{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.16,"body":"Thanks so much for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.16,"body":"joining me Wendy, this is a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2.16,"endTime":5.31,"body":"subject that I'm really"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2.16,"endTime":5.31,"body":"interested in, I'm sure lots of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":5.31,"endTime":8.49,"body":"listeners will be as well. But"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":5.31,"endTime":8.49,"body":"could you tell me in a general"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":8.49,"endTime":12.42,"body":"sense about how you see"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":8.49,"endTime":12.42,"body":"spirituality in the context of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":12.42,"endTime":13.08,"body":"recovery?"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":13.18,"endTime":15.76,"body":"Sure, James,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":13.18,"endTime":15.76,"body":"thanks for having me on. I think"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":15.76,"endTime":19.78,"body":"there's two ways of looking at"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":15.76,"endTime":19.78,"body":"that question. There's a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":19.78,"endTime":23.89,"body":"historical way of looking at it"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":19.78,"endTime":23.89,"body":"thinking about the history of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":23.92,"endTime":27.43,"body":"Alcoholics Anonymous, which"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":23.92,"endTime":27.43,"body":"really is the the organisation"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":27.43,"endTime":31.57,"body":"that introduced the idea of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":27.43,"endTime":31.57,"body":"spirituality into recovery. But"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":31.57,"endTime":35.38,"body":"there's also looking at the the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":31.57,"endTime":35.38,"body":"kind of experience of addiction"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":35.41,"endTime":40.81,"body":"itself, and how people"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":35.41,"endTime":40.81,"body":"experience that as a state of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":40.81,"endTime":45.4,"body":"powerlessness over a substance"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":40.81,"endTime":45.4,"body":"and how the search for a higher"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":45.4,"endTime":50.29,"body":"power to enable them to recover"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":45.4,"endTime":50.29,"body":"is is a part of that. I mean, a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":50.32,"endTime":53.89,"body":"is Alcoholics Anonymous, there"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":50.32,"endTime":53.89,"body":"are so many myths about it on"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":53.89,"endTime":57.25,"body":"there, and there's so much"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":53.89,"endTime":57.25,"body":"speculation about it, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":57.25,"endTime":60.22,"body":"my view is always that probably"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":57.25,"endTime":60.22,"body":"no two meetings are the same."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":60.28,"endTime":64.39,"body":"And I've even attended, you"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":60.28,"endTime":64.39,"body":"know, non religious or secular a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":64.39,"endTime":67.66,"body":"meeting. So yeah, just tell us a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":64.39,"endTime":67.66,"body":"bit more about AI and"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":67.66,"endTime":72.97,"body":"spirituality within that. So he"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":67.66,"endTime":72.97,"body":"started in the in the 1930s, in"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":73.0,"endTime":78.37,"body":"post prohibition, America, so"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":73.0,"endTime":78.37,"body":"its language is very much linked"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":78.37,"endTime":83.05,"body":"to that context. And the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":78.37,"endTime":83.05,"body":"experience of the early members"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":83.05,"endTime":87.79,"body":"of ACA was that they felt that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":83.05,"endTime":87.79,"body":"they didn't have the willpower"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":87.79,"endTime":92.77,"body":"themselves to to establish"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":87.79,"endTime":92.77,"body":"abstinence and recovery from"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":92.8,"endTime":96.4,"body":"addiction. So therefore, a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":92.8,"endTime":96.4,"body":"higher power would be be"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":96.4,"endTime":100.09,"body":"necessary. And for that, for"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":96.4,"endTime":100.09,"body":"them at that time, it was"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":100.09,"endTime":103.51,"body":"obvious that that higher power"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":100.09,"endTime":103.51,"body":"would be, you know, the God of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":103.51,"endTime":107.08,"body":"Christianity, the Protestant"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":103.51,"endTime":107.08,"body":"context in which they lived and"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":107.08,"endTime":110.89,"body":"thoughts very much kind of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":107.08,"endTime":110.89,"body":"dictated that. So that's, that's"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":110.89,"endTime":115.33,"body":"the heritage of, of Alcoholics"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":110.89,"endTime":115.33,"body":"Anonymous, but what I find"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":115.33,"endTime":118.99,"body":"interesting in my research is to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":115.33,"endTime":118.99,"body":"explore ways in which"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":118.99,"endTime":123.67,"body":"contemporary members of a who"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":118.99,"endTime":123.67,"body":"are not in that, you know, 1930s"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":123.67,"endTime":129.19,"body":"American context interpret that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":123.67,"endTime":129.19,"body":"that idea, we're in a society"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":129.19,"endTime":133.57,"body":"that has, to a certain extent"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":129.19,"endTime":133.57,"body":"become secularised. So what does"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":133.57,"endTime":137.98,"body":"that concept of higher power"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":133.57,"endTime":137.98,"body":"mean to contemporary members of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":137.98,"endTime":141.82,"body":"AA? Do they want that concept?"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":137.98,"endTime":141.82,"body":"Do they interpret it in"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":141.82,"endTime":145.51,"body":"different ways? What influences"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":141.82,"endTime":145.51,"body":"their concept of higher power?"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":145.57,"endTime":149.08,"body":"And I've discovered there's huge"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":145.57,"endTime":149.08,"body":"diversity. So what you say about"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":149.08,"endTime":152.44,"body":"no team meetings are ever the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":149.08,"endTime":152.44,"body":"same? I think that's true, but"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":152.44,"endTime":156.19,"body":"also no two concepts of higher"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":152.44,"endTime":156.19,"body":"power are ever the same."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":156.22,"endTime":158.62,"body":"Yeah, super"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":156.22,"endTime":158.62,"body":"interesting, because there's a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":158.62,"endTime":162.91,"body":"few sayings that are perhaps not"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":158.62,"endTime":162.91,"body":"part of the 12 steps, or the big"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":162.91,"endTime":166.0,"body":"book that are very commonly"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":162.91,"endTime":166.0,"body":"used. And I think, I don't know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":166.03,"endTime":169.78,"body":"does the idea of you interpret"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":166.03,"endTime":169.78,"body":"the higher power in your own way"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":169.81,"endTime":172.93,"body":"is a really important thing, I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":169.81,"endTime":172.93,"body":"think, particularly in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":172.93,"endTime":176.05,"body":"contemporary terms, is that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":172.93,"endTime":176.05,"body":"right? And if so, what are the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":176.05,"endTime":177.7,"body":"common ways that people tend to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":176.05,"endTime":177.7,"body":"do"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":177.87,"endTime":179.97,"body":"yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":177.87,"endTime":179.97,"body":"that that that is certainly"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":179.97,"endTime":185.58,"body":"central, I think people have a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":179.97,"endTime":185.58,"body":"misconception that AA tells"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":185.58,"endTime":188.7,"body":"people they must believe in"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":185.58,"endTime":188.7,"body":"this, that and the other but in"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":188.7,"endTime":192.66,"body":"fact, people are invited to kind"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":188.7,"endTime":192.66,"body":"of engage with that concept of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":192.66,"endTime":197.91,"body":"higher power in in ways that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":192.66,"endTime":197.91,"body":"suit them. So the vast majority"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":197.91,"endTime":200.55,"body":"of the people that I've"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":197.91,"endTime":200.55,"body":"interviewed in my research"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":200.58,"endTime":204.27,"body":"reject the idea that there's"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":200.58,"endTime":204.27,"body":"anything religious about their"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":204.27,"endTime":209.22,"body":"concept of higher power for many"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":204.27,"endTime":209.22,"body":"of them it is simply the group"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":209.25,"endTime":214.14,"body":"and the power of friendship that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":209.25,"endTime":214.14,"body":"they experience in a meetings so"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":214.17,"endTime":216.66,"body":"there's there's this phrase"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":214.17,"endTime":216.66,"body":"that's often used; 'group of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":216.66,"endTime":221.76,"body":"drunks' (GOD), so it's the idea"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":216.66,"endTime":221.76,"body":"of higher power is not a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":221.79,"endTime":226.29,"body":"supernatural being but it's it's"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":221.79,"endTime":226.29,"body":"the power of identification."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":226.29,"endTime":230.22,"body":"It's the power of mutual support"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":226.29,"endTime":230.22,"body":"and encouragement, it's that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":230.22,"endTime":235.35,"body":"experience of coming out of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":230.22,"endTime":235.35,"body":"shame and denial, and being able"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":235.35,"endTime":239.61,"body":"to live live a new life. So the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":235.35,"endTime":239.61,"body":"idea of higher power, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":239.61,"endTime":243.69,"body":"is interpreted in so many ways."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":239.61,"endTime":243.69,"body":"For example, people often use"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":243.69,"endTime":248.76,"body":"the the kind of metaphor it's"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":243.69,"endTime":248.76,"body":"like the force in Star Wars or"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":248.76,"endTime":252.9,"body":"people want to identify nature"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":248.76,"endTime":252.9,"body":"as their higher power as a kind"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":252.9,"endTime":257.85,"body":"of source of meditation or"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":252.9,"endTime":257.85,"body":"seeing themselves in a in a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":257.88,"endTime":262.98,"body":"wider context as part of the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":257.88,"endTime":262.98,"body":"universe all kinds of different"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":262.98,"endTime":267.96,"body":"ideas. One participant talked"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":262.98,"endTime":267.96,"body":"about her cat as her higher"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":267.96,"endTime":272.34,"body":"power and I think it's I'm quite"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":267.96,"endTime":272.34,"body":"interested in how how easily we"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":272.34,"endTime":275.4,"body":"stigmatise people for their"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":272.34,"endTime":275.4,"body":"beliefs, but for that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":275.43,"endTime":279.24,"body":"participant, she was casting"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":275.43,"endTime":279.24,"body":"around for an idea of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":279.3,"endTime":283.92,"body":"unconditional love in her life."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":279.3,"endTime":283.92,"body":"And therefore she you know, she"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":283.92,"endTime":287.97,"body":"focused naturally on on the one"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":283.92,"endTime":287.97,"body":"sentient being in her life that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":287.97,"endTime":292.71,"body":"offered her unconditional love,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":287.97,"endTime":292.71,"body":"and that made a great difference"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":292.71,"endTime":296.64,"body":"to her. We also found that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":292.71,"endTime":296.64,"body":"people's ideas of higher power"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":296.64,"endTime":302.61,"body":"changed over time during their"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":296.64,"endTime":302.61,"body":"recovery. So they might have a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":302.61,"endTime":308.31,"body":"very kind of definite idea of a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":302.61,"endTime":308.31,"body":"higher power that was enabling"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":308.31,"endTime":312.36,"body":"them to stay to stay sober in"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":308.31,"endTime":312.36,"body":"the early days. And that might"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":312.39,"endTime":318.33,"body":"change over time become less"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":312.39,"endTime":318.33,"body":"personal, more abstract, over"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":318.33,"endTime":323.16,"body":"years in recovery. But I think"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":318.33,"endTime":323.16,"body":"what's most interesting is that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":323.16,"endTime":326.61,"body":"people do very, very different"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":323.16,"endTime":326.61,"body":"things with this idea. So there"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":326.61,"endTime":330.66,"body":"is no, you must believe this, or"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":326.61,"endTime":330.66,"body":"you must believe that the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":330.96,"endTime":334.68,"body":"environment is kind of a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":330.96,"endTime":334.68,"body":"workshop in which people work"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":334.68,"endTime":337.89,"body":"out their own idea of a higher"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":334.68,"endTime":337.89,"body":"power. Everybody that we"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":337.89,"endTime":341.73,"body":"interviewed, certainly said"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":337.89,"endTime":341.73,"body":"that, that a higher power was"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":341.73,"endTime":346.59,"body":"essential to their recovery and"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":341.73,"endTime":346.59,"body":"their experience of of addiction"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":346.59,"endTime":350.91,"body":"was an experience of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":346.59,"endTime":350.91,"body":"powerlessness. So exerting their"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":350.91,"endTime":356.31,"body":"willpower again and again, over"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":350.91,"endTime":356.31,"body":"over the substance, and failing"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":356.31,"endTime":360.24,"body":"to get any purchase on it. So it"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":356.31,"endTime":360.24,"body":"was an experience of despair of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":360.24,"endTime":364.23,"body":"personal willpower, and the need"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":360.24,"endTime":364.23,"body":"for a higher power. But for some"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":364.23,"endTime":367.77,"body":"people, that higher power was"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":364.23,"endTime":367.77,"body":"simply a better version of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":367.77,"endTime":371.52,"body":"themselves, it wasn't"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":367.77,"endTime":371.52,"body":"necessarily something outside of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":371.52,"endTime":375.78,"body":"themselves, it was just drawing"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":371.52,"endTime":375.78,"body":"on a on a power that they felt"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":375.81,"endTime":377.67,"body":"was untapped within them."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":378.06,"endTime":381.72,"body":"So interesting."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":378.06,"endTime":381.72,"body":"And, you know, I really like the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":381.72,"endTime":385.74,"body":"example of the cat, because I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":381.72,"endTime":385.74,"body":"think in many ways, for me, it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":385.74,"endTime":389.85,"body":"the idea of social connection"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":385.74,"endTime":389.85,"body":"and meaning, again, in in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":389.85,"endTime":393.33,"body":"whichever way you kind of want"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":389.85,"endTime":393.33,"body":"to interpret that, but you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":393.33,"endTime":397.35,"body":"I think that to me, is my sort"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":393.33,"endTime":397.35,"body":"of understanding of spirituality"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":397.35,"endTime":400.23,"body":"is that there being something"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":397.35,"endTime":400.23,"body":"more than than science and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":400.23,"endTime":404.76,"body":"physics that that As humans, we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":400.23,"endTime":404.76,"body":"are in need of something more"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":404.76,"endTime":407.55,"body":"than just being able to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":404.76,"endTime":407.55,"body":"understand everything in terms"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":407.55,"endTime":410.76,"body":"of mathematics, or the rules of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":407.55,"endTime":410.76,"body":"scientific positivism, or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":410.76,"endTime":414.15,"body":"whatever, that those, those"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":410.76,"endTime":414.15,"body":"social connections and meanings"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":414.18,"endTime":418.38,"body":"are so important. And that's, I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":414.18,"endTime":418.38,"body":"think, in this broader recovery"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":418.44,"endTime":422.61,"body":"literature, that this whole kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":418.44,"endTime":422.61,"body":"of process of social identity"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":422.61,"endTime":426.42,"body":"change, you know, removing"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":422.61,"endTime":426.42,"body":"yourself from from situations"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":426.48,"endTime":431.97,"body":"and appears where drug or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":426.48,"endTime":431.97,"body":"alcohol use is expected to one"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":431.97,"endTime":435.24,"body":"in which you know, it's it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":431.97,"endTime":435.24,"body":"supported and encouraged not to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":435.24,"endTime":439.83,"body":"use or drink. And with that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":435.24,"endTime":439.83,"body":"comes a whole set of different"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":439.83,"endTime":443.7,"body":"meanings and social connections."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":439.83,"endTime":443.7,"body":"And that's in a way the sort of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":443.7,"endTime":448.68,"body":"motivation but the idea of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":443.7,"endTime":448.68,"body":"spirituality as a way of finding"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":448.86,"endTime":452.25,"body":"meaning in your life, however"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":448.86,"endTime":452.25,"body":"you interpret that or how that's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":452.25,"endTime":454.32,"body":"going to work for you. Is that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":452.25,"endTime":454.32,"body":"on the right lines, would you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":454.32,"endTime":457.71,"body":"say from Sure? I mean, you're"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":454.32,"endTime":457.71,"body":"talking about what what"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":457.71,"endTime":461.4,"body":"clinicians would call adaptive"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":457.71,"endTime":461.4,"body":"social networks, aren't you?"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":461.39,"endTime":463.67,"body":"Yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":461.39,"endTime":463.67,"body":"you can talk about it in that in"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":463.67,"endTime":467.57,"body":"that clinical way, or members of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":463.67,"endTime":467.57,"body":"12 step fellowships would talk"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":467.57,"endTime":471.92,"body":"about it in terms of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":467.57,"endTime":471.92,"body":"identification, spirituality,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":471.92,"endTime":475.79,"body":"finding meaning for sure."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":471.92,"endTime":475.79,"body":"They're just two different ways"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":475.79,"endTime":480.59,"body":"of talking about the same"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":475.79,"endTime":480.59,"body":"experience. JOHN Kelly, the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":480.83,"endTime":485.6,"body":"Harvard academic who who studies"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":480.83,"endTime":485.6,"body":"the mechanisms of behavioural"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":485.6,"endTime":490.46,"body":"change in in Alcoholics"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":485.6,"endTime":490.46,"body":"Anonymous notes that it's it's"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":490.46,"endTime":495.62,"body":"people taking responsibility,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":490.46,"endTime":495.62,"body":"getting involved in, in service"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":495.68,"endTime":499.67,"body":"becoming mean meaningful members"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":495.68,"endTime":499.67,"body":"of a community where often they"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":499.67,"endTime":503.36,"body":"have been ostracised from many"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":499.67,"endTime":503.36,"body":"other communities on the basis"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":503.36,"endTime":507.59,"body":"of, you know, their addictive"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":503.36,"endTime":507.59,"body":"behaviours, they find a place"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":507.59,"endTime":511.58,"body":"they find belonging, they find"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":507.59,"endTime":511.58,"body":"meaning, and they take"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":511.58,"endTime":517.31,"body":"responsibility, they discover"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":511.58,"endTime":517.31,"body":"that the awful things that they"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":517.31,"endTime":520.85,"body":"feel that they have done are the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":517.31,"endTime":520.85,"body":"very things that enable them to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":520.85,"endTime":525.05,"body":"connect with others in a non non"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":520.85,"endTime":525.05,"body":"judgmental way. And as a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":525.05,"endTime":528.89,"body":"community members of AARP are"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":525.05,"endTime":528.89,"body":"able to help each other to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":528.89,"endTime":534.41,"body":"address shame and guilt and to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":528.89,"endTime":534.41,"body":"rebuild lives as a consequence."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":534.41,"endTime":537.89,"body":"And it's, it's certainly"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":534.41,"endTime":537.89,"body":"possible to call that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":537.89,"endTime":541.91,"body":"spirituality it's, it's possible"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":537.89,"endTime":541.91,"body":"to use clinical language as"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":541.91,"endTime":545.96,"body":"well. But it's, it's the same,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":541.91,"endTime":545.96,"body":"the same phenomenon that's,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":545.99,"endTime":546.89,"body":"that's happening,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":546.89,"endTime":548.75,"body":"As you know, I'm"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":546.89,"endTime":548.75,"body":"always kind of talking about the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":548.75,"endTime":553.19,"body":"paradigms of alcohol problems."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":548.75,"endTime":553.19,"body":"And I think because of the that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":553.19,"endTime":556.76,"body":"history, and particularly in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":553.19,"endTime":556.76,"body":"terms of the disease model, that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":556.76,"endTime":560.0,"body":"that's a way that a lot of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":556.76,"endTime":560.0,"body":"people make sense of alcohol"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":560.0,"endTime":564.95,"body":"problems is literally it's sort"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":560.0,"endTime":564.95,"body":"of embodiment as a disease. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":564.98,"endTime":568.34,"body":"yeah, I suppose it's the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":564.98,"endTime":568.34,"body":"language and understandings that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":568.34,"endTime":571.97,"body":"people have or make sense of or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":568.34,"endTime":571.97,"body":"drawn to, and they're different"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":571.97,"endTime":575.54,"body":"experiences may mean that often"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":571.97,"endTime":575.54,"body":"people are talking about the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":575.54,"endTime":578.27,"body":"same thing but in very different"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":575.54,"endTime":578.27,"body":"ways. So yeah, I'm always trying"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":578.27,"endTime":581.99,"body":"to reflect on on my own perhaps"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":578.27,"endTime":581.99,"body":"clinical or more public health"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":582.35,"endTime":586.22,"body":"lens in which I see see things."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":582.35,"endTime":586.22,"body":"Can you talk a bit more about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":586.22,"endTime":589.67,"body":"that then in terms of the way"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":586.22,"endTime":589.67,"body":"things like disease or other"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":589.67,"endTime":593.93,"body":"aspects of of a or spirituality"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":589.67,"endTime":593.93,"body":"are interpreted?"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":593.99,"endTime":597.29,"body":"Yeah, sure. So"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":593.99,"endTime":597.29,"body":"I don't think that the the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":597.29,"endTime":601.22,"body":"members of a that I've spoken to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":597.29,"endTime":601.22,"body":"although they talk about what"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":601.22,"endTime":604.34,"body":"they've experienced in addiction"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":601.22,"endTime":604.34,"body":"as an illness, most of the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":604.34,"endTime":607.82,"body":"people that we've spoken to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":604.34,"endTime":607.82,"body":"wouldn't necessarily mean that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":607.82,"endTime":611.39,"body":"in, in clinical terms as a brain"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":607.82,"endTime":611.39,"body":"disease, the kinds of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":611.39,"endTime":616.46,"body":"discussions that are had in some"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":611.39,"endTime":616.46,"body":"public health environments, what"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":616.46,"endTime":620.27,"body":"they mean is they they"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":616.46,"endTime":620.27,"body":"experienced it as something they"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":620.27,"endTime":623.75,"body":"literally couldn't help. And I"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":620.27,"endTime":623.75,"body":"think that's really important"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":623.81,"endTime":627.35,"body":"that they're not talking in"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":623.81,"endTime":627.35,"body":"clinical terms, they're not"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":627.35,"endTime":632.57,"body":"entering a debate about whether"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":627.35,"endTime":632.57,"body":"their condition is technically a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":632.57,"endTime":636.95,"body":"disease or not, they're talking"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":632.57,"endTime":636.95,"body":"about a first person experience"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":636.95,"endTime":640.73,"body":"of being wholly unable, you"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":636.95,"endTime":640.73,"body":"know, wanting very much to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":640.73,"endTime":644.87,"body":"behave differently, but being"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":640.73,"endTime":644.87,"body":"wholly unable to do that. And"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":644.87,"endTime":648.8,"body":"then when they join a community,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":644.87,"endTime":648.8,"body":"which which uses that language"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":648.83,"endTime":655.34,"body":"of illness, that that's a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":648.83,"endTime":655.34,"body":"powerful way to overcome shame."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":655.46,"endTime":659.48,"body":"And people realise that that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":655.46,"endTime":659.48,"body":"what was what was going on, you"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":659.48,"endTime":662.9,"body":"know, they were powerless over"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":659.48,"endTime":662.9,"body":"that. That doesn't mean they"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":662.9,"endTime":666.59,"body":"can't become accountable for it."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":662.9,"endTime":666.59,"body":"And of course, the 12 step"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":666.59,"endTime":669.74,"body":"programme of Alcoholics"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":666.59,"endTime":669.74,"body":"Anonymous is all about becoming"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":669.74,"endTime":673.49,"body":"accountable. But it's, it's a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":669.74,"endTime":673.49,"body":"very powerful way of dealing"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":673.49,"endTime":677.39,"body":"with shame and shame. Shame is a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":673.49,"endTime":677.39,"body":"dangerous thing in addiction,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":677.39,"endTime":681.02,"body":"because, you know, members of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":677.39,"endTime":681.02,"body":"Alcoholics Anonymous will say,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":681.02,"endTime":685.37,"body":"you know, it's shame that keeps"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":681.02,"endTime":685.37,"body":"them drinking. So thinking of it"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":685.37,"endTime":690.2,"body":"in a functional way, calling the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":685.37,"endTime":690.2,"body":"problem an illness, at least in"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":690.2,"endTime":695.21,"body":"this context, is is a way that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":690.2,"endTime":695.21,"body":"people can can overcome shame."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":695.24,"endTime":699.11,"body":"Now I know your work James has"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":695.24,"endTime":699.11,"body":"been absolutely fantastic in in"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":699.14,"endTime":706.4,"body":"addressing wider stigma issues"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":699.14,"endTime":706.4,"body":"and house prevents people from"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":706.43,"endTime":710.84,"body":"from seeking help, and of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":706.43,"endTime":710.84,"body":"course, calling calling people"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":710.84,"endTime":715.76,"body":"alcoholics or, you know, the way"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":710.84,"endTime":715.76,"body":"that that term disease is used"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":715.79,"endTime":721.4,"body":"sometimes to demean or belittle"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":715.79,"endTime":721.4,"body":"or stigmatise people that can be"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":721.4,"endTime":725.03,"body":"really problematic, but you"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":721.4,"endTime":725.03,"body":"know, especially in a kind of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":725.03,"endTime":729.8,"body":"public discourse sense, but"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":725.03,"endTime":729.8,"body":"internally within the 12 step"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":729.8,"endTime":734.3,"body":"fellowships that language it's"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":729.8,"endTime":734.3,"body":"it's not used in a professional"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":734.3,"endTime":740.54,"body":"sense, it's, it's used as a way"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":734.3,"endTime":740.54,"body":"to help people to manage their"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":740.54,"endTime":746.36,"body":"shame enough to be able to bring"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":740.54,"endTime":746.36,"body":"about the changes that that the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":746.36,"endTime":749.75,"body":"12 step programme kind of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":746.36,"endTime":749.75,"body":"enables them today."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":749.84,"endTime":754.46,"body":"So yeah, super,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":749.84,"endTime":754.46,"body":"super important. I was going to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":754.46,"endTime":756.86,"body":"come on to that in the sense"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":754.46,"endTime":756.86,"body":"that Yeah, sort of self"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":756.86,"endTime":761.3,"body":"identifying and making sense of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":756.86,"endTime":761.3,"body":"something, and putting a name on"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":761.3,"endTime":764.21,"body":"something that, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":761.3,"endTime":764.21,"body":"addiction, again, that's sort of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":764.24,"endTime":768.08,"body":"academic or public debates, and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":764.24,"endTime":768.08,"body":"may be very circular in some"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":768.08,"endTime":772.7,"body":"ways, because it's such a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":768.08,"endTime":772.7,"body":"complex and uniquely personal"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":772.7,"endTime":776.42,"body":"experience, that there isn't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":772.7,"endTime":776.42,"body":"perhaps a way of defining it in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":776.42,"endTime":779.6,"body":"a way that's going to make sense"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":776.42,"endTime":779.6,"body":"for everybody. So that personal"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":779.63,"endTime":784.25,"body":"sense making process is, is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":779.63,"endTime":784.25,"body":"obviously, so important. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":784.28,"endTime":786.83,"body":"people are going to, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":784.28,"endTime":786.83,"body":"just try and make sense of it in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":786.83,"endTime":790.16,"body":"the way that works for them. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":786.83,"endTime":790.16,"body":"obviously, that is such an"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":790.16,"endTime":793.55,"body":"important part of AA. I mean,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":790.16,"endTime":793.55,"body":"one of my favourite papers is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":794.27,"endTime":797.66,"body":"the Hill and Leeming paper where"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":794.27,"endTime":797.66,"body":"they talk about how people kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":797.66,"endTime":800.15,"body":"of wrestle with the alcoholic"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":797.66,"endTime":800.15,"body":"identity. But for a lot of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":800.15,"endTime":802.82,"body":"people, it's, you know, it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":800.15,"endTime":802.82,"body":"always going to be an important"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":802.82,"endTime":807.11,"body":"part of kind of putting a name"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":802.82,"endTime":807.11,"body":"on something and maybe making"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":807.11,"endTime":809.39,"body":"sense of that process. But yeah,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":807.11,"endTime":809.39,"body":"I think you're absolutely right,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":809.39,"endTime":813.14,"body":"that it's really important to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":809.39,"endTime":813.14,"body":"distinguish and recognise that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":813.14,"endTime":816.23,"body":"for many people, that's a really"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":813.14,"endTime":816.23,"body":"important part of the process."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":816.26,"endTime":818.36,"body":"Yeah, I suppose what I'm"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":816.26,"endTime":818.36,"body":"interested in is the way in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":818.36,"endTime":823.55,"body":"which may be I might say that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":818.36,"endTime":823.55,"body":"terminology or disease disease"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":823.55,"endTime":827.51,"body":"labelling kind of maybe spills"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":823.55,"endTime":827.51,"body":"over into to other discourses"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":827.51,"endTime":831.41,"body":"where it's perhaps, like you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":827.51,"endTime":831.41,"body":"say, harmful in terms of stigma,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":831.62,"endTime":834.53,"body":"or othering other people and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":831.62,"endTime":834.53,"body":"particularly in the way that I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":834.53,"endTime":838.91,"body":"think heavy drinkers who don't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":834.53,"endTime":838.91,"body":"self identify maybe are drawn to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":838.91,"endTime":842.03,"body":"the idea of it being a disease,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":838.91,"endTime":842.03,"body":"because that means they"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":842.03,"endTime":844.85,"body":"themselves, they'll place"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":842.03,"endTime":844.85,"body":"themselves on the non disease"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":844.85,"endTime":851.93,"body":"side of this false binary. So"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":844.85,"endTime":851.93,"body":"it's great that you can"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":851.96,"endTime":855.68,"body":"articulate so well how for a lot"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":851.96,"endTime":855.68,"body":"of people it is so important to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":855.68,"endTime":859.61,"body":"be able to use that label and it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":855.68,"endTime":859.61,"body":"may be done in a metaphorical or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":859.61,"endTime":863.6,"body":"very personal way that you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":859.61,"endTime":863.6,"body":"or just within the confines of a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":863.6,"endTime":866.45,"body":"meeting and not ever used"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":863.6,"endTime":866.45,"body":"elsewhere."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":866.48,"endTime":869.24,"body":"I think that's"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":866.48,"endTime":869.24,"body":"right. I think also, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":869.24,"endTime":873.59,"body":"when when people set self"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":869.24,"endTime":873.59,"body":"identify as as alcoholic in a in"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":873.59,"endTime":876.68,"body":"an a meeting, what they're, what"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":873.59,"endTime":876.68,"body":"they're doing that so that's a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":876.68,"endTime":881.72,"body":"move of humility, and you know,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":876.68,"endTime":881.72,"body":"which is would be thought of as"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":881.72,"endTime":887.3,"body":"a as a spiritual virtue, it's"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":881.72,"endTime":887.3,"body":"also a move of equality. So"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":887.33,"endTime":890.81,"body":"there's no kind of social"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":887.33,"endTime":890.81,"body":"hierarchy as there is in the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":890.81,"endTime":895.49,"body":"outside world within an AA"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":890.81,"endTime":895.49,"body":"meeting. So to kind of statement"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":895.49,"endTime":899.39,"body":"of solidarity, equality,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":895.49,"endTime":899.39,"body":"humility, you know, people say"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":899.39,"endTime":903.29,"body":"that they It's an element of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":899.39,"endTime":903.29,"body":"their identity that they need to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":903.29,"endTime":907.01,"body":"remember. And it's helpful to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":903.29,"endTime":907.01,"body":"you term about themselves to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":907.01,"endTime":910.13,"body":"remember, you know, oh, yes, I,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":907.01,"endTime":910.13,"body":"you know, I am an alcoholic,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":910.13,"endTime":914.24,"body":"therefore I can't I can't drink"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":910.13,"endTime":914.24,"body":"safely, people find that I use"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":914.27,"endTime":917.42,"body":"just a useful thing to say. But"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":914.27,"endTime":917.42,"body":"it's it's much more than that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":917.42,"endTime":920.6,"body":"it's got these, you know, some"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":917.42,"endTime":920.6,"body":"might say spiritual"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":920.63,"endTime":925.88,"body":"characteristics. So, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":920.63,"endTime":925.88,"body":"do think it's, it's unfortunate"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":925.91,"endTime":929.63,"body":"when that does spill out into"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":925.91,"endTime":929.63,"body":"public discourse. I mean, I'm"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":929.63,"endTime":933.41,"body":"listening with great interest to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":929.63,"endTime":933.41,"body":"the current storyline on the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":933.41,"endTime":937.61,"body":"Archers on radio four, where"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":933.41,"endTime":937.61,"body":"Alice, I don't know if you"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":937.61,"endTime":941.15,"body":"listen to it, but Alice, I don't"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":937.61,"endTime":941.15,"body":"know. Yeah. So she's, they're,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":941.15,"endTime":944.21,"body":"they're using that term"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":941.15,"endTime":944.21,"body":"alcoholic in very definite"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":944.21,"endTime":947.3,"body":"terms. And this is an"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":944.21,"endTime":947.3,"body":"environment where, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":947.3,"endTime":951.44,"body":"she, she's not going to meetings"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":947.3,"endTime":951.44,"body":"or anything, she's just being"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":951.44,"endTime":955.37,"body":"labelled as an alcoholic by her"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":951.44,"endTime":955.37,"body":"partner as if that was a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":955.49,"endTime":960.53,"body":"meaningful label. And I think it"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":955.49,"endTime":960.53,"body":"is thought to be a meaningful"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":960.53,"endTime":965.0,"body":"label in a lot of wider"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":960.53,"endTime":965.0,"body":"discourse. And, you know, I, I"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":965.0,"endTime":968.57,"body":"think your work in pushing back"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":965.0,"endTime":968.57,"body":"against that is, is so"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":968.57,"endTime":972.62,"body":"important. But at the same time,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":968.57,"endTime":972.62,"body":"you know, within the, within the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":972.62,"endTime":977.57,"body":"context of Alcoholics Anonymous,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":972.62,"endTime":977.57,"body":"it's really interesting to know"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":977.57,"endTime":980.93,"body":"what's going on there when"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":977.57,"endTime":980.93,"body":"people do identify in that way,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":980.96,"endTime":985.19,"body":"and it is very important to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":980.96,"endTime":985.19,"body":"people to be free to identify in"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":985.19,"endTime":989.87,"body":"that way. Absolutely. So, you"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":985.19,"endTime":989.87,"body":"know, the kind of anti stigma"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":989.93,"endTime":996.14,"body":"effort needs to be kind of very"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":989.93,"endTime":996.14,"body":"directed, in that sense that it"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":996.14,"endTime":1001.3,"body":"doesn't take away people's right"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":996.14,"endTime":1001.3,"body":"to first person identify in that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1001.3,"endTime":1005.56,"body":"way. And if that, if that feels"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1001.3,"endTime":1005.56,"body":"right, to them, and important to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1005.56,"endTime":1005.89,"body":"them?"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1006.01,"endTime":1008.92,"body":"Absolutely, yeah,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1006.01,"endTime":1008.92,"body":"it's really, it's really just to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1008.92,"endTime":1012.22,"body":"not push that label on to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1008.92,"endTime":1012.22,"body":"someone else, I think, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1012.22,"endTime":1014.77,"body":"just like the example you're"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1012.22,"endTime":1014.77,"body":"giving there in the Archers. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1014.77,"endTime":1018.01,"body":"I think for a lot of people,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1014.77,"endTime":1018.01,"body":"when they view someone else's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1018.01,"endTime":1021.34,"body":"having an alcohol problem, they"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1018.01,"endTime":1021.34,"body":"might kind of mistakenly assume"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1021.34,"endTime":1025.3,"body":"that the only the only necessary"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1021.34,"endTime":1025.3,"body":"changes for them just to admit"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1025.3,"endTime":1028.45,"body":"that they they are an alcoholic,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1025.3,"endTime":1028.45,"body":"and then that would somehow"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1028.45,"endTime":1031.27,"body":"unlock you know, that the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1028.45,"endTime":1031.27,"body":"recovery, whereas, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1031.27,"endTime":1034.36,"body":"we've kind of touched on that,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1031.27,"endTime":1034.36,"body":"it's more that that's for some"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1034.36,"endTime":1038.14,"body":"people part of the process of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1034.36,"endTime":1038.14,"body":"recovery, rather than it's just"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1038.14,"endTime":1041.26,"body":"the simple attaching or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1038.14,"endTime":1041.26,"body":"recognising the label coming out"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1041.26,"endTime":1045.07,"body":"of this idea of denial, that's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1041.26,"endTime":1045.07,"body":"the only issue. That's, that's,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1045.31,"endTime":1048.28,"body":"that's kind of misleading, and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1045.31,"endTime":1048.28,"body":"of course, owning that alcoholic"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1048.28,"endTime":1051.43,"body":"identity might be very"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1048.28,"endTime":1051.43,"body":"threatening and put someone off,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1051.43,"endTime":1056.29,"body":"whereas maybe it's a bit of a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1051.43,"endTime":1056.29,"body":"gradual process. And I suppose,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1056.29,"endTime":1060.01,"body":"you know, my, my instinct would"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1056.29,"endTime":1060.01,"body":"be that many people kind of step"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1060.01,"endTime":1064.66,"body":"tentatively into recovery"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1060.01,"endTime":1064.66,"body":"networks or a and, and then they"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1064.66,"endTime":1067.78,"body":"realise it's a safe or very"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1064.66,"endTime":1067.78,"body":"welcoming space, or they try"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1067.78,"endTime":1070.12,"body":"some different meetings. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1067.78,"endTime":1070.12,"body":"throughout that process, they"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1070.3,"endTime":1073.0,"body":"become more safe, and then"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1070.3,"endTime":1073.0,"body":"understand it's a way of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1073.06,"endTime":1076.93,"body":"alleviating shame and getting"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1073.06,"endTime":1076.93,"body":"social spore finding their"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1076.93,"endTime":1077.65,"body":"meanings."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1077.72,"endTime":1080.75,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1077.72,"endTime":1080.75,"body":"certainly. And if you're looking"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1080.75,"endTime":1084.89,"body":"at it from a 12 step"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1080.75,"endTime":1084.89,"body":"perspective, the the admission"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1084.89,"endTime":1089.12,"body":"and acceptance of the alcoholic"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1084.89,"endTime":1089.12,"body":"identity, that's, that's seen as"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1089.15,"endTime":1092.81,"body":"simply the first step. So"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1089.15,"endTime":1092.81,"body":"that's, you've got a long way to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1092.81,"endTime":1096.86,"body":"go still, if, you know, if"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1092.81,"endTime":1096.86,"body":"ou're working a 12 step"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1096.86,"endTime":1101.39,"body":"rogramme. But equally, there"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1096.86,"endTime":1101.39,"body":"re problems with, because I"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1101.39,"endTime":1105.35,"body":"think you're really onto"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1101.39,"endTime":1105.35,"body":"something when you sew admission"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1105.35,"endTime":1109.91,"body":"on on the one hand of the kind"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1105.35,"endTime":1109.91,"body":"of that there is a problem and"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1110.57,"endTime":1118.7,"body":"that label alcoholic can be a m"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1110.57,"endTime":1118.7,"body":"ssive barrier that actually pre"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1118.7,"endTime":1122.15,"body":"ents people from ack"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1118.7,"endTime":1122.15,"body":"owledging that they that the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1122.15,"endTime":1125.87,"body":"e is a problem."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1127.0,"endTime":1131.41,"body":"Well it's a high"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1127.0,"endTime":1131.41,"body":"threshold. And I think going"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1131.41,"endTime":1135.97,"body":"back to the stigma point is that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1131.41,"endTime":1135.97,"body":"people know that once you have"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1135.97,"endTime":1139.33,"body":"that alcoholic identity,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1135.97,"endTime":1139.33,"body":"however, that might make you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1139.33,"endTime":1142.6,"body":"feel you know, in the eyes of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1139.33,"endTime":1142.6,"body":"society, you're going to be"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1142.6,"endTime":1145.51,"body":"labelled on caste and judged as"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1142.6,"endTime":1145.51,"body":"'other'. And I think that's why"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1145.51,"endTime":1149.26,"body":"stigma is so important. The"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1145.51,"endTime":1149.26,"body":"threat to be, you know, placed"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1149.26,"endTime":1154.18,"body":"into the outgroup by society is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1149.26,"endTime":1154.18,"body":"so potentially harmful and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1154.18,"endTime":1158.17,"body":"damaging, and, of course, that's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1154.18,"endTime":1158.17,"body":"why it's anonymous to try and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1158.17,"endTime":1161.2,"body":"protect people from that. But"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1158.17,"endTime":1161.2,"body":"you know, it's hard in a very"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1161.2,"endTime":1165.73,"body":"alcohol saturated society to I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1161.2,"endTime":1165.73,"body":"suppose, always maintain that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1166.03,"endTime":1169.54,"body":"anonymity? If, if that's going"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1166.03,"endTime":1169.54,"body":"to be the choice, so I think,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1169.57,"endTime":1173.65,"body":"yeah, you know, the, the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1169.57,"endTime":1173.65,"body":"benefits are undeniable of for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1173.65,"endTime":1177.61,"body":"people who engage in it that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1173.65,"endTime":1177.61,"body":"many of them will find a life"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1177.61,"endTime":1181.96,"body":"changing recovery. But that kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1177.61,"endTime":1181.96,"body":"of uncertainty or apprehension"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1181.96,"endTime":1186.19,"body":"is very normal in the sense of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1181.96,"endTime":1186.19,"body":"the huge kind of complexities"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1186.19,"endTime":1190.21,"body":"and implications for other"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1186.19,"endTime":1190.21,"body":"people who are drinkers or heavy"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1190.21,"endTime":1193.0,"body":"drinkers that exists in the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1190.21,"endTime":1193.0,"body":"wider society, how they'll"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1193.0,"endTime":1193.93,"body":"respond to that."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1194.29,"endTime":1197.86,"body":"Yeah, you're"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1194.29,"endTime":1197.86,"body":"you're right. And I think that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1197.86,"endTime":1202.09,"body":"there is a kind of othering and"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1197.86,"endTime":1202.09,"body":"outgrouping of people but that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1202.09,"endTime":1205.69,"body":"there is also strength in that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1202.09,"endTime":1205.69,"body":"in the sense that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1205.69,"endTime":1210.64,"body":"sometimes people will, we'll"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1205.69,"endTime":1210.64,"body":"talk about how, in, in"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1210.64,"endTime":1214.78,"body":"alcoholics anonymous people"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1210.64,"endTime":1214.78,"body":"understand each other in a way"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1214.78,"endTime":1218.29,"body":"that people in the outside world"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1214.78,"endTime":1218.29,"body":"can't. And there's there is the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1218.29,"endTime":1223.15,"body":"kind of social identity strength"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1218.29,"endTime":1223.15,"body":"in that, you know, regardless of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1223.15,"endTime":1226.18,"body":"whether it's actually true or"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1223.15,"endTime":1226.18,"body":"not, you know, that that sense"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1226.18,"endTime":1230.38,"body":"of it's us against the rest of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1226.18,"endTime":1230.38,"body":"the world actually, can be a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1230.38,"endTime":1235.27,"body":"very powerful motivator. So that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1230.38,"endTime":1235.27,"body":"other ring does have a kind of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1235.3,"endTime":1237.25,"body":"another side to it."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1237.31,"endTime":1239.59,"body":"So yeah, again,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1237.31,"endTime":1239.59,"body":"even in some of the literature,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1239.59,"endTime":1242.17,"body":"again, taking us off more"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1239.59,"endTime":1242.17,"body":"academic perspective, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1242.17,"endTime":1246.46,"body":"that is recognised, I think in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1242.17,"endTime":1246.46,"body":"in amongst stigmatised groups,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1246.46,"endTime":1251.17,"body":"that there is perhaps an added"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1246.46,"endTime":1251.17,"body":"psychological resource from"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1251.17,"endTime":1254.83,"body":"that, by their solidarity"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1251.17,"endTime":1254.83,"body":"together in exactly as you say,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1254.86,"endTime":1258.46,"body":"knowing that they need to come"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1254.86,"endTime":1258.46,"body":"together to kind of face the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1258.49,"endTime":1262.51,"body":"threats and judgement of the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1258.49,"endTime":1262.51,"body":"biggest social ingroup. So that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1262.63,"endTime":1264.01,"body":"that's really important. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1264.04,"endTime":1267.4,"body":"You mentioned"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1264.04,"endTime":1267.4,"body":"anonymity there. And, of course,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1267.4,"endTime":1273.46,"body":"that that's a controversial idea"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1267.4,"endTime":1273.46,"body":"that also has spiritual roots,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1273.49,"endTime":1276.34,"body":"or could be interpreted in"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1273.49,"endTime":1276.34,"body":"spiritual terms. So it's"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1276.34,"endTime":1281.38,"body":"controversial because of the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1276.34,"endTime":1281.38,"body":"problem that it has led to there"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1281.38,"endTime":1286.03,"body":"being, you know, a lack of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1281.38,"endTime":1286.03,"body":"visible recovery within within"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1286.03,"endTime":1291.61,"body":"communities. I think many"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1286.03,"endTime":1291.61,"body":"outsiders think that this is"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1291.61,"endTime":1295.45,"body":"driven by shame. And it's, you"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1291.61,"endTime":1295.45,"body":"know, having alcohol problems is"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1295.45,"endTime":1301.72,"body":"a terrible secret or whatever."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1295.45,"endTime":1301.72,"body":"But in fact, within a anonymity"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1301.75,"endTime":1306.58,"body":"is, is seen as a spiritual"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1301.75,"endTime":1306.58,"body":"principle. And again, it's about"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1306.61,"endTime":1310.33,"body":"humility. It's saying, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1306.61,"endTime":1310.33,"body":"I'm not going to go out into"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1310.33,"endTime":1314.86,"body":"the, the outside world and"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1310.33,"endTime":1314.86,"body":"trumpet about my my achievements"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1314.86,"endTime":1319.69,"body":"with my with my recovery,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1314.86,"endTime":1319.69,"body":"because the recovery is, is not"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1319.69,"endTime":1323.35,"body":"my work, it's the work of a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1319.69,"endTime":1323.35,"body":"higher power, or, you know, I'm"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1323.35,"endTime":1327.85,"body":"not going to Trump it my"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1323.35,"endTime":1327.85,"body":"recovery out there, because if"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1327.88,"endTime":1331.36,"body":"something were to happen, and I"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1327.88,"endTime":1331.36,"body":"were to, you know, start"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1331.39,"endTime":1335.95,"body":"drinking again, then I"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1331.39,"endTime":1335.95,"body":"potentially bring the the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1335.95,"endTime":1340.0,"body":"fellowship and the 12 steps into"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1335.95,"endTime":1340.0,"body":"disrepute. So you know, that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1340.0,"endTime":1344.35,"body":"there's a kind of sense of, of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1340.0,"endTime":1344.35,"body":"humility and responsibility"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1344.41,"endTime":1348.88,"body":"embedded into that anonymity"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1344.41,"endTime":1348.88,"body":"context. And I think the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1348.88,"endTime":1352.36,"body":"perception from the outside"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1348.88,"endTime":1352.36,"body":"world that it's all about"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1352.36,"endTime":1356.23,"body":"secrecy and shame is"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1352.36,"endTime":1356.23,"body":"unfortunate, really, I think"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1356.23,"endTime":1358.42,"body":"that's a misunderstanding of the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1356.23,"endTime":1358.42,"body":"concept."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1358.0,"endTime":1360.58,"body":"That's really"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1358.0,"endTime":1360.58,"body":"that's really super interesting."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1360.61,"endTime":1363.4,"body":"And I've listened to a few"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1360.61,"endTime":1363.4,"body":"podcasts with Russell Brand and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1363.4,"endTime":1366.67,"body":"I think he really tries to, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1363.4,"endTime":1366.67,"body":"know, he kind of struggles with"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1366.67,"endTime":1369.22,"body":"that, if my understanding is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1366.67,"endTime":1369.22,"body":"kind of right, that he's this"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1369.43,"endTime":1374.23,"body":"very influential, worldwide"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1369.43,"endTime":1374.23,"body":"celebrity, essentially. And he's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1374.23,"endTime":1377.74,"body":"obviously, you know, I think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1374.23,"endTime":1377.74,"body":"he's an incredibly insightful,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1377.74,"endTime":1381.88,"body":"intelligent person with so many"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1377.74,"endTime":1381.88,"body":"interesting ideas, of course, a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1381.88,"endTime":1384.46,"body":"lot of which I might not agree"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1381.88,"endTime":1384.46,"body":"with, necessarily, but I think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1384.49,"endTime":1388.24,"body":"he really talks about in some of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1384.49,"endTime":1388.24,"body":"his podcasts that reason why he"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1388.24,"endTime":1391.66,"body":"talks about this is comes with"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1388.24,"endTime":1391.66,"body":"maybe a cost that it's almost"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1391.66,"endTime":1395.74,"body":"that he always tries to separate"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1391.66,"endTime":1395.74,"body":"the fact that he should, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1395.74,"endTime":1399.19,"body":"know, he's not trying to do this"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1395.74,"endTime":1399.19,"body":"as part of feeding his own ego,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1399.19,"endTime":1403.42,"body":"but it's, it's about sharing his"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1399.19,"endTime":1403.42,"body":"experience. And kind of I think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1403.42,"endTime":1406.87,"body":"that's really powerful in many"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1403.42,"endTime":1406.87,"body":"ways, because certainly in terms"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1406.87,"endTime":1412.03,"body":"of stigma that I think is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1406.87,"endTime":1412.03,"body":"hearing humanising narratives,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1412.03,"endTime":1414.85,"body":"you know, understanding that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1412.03,"endTime":1414.85,"body":"addiction problems are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1414.88,"endTime":1417.76,"body":"ultimately about people. And I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1414.88,"endTime":1417.76,"body":"think that's why the sort of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1417.76,"endTime":1421.6,"body":"spirituality question really"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1417.76,"endTime":1421.6,"body":"appeals to me is that I do see"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1421.63,"endTime":1424.54,"body":"addiction, despite all the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1421.63,"endTime":1424.54,"body":"social psychology or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1424.54,"endTime":1428.35,"body":"behaviourism, as ultimately a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1424.54,"endTime":1428.35,"body":"problem of living that life is,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1428.44,"endTime":1432.73,"body":"is difficult and challenging and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1428.44,"endTime":1432.73,"body":"stressful as sentient beings."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1432.73,"endTime":1436.12,"body":"And addiction is almost a normal"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1432.73,"endTime":1436.12,"body":"mechanism or response to that,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1436.12,"endTime":1440.59,"body":"in many ways. I think humanising"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1436.12,"endTime":1440.59,"body":"narratives are really important"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1440.59,"endTime":1443.98,"body":"in that, but as you say, like"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1440.59,"endTime":1443.98,"body":"it's really important not to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1444.01,"endTime":1448.48,"body":"typecast the anonymity in terms"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1444.01,"endTime":1448.48,"body":"of shame or protecting people,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1448.48,"endTime":1450.7,"body":"but rather, there's something a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1448.48,"endTime":1450.7,"body":"bit deeper to that. That's,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1450.7,"endTime":1451.75,"body":"that's really interesting."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1452.2,"endTime":1455.68,"body":"Yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1452.2,"endTime":1455.68,"body":"I, I think it's a dilemma for,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1456.22,"endTime":1460.45,"body":"for many people in recovery"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1456.22,"endTime":1460.45,"body":"about, you know, how much to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1460.48,"endTime":1464.05,"body":"talk about it, how much to own"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1460.48,"endTime":1464.05,"body":"it in the public space, you"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1464.05,"endTime":1467.14,"body":"know, there are private spaces"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1464.05,"endTime":1467.14,"body":"and public spaces. And you know,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1467.14,"endTime":1470.38,"body":"there's it's quite tricky, I"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1467.14,"endTime":1470.38,"body":"think, to know and it's, you"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1470.38,"endTime":1473.89,"body":"know, interesting observing"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1470.38,"endTime":1473.89,"body":"people interpreting these"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1473.89,"endTime":1477.82,"body":"concepts very differently from"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1473.89,"endTime":1477.82,"body":"each other, but the visible"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1477.82,"endTime":1481.93,"body":"recovery movement is a growing"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1477.82,"endTime":1481.93,"body":"movement. And I think that's a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1481.93,"endTime":1485.8,"body":"very good thing. I think there"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1481.93,"endTime":1485.8,"body":"are risks associated with that,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1485.95,"endTime":1490.18,"body":"you know, that people are at"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1485.95,"endTime":1490.18,"body":"risk of kind of ending up on on"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1490.21,"endTime":1494.71,"body":"ego trips about it, but, but in"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1490.21,"endTime":1494.71,"body":"general, the more stories of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1494.74,"endTime":1498.76,"body":"recovery that can be told and"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1494.74,"endTime":1498.76,"body":"the greater diversity of it"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1498.76,"endTime":1503.02,"body":"recovery experience. That we"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1498.76,"endTime":1503.02,"body":"hear about within culture, that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1503.02,"endTime":1506.5,"body":"that's a good thing. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1503.02,"endTime":1506.5,"body":"there's a kind of meta narrative"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1506.5,"endTime":1511.12,"body":"of recovery that things were all"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1506.5,"endTime":1511.12,"body":"for. I did this and things got"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1511.12,"endTime":1515.59,"body":"better, which has some value."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1511.12,"endTime":1515.59,"body":"But But the problem is people's"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1515.62,"endTime":1519.7,"body":"stories are always far more"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1515.62,"endTime":1519.7,"body":"complicated than that. And I"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1519.7,"endTime":1523.39,"body":"think, you know, there needs to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1519.7,"endTime":1523.39,"body":"be more and more diverse"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1523.39,"endTime":1528.1,"body":"recovery stories available"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1523.39,"endTime":1528.1,"body":"within culture, generally, to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1528.1,"endTime":1533.17,"body":"open up space for people who the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1528.1,"endTime":1533.17,"body":"12 step programme is not is not"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1533.17,"endTime":1536.68,"body":"attractive to some people. So"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1533.17,"endTime":1536.68,"body":"what what are they going to do"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1536.71,"endTime":1540.1,"body":"what, you know, what's their"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1536.71,"endTime":1540.1,"body":"recovery story going to be? And"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1540.1,"endTime":1544.36,"body":"there are lots of lots of other"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1540.1,"endTime":1544.36,"body":"options available to people,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1544.36,"endTime":1547.6,"body":"lots of other ways of talking"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1544.36,"endTime":1547.6,"body":"about these processes."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1547.66,"endTime":1550.06,"body":"Totally. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1547.66,"endTime":1550.06,"body":"that's partly the aim of the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1550.06,"endTime":1553.72,"body":"show, but also the Adrian, why"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1550.06,"endTime":1553.72,"body":"Adrian Charles kind of story is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1553.72,"endTime":1556.99,"body":"so interesting, because you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1553.72,"endTime":1556.99,"body":"know, on the first episode, we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1556.99,"endTime":1560.53,"body":"did with him he says, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1556.99,"endTime":1560.53,"body":"he's cut down his drinking. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1560.53,"endTime":1563.41,"body":"obviously, he he says that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1560.53,"endTime":1563.41,"body":"people come up to him, and they"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1563.41,"endTime":1566.29,"body":"can't compute this idea of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1563.41,"endTime":1566.29,"body":"moderation, they don't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1566.29,"endTime":1570.37,"body":"understand what he's doing is a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1566.29,"endTime":1570.37,"body":"form of recovery. So even the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1570.37,"endTime":1572.95,"body":"word recovery itself is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1570.37,"endTime":1572.95,"body":"complicated, isn't it? Because"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1572.95,"endTime":1576.79,"body":"it sort of stereotypes certain"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1572.95,"endTime":1576.79,"body":"ideas of things, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1576.79,"endTime":1580.27,"body":"particularly abstinence and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1576.79,"endTime":1580.27,"body":"meetings and those kinds of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1580.27,"endTime":1583.06,"body":"things. But yeah, I really agree"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1580.27,"endTime":1583.06,"body":"that we need narratives that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1583.06,"endTime":1587.32,"body":"diversify the understanding of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1583.06,"endTime":1587.32,"body":"recovery in a much broader and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1587.44,"endTime":1590.08,"body":"individualised way. And perhaps"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1587.44,"endTime":1590.08,"body":"spiritual as well."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1590.32,"endTime":1594.13,"body":"Yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1590.32,"endTime":1594.13,"body":"the term floating signifier is a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1594.13,"endTime":1598.36,"body":"good one with the with these"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1594.13,"endTime":1598.36,"body":"terms, like spirituality and"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1598.36,"endTime":1602.14,"body":"recovery, they tend to mean"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1598.36,"endTime":1602.14,"body":"whatever the speaker wants them"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1602.14,"endTime":1606.97,"body":"to mean, there's no kind of firm"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1602.14,"endTime":1606.97,"body":"understanding of what these"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1606.97,"endTime":1611.05,"body":"terms mean. And they're deployed"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1606.97,"endTime":1611.05,"body":"in in ways that, you know, can"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1611.05,"endTime":1614.47,"body":"cause all kinds of difficulties"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1611.05,"endTime":1614.47,"body":"really say all this, this is"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1614.47,"endTime":1617.65,"body":"recovery. And this isn't? Well,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1614.47,"endTime":1617.65,"body":"what that tells us is what you"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1617.65,"endTime":1621.76,"body":"think recovery is not, not"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1617.65,"endTime":1621.76,"body":"whether this is recovery, or it"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1621.76,"endTime":1626.11,"body":"isn't because there are there"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1621.76,"endTime":1626.11,"body":"aren't shared standard ideas of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1626.11,"endTime":1630.16,"body":"what these things mean. But what"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1626.11,"endTime":1630.16,"body":"I think that means that we all"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1630.16,"endTime":1633.73,"body":"need to talk to each other a lot"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1630.16,"endTime":1633.73,"body":"more than we do, and be less"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1633.73,"endTime":1638.38,"body":"defensive about about particular"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1633.73,"endTime":1638.38,"body":"approaches, and to look for the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1638.38,"endTime":1642.43,"body":"similarities across different"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1638.38,"endTime":1642.43,"body":"approaches, there's a kind of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1642.46,"endTime":1646.33,"body":"idea of very strong in the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1642.46,"endTime":1646.33,"body":"states that you can get sober"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1646.39,"endTime":1650.59,"body":"through a or you could get sober"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1646.39,"endTime":1650.59,"body":"in a rational way. And that I"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1650.59,"endTime":1655.27,"body":"think, is a false binary,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1650.59,"endTime":1655.27,"body":"between, you know, different"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1655.27,"endTime":1659.02,"body":"approaches that actually have an"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1655.27,"endTime":1659.02,"body":"awful lot in common and their"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1659.02,"endTime":1662.5,"body":"rich cultural resources. And"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1659.02,"endTime":1662.5,"body":"there should be lots of them,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1662.53,"endTime":1665.8,"body":"you know, so that people can"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1662.53,"endTime":1665.8,"body":"find the ways that that suit"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1665.8,"endTime":1669.25,"body":"themselves and speak to their"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1665.8,"endTime":1669.25,"body":"own experience of, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1669.25,"endTime":1672.58,"body":"their difficulty with with"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1669.25,"endTime":1672.58,"body":"substances or whatever it is,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1672.61,"endTime":1678.19,"body":"and their own worldviews. You"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1672.61,"endTime":1678.19,"body":"know, it's you can't make people"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1678.19,"endTime":1680.95,"body":"believe certain things, you"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1678.19,"endTime":1680.95,"body":"know, you can't make people"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1680.95,"endTime":1684.28,"body":"believe anything, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1680.95,"endTime":1684.28,"body":"people either resonate with"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1684.28,"endTime":1688.27,"body":"certain ideas, or they don't. So"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1684.28,"endTime":1688.27,"body":"there has to be kind of vast"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1688.27,"endTime":1691.15,"body":"array of different ways of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1688.27,"endTime":1691.15,"body":"talking about this process."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1691.39,"endTime":1692.98,"body":"Yeah, I really"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1691.39,"endTime":1692.98,"body":"agree. I think there's some"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1692.98,"endTime":1695.98,"body":"really important points in that."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1692.98,"endTime":1695.98,"body":"And again, it goes back to that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1696.01,"endTime":1700.24,"body":"idea of sharing stories and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1696.01,"endTime":1700.24,"body":"humanising narratives that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1700.3,"endTime":1704.62,"body":"enable people to, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1700.3,"endTime":1704.62,"body":"empathise in some way and allow"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1704.62,"endTime":1709.42,"body":"people to find their own ways of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1704.62,"endTime":1709.42,"body":"of making sense or kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1709.42,"endTime":1713.5,"body":"recovery in inverted commas. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1709.42,"endTime":1713.5,"body":"I think within the context of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1713.59,"endTime":1716.98,"body":"perhaps a meetings, that's a big"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1713.59,"endTime":1716.98,"body":"part of it, isn't it that people"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1717.01,"endTime":1720.97,"body":"are encouraged? Are they not to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1717.01,"endTime":1720.97,"body":"find what they identify and what"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1720.97,"endTime":1723.73,"body":"other people say and be self"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1720.97,"endTime":1723.73,"body":"compassionate and understanding"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1723.73,"endTime":1727.3,"body":"and that perhaps, in many ways,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1723.73,"endTime":1727.3,"body":"is a key strength of not only a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1727.3,"endTime":1730.12,"body":"but it's a philosophy that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1727.3,"endTime":1730.12,"body":"should run throughout any"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1730.15,"endTime":1733.69,"body":"professional or informal"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1730.15,"endTime":1733.69,"body":"recovery programme? Isn't it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1733.69,"endTime":1737.26,"body":"that understanding and space for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1733.69,"endTime":1737.26,"body":"that person to make sense of it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1737.26,"endTime":1738.07,"body":"in their own way?"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1738.1,"endTime":1741.04,"body":"Yes,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1738.1,"endTime":1741.04,"body":"absolutely. And being non"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1741.04,"endTime":1744.52,"body":"judgmental, and having a space"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1741.04,"endTime":1744.52,"body":"where you can hear lots of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1744.52,"endTime":1749.23,"body":"different voices, I think is is"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1744.52,"endTime":1749.23,"body":"essential. And, you know, that's"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1749.23,"endTime":1755.62,"body":"my my research on a in the UK"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1749.23,"endTime":1755.62,"body":"shows me that, that for the most"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1755.62,"endTime":1758.86,"body":"part, there are some exceptions,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1755.62,"endTime":1758.86,"body":"but for the most part, that is"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1758.86,"endTime":1763.99,"body":"the case. And you know, there"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1758.86,"endTime":1763.99,"body":"are diverse voices, there isn't"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1764.02,"endTime":1769.21,"body":"the kind of schismatic issues"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1764.02,"endTime":1769.21,"body":"that run through the situation"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1769.21,"endTime":1773.32,"body":"in the US, for example, where,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1769.21,"endTime":1773.32,"body":"you know, he tends to be"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1773.32,"endTime":1778.87,"body":"expressed in in ways that are"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1773.32,"endTime":1778.87,"body":"much more obviously associated"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1778.87,"endTime":1782.02,"body":"with Protestant Christianity and"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1778.87,"endTime":1782.02,"body":"therefore that because that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1782.02,"endTime":1786.04,"body":"alienates some people that is"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1782.02,"endTime":1786.04,"body":"growth of the atheist or"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1786.04,"endTime":1791.32,"body":"agnostic free thinker, style of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1786.04,"endTime":1791.32,"body":"VA, and that's, that's good"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1791.32,"endTime":1795.13,"body":"because that creates diversity."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1791.32,"endTime":1795.13,"body":"But in in the UK, we're seeing"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1795.13,"endTime":1798.67,"body":"much less of that there are"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1795.13,"endTime":1798.67,"body":"atheists meetings in the UK, but"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1798.67,"endTime":1802.42,"body":"they're not in any anything Like"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1798.67,"endTime":1802.42,"body":"this, the same numbers, and I"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1802.42,"endTime":1808.78,"body":"think that's because atheists in"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1802.42,"endTime":1808.78,"body":"NA are welcomed and as part of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1808.78,"endTime":1812.74,"body":"the mainstream so there isn't"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1808.78,"endTime":1812.74,"body":"there isn't that need for for"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1812.74,"endTime":1816.88,"body":"schism, you know, it's quite"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1812.74,"endTime":1816.88,"body":"acceptable to to have a concept"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1816.88,"endTime":1820.27,"body":"of a higher power that is simply"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1816.88,"endTime":1820.27,"body":"the group, there's no no"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1820.27,"endTime":1825.73,"body":"requirement to have any kind of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1820.27,"endTime":1825.73,"body":"theological or metaphysical idea"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1825.73,"endTime":1828.88,"body":"of what a higher power is,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1825.73,"endTime":1828.88,"body":"although, of course, many people"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1828.88,"endTime":1830.38,"body":"do have those ideas,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1830.51,"endTime":1832.07,"body":"That's super"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1830.51,"endTime":1832.07,"body":"interesting as well. And that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1832.1,"endTime":1836.24,"body":"that's one way in which people"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1832.1,"endTime":1836.24,"body":"are supported or encouraged or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1836.24,"endTime":1839.15,"body":"allowed to make sense of it in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1836.24,"endTime":1839.15,"body":"their own way. And I suppose"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1839.15,"endTime":1843.35,"body":"that relates to the way in which"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1839.15,"endTime":1843.35,"body":"people might have described the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1843.38,"endTime":1847.7,"body":"idea of alcohol problems or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1843.38,"endTime":1847.7,"body":"alcoholism as a disease in the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1847.7,"endTime":1851.48,"body":"folk sense that, you know, these"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1847.7,"endTime":1851.48,"body":"are kind of more metaphors, or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1851.51,"endTime":1854.51,"body":"maybe, as you say, floating"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1851.51,"endTime":1854.51,"body":"signifiers, that it's not a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1854.51,"endTime":1858.02,"body":"dogmatic thing of you must do it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1854.51,"endTime":1858.02,"body":"in this way, that that's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1858.02,"endTime":1862.31,"body":"suddenly in most cases, it would"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1858.02,"endTime":1862.31,"body":"be more a real encouragement of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1862.31,"endTime":1865.04,"body":"people being allowed to make"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1862.31,"endTime":1865.04,"body":"sense of it in ways that make"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1865.04,"endTime":1869.12,"body":"sense to them, or even finding"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1865.04,"endTime":1869.12,"body":"meetings that really speak to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1869.12,"endTime":1873.2,"body":"what works for them, or they"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1869.12,"endTime":1873.2,"body":"relate to more. And you've"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1873.2,"endTime":1876.68,"body":"looked quite a bit now the idea"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1873.2,"endTime":1876.68,"body":"of Buddhism as a form of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1876.86,"endTime":1880.1,"body":"spirituality or recovery,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1876.86,"endTime":1880.1,"body":"because there's quite a few"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1880.13,"endTime":1884.57,"body":"groups or kind of Buddhist based"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1880.13,"endTime":1884.57,"body":"recovery organisations. Could"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1884.57,"endTime":1888.98,"body":"you talk about about Buddhism"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1884.57,"endTime":1888.98,"body":"and spirituality as a recovery"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1889.01,"endTime":1890.48,"body":"process or movement?"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1890.54,"endTime":1893.27,"body":"Yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1890.54,"endTime":1893.27,"body":"this is this is something that's"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1893.33,"endTime":1896.72,"body":"a really interesting kind of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1893.33,"endTime":1896.72,"body":"development in in the recovery"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1896.72,"endTime":1902.6,"body":"field. So mindfulness is widely"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1896.72,"endTime":1902.6,"body":"used as a kind of recovery"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1902.6,"endTime":1906.44,"body":"technique in all kinds of sorts"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1902.6,"endTime":1906.44,"body":"of treatment settings, that that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1906.44,"endTime":1910.1,"body":"wouldn't consider themselves"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1906.44,"endTime":1910.1,"body":"spiritual in any way. But of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1910.1,"endTime":1913.91,"body":"course, mindfulness has has a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1910.1,"endTime":1913.91,"body":"long history in Buddhism, but"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1913.91,"endTime":1919.76,"body":"there are also other explicitly"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1913.91,"endTime":1919.76,"body":"Buddhist forms of recovery. So"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1919.85,"endTime":1923.09,"body":"there are Buddhist"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1919.85,"endTime":1923.09,"body":"interpretations of the 12 steps,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1923.12,"endTime":1927.89,"body":"for instance, so Kevin Gryphon,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1923.12,"endTime":1927.89,"body":"an American writer who his"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1927.89,"endTime":1932.24,"body":"experience was, was 12 step"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1927.89,"endTime":1932.24,"body":"initially, but he was a Buddhist"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1932.24,"endTime":1936.14,"body":"and he thought about higher"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1932.24,"endTime":1936.14,"body":"power in very Buddhist terms,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1936.29,"endTime":1940.07,"body":"what would that be? Yeah, higher"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1936.29,"endTime":1940.07,"body":"power is as the teachings the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1940.07,"endTime":1943.97,"body":"Dharma in Buddhism. So the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1940.07,"endTime":1943.97,"body":"teachings or the truth about the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1943.97,"endTime":1948.68,"body":"way things are all the idea of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1943.97,"endTime":1948.68,"body":"karma, that you know, you reap"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1948.68,"endTime":1951.8,"body":"what you sow, one thing leads to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1948.68,"endTime":1951.8,"body":"another and kind of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1951.83,"endTime":1955.7,"body":"understanding that as the nature"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1951.83,"endTime":1955.7,"body":"of reality is, that is a way of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1955.7,"endTime":1959.36,"body":"understanding addiction, you"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1955.7,"endTime":1959.36,"body":"know, if you act in this way,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1959.39,"endTime":1964.13,"body":"there will be consequences for"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1959.39,"endTime":1964.13,"body":"for you and others. So he uses"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1964.13,"endTime":1968.51,"body":"those ideas as as higher power"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1964.13,"endTime":1968.51,"body":"and he interprets the 12 steps."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1968.54,"endTime":1974.45,"body":"So he is a strongly kind of 12"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1968.54,"endTime":1974.45,"body":"step influenced thinker, but he"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1974.48,"endTime":1978.68,"body":"he interprets those through"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1974.48,"endTime":1978.68,"body":"through his Buddhist practice,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1978.68,"endTime":1982.91,"body":"basically. But then there are"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1978.68,"endTime":1982.91,"body":"other forms of Buddhist recovery"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1982.91,"endTime":1986.6,"body":"that don't refer to the 12"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1982.91,"endTime":1986.6,"body":"steps. So there's an"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1986.6,"endTime":1991.28,"body":"organisation called recovery"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1986.6,"endTime":1991.28,"body":"Dharma, which takes the idea of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1991.4,"endTime":1995.51,"body":"meetings and mutual aid. So"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1991.4,"endTime":1995.51,"body":"there are recovery Dharma"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1995.54,"endTime":1999.26,"body":"meetings all over the world."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1995.54,"endTime":1999.26,"body":"There's, there's some in the UK,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1999.35,"endTime":2005.2,"body":"and they use Buddhist teachings."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":1999.35,"endTime":2005.2,"body":"Key in the Buddhist worldview is"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2005.2,"endTime":2009.49,"body":"the idea of suffering and the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2005.2,"endTime":2009.49,"body":"idea of attachment and craving"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2009.52,"endTime":2014.5,"body":"and how attachment and craving"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2009.52,"endTime":2014.5,"body":"leads to suffering and kind of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2014.53,"endTime":2019.42,"body":"analysing that process in the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2014.53,"endTime":2019.42,"body":"context of First Person"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2019.42,"endTime":2023.47,"body":"experience of addiction and kind"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2019.42,"endTime":2023.47,"body":"of supportively sharing about"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2023.47,"endTime":2028.09,"body":"that in meetings and talking"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2023.47,"endTime":2028.09,"body":"about that. So Recovery Dharma"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2028.12,"endTime":2031.3,"body":"meetings function very"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2028.12,"endTime":2031.3,"body":"similarly, actually, to a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2031.3,"endTime":2034.69,"body":"meetings but they don't use the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2031.3,"endTime":2034.69,"body":"12 steps. They don't they don't"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2034.69,"endTime":2038.47,"body":"have a concept of higher power,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2034.69,"endTime":2038.47,"body":"unlike Kevin Griffin, but"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2038.47,"endTime":2041.71,"body":"they're they're becoming"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2038.47,"endTime":2041.71,"body":"increasingly popular. There's"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2041.71,"endTime":2048.01,"body":"also another Buddhist approach"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2041.71,"endTime":2048.01,"body":"where a vow is taken. So vows"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2048.07,"endTime":2052.54,"body":"are very kind of powerful ideas"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2048.07,"endTime":2052.54,"body":"in Buddhism, there's an idea of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2052.57,"endTime":2056.38,"body":"the vow made by a bodhisattva"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2052.57,"endTime":2056.38,"body":"that you know, they will become"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2056.38,"endTime":2060.79,"body":"awakened and and help others to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2056.38,"endTime":2060.79,"body":"become awakened. So in this"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2060.79,"endTime":2064.6,"body":"other form of Buddhist recovery"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2060.79,"endTime":2064.6,"body":"popularised by the teacher,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2064.6,"endTime":2069.61,"body":"Vince Cullen, he talks about"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2064.6,"endTime":2069.61,"body":"making a vow not to take"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2069.64,"endTime":2074.38,"body":"intoxicants. So there are five"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2069.64,"endTime":2074.38,"body":"precepts in Buddhism kind of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2074.38,"endTime":2077.59,"body":"practised all over the Buddhist"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2074.38,"endTime":2077.59,"body":"world. And the fifth of those"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2077.59,"endTime":2082.36,"body":"precepts is to avoid intoxicants"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2077.59,"endTime":2082.36,"body":"which which cloud the mind and"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2082.36,"endTime":2086.35,"body":"lead to carelessness or"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2082.36,"endTime":2086.35,"body":"heedlessness. So kind of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2086.35,"endTime":2091.33,"body":"mindfulness based understanding"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2086.35,"endTime":2091.33,"body":"of kind of the consequences of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2091.36,"endTime":2095.38,"body":"taking substances that cloud the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2091.36,"endTime":2095.38,"body":"mind. So Vince teaches about the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2095.38,"endTime":2099.49,"body":"power of making a vow to avoid"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2095.38,"endTime":2099.49,"body":"those substances. So his his"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2099.49,"endTime":2103.81,"body":"approach is a once and for all,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2099.49,"endTime":2103.81,"body":"Val, whereas Kevin Griffin's,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2103.81,"endTime":2108.43,"body":"which is much more aligned with"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2103.81,"endTime":2108.43,"body":"the 12 step world is much more"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2108.43,"endTime":2113.41,"body":"that day at a time approach that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2108.43,"endTime":2113.41,"body":"you find in a. So there's a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2113.41,"endTime":2118.42,"body":"whole variety of different"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2113.41,"endTime":2118.42,"body":"Buddhist ways of engaging in"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2118.45,"endTime":2121.69,"body":"addiction recovery. It's not"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2118.45,"endTime":2121.69,"body":"one, what is the Buddhist way?"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2121.69,"endTime":2125.08,"body":"There are lots of different but"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2121.69,"endTime":2125.08,"body":"it's approaches to this. And"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2125.08,"endTime":2128.23,"body":"then they're becoming, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2125.08,"endTime":2128.23,"body":"much more well, then there's"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2128.23,"endTime":2133.0,"body":"another type called the eight"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2128.23,"endTime":2133.0,"body":"step approach created by two"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2133.0,"endTime":2138.49,"body":"members of the Buddhist group"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2133.0,"endTime":2138.49,"body":"Triratna. So a black British"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2138.52,"endTime":2144.31,"body":"woman could Valerie-Mason John,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2138.52,"endTime":2144.31,"body":"and a psychiatrist called"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2144.34,"endTime":2149.8,"body":"Paramabandu Groves, so the eight"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2144.34,"endTime":2149.8,"body":"step programme, which obviously"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2149.83,"endTime":2154.72,"body":"draws on the idea of a step"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2149.83,"endTime":2154.72,"body":"approach to recovery, but it's"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2154.72,"endTime":2159.61,"body":"thinking much more in terms of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2154.72,"endTime":2159.61,"body":"mindfulness as as a way of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2159.61,"endTime":2164.53,"body":"thinking about addiction as a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2159.61,"endTime":2164.53,"body":"way of interrogating experience"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2164.56,"endTime":2168.55,"body":"and developing a kind of more"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2164.56,"endTime":2168.55,"body":"wholesome way of living."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2168.72,"endTime":2170.49,"body":"As you were"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2168.72,"endTime":2170.49,"body":"talking, I kept thinking about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2170.49,"endTime":2175.32,"body":"the ways in which these kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2170.49,"endTime":2175.32,"body":"Buddhist derived ideas or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2175.32,"endTime":2179.1,"body":"applications have been sort of,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2175.32,"endTime":2179.1,"body":"I think, in your paper reviewing"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2179.1,"endTime":2182.19,"body":"all of this, it's what's it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2179.1,"endTime":2182.19,"body":"called a neoliberal supplements"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2182.19,"endTime":2185.07,"body":"or something - the idea is that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2182.19,"endTime":2185.07,"body":"that you know, that these things"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2185.07,"endTime":2189.0,"body":"are being kind of taken from"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2185.07,"endTime":2189.0,"body":"Buddhism and used in ways in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2189.0,"endTime":2192.54,"body":"which presents a lot of kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2189.0,"endTime":2192.54,"body":"difficult questions. I mean, I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2192.54,"endTime":2197.46,"body":"like the term mindful drinking,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2192.54,"endTime":2197.46,"body":"because I think it's a good way"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2197.46,"endTime":2201.27,"body":"of encouraging people to think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2197.46,"endTime":2201.27,"body":"about what's going on when they"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2201.27,"endTime":2204.75,"body":"drink, what's their"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2201.27,"endTime":2204.75,"body":"physiological reactions, and how"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2204.75,"endTime":2208.05,"body":"does that affect their, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2204.75,"endTime":2208.05,"body":"know, psychological state?"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2208.11,"endTime":2211.29,"body":"That's certainly how I've boiled"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2208.11,"endTime":2211.29,"body":"it down in very simple terms."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2211.32,"endTime":2214.2,"body":"But yeah, it's a contradiction"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2211.32,"endTime":2214.2,"body":"in terms in some ways, when"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2214.2,"endTime":2217.47,"body":"you're talking about, like, vows"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2214.2,"endTime":2217.47,"body":"around non intoxicating"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2217.5,"endTime":2220.23,"body":"substances that, you know, the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2217.5,"endTime":2220.23,"body":"idea of my for drinking is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2220.29,"endTime":2222.0,"body":"paradoxical. In that sense,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2220.29,"endTime":2222.0,"body":"surely?"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2222.36,"endTime":2224.88,"body":"You know,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2222.36,"endTime":2224.88,"body":"Buddhism is very diverse in the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2224.88,"endTime":2228.12,"body":"kind of possible responses that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2224.88,"endTime":2228.12,"body":"you could have. It's"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2228.12,"endTime":2231.48,"body":"interesting, you should raise"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2228.12,"endTime":2231.48,"body":"that about neoliberalism. So in"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2231.51,"endTime":2234.57,"body":"in the academic literature,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2231.51,"endTime":2234.57,"body":"there's a kind of strong"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2234.57,"endTime":2238.74,"body":"critique of spirituality that I"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2234.57,"endTime":2238.74,"body":"find really powerful and"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2238.74,"endTime":2241.32,"body":"interesting, and always"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2238.74,"endTime":2241.32,"body":"important to consider, because"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2241.32,"endTime":2244.5,"body":"we've been talking about"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2241.32,"endTime":2244.5,"body":"spirituality is almost as if"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2244.5,"endTime":2248.61,"body":"it's an unambiguously good"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2244.5,"endTime":2248.61,"body":"thing. Hmm. And I think it's"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2248.61,"endTime":2252.18,"body":"worth kind of reflecting on"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2248.61,"endTime":2252.18,"body":"that. So, you know, some of the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2252.18,"endTime":2256.23,"body":"critiques of spirituality are"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2252.18,"endTime":2256.23,"body":"that we live in this kind of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2256.23,"endTime":2261.09,"body":"capitalist rat race, and"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2256.23,"endTime":2261.09,"body":"spiritual techniques are ways of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2261.12,"endTime":2264.84,"body":"enabling us to deal with the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2261.12,"endTime":2264.84,"body":"negative effects of that,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2265.41,"endTime":2268.95,"body":"enabling us to cope, but"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2265.41,"endTime":2268.95,"body":"therefore keeping that whole"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2268.95,"endTime":2273.54,"body":"capitalist rat race thing going,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2268.95,"endTime":2273.54,"body":"rather than setting up a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2273.57,"endTime":2277.41,"body":"critique of it. So I think when"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2273.57,"endTime":2277.41,"body":"you talk about spirituality, the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2277.41,"endTime":2281.01,"body":"importance of acceptance, and"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2277.41,"endTime":2281.01,"body":"the importance of forgiveness,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2281.04,"endTime":2285.21,"body":"and these are really important"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2281.04,"endTime":2285.21,"body":"concepts, but I think we need to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2285.21,"endTime":2290.01,"body":"remember that they have a kind"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2285.21,"endTime":2290.01,"body":"of shadow side, as well. So if"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2290.01,"endTime":2294.87,"body":"we accept absolutely everything,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2290.01,"endTime":2294.87,"body":"then we don't actually make"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2294.99,"endTime":2299.85,"body":"changes as individuals and at a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2294.99,"endTime":2299.85,"body":"social level that needs to be"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2299.85,"endTime":2303.6,"body":"made. So we never address social"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2299.85,"endTime":2303.6,"body":"injustice, or the kinds of in"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2303.6,"endTime":2308.43,"body":"justices that lead to addiction,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2303.6,"endTime":2308.43,"body":"you know, we know that addiction"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2308.43,"endTime":2311.79,"body":"is far more prevalent in"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2308.43,"endTime":2311.79,"body":"communities that are"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2311.82,"endTime":2315.21,"body":"disenfranchised, that are poor,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2311.82,"endTime":2315.21,"body":"that don't have access to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2315.21,"endTime":2319.59,"body":"resources. So if we say all"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2315.21,"endTime":2319.59,"body":"well, acceptance is the key to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2319.59,"endTime":2323.13,"body":"everything, we're never going to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2319.59,"endTime":2323.13,"body":"address those issues. So that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2323.13,"endTime":2327.63,"body":"critique of spirituality as"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2323.13,"endTime":2327.63,"body":"being potentially at least a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2327.63,"endTime":2331.83,"body":"kind of facilitator of of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2327.63,"endTime":2331.83,"body":"neoliberalism is is a really"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2331.83,"endTime":2336.15,"body":"important critique. And there's"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2331.83,"endTime":2336.15,"body":"also a concept called spiritual"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2336.15,"endTime":2340.17,"body":"bypassing, which I think he"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2336.15,"endTime":2340.17,"body":"needs to be heard more really,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2340.2,"endTime":2344.31,"body":"in, in the literature that it is"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2340.2,"endTime":2344.31,"body":"possible to kind of see"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2344.31,"endTime":2348.36,"body":"spirituality just as a kind of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2344.31,"endTime":2348.36,"body":"self soothing thing. And of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2348.36,"endTime":2351.54,"body":"course, self soothing is"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2348.36,"endTime":2351.54,"body":"important and self care is"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2351.54,"endTime":2356.94,"body":"important. But if that's all it"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2351.54,"endTime":2356.94,"body":"is, it can become very self"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2356.94,"endTime":2362.19,"body":"serving, and it becomes all"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2356.94,"endTime":2362.19,"body":"about the self feeling, okay?"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2362.22,"endTime":2367.56,"body":"Rather than having the courage"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2362.22,"endTime":2367.56,"body":"to make the changes in life that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2367.59,"endTime":2371.07,"body":"either as an individual you"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2367.59,"endTime":2371.07,"body":"might want to do or the social"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2371.07,"endTime":2374.1,"body":"level, you know, people Pat"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2371.07,"endTime":2374.1,"body":"themselves on the back for being"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2374.1,"endTime":2377.97,"body":"spiritual. I think that that is"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2374.1,"endTime":2377.97,"body":"potentially problematic."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2378.58,"endTime":2381.25,"body":"Yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2378.58,"endTime":2381.25,"body":"that's really thought provoking."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2381.28,"endTime":2386.02,"body":"And it just reminds me of, I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2381.28,"endTime":2386.02,"body":"think some of these groups of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2386.32,"endTime":2390.16,"body":"philosophies or whatever, are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2386.32,"endTime":2390.16,"body":"quite focused on on addressing"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2390.16,"endTime":2393.7,"body":"that on a in terms of, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2390.16,"endTime":2393.7,"body":"what, what can you do for others"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2393.7,"endTime":2394.81,"body":"rather than yourself?"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2394.84,"endTime":2398.26,"body":"Yeah. So the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2394.84,"endTime":2398.26,"body":"12 step programme, for instance,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2398.32,"endTime":2403.03,"body":"is a very kind of hardcore moral"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2398.32,"endTime":2403.03,"body":"discipline. So obviously not"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2403.03,"endTime":2406.96,"body":"everybody in a or the other 12"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2403.03,"endTime":2406.96,"body":"step fellowships decide that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2406.96,"endTime":2410.02,"body":"they want to work the 12 steps,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2406.96,"endTime":2410.02,"body":"they're free to or not as they"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2410.02,"endTime":2414.58,"body":"choose. But if they do choose"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2410.02,"endTime":2414.58,"body":"that route, then it is a very"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2414.67,"endTime":2420.91,"body":"challenging process to look at,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2414.67,"endTime":2420.91,"body":"you know, once past to consider"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2420.91,"endTime":2425.35,"body":"the wrongs that have been done"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2420.91,"endTime":2425.35,"body":"to others to become committed"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2425.38,"endTime":2431.56,"body":"to, to change to actually make"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2425.38,"endTime":2431.56,"body":"amends where that is possible to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2431.56,"endTime":2435.34,"body":"do so. And I mean, members of a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2431.56,"endTime":2435.34,"body":"will talk about this as a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2435.34,"endTime":2440.11,"body":"spiritual thing that amends may"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2435.34,"endTime":2440.11,"body":"take a lifetime amends may be"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2440.11,"endTime":2444.01,"body":"impossible to completely make,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2440.11,"endTime":2444.01,"body":"but this is actually about"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2444.01,"endTime":2448.09,"body":"action in the outside world,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2444.01,"endTime":2448.09,"body":"it's not simply sitting one to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2448.09,"endTime":2451.54,"body":"one with a counsellor, and"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2448.09,"endTime":2451.54,"body":"reflecting beneficial, though,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2451.54,"endTime":2455.56,"body":"that is, of course, this is"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2451.54,"endTime":2455.56,"body":"about kind of living in a"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2455.56,"endTime":2458.86,"body":"different way, many people might"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2455.56,"endTime":2458.86,"body":"hear that and think, Wow, that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2458.86,"endTime":2462.43,"body":"sounds really kind of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2458.86,"endTime":2462.43,"body":"moralistic. But in fact, the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2462.43,"endTime":2466.39,"body":"people who who work the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2462.43,"endTime":2466.39,"body":"programme will say that the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2466.39,"endTime":2472.0,"body":"power of doing that has enabled"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2466.39,"endTime":2472.0,"body":"them to come out of shame, to,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2472.45,"endTime":2476.11,"body":"to become comfortable in their"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2472.45,"endTime":2476.11,"body":"own skin to get to get some self"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2476.11,"endTime":2480.55,"body":"respect back that has been lost"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2476.11,"endTime":2480.55,"body":"in in the process of addiction"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2480.58,"endTime":2486.04,"body":"to become useful in society to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2480.58,"endTime":2486.04,"body":"actually see the reality of all"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2486.04,"endTime":2488.56,"body":"other people that they may have"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2486.04,"endTime":2488.56,"body":"harmed, and to become"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2488.56,"endTime":2492.82,"body":"accountable for that to live"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2488.56,"endTime":2492.82,"body":"differently. And then, so those"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2492.82,"endTime":2496.99,"body":"are really to do with steps four"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2492.82,"endTime":2496.99,"body":"to nine, and then steps 1011 and"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2496.99,"endTime":2501.64,"body":"12, are about kind of the"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2496.99,"endTime":2501.64,"body":"ongoing effort to to reach out"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2501.64,"endTime":2505.69,"body":"to other people who are still"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2501.64,"endTime":2505.69,"body":"suffering and to help. So that"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2505.69,"endTime":2510.37,"body":"to me, is not a kind of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2505.69,"endTime":2510.37,"body":"neoliberal, you know, let's all"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2510.37,"endTime":2514.24,"body":"get our stress relief and you"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2510.37,"endTime":2514.24,"body":"know, feel better, after a bit"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2514.24,"endTime":2518.62,"body":"of meditation, it's something"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2514.24,"endTime":2518.62,"body":"you know, kind of far more"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2518.65,"endTime":2523.0,"body":"outward looking than that. But"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2518.65,"endTime":2523.0,"body":"in saying that, I don't want to"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2523.27,"endTime":2527.77,"body":"belittle stress relief, and self"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2523.27,"endTime":2527.77,"body":"self soothing, and all of those"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2527.77,"endTime":2532.6,"body":"kinds of practices, self care,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2527.77,"endTime":2532.6,"body":"because those are absolutely"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2532.6,"endTime":2536.98,"body":"crucial. If you if you are going"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2532.6,"endTime":2536.98,"body":"to do anything else, people who"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2537.01,"endTime":2542.29,"body":"who experienced addiction report"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2537.01,"endTime":2542.29,"body":"how difficult it is to to relax,"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2542.32,"endTime":2546.91,"body":"to sleep, you know, all of those"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2542.32,"endTime":2546.91,"body":"things, and kind of learning new"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2546.91,"endTime":2550.54,"body":"techniques to do those things is"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2546.91,"endTime":2550.54,"body":"absolutely crucial parts of"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2550.54,"endTime":2555.25,"body":"recovery. And those techniques"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2550.54,"endTime":2555.25,"body":"are one at delivering that it's"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2555.25,"endTime":2558.07,"body":"just I think it's problematic if"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2555.25,"endTime":2558.07,"body":"it stops there."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2558.25,"endTime":2560.89,"body":"I think that's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2558.25,"endTime":2560.89,"body":"really nicely put in that we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2560.89,"endTime":2565.57,"body":"want people to find their way"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2560.89,"endTime":2565.57,"body":"out of addiction or find"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2565.57,"endTime":2569.86,"body":"recovery in whatever way works"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2565.57,"endTime":2569.86,"body":"for them. And for that to reach"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2569.86,"endTime":2573.04,"body":"as many people as possible, even"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2569.86,"endTime":2573.04,"body":"if it might look or sound"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2573.07,"endTime":2576.19,"body":"completely different to that."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2573.07,"endTime":2576.19,"body":"But at the same time Exactly. As"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2576.19,"endTime":2579.16,"body":"he said, we have to think about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2576.19,"endTime":2579.16,"body":"what are the structural what are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2579.16,"endTime":2582.13,"body":"the wider drivers and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2579.16,"endTime":2582.13,"body":"determinants of that. And we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2582.16,"endTime":2585.94,"body":"absolutely know that the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2582.16,"endTime":2585.94,"body":"increasing inequality, this kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2585.94,"endTime":2589.93,"body":"of focus on mindless consumerism"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2585.94,"endTime":2589.93,"body":"and trying to make yourself feel"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2589.93,"endTime":2593.41,"body":"better in the moment that's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2589.93,"endTime":2593.41,"body":"being kind of fed from us a much"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2593.44,"endTime":2597.22,"body":"more meta level is working"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2593.44,"endTime":2597.22,"body":"against us in terms of driving"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2597.22,"endTime":2600.31,"body":"addiction. And plus, I think, as"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2597.22,"endTime":2600.31,"body":"I understand it, kind of Bruce"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2600.31,"endTime":2604.33,"body":"Alexander and lots of kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2600.31,"endTime":2604.33,"body":"authors who talk about that. So"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2604.48,"endTime":2608.29,"body":"I think that's been fantastic."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2604.48,"endTime":2608.29,"body":"So much food for thought for me,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2608.29,"endTime":2611.62,"body":"particularly, and we'll kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2608.29,"endTime":2611.62,"body":"leave it there."},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2611.71,"endTime":2612.91,"body":"Thanks for"},{"speaker":"Dr Wendy Dossett","startTime":2611.71,"endTime":2612.91,"body":"having me on."}]}