{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":4.89,"endTime":9.93,"body":"Thanks so much for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":4.89,"endTime":9.93,"body":"joining me, John, it's really"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":9.93,"endTime":17.61,"body":"great to have you on the show."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":9.93,"endTime":17.61,"body":"Because you know, you've been"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":20.61,"endTime":50.49,"body":"one of a number of MPs who's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":20.61,"endTime":50.49,"body":"spoken openly about their"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":50.49,"endTime":54.27,"body":"experience of growing up with a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":50.49,"endTime":54.27,"body":"parent with alcohol dependence"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":54.27,"endTime":57.21,"body":"or an alcohol problem. And yeah,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":54.27,"endTime":57.21,"body":"I think that's really powerful"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":57.21,"endTime":60.48,"body":"story to share. And you've done"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":57.21,"endTime":60.48,"body":"that really well and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":60.48,"endTime":63.63,"body":"articulately in a number of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":60.48,"endTime":63.63,"body":"different spaces. But could you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":63.63,"endTime":66.24,"body":"tell me a bit about that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":63.63,"endTime":66.24,"body":"experience and how you came to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":66.24,"endTime":66.66,"body":"share it"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":66.66,"endTime":70.53,"body":"publicly, please?"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":66.66,"endTime":70.53,"body":"Yeah, of course. So, alcohol has"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":70.53,"endTime":77.22,"body":"played such a huge parts of my"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":70.53,"endTime":77.22,"body":"life I've been, I think, I can"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":77.22,"endTime":83.34,"body":"never remember not being aware"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":77.22,"endTime":83.34,"body":"of alcohol. I can never remember"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":83.37,"endTime":88.29,"body":"alcohol, not being a part of the"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":83.37,"endTime":88.29,"body":"backdrop to my childhood."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":89.13,"endTime":93.15,"body":"Because my dad, as I've said,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":89.13,"endTime":93.15,"body":"many times now had a drink"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":93.15,"endTime":99.03,"body":"problem. And I was aware going"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":93.15,"endTime":99.03,"body":"to a hospital when my dad was in"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":99.03,"endTime":103.44,"body":"hospital when I was about five"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":99.03,"endTime":103.44,"body":"or six. At the time, I didn't"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":103.44,"endTime":105.9,"body":"quite understand why he was in"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":103.44,"endTime":105.9,"body":"hospital. But I found out when I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":105.9,"endTime":108.93,"body":"was a teenager, it was because"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":105.9,"endTime":108.93,"body":"of his drinking. And then days,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":108.93,"endTime":113.4,"body":"he was drinking a bottle of"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":108.93,"endTime":113.4,"body":"Canadian whiskey at a Canadian"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":113.4,"endTime":116.94,"body":"Club whisky he was his was his"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":113.4,"endTime":116.94,"body":"favourites. And the doctor said"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":116.94,"endTime":119.4,"body":"to him, Well, you've got to stop"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":116.94,"endTime":119.4,"body":"doing this, you're gonna kill"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":119.4,"endTime":122.82,"body":"yourself. So we moved from"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":119.4,"endTime":122.82,"body":"Canadian called Whiskey to"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":122.82,"endTime":125.79,"body":"bottles of wine instead of"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":122.82,"endTime":125.79,"body":"bottles of white wine. And I'm"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":125.79,"endTime":127.98,"body":"throughout my that time growing"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":125.79,"endTime":127.98,"body":"up with him. He was I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":127.98,"endTime":130.71,"body":"remembered, I mean, they were"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":127.98,"endTime":130.71,"body":"divorced. I mean, drink, wrecks"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":130.71,"endTime":134.58,"body":"the marriage as it wrecks a lot"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":130.71,"endTime":134.58,"body":"of marriages. So my mum and dad"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":134.58,"endTime":137.34,"body":"were divorced. But the times I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":134.58,"endTime":137.34,"body":"was with my dad, he would fill"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":137.34,"endTime":140.07,"body":"up the fridge with massive"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":137.34,"endTime":140.07,"body":"bottles of white wine from the"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":140.07,"endTime":142.77,"body":"corner shop from the off"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":140.07,"endTime":142.77,"body":"licence, cheap white wine, these"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":142.77,"endTime":148.47,"body":"big bottles of German wine, and"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":142.77,"endTime":148.47,"body":"weekends with my dad, when I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":148.47,"endTime":153.57,"body":"went to stay with him as a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":148.47,"endTime":153.57,"body":"child. You know, he was, he was"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":153.57,"endTime":158.13,"body":"full of drink a lot of the time."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":153.57,"endTime":158.13,"body":"And it was always there. And you"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":158.13,"endTime":162.21,"body":"know, you get through it,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":158.13,"endTime":162.21,"body":"because children can be more"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":162.21,"endTime":165.93,"body":"resilient than perhaps you think"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":162.21,"endTime":165.93,"body":"I'm a father. Now, I think my"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":166.02,"endTime":168.78,"body":"way obviously, and so determined"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":166.02,"endTime":168.78,"body":"to permanently protect my"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":168.78,"endTime":171.3,"body":"children. I obviously think of"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":168.78,"endTime":171.3,"body":"them as if materials are"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":171.3,"endTime":173.91,"body":"fragile, but I think sometimes"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":171.3,"endTime":173.91,"body":"you forget how resilient"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":173.91,"endTime":175.89,"body":"children can actually be. And"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":173.91,"endTime":175.89,"body":"you sort of grow up quite"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":175.89,"endTime":179.22,"body":"quickly. In those circumstances,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":175.89,"endTime":179.22,"body":"you end up looking after your"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":179.22,"endTime":183.39,"body":"dad. But I always remember that"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":179.22,"endTime":183.39,"body":"when I was older now, when I was"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":183.39,"endTime":188.1,"body":"about 30, or so, my dad had left"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":183.39,"endTime":188.1,"body":"the country went off to live on"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":188.1,"endTime":190.8,"body":"his own in Thailand, which I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":188.1,"endTime":190.8,"body":"thought was bananas in itself."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":190.8,"endTime":193.53,"body":"But he just did it just like"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":190.8,"endTime":193.53,"body":"that just went, sold everything"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":193.53,"endTime":199.29,"body":"he had literally went and lived"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":193.53,"endTime":199.29,"body":"on virtually on a beach. Two"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":199.29,"endTime":202.8,"body":"years. Two years later, I got"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":199.29,"endTime":202.8,"body":"the phone call from at 6am"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":203.4,"endTime":208.11,"body":"telling me, he was dead. And he"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":203.4,"endTime":208.11,"body":"was only 60. And he just been"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":208.11,"endTime":211.65,"body":"drinking every day in Thailand"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":208.11,"endTime":211.65,"body":"for the last for these last two"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":211.65,"endTime":216.57,"body":"years of his life. And I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":211.65,"endTime":216.57,"body":"remember the woman on the phone"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":218.25,"endTime":221.88,"body":"gave me the news. And she wasn't"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":218.25,"endTime":221.88,"body":"trying to be insensitive. So"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":221.88,"endTime":225.15,"body":"don't hold this against her. I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":221.88,"endTime":225.15,"body":"think she was just trying to be"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":225.15,"endTime":231.18,"body":"sort of supportive. But anyway,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":225.15,"endTime":231.18,"body":"she did say to me, you didn't"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":231.18,"endTime":237.78,"body":"know your dad was an alcoholic."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":231.18,"endTime":237.78,"body":"And that was like a punch in the"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":237.78,"endTime":243.12,"body":"stomach that was like, punch"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":237.78,"endTime":243.12,"body":"which knocked me across the"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":243.12,"endTime":249.39,"body":"room. Not because it came as a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":243.12,"endTime":249.39,"body":"surprise. Of course it didn't."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":250.71,"endTime":257.64,"body":"But to hear somebody say it. I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":250.71,"endTime":257.64,"body":"think as I say, it was like a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":257.64,"endTime":261.15,"body":"punch across the room or like a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":257.64,"endTime":261.15,"body":"sort of cartoon character. When"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":261.15,"endTime":263.76,"body":"you have a big you know, a big"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":261.15,"endTime":263.76,"body":"weight dropped on their head or"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":263.76,"endTime":266.46,"body":"a piano do you see in a sort of"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":263.76,"endTime":266.46,"body":"Roadrunner cartoon or something?"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":267.21,"endTime":270.75,"body":"To hear someone articulate that"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":267.21,"endTime":270.75,"body":"out loud, because of course, I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":270.75,"endTime":273.24,"body":"always knew it and you always"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":270.75,"endTime":273.24,"body":"knew that my heart and your"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":273.24,"endTime":278.07,"body":"point about language and"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":273.24,"endTime":278.07,"body":"research I think is so important"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":278.07,"endTime":282.78,"body":"because you obviously focus on"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":278.07,"endTime":282.78,"body":"the stigma associated with that"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":282.78,"endTime":285.54,"body":"word, quite rightly. But I think"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":282.78,"endTime":285.54,"body":"there's something else about"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":285.54,"endTime":288.9,"body":"that word and in as much as"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":285.54,"endTime":288.9,"body":"people a lot of people who have"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":288.9,"endTime":293.67,"body":"a drink problem. Do not identify"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":288.9,"endTime":293.67,"body":"with that word, will not"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":293.67,"endTime":296.52,"body":"identify with that word because"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":293.67,"endTime":296.52,"body":"that for them conjures up"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":296.55,"endTime":300.03,"body":"something else in their minds"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":296.55,"endTime":300.03,"body":"that perhaps conjures up some"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":300.03,"endTime":302.58,"body":"Billy on the street corner"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":300.03,"endTime":302.58,"body":"drinking out of a brown paper"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":302.58,"endTime":306.3,"body":"bag or something, I remember as"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":302.58,"endTime":306.3,"body":"a teenager saying to my dad,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":306.87,"endTime":308.79,"body":"that I think you're an"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":306.87,"endTime":308.79,"body":"alcoholic. And he would say, No,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":308.79,"endTime":312.3,"body":"I'm not. I'm not because I can"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":308.79,"endTime":312.3,"body":"hold down a job. Alcoholics"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":312.3,"endTime":315.75,"body":"can't go to work. And he said,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":312.3,"endTime":315.75,"body":"when I'm at work, I don't drink."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":315.75,"endTime":319.14,"body":"And he was right, actually, he"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":315.75,"endTime":319.14,"body":"had a very complex relationship"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":319.14,"endTime":321.75,"body":"with drink, because when he the"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":319.14,"endTime":321.75,"body":"days that you went to work, you"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":321.75,"endTime":324.87,"body":"didn't actually drink. The"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":321.75,"endTime":324.87,"body":"problem was the days when he"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":324.87,"endTime":329.73,"body":"wasn't drinking constantly. And"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":324.87,"endTime":329.73,"body":"of course, when work was taken"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":329.73,"endTime":334.35,"body":"away, or he left work at 50 and"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":329.73,"endTime":334.35,"body":"a half."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":335.61,"endTime":338.46,"body":"He was just drinking every"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":335.61,"endTime":338.46,"body":"single day. But because but"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":338.46,"endTime":340.62,"body":"there was something about that"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":338.46,"endTime":340.62,"body":"word, which meant my dad who"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":340.62,"endTime":345.75,"body":"clearly quite self evidently had"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":340.62,"endTime":345.75,"body":"a serious drinking problem. just"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":345.75,"endTime":348.93,"body":"refuse to accept that he was an"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":345.75,"endTime":348.93,"body":"alcoholic, which in turn was a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":348.93,"endTime":351.24,"body":"refuse to accept that you need"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":348.93,"endTime":351.24,"body":"any help because of that word."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":351.24,"endTime":356.67,"body":"So I think you're so right, to"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":351.24,"endTime":356.67,"body":"focus on that word, and talk"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":356.67,"endTime":359.28,"body":"about drinking problem or"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":356.67,"endTime":359.28,"body":"alcohol problems, alcohol"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":359.28,"endTime":364.71,"body":"dependency, as well, because I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":359.28,"endTime":364.71,"body":"think a lot of people who quite"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":364.77,"endTime":370.98,"body":"clearly have problems refuse to"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":364.77,"endTime":370.98,"body":"accept that word, and are doing"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":370.98,"endTime":375.96,"body":"themselves and their families."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":370.98,"endTime":375.96,"body":"immense damage as a consequence."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":377.37,"endTime":378.66,"body":"That's yeah, well,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":378.66,"endTime":380.88,"body":"Thanks again for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":378.66,"endTime":380.88,"body":"for sharing that. It's such a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":380.97,"endTime":385.23,"body":"powerful story. And I think it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":380.97,"endTime":385.23,"body":"really complicated in the sense"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":385.23,"endTime":388.86,"body":"that, yeah, as as you know, I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":385.23,"endTime":388.86,"body":"generally advocate for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":388.89,"endTime":393.81,"body":"alternative use of language to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":388.89,"endTime":393.81,"body":"describe alcohol problems,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":393.84,"endTime":397.62,"body":"because, yeah, the stigma"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":393.84,"endTime":397.62,"body":"associated or embedded with that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":397.62,"endTime":401.19,"body":"term, or the idea, or the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":397.62,"endTime":401.19,"body":"stereotype of alcoholism is so"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":401.19,"endTime":405.51,"body":"heavy that it does prevent many"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":401.19,"endTime":405.51,"body":"people from perhaps Yeah,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":405.54,"endTime":408.63,"body":"recognising their drinking"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":405.54,"endTime":408.63,"body":"problem, because, you know, to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":408.63,"endTime":413.52,"body":"adopt that label is to really"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":408.63,"endTime":413.52,"body":"become a target for stigma, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":413.52,"endTime":416.91,"body":"know, people it's so embedded"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":413.52,"endTime":416.91,"body":"within negative stereotypes as"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":416.91,"endTime":420.48,"body":"you describe of, you know, rock"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":416.91,"endTime":420.48,"body":"bottom and not being able to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":420.48,"endTime":424.44,"body":"function and so on. So it's self"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":420.48,"endTime":424.44,"body":"protective in a way to not adopt"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":424.44,"endTime":427.56,"body":"that label. But then obviously,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":424.44,"endTime":427.56,"body":"there's the complicated side of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":427.62,"endTime":430.83,"body":"Alcoholics Anonymous, because so"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":427.62,"endTime":430.83,"body":"many people do recover through"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":430.83,"endTime":435.24,"body":"that route, where they take on"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":430.83,"endTime":435.24,"body":"that label and use that label"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":435.24,"endTime":438.69,"body":"almost as a way of not just"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":435.24,"endTime":438.69,"body":"making sense of their alcohol"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":438.69,"endTime":442.86,"body":"problem and joining community"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":438.69,"endTime":442.86,"body":"that can help them recover but"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":442.86,"endTime":446.64,"body":"also as a kind of way of just"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":442.86,"endTime":446.64,"body":"saying I'm owning this problem"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":446.64,"endTime":449.85,"body":"and I'm gonna face it head on."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":446.64,"endTime":449.85,"body":"So this is really complicated"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":449.85,"endTime":452.94,"body":"and alcohol problems are so"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":449.85,"endTime":452.94,"body":"complex and unique and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":452.94,"endTime":455.82,"body":"individual that there's there's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":452.94,"endTime":455.82,"body":"never going to be a one size"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":455.82,"endTime":458.73,"body":"fits all. But yeah, I think, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":455.82,"endTime":458.73,"body":"know, having having people like"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":458.73,"endTime":462.06,"body":"you talk about your experience,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":458.73,"endTime":462.06,"body":"and and us to talk about the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":462.06,"endTime":465.63,"body":"language and the labels and the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":462.06,"endTime":465.63,"body":"ideas and what they mean is our"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":465.63,"endTime":469.59,"body":"kind of way of unpicking that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":465.63,"endTime":469.59,"body":"and trying to work through it. I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":469.59,"endTime":472.08,"body":"mean, sometimes some people will"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":469.59,"endTime":472.08,"body":"say, we just need to de"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":472.08,"endTime":476.61,"body":"stigmatise the term alcoholism,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":472.08,"endTime":476.61,"body":"or the label alcoholic and you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":476.61,"endTime":480.75,"body":"know, thought a lot about that."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":476.61,"endTime":480.75,"body":"My view is the evidence is, once"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":480.75,"endTime":483.96,"body":"that term has is so heavily"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":480.75,"endTime":483.96,"body":"sticky, stigma embedded, it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":483.96,"endTime":487.83,"body":"very hard to roll back on that."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":483.96,"endTime":487.83,"body":"But at the same time, I think,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":487.92,"endTime":491.31,"body":"yeah, we just need lots of the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":487.92,"endTime":491.31,"body":"more conversations we can have,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":491.31,"endTime":495.75,"body":"the better, including ones that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":491.31,"endTime":495.75,"body":"look at and speak honestly about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":495.78,"endTime":499.29,"body":"the pros and cons of different"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":495.78,"endTime":499.29,"body":"ideas or concepts or language in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":499.29,"endTime":500.52,"body":"different contexts."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":500.0,"endTime":503.15,"body":"I mean, that's"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":500.0,"endTime":503.15,"body":"absolutely right. And of course,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":503.15,"endTime":506.48,"body":"as you know, I do a lot of"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":503.15,"endTime":506.48,"body":"advocacy work for and indeed,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":506.66,"endTime":510.74,"body":"have done some fundraising"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":506.66,"endTime":510.74,"body":"London Marathon as for Nicola"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":510.77,"endTime":514.46,"body":"National Association for"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":510.77,"endTime":514.46,"body":"children of alcoholics who do"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":514.46,"endTime":517.82,"body":"embrace that word, and you will?"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":514.46,"endTime":517.82,"body":"I honestly don't know if this is"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":517.82,"endTime":522.17,"body":"because I do work in this space"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":517.82,"endTime":522.17,"body":"now, or if it is, or if there"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":522.17,"endTime":524.57,"body":"has been a degree of change in"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":522.17,"endTime":524.57,"body":"the last few years, but I do"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":524.57,"endTime":528.92,"body":"notice more people saying I am a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":524.57,"endTime":528.92,"body":"COA. I'm a child of an alcoholic"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":528.95,"endTime":533.9,"body":"and self identifying in that"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":528.95,"endTime":533.9,"body":"way. I think I think it's not"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":533.9,"endTime":537.98,"body":"for me to sort of police the way"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":533.9,"endTime":537.98,"body":"people want to describe"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":537.98,"endTime":542.33,"body":"themselves. I think enough,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":537.98,"endTime":542.33,"body":"there are people who are"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":542.33,"endTime":545.63,"body":"prepared to speak out and"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":542.33,"endTime":545.63,"body":"express their their own"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":545.63,"endTime":548.96,"body":"testimony, their own lived"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":545.63,"endTime":548.96,"body":"experience to help others. I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":548.96,"endTime":553.82,"body":"think that is so precious, that"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":548.96,"endTime":553.82,"body":"is so important. But I do know"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":553.82,"endTime":559.22,"body":"that that term, I think was a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":553.82,"endTime":559.22,"body":"barrier in my own relationship"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":559.22,"endTime":562.55,"body":"with my dad, and as much as he"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":559.22,"endTime":562.55,"body":"refused to accept identify"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":562.55,"endTime":566.75,"body":"himself with that term. And who"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":562.55,"endTime":566.75,"body":"knows, maybe we could have made"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":566.75,"endTime":572.06,"body":"some progress. If we if we, if"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":566.75,"endTime":572.06,"body":"we could have explained, you"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":572.06,"endTime":575.57,"body":"know, explained it to him in"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":572.06,"endTime":575.57,"body":"different ways. I don't know. On"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":575.57,"endTime":579.56,"body":"the other hand, you know, he was"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":575.57,"endTime":579.56,"body":"also a very much a kind of... I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":579.56,"endTime":584.87,"body":"was very lucky in as much as my"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":579.56,"endTime":584.87,"body":"dad's drinking, never turned"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":584.87,"endTime":590.45,"body":"into violence, or sexual"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":584.87,"endTime":590.45,"body":"violence, or anything like that."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":590.57,"endTime":596.0,"body":"It was, you know, for me as a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":590.57,"endTime":596.0,"body":"child it was just there and it's"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":596.0,"endTime":599.42,"body":"the constant pneus of in what,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":596.0,"endTime":599.42,"body":"in many ways is the tediousness"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":599.42,"endTime":602.81,"body":"of it. See, my dad was my dad"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":599.42,"endTime":602.81,"body":"was a great personality he was"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":602.81,"endTime":606.86,"body":"good fun and, you know, and for"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":602.81,"endTime":606.86,"body":"all of his sort of friends and"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":606.86,"endTime":611.33,"body":"that he was great companies,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":606.86,"endTime":611.33,"body":"great sense of salary, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":611.96,"endTime":614.36,"body":"you know, having a drink coming"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":611.96,"endTime":614.36,"body":"up and they're having a great"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":614.36,"endTime":617.96,"body":"laugh. Yeah, fantastic. But then"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":614.36,"endTime":617.96,"body":"I was always the one who had to"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":617.96,"endTime":621.44,"body":"deal with it at the end. And"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":617.96,"endTime":621.44,"body":"it's can be pretty, as I say,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":621.44,"endTime":625.19,"body":"tedious, particularly when"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":621.44,"endTime":625.19,"body":"you're a teenager, having to put"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":625.19,"endTime":632.03,"body":"up with this constantly. But as"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":625.19,"endTime":632.03,"body":"I say, I was fortunate in as"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":632.03,"endTime":635.21,"body":"much as I didn't experience any"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":632.03,"endTime":635.21,"body":"violence or anything like that,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":635.21,"endTime":639.23,"body":"which I know a lot of people"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":635.21,"endTime":639.23,"body":"face in the circumstances, and"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":639.23,"endTime":641.99,"body":"is, I think, is a real problem,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":639.23,"endTime":641.99,"body":"or has been a problem in recent"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":641.99,"endTime":646.16,"body":"times. Because look, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":641.99,"endTime":646.16,"body":"think we needed to lock down the"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":646.16,"endTime":649.76,"body":"country for COVID. But we know"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":646.16,"endTime":649.76,"body":"that when people are in enclosed"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":649.76,"endTime":654.11,"body":"spaces, and there is alcohol,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":649.76,"endTime":654.11,"body":"they can't leave the house."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":654.5,"endTime":663.02,"body":"Sadly, tragically, children and"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":654.5,"endTime":663.02,"body":"partners would have been exposed"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":663.08,"endTime":667.55,"body":"to some of the some of the very"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":663.08,"endTime":667.55,"body":"darkest elements of alcohol"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":667.55,"endTime":670.04,"body":"abuse subtly. And I think we"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":667.55,"endTime":670.04,"body":"have a problem, we have a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":670.04,"endTime":674.24,"body":"problem in as much as you know,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":670.04,"endTime":674.24,"body":"not I don't want to be party"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":674.24,"endTime":676.76,"body":"political on your on your"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":674.24,"endTime":676.76,"body":"podcast, but we do know, don't"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":676.76,"endTime":680.96,"body":"we, the specialist services for"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":676.76,"endTime":680.96,"body":"alcohol specialty services, for"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":680.96,"endTime":684.14,"body":"addiction, especially service"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":680.96,"endTime":684.14,"body":"for domestic abuse, and so on."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":684.8,"endTime":688.79,"body":"They've been so caught back in"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":684.8,"endTime":688.79,"body":"these last, in these last in"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":688.79,"endTime":693.11,"body":"these recent years, they've been"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":688.79,"endTime":693.11,"body":"so hacked away, that we've taken"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":693.11,"endTime":696.17,"body":"away so much protection and"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":693.11,"endTime":696.17,"body":"help, which some of the most"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":696.17,"endTime":700.1,"body":"vulnerable would be able to turn"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":696.17,"endTime":700.1,"body":"to. And that is a real worry,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":700.1,"endTime":701.18,"body":"for me as a politician."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":701.66,"endTime":705.35,"body":"I couldn't agree"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":701.66,"endTime":705.35,"body":"more and, you know, someone"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":705.35,"endTime":709.64,"body":"who's worked in public health"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":705.35,"endTime":709.64,"body":"and commissioning of alcohol"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":709.64,"endTime":712.64,"body":"services, for a while, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":709.64,"endTime":712.64,"body":"it's obviously been really"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":712.64,"endTime":716.84,"body":"frustrating. You know, we had"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":712.64,"endTime":716.84,"body":"some great local alcohol"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":716.84,"endTime":721.49,"body":"services maybe 10 or 15 years"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":716.84,"endTime":721.49,"body":"ago, that just weren't able to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":721.49,"endTime":725.99,"body":"survive those cuts. And, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":721.49,"endTime":725.99,"body":"know, we've got now a sector of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":726.02,"endTime":730.07,"body":"a few big providers now, her"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":726.02,"endTime":730.07,"body":"drug and alcohol services and,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":731.18,"endTime":734.15,"body":"you know, doing some good work,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":731.18,"endTime":734.15,"body":"but but it's still, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":734.15,"endTime":737.69,"body":"product of lots of cuts,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":734.15,"endTime":737.69,"body":"mandates, and really good local"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":737.69,"endTime":741.05,"body":"services have been lost and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":737.69,"endTime":741.05,"body":"alcohol specialist services as"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":741.05,"endTime":743.75,"body":"well, which basically don't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":741.05,"endTime":743.75,"body":"exist anymore. So yeah, I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":743.75,"endTime":746.21,"body":"couldn't agree more with you on"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":743.75,"endTime":746.21,"body":"that point. And then there's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":746.21,"endTime":750.53,"body":"also the obvious policy levers"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":746.21,"endTime":750.53,"body":"that are available that, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":750.53,"endTime":753.47,"body":"know, aren't really being"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":750.53,"endTime":753.47,"body":"utilised. Obviously, Scotland"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":753.47,"endTime":757.19,"body":"has minimum price. And, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":753.47,"endTime":757.19,"body":"know, the debate continues on"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":757.19,"endTime":761.12,"body":"about the evidence. And it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":757.19,"endTime":761.12,"body":"obviously, a fairly low price"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":761.12,"endTime":764.63,"body":"threshold of 50. Pence, a unit"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":761.12,"endTime":764.63,"body":"that was delayed for a long time"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":764.63,"endTime":767.93,"body":"by kind of legal challenges by"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":764.63,"endTime":767.93,"body":"sections of the alcohol"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":767.93,"endTime":771.32,"body":"industry, but we do know that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":767.93,"endTime":771.32,"body":"the pricing availability and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":771.32,"endTime":775.16,"body":"advertising influence"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":771.32,"endTime":775.16,"body":"consumption, and, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":775.19,"endTime":778.7,"body":"indeed, what the level of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":775.19,"endTime":778.7,"body":"exposure children, young people"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":778.7,"endTime":782.51,"body":"and partners, etc, have. So I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":778.7,"endTime":782.51,"body":"expect to agree as well, that we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":782.51,"endTime":785.21,"body":"need to do better in policy"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":782.51,"endTime":785.21,"body":"terms as well. But of course,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":785.24,"endTime":788.3,"body":"you know, it's about kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":785.24,"endTime":788.3,"body":"winning over the public as much"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":788.3,"endTime":791.78,"body":"as it is persuading certain MPs,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":788.3,"endTime":791.78,"body":"I guess."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":791.9,"endTime":794.148,"body":"I mean,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":791.9,"endTime":794.148,"body":"absolutely. So, you know, to"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":794.211,"endTime":798.021,"body":"answer your initial question,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":794.211,"endTime":798.021,"body":"actually, when Why did I choose"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":798.083,"endTime":801.519,"body":"to speak out? Well, I was"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":798.083,"endTime":801.519,"body":"appointed as to be the shadow"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":801.581,"endTime":805.391,"body":"Secretary of State for Health."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":801.581,"endTime":805.391,"body":"And I thought to myself, Well,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":805.454,"endTime":809.389,"body":"look, shadow health secretaries,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":805.454,"endTime":809.389,"body":"you know, quite rightly, go on"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":809.451,"endTime":813.074,"body":"the news every night to complain"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":809.451,"endTime":813.074,"body":"about any targets and the"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":813.136,"endTime":816.509,"body":"waiting lists and ambulance"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":813.136,"endTime":816.509,"body":"delays. And quite rightly,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":816.572,"endTime":820.382,"body":"because all of them, everything"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":816.572,"endTime":820.382,"body":"is eat well, it was terrible,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":820.444,"endTime":823.505,"body":"then it's absolutely"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":820.444,"endTime":823.505,"body":"catastrophic now. But it was"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":823.567,"endTime":826.94,"body":"terrible then in 2016. But I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":823.567,"endTime":826.94,"body":"thought, also, I've got a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":827.003,"endTime":830.563,"body":"platform now to speak out on"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":827.003,"endTime":830.563,"body":"these issues, which I really"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":830.625,"endTime":834.311,"body":"care about. And I hadn't really"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":830.625,"endTime":834.311,"body":"spoken out properly before,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":834.373,"endTime":838.058,"body":"because I wanted to make a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":834.373,"endTime":838.058,"body":"bigger argument about the health"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":838.121,"endTime":841.681,"body":"of the nation. And I want to"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":838.121,"endTime":841.681,"body":"make a bigger argument about"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":841.744,"endTime":845.179,"body":"people who are vulnerable people"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":841.744,"endTime":845.179,"body":"who are left behind or"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":845.241,"endTime":848.989,"body":"neglected. And I do think we"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":845.241,"endTime":848.989,"body":"have an addiction crisis in the"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":849.051,"endTime":852.799,"body":"country. Through my personal"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":849.051,"endTime":852.799,"body":"experience, I obviously focused"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":852.862,"endTime":856.547,"body":"on alcohol, but this substance"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":852.862,"endTime":856.547,"body":"misuse, gambling, as well. I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":856.609,"endTime":860.045,"body":"wanted to talk about these"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":856.609,"endTime":860.045,"body":"issues. I want to talk about"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":860.107,"endTime":864.042,"body":"some of the failures in public"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":860.107,"endTime":864.042,"body":"policy in as much as you go, you"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":864.105,"endTime":867.727,"body":"know, some some addiction"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":864.105,"endTime":867.727,"body":"issues, or consequence of mental"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":867.79,"endTime":871.413,"body":"health problems. But if you go"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":867.79,"endTime":871.413,"body":"for mental health provider,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":871.475,"endTime":875.16,"body":"they'll ask you to get clean,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":871.475,"endTime":875.16,"body":"resolve your addiction issues"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":875.223,"endTime":879.158,"body":"before they can properly treat"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":875.223,"endTime":879.158,"body":"you in turn, you'll go to an art"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":879.22,"endTime":883.03,"body":"and addiction service will say,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":879.22,"endTime":883.03,"body":"Well, this is a mental health"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":883.093,"endTime":886.84,"body":"problem. You need to go to a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":883.093,"endTime":886.84,"body":"mental health provider. You get"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":886.903,"endTime":890.9,"body":"bounced around the system quite"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":886.903,"endTime":890.9,"body":"a lot. But I also wanted to make"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":890.963,"endTime":894.586,"body":"that bigger argument about"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":890.963,"endTime":894.586,"body":"public health. about what we do"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":894.648,"endTime":898.583,"body":"as a society to improve health"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":894.648,"endTime":898.583,"body":"outcomes, because, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":898.646,"endTime":902.393,"body":"NHS, you know, if you like,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":898.646,"endTime":902.393,"body":"should, in theory fix you at the"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":902.456,"endTime":906.391,"body":"end or fix you when you're ill,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":902.456,"endTime":906.391,"body":"fix you when you're broken. But"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":906.453,"endTime":910.326,"body":"we want, we don't want people to"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":906.453,"endTime":910.326,"body":"be broken in the first place."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":910.388,"endTime":914.011,"body":"It's that famous sort of Desmond"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":910.388,"endTime":914.011,"body":"Tutu, quote, you can keep"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":914.074,"endTime":918.071,"body":"pulling people out of the river."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":914.074,"endTime":918.071,"body":"But eventually you've got to go"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":918.134,"endTime":921.631,"body":"upstream and find out why"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":918.134,"endTime":921.631,"body":"they're falling into the river"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":921.694,"endTime":925.629,"body":"in the first place. And you've"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":921.694,"endTime":925.629,"body":"got to do things your government"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":925.691,"endTime":929.501,"body":"can make it intervene, change"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":925.691,"endTime":929.501,"body":"things to make big changes, big"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":929.564,"endTime":933.312,"body":"changes to attitudes. But when I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":929.564,"endTime":933.312,"body":"first started in my working"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":933.374,"endTime":937.309,"body":"career, 20 years ago, the year"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":933.374,"endTime":937.309,"body":"2000, I left university and went"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":937.372,"endTime":941.119,"body":"to work in office jobs in the"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":937.372,"endTime":941.119,"body":"Labour Party, as a researcher,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":941.182,"endTime":944.992,"body":"always been office based policy"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":941.182,"endTime":944.992,"body":"research jobs, but it was not"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":945.054,"endTime":948.74,"body":"unusual in the year 2000, for"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":945.054,"endTime":948.74,"body":"people to be smoking at their"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":948.802,"endTime":952.737,"body":"desk in an office. I mean, you"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":948.802,"endTime":952.737,"body":"say that to people now. And they"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":952.799,"endTime":956.61,"body":"look at you as if you've been"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":952.799,"endTime":956.61,"body":"honest. It would not be unusual"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":956.672,"endTime":960.482,"body":"to go perhaps to a conference."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":956.672,"endTime":960.482,"body":"And for that to be ashtrays on"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":960.545,"endTime":964.48,"body":"the tables in 20 years ago, the"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":960.545,"endTime":964.48,"body":"point I'm making if you have to"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":964.542,"endTime":968.415,"body":"go to a conference now, and I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":964.542,"endTime":968.415,"body":"don't smoke, but if I did smoke,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":968.477,"endTime":972.162,"body":"can you imagine how the gas"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":968.477,"endTime":972.162,"body":"people would be if I took out a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":972.225,"endTime":976.222,"body":"cigarette outside smoking it at"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":972.225,"endTime":976.222,"body":"a conference platform, the point"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":976.285,"endTime":980.22,"body":"is 20 years old until two years"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":976.285,"endTime":980.22,"body":"ago, that was part of the norm."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":980.282,"endTime":984.03,"body":"So you can change attitudes"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":980.282,"endTime":984.03,"body":"government can intervene. And of"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":984.093,"endTime":987.903,"body":"course, the smoking ban was a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":984.093,"endTime":987.903,"body":"big intervention the government"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":987.965,"endTime":991.338,"body":"made which helped change"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":987.965,"endTime":991.338,"body":"attitudes. So governments can"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":991.401,"endTime":994.898,"body":"intervene in can change"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":991.401,"endTime":994.898,"body":"attitudes and change behaviours,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":994.961,"endTime":998.396,"body":"which is why I'm very interested"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":994.961,"endTime":998.396,"body":"in the research on the"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":998.459,"endTime":1002.331,"body":"experiments around minimum unit"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":998.459,"endTime":1002.331,"body":"pricing and so on. All of this"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1002.394,"endTime":1005.08,"body":"takes governments to step up and"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1002.394,"endTime":1005.08,"body":"intervene."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1005.38,"endTime":1008.68,"body":"Yeah, I think I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1005.38,"endTime":1008.68,"body":"saw a statistic some years ago"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1008.68,"endTime":1012.94,"body":"about how just 4% of, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1008.68,"endTime":1012.94,"body":"health care spending was on"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1012.97,"endTime":1015.76,"body":"prevention out of the whole"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1012.97,"endTime":1015.76,"body":"budget. And yeah, there's so"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1015.76,"endTime":1020.23,"body":"much more we could be doing, as"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1015.76,"endTime":1020.23,"body":"you say, upstream. And yeah, I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1020.23,"endTime":1023.56,"body":"guess it's complicated, because,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1020.23,"endTime":1023.56,"body":"of course, you know, it's policy"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1023.56,"endTime":1026.11,"body":"levers as well. But then, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1023.56,"endTime":1026.11,"body":"know, we also need to look more"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1026.11,"endTime":1029.56,"body":"broadly in society. And, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1026.11,"endTime":1029.56,"body":"know, I kind of feel like, yeah,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1029.56,"endTime":1032.44,"body":"so much of this kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1029.56,"endTime":1032.44,"body":"addiction crisis, as you say, is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1032.44,"endTime":1036.31,"body":"driven by this kind of rising"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1032.44,"endTime":1036.31,"body":"tide of mental health issues in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1036.31,"endTime":1040.93,"body":"young people around uncertainty"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1036.31,"endTime":1040.93,"body":"and climate change and economic"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1040.93,"endTime":1043.81,"body":"insecurity. So I think you said,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1040.93,"endTime":1043.81,"body":"you know, he didn't want to be"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1043.81,"endTime":1046.57,"body":"party political, but I think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1043.81,"endTime":1046.57,"body":"it's almost impossible not to,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1046.57,"endTime":1048.91,"body":"you know, we can't alcohol is a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1046.57,"endTime":1048.91,"body":"really important issue that we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1048.91,"endTime":1051.76,"body":"need to look at, and focus in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1048.91,"endTime":1051.76,"body":"and try and understand in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1051.76,"endTime":1054.1,"body":"detail, but without"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1051.76,"endTime":1054.1,"body":"disconnecting it from the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1054.16,"endTime":1058.42,"body":"broader context and environment"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1054.16,"endTime":1058.42,"body":"that drives and shapes how"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1058.42,"endTime":1062.83,"body":"people use and develop problems"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1058.42,"endTime":1062.83,"body":"with alcohol as coping responses"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1062.83,"endTime":1068.26,"body":"or because of cultural norms and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1062.83,"endTime":1068.26,"body":"the language etc. So, yeah, just"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1068.29,"endTime":1071.35,"body":"kind of going back to your point"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1068.29,"endTime":1071.35,"body":"earlier briefly about, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1071.35,"endTime":1074.77,"body":"not policing people's language."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1071.35,"endTime":1074.77,"body":"I think that's another really"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1075.22,"endTime":1079.48,"body":"tricky, kind of complex part of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1075.22,"endTime":1079.48,"body":"it. Because, yeah, certainly, I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1079.48,"endTime":1082.75,"body":"don't want to be seen as a kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1079.48,"endTime":1082.75,"body":"of word police or anything. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1082.78,"endTime":1086.71,"body":"yeah, absolutely, people have to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1082.78,"endTime":1086.71,"body":"are going to use language or can"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1086.71,"endTime":1090.22,"body":"self identify, and that's not my"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1086.71,"endTime":1090.22,"body":"place, or anyone else's, to tell"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1090.22,"endTime":1093.01,"body":"them how they should or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1090.22,"endTime":1093.01,"body":"shouldn't self identify. I guess"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1093.01,"endTime":1095.56,"body":"I just say, though, that again,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1093.01,"endTime":1095.56,"body":"you know, that happens in a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1095.56,"endTime":1099.97,"body":"context, perhaps the kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1095.56,"endTime":1099.97,"body":"received wisdom is this kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1100.06,"endTime":1103.9,"body":"often falsely dichotomized idea"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1100.06,"endTime":1103.9,"body":"of alcohol problems where you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1103.9,"endTime":1107.14,"body":"either have a problem and it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1103.9,"endTime":1107.14,"body":"really severe and you lose your"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1107.14,"endTime":1111.97,"body":"job, or you don't, and I think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1107.14,"endTime":1111.97,"body":"sections may be society, push"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1111.97,"endTime":1115.45,"body":"that deliberately, because it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1111.97,"endTime":1115.45,"body":"serves the purpose of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1115.87,"endTime":1118.66,"body":"protecting, you know, the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1115.87,"endTime":1118.66,"body":"majority is drinking, as in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1118.66,"endTime":1121.72,"body":"inverted commas, normal, and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1118.66,"endTime":1121.72,"body":"then others, the kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1121.72,"endTime":1124.48,"body":"outgroup is the problem. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1121.72,"endTime":1124.48,"body":"yeah, there's all kinds of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1124.48,"endTime":1127.18,"body":"complex reasons for that. But"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1124.48,"endTime":1127.18,"body":"yeah, I just wanted to sort of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1127.18,"endTime":1130.42,"body":"clarify as well, I agree that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1127.18,"endTime":1130.42,"body":"it's not about telling people"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1130.45,"endTime":1133.27,"body":"how they describe themselves,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1130.45,"endTime":1133.27,"body":"but saying, you know, that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1133.27,"endTime":1137.08,"body":"there's implications from the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1133.27,"endTime":1137.08,"body":"way we frame and discuss and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1137.08,"endTime":1140.11,"body":"think about things. And yeah,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1137.08,"endTime":1140.11,"body":"and the other thing I was really"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1140.14,"endTime":1143.14,"body":"thinking about as well, that you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1140.14,"endTime":1143.14,"body":"mentioned, right at the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1143.14,"endTime":1147.34,"body":"beginning was in terms of kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1143.14,"endTime":1147.34,"body":"of resilience, and I guess also"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1147.34,"endTime":1151.51,"body":"as children, you know, we have"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1147.34,"endTime":1151.51,"body":"protective view of our parents,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1151.51,"endTime":1154.48,"body":"and then there might be some"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1151.51,"endTime":1154.48,"body":"dissonance about how we, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1154.48,"endTime":1157.36,"body":"know, see our parents and then"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1154.48,"endTime":1157.36,"body":"in later life, you know, look"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1157.36,"endTime":1160.24,"body":"back and think you know, course"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1157.36,"endTime":1160.24,"body":"or that in a kind of strange"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1160.24,"endTime":1163.0,"body":"way, but of seeing your parent"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1160.24,"endTime":1163.0,"body":"as having an alcohol problem as"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1163.0,"endTime":1166.03,"body":"a child is a difficult thing to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1163.0,"endTime":1166.03,"body":"do, because that goes against"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1166.03,"endTime":1168.88,"body":"how we're kind of I think,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1166.03,"endTime":1168.88,"body":"primed or designed in many ways"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1168.88,"endTime":1172.78,"body":"to, you know, trust and love and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1168.88,"endTime":1172.78,"body":"care about and care for our"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1172.78,"endTime":1175.6,"body":"parents as well. That's kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1172.78,"endTime":1175.6,"body":"part of our innate desire. So"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1175.6,"endTime":1178.45,"body":"it's only really kind of looking"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1175.6,"endTime":1178.45,"body":"back that we might unpick things"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1178.45,"endTime":1180.01,"body":"and see them a bit differently."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1178.45,"endTime":1180.01,"body":"But"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1180.1,"endTime":1182.59,"body":"yeah, absolutely"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1180.1,"endTime":1182.59,"body":"right. And these things stay"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1182.59,"endTime":1185.41,"body":"with children as well. I always"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1182.59,"endTime":1185.41,"body":"ask themselves, they always go"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1185.41,"endTime":1187.87,"body":"over these things and try to"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1185.41,"endTime":1187.87,"body":"understand what you know,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1187.9,"endTime":1189.76,"body":"wherever they could have done"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1187.9,"endTime":1189.76,"body":"something else and and"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1189.76,"endTime":1192.91,"body":"obviously, you also feel guilty"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1189.76,"endTime":1192.91,"body":"as well and you speak out who"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1192.91,"endTime":1195.43,"body":"wouldn't do whether you're sort"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1192.91,"endTime":1195.43,"body":"of being disrespectful to his"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1195.46,"endTime":1199.99,"body":"legacy or memory but, but I also"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1195.46,"endTime":1199.99,"body":"know that when I speak out like"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1200.08,"endTime":1204.49,"body":"A lot of messages of support."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1200.08,"endTime":1204.49,"body":"But one of the most important"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1204.49,"endTime":1207.97,"body":"ones was when I was stopped by"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1204.49,"endTime":1207.97,"body":"somebody. They said, Oh, you"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1207.97,"endTime":1210.76,"body":"light up on you. And when you"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1207.97,"endTime":1210.76,"body":"get stopped by people going,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1210.76,"endTime":1213.79,"body":"you're that MP thing. I'll"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1210.76,"endTime":1213.79,"body":"where's this going? Because"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1214.24,"endTime":1217.03,"body":"anyway, they said to me saw your"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1214.24,"endTime":1217.03,"body":"speech in Parliament, it was"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1217.03,"endTime":1222.04,"body":"going around Facebook, and my"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1217.03,"endTime":1222.04,"body":"son showed it to me, my 14 year"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1222.04,"endTime":1225.19,"body":"old son showed it to me. And"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1222.04,"endTime":1225.19,"body":"because of that, I was able to"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1225.19,"endTime":1228.97,"body":"have a conversation with my son"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1225.19,"endTime":1228.97,"body":"about my drinking. So thank you"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1228.97,"endTime":1232.15,"body":"for speaking out. And just that"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1228.97,"endTime":1232.15,"body":"conversation, that one"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1232.15,"endTime":1236.56,"body":"conversation, I think, makes"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1232.15,"endTime":1236.56,"body":"doing what I was doing"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1236.56,"endTime":1237.28,"body":"worthwhile."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1238.63,"endTime":1241.63,"body":"Yeah, and, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1238.63,"endTime":1241.63,"body":"know, I'm sure hundreds or 1000s"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1241.63,"endTime":1246.1,"body":"of others have happened as a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1241.63,"endTime":1246.1,"body":"result of what you've done and,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1246.34,"endTime":1248.74,"body":"and some of your other"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1246.34,"endTime":1248.74,"body":"colleagues as well have done"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1248.89,"endTime":1252.01,"body":"very bravely. And admirably as"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1248.89,"endTime":1252.01,"body":"well. And yeah, I think, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1252.01,"endTime":1255.85,"body":"know, as MPs you're are very"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1252.01,"endTime":1255.85,"body":"much under the spotlight in in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1255.85,"endTime":1259.33,"body":"in influential positions, and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1255.85,"endTime":1259.33,"body":"being able to talk about things"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1259.33,"endTime":1262.9,"body":"that potentially might cause"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1259.33,"endTime":1262.9,"body":"people to make assumptions or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1262.9,"endTime":1267.01,"body":"judgments or you know, view in a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1262.9,"endTime":1267.01,"body":"less positive light takes a lot"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1267.01,"endTime":1270.73,"body":"of courage and but also brings"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1267.01,"endTime":1270.73,"body":"the issue out into the open more"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1270.73,"endTime":1274.87,"body":"and hopefully enables other"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1270.73,"endTime":1274.87,"body":"people to feel more normalised"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1274.87,"endTime":1278.35,"body":"talking about what often tricky"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1274.87,"endTime":1278.35,"body":"issues to do. And as you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1278.35,"endTime":1281.5,"body":"you know, I'm big fan of other"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1278.35,"endTime":1281.5,"body":"people doing so Adrian, Charles,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1281.5,"endTime":1284.17,"body":"I think, had a really good"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1281.5,"endTime":1284.17,"body":"impact. And we know that when"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1284.17,"endTime":1287.71,"body":"his documentary came out that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1284.17,"endTime":1287.71,"body":"lots of people, more people"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1287.71,"endTime":1292.54,"body":"requested help, and more apps"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1287.71,"endTime":1292.54,"body":"were downloaded and so on. And I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1292.54,"endTime":1295.12,"body":"expect similar effects have"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1292.54,"endTime":1295.12,"body":"happened from others who have"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1295.12,"endTime":1298.36,"body":"recently shared their story. So"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1295.12,"endTime":1298.36,"body":"yeah, as you know, like, I'm"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1298.36,"endTime":1301.39,"body":"just really grateful and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1298.36,"endTime":1301.39,"body":"supportive of anyone who talks"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1301.39,"endTime":1304.96,"body":"about their experience, because"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1301.39,"endTime":1304.96,"body":"yeah, we just need that to keep"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1304.96,"endTime":1308.08,"body":"that conversation going. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1304.96,"endTime":1308.08,"body":"hopefully that in turn will help"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1308.08,"endTime":1311.95,"body":"reduce stigma and increase"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1308.08,"endTime":1311.95,"body":"support for policies that also"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1311.98,"endTime":1315.73,"body":"can help us be more preventative"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1311.98,"endTime":1315.73,"body":"about about alcohols initiative."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1316.18,"endTime":1318.22,"body":"No, absolutely,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1316.18,"endTime":1318.22,"body":"absolutely. I mean, it's so"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1318.22,"endTime":1321.43,"body":"important when people speak out,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1318.22,"endTime":1321.43,"body":"it does make a difference. I've"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1321.43,"endTime":1324.19,"body":"seen that directly. And"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1321.43,"endTime":1324.19,"body":"actually, by speaking out, also,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1324.19,"endTime":1329.05,"body":"we eventually persuade the"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1324.19,"endTime":1329.05,"body":"government. Jeremy odd, it was a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1329.05,"endTime":1333.43,"body":"health sucked at the time was so"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1329.05,"endTime":1333.43,"body":"moved and persuaded by the"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1333.43,"endTime":1336.7,"body":"points we were making, that he"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1333.43,"endTime":1336.7,"body":"allocated a pot of money to"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1336.7,"endTime":1343.99,"body":"support various charities to"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1336.7,"endTime":1343.99,"body":"help children of children"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1343.99,"endTime":1347.44,"body":"impacted by parental drinking."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1343.99,"endTime":1347.44,"body":"But suddenly, that money is now"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1347.47,"endTime":1352.09,"body":"dried up and is not being"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1347.47,"endTime":1352.09,"body":"replaced, which is something I'm"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1352.09,"endTime":1354.85,"body":"very disappointed and angry"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1352.09,"endTime":1354.85,"body":"about. But at least for a few"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1354.85,"endTime":1357.55,"body":"years, there was some extra"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1354.85,"endTime":1357.55,"body":"support in place for the various"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1357.55,"endTime":1359.14,"body":"charities who work in this"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1357.55,"endTime":1359.14,"body":"space."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1359.38,"endTime":1362.65,"body":"And if you don't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1359.38,"endTime":1362.65,"body":"mind me asking, How has your"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1362.65,"endTime":1365.77,"body":"experience you think kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1362.65,"endTime":1365.77,"body":"shapes your own relationship"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1365.77,"endTime":1367.9,"body":"with alcohol. I mean, there's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1365.77,"endTime":1367.9,"body":"obviously kind of a bit of a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1367.9,"endTime":1372.49,"body":"reputation of a parliamentary"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1367.9,"endTime":1372.49,"body":"drinking culture. And, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1372.49,"endTime":1375.19,"body":"people kind of often say, who is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1372.49,"endTime":1375.19,"body":"disgraced that there's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1375.19,"endTime":1378.67,"body":"subsidised bars in the House of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1375.19,"endTime":1378.67,"body":"Commons or whatever. But yeah,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1378.67,"endTime":1382.15,"body":"do you have any sort of personal"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1378.67,"endTime":1382.15,"body":"reflections about alcohol that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1382.15,"endTime":1382.45,"body":"you're?"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1383.23,"endTime":1388.24,"body":"Well, I mean, I do"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1383.23,"endTime":1388.24,"body":"drink. But I'm also very happy"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1388.24,"endTime":1392.26,"body":"not to drink. And I can, you"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1388.24,"endTime":1392.26,"body":"know, very happy to go weeks, if"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1392.26,"endTime":1397.36,"body":"not months, not drinking, but I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1392.26,"endTime":1397.36,"body":"mean, I do drink. And I'm always"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1397.36,"endTime":1401.35,"body":"sort of conscious thinking about"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1397.36,"endTime":1401.35,"body":"what you know how much I'm"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1401.35,"endTime":1405.19,"body":"drinking when I do drink. There"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1401.35,"endTime":1405.19,"body":"is I mean, the alcohol, culture"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1405.19,"endTime":1408.37,"body":"and politics. And when there was"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1405.19,"endTime":1408.37,"body":"an alcohol culture, it's not as"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1408.37,"endTime":1413.02,"body":"bad as it was years ago. So I've"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1408.37,"endTime":1413.02,"body":"seen it change considerably in"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1413.02,"endTime":1417.64,"body":"20 years. Since I started off as"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1413.02,"endTime":1417.64,"body":"a researcher in politics to"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1417.64,"endTime":1420.37,"body":"becoming an MP now there's not"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1417.64,"endTime":1420.37,"body":"as much drinking that goes on, I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1420.37,"endTime":1426.37,"body":"would say, although there is"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1420.37,"endTime":1426.37,"body":"more scrutiny, and a wareness of"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1427.09,"endTime":1433.0,"body":"the inappropriate and sometimes"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1427.09,"endTime":1433.0,"body":"quite horrible behaviour of"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1433.15,"endTime":1437.05,"body":"drinking MPs. We've seen various"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1433.15,"endTime":1437.05,"body":"examples in recent times Haven't"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1437.05,"endTime":1441.76,"body":"we have MPs being alleged sexual"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1437.05,"endTime":1441.76,"body":"assaults and things like that,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1441.76,"endTime":1444.52,"body":"from you know, Cena and the"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1441.76,"endTime":1444.52,"body":"papers were one or two very"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1444.55,"endTime":1449.2,"body":"dreadful cases in recent times."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1444.55,"endTime":1449.2,"body":"Assume that alcohol plays a part"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1449.2,"endTime":1452.23,"body":"in some other. Broadly speaking,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1449.2,"endTime":1452.23,"body":"though, I don't, I don't think"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1452.23,"endTime":1456.43,"body":"MPs drink as much as what used"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1452.23,"endTime":1456.43,"body":"to happen 20 odd years ago, and"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1456.43,"endTime":1458.86,"body":"because the hours are different"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1456.43,"endTime":1458.86,"body":"in Parliament, but there are"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1458.86,"endTime":1461.44,"body":"bars in Parliament, I never"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1458.86,"endTime":1461.44,"body":"really know. This might sound"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1461.44,"endTime":1464.44,"body":"slightly naive point. And I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1461.44,"endTime":1464.44,"body":"might provoke a backlash by"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1464.44,"endTime":1466.69,"body":"saying this, I never actually"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1464.44,"endTime":1466.69,"body":"know whether the drinks are"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1466.69,"endTime":1470.5,"body":"subsidised or not. I know people"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1466.69,"endTime":1470.5,"body":"say this, but I don't remember"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1470.5,"endTime":1473.83,"body":"this sort of for Well, maybe"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1470.5,"endTime":1473.83,"body":"it's just not for, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1473.83,"endTime":1476.14,"body":"they don't make a profit on what"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1473.83,"endTime":1476.14,"body":"they sell. It's something like"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1476.14,"endTime":1478.6,"body":"that. I don't know. But it's I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1476.14,"endTime":1478.6,"body":"suspect, though, like it's a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1478.6,"endTime":1481.96,"body":"high adrenaline environment. And"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1478.6,"endTime":1481.96,"body":"I suspect in any high adrenaline"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1481.96,"endTime":1484.9,"body":"work environment, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1481.96,"endTime":1484.9,"body":"drinking goes on whether they"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1484.93,"endTime":1488.05,"body":"were regardless if they have a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1484.93,"endTime":1488.05,"body":"bar on their work in their"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1488.05,"endTime":1491.8,"body":"workplace or not imagined most"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1488.05,"endTime":1491.8,"body":"high adrenaline environments"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1491.8,"endTime":1494.65,"body":"have, you know, a local pub, a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1491.8,"endTime":1494.65,"body":"local bar where we're well"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1494.92,"endTime":1498.19,"body":"aware, perhaps too much drinking"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1494.92,"endTime":1498.19,"body":"goes on. I don't think there's"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1498.19,"endTime":1501.25,"body":"something particular to politics"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1498.19,"endTime":1501.25,"body":"which which is different to"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1501.25,"endTime":1504.49,"body":"other very pressured work"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1501.25,"endTime":1504.49,"body":"environments, I suspect?"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1504.73,"endTime":1507.49,"body":"Yeah. And I think,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1504.73,"endTime":1507.49,"body":"you know, I've discussed with"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1507.49,"endTime":1510.25,"body":"other guests before that, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1507.49,"endTime":1510.25,"body":"know, it's really important that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1510.25,"endTime":1514.57,"body":"we don't ignore the benefits of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1510.25,"endTime":1514.57,"body":"alcohol to people socially,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1514.57,"endTime":1518.44,"body":"mainly. And you know, it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1514.57,"endTime":1518.44,"body":"complex, we can say that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1518.47,"endTime":1521.71,"body":"moderate levels of alcohol, if"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1518.47,"endTime":1521.71,"body":"we define that as within the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1521.71,"endTime":1525.79,"body":"guidelines of 14 units a week,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1521.71,"endTime":1525.79,"body":"are very unlikely to cause"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1525.79,"endTime":1529.3,"body":"health problems, and that there"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1525.79,"endTime":1529.3,"body":"is a place for moderate"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1529.3,"endTime":1532.63,"body":"drinking, I think most people"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1529.3,"endTime":1532.63,"body":"would say, where the benefits"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1532.63,"endTime":1535.75,"body":"for the vast majority of those"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1532.63,"endTime":1535.75,"body":"people presumably outweigh the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1535.75,"endTime":1539.86,"body":"costs. So I do think, yeah, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1535.75,"endTime":1539.86,"body":"know, it's not useful for the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1539.86,"endTime":1544.33,"body":"case against alcohol harm, if we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1539.86,"endTime":1544.33,"body":"fall into the arguments that we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1544.33,"endTime":1547.21,"body":"just the Neo temperance lobby,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1544.33,"endTime":1547.21,"body":"as if you know, we want to go"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1547.21,"endTime":1549.61,"body":"back to prohibitionist or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1547.21,"endTime":1549.61,"body":"anything like that. That's not"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1549.61,"endTime":1552.52,"body":"not what we want. But it is a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1549.61,"endTime":1552.52,"body":"really complex and tricky"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1552.55,"endTime":1556.6,"body":"question, you know, to what"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1552.55,"endTime":1556.6,"body":"extent should regulation, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1556.6,"endTime":1559.69,"body":"know, apply or pricing or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1556.6,"endTime":1559.69,"body":"whatever, and, you know, there's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1559.69,"endTime":1563.2,"body":"no, you know, there's no fine"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1559.69,"endTime":1563.2,"body":"line, there's lots of grey areas"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1563.23,"endTime":1565.81,"body":"as there is with trying to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1563.23,"endTime":1565.81,"body":"understand alcohol problems,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1565.81,"endTime":1568.96,"body":"etc. But, yeah, perhaps we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1565.81,"endTime":1568.96,"body":"haven't quite got the balance,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1568.96,"endTime":1572.77,"body":"right, in terms of regulation"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1568.96,"endTime":1572.77,"body":"and cultural permissiveness or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1572.77,"endTime":1574.45,"body":"attitudes towards it, but"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1574.72,"endTime":1578.47,"body":"I mean,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1574.72,"endTime":1578.47,"body":"absolutely. Right. And I think"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1578.68,"endTime":1582.43,"body":"some of these issues are, I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1578.68,"endTime":1582.43,"body":"mean, there's obviously, you"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1582.43,"endTime":1585.76,"body":"know, an important and important"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1582.43,"endTime":1585.76,"body":"lobby for alcohol. You know, the"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1585.76,"endTime":1590.23,"body":"scotch whisky industry is a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1585.76,"endTime":1590.23,"body":"significant part of our economy"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1590.23,"endTime":1592.9,"body":"in Scotland and isn't a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1590.23,"endTime":1592.9,"body":"significant part of our exports."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1592.93,"endTime":1598.09,"body":"You know, we've got for parts of"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1592.93,"endTime":1598.09,"body":"the Southwest, the traditional"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1598.09,"endTime":1601.78,"body":"cider industries are important"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1598.09,"endTime":1601.78,"body":"part of their economy. And of"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1601.78,"endTime":1605.44,"body":"course, politicians are always"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1601.78,"endTime":1605.44,"body":"worried about us appearing to be"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1605.44,"endTime":1608.68,"body":"sort of killjoys, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1605.44,"endTime":1608.68,"body":"every budget of Chancellor will"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1608.68,"endTime":1611.38,"body":"get up and say, I'm taking a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1608.68,"endTime":1611.38,"body":"penny off a pint. Well, notice"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1611.38,"endTime":1614.62,"body":"every budget, we know when they"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1611.38,"endTime":1614.62,"body":"do so. They'd love to say that"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1614.62,"endTime":1617.29,"body":"so and there's always then"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1614.62,"endTime":1617.29,"body":"follows the picture of them"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1617.29,"endTime":1619.72,"body":"pulling a pint in a pub"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1617.29,"endTime":1619.72,"body":"somewhere that appears next"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1619.72,"endTime":1623.11,"body":"day's tabloid newspapers. So I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1619.72,"endTime":1623.11,"body":"think I think politicians"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1623.11,"endTime":1629.44,"body":"because sometimes anxious on"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1623.11,"endTime":1629.44,"body":"these issues, and worried about"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1629.62,"endTime":1632.35,"body":"intervening? So these are some"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1629.62,"endTime":1632.35,"body":"of the challenges we always have"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1632.35,"endTime":1634.48,"body":"to confront when we talk about"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1632.35,"endTime":1634.48,"body":"the alcohol industry."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1634.51,"endTime":1637.3,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1634.51,"endTime":1637.3,"body":"I mean, I think the the economic"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1637.3,"endTime":1642.01,"body":"case is pretty clear that that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1637.3,"endTime":1642.01,"body":"the harms, the costs to society"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1642.07,"endTime":1645.97,"body":"are outweighing the economic"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1642.07,"endTime":1645.97,"body":"benefits, at least that yes, we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1645.97,"endTime":1649.24,"body":"don't project the benefits exist"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1645.97,"endTime":1649.24,"body":"both kind of socially or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1649.24,"endTime":1652.54,"body":"individually, as well as there"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1649.24,"endTime":1652.54,"body":"are economic benefits, but"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1652.54,"endTime":1655.3,"body":"obviously, a lot of costs as"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1652.54,"endTime":1655.3,"body":"well. But I guess, you know, my"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1655.3,"endTime":1658.15,"body":"view is, in a way, actually, we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1655.3,"endTime":1658.15,"body":"need you know, it's like you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1658.33,"endTime":1661.15,"body":"mentioned earlier with the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1658.33,"endTime":1661.15,"body":"pandemic and the hidden harm"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1661.15,"endTime":1665.14,"body":"from alcohol use behind closed"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1661.15,"endTime":1665.14,"body":"doors. And even as you say, the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1665.14,"endTime":1668.83,"body":"sort of lunchtime or workplace"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1665.14,"endTime":1668.83,"body":"drinking culture has improved a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1668.83,"endTime":1672.46,"body":"lot. But you know, what we've"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1668.83,"endTime":1672.46,"body":"essentially seen over the last"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1672.49,"endTime":1677.26,"body":"2030 years or longer is a shift"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1672.49,"endTime":1677.26,"body":"essentially, where almost all"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1677.26,"endTime":1681.91,"body":"drinking was done in on trade"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1677.26,"endTime":1681.91,"body":"premises, in pubs and so on to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1681.91,"endTime":1685.45,"body":"where it's now basically the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1681.91,"endTime":1685.45,"body":"other way around, sort of 80% I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1685.45,"endTime":1689.32,"body":"think as much as all consumption"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1685.45,"endTime":1689.32,"body":"is now off trade. So I do think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1689.32,"endTime":1692.71,"body":"there is a sort of policy case"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1689.32,"endTime":1692.71,"body":"or public health case even for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1692.71,"endTime":1696.49,"body":"saying, we want to remove the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1692.71,"endTime":1696.49,"body":"really your kind of curb the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1696.49,"endTime":1699.43,"body":"really cheap off sale,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1696.49,"endTime":1699.43,"body":"supermarket stack at high sell"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1699.43,"endTime":1703.39,"body":"it cheap culture sort of partly"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1699.43,"endTime":1703.39,"body":"drives home drinking and try and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1703.39,"endTime":1707.86,"body":"move more drinking occasions"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1703.39,"endTime":1707.86,"body":"back to safer regulated spaces."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1707.89,"endTime":1711.13,"body":"But yeah, again, that's a kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1707.89,"endTime":1711.13,"body":"of difficult and complex"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1711.16,"endTime":1711.82,"body":"argument."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1712.33,"endTime":1715.6,"body":"Yeah, no, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1712.33,"endTime":1715.6,"body":"absolutely. And you know, then"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1715.6,"endTime":1718.72,"body":"you get into sort of questions"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1715.6,"endTime":1718.72,"body":"around, you know, the big"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1718.72,"endTime":1722.77,"body":"supermarkets, and you know, what"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1718.72,"endTime":1722.77,"body":"they can charge. And, of course,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1722.77,"endTime":1724.87,"body":"there's another issue, which is"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1722.77,"endTime":1724.87,"body":"the sort of meat of a topical"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1724.87,"endTime":1728.26,"body":"issue at the moment is this"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1724.87,"endTime":1728.26,"body":"energy crisis means that pubs"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1728.29,"endTime":1733.24,"body":"and restaurants are facing huge,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1728.29,"endTime":1733.24,"body":"huge catastrophic energy bills"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1733.24,"endTime":1735.31,"body":"with many of them. And they'll"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1733.24,"endTime":1735.31,"body":"start having less than where I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1735.31,"endTime":1737.08,"body":"live, I mean, many of them are"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1735.31,"endTime":1737.08,"body":"asking themselves whether they"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1737.08,"endTime":1740.53,"body":"can survive, we could see a wave"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1737.08,"endTime":1740.53,"body":"of pub and restaurant closures,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1740.56,"endTime":1745.72,"body":"which is devastating for local"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1740.56,"endTime":1745.72,"body":"jobs and livelihoods. But that"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1745.72,"endTime":1749.74,"body":"again, could drive even more"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1745.72,"endTime":1749.74,"body":"alcohol consumption into the"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1749.74,"endTime":1751.09,"body":"home. Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1751.48,"endTime":1754.09,"body":"I don't know what"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1751.48,"endTime":1754.09,"body":"the stats are at present. But"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1754.09,"endTime":1757.0,"body":"you know, even pre pandemic, I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1754.09,"endTime":1757.0,"body":"think pub closures were"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1757.0,"endTime":1760.75,"body":"something like close to 30 a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1757.0,"endTime":1760.75,"body":"week, which fallen from a period"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1760.75,"endTime":1764.89,"body":"where it was over 50 a week. So"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1760.75,"endTime":1764.89,"body":"yeah, we're still losing pubs in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1764.89,"endTime":1767.77,"body":"on trade premises. And I'm sure"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1764.89,"endTime":1767.77,"body":"the pandemics probably"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1767.77,"endTime":1772.06,"body":"accelerated that and embedded a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1767.77,"endTime":1772.06,"body":"kind of home drinking culture"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1772.06,"endTime":1775.93,"body":"even more or heavier patterns,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1772.06,"endTime":1775.93,"body":"as we know that pandemic people"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1775.93,"endTime":1779.95,"body":"with pre existing heavy alcohol"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1775.93,"endTime":1779.95,"body":"use or alcohol related problems."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1780.25,"endTime":1783.04,"body":"You were the people whose"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1780.25,"endTime":1783.04,"body":"drinking really, really"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1783.04,"endTime":1785.77,"body":"increased. So yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1783.04,"endTime":1785.77,"body":"we're going to be seeing the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1785.77,"endTime":1789.52,"body":"effects of that for years to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1785.77,"endTime":1789.52,"body":"come. And yeah, hopefully, we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1789.52,"endTime":1793.42,"body":"will start to see some more"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1789.52,"endTime":1793.42,"body":"proactive policy changes to help"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1793.45,"endTime":1796.15,"body":"kind of try and redress that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1793.45,"endTime":1796.15,"body":"both in terms of as you say,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1796.15,"endTime":1799.87,"body":"investment in services, as well"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1796.15,"endTime":1799.87,"body":"as the upstream stuff around"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1799.9,"endTime":1802.51,"body":"pricing availability and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1799.9,"endTime":1802.51,"body":"marketing and perhaps maybe"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1802.51,"endTime":1807.28,"body":"trying to offer more support to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1802.51,"endTime":1807.28,"body":"potentially more regulated safer"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1807.31,"endTime":1810.46,"body":"on trade spaces. Let's not say"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1807.31,"endTime":1810.46,"body":"that all home drinking is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1810.46,"endTime":1814.12,"body":"inherently bad. But yeah, of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1810.46,"endTime":1814.12,"body":"course, we know that a lot of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1814.18,"endTime":1818.14,"body":"very real harm damage or heavy"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1814.18,"endTime":1818.14,"body":"drinking is done. Alright, John."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1818.17,"endTime":1822.88,"body":"Well, yeah, unless you've got"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1818.17,"endTime":1822.88,"body":"any final reflections. Well,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1822.88,"endTime":1825.97,"body":"thank you so much for for coming"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1822.88,"endTime":1825.97,"body":"on the show. And again, for you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1825.97,"endTime":1829.18,"body":"know, talking so openly about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1825.97,"endTime":1829.18,"body":"your experience and being you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1829.18,"endTime":1833.05,"body":"know, really valuable advocate"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1829.18,"endTime":1833.05,"body":"for for this really real issue"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1833.05,"endTime":1835.99,"body":"of alcohol problems. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1833.05,"endTime":1835.99,"body":"importantly, I think, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1835.99,"endTime":1840.16,"body":"affected others that that often"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1835.99,"endTime":1840.16,"body":"doesn't get enough attention or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1840.16,"endTime":1843.01,"body":"enough space in terms of the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1840.16,"endTime":1843.01,"body":"spillover effects, how other"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1843.01,"endTime":1846.13,"body":"people's drinking affects other"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1843.01,"endTime":1846.13,"body":"people. I think that that is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1846.13,"endTime":1850.54,"body":"really something that needs that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1846.13,"endTime":1850.54,"body":"needs more active attention as"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1850.54,"endTime":1851.08,"body":"well. And"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1851.62,"endTime":1853.06,"body":"Thank you for"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1851.62,"endTime":1853.06,"body":"having me. And it's been a"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1853.06,"endTime":1856.0,"body":"really fascinating discussion."},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1853.06,"endTime":1856.0,"body":"And it's such an important"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1856.0,"endTime":1859.39,"body":"issue, and I'm not in there,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1856.0,"endTime":1859.39,"body":"shutter health brief. Now, I'm"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1859.39,"endTime":1862.9,"body":"in the Shadow Work and Pensions"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1859.39,"endTime":1862.9,"body":"brief. And I'm very, completely"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1862.9,"endTime":1866.68,"body":"preoccupied at the moment with"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1862.9,"endTime":1866.68,"body":"the rising cost of living and"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1866.68,"endTime":1869.98,"body":"the impoverishment of our fellow"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1866.68,"endTime":1869.98,"body":"citizens that we're seeing. And"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1870.4,"endTime":1874.51,"body":"I know that when poverty and"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1870.4,"endTime":1874.51,"body":"deprivation increases, people"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1874.54,"endTime":1881.02,"body":"increasingly turn to alcohol and"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1874.54,"endTime":1881.02,"body":"substance use to self medicate"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1881.08,"endTime":1884.89,"body":"to relieve the pressures that"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1881.08,"endTime":1884.89,"body":"they're under. And that in"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1884.89,"endTime":1888.55,"body":"itself leads to social problems"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1884.89,"endTime":1888.55,"body":"for the individuals health"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1888.55,"endTime":1892.99,"body":"outcomes, family breakdown,"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1888.55,"endTime":1892.99,"body":"sadly, violence and so when, as"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1892.99,"endTime":1896.77,"body":"we've as we've discussed, so"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1892.99,"endTime":1896.77,"body":"this is, this is a really"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1896.8,"endTime":1902.59,"body":"worrying time, but one that I"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1896.8,"endTime":1902.59,"body":"will continue to speak about in"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1902.59,"endTime":1904.09,"body":"public. So thank you for having"},{"speaker":"Jon Ashworth","startTime":1902.59,"endTime":1904.09,"body":"me."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1904.24,"endTime":1908.92,"body":"Thanks again,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1904.24,"endTime":1908.92,"body":"John. Thanks so much. Thanks for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1908.92,"endTime":1912.55,"body":"listening to this episode of the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1908.92,"endTime":1912.55,"body":"alcohol problem podcast. You can"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1912.55,"endTime":1915.67,"body":"find us on Twitter and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1912.55,"endTime":1915.67,"body":"Instagram, at @alcoholpodcast,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1916.66,"endTime":1919.48,"body":"so please feel free to follow us"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1916.66,"endTime":1919.48,"body":"or get in touch there."}]}