861.8,"endTime":1864.59,"body":"you want to call it, whereas now"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1864.59,"endTime":1867.74,"body":"I kind of have the opposite kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1864.59,"endTime":1867.74,"body":"of instinct that if I feel"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1867.74,"endTime":1871.4,"body":"stressed, or in a kind of low"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1867.74,"endTime":1871.4,"body":"place, like that's the last time"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1871.4,"endTime":1873.95,"body":"I actually want to drink now,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1871.4,"endTime":1873.95,"body":"but I think that's a it's been a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1873.95,"endTime":1878.36,"body":"long journey. And and a lot of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1873.95,"endTime":1878.36,"body":"that is the kind of thinking and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1878.39,"endTime":1881.75,"body":"restructuring of the role of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1878.39,"endTime":1881.75,"body":"alcohol and other things in my"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1881.75,"endTime":1882.32,"body":"life."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1882.47,"endTime":1885.11,"body":"Yeah, that's really"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1882.47,"endTime":1885.11,"body":"interesting. Very, very"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1885.11,"endTime":1888.08,"body":"interesting. And yeah, yes, I"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1885.11,"endTime":1888.08,"body":"don't mind talking about it my"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1888.08,"endTime":1892.22,"body":"own. So yeah, what I actually"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1888.08,"endTime":1892.22,"body":"when I gave up opiates, or"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1892.22,"endTime":1898.31,"body":"cardiac keys, around the age of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1892.22,"endTime":1898.31,"body":"3130 31, I actually started"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1898.31,"endTime":1902.54,"body":"drinking, but at quite a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1898.31,"endTime":1902.54,"body":"reasonable level, like 333"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1902.54,"endTime":1906.11,"body":"drinks a night, and that was it."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1902.54,"endTime":1906.11,"body":"And it helped me as a bridge."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1906.26,"endTime":1910.34,"body":"But okay, so that lasted for a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1906.26,"endTime":1910.34,"body":"while. And then you know, life"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1910.34,"endTime":1913.82,"body":"goes on. And there were times"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1910.34,"endTime":1913.82,"body":"when dating and relationships"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1913.82,"endTime":1919.88,"body":"and stuff and Martini bars and"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1913.82,"endTime":1919.88,"body":"having lots of fun and all that."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1920.12,"endTime":1925.67,"body":"And now I still I drink, I"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1920.12,"endTime":1925.67,"body":"usually drink two drinks a night"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1925.67,"endTime":1931.43,"body":"or so. Maybe three. And I do"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1925.67,"endTime":1931.43,"body":"find it kind of a habit that's"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1931.43,"endTime":1935.42,"body":"hard to break. But it's it is"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1931.43,"endTime":1935.42,"body":"within I think relatively"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1935.42,"endTime":1940.01,"body":"normal, it's fairly safe range"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1935.42,"endTime":1940.01,"body":"for men, but you know, I could"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1940.01,"endTime":1942.86,"body":"probably cut it down and be a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1940.01,"endTime":1942.86,"body":"little better, especially as I'm"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1942.86,"endTime":1948.38,"body":"ageing. You don't really want to"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1942.86,"endTime":1948.38,"body":"waste any, any neurons. Right?"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1948.71,"endTime":1955.19,"body":"And so, and there is some effect"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1948.71,"endTime":1955.19,"body":"on on short term memory. But"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1955.19,"endTime":1960.65,"body":"it's, it's fairly minor. So to"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1955.19,"endTime":1960.65,"body":"me, that's kind of a long term,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1960.95,"endTime":1965.48,"body":"deep habit of I like having"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1960.95,"endTime":1965.48,"body":"stuff, you know, I like having"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1965.48,"endTime":1969.8,"body":"stuff. And even though it's a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1965.48,"endTime":1969.8,"body":"different stuff, it's still I do"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1969.8,"endTime":1973.25,"body":"find it comforting and kind of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1969.8,"endTime":1973.25,"body":"fun. And but I don't like having"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1973.25,"endTime":1975.86,"body":"more than that amount of alcohol"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1973.25,"endTime":1975.86,"body":"guy just because it doesn't feel"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1975.86,"endTime":1978.71,"body":"good to me. So that's pretty"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":1975.86,"endTime":1978.71,"body":"much where I'm at."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1978.92,"endTime":1980.81,"body":"That's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1978.92,"endTime":1980.81,"body":"interesting. Yeah, and I think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1980.84,"endTime":1984.74,"body":"fairly safe was your phrasing,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1980.84,"endTime":1984.74,"body":"we did an episode where I spoke"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1984.74,"endTime":1988.88,"body":"to a couple of people, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1984.74,"endTime":1988.88,"body":"have expertise around? How do we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1988.91,"endTime":1991.19,"body":"try and assess the level of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1988.91,"endTime":1991.19,"body":"risk? You know, what are the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1991.19,"endTime":1994.91,"body":"recommended guidelines based on"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1991.19,"endTime":1994.91,"body":"something like, you know, we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1994.91,"endTime":1998.99,"body":"have a limit of 41, a guideline"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1994.91,"endTime":1998.99,"body":"of 14 units a week, which is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1998.99,"endTime":2003.34,"body":"like a bottle and a half of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1998.99,"endTime":2003.34,"body":"wine, and drinking at that level"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2003.34,"endTime":2007.09,"body":"for an average adult healthy may"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2003.34,"endTime":2007.09,"body":"or will increase your lifetime"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2007.09,"endTime":2010.21,"body":"risk of an alcohol related death"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2007.09,"endTime":2010.21,"body":"by 1%. But I think, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2010.21,"endTime":2013.51,"body":"the idea is that most people who"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2010.21,"endTime":2013.51,"body":"drink at that amount would would"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2013.51,"endTime":2016.36,"body":"sort of take that level of risk."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2013.51,"endTime":2016.36,"body":"But then of course, the more you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2016.36,"endTime":2020.08,"body":"go above, the kind of risk"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2016.36,"endTime":2020.08,"body":"exponentially rises. And now"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2020.08,"endTime":2023.8,"body":"once you're kind of 15, it's a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2020.08,"endTime":2023.8,"body":"week as a man or 35 units a week"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2023.8,"endTime":2027.79,"body":"as a woman, that risk is more"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2023.8,"endTime":2027.79,"body":"like 20 or 30% of lifetime"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2027.79,"endTime":2031.27,"body":"outcome and that your death"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2027.79,"endTime":2031.27,"body":"which most people drink your"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2031.27,"endTime":2035.89,"body":"level would not want to kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2031.27,"endTime":2035.89,"body":"kind of take so I think from a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2035.98,"endTime":2038.98,"body":"physical health point of view,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2035.98,"endTime":2038.98,"body":"less is always more we can't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2038.98,"endTime":2042.07,"body":"really deny the science on that."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2038.98,"endTime":2042.07,"body":"But yeah, you just have to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2042.07,"endTime":2045.19,"body":"factor in you know, I drink"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2042.07,"endTime":2045.19,"body":"because I do enjoy it's a part"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2045.19,"endTime":2048.25,"body":"of wine is a big part of food."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2045.19,"endTime":2048.25,"body":"And you know, in a social"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2048.25,"endTime":2051.34,"body":"situation, being able to have a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2048.25,"endTime":2051.34,"body":"drink does maybe alleviate a bit"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2051.34,"endTime":2055.09,"body":"of mild social anxiety, or just"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2051.34,"endTime":2055.09,"body":"just having a glass of wine at"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2055.09,"endTime":2058.48,"body":"home also does maybe just take"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2055.09,"endTime":2058.48,"body":"away that background buzz of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2058.48,"endTime":2061.54,"body":"anxiety that I still have"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2058.48,"endTime":2061.54,"body":"sometimes hanging there. So it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2061.54,"endTime":2064.42,"body":"is functional in that way. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2061.54,"endTime":2064.42,"body":"yeah, we were kind of we you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2064.42,"endTime":2066.85,"body":"know, like everything in life."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2064.42,"endTime":2066.85,"body":"We're making a decision, aren't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2066.85,"endTime":2068.11,"body":"we pros and cons?"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2069.1,"endTime":2073.27,"body":"Yes, and no, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2069.1,"endTime":2073.27,"body":"habit is habit. And according to"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2073.27,"endTime":2078.76,"body":"those standards, I drink more"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2073.27,"endTime":2078.76,"body":"than that recommended. Right. So"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2078.79,"endTime":2083.74,"body":"but you know, I'm 71 and"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2078.79,"endTime":2083.74,"body":"healthy. And it's like, I'm sure"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2083.74,"endTime":2086.26,"body":"you're aware of the kind of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2083.74,"endTime":2086.26,"body":"stance and peel argument that"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2086.26,"endTime":2088.69,"body":"there are certain aspects to"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2086.26,"endTime":2088.69,"body":"alcohol consumption that make"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2089.11,"endTime":2094.42,"body":"make that are positive that you"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2089.11,"endTime":2094.42,"body":"know, mood enhancing social"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2094.42,"endTime":2100.09,"body":"flexibility and all that stuff."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2094.42,"endTime":2100.09,"body":"And I know how statistics work"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2100.09,"endTime":2103.78,"body":"As a psychologist and so, so"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2100.09,"endTime":2103.78,"body":"these these kinds of guidelines,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2103.78,"endTime":2107.83,"body":"I'm just not sure. I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2103.78,"endTime":2107.83,"body":"think he got to take them with a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2107.83,"endTime":2111.58,"body":"grain of salt. At the top, it"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2107.83,"endTime":2111.58,"body":"was statistics at the population"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2111.58,"endTime":2114.16,"body":"level, that when you apply them"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2111.58,"endTime":2114.16,"body":"to individual level"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2114.28,"endTime":2117.19,"body":"Sure, but I mean,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2114.28,"endTime":2117.19,"body":"you know, you just accept that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2117.19,"endTime":2121.24,"body":"as a dose effect, isn't it, the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2117.19,"endTime":2121.24,"body":"more you consume, the greater"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2121.24,"endTime":2124.06,"body":"the risk, I guess a bit like the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2121.24,"endTime":2124.06,"body":"argument with addiction, we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2124.06,"endTime":2127.75,"body":"can't say it's a disease because"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2124.06,"endTime":2127.75,"body":"there's no categorical cutoff"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2127.75,"endTime":2131.14,"body":"for which you say it becomes"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2127.75,"endTime":2131.14,"body":"harmful, or it becomes"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2131.56,"endTime":2135.73,"body":"addiction, even that, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2131.56,"endTime":2135.73,"body":"that less is more from a purely"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2135.82,"endTime":2139.24,"body":"physical health point of view."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2135.82,"endTime":2139.24,"body":"But we balanced that against all"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2139.24,"endTime":2142.81,"body":"the reasons that the genuine the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2139.24,"endTime":2142.81,"body":"real positive effects that we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2142.84,"endTime":2145.87,"body":"may experience. And you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2142.84,"endTime":2145.87,"body":"even I think just kind of that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2145.87,"endTime":2149.11,"body":"reduced that relaxation and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2145.87,"endTime":2149.11,"body":"those positive effects, it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2149.11,"endTime":2152.83,"body":"just, there's possibility that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2149.11,"endTime":2152.83,"body":"they may actually have some kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2152.83,"endTime":2156.01,"body":"of health benefits, you know, if"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2152.83,"endTime":2156.01,"body":"you feel kind of slowing down,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2156.01,"endTime":2159.43,"body":"or kind of overactive mind which"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2156.01,"endTime":2159.43,"body":"some degree I benefit from,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2159.43,"endTime":2162.19,"body":"maybe when I have a drink, then"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2159.43,"endTime":2162.19,"body":"there's probably some kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2162.19,"endTime":2165.16,"body":"benefit from that from a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2162.19,"endTime":2165.16,"body":"physiological point of view,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2165.16,"endTime":2168.52,"body":"other than just feeling relaxed"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2165.16,"endTime":2168.52,"body":"in that moment, as well. So"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2168.55,"endTime":2173.11,"body":"yeah, I'm by no means trying to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2168.55,"endTime":2173.11,"body":"say that, by no means a kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2173.53,"endTime":2177.04,"body":"advocate of tea totalism. For"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2173.53,"endTime":2177.04,"body":"everyone that, you know, for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2177.04,"endTime":2180.37,"body":"some people that works as a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2177.04,"endTime":2180.37,"body":"recovery route. But alcohol has"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2180.4,"endTime":2183.67,"body":"many benefits, as I guess you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2180.4,"endTime":2183.67,"body":"could argue for other drugs or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2183.67,"endTime":2187.45,"body":"other things that are kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2183.67,"endTime":2187.45,"body":"problematic when when we're"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2187.45,"endTime":2190.57,"body":"maybe for the individual, the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2187.45,"endTime":2190.57,"body":"costs outweigh the benefits."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2190.6,"endTime":2194.59,"body":"Absolutely. Sure. I"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2190.6,"endTime":2194.59,"body":"mean, opiates are kind of very"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2194.59,"endTime":2198.76,"body":"interesting example, opiates are"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2194.59,"endTime":2198.76,"body":"natural antidepressants, we, you"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2198.76,"endTime":2203.02,"body":"know, we create opiates in our"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2198.76,"endTime":2203.02,"body":"own body opioids. And they help"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2203.17,"endTime":2206.38,"body":"to relax us and make us feel"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2203.17,"endTime":2206.38,"body":"more safe and cosy and warm and"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2206.95,"endTime":2210.13,"body":"less panicky and all that stuff."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2206.95,"endTime":2210.13,"body":"That's how they that's why they"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2210.13,"endTime":2215.71,"body":"evolved. And, but, you know, if"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2210.13,"endTime":2215.71,"body":"you go, if you develop an opiate"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2215.71,"endTime":2218.17,"body":"habit, and you need to take"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2215.71,"endTime":2218.17,"body":"stuff every day, and you're"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2218.17,"endTime":2220.63,"body":"getting it and it costs money,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2218.17,"endTime":2220.63,"body":"or you're getting it off the"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2220.63,"endTime":2223.78,"body":"street, or whatever it is,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2220.63,"endTime":2223.78,"body":"there's so much harm involved."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2224.14,"endTime":2229.18,"body":"So there's often really complex"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2224.14,"endTime":2229.18,"body":"pros and cons to some of these"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2229.18,"endTime":2229.69,"body":"things."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2229.93,"endTime":2232.24,"body":"Absolutely. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2229.93,"endTime":2232.24,"body":"I'd be lying if I said that. I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2232.24,"endTime":2235.81,"body":"didn't want to try, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2232.24,"endTime":2235.81,"body":"kind of heroin recreationally,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2235.84,"endTime":2239.77,"body":"you know, but given the kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2235.84,"endTime":2239.77,"body":"context and all those things you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2239.77,"endTime":2242.71,"body":"mentioned, you know, it's just,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2239.77,"endTime":2242.71,"body":"it's something I just wouldn't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2242.92,"endTime":2246.4,"body":"entertain the way things are."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2242.92,"endTime":2246.4,"body":"But yeah, I can often think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2246.43,"endTime":2251.2,"body":"about how alcohol is regulated"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2246.43,"endTime":2251.2,"body":"so differently from from, from"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2251.2,"endTime":2255.46,"body":"heroin, that's, but it's kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2251.2,"endTime":2255.46,"body":"of, you know, again, a very"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2255.49,"endTime":2259.63,"body":"symbolic of the bizarreness of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2255.49,"endTime":2259.63,"body":"our regulatory system around"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2259.63,"endTime":2260.14,"body":"drugs,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2260.47,"endTime":2262.75,"body":"is the cultural"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2260.47,"endTime":2262.75,"body":"political system. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2262.75,"endTime":2267.91,"body":"actually taking opiates at"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2262.75,"endTime":2267.91,"body":"moderate amounts for 30 years,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2268.0,"endTime":2270.91,"body":"is gonna have a lot less harm"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2268.0,"endTime":2270.91,"body":"than taking alcohol for that"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2270.91,"endTime":2273.91,"body":"period of time. I don't know if"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2270.91,"endTime":2273.91,"body":"you knew that. But opiates"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2273.91,"endTime":2277.51,"body":"actually don't cause any harm,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2273.91,"endTime":2277.51,"body":"unless you overdose. They just"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2277.51,"endTime":2280.06,"body":"don't, but they happen to be"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2277.51,"endTime":2280.06,"body":"addictive. I mean, fizzy"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2280.09,"endTime":2282.64,"body":"physiologically addictive, which"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2280.09,"endTime":2282.64,"body":"means that you get withdrawal"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2282.64,"endTime":2285.19,"body":"symptoms, if you drink enough,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2282.64,"endTime":2285.19,"body":"you get withdrawal symptoms of a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2285.19,"endTime":2288.64,"body":"certain sort, you get seizure"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2285.19,"endTime":2288.64,"body":"risk, and so on. But you know,"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2288.67,"endTime":2292.96,"body":"it's, it's somewhat arbitrary."},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2288.67,"endTime":2292.96,"body":"And there's a recent book that"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2292.96,"endTime":2296.29,"body":"came out by Karl hearts, you"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2292.96,"endTime":2296.29,"body":"know, about his book called The"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2296.29,"endTime":2299.62,"body":"attributes for adults. It's"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2296.29,"endTime":2299.62,"body":"like, it's not clear that these"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2299.62,"endTime":2303.4,"body":"things should be regulated by"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2299.62,"endTime":2303.4,"body":"political bodies for, for"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2303.58,"endTime":2306.79,"body":"whatever reasons, political"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2303.58,"endTime":2306.79,"body":"bodies for policies, which has a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2306.79,"endTime":2310.51,"body":"lot to do with all kinds of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2306.79,"endTime":2310.51,"body":"things profit and the rest of"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2310.51,"endTime":2313.45,"body":"it. And so it's, it's, it's a"},{"speaker":"Marc Lewis","startTime":2310.51,"endTime":2313.45,"body":"complicated situation."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2313.54,"endTime":2316.45,"body":"Absolutely. Yeah."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2313.54,"endTime":2316.45,"body":"Omar, thank you so, so much."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2317.32,"endTime":2320.92,"body":"always fascinated. I'm a huge"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2317.32,"endTime":2320.92,"body":"fan of your work. And I think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2320.92,"endTime":2324.16,"body":"it's a really important"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2320.92,"endTime":2324.16,"body":"contribution in terms of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2324.19,"endTime":2328.0,"body":"developing understanding of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2324.19,"endTime":2328.0,"body":"addiction and moving away from"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2328.0,"endTime":2332.23,"body":"maybe some of the more kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2328.0,"endTime":2332.23,"body":"stereotyped or assumed ideas of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2332.23,"endTime":2336.52,"body":"what addiction is or isn't and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2332.23,"endTime":2336.52,"body":"yes, always a pleasure to talk"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2336.52,"endTime":2338.11,"body":"to you. So thanks again, so"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2336.52,"endTime":2338.11,"body":"much."}]}