James Morris:  Okay. So Chris, thanks so much for joining me here. Um, yeah, it's really great to have you on the show, and I'm really looking forward to hearing about your experiences and the issue of alcohol use in the military and so on. So could you just start off by giving a little bit of a background about yourself and your professional role, and then we'll talk a bit more about your own experiences of alcohol use and problems.

Chris Barnes: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So I, I'm a, a researcher. I work at Liverpool john Moores University at the minute. I'm working as a lead researcher on a, on a stigma project. So the project looks to reduce professional stigma towards people affected by alcohol and other drug use. My background, I was in the army. I served on the army in 2005.

Uh, I served eight years in the regular army, and then I moved to the army reserve, and that's when... I guess that's when I was sort of introduced to alcohol, and it just... Yeah, my use of alcohol developed as the years went by for different reasons. But it spiked my interest in alcohol use with veteran health [00:01:00] and the drug and alcohol sector in, in general, you know, 'cause over the years I've worked for national providers of drug and alcohol treatment services.

And the more exposure I've had to veterans and non-veterans, it- it's a huge topic, and I think more people talking about it, the better, you know. 

 James Morris: Absolutely. Yeah. So perhaps could we go back to how maybe you first started to use alcohol and, and what were the kind of motives or reasons for that, and then maybe we'll explore how it developed from there.

Chris Barnes: Yeah, definitely. So I, I never used to drink alcohol at all before I joined the army, which sounds surprising, but I actually joined the army at 17. I didn't drink at all, and, you know, my family sort of situation wasn't the best. I was, like, sofa surfing, living with different friends. So it wasn't a priority for me.

And I, I guess 'cause I hadn't tried it, I didn't really know what the experience was. But then I joined the army, and that's when it all changed. Did my basic training in October 2005. And obviously, you're, you're working every day. You're up at 6:00, you go to bed at 11:00 or whatever. [00:02:00] There isn't time to drink.

But what you do do is you build up a load of leave, and then at the end of that leave, what do you do? You go out with all the lads who you've gone through basic training with, and then have a skinful, you know, have a fair few drinks. And it was during that time I sort of, I don't know, first time I got properly drunk I was like, "This is actually pretty good," you know?

It's, it's a nice feeling of I don't need to care about anything. I can just get absolutely wasted. And it w- it was encouraged, you know, it was encouraged to drink your own body weight in booze. I remember that's what the battery sergeant major said, "Drink your own body weight in booze but make sure you're back here at this date, you know, for your next lot of training."

And so that's exactly what we did. Every leave period that you had in the Army you would drink. And it, it ... You'd almost show off, you know, as the years went on. You could have a skinful, come in after being on the lash at 4:00 AM, as long as you can pass the PT fitness tests, y- you know, you're almost like Jack the Lad, are you?

You know, it's, it's a, it's almost like a badge of honor. You know, you j- they saw you come in through the guard room at [00:03:00] 4:00 staggering out a taxi with a kebab and then, uh, at 7:00 AM you've just smashed a mile and a half run or an eight mile loaded march or something. So y- as long, as long as you didn't fail any of the fitness tests the alcohol wasn't seen as an issue.

And I did that for a few years. I was always the lad who'd drink maybe a little bit too much and, you know, I'd always end up in a little bit of trouble. Uh, and the most trouble you would get into would be a guard duty, you know, 'cause you've missed a parade or, you know, maybe you've been scrapping downtown or, or maybe not behaving yourself as well as what you should have done.

But the most you'd get is a weekend guard duty. And as long as you didn't mess up again the alcohol use was almost encouraged at every social occasion. And it was really weird because in the Army, you know, believe it or not there's a lot of time when th- there isn't much to do. Especially in the early years between like 2005 and 2008-9, there was a lot of boredom, and so with the boredom comes the alcohol, and you'd just go down the NAAFI and get drunk during the week, and you're getting drunk on weekends.[00:04:00] 

And it was mainly the boredom that was fueling it up until that point. And then they asked for volunteers for people to go to Afghanistan. And I guess in my mind, like you join the Army and you join to deploy to go to war, that's the purpose of the Army and I, I felt like if I didn't do that, then I wasn't fulfilling the, the reason why I joined the army.

Chris Barnes: And so I, uh, volunteered to go to Afghan, and then the training for that was probably about a year long. It was a lot of training, you know, loads of courses all over. We did some training in Germany and America, and that was just before the deployment as well. So I was-- there was quite a lot of pressure with where you needed to be and what you needed to pass to deploy.

And so any bit of downtime that I had, I was drinking then, but it was more just for like stress relief to switch off after, I don't know, maybe a two-week exercise or something. And there was a noticeable change there. I actually nearly missed the coach to go to Afghanistan because I'd drank eight cans of Guinness.

I was having a few hours with my wife at the [00:05:00] time, and, yeah, I'd had a few too many. I checked my watch. I didn't get to say goodbye to her properly because I had to get all my stuff and get to the coach with about 10 minutes to spare. A-and then obviously you deploy to Afghanistan. You've got a six-month, seven-month deployment.

You get a two-week break, which I took right at the end of that seven months, and during that two weeks I just drank excessively because I couldn't... That's when things had changed, I think, 'cause I-- before I'd been using it for boredom, then I was using it for like stress relief or to switch off after a hard time away with the army.

And then here I was, four and a half months after Afghanistan. I deployed in 2009 to, to 10, and my role out there was looking for IEDs with a metal detector. So I'd walk out in front of everyone else with this metal detector and just look for IEDs. That was my job. Um, it was stressful, you know. It was really stressful because you-- there wasn't any adrenaline to keep you going, and if you missed something, you know, it not only could it kill you, but it could hit somebody else, [00:06:00] and ultimately you're responsible for that.

So I did that for the first tour, and I got back after four and a half months of doing that on different ops, uh, operations, sorry, and I got absolutely mullered for two weeks because I couldn't quite process what the hell had just happened. 

Chris Barnes: A-and when I'm in Afghanistan, there was no alcohol to take the edge off it.

You were experiencing things full on more than I ever have done in years And I drank excessively for two weeks, went back to Afghan. And then we had like a, it was an end of tour medals parade where we all marched through a city in Liverpool. We had a massive squadron piss up. Like we got so drunk it was unreal.

But it was almost, I wouldn't say the Army encouraged it, but it definitely wasn't not encouraged. It was there. Drinking's a big part of the British Army. And yeah, I'd, I'd seized it with both hands because of what it was giving me at the time. Um, and that was like I continued drinking excessive amounts for, you're talking like another 10 years after that.

So I did [00:07:00] another deployment after that. Exactly the same. I'd drink before it, drink during my two-week break, and then I got mullered afterwards. But then when I came... I left the Army, so I came away from the regular Army 2013, and I tried to leave the Army and just come to civvy street and be a civilian and just be.

Uh, the problem was that I didn't even know what council tax was. I came to civvy street, I remember getting this bloody council tax bill, and it came through the post. And I was like, "What on earth is this?" You know, so I called them and I was like, you know, "What's this, this bill?" And they, they said, uh, you know, "It's for emptying your bins, streetlights."

I said, "Well, you haven't emptied the bins yet. I'll pay you when you do." They're like, "No, you're good. You pay it." But the purpose of that is just to show you how not well prepared I was coming to civvy street. And then I was having to start again. I was doing a few engineering courses in non-destructive testing.

So I'd gone from looking for IEDs to looking at pieces of metal, looking for cracks or whatever. And it was so boring. It was absolutely boring. There was no purpose or meaning to it. Um, [00:08:00] so I, I drink. I drank loads, absolutely loads, and my marriage fails quite quickly. And then I was hanging around with people from the pubs, you know, so we would...

You'd have like this social circle, but it all revolved around drinking. And having left the Army you had no social network at all, so this social network that I'd found was better than nothing. But unfortunately, through that social network I was kind of introduced to cocaine and I thought things were bad before, you know, I was getting into s- spots of bother, but I think with the cocaine there was

it made it even worse. You know, risk-taking behavior. I was getting into a lot of, a lot of trouble, and I ended up in court. You know, I ended up in court for something that happened. Uh, and it just by luck, I, I got a, I, I think the judge understood. Um, I got a conditional discharge, which is, you know, it's a bit higher than a caution.

But, but it gave me a bit of an eye-opener to think that there are consequences to alcohol use on civvy street that there aren't when you're in the Army. And you, you know, there's ways of behaving. So it was, yeah, it was a bit of a shock, the transition, [00:09:00] and I kind of leaned into the alcohol to take the edge off it because it's, it's kind of what I'd used all the way through.

And I never thought for one second. I'd, I'd come up with these rules after my first marriage had failed when I was in the Army, and then I got married, and my second marriage had failed at this point. So I'm like 30 years old, twice divorced, drinking excessively, and nearly just got a criminal record and a horrendous cocaine habit as well.

And I was just like, "Something needs to change here, and the only change it can be is me. Like the, the common denominator here is me. I can't keep blaming everybody else around me. It's, it's, it's me, right?" And then I think I'd known I'd had a problem before. There was one time in the Army before where I'd went to sought support before I deployed, and, uh, I went down to the medical officer and I'd said, "You know, look, I'm drinking a bit too much."

And the response was, "You're an Englishman. It's in your blood. You know, so it's, this is normal. I don't think there's an issue here." So I kind of came away from that, and I was like, "Well, maybe, maybe there isn't a problem with my [00:10:00] drinking early on." Like I said, a few years before. And then all this time later I came to the conclusion myself like that this is a problem.

Everyone's told me it has for years, and I didn't believe them, but now I do. So I set myself, like I thought, well, it'd be easy to stop the alcohol, you know, 'cause I didn't want-- I didn't know how bad it was for you or how addictive it was. So I thought it'd be quite easy to stop, so I tried it, and then I realized this isn't as easy as what I think, you know?

I'd set myself rules where I wouldn't drink Monday to Friday at work, drink on the weekends, and I'd try that. It just wouldn't work. The, the weekend drinking seeped into the week Then it was like, I'll have two drinks and then I'll drink a glass of water. It, uh, all of these rules that I'd set just didn't work.

And it, no matter how much sort of discipline I had to try and control the drinking, the minute I'd had one or two drinks, that all went out the window. And, and then I was, I wasn't in control of it at all. I wasn't, I wouldn't say I was dependent, and it wouldn't matter if I was. I wasn't [00:11:00] dependent, but I was heavily binge drinking.

And it, it was so normalized, you know, people would, you'd have like birthday celebrations with friends or whatever, but I was always the guy who would get absolutely mullered. And I think also, like on reflection now, now I, I haven't drank for 18 months now, but I, I think on reflection, I think I was almost everyone would compare their own drinking to me.

So as long as I was bad, their drinking was okay. And I think that was one of the purposes that, one of the, the roles I fulfilled for others. But I didn't see it at the time A- a- and that, that definitely happened

 James Morris: Yes. Yeah. No, I think that that's a common kind of phenomenon, I think, in many ways. It's, it's actually portrayed in a book, a Penguin classic called Hangover Square by Patrick Hamilton, which is about kind of drinkers in Earls Court in, I can't remember, some kind of period of the last century.

But it describes this heavy drinking network around the pubs of Earls Court, where it's got this one guy who they really [00:12:00] wouldn't let him try and moderate his drinking 'cause he was the one that everyone, you know, compared themselves against. And yeah, I think that's a really, like a quite a common situation.

And so is that kind of othering, you know, that, "Oh, I'm okay because I'm not as bad as so-and-so," as judged by lots of different things you mentioned. As long as you're doing, passing your PT or your fitness tests, then the military turns a blind eye or even encourages it. And yeah, we, we published recently a systematic review showing that, you know, many heavy drinkers use a range of different othering strategies to justify or normalize their own drinking or protect their drinking identity as a kind of positive, non-problematic thing, and use a different range of whatever's kind of most relevant to them.

So older adults who maybe drink heavily but regularly but don't maybe binge drink will go, "Well, we're not young people beating each other up." And then the young people- Yeah, yeah ... will go, "Well, we only do it once a week. We're [00:13:00] not drinking every day." So yeah, I think that's a really nice illustration of how there's so many ways in which we can kind of point to the problematic other and in ways kind of that's probably quite deliberate but also a reaction to kind of stigma or all sorts of things.

So that's a really powerful illustration. But also I think with the importance of both recognizing your individual, your... You mentioned lots of different reasons for drinking at different stages, whether it was boredom or de-stressing or switching off. So there's those sort of individual reasons, but also the structural.

You know, if you're in the, in the military and you've got nothing to do for days and there's cheap alcohol available and it's basically expected of you, obviously that's gonna drive a heavy drinking culture. But yeah, I guess many people might be quite shocked at the extent to which maybe that drinking culture was normalized or even encouraged, as you kind of suggested.

What, what... Maybe taking a step into the sort of [00:14:00] research side. I mean, we know there's, there's a fair bit of research into prevalence and problems of alcohol use and mental health within the military, particularly I think led by researchers at Liverpool, Laura Goodwin and others. 

Yeah, definitely. So Nicola Fear did, like, a longitudinal study, and they found that the rates of PTSD, probable PTSD, have increased over the years And so too has alcohol use as well within the military.

And what we've done is looked at veterans coming into specialists services, so drug and alcohol treatment services, and what they've found is that more than 53% of veterans coming into specialist services is for alcohol, whereas that's 36% for non-veterans. So it's half of veterans who are coming in for alcohol.

So alcohol use is a massive issue for veterans who are seeking support. We know that the UK Armed Forces veterans are less likely to seek support than their civilian counterparts for many different reasons. But over the past four years, there has been an increase in the number of veterans who are coming to community drug and alcohol [00:15:00] treatment services.

But at the same time, there's also been an increase in the recording of veterans, so it might not be that the problem's got worse, it might just be that we're recording it better. But wh- when they've looked at the needs of veterans who are seeking support for substance use, uh, and what they've found is that veterans have more complex needs when they do engage.

Well, well, that fits if they're less likely to seek support. Maybe they have to reach a more of a crisis point to, to reach out for support. But Laura Goodwin and colleagues, they produced a report, and what they've found is when veterans do seek support, if they're using alcohol in any way, shape, or form, um, they don't give them access to mental health support.

Chris Barnes: And this is a problem that, as I've shared, you know, myself, veterans, many veterans will use alcohol and other substances well before they actually do seek support. And so if people are being blocked from accessing support because they're using alcohol How are they ever gonna get better? Um, and, and I've done some other research [00:16:00] and, and I think one veteran put it really well when he said, "You know, if you're asking me to remain abstinent while I'm seeking support or give up the booze, it's like you're asking me to stop treading water so you can teach me to swim."

You know, it... the, the alcohol is serving a purpose even if it is to self-medicate. A- and it's not always a choice. You know, I have sort of experienced it myself when I come back from Afghanistan and there was a... I was just constantly anxious, and I would use the alcohol to alleviate the anxiety, which is great for the first drink or maybe two, but then it creates its own anxiety in and of itself, and you end up drinking because of the anxiety that you're getting from the, the booze and, you know, you end up getting absolutely mullered.

You know, a friend of mine just came round yesterday for, for tea and he looked a little bit rough. I said, "What happened, mate?" He goes, "Oh, yeah." He'd just got a new house. He had a bottle of wine. Next thing he knows, he's been to the shop and he's had two more bottles of wine. Uh, he said he ended up drinking three bottles of wine, and he, he just felt horrific the day after.

He's a veteran as well. But the, the pattern of drinking is, is... I see it a lot. Once people start, [00:17:00] they, they can't, they can't stop. But it does serve a purpose, you know, and I think it's important to understand the purpose that alcohol serves for some, some UK Armed Forces veterans. 

 James Morris: Yeah. That's really useful. And yeah, I... and we also know it's a broader picture as well as this really long-running historical issue of mental health services not working with people until they address their drinking and often vice versa. And yeah, it's just, you know... I know there's lots of reports been written, but yeah, the progress has been really limited.

But yeah- Yeah ... obviously it's a bit of a scandal in a way because we just... we all know how fundamentally embedded the two issues are. Certainly when we look at more severe problems, the prevalence or coexistence of mental health issues, particularly anxiety and depression, is just so high. But I think even in lower level alcohol problems, there's just such a strong link as well.

And yeah, there's this kind of... obviously there's drinking motives which are more about, you know, there's kind of almost [00:18:00] two sides of it. There's the sort of- Drinking to drown out negative emotions, anxiety or depression type symptoms or experiences. And then there's also the pursuit of upping or hedonism or the buzz or whatever.

I sort of feel they're kind of often two sides of the, the same coin. You know, you want the upping and the escapism if your natural state is not a comfortable one anyway because you're dealing with PTSD or you have a anxiety disorder for whatever reasons. So yeah, it's just, it's great that we're getting more and more kind of recognition and evidence around this issue, but it's an issue that we're trying to kind of make progress on many years down the line.

Chris Barnes: I just wanted to say there that, you know, we've mentioned about PTSD there, and although the prevalence of it has increased in UK Armed Forces veterans in recent years, it is a small but still significant minority of veterans who suffer with PTSD.  Um, if we actually look at the numbers of those who are coming to drug and alcohol treatment services, the majority of those will not have deployed.

And so it's [00:19:00] for other reasons beyond, you know, trauma. People may be using alcohol in the armed forces, and I don't know very many people who join the army because their upbringing's great. There could be other factors before the military that maybe make people more susceptible to alcohol use later on.

I just think that's really important to put that in there 'cause, you know, it's, it's really important to talk about PTSD, but just to not make a bigger problem than what it is, even though it is horrendous for those who are affected by it. 

 James Morris: Yeah, I think that's important as well 'cause, yeah, in the sort of addiction debates, you know, sometimes they get kind of oversimplified into camps.

People who want to, you know, the Gabor Mate sort of band on everything's trauma, you know, they see it through that lens. Obviously, it plays a huge role in addiction, and particularly the more severe cases, I think. But yeah, certainly those social norms, peer groups, you know, drinking for hedonistic or u- upping reasons, and often many, many motives coexisting at the same time in one person, as I think you kind of demonstrated in some ways too.

So, um, yeah, [00:20:00] maybe if we can go back to, um, where your second marriage had broken down and if we pick up where you were and take us up to more current time. 

Chris Barnes: Yeah. So at the time then, like all of these things had been going wrong in my life for a number of years. Everything in some way, shape, or form was linked to alcohol use and then, you know, the cocaine afterwards.

And I was so ashamed that I didn't want to tell anyone that I was struggling because I'd been this guy who could... who was fine with the alcohol use. I'd wake up and- I may have behaved in a pretty bad way the night before, but I'd just be- pretend that I knew what I was doing and that I chose to behave that way.

So there was a lot of ego involved in it, and I was scared to... Yeah, the minute I, if I said there was a problem, I'd have to do something about it. And so I delayed and I delayed admitting it to myself. Um, and then in the end, I was like, "I'm gonna have to, uh, you know, I'm gonna have to do something about this."

And the, the only thing that could work for me, because of all the, the lack of discipline that I had, um, you know, and I don't put this on anybody else, but for me personally, it was the, the minute I had a few drinks, any [00:21:00] great intentions I had about only having a drink or two would go out of the window.

So I would say that I struggled to hold myself to account, you know, like after I'd had a few drinks. Um, but I decided that abstinence was the way to go, and I struggled with that. Like I really struggled with that. I'd try and set myself probably, I think like the first time probably I lasted a week. But one of the things that hammered it home was my partner, my wife now, we've been together for eight, for eight years, but her dad, um, he, he was admitted to hospital with alcohol-related liver disease.

And I got to see firsthand the impact that alcohol has on somebody's body. And I knew it kills people. I knew it was bad for people, but I've never seen it in somebody that I know. So anyway, I saw how things deteriorated towards the end of his life and how much almost regret he had because he hadn't stopped drinking sooner.

And for me, it was a bit of an eye-opener to like, "This, this could be you. You know, this could be you." And I'd supported veterans as well who'd [00:22:00] left the army, and they'd ended up drinking more than they'd wanted to, become dependent, and it, it absolutely destroyed their body. You know, like they'd lost weight, uh, their, you know, their liver was damaged And it was all going on around me.

I could finally see it for the first time and acknowledge that, right, okay, I can do something about this. So anyway, I decided to go abstinent, but I, I just couldn't do it. It was too hard. Um, but the thing that changed it for me was I had been struggling with constant anxiety since Afghanistan over a decade, and I was offered a place to go on a psychedelic clinical trial in Peru, and there I took some ayahuasca, and that, that allowed me to really dig down deep and understand what was driving me to drink in the first place.

So there's a lot... You know, it pretty much boils down to the fact that I hated myself, and I was doing anything I possibly could to stop me feeling that resentment to, to me. And so [00:23:00] once I realized that, and through the ayahuasca I was able to process that, and it's still... You know, it's not a magic bullet.

I'm still working on that. But I'm the best I've ever been in my whole life since going on that retreat. I just didn't wanna drink, and that's the difference. Before it felt like I was choosing abstinence, and therefore it was a hard choice to make because I was missing out. I couldn't go to social functions.

And then all of a sudden I've drank ayahuasca and the alcohol use had gone. So I stopped drinking. I did have a lapse about six months after stopping, but it was the longest I've never not drank alcohol. So anyway, my friend who was on retreat with me just said, like, you know, to put it down to a mistake Yeah, don't keep drinking because in the past it had failed.

What's the point in doing this, you know? Mm. Drink more and you almost catch up the units that you remained abstinence for in a weird way. 

Anyway, it's been 18 months now where I just haven't had a drink, and I, I got married. I sound like I like wedding cake. Uh, we got married, I got married on the 6th of June to my partner I've been with for eight years, and I didn't drink any alcohol at the wedding.

It didn't feel like I was missing out. And even my wife now would say that I'm a lot more present when I'm not drinking booze. I can remember things easier. You know, it's just life is just... Life's hard anyway, why make it harder by drinking booze if it affects you that bad? So anyway, it's, yeah, 18 months with no alcohol at the minute and, and I don't feel like I miss it, which is really weird.

But that's all to do with taking part of that clinical trial in Peru through Heroic Hearts. You know, it's amazing what they've done, and I think the more I read about psychedelic research, there is a place for it. It's not for everybody, but I think it really does show some promise in maybe helping to tackle some of the issues some people face with, you know, alcohol and other drug use, and mental health as well.

 James Morris: Yeah. No, I think that's so powerful, and yeah, I think there's so much in there that, that's, that's, that's such an important part of the message about kind of [00:25:00] understanding alcohol problems and recovery. Even if one person's journey and recovery experience is their own and can't be kind of applied to everybody in some ways, there's still some really powerful, I think, important kind of truths within that.

And I think for one, one is that, you know, like, oh, well, you, you said you had a lapse and yeah, there is this idea that having a lapse can trigger a lot of self-critical feelings and then in turn, you know, a huge part of alcohol recovery is about accepting that those things can happen and to call it a lapse or better still maybe a learning opportunity.

And, but yeah, crucially that identification of that you feel now you don't need alcohol to serve that role that it kind of used to do, but also paradoxically made, made things much worse. So yeah, I also agree that life is difficult and acknowledging that's an important part of my philosophy. Um, but yeah, certainly we, [00:26:00] we mustn't be judgmental about using drugs or alcohol as a form of coping if it's escapism or in that moment shutting down anxious feelings or whatever.

And the other thing I really identified with, uh, you said earlier was when your GP, uh, had told you... Oh, what did they say? Yeah, you're an Englishman. 

Chris Barnes: And it's in your blood, yeah. 

 James Morris: Yeah, because I had, um, similar experience when I developed alcoholic gastritis from heavy drinking as an undergraduate when I was about 19 or 20.

And yeah, I went to a GP on the university campus And said, "You know, I've got these symptoms. I think it might be because I'm drinking too much." And he just said, "Well, you know what you need to do then." Uh, and that and that was it. So yeah, it wasn't particularly helpful either. Yeah, so that's fantastic. And yeah, I agree with the, you know, I really wanna have a guest on who can kind of come and talk about the latest in the role of psychedelics or possibly medications for alcohol use disorder treatment in general.

But yeah, I [00:27:00] do think going back to that point about everyone's recovery journey is gonna be a bit different, but they clearly do have a, a useful role for some people. So yeah, I, I think that's, again, also such an important point about that, uh, not feeling that you kind of need it or miss it anymore, and that once you have a few drinks...

You know, we had Roy Baumeister on here, and he was really kind of hammering home that point about why cutting down alcohol use can be difficult for so many people because essentially that's paradoxically part of the effectiveness or appeal of the drug is that it switches off the parts of the brain that are responsible for self-control thoughts or whatever.

And yeah, I think many people who do stop say, "I can't, can't believe I had these thoughts that were so much along the lines of, well, I had to have alcohol to have fun or to be the person that I wanted to be." And, and again, I remember thinking, "I could never not drink," you know, "I could never be happy or the person that I am if I wasn't drinking."

And I remember sort of believing that so [00:28:00] strongly, but it's only when you kind of stop doing something that you actually realize how kind of deceptive or false some of those beliefs can be really. 

Chris Barnes: . I think, I think that's... Well, I've been thinking, you know, we've... There's been a few... We just got married.

There was lots... You know, there was alcohol at the wedding for people. But more people are turning to not drinking at all, where I've seen that, you know- Mm-hmm ... which is, we would like the spritz table and, you know, a quarter of them were non-alcohol. But for me, you just mentioned there about the different parts of the brain and then feeling like you have to have alcohol.

I remember that. I remember that feeling clearly, but I don't feel that anymore. And I think that's probably one of the biggest fears. Like, I used to love single malt whiskey, right? And there was a certain type of single malt whiskey that I actually enjoyed. The other stuff I'd just drink for the sake of it.

I have a bottle in the house, and I look at it and I go, "Oh, could I, could I possibly have one whiskey and everything would be okay?" And the answer is, I don't know. And because I don't know, I won't do it. Mm. I don't think I'll ever know

because it's so easy just to go back. I've done it 1,000 times where I've tried [00:29:00] not... Where, where I haven't drank. But then I just think, "Oh, it'd be nice." Yeah, we even did a distillery tour where we went to the distillery where they make it. I could smell it. I could smell everything. And I was like- It's just, "Ah, I can't risk it," you know?

Yeah. But I just don't, I don't want it, but I would like that one whiskey, that flavor. It's really, you know, it's... I won't mention it, but I miss the taste of it. 

 James Morris: Mm-hmm, 

Chris Barnes: mm-hmm. But I don't miss all the carnage that could possibly come with it, you know? So yeah, I don't think I'll ever, I don't think there'll ever be an occasion special enough to want to drink.

If I haven't done it at a wedding, what else is there, right? You know, so it's But it's interesting. 

 James Morris: um... I'm sure many people would be worried and thinking like, "Just don't do it. It's not worth it," and that's obviously a valid concern. But yeah, I guess a lot of the, the enjoyment, there's that question about classical conditioning.

I never liked the taste of beer, but I liked the effect it had, and then one day I found myself, oh, I actually really like the [00:30:00] taste of beer. And you know- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... it's just, it's that classical conditioning effect. So you know, I'm not saying it's not a good whiskey, but yeah, that's in some ways probably just sort of a belief that forms because of conditioning over time.

Yeah. Not, not to hopefully gaslight you at all in any way. 

Chris Barnes: No, no, not at all. Well, 'cause, uh, since doing the ayahuasca, we never used to be able to have alcohol in the house either, which my missus would work away, I'd be on my own. I'd drink a lot, and I'd hide the bottles in the bottom of the bin so she wouldn't see them.

Um, and since doing the ayahuasca, we've got so much alcohol in the house, and I wouldn't do it. You know, I do, uh, think about the whiskey 'cause I do actually miss the taste of it. But the rest of it I'm... Nice to be able to have it in the house and know that I'm just not gonna lose control. 

Chris Barnes: And I, I think that's what I've managed to get back from going to Peru and doing the ayahuasca, and it's almost like reset everything.

So why would I wanna damage that now when everything's just- Yeah ... all set the way it is? But before the ayahuasca, there's no way that we could have alcohol in, in the house because I'd have one drink... You [00:31:00] have one drink, and then you literally hit it as hard as you can. And I think it can be quite hard to unlearn those ways of drinking when you've done it for so long in the Army.

Binge drinking's huge. Binge drinking seems to be the main type of drinking that's affecting UK armed forces veterans. And I think a lot of the clinical trials that are underway at the minute with psychedelics, they're showing a lot of promise. 

 James Morris: And, um, and maybe sort of just wrapping up, obviously you're involved in some really important stigma projects, but you know, I'm certainly very interested in stigma around alcohol problems specifically.

You know, it's, it's such a normalized thing to drink in many different types of ways until, again, as we said earlier, until you kind of trigger a kind of stereotype of not being in control or not meeting responsibilities or sleeping on a park bench. So there's lots of acceptable forms of problem and heavy drinking as long as you're not conforming with those extreme stereotypes often.

So yeah, I think we really need to, you know, share more stories that show that [00:32:00] alcohol problems exist in many forms, and like you say, you really brought it home seeing your partner's father with liver cirrhosis because so many people are having or experiencing liver damage without realizing it because it doesn't show any signs or symptoms until the late stage.

So yeah, I think increasing that awareness of drinking across the spectrum and the risks and harms is so important as well as really tackling the stigma. So yeah, if you've got any final ideas or comments or anything you wanna highlight 

Chris Barnes: I think the project that we're working on at the minute, that National Challenging Stigma Indicators pilot, um, they've just produced some training.

You know, you've been involved in the work massively, and thank you. But we've produced a 30-minute online training package just to provide insight into, you know, drug and alcohol use and how it affects people. And one of the main elements to that has been some lived experience videos from some very brave people who've shared their story.

But when you sit and you actually listen to people's stories, there isn't a [00:33:00] type of person that's affected by drug or alcohol use. It can be anyone. And we're going through to the professionals that have taken part in this training that we've delivered, and we've just started some interviews just to ask them, "Well, you know, what's worked for you?

What, what, what do you think? What can be improved? What, what can we do?" And the training's landed really well. And, and one of the reasons for that is nearly every single professional that we've spoken to knows somebody personally who's affected by drug or alcohol use. So since COVID, alcohol use and drug use and related harms have increased.

But on a positive note too, that every cloud has a silver lining, more people now have personal experience of those who are affected. Mm-hmm. And so the problem's a lot harder to weather. You know, it isn't that person on the park bench. These are people who... You know, nurses who struggle, pharmacists who've ended up using medications.

These are people from all sorts of different walks of life who are all affected by the same issues. And so by working together and not othering, there is [00:34:00] an opportunity here to actually have a decent stab at challenging and reducing stigma. 

But the more people you speak to... I think, I think my, my advice to people, that sounds a bit, what's the word...

I, I think if, if you get the opportunity to speak to somebody who's affected by drug or alcohol use, give them the space to speak and listen. And what you'll find is it becomes almost impossible to not empathize with that person when you understand why, how they've got to where they are, and the determinants of their substance use.

Yeah. It just... There's a lot of work to do, but the more people we can bring on board for it, the better, so. Yeah. Yeah, we'll keep, we'll keep doing that. 

 James Morris: Absolutely. Yeah. That's a great, great note to end on. Um, Chris, thank you so much for coming on and candidly sharing your experience. Think you've been fantastic to work with, and it's just, yeah, I think you're a real testament to the importance of not seeing these problems as a way of writing people off.

So thank you so much. 

Chris Barnes: No worries. Thank you very much