{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":0.69,"endTime":3.39,"body":"So Hi, Tom, thanks"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":0.69,"endTime":3.39,"body":"so much for joining us. Can you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3.39,"endTime":6.66,"body":"tell us a bit about yourself and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3.39,"endTime":6.66,"body":"issues perhaps you think are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":6.66,"endTime":9.81,"body":"really interesting from a kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":6.66,"endTime":9.81,"body":"of outside perspective from the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":9.81,"endTime":10.56,"body":"alcohol field?"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":10.81,"endTime":13.63,"body":"Okay, sure. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":10.81,"endTime":13.63,"body":"my name is Tom Chivers, I am a"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":13.63,"endTime":16.81,"body":"science journalist. My job title"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":13.63,"endTime":16.81,"body":"is science editor Tom Hurd. And"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":16.81,"endTime":19.72,"body":"I'm the author of a couple of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":16.81,"endTime":19.72,"body":"books most recent one was called"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":19.75,"endTime":24.28,"body":"How to Read numbers. And it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":19.75,"endTime":24.28,"body":"about how numbers in the news go"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":24.28,"endTime":27.97,"body":"wrong and how people can learn"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":24.28,"endTime":27.97,"body":"to trust or learn when to trust"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":27.97,"endTime":30.88,"body":"statistics and things that they"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":27.97,"endTime":30.88,"body":"read in or see in the media. And"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":30.88,"endTime":33.85,"body":"I suppose the stuff that I'm"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":30.88,"endTime":33.85,"body":"most interested in is risk"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":33.85,"endTime":36.88,"body":"communication, how these how the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":33.85,"endTime":36.88,"body":"numbers and how the sort of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":36.88,"endTime":40.78,"body":"information about alcohol"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":36.88,"endTime":40.78,"body":"behaviour, alcohol risk, and any"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":40.81,"endTime":42.7,"body":"any sort of health related"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":40.81,"endTime":42.7,"body":"behaviour or anything at all,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":42.7,"endTime":45.52,"body":"how that makes how the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":42.7,"endTime":45.52,"body":"information makes it from the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":45.52,"endTime":48.46,"body":"scientific community from"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":45.52,"endTime":48.46,"body":"scientific studies, the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":48.46,"endTime":51.58,"body":"population surveys, epidemiology"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":48.46,"endTime":51.58,"body":"and so on into public"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":51.58,"endTime":54.13,"body":"understanding. And that's"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":51.58,"endTime":54.13,"body":"obviously mediated via science"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":54.13,"endTime":57.46,"body":"journalists like me and the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":54.13,"endTime":57.46,"body":"media as a whole. And I think"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":57.76,"endTime":60.16,"body":"that is probably the stuff I'm"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":57.76,"endTime":60.16,"body":"most interested in."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":60.25,"endTime":62.59,"body":"And I guess, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":60.25,"endTime":62.59,"body":"know, the classic example, the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":62.59,"endTime":65.38,"body":"kind of ongoing issue around"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":62.59,"endTime":65.38,"body":"this is the recommended"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":65.38,"endTime":69.19,"body":"guidelines, you know, currently"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":65.38,"endTime":69.19,"body":"14 units a week, which were"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":69.31,"endTime":73.57,"body":"revised again in 2016. And, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":69.31,"endTime":73.57,"body":"know, within the public health"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":73.6,"endTime":77.38,"body":"community, there's ongoing"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":73.6,"endTime":77.38,"body":"debates and tensions about is it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":77.38,"endTime":81.16,"body":"useful word and how its"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":77.38,"endTime":81.16,"body":"interpreted. And obviously,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":81.16,"endTime":84.1,"body":"amongst the public at large,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":81.16,"endTime":84.1,"body":"there tends to be this well,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":84.1,"endTime":87.37,"body":"often low awareness of it, but"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":84.1,"endTime":87.37,"body":"particularly, we see people who"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":87.37,"endTime":90.4,"body":"drink above the guidelines tend"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":87.37,"endTime":90.4,"body":"to discount it, because it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":90.4,"endTime":92.62,"body":"kind of not congruent with their"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":90.4,"endTime":92.62,"body":"behaviour. So that kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":92.62,"endTime":95.56,"body":"motivated reasoning approach."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":92.62,"endTime":95.56,"body":"But yeah, I think the media has"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":95.56,"endTime":98.59,"body":"a large role to play in that in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":95.56,"endTime":98.59,"body":"terms of, as you say, just"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":98.59,"endTime":103.36,"body":"reporting individual studies in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":98.59,"endTime":103.36,"body":"ways that kind of attention"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":103.36,"endTime":107.02,"body":"grabbing or headline, maybe they"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":103.36,"endTime":107.02,"body":"receive or clickbait. So, yeah,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":107.02,"endTime":108.73,"body":"that's the kind of classic"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":107.02,"endTime":108.73,"body":"example, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":108.88,"endTime":110.32,"body":"Yeah, the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":108.88,"endTime":110.32,"body":"guidelines, I think, are a"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":110.32,"endTime":112.99,"body":"really interesting thing,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":110.32,"endTime":112.99,"body":"because they have this this sort"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":112.99,"endTime":117.1,"body":"of this hard cutoff, right? You"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":112.99,"endTime":117.1,"body":"know, you said the 1414 units is"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":117.1,"endTime":120.37,"body":"your recommended level, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":117.1,"endTime":120.37,"body":"know, or whatever. And there's a"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":120.37,"endTime":123.58,"body":"sort of sense that there is a"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":120.37,"endTime":123.58,"body":"low that is finally above that"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":123.58,"endTime":126.73,"body":"is bad, you know, and that's"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":123.58,"endTime":126.73,"body":"just how it runs. And I think"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":126.73,"endTime":130.06,"body":"there's what we what needs to be"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":126.73,"endTime":130.06,"body":"communicated a lot more is that"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":130.06,"endTime":132.34,"body":"actually, there's, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":130.06,"endTime":132.34,"body":"that that's not how it works,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":132.34,"endTime":135.91,"body":"there's this really, this is a"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":132.34,"endTime":135.91,"body":"sliding scale of impact. And"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":135.91,"endTime":138.31,"body":"actually, you know, if you drank"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":135.91,"endTime":138.31,"body":"13, instead of units a week"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":138.31,"endTime":140.74,"body":"instead of 15, or something like"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":138.31,"endTime":140.74,"body":"that, it's fundamentally it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":140.74,"endTime":143.59,"body":"not, there's some sharp cut off,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":140.74,"endTime":143.59,"body":"it is a fairly arbitrary level."},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":143.62,"endTime":146.38,"body":"But you know, what I also think"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":143.62,"endTime":146.38,"body":"is really problematic with it is"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":146.38,"endTime":149.14,"body":"that they're just saying 14"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":146.38,"endTime":149.14,"body":"level units is the safe level"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":149.17,"endTime":151.54,"body":"right there. That is the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":149.17,"endTime":151.54,"body":"recommended level, it doesn't"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":151.57,"endTime":154.39,"body":"actually give people the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":151.57,"endTime":154.39,"body":"information, they need to make"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":154.39,"endTime":157.03,"body":"decisions about their own health"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":154.39,"endTime":157.03,"body":"behaviour, their whole"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":157.03,"endTime":159.94,"body":"behaviour, like, I think I'm"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":157.03,"endTime":159.94,"body":"sure you're aware of David"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":159.94,"endTime":163.09,"body":"Spiegelhalter, the statistician,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":159.94,"endTime":163.09,"body":"he wants people to talk about"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":163.12,"endTime":166.6,"body":"the risk impact on individuals."},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":163.12,"endTime":166.6,"body":"And so you know, if I, if what"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":166.6,"endTime":168.79,"body":"we want, what you really want to"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":166.6,"endTime":168.79,"body":"know is, if I drink an extra"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":168.79,"endTime":171.55,"body":"glass of wine, how likely is"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":168.79,"endTime":171.55,"body":"that to cause health problems"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":171.55,"endTime":174.46,"body":"for me to further down the line?"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":171.55,"endTime":174.46,"body":"So what is really important when"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":174.46,"endTime":176.65,"body":"you're talking about risk"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":174.46,"endTime":176.65,"body":"presentation is like, how many"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":176.65,"endTime":179.29,"body":"people does it actually affect"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":176.65,"endTime":179.29,"body":"if I do change my behaviour in"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":179.29,"endTime":180.94,"body":"this way, and it's and it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":179.29,"endTime":180.94,"body":"something that if it was"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":180.94,"endTime":183.52,"body":"something like 50, people out of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":180.94,"endTime":183.52,"body":"every 100,000 would would have"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":183.7,"endTime":186.16,"body":"an alcohol related disease they"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":183.7,"endTime":186.16,"body":"don't know, wouldn't normally"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":186.16,"endTime":188.89,"body":"have, if they drink, I think"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":186.16,"endTime":188.89,"body":"it's something like two drinks a"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":188.89,"endTime":192.04,"body":"day, you know, also, and I think"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":188.89,"endTime":192.04,"body":"so. So what is really important"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":192.04,"endTime":195.43,"body":"there is to, is to provide these"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":192.04,"endTime":195.43,"body":"numbers so that someone who I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":195.43,"endTime":198.43,"body":"mean, my cousin, David, who I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":195.43,"endTime":198.43,"body":"wrote the book with how to read"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":198.43,"endTime":201.16,"body":"numbers, he is a big big wine"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":198.43,"endTime":201.16,"body":"fan, he'll spend, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":201.22,"endTime":203.35,"body":"loads more money on a bottle of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":201.22,"endTime":203.35,"body":"really nice wine than I ever"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":203.35,"endTime":205.57,"body":"would, because he has, he's able"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":203.35,"endTime":205.57,"body":"to taste these differences and"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":205.57,"endTime":207.82,"body":"understand it, and it matters to"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":205.57,"endTime":207.82,"body":"him, right. And he and if we"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":207.82,"endTime":210.46,"body":"were to take wine out of his"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":207.82,"endTime":210.46,"body":"life, then he would have a much"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":210.46,"endTime":212.41,"body":"less fun life. Because it's a"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":210.46,"endTime":212.41,"body":"really big, you know, it's a"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":212.41,"endTime":214.75,"body":"really enjoyable, you know, in"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":212.41,"endTime":214.75,"body":"this, you know, later hobby for"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":214.75,"endTime":217.75,"body":"him. And so he might look at"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":214.75,"endTime":217.75,"body":"that, you might say, well, if I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":217.75,"endTime":220.45,"body":"drink two drinks a day, and that"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":217.75,"endTime":220.45,"body":"gives me this 50 and 100,000, or"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":220.45,"endTime":223.48,"body":"whatever chance of a disease"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":220.45,"endTime":223.48,"body":"that I otherwise wouldn't have."},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":223.51,"endTime":226.81,"body":"But on the other hand, I get"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":223.51,"endTime":226.81,"body":"loads of benefit out of it. So"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":226.81,"endTime":230.89,"body":"that slight risk was like a real"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":226.81,"endTime":230.89,"body":"risk should be taken into"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":230.89,"endTime":234.01,"body":"account, but also those, it"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":230.89,"endTime":234.01,"body":"should be weighed against the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":234.01,"endTime":237.37,"body":"very real reality that I will"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":234.01,"endTime":237.37,"body":"have less fun in life. And I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":237.37,"endTime":240.25,"body":"might trade off for some, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":237.37,"endTime":240.25,"body":"know, small risk of having a"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":240.25,"endTime":243.73,"body":"shorter life against a very"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":240.25,"endTime":243.73,"body":"definite chance that I will"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":243.73,"endTime":245.98,"body":"enjoy life more if I do these"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":243.73,"endTime":245.98,"body":"things. So I think that you know"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":246.01,"endTime":249.31,"body":"that I think that is really the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":246.01,"endTime":249.31,"body":"fundamental issue with"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":249.34,"endTime":251.98,"body":"guidelines and with risk"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":249.34,"endTime":251.98,"body":"presentation in general is that"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":251.98,"endTime":255.64,"body":"this sort of oversimplification"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":251.98,"endTime":255.64,"body":"this select here is a safe level"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":255.82,"endTime":258.43,"body":"above it is bad below it is good"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":255.82,"endTime":258.43,"body":"doesn't actually give you"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":258.43,"endTime":260.83,"body":"information you need to navigate"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":258.43,"endTime":260.83,"body":"the world to make decisions,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":260.83,"endTime":263.47,"body":"informed decisions about what is"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":260.83,"endTime":263.47,"body":"the right decision for my"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":263.56,"endTime":267.46,"body":"health, nice sort of quality of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":263.56,"endTime":267.46,"body":"life, I think, I don't know how"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":267.46,"endTime":269.92,"body":"you go about changing the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":267.46,"endTime":269.92,"body":"guideline system to something"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":269.92,"endTime":272.59,"body":"like that. But I certainly think"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":269.92,"endTime":272.59,"body":"we in the media can do more to"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":272.62,"endTime":276.28,"body":"present these numbers in a way"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":272.62,"endTime":276.28,"body":"that's meaningful for readers"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":276.28,"endTime":278.74,"body":"rather than just sort of start"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":276.28,"endTime":278.74,"body":"cut offs, which really flatten"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":278.74,"endTime":281.44,"body":"and compress information beyond"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":278.74,"endTime":281.44,"body":"use."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":281.65,"endTime":283.27,"body":"And I think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":281.65,"endTime":283.27,"body":"there's quite a few kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":283.27,"endTime":286.9,"body":"inherent tensions within it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":283.27,"endTime":286.9,"body":"because exactly as you say, a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":286.93,"endTime":291.73,"body":"having a single one size fits"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":286.93,"endTime":291.73,"body":"all arbitrary cutoff is no just"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":291.76,"endTime":295.06,"body":"just problematic on so many"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":291.76,"endTime":295.06,"body":"levels, not least because people"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":295.06,"endTime":297.82,"body":"look at that and they will just"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":295.06,"endTime":297.82,"body":"know that there are individual"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":297.82,"endTime":302.05,"body":"variations, not just in terms of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":297.82,"endTime":302.05,"body":"physiological reactions to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":302.05,"endTime":305.5,"body":"alcohol, but in terms of exactly"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":302.05,"endTime":305.5,"body":"as you say that the value that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":305.5,"endTime":308.59,"body":"individually we might place on"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":305.5,"endTime":308.59,"body":"alcohol, you know, some people"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":308.65,"endTime":311.68,"body":"are massively fast about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":308.65,"endTime":311.68,"body":"drinking, don't drink at all for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":311.8,"endTime":314.47,"body":"that, and other reasons. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":311.8,"endTime":314.47,"body":"other people value it highly,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":314.47,"endTime":317.38,"body":"because they're really into wine"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":314.47,"endTime":317.38,"body":"or you know, it's a big part of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":317.38,"endTime":320.71,"body":"their social lives, or their"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":317.38,"endTime":320.71,"body":"work culture, or whatever. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":320.71,"endTime":323.68,"body":"those are all very complex"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":320.71,"endTime":323.68,"body":"factors that that kind of come"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":323.68,"endTime":326.5,"body":"into play. So just trying to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":323.68,"endTime":326.5,"body":"Yeah, presenting it as a kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":326.5,"endTime":330.07,"body":"one size fits all is gonna just"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":326.5,"endTime":330.07,"body":"not resonate with people. But"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":330.1,"endTime":332.83,"body":"the really difficult thing is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":330.1,"endTime":332.83,"body":"that, you know, in terms of risk"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":332.83,"endTime":336.52,"body":"communication, if you're trying"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":332.83,"endTime":336.52,"body":"to appeal to people who have"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":336.55,"endTime":340.93,"body":"perhaps low level of motivation"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":336.55,"endTime":340.93,"body":"to kind of process or think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":340.93,"endTime":344.71,"body":"about a particular issue, they"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":340.93,"endTime":344.71,"body":"will be biassed towards, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":344.71,"endTime":348.22,"body":"know, very simplified"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":344.71,"endTime":348.22,"body":"interpretations of things,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":348.25,"endTime":351.73,"body":"possibly that then allow them to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":348.25,"endTime":351.73,"body":"kind of come to their the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":351.73,"endTime":354.58,"body":"conclusion that they want. So,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":351.73,"endTime":354.58,"body":"for instance, heavy drinkers,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":354.61,"endTime":357.16,"body":"you know, my research kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":354.61,"endTime":357.16,"body":"looks at how people, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":357.16,"endTime":361.3,"body":"differences between thinking"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":357.16,"endTime":361.3,"body":"categorical binary ways Evie, or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":361.3,"endTime":363.82,"body":"problem drink, or you're not"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":361.3,"endTime":363.82,"body":"versus more of a kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":363.82,"endTime":367.18,"body":"spectrum approach. And heavy"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":363.82,"endTime":367.18,"body":"drinkers often are kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":367.18,"endTime":370.06,"body":"biassed towards that categorical"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":367.18,"endTime":370.06,"body":"way. Because they might be able"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":370.06,"endTime":372.46,"body":"to say, Well, you know, I'm not"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":370.06,"endTime":372.46,"body":"an alcoholic, therefore, I don't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":372.46,"endTime":375.4,"body":"have a problem. And similarly,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":372.46,"endTime":375.4,"body":"they might just say, well, the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":375.4,"endTime":378.4,"body":"guidelines rubbish, because it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":375.4,"endTime":378.4,"body":"a one size fits all, so I'm not"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":378.4,"endTime":381.01,"body":"going to pay any attention to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":378.4,"endTime":381.01,"body":"it. But then we also, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":381.01,"endTime":385.03,"body":"just as humans innately have a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":381.01,"endTime":385.03,"body":"tendency towards simplifying"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":385.03,"endTime":388.48,"body":"things that, you know, if we saw"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":385.03,"endTime":388.48,"body":"the world in or looked at"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":388.48,"endTime":391.27,"body":"everything that we came across,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":388.48,"endTime":391.27,"body":"in all its complexity we'd never"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":391.27,"endTime":394.15,"body":"get anywhere. So we have to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":391.27,"endTime":394.15,"body":"categorise and produce things"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":394.15,"endTime":397.33,"body":"down. So there's that tension"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":394.15,"endTime":397.33,"body":"between, you know, presenting a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":397.33,"endTime":401.29,"body":"guideline, that simple and that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":397.33,"endTime":401.29,"body":"people can understand versus all"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":401.29,"endTime":403.75,"body":"of those complications, just"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":401.29,"endTime":403.75,"body":"that we started to kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":403.75,"endTime":404.98,"body":"scratch the surface on."},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":405.07,"endTime":406.69,"body":"Yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":405.07,"endTime":406.69,"body":"you're absolutely right. It's"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":406.69,"endTime":409.27,"body":"not as straightforward as loving"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":406.69,"endTime":409.27,"body":"people have limited time in"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":409.27,"endTime":411.94,"body":"their day and don't want to say"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":409.27,"endTime":411.94,"body":"don't want to start working out"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":411.94,"endTime":415.15,"body":"their risks and benefits and so"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":411.94,"endTime":415.15,"body":"on. But I think it is also the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":415.15,"endTime":418.3,"body":"case that this sort of, like if"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":415.15,"endTime":418.3,"body":"you do flatten it down to a"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":418.3,"endTime":422.56,"body":"simple for 14 units is the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":418.3,"endTime":422.56,"body":"correct amount, then you'll have"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":422.56,"endTime":424.87,"body":"people making the wrong"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":422.56,"endTime":424.87,"body":"decisions for their own"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":424.87,"endTime":427.33,"body":"enjoyment. Yeah, there are a lot"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":424.87,"endTime":427.33,"body":"of people I know who just don't"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":427.33,"endTime":429.73,"body":"drink alcohol, and that is fine."},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":427.33,"endTime":429.73,"body":"But we should also not avert our"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":429.73,"endTime":432.25,"body":"eyes too much from the fact that"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":429.73,"endTime":432.25,"body":"people do drink alcohol enjoy it"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":432.28,"endTime":434.74,"body":"have have a positive"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":432.28,"endTime":434.74,"body":"relationship with it, which may"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":434.74,"endTime":437.08,"body":"come at some cost to their"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":434.74,"endTime":437.08,"body":"health, but which is, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":437.11,"endTime":439.12,"body":"valuable in its own right. And I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":437.11,"endTime":439.12,"body":"think there's a real thing in"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":439.12,"endTime":442.63,"body":"public health in general, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":439.12,"endTime":442.63,"body":"mean, of almost just discounting"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":442.63,"endTime":445.42,"body":"the idea that things can be fun,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":442.63,"endTime":445.42,"body":"right things other people have"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":445.45,"endTime":448.51,"body":"enjoyment I could people do"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":445.45,"endTime":448.51,"body":"risky behaviours and the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":448.51,"endTime":451.15,"body":"knowledge that they will come at"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":448.51,"endTime":451.15,"body":"some cost to they're likely"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":451.15,"endTime":453.91,"body":"helpful, they're likely they"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":451.15,"endTime":453.91,"body":"might might get hurt, doing"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":453.94,"endTime":456.52,"body":"skydiving, I don't know. And"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":453.94,"endTime":456.52,"body":"that is that needs to be taken"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":456.52,"endTime":458.71,"body":"into account, you know. So it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":456.52,"endTime":458.71,"body":"the economists idea of the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":458.71,"endTime":461.38,"body":"personal preference, and we know"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":458.71,"endTime":461.38,"body":"that they are rationally"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":461.41,"endTime":464.83,"body":"choosing enjoyment in the short"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":461.41,"endTime":464.83,"body":"term over long life in the long"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":464.83,"endTime":467.56,"body":"term, I think that needs to be"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":464.83,"endTime":467.56,"body":"sort of addressed. And people"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":467.56,"endTime":471.01,"body":"I'm aware of people who say"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":467.56,"endTime":471.01,"body":"gigantically misinterpret the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":471.01,"endTime":475.03,"body":"actual risk of drinking above 14"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":471.01,"endTime":475.03,"body":"units, and therefore don't drink"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":475.03,"endTime":476.98,"body":"at all drink tiny amounts,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":475.03,"endTime":476.98,"body":"because I think it is really"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":476.98,"endTime":478.93,"body":"high risk. And also, I know"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":476.98,"endTime":478.93,"body":"people who sit here look at this"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":478.93,"endTime":481.18,"body":"video, well, don't drink far too"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":478.93,"endTime":481.18,"body":"much, because I think, well,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":481.18,"endTime":484.36,"body":"this is silly. And it's and I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":481.18,"endTime":484.36,"body":"think, not merely that I'm"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":484.36,"endTime":486.61,"body":"saying they their decisions are"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":484.36,"endTime":486.61,"body":"wrong, but I think they're"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":486.61,"endTime":490.51,"body":"making decisions on badly on"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":486.61,"endTime":490.51,"body":"their own terms, they are not"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":490.51,"endTime":492.55,"body":"drinking alcohol, because they"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":490.51,"endTime":492.55,"body":"think it is riskier than it is"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":492.55,"endTime":494.41,"body":"or they are drinking too much"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":492.55,"endTime":494.41,"body":"because they are sort of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":494.41,"endTime":496.72,"body":"ignoring the risks that they are"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":494.41,"endTime":496.72,"body":"and I think the important thing"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":496.72,"endTime":500.14,"body":"is giving people information to"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":496.72,"endTime":500.14,"body":"make these decisions in a"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":500.17,"endTime":503.38,"body":"rational way. So they can say"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":500.17,"endTime":503.38,"body":"yeah, the value of me enjoying"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":503.38,"endTime":506.83,"body":"it is x, the value of my"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":503.38,"endTime":506.83,"body":"continued health past the age of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":506.83,"endTime":510.82,"body":"70 is why and I consider x to be"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":506.83,"endTime":510.82,"body":"bigger than y you know, that"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":510.82,"endTime":513.37,"body":"that is that is I think we need"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":510.82,"endTime":513.37,"body":"to let people make these"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":513.37,"endTime":516.85,"body":"decisions as sort of fully and"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":513.37,"endTime":516.85,"body":"rationally as you can"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":517.21,"endTime":520.03,"body":"Of course the kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":517.21,"endTime":520.03,"body":"of critical psychologist in me"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":520.03,"endTime":523.15,"body":"will say, you know, how how"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":520.03,"endTime":523.15,"body":"capable are we of making"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":523.15,"endTime":526.15,"body":"rational decisions because of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":523.15,"endTime":526.15,"body":"motivated reasoning, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":526.15,"endTime":530.62,"body":"we're, we're very strongly drawn"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":526.15,"endTime":530.62,"body":"towards often kind of thought"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":530.62,"endTime":534.16,"body":"processes that justify our"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":530.62,"endTime":534.16,"body":"existing behaviours, rather than"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":534.16,"endTime":536.92,"body":"starting off with a thought"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":534.16,"endTime":536.92,"body":"process and then deciding what"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":536.92,"endTime":539.65,"body":"our behaviour is going to be but"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":536.92,"endTime":539.65,"body":"it's a bit of an aside because"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":539.68,"endTime":542.29,"body":"you know, I totally do agree"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":539.68,"endTime":542.29,"body":"that that the public health"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":542.29,"endTime":545.53,"body":"community and I think I've been"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":542.29,"endTime":545.53,"body":"guilty of this in the past can"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":545.53,"endTime":549.55,"body":"be a bit too siloed about well,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":545.53,"endTime":549.55,"body":"you know, there are lots of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":549.58,"endTime":552.94,"body":"people who drink heavily and you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":549.58,"endTime":552.94,"body":"know, we've got you know, over a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":552.94,"endTime":556.03,"body":"million people with some kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":552.94,"endTime":556.03,"body":"alcohol related hospital"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":556.03,"endTime":559.69,"body":"admission each year and many of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":556.03,"endTime":559.69,"body":"those you know, don't fit the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":559.69,"endTime":562.96,"body":"stereotype of being a problem"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":559.69,"endTime":562.96,"body":"drinker and you know, maybe the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":562.96,"endTime":566.05,"body":"alcohol is just contributed"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":562.96,"endTime":566.05,"body":"partly to their high blood"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":566.05,"endTime":568.9,"body":"pressure or any huge number of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":566.05,"endTime":568.9,"body":"conditions that alcohol is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":568.9,"endTime":572.44,"body":"associated with it's quite easy"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":568.9,"endTime":572.44,"body":"to get kind of drawn into that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":572.44,"endTime":575.47,"body":"and and forget about the you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":572.44,"endTime":575.47,"body":"know, that there's still a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":575.47,"endTime":579.13,"body":"majority of people that drink"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":575.47,"endTime":579.13,"body":"within the guidelines or at"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":579.13,"endTime":582.58,"body":"least close to them most of the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":579.13,"endTime":582.58,"body":"time and won't experience any"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":582.58,"endTime":586.39,"body":"serious health effects at least"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":582.58,"endTime":586.39,"body":"throughout their lifetime. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":586.42,"endTime":589.42,"body":"yes, it is really important you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":586.42,"endTime":589.42,"body":"know, I drink you know, I drink"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":589.42,"endTime":592.36,"body":"moderately having had you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":589.42,"endTime":592.36,"body":"kind of past problems and a long"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":592.36,"endTime":595.81,"body":"period of not drinking but I do"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":592.36,"endTime":595.81,"body":"think I obviously drink because"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":595.81,"endTime":599.89,"body":"I believe that alcohol enhances"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":595.81,"endTime":599.89,"body":"aspects of my social life or you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":599.89,"endTime":603.22,"body":"know, Having a drink or two does"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":599.89,"endTime":603.22,"body":"relax me. And there's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":603.22,"endTime":607.45,"body":"interesting questions about that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":603.22,"endTime":607.45,"body":"in terms of what my motives are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":607.45,"endTime":610.87,"body":"or whether that how much of that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":607.45,"endTime":610.87,"body":"is expectancies because, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":610.87,"endTime":613.06,"body":"know, just have an idea that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":610.87,"endTime":613.06,"body":"alcohol is going to cause this"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":613.06,"endTime":616.18,"body":"effect. So a lot of might be"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":613.06,"endTime":616.18,"body":"psychological more than it is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":616.36,"endTime":619.36,"body":"the actual physiological"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":616.36,"endTime":619.36,"body":"effects. So, yeah, I totally,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":619.39,"endTime":623.62,"body":"totally agree that to have a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":619.39,"endTime":623.62,"body":"balanced and balanced debate and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":623.62,"endTime":627.01,"body":"nurture kind of more informed"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":623.62,"endTime":627.01,"body":"decision making, we absolutely"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":627.01,"endTime":630.79,"body":"can't ignore the the kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":627.01,"endTime":630.79,"body":"value that people place on Alcoa"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":630.79,"endTime":632.89,"body":"and much of it very"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":630.79,"endTime":632.89,"body":"legitimately. So no,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":632.909,"endTime":635.999,"body":"I agree with you."},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":632.909,"endTime":635.999,"body":"You're sort of your aside his"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":635.999,"endTime":638.579,"body":"own, it's quite an important"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":635.999,"endTime":638.579,"body":"aside right there, people aren't"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":638.579,"endTime":641.369,"body":"rational, and people do make"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":638.579,"endTime":641.369,"body":"decisions that are bad for them"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":641.369,"endTime":645.779,"body":"in various ways, you know, and I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":641.369,"endTime":645.779,"body":"think that is worth is worth"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":645.779,"endTime":648.149,"body":"keeping really quite close to"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":645.779,"endTime":648.149,"body":"the forefront of your mind, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":648.149,"endTime":651.959,"body":"think what you need to do is"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":648.149,"endTime":651.959,"body":"start by assuming that people"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":651.959,"endTime":653.909,"body":"broadly know best for"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":651.959,"endTime":653.909,"body":"themselves, right, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":653.909,"endTime":656.129,"body":"they're not in that, and then"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":653.909,"endTime":656.129,"body":"you can sort of go from there."},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":656.129,"endTime":658.919,"body":"Well, actually, I think I think"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":656.129,"endTime":658.919,"body":"the one case, for instance, that"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":658.919,"endTime":662.099,"body":"I think was instructive here is"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":658.919,"endTime":662.099,"body":"smoking. I think actually,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":662.279,"endTime":667.439,"body":"almost all smokers of tobacco"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":662.279,"endTime":667.439,"body":"cigarettes will tell you I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":667.439,"endTime":671.339,"body":"would, I haven't got any studies"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":667.439,"endTime":671.339,"body":"to hear by hand. But I'm"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":671.399,"endTime":674.399,"body":"reasonably sure I've read this."},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":671.399,"endTime":674.399,"body":"And I hope people can write to"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":674.399,"endTime":676.709,"body":"me and tell me if I'm completely"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":674.399,"endTime":676.709,"body":"wrong. If If I am, I think a"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":676.709,"endTime":679.229,"body":"large majority would say I would"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":676.709,"endTime":679.229,"body":"like to quit smoking, I know"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":679.229,"endTime":682.289,"body":"it's bad for me the the costs of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":679.229,"endTime":682.289,"body":"my health outweigh the benefits"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":682.289,"endTime":684.989,"body":"I get, but I find it hard to"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":682.289,"endTime":684.989,"body":"quit. And I think that most of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":684.989,"endTime":687.509,"body":"us would agree that is by their"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":684.989,"endTime":687.509,"body":"own on their own terms and"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":687.509,"endTime":690.629,"body":"irrational behaviour, but they"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":687.509,"endTime":690.629,"body":"are forced into it by addiction,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":690.629,"endTime":692.789,"body":"which is limiting their freedom."},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":690.629,"endTime":692.789,"body":"Right? That is that is a"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":692.789,"endTime":694.709,"body":"difficult thing. And I think"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":692.789,"endTime":694.709,"body":"what would be an interesting"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":694.709,"endTime":697.679,"body":"comparison, there is something"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":694.709,"endTime":697.679,"body":"like vaping, which has so much"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":697.679,"endTime":700.559,"body":"lower health impacts that I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":697.679,"endTime":700.559,"body":"would if someone said to me, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":700.559,"endTime":703.409,"body":"actually enjoy vaping I'm doing"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":700.559,"endTime":703.409,"body":"it for the foot. And I know I'm"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":703.409,"endTime":706.109,"body":"aware of the health risks, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":703.409,"endTime":706.109,"body":"will be much less willing to say"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":706.109,"endTime":708.749,"body":"you are behaving irrationally,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":706.109,"endTime":708.749,"body":"and you're, you don't know your"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":708.749,"endTime":711.209,"body":"own preferences, or you are"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":708.749,"endTime":711.209,"body":"being driven by addiction. You"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":711.209,"endTime":714.389,"body":"know, there's I think there is,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":711.209,"endTime":714.389,"body":"I guess a body be a sliding"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":714.389,"endTime":718.199,"body":"scale a spectrum of you know, to"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":714.389,"endTime":718.199,"body":"what extent you are in control"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":718.199,"endTime":720.119,"body":"of your own actions. And then"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":718.199,"endTime":720.119,"body":"you get into this complicated"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":720.119,"endTime":722.729,"body":"discussion about freewill and"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":720.119,"endTime":722.729,"body":"you know, addiction and how that"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":722.729,"endTime":725.879,"body":"interacts. But I generally think"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":722.729,"endTime":725.879,"body":"with alcohol, the majority of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":725.879,"endTime":729.929,"body":"people, I will be willing to"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":725.879,"endTime":729.929,"body":"say, your your behaviour is, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":729.929,"endTime":733.079,"body":"will start from the assumption"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":729.929,"endTime":733.079,"body":"that your your behaviour is"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":733.079,"endTime":735.539,"body":"rational and you're you have"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":733.079,"endTime":735.539,"body":"your own you have your freewill"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":735.539,"endTime":738.029,"body":"and you have your your ability"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":735.539,"endTime":738.029,"body":"to judge these things. And then"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":738.059,"endTime":742.079,"body":"as you know, as people slide up"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":738.059,"endTime":742.079,"body":"the scale towards more problem"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":742.109,"endTime":744.629,"body":"drinking and addiction and faith"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":742.109,"endTime":744.629,"body":"and inability to control it,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":744.659,"endTime":747.209,"body":"then you start saying no, you're"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":744.659,"endTime":747.209,"body":"making decisions by your own"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":747.209,"endTime":750.089,"body":"lights, by your own reason, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":747.209,"endTime":750.089,"body":"know, you're on your own terms"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":750.089,"endTime":752.549,"body":"would be would be bad decisions,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":750.089,"endTime":752.549,"body":"and you wish you would make them"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":752.579,"endTime":754.799,"body":"and then you start the thing"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":752.579,"endTime":754.799,"body":"that certainly there's a role"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":754.799,"endTime":757.679,"body":"for public health community of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":754.799,"endTime":757.679,"body":"offering help out of it. And but"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":757.679,"endTime":761.129,"body":"I think the the fundamental"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":757.679,"endTime":761.129,"body":"thing is to make these decisions"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":761.129,"endTime":763.709,"body":"about your own health"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":761.129,"endTime":763.709,"body":"behaviours, you need the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":763.709,"endTime":766.169,"body":"information presented in a way"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":763.709,"endTime":766.169,"body":"that is understandable and"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":766.169,"endTime":768.689,"body":"presented in a way that lets you"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":766.169,"endTime":768.689,"body":"make sense of it. So you can"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":768.689,"endTime":771.089,"body":"navigate these risks and"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":768.689,"endTime":771.089,"body":"navigate the benefits and say,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":771.089,"endTime":776.309,"body":"Yes, I am. I enjoy this. And I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":771.089,"endTime":776.309,"body":"don't enjoy being ill. And I can"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":776.309,"endTime":779.339,"body":"trade these things off in the in"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":776.309,"endTime":779.339,"body":"the correct levels, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":779.399,"endTime":779.909,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":779.97,"endTime":782.85,"body":"I mean, there's so"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":779.97,"endTime":782.85,"body":"many interesting issues in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":782.85,"endTime":786.21,"body":"there. And, you know, I kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":782.85,"endTime":786.21,"body":"think that, I mean, firstly,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":786.21,"endTime":788.4,"body":"when you're saying about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":786.21,"endTime":788.4,"body":"smokers, I'm drawing on"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":788.4,"endTime":791.43,"body":"anecdotes here. But I think it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":788.4,"endTime":791.43,"body":"totally depends on the way in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":791.43,"endTime":794.25,"body":"which context and the way in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":791.43,"endTime":794.25,"body":"which you framed the question."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":794.25,"endTime":796.47,"body":"Yeah, I was just thinking about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":794.25,"endTime":796.47,"body":"someone I met the other day, and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":796.47,"endTime":800.28,"body":"someone introduced me, and this"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":796.47,"endTime":800.28,"body":"chap was a very, you know, heavy"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":800.28,"endTime":803.25,"body":"smoker. And the person"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":800.28,"endTime":803.25,"body":"introducing me said, Oh, he's an"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":803.25,"endTime":806.49,"body":"addiction psychologist, or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":803.25,"endTime":806.49,"body":"whatever. And the bloke"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":806.49,"endTime":809.58,"body":"defensively said, Well, I'm not"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":806.49,"endTime":809.58,"body":"addicted. I like it, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":809.94,"endTime":813.09,"body":"you know, he smokes. So 40"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":809.94,"endTime":813.09,"body":"cigarettes a day. And, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":813.18,"endTime":815.79,"body":"I was quite aware that there was"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":813.18,"endTime":815.79,"body":"probably nothing I could say at"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":815.79,"endTime":818.97,"body":"that point that was going to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":815.79,"endTime":818.97,"body":"kind of change his position. But"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":818.97,"endTime":821.64,"body":"yeah, I'm sure if I mean, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":818.97,"endTime":821.64,"body":"know, what kind of happens in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":821.67,"endTime":825.0,"body":"addiction treatment is, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":821.67,"endTime":825.0,"body":"know, certainly from the kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":825.24,"endTime":829.35,"body":"psychological perspective"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":825.24,"endTime":829.35,"body":"motivational based interventions"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":829.35,"endTime":833.04,"body":"which explore that cognitive"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":829.35,"endTime":833.04,"body":"dissonance of the person usually"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":833.04,"endTime":835.95,"body":"has so so I suppose what I'm"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":833.04,"endTime":835.95,"body":"getting at is there's all these"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":835.95,"endTime":839.82,"body":"kinds of very complex thought"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":835.95,"endTime":839.82,"body":"processes that that often mean"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":839.82,"endTime":843.3,"body":"that Yeah, the more embedded in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":839.82,"endTime":843.3,"body":"programmatic the behaviour is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":843.3,"endTime":847.32,"body":"the more that kind of motivation"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":843.3,"endTime":847.32,"body":"to justify it might come out and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":847.32,"endTime":850.08,"body":"you know, it's very good reasons"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":847.32,"endTime":850.08,"body":"for that, not just because of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":850.11,"endTime":853.95,"body":"that's kind of human nature, but"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":850.11,"endTime":853.95,"body":"also because of stigma and you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":853.95,"endTime":857.1,"body":"know, social norming that people"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":853.95,"endTime":857.1,"body":"who smoke or drink heavily"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":857.13,"endTime":860.52,"body":"socialise with people who do the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":857.13,"endTime":860.52,"body":"same. So it just that seems like"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":860.52,"endTime":863.16,"body":"the norm rather than than"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":860.52,"endTime":863.16,"body":"drinking or smoking less."},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":863.22,"endTime":864.81,"body":"Yeah, no, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":863.22,"endTime":864.81,"body":"completely random but funnily"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":864.81,"endTime":868.56,"body":"enough, we had a piece in and"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":864.81,"endTime":868.56,"body":"heard by David Hockney, the the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":868.56,"endTime":871.38,"body":"artist saying, basically, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":868.56,"endTime":871.38,"body":"smoke and I really like it and"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":871.41,"endTime":874.05,"body":"you can all go No, I don't want"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":871.41,"endTime":874.05,"body":"to I don't want to say he is"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":874.05,"endTime":877.11,"body":"behaving irrationally. But then"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":874.05,"endTime":877.11,"body":"also I do like to say that the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":877.11,"endTime":879.36,"body":"human brain is not a single"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":877.11,"endTime":879.36,"body":"thing is it right you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":879.36,"endTime":881.22,"body":"there's, there's loads of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":879.36,"endTime":881.22,"body":"different bits of my brain"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":881.22,"endTime":883.62,"body":"saying, telling me that I want"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":881.22,"endTime":883.62,"body":"this at this moment and this at"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":883.62,"endTime":886.05,"body":"this moment, and they can they"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":883.62,"endTime":886.05,"body":"can disagree with myself a lot"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":886.05,"endTime":889.44,"body":"of the time and pretending that"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":886.05,"endTime":889.44,"body":"we are one unitary rational"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":889.44,"endTime":891.99,"body":"thing that has it has one"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":889.44,"endTime":891.99,"body":"particular desire that is"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":891.99,"endTime":894.45,"body":"thwarted in some way by other"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":891.99,"endTime":894.45,"body":"parts. You know, that doesn't"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":894.69,"endTime":897.54,"body":"make sense. We are complicated"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":894.69,"endTime":897.54,"body":"beings with lots of desires, and"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":897.54,"endTime":901.71,"body":"I suspect that And I think I'm"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":897.54,"endTime":901.71,"body":"right in saying that in the case"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":901.71,"endTime":905.19,"body":"of smoking there, there is a"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":901.71,"endTime":905.19,"body":"much greater tendency to say I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":905.19,"endTime":907.77,"body":"smoke, but I wish I didn't, then"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":905.19,"endTime":907.77,"body":"there is with alcohol or with"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":907.8,"endTime":911.58,"body":"other things. Yeah, I suspect."},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":907.8,"endTime":911.58,"body":"Yeah, I think that that ends up"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":911.61,"endTime":915.3,"body":"in a sliding scale spectrum"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":911.61,"endTime":915.3,"body":"issue. I don't want it to So"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":915.78,"endTime":918.21,"body":"even with smoking, I wouldn't"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":915.78,"endTime":918.21,"body":"want to say to people that you"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":918.21,"endTime":920.91,"body":"were making the wrong decision,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":918.21,"endTime":920.91,"body":"if they consciously and calmly"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":920.91,"endTime":923.58,"body":"say, No, I've thought about"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":920.91,"endTime":923.58,"body":"this, I know that I know, the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":923.58,"endTime":927.09,"body":"risks. I am aware of them. I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":923.58,"endTime":927.09,"body":"have, you know, I've looked into"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":927.09,"endTime":930.12,"body":"it and I enjoy it enough to want"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":927.09,"endTime":930.12,"body":"to carry on No. And sometimes it"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":930.12,"endTime":932.1,"body":"is motivated reasoning. But at"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":930.12,"endTime":932.1,"body":"some point, you have to say,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":932.1,"endTime":934.53,"body":"Okay, well, you've done your"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":932.1,"endTime":934.53,"body":"reasoning and motivated or not,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":934.53,"endTime":936.69,"body":"it's not my place to come in and"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":934.53,"endTime":936.69,"body":"say, You are wrong. You know, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":936.69,"endTime":939.18,"body":"think that to some degree,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":936.69,"endTime":939.18,"body":"without sounding too much like"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":939.18,"endTime":942.63,"body":"a, an internet, libertarian, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":939.18,"endTime":942.63,"body":"know, there's that you got it,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":942.63,"endTime":944.28,"body":"you've got it, you've got to let"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":942.63,"endTime":944.28,"body":"people make their own decisions"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":944.28,"endTime":946.47,"body":"and do their own harm"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":944.28,"endTime":946.47,"body":"themselves. And you can give"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":946.47,"endTime":949.5,"body":"them information. Now, I think I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":946.47,"endTime":949.5,"body":"think the right thing to do is"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":949.5,"endTime":951.66,"body":"giving them information, which"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":949.5,"endTime":951.66,"body":"is why you know, like calorie"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":951.66,"endTime":953.79,"body":"counts at restaurants, I cannot"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":951.66,"endTime":953.79,"body":"see why people have a problem"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":953.79,"endTime":956.1,"body":"with that. I think that is"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":953.79,"endTime":956.1,"body":"you're giving people correct"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":956.1,"endTime":958.41,"body":"information to make decisions"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":956.1,"endTime":958.41,"body":"with and that is a good thing."},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":958.47,"endTime":961.95,"body":"And I think that is that is the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":958.47,"endTime":961.95,"body":"case here like like anything"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":962.01,"endTime":965.64,"body":"about changing the information"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":962.01,"endTime":965.64,"body":"universe information, the meme"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":965.64,"endTime":967.89,"body":"Plex around us. Like, I don't"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":965.64,"endTime":967.89,"body":"have problem with limits on"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":967.89,"endTime":970.41,"body":"advertising, for instance,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":967.89,"endTime":970.41,"body":"because I feel like that is"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":970.47,"endTime":973.53,"body":"there are a lot of ways in which"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":970.47,"endTime":973.53,"body":"limits on advertising can skew"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":973.53,"endTime":975.6,"body":"the information that gets to"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":973.53,"endTime":975.6,"body":"people, I don't have a problem"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":975.6,"endTime":979.32,"body":"with providing things like"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":975.6,"endTime":979.32,"body":"calorie counts, information on,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":979.89,"endTime":982.38,"body":"you know, health warnings on"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":979.89,"endTime":982.38,"body":"cigarette packets, even health"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":982.38,"endTime":984.78,"body":"warnings on alcohol, as long as"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":982.38,"endTime":984.78,"body":"Yeah, as long as they are"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":984.81,"endTime":987.15,"body":"provided providing accurate"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":984.81,"endTime":987.15,"body":"information. That's the thing. I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":987.15,"endTime":989.94,"body":"think that is all fine. As long"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":987.15,"endTime":989.94,"body":"as it's done with the intent of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":990.15,"endTime":993.24,"body":"providing information to people"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":990.15,"endTime":993.24,"body":"rather than necessarily scaring"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":993.24,"endTime":996.3,"body":"them. I think there's a line to"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":993.24,"endTime":996.3,"body":"be drawn there between providing"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":996.3,"endTime":999.12,"body":"information to allow people to"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":996.3,"endTime":999.12,"body":"make their own decisions and"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":999.15,"endTime":1002.18,"body":"providing information"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":999.15,"endTime":1002.18,"body":"deliberately to scare to push"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1002.18,"endTime":1005.09,"body":"towards a certain course of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1002.18,"endTime":1005.09,"body":"action, which, you know, it's a"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1005.09,"endTime":1007.1,"body":"line and it's complicated, which"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1005.09,"endTime":1007.1,"body":"is which but I think that's"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1007.1,"endTime":1007.49,"body":"interesting."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1007.58,"endTime":1009.86,"body":"I mean, I'd agree"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1007.58,"endTime":1009.86,"body":"with that just largely on the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1009.86,"endTime":1014.03,"body":"basis that kind of scare tactics"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1009.86,"endTime":1014.03,"body":"probably don't work that, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1014.03,"endTime":1015.92,"body":"know, I think, you know, I've"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1014.03,"endTime":1015.92,"body":"done some work around kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1015.92,"endTime":1018.26,"body":"defensive processing, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1015.92,"endTime":1018.26,"body":"how people kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1018.29,"endTime":1023.48,"body":"subconsciously look away or kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1018.29,"endTime":1023.48,"body":"of just just avoid information."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1023.51,"endTime":1026.3,"body":"So kind of health warnings on"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1023.51,"endTime":1026.3,"body":"cigarette packets, famously, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1026.3,"endTime":1029.78,"body":"know, don't tend to work for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1026.3,"endTime":1029.78,"body":"existing smokers, because their"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1029.78,"endTime":1033.2,"body":"subconscious is so good at"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1029.78,"endTime":1033.2,"body":"identifying it as a threat and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1033.2,"endTime":1036.83,"body":"just blocking it out. And a lot"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1033.2,"endTime":1036.83,"body":"of complicated theories about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1036.86,"endTime":1039.83,"body":"how that works, and kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1036.86,"endTime":1039.83,"body":"things that moderate that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1039.83,"endTime":1042.77,"body":"effect. But they may actually"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1039.83,"endTime":1042.77,"body":"have some effect in terms of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1042.77,"endTime":1045.95,"body":"preventing new smokers who, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1042.77,"endTime":1045.95,"body":"know, might look at the pack and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1045.95,"endTime":1048.5,"body":"go, Oh, yeah, I don't want that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1045.95,"endTime":1048.5,"body":"I might not, I might be less"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1048.62,"endTime":1051.17,"body":"inclined to take it up. So yeah,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1048.62,"endTime":1051.17,"body":"generally, I'd agree with the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1051.17,"endTime":1054.05,"body":"kind of scare tactics in I don't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1051.17,"endTime":1054.05,"body":"think the evidence is good that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1054.05,"endTime":1057.59,"body":"they actually work. Whereas, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1054.05,"endTime":1057.59,"body":"know, providing good information"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1057.59,"endTime":1061.37,"body":"in the right context might hold"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1057.59,"endTime":1061.37,"body":"more value. The big issue here,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1061.37,"endTime":1063.35,"body":"I think, really, though, is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1061.37,"endTime":1063.35,"body":"that, you know, there's no"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1063.35,"endTime":1066.86,"body":"mandatory labelling for alcohol,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1063.35,"endTime":1066.86,"body":"despite a being of, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1066.86,"endTime":1071.03,"body":"potentially addictive, very"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1066.86,"endTime":1071.03,"body":"potentially dangerous drug, even"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1071.03,"endTime":1073.97,"body":"if many people use it without"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1071.03,"endTime":1073.97,"body":"such consequences that, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1073.97,"endTime":1077.66,"body":"know, it's a no brainer, that it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1073.97,"endTime":1077.66,"body":"should have basic health risk"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1077.66,"endTime":1081.23,"body":"information and some calorie"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1077.66,"endTime":1081.23,"body":"information on it, that's not"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1081.23,"endTime":1084.2,"body":"the case, because there's a long"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1081.23,"endTime":1084.2,"body":"history of, you know, self"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1084.2,"endTime":1088.16,"body":"regulatory pledges that kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1084.2,"endTime":1088.16,"body":"have or haven't been met. But"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1088.31,"endTime":1092.06,"body":"essentially, the kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1088.31,"endTime":1092.06,"body":"providing basic information, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1092.06,"endTime":1094.82,"body":"know, on containers or whatever"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1092.06,"endTime":1094.82,"body":"is a no brainer, and that should"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1094.82,"endTime":1097.76,"body":"be kind of mandatory. Really,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1094.82,"endTime":1097.76,"body":"that's, that's my view on that."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1098.0,"endTime":1101.6,"body":"I think the more interesting or,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1098.0,"endTime":1101.6,"body":"in fact, more important debates"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1101.6,"endTime":1104.45,"body":"are around those kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1101.6,"endTime":1104.45,"body":"environmental influences of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1104.45,"endTime":1107.54,"body":"behaviour, which we know really"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1104.45,"endTime":1107.54,"body":"huge, where it does, where there"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1107.54,"endTime":1111.26,"body":"is a more of a legitimate"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1107.54,"endTime":1111.26,"body":"argument about how much of a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1111.26,"endTime":1114.59,"body":"government role is there to play"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1111.26,"endTime":1114.59,"body":"but the the argument that, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1114.59,"endTime":1117.89,"body":"know, sort of the so called anti"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1114.59,"endTime":1117.89,"body":"nanny status, say Is that too"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1117.89,"endTime":1120.83,"body":"much interference, but then"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1117.89,"endTime":1120.83,"body":"surely, the flip side of that is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1120.83,"endTime":1124.13,"body":"then all drugs should be legally"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1120.83,"endTime":1124.13,"body":"available, and you know, kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1124.13,"endTime":1127.25,"body":"regulated to some degree that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1124.13,"endTime":1127.25,"body":"everything is a balance of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1127.25,"endTime":1130.22,"body":"regulation, you can have too,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1127.25,"endTime":1130.22,"body":"too much regulation, which is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1130.22,"endTime":1133.25,"body":"prohibition, and you can have"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1130.22,"endTime":1133.25,"body":"too little which is widely"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1133.25,"endTime":1136.43,"body":"available and widely accessible,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1133.25,"endTime":1136.43,"body":"including to children who are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1136.43,"endTime":1140.03,"body":"exposed to too much marketing"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1136.43,"endTime":1140.03,"body":"and the products far too, or is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1140.03,"endTime":1143.24,"body":"very cheap, and can be easily"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1140.03,"endTime":1143.24,"body":"accessed in dangerous quantities"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1143.24,"endTime":1145.85,"body":"for not a lot of money. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1143.24,"endTime":1145.85,"body":"that's kind of where we are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1145.88,"endTime":1149.06,"body":"least have been with alcohol. So"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1145.88,"endTime":1149.06,"body":"I do think the issue about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1149.09,"endTime":1152.42,"body":"choice and kind of the idea of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1149.09,"endTime":1152.42,"body":"individuals responsibility is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1152.42,"endTime":1156.92,"body":"dangerous if because people are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1152.42,"endTime":1156.92,"body":"heavily influenced by by the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1156.92,"endTime":1160.46,"body":"environment and social norms and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1156.92,"endTime":1160.46,"body":"all those kinds of things. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1160.46,"endTime":1162.86,"body":"that from a public health point"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1160.46,"endTime":1162.86,"body":"of view, again, not not"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1162.89,"endTime":1166.04,"body":"discounting or rejecting the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1162.89,"endTime":1166.04,"body":"positives of alcohol, but I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1166.04,"endTime":1168.65,"body":"think there's a balance to be"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1166.04,"endTime":1168.65,"body":"struck and I think a case for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1168.65,"endTime":1171.41,"body":"pricing and advertising curbs"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1168.65,"endTime":1171.41,"body":"that are more effective than"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1171.41,"endTime":1172.94,"body":"what we currently have. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1173.0,"endTime":1176.39,"body":"I think on the subject"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1173.0,"endTime":1176.39,"body":"of drugs in general, I mean, it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1176.39,"endTime":1179.24,"body":"is always Oh my my instinct is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1176.39,"endTime":1179.24,"body":"always to treat alcohol like one"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1179.24,"endTime":1183.95,"body":"more drug, you know, and I think"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1179.24,"endTime":1183.95,"body":"I think my my ideal position"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1184.04,"endTime":1188.84,"body":"would be a weird like hybrid of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1184.04,"endTime":1188.84,"body":"libertarianism as in every you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1188.84,"endTime":1192.83,"body":"know, all drugs should be"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1188.84,"endTime":1192.83,"body":"legally available, but you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1192.83,"endTime":1196.79,"body":"but I think it was transformed"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1192.83,"endTime":1196.79,"body":"drugs policy, the think tank or"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1196.82,"endTime":1198.62,"body":"pressure group, whatever you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1196.82,"endTime":1198.62,"body":"want to call them who suggested"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1198.62,"endTime":1201.05,"body":"like a five tiered level way And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1198.62,"endTime":1201.05,"body":"it can get hurt, you can get"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1201.05,"endTime":1204.2,"body":"heroin and coke, cocaine or"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1201.05,"endTime":1204.2,"body":"heroin and crack cocaine on"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1204.2,"endTime":1206.3,"body":"prescription and then all and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1204.2,"endTime":1206.3,"body":"then further down, you can buy"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1206.3,"endTime":1208.31,"body":"other ones in pharmacies over"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1206.3,"endTime":1208.31,"body":"the counter and you know, all"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1208.31,"endTime":1211.22,"body":"the all these drugs regulated"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1208.31,"endTime":1211.22,"body":"down to caffeine which you can"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1211.22,"endTime":1214.4,"body":"buy. And in any shop, you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1211.22,"endTime":1214.4,"body":"that all I feel like that sort"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1214.4,"endTime":1217.22,"body":"of system and alcohol being one"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1214.4,"endTime":1217.22,"body":"more thing on that system where"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1217.22,"endTime":1220.91,"body":"people can be are allowed to buy"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1217.22,"endTime":1220.91,"body":"it, you know, and in personal"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1220.91,"endTime":1223.13,"body":"situations, but there should be"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1220.91,"endTime":1223.13,"body":"respect, I think the important"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1223.13,"endTime":1225.2,"body":"thing would be if you if you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1223.13,"endTime":1225.2,"body":"have that system, you need to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1225.2,"endTime":1228.17,"body":"have restrictions on on"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1225.2,"endTime":1228.17,"body":"advertising. So there isn't a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1228.17,"endTime":1232.1,"body":"sort of information free for all"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1228.17,"endTime":1232.1,"body":"of you know, that buy our beer"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1232.1,"endTime":1234.74,"body":"and all these, you will be"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1232.1,"endTime":1234.74,"body":"attractive and successful pipe,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1234.77,"endTime":1238.19,"body":"you know, the ideas that people"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1234.77,"endTime":1238.19,"body":"had, and I think I think that is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1238.22,"endTime":1241.04,"body":"to maximise sort of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1238.22,"endTime":1241.04,"body":"individual freedom to choose the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1241.04,"endTime":1243.65,"body":"thing that you want, you need,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1241.04,"endTime":1243.65,"body":"the ability to choose all"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1243.65,"endTime":1245.84,"body":"different things, the different"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1243.65,"endTime":1245.84,"body":"drugs that they might want to do"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1245.84,"endTime":1248.3,"body":"and might therefore enjoy. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1245.84,"endTime":1248.3,"body":"that is, that should be fine."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1248.3,"endTime":1252.14,"body":"But also, then there is a need"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1248.3,"endTime":1252.14,"body":"to they need to be made aware of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1252.14,"endTime":1254.93,"body":"the different risks and benefits"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1252.14,"endTime":1254.93,"body":"of our risks, especially because"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1254.93,"endTime":1257.18,"body":"they can do they can discover"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1254.93,"endTime":1257.18,"body":"their own benefits, I guess, the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1257.18,"endTime":1260.06,"body":"red meat, you know, made of made"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1257.18,"endTime":1260.06,"body":"aware of the risks of the health"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1260.06,"endTime":1264.08,"body":"risks, and also kept free from"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1260.06,"endTime":1264.08,"body":"as far as possible advertising"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1264.08,"endTime":1266.84,"body":"that can skew the information"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1264.08,"endTime":1266.84,"body":"and give a wrong give a bad"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1266.84,"endTime":1270.11,"body":"sense of the risks and benefits."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1266.84,"endTime":1270.11,"body":"And I think that so I think that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1270.17,"endTime":1273.2,"body":"I've got this sort of weird,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1270.17,"endTime":1273.2,"body":"half quite libertarian half"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1273.2,"endTime":1276.08,"body":"quite restrictive idea that you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1273.2,"endTime":1276.08,"body":"could be really libertarian with"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1276.08,"endTime":1279.17,"body":"the actual substances, but"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1276.08,"endTime":1279.17,"body":"extremely restrictive and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1279.17,"endTime":1282.86,"body":"conservative on the advertising"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1279.17,"endTime":1282.86,"body":"information that is that they is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1282.86,"endTime":1285.08,"body":"allowed to be sort of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1282.86,"endTime":1285.08,"body":"commercially put out around them"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1285.08,"endTime":1287.03,"body":"would be my ideal situation."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1285.08,"endTime":1287.03,"body":"Yeah, I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1287.03,"endTime":1289.28,"body":"think I think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1287.03,"endTime":1289.28,"body":"that's a quite sensible"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1289.28,"endTime":1291.47,"body":"approach, really. And I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1289.28,"endTime":1291.47,"body":"certainly think that, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1291.47,"endTime":1294.38,"body":"kind of staged approach to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1291.47,"endTime":1294.38,"body":"regulation is, as I was kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1294.38,"endTime":1297.89,"body":"saying, everything's on a scale"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1294.38,"endTime":1297.89,"body":"of kind of regulation, or kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1297.89,"endTime":1300.35,"body":"of should be, it's about getting"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1297.89,"endTime":1300.35,"body":"that difficult balance. Right."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1300.35,"endTime":1303.65,"body":"But yeah, I kind of sort of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1300.35,"endTime":1303.65,"body":"think that, you know, the idea"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1303.65,"endTime":1307.19,"body":"that you can have neutral or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1303.65,"endTime":1307.19,"body":"totally accurate advertising is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1307.19,"endTime":1309.86,"body":"maybe a bit of a contradiction"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1307.19,"endTime":1309.86,"body":"in terms, isn't the whole idea"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1309.86,"endTime":1313.28,"body":"of advertising to kind of frame"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1309.86,"endTime":1313.28,"body":"something in a way that makes it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1313.28,"endTime":1316.79,"body":"maybe more appealing than it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1313.28,"endTime":1316.79,"body":"really is. Yes, exactly. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1316.79,"endTime":1320.33,"body":"completely agree, sometimes of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1316.79,"endTime":1320.33,"body":"kind of the science journalism,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1320.39,"endTime":1322.88,"body":"and what kind of the can the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1320.39,"endTime":1322.88,"body":"media do, you know, I'm"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1322.88,"endTime":1325.79,"body":"certainly very interested in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1322.88,"endTime":1325.79,"body":"terms of how kind of the media"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1325.79,"endTime":1329.9,"body":"reports on people with alcohol"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1325.79,"endTime":1329.9,"body":"problems. And, as you probably"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1329.9,"endTime":1332.9,"body":"know, you know, I'm not keen on"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1329.9,"endTime":1332.9,"body":"the idea of alcoholism, which"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1332.9,"endTime":1336.95,"body":"has, you know, long been retired"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1332.9,"endTime":1336.95,"body":"from medical kind of scientific"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1336.95,"endTime":1339.95,"body":"practice, partly for reasons"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1336.95,"endTime":1339.95,"body":"that again, it's a kind of false"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1339.95,"endTime":1343.19,"body":"binary, that people aren't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1339.95,"endTime":1343.19,"body":"either alcohol dependent, and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1343.19,"endTime":1346.22,"body":"there's a cut off or which you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1343.19,"endTime":1346.22,"body":"either are on the it's a kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1346.22,"endTime":1349.49,"body":"spectrum and dependence is only"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1346.22,"endTime":1349.49,"body":"one part, you know, alcohol use"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1349.49,"endTime":1353.51,"body":"and problems. So that's one area"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1349.49,"endTime":1353.51,"body":"that I'm, you know, quite keen,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1353.51,"endTime":1356.39,"body":"that's, you know, I even wrote"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1353.51,"endTime":1356.39,"body":"wrote a piece for The Guardian"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1356.42,"endTime":1359.24,"body":"quite a few years ago, saying,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1356.42,"endTime":1359.24,"body":"you know, kind of making these"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1359.24,"endTime":1362.18,"body":"arguments, but the editor still"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1359.24,"endTime":1362.18,"body":"put a headline in that, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1362.18,"endTime":1364.28,"body":"know, kind of use the term"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1362.18,"endTime":1364.28,"body":"alcoholism, even though the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1364.28,"endTime":1368.09,"body":"articles explicitly calling for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1364.28,"endTime":1368.09,"body":"it not to be used. Of course,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1368.09,"endTime":1371.24,"body":"there's exceptions of people"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1368.09,"endTime":1371.24,"body":"self identify that term, etc."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1371.27,"endTime":1373.52,"body":"but but do you have any kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1371.27,"endTime":1373.52,"body":"thoughts? I mean, you know, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1373.52,"endTime":1376.97,"body":"kind of write pieces that, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1373.52,"endTime":1376.97,"body":"know, look at the evidence and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1376.97,"endTime":1380.54,"body":"try and disentangle and come to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1376.97,"endTime":1380.54,"body":"a kind of reasonable position,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1380.54,"endTime":1383.87,"body":"but but, you know, how might we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1380.54,"endTime":1383.87,"body":"kind of appeal to, to kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1384.47,"endTime":1387.32,"body":"media outlets who, by their"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1384.47,"endTime":1387.32,"body":"nature are kind of more"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1387.32,"endTime":1390.38,"body":"clickbait or kind of just"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1387.32,"endTime":1390.38,"body":"attention grabbing kind of news"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1390.38,"endTime":1392.03,"body":"is their last cause? No, no,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1391.57,"endTime":1395.08,"body":"no. Okay. So. So I want"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1391.57,"endTime":1395.08,"body":"to first I want to say that the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1395.11,"endTime":1399.46,"body":"I have quite a high opinion,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1395.11,"endTime":1399.46,"body":"despite my work being quite"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1399.46,"endTime":1402.1,"body":"often, I hate the word"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1399.46,"endTime":1402.1,"body":"debunking. But you know, like,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1402.49,"endTime":1405.67,"body":"critically assessing other"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1402.49,"endTime":1405.67,"body":"journalists work and sort of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1405.67,"endTime":1407.71,"body":"saying, well, this, this piece"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1405.67,"endTime":1407.71,"body":"of journalism that's come out is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1407.71,"endTime":1411.49,"body":"in some way missing the wider"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1407.71,"endTime":1411.49,"body":"story I do, as on the whole have"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1411.49,"endTime":1413.5,"body":"quite a high opinion of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1411.49,"endTime":1413.5,"body":"journalists. And obviously,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1413.8,"endTime":1416.68,"body":"selection bias being what it is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1413.8,"endTime":1416.68,"body":"or survivorship bias, the ones"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1416.68,"endTime":1418.99,"body":"that get through the ones that I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1416.68,"endTime":1418.99,"body":"am writing about will tend to be"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1418.99,"endTime":1421.57,"body":"the bad ones. And that will give"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1418.99,"endTime":1421.57,"body":"an impression that I'm only"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1421.57,"endTime":1424.06,"body":"looking at badger and I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1421.57,"endTime":1424.06,"body":"genuinely think journalists are"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1424.12,"endTime":1427.51,"body":"decent people brought in broadly"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1424.12,"endTime":1427.51,"body":"pretty intelligent and who want"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1427.51,"endTime":1431.68,"body":"to do to do good in the world. I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1427.51,"endTime":1431.68,"body":"think that is true. 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And I think that is,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1715.21,"endTime":1718.54,"body":"that is something that science"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1718.54,"endTime":1721.66,"body":"journalism as a whole needs to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1718.54,"endTime":1721.66,"body":"be better at, I have tried to do"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1721.66,"endTime":1724.36,"body":"over my career, and this is a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1721.66,"endTime":1724.36,"body":"real failing, when you see"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1724.36,"endTime":1727.69,"body":"those, wanting, you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1724.36,"endTime":1727.69,"body":"drinking a glass of wine is good"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1727.69,"endTime":1728.95,"body":"for you this week type"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1727.69,"endTime":1728.95,"body":"headlines."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1729.07,"endTime":1732.07,"body":"And I think it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1729.07,"endTime":1732.07,"body":"also not fair just to, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1732.07,"endTime":1734.8,"body":"point the finger at the media,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1732.07,"endTime":1734.8,"body":"you know, publication bias is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1734.8,"endTime":1738.46,"body":"real, you know, science journals"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1734.8,"endTime":1738.46,"body":"are guilty of just the same"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1738.46,"endTime":1742.75,"body":"thing often, you know, finding"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1738.46,"endTime":1742.75,"body":"that, you know, positive finding"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1742.75,"endTime":1746.77,"body":"or will be more likely to be"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1742.75,"endTime":1746.77,"body":"published and studies that don't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1746.77,"endTime":1750.07,"body":"don't have positive results can"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1746.77,"endTime":1750.07,"body":"be really important, but much"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1750.07,"endTime":1752.47,"body":"harder to get published, because"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1750.07,"endTime":1752.47,"body":"they're not exciting."},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1753.19,"endTime":1755.08,"body":"Yes, no, this is"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1753.19,"endTime":1755.08,"body":"actually true. 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And"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1770.35,"endTime":1773.44,"body":"yes, you're right. There's a lot"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1773.44,"endTime":1775.57,"body":"that science has to do to get"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1773.44,"endTime":1775.57,"body":"its house in order and all this"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1775.57,"endTime":1777.43,"body":"sort of stuff. And I think there"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1775.57,"endTime":1777.43,"body":"are great things about pre"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1777.43,"endTime":1779.95,"body":"registering studies and"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1777.43,"endTime":1779.95,"body":"registered reports and things"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1779.95,"endTime":1783.1,"body":"which can sort of tie scientists"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1779.95,"endTime":1783.1,"body":"to the master or more"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1783.1,"endTime":1785.86,"body":"importantly, science journals to"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1783.1,"endTime":1785.86,"body":"the master of like, we will"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1785.86,"endTime":1788.23,"body":"publish publish this study"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1785.86,"endTime":1788.23,"body":"whether it finds a result or"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1788.23,"endTime":1791.02,"body":"not. But I concentrate on"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1788.23,"endTime":1791.02,"body":"journalists in the book, we"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1791.02,"endTime":1793.39,"body":"concentrate on journalists in"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1791.02,"endTime":1793.39,"body":"the book, but we do point out"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1793.39,"endTime":1795.22,"body":"that actually there's a lot"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1793.39,"endTime":1795.22,"body":"that's going on in science,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1795.22,"endTime":1798.49,"body":"which is just not journalism's"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1795.22,"endTime":1798.49,"body":"fault and science needs to do a"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1798.49,"endTime":1800.17,"body":"lot of work to get it out in"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1798.49,"endTime":1800.17,"body":"order as well."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1800.21,"endTime":1802.55,"body":"Yeah, it's a bit"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1800.21,"endTime":1802.55,"body":"like kind of turning your oil"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1802.55,"endTime":1806.0,"body":"tanker around as well, I think"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1802.55,"endTime":1806.0,"body":"it's this progress and nothing"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1806.0,"endTime":1809.42,"body":"You are now more likely to get a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1806.0,"endTime":1809.42,"body":"lot of studies will only be"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1809.42,"endTime":1814.28,"body":"published if they have pre"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1809.42,"endTime":1814.28,"body":"registered. And and, yeah, I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1814.28,"endTime":1817.04,"body":"think just on the kind of j"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1814.28,"endTime":1817.04,"body":"curve issue that that is an"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1817.04,"endTime":1820.13,"body":"interesting one. I think, again,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1817.04,"endTime":1820.13,"body":"that's kind of a nice example of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1820.13,"endTime":1822.44,"body":"what you say that we, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1820.13,"endTime":1822.44,"body":"over the last few years, there"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1822.44,"endTime":1826.61,"body":"have been more studies using"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1822.44,"endTime":1826.61,"body":"different methods, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1826.61,"endTime":1830.66,"body":"kind of genetic sequencing or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1826.61,"endTime":1830.66,"body":"Mendelian randomization, that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1830.66,"endTime":1834.02,"body":"kind of the evidence is mounting"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1830.66,"endTime":1834.02,"body":"that actually these are likely"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1834.02,"endTime":1838.01,"body":"to be far more likely to be, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1834.02,"endTime":1838.01,"body":"know, kind of confound"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1838.01,"endTime":1841.91,"body":"confounder affects that there"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1838.01,"endTime":1841.91,"body":"actually aren't benefits to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1841.94,"endTime":1845.39,"body":"heart health, through the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1841.94,"endTime":1845.39,"body":"mechanism of alcohol itself,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1845.39,"endTime":1848.72,"body":"rather than more likely, people"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1845.39,"endTime":1848.72,"body":"who drink low amounts of alcohol"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1848.93,"endTime":1851.51,"body":"have healthier lifestyles"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1848.93,"endTime":1851.51,"body":"overall, but it's still still"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1851.51,"endTime":1854.93,"body":"not conclusive. We still don't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1851.51,"endTime":1854.93,"body":"quite know yet. But again, I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1854.93,"endTime":1857.78,"body":"think that's an interesting"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1854.93,"endTime":1857.78,"body":"example, because it's something"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1857.78,"endTime":1861.8,"body":"that in the past, the media has"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1857.78,"endTime":1861.8,"body":"picked up on. And people really"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1861.8,"endTime":1864.74,"body":"do often lap that up. You know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1861.8,"endTime":1864.74,"body":"I think, I don't know if there's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1864.74,"endTime":1867.68,"body":"been studies about how many"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1864.74,"endTime":1867.68,"body":"people would say, Yes, a glass"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1867.68,"endTime":1870.68,"body":"of red wine or whatever is good"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1867.68,"endTime":1870.68,"body":"for you. But I think it'd be"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1870.68,"endTime":1874.58,"body":"pretty high. And again, that I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1870.68,"endTime":1874.58,"body":"know that there's studies that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1874.58,"endTime":1878.27,"body":"show that those kind of biases"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1874.58,"endTime":1878.27,"body":"are higher in people that do"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1878.27,"endTime":1881.78,"body":"drink, whose behaviours that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1878.27,"endTime":1881.78,"body":"will make them feel better about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1881.87,"endTime":1884.93,"body":"and how do you think you know"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1881.87,"endTime":1884.93,"body":"what you've looked at? Or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1884.93,"endTime":1887.93,"body":"thought about alcohol? And does"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1884.93,"endTime":1887.93,"body":"it sort of feed into how you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1887.93,"endTime":1891.32,"body":"approach alcohol? Well, there"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1887.93,"endTime":1891.32,"body":"was a famous case where the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1891.32,"endTime":1895.31,"body":"former chief medical officer"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1891.32,"endTime":1895.31,"body":"said something like, every time"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1895.31,"endTime":1898.49,"body":"I reach for a glass of wine, I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1895.31,"endTime":1898.49,"body":"think, do I really want to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1898.49,"endTime":1901.1,"body":"increase my risk of cancer and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1898.49,"endTime":1901.1,"body":"it causes, you know, absolute"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1901.13,"endTime":1904.82,"body":"outrage kind of crucified for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1901.13,"endTime":1904.82,"body":"kind of scaring people. But you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1904.82,"endTime":1907.46,"body":"know, one level, it's a kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1904.82,"endTime":1907.46,"body":"valid thought process,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1907.46,"endTime":1909.92,"body":"particularly if that's one she"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1907.46,"endTime":1909.92,"body":"wants to have. that's a that's a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1909.92,"endTime":1912.53,"body":"rational thing to do, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1909.92,"endTime":1912.53,"body":"Yeah, exactly. But on another"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1912.53,"endTime":1915.44,"body":"level, you know, perhaps it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1912.53,"endTime":1915.44,"body":"fair to say that not everyone"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1915.44,"endTime":1918.29,"body":"should have to think about their"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1915.44,"endTime":1918.29,"body":"level of cancer risk when trying"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":1918.29,"endTime":1919.37,"body":"to enjoy a glass of wine."},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1919.28,"endTime":1921.65,"body":"Well, I guess the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1919.28,"endTime":1921.65,"body":"window surprise, no one at all,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1921.65,"endTime":1924.44,"body":"to know that I drank more in my"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1921.65,"endTime":1924.44,"body":"20s. And I do now that I'm 40."},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1924.5,"endTime":1926.45,"body":"And when I was in my 20s, I do"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1924.5,"endTime":1926.45,"body":"remember think I remember"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1926.45,"endTime":1928.7,"body":"thinking, you know, that the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1926.45,"endTime":1928.7,"body":"evidence hadn't changed that"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1928.7,"endTime":1931.19,"body":"much now. And then between now"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1928.7,"endTime":1931.19,"body":"and then I remember thinking"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1931.22,"endTime":1935.06,"body":"this is probably more than"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1931.22,"endTime":1935.06,"body":"they'll drink, and being aware"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1935.06,"endTime":1938.66,"body":"of the health aspects of it"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1935.06,"endTime":1938.66,"body":"without, without me knowing also"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1938.66,"endTime":1941.21,"body":"being aware that I was in my"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1938.66,"endTime":1941.21,"body":"20s, and was pretty healthy and"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1941.39,"endTime":1944.78,"body":"was fine, and also smoked a bit"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1941.39,"endTime":1944.78,"body":"and was aware that wasn't"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1944.78,"endTime":1947.99,"body":"something I wanted to do"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1944.78,"endTime":1947.99,"body":"forever. And I did think I want"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1947.99,"endTime":1951.32,"body":"to stop this. I think I've got"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1947.99,"endTime":1951.32,"body":"actually properly drunk twice in"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1951.32,"endTime":1953.51,"body":"the last couple of years or"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1951.32,"endTime":1953.51,"body":"something, you know, I have,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1953.54,"endTime":1956.36,"body":"sometimes I'll have three drinks"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1953.54,"endTime":1956.36,"body":"on a Friday night, you know, and"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1956.63,"endTime":1960.44,"body":"normally, it's like, I'll have a"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1956.63,"endTime":1960.44,"body":"pint on a gin and tonic with my"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1960.44,"endTime":1962.51,"body":"wife. And what has changed is"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1960.44,"endTime":1962.51,"body":"not that I've made any"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1962.51,"endTime":1965.48,"body":"particular health decisions, it"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1962.51,"endTime":1965.48,"body":"is that I've had kids and I've"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1965.57,"endTime":1968.24,"body":"had gone, my jobs got more"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1965.57,"endTime":1968.24,"body":"responsible. And I've, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1968.24,"endTime":1970.16,"body":"I go out less because I'm older."},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1968.24,"endTime":1970.16,"body":"And it's, you know, and it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1970.16,"endTime":1974.12,"body":"just, I've naturally become less"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1970.16,"endTime":1974.12,"body":"in situations when I want to"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1974.12,"endTime":1977.09,"body":"drink eight pints, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1974.12,"endTime":1977.09,"body":"would, you know, it's really"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1977.09,"endTime":1979.91,"body":"hard to tease out what is the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1977.09,"endTime":1979.91,"body":"cause of that. And I do think"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1979.94,"endTime":1983.03,"body":"you know, that I'm sure that"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1979.94,"endTime":1983.03,"body":"there is some bit of the of the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1983.03,"endTime":1985.85,"body":"brain that that takes into"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1983.03,"endTime":1985.85,"body":"account the fact that I'm aware"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1985.85,"endTime":1989.51,"body":"of alcohol risk and alcohol"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1985.85,"endTime":1989.51,"body":"risks, and in my decision not to"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1989.54,"endTime":1992.33,"body":"drink a bottle of frog every"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1989.54,"endTime":1992.33,"body":"night, but because yeah, but"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1992.33,"endTime":1995.81,"body":"there was basically at some"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1992.33,"endTime":1995.81,"body":"point in my 30s, I found that"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1996.17,"endTime":1998.36,"body":"alcohol around the house doesn't"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1996.17,"endTime":1998.36,"body":"disappear from them immediately."},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1998.36,"endTime":2001.57,"body":"And you can even have a bottle"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":1998.36,"endTime":2001.57,"body":"of wine that sits in the in the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2001.57,"endTime":2003.22,"body":"cupboard for a few days until"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2001.57,"endTime":2003.22,"body":"you actually want to have it."},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2003.22,"endTime":2006.22,"body":"And I just think that's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2003.22,"endTime":2006.22,"body":"just getting older and life"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2006.22,"endTime":2008.65,"body":"changing. And you know, being"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2006.22,"endTime":2008.65,"body":"settled down and being more"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2008.65,"endTime":2013.03,"body":"boring. So though, Yeah, I do. I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2008.65,"endTime":2013.03,"body":"do think that alcohol health"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2013.06,"endTime":2016.69,"body":"risks. I've always been aware of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2013.06,"endTime":2016.69,"body":"them. But yeah, but I don't I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2016.69,"endTime":2020.08,"body":"don't see them as particular"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2016.69,"endTime":2020.08,"body":"driver of my changing behaviour"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2020.11,"endTime":2022.81,"body":"that said, you know, when you go"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2020.11,"endTime":2022.81,"body":"to the GP and they ask you or"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2022.81,"endTime":2025.69,"body":"you fill out some online form,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2022.81,"endTime":2025.69,"body":"I'm aware of the finding that"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2025.69,"endTime":2028.84,"body":"everyone underestimates how much"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2025.69,"endTime":2028.84,"body":"they drink? And I do, I'd be"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2028.84,"endTime":2030.7,"body":"really intrigued to know whether"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2028.84,"endTime":2030.7,"body":"if I actually did it out, but"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2030.7,"endTime":2033.76,"body":"you know, if I say well, I don't"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2030.7,"endTime":2033.76,"body":"think that I get past the 14"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2033.76,"endTime":2037.57,"body":"units, I'm probably under the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2033.76,"endTime":2037.57,"body":"underneath it. And Wait, are you"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2037.57,"endTime":2041.26,"body":"really if I actually sat down"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2037.57,"endTime":2041.26,"body":"and took a dark kept a diary of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2041.26,"endTime":2043.78,"body":"it? Would I find that I am"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2041.26,"endTime":2043.78,"body":"drinking much more than I think"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2043.78,"endTime":2047.14,"body":"I don't think I do. I think I'm"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2043.78,"endTime":2047.14,"body":"reasonably on it. But I you"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2047.14,"endTime":2049.12,"body":"know, like we've discussed"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2047.14,"endTime":2049.12,"body":"throughout so throughout this"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2049.12,"endTime":2051.01,"body":"thing, there's, there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2049.12,"endTime":2051.01,"body":"sort of complicated"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2051.01,"endTime":2054.64,"body":"psychological stuff goes on"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2051.01,"endTime":2054.64,"body":"about hiding your own level of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2054.67,"endTime":2057.46,"body":"drink from yourself and all that"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2054.67,"endTime":2057.46,"body":"sort of stuff. So anyway, this"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2057.46,"endTime":2061.57,"body":"is a big, long, one wofully"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2057.46,"endTime":2061.57,"body":"ramble, but I don't think that"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2061.87,"endTime":2065.2,"body":"my behaviour has been"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2061.87,"endTime":2065.2,"body":"gigantically driven by alcohol"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2065.2,"endTime":2067.54,"body":"risk. And I think it is mainly"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2065.2,"endTime":2067.54,"body":"just driven by the fact that I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2067.54,"endTime":2070.42,"body":"haven't got time to drink these"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2067.54,"endTime":2070.42,"body":"most of these days. I'm not in"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2070.42,"endTime":2071.89,"body":"situations where I would. And I"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2070.42,"endTime":2071.89,"body":"hate hangovers."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2071.95,"endTime":2074.68,"body":"I think those are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2071.95,"endTime":2074.68,"body":"all kind of perfectly normal and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2074.68,"endTime":2077.62,"body":"quite typical responses or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2074.68,"endTime":2077.62,"body":"behaviours that you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2077.8,"endTime":2080.29,"body":"there's a lot of stuff about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2077.8,"endTime":2080.29,"body":"over the life course"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2080.29,"endTime":2084.34,"body":"transitions, just most people"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2080.29,"endTime":2084.34,"body":"mature out of alcohol problems,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2084.34,"endTime":2087.61,"body":"you know, problematic drinking,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2084.34,"endTime":2087.61,"body":"many people do it in their early"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2087.61,"endTime":2090.64,"body":"years and 20s, but just simply"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2087.61,"endTime":2090.64,"body":"mature out of it because of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2090.67,"endTime":2093.52,"body":"quarrel of responsibilities and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2090.67,"endTime":2093.52,"body":"so on. But similarly, I just"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2093.52,"endTime":2096.52,"body":"don't think many people do"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2093.52,"endTime":2096.52,"body":"factor in the health risks"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2096.55,"endTime":2099.49,"body":"partly because of delay"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2096.55,"endTime":2099.49,"body":"discounting and it feels so far"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2099.49,"endTime":2103.27,"body":"away, but Kind of in the moment"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2099.49,"endTime":2103.27,"body":"decisions are kind of more more"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2103.27,"endTime":2106.87,"body":"powerful. And you know, how does"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2103.27,"endTime":2106.87,"body":"it affect us the next day might"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2106.87,"endTime":2109.57,"body":"be a more powerful driver than"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2106.87,"endTime":2109.57,"body":"you know whether you might"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2109.57,"endTime":2114.73,"body":"increase your risk of X 20 years"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2109.57,"endTime":2114.73,"body":"down the line or whatever. So,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2114.94,"endTime":2117.46,"body":"yeah, thanks so much, Tom, that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2114.94,"endTime":2117.46,"body":"that's been a really, really"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2117.46,"endTime":2121.81,"body":"interesting chat. And yeah, best"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2117.46,"endTime":2121.81,"body":"of luck with with a new book,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2121.81,"endTime":2124.06,"body":"what's the name of the book? And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2121.81,"endTime":2124.06,"body":"where can you get it?"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2124.66,"endTime":2127.54,"body":"How to Read"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2124.66,"endTime":2127.54,"body":"numbers, a guide to statistics"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2127.54,"endTime":2129.94,"body":"in the news and knowing when to"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2127.54,"endTime":2129.94,"body":"trust them all good bookshops"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2129.94,"endTime":2134.05,"body":"obviously. But if you go to how"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2129.94,"endTime":2134.05,"body":"to read numbers.com, you'll find"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2134.05,"endTime":2137.26,"body":"links to various places you can"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2134.05,"endTime":2137.26,"body":"buy it and also a link to our"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2137.26,"endTime":2140.47,"body":"statistical style guide when the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2137.26,"endTime":2140.47,"body":"book is for readers, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2140.47,"endTime":2142.75,"body":"sort of how to navigate numbers"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2140.47,"endTime":2142.75,"body":"in the news. But there's also a"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2142.75,"endTime":2145.42,"body":"bit on the end, which is sort of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2142.75,"endTime":2145.42,"body":"for journalists to try and do"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2145.42,"endTime":2148.42,"body":"better. Sort of a few simple"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2145.42,"endTime":2148.42,"body":"tips for journalists to sort of"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2148.42,"endTime":2150.7,"body":"how to present numbers more"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2148.42,"endTime":2150.7,"body":"effectively and more"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2151.27,"endTime":2154.78,"body":"informatively. We asked readers"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2151.27,"endTime":2154.78,"body":"to come and sign a petition to"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2154.78,"endTime":2157.9,"body":"encourage people to sign up to"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2154.78,"endTime":2157.9,"body":"that or a similar statistical"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2157.9,"endTime":2160.03,"body":"style guide to to improve"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2157.9,"endTime":2160.03,"body":"statistical literacy in the"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2160.03,"endTime":2162.28,"body":"media, I think that'd be a"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2160.03,"endTime":2162.28,"body":"really useful thing for exactly"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2162.28,"endTime":2164.05,"body":"the sort of stuff we've been"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2162.28,"endTime":2164.05,"body":"talking about for presenting"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2164.08,"endTime":2166.75,"body":"information about everything,"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2164.08,"endTime":2166.75,"body":"including alcohol in ways that"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2166.9,"endTime":2169.72,"body":"readers can then use to make"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2166.9,"endTime":2169.72,"body":"informed decisions about their"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2169.72,"endTime":2171.67,"body":"own risks and benefits and their"},{"speaker":"Tom Chivers","startTime":2169.72,"endTime":2171.67,"body":"own lives."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2172.15,"endTime":2174.67,"body":"Next, I spoke to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2172.15,"endTime":2174.67,"body":"Colin Angus about the science"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2174.67,"endTime":2177.64,"body":"and development of the UK, his"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2174.67,"endTime":2177.64,"body":"weekly drinking guidelines."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2177.79,"endTime":2180.61,"body":"Thanks so much for joining me,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2177.79,"endTime":2180.61,"body":"Colin. Can you just tell me"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2180.61,"endTime":2183.85,"body":"briefly a bit about what you do?"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2180.61,"endTime":2183.85,"body":"And then yeah, we'll we'll try"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2183.85,"endTime":2187.36,"body":"and kind of unpick this question"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2183.85,"endTime":2187.36,"body":"around 14 units, how much risk"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2187.36,"endTime":2188.32,"body":"does it really raise?"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2188.35,"endTime":2191.08,"body":"Yeah, so I'm a"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2188.35,"endTime":2191.08,"body":"senior research fellow at the"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2191.08,"endTime":2196.09,"body":"University of Sheffield and my"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2191.08,"endTime":2196.09,"body":"work is primarily modelling the"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2196.09,"endTime":2200.32,"body":"effect of alcohol policies on"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2196.09,"endTime":2200.32,"body":"drinking behaviour and unhealth."},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2200.38,"endTime":2202.78,"body":"So I've done a lot of work on"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2200.38,"endTime":2202.78,"body":"sort of mathematical modelling"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2202.78,"endTime":2208.51,"body":"relating drinking to health"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2202.78,"endTime":2208.51,"body":"outcomes. And when the UK Chief"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2208.51,"endTime":2211.39,"body":"Medical Officer announced that"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2208.51,"endTime":2211.39,"body":"they were going to review the"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2211.39,"endTime":2215.26,"body":"drinking guidelines A few years"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2211.39,"endTime":2215.26,"body":"ago, myself, and some of my"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2215.26,"endTime":2219.16,"body":"colleagues did some modelling"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2215.26,"endTime":2219.16,"body":"work as part of that review, to"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2219.16,"endTime":2222.79,"body":"look at how the risks the health"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2219.16,"endTime":2222.79,"body":"risks associated with drinking"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2222.82,"endTime":2225.88,"body":"changed at different levels. So"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2222.82,"endTime":2225.88,"body":"that was to inform the"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2225.91,"endTime":2229.12,"body":"development of the guidelines."},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2225.91,"endTime":2229.12,"body":"So the there are obviously lots"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2229.12,"endTime":2232.12,"body":"of different ways in which you"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2229.12,"endTime":2232.12,"body":"can set drinking guidelines. And"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2232.12,"endTime":2236.11,"body":"in the past, they've generally"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2232.12,"endTime":2236.11,"body":"been set by getting a load of"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2236.14,"endTime":2240.13,"body":"clever people who know stuff in"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2236.14,"endTime":2240.13,"body":"a room and kind of locking the"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2240.13,"endTime":2243.31,"body":"door until they all come up with"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2240.13,"endTime":2243.31,"body":"what they think is a, you know,"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2243.55,"endTime":2247.12,"body":"a good answer. And I was an"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2243.55,"endTime":2247.12,"body":"acceptable guideline based on"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2247.12,"endTime":2250.63,"body":"all that they know about the"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2247.12,"endTime":2250.63,"body":"evidence in terms of the health"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2250.63,"endTime":2254.56,"body":"harms associated with drinking,"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2250.63,"endTime":2254.56,"body":"but more recently, with kind of,"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2254.65,"endTime":2259.57,"body":"you know, improvements in the"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2254.65,"endTime":2259.57,"body":"evidence and a tendency of like"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2259.57,"endTime":2263.59,"body":"a desire to try and be a little"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2259.57,"endTime":2263.59,"body":"bit more rigorous about it,"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2263.62,"endTime":2266.53,"body":"right, rather than just some"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2263.62,"endTime":2266.53,"body":"people criticise the previous"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2266.53,"endTime":2269.05,"body":"drinking guidelines is basically"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2266.53,"endTime":2269.05,"body":"just sort of sticking a finger"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2269.05,"endTime":2273.91,"body":"in the air. And we recognise"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2269.05,"endTime":2273.91,"body":"this. So there's two different"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2273.91,"endTime":2276.88,"body":"approaches that have been used"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2273.91,"endTime":2276.88,"body":"in other countries to try and"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2276.88,"endTime":2280.69,"body":"sort of empirically guide the"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2276.88,"endTime":2280.69,"body":"process of setting drinking"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2280.69,"endTime":2284.65,"body":"guidelines. And they're known as"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2280.69,"endTime":2284.65,"body":"the Canadian and the Australian"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2284.65,"endTime":2287.98,"body":"approaches, because they were"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2284.65,"endTime":2287.98,"body":"first used in Canada and"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2287.98,"endTime":2290.95,"body":"Australia. So the Canadian"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2287.98,"endTime":2290.95,"body":"approach says that you set your"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2290.95,"endTime":2294.67,"body":"guideline, at the point at"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2290.95,"endTime":2294.67,"body":"which, if you drink any more"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2294.67,"endTime":2299.41,"body":"than that your risk of death is"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2294.67,"endTime":2299.41,"body":"higher than someone who doesn't"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2299.41,"endTime":2302.5,"body":"drink at all. Okay, so it's it's"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2299.41,"endTime":2302.5,"body":"saying that you set the"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2302.5,"endTime":2305.77,"body":"guideline at the point at which"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2302.5,"endTime":2305.77,"body":"your risk is elevated at all,"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2305.95,"endTime":2309.52,"body":"right? So any point of which"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2305.95,"endTime":2309.52,"body":"drinking increases your risk of"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2309.52,"endTime":2313.72,"body":"death. And the Australian"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2309.52,"endTime":2313.72,"body":"approach says that, well,"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2313.72,"endTime":2317.29,"body":"actually, you know, all sorts of"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2313.72,"endTime":2317.29,"body":"things that we do in the world"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2317.32,"endTime":2320.41,"body":"are risky, and, you know, have"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2317.32,"endTime":2320.41,"body":"risks associated with them,"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2320.44,"endTime":2323.26,"body":"right, you know, driving a car"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2320.44,"endTime":2323.26,"body":"is risky, but we still drive"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2323.26,"endTime":2326.68,"body":"cars all the time. And so it's"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2323.26,"endTime":2326.68,"body":"based on this idea that there is"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2326.68,"endTime":2329.98,"body":"an acceptable level of risk that"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2326.68,"endTime":2329.98,"body":"we're willing to take on when we"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2329.98,"endTime":2333.49,"body":"do stuff. And so they came with"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2329.98,"endTime":2333.49,"body":"the idea that an acceptable"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2333.49,"endTime":2338.5,"body":"level of risk was a 1% lifetime"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2333.49,"endTime":2338.5,"body":"chance of dying as a result of,"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2338.74,"endTime":2342.07,"body":"of your drinking. The idea there"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2338.74,"endTime":2342.07,"body":"is that you set the drinking"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2342.07,"endTime":2344.17,"body":"guideline to the point to which"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2342.07,"endTime":2344.17,"body":"if you drink at that level,"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2344.17,"endTime":2347.17,"body":"across your whole life, there's"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2344.17,"endTime":2347.17,"body":"a 1% chance of that drinking"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2347.17,"endTime":2350.08,"body":"being the thing that will kill"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2347.17,"endTime":2350.08,"body":"you. And so with my colleagues"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2350.08,"endTime":2355.06,"body":"we took in so we reviewed the"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2350.08,"endTime":2355.06,"body":"latest evidence on associations"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2355.06,"endTime":2360.52,"body":"between drinking levels and"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2355.06,"endTime":2360.52,"body":"risks of death for a whole range"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2360.52,"endTime":2364.39,"body":"of different health conditions."},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2360.52,"endTime":2364.39,"body":"And then use that to try and"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2364.6,"endTime":2367.33,"body":"estimate the risk associated"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2364.6,"endTime":2367.33,"body":"with drinking at different"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2367.33,"endTime":2369.49,"body":"levels to use these two"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2367.33,"endTime":2369.49,"body":"different approaches to say,"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2369.49,"endTime":2372.16,"body":"Well, if you use the Canadian"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2369.49,"endTime":2372.16,"body":"approach, then your drinking"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2372.16,"endTime":2374.98,"body":"guideline is going to be x and"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2372.16,"endTime":2374.98,"body":"if you use the Australian"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2374.98,"endTime":2376.6,"body":"approach, it's going to be why."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2376.779,"endTime":2380.049,"body":"So does our our"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2376.779,"endTime":2380.049,"body":"kind of current 14 unit a week"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2380.049,"endTime":2383.649,"body":"guideline? Was it an attempt to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2380.049,"endTime":2383.649,"body":"lie somewhere between the two or"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2383.89,"endTime":2387.85,"body":"Well, it's"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2383.89,"endTime":2387.85,"body":"complicated because you know,"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2387.85,"endTime":2390.88,"body":"the relationship between"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2387.85,"endTime":2390.88,"body":"drinking and health is a very"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2391.18,"endTime":2395.23,"body":"multifaceted and complicated"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2391.18,"endTime":2395.23,"body":"thing because there are a whole"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2395.23,"endTime":2397.69,"body":"range of different health"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2395.23,"endTime":2397.69,"body":"conditions that are affected by"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2397.69,"endTime":2400.9,"body":"alcohol, and these include"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2397.69,"endTime":2400.9,"body":"conditions They're associated"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2400.9,"endTime":2405.73,"body":"with long term chronic drinking."},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2400.9,"endTime":2405.73,"body":"So that things like liver"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2405.73,"endTime":2409.42,"body":"disease, but also cancer and"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2405.73,"endTime":2409.42,"body":"heart disease. And then there"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2409.42,"endTime":2413.47,"body":"are also health conditions"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2409.42,"endTime":2413.47,"body":"associated with intoxication. So"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2413.47,"endTime":2417.37,"body":"things like alcohol poisoning"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2413.47,"endTime":2417.37,"body":"and injuries. And so you have to"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2417.37,"endTime":2421.21,"body":"try and sort of account for both"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2417.37,"endTime":2421.21,"body":"of these things, right. So the"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2421.3,"endTime":2423.4,"body":"chronic health conditions,"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2421.3,"endTime":2423.4,"body":"they're only related to how much"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2423.4,"endTime":2426.67,"body":"you drink on average, whereas"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2423.4,"endTime":2426.67,"body":"these acute conditions related"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2426.67,"endTime":2429.4,"body":"to intoxication, they're also"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2426.67,"endTime":2429.4,"body":"related to the patterns in which"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2429.4,"endTime":2432.61,"body":"you drink. So if you have a, you"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2429.4,"endTime":2432.61,"body":"know, two people who are"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2432.61,"endTime":2435.19,"body":"drinking at the same average"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2432.61,"endTime":2435.19,"body":"rate to people who are drinking"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2435.19,"endTime":2438.82,"body":"out the guidelines, let's say,"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2435.19,"endTime":2438.82,"body":"14 units a week, and one of them"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2438.82,"endTime":2442.87,"body":"has two units every day, and the"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2438.82,"endTime":2442.87,"body":"other one has 14 units on one"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2442.87,"endTime":2446.53,"body":"day, they're not facing the same"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2442.87,"endTime":2446.53,"body":"risk, right? They probably have"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2446.53,"endTime":2450.16,"body":"similar chronic risks, but their"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2446.53,"endTime":2450.16,"body":"risks of alcohol poisoning or"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2450.16,"endTime":2454.15,"body":"their risks of injury are very"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2450.16,"endTime":2454.15,"body":"different, because one of them"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2454.15,"endTime":2457.66,"body":"is, you know, is getting drunk,"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2454.15,"endTime":2457.66,"body":"probably, and the other one"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2457.93,"endTime":2460.87,"body":"isn't. And so it's important to"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2457.93,"endTime":2460.87,"body":"try and take that into account."},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2460.87,"endTime":2465.16,"body":"So we modelled, we model the"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2460.87,"endTime":2465.16,"body":"risk associated with different"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2465.16,"endTime":2468.91,"body":"patterns of drinking, right? So"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2465.16,"endTime":2468.91,"body":"it's not that we can say, Oh,"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2468.91,"endTime":2473.86,"body":"the Australian approach says the"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2468.91,"endTime":2473.86,"body":"guidelines should be 14, because"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2473.89,"endTime":2477.55,"body":"we said with the Australian"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2473.89,"endTime":2477.55,"body":"approach, if you assume that"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2477.55,"endTime":2480.7,"body":"everyone drinks all of their"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2477.55,"endTime":2480.7,"body":"alcohol, on one day of the week"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2480.79,"endTime":2483.64,"body":"is this. And that gives you a"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2480.79,"endTime":2483.64,"body":"much lower guideline, because"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2483.64,"endTime":2486.97,"body":"that's a much riskier pattern of"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2483.64,"endTime":2486.97,"body":"drinking, compared to saying, If"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2486.97,"endTime":2489.64,"body":"everyone spreads out nicely"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2486.97,"endTime":2489.64,"body":"across the seven days of the"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2489.64,"endTime":2493.84,"body":"week, so sort of 14 is kind of"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2489.64,"endTime":2493.84,"body":"somewhere in the middle of all"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2493.84,"endTime":2496.87,"body":"of these different numbers that"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2493.84,"endTime":2496.87,"body":"we produced, essentially. So we"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2496.87,"endTime":2501.16,"body":"had separate results for men and"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2496.87,"endTime":2501.16,"body":"for women, separate results for"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2501.16,"endTime":2503.29,"body":"the Canadian and the Australian"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2501.16,"endTime":2503.29,"body":"guys. And then there's separate"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2503.29,"endTime":2505.27,"body":"results for these different"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2503.29,"endTime":2505.27,"body":"patterns of drinking. So"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2505.27,"endTime":2508.57,"body":"there's, you know, big tables"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2505.27,"endTime":2508.57,"body":"with whole slews of numbers in"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2508.57,"endTime":2513.28,"body":"them. And the 14 was is kind of"},{"speaker":"Colin Angus","startTime":2508.57,"endTime":2513.28,"body":"somewhere in the middle ish."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2513.37,"endTime":2516.07,"body":"So yeah, it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2513.37,"endTime":2516.07,"body":"really, really well explained."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2516.07,"endTime":2520.78,"body":"And I think the point about, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2516.07,"endTime":2520.78,"body":"know, saving up versus spreading"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2520.78,"endTime":2523.27,"body":"it out is really important,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2520.78,"endTime":2523.27,"body":"because I think that question"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2523.27,"endTime":2526.57,"body":"does come up a lot people want"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2523.27,"endTime":2526.57,"body":"to know, you know, what's worse"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2526.57,"endTime":2529.9,"body":"to to, you know, to binge drink"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2526.57,"endTime":2529.9,"body":"or to drink? Less, but but more"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2529.9,"endTime":2533.08,"body":"often, and, you know, again, it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2529.9,"endTime":2533.08,"body":"just depends on so many things."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2533.08,"endTime":2536.11,"body":"But I keep assuming there was at"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2533.08,"endTime":2536.11,"body":"least an equal amount, then then"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2536.11,"endTime":2540.13,"body":"they're just different types of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2536.11,"endTime":2540.13,"body":"risk. And, yeah, it really is so"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2540.19,"endTime":2545.23,"body":"individually dependent. But"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2540.19,"endTime":2545.23,"body":"yeah, any reflections on how we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2545.32,"endTime":2548.47,"body":"then try and communicate this"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2545.32,"endTime":2548.47,"body":"that, as I discussed with Tom,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2548.47,"endTime":2552.13,"body":"that there's this 14 unit a week"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2548.47,"endTime":2552.13,"body":"guideline, albeit the guideline"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2552.13,"endTime":2556.63,"body":"itself has kind of small print,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2552.13,"endTime":2556.63,"body":"if you like, you should take was"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2556.63,"endTime":2560.62,"body":"it three days off for me to set"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2556.63,"endTime":2560.62,"body":"it suggested is to drink three"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2560.62,"endTime":2563.53,"body":"days? I think that's right."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2560.62,"endTime":2563.53,"body":"Yeah, I was kind of go for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2563.53,"endTime":2567.7,"body":"three, because I think it suits"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2563.53,"endTime":2567.7,"body":"me better. But yeah, and you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2567.7,"endTime":2570.88,"body":"know, it doesn't specify don't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2567.7,"endTime":2570.88,"body":"binge drink, or how much or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2570.88,"endTime":2574.09,"body":"binges but it says, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2570.88,"endTime":2574.09,"body":"don't, don't drink it all in one"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2574.09,"endTime":2577.51,"body":"go. So they did build in some"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2574.09,"endTime":2577.51,"body":"kind of caveats to it, didn't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2577.51,"endTime":2580.75,"body":"they, but it's still essentially"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2577.51,"endTime":2580.75,"body":"a kind of one size fits all. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2580.75,"endTime":2584.05,"body":"that does present the challenge"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2580.75,"endTime":2584.05,"body":"that people know that they're"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2584.05,"endTime":2586.84,"body":"not an average person or that,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2584.05,"endTime":2586.84,"body":"you know, as I discussed with"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2586.84,"endTime":2590.29,"body":"Tom, that people face different"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2586.84,"endTime":2590.29,"body":"levels of value on on their"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2590.29,"endTime":2593.2,"body":"drinking for different reasons,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2590.29,"endTime":2593.2,"body":"and in different contexts. So,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2593.26,"endTime":2597.28,"body":"you know, what, how best to try"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2593.26,"endTime":2597.28,"body":"and navigate this kind of risk"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2597.28,"endTime":2600.94,"body":"of this kind of all or nothing"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2597.28,"endTime":2600.94,"body":"interpretation of this threshold"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2600.94,"endTime":2602.11,"body":"of 14 units?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2602.29,"endTime":2605.38,"body":"Yeah, I think it's,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2602.29,"endTime":2605.38,"body":"it's, it's incredibly"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2605.71,"endTime":2609.04,"body":"challenging. I think part of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2605.71,"endTime":2609.04,"body":"part of the difficulty is that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2609.04,"endTime":2611.29,"body":"as you say, this is an average,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2609.04,"endTime":2611.29,"body":"right? This is this is sort of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2611.29,"endTime":2614.89,"body":"the guideline for an average"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2611.29,"endTime":2614.89,"body":"person. And obviously, not many"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2614.89,"endTime":2618.16,"body":"people are actually average. But"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2614.89,"endTime":2618.16,"body":"it's also it's also tricky,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2618.16,"endTime":2622.18,"body":"because the risks that any"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2618.16,"endTime":2622.18,"body":"individual faces are, you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2622.18,"endTime":2624.97,"body":"there's a whole host of things"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2622.18,"endTime":2624.97,"body":"influencing that. So there are"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2625.06,"endTime":2629.08,"body":"biological factors. There are"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2625.06,"endTime":2629.08,"body":"behavioural factors. And then"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2629.08,"endTime":2631.84,"body":"there's kind of situational"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2629.08,"endTime":2631.84,"body":"factors, right? So, so"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2631.84,"endTime":2634.9,"body":"behavioural factors are stuff"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2631.84,"endTime":2634.9,"body":"like the drinking patterns, the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2634.9,"endTime":2637.63,"body":"ways in which you're drinking,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2634.9,"endTime":2637.63,"body":"and obviously, you have some"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2637.63,"endTime":2641.35,"body":"control over that. And you can"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2637.63,"endTime":2641.35,"body":"choose to drink your 14 units,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2641.35,"endTime":2644.41,"body":"or however much you're drinking"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2641.35,"endTime":2644.41,"body":"in, you know, a smaller number"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2644.41,"endTime":2647.35,"body":"of heavier drinking occasions,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2644.41,"endTime":2647.35,"body":"or you can spread it out more,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2647.77,"endTime":2649.48,"body":"but you're much you're not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2647.77,"endTime":2649.48,"body":"really in control of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2649.48,"endTime":2652.57,"body":"biological differences, right?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2649.48,"endTime":2652.57,"body":"So men and women face different"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2652.57,"endTime":2656.74,"body":"biological risks associated with"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2652.57,"endTime":2656.74,"body":"drinking, for example. And then"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2656.74,"endTime":2658.81,"body":"there's the sort of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2656.74,"endTime":2658.81,"body":"situational risk, which is kind"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2658.81,"endTime":2664.09,"body":"of other factors, things like"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2658.81,"endTime":2664.09,"body":"being in poor health, which you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2664.09,"endTime":2666.85,"body":"don't necessarily have direct"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2664.09,"endTime":2666.85,"body":"control over, which can also"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2666.85,"endTime":2672.25,"body":"feed into to your risk. So"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2666.85,"endTime":2672.25,"body":"although you can modify your own"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2672.25,"endTime":2675.43,"body":"risks to a certain extent,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2672.25,"endTime":2675.43,"body":"right, you can, so you could"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2675.61,"endTime":2680.17,"body":"drink more heavily, but in a way"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2675.61,"endTime":2680.17,"body":"that sort of moderated your own"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2680.17,"endTime":2684.7,"body":"risk by spreading your drinking"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2680.17,"endTime":2684.7,"body":"out, for example, but how you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2684.7,"endTime":2687.91,"body":"try and communicate all of that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2684.7,"endTime":2687.91,"body":"to individuals is really, really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2687.91,"endTime":2691.33,"body":"tricky. So something the big"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2687.91,"endTime":2691.33,"body":"change when the the new drinking"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2691.33,"endTime":2693.7,"body":"guidelines were announced is the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2691.33,"endTime":2693.7,"body":"fact that the male guideline"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2693.7,"endTime":2698.02,"body":"came down from 21 to 14 units to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2693.7,"endTime":2698.02,"body":"join the female guideline, and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2698.02,"endTime":2700.66,"body":"there's quite a lot of sort of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2698.02,"endTime":2700.66,"body":"kickback. against that people"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2700.66,"endTime":2704.5,"body":"didn't really like it. And I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2700.66,"endTime":2704.5,"body":"think the the, the rationale for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2704.5,"endTime":2707.71,"body":"bringing it down is actually"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2704.5,"endTime":2707.71,"body":"really interesting. So if all"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2707.71,"endTime":2710.89,"body":"else being equal, if a man and a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2707.71,"endTime":2710.89,"body":"woman drink the same amount of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2710.89,"endTime":2714.1,"body":"alcohol, the woman will"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2710.89,"endTime":2714.1,"body":"generally face a slightly higher"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2714.1,"endTime":2717.88,"body":"risk because of biological"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2714.1,"endTime":2717.88,"body":"factors, right. And so that's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2717.88,"endTime":2722.05,"body":"sort of always historically been"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2717.88,"endTime":2722.05,"body":"the reasoning behind men having"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2722.05,"endTime":2724.36,"body":"higher guidelines, which has"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2722.05,"endTime":2724.36,"body":"been the case in lots of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2724.36,"endTime":2727.78,"body":"countries around the world. But"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2724.36,"endTime":2727.78,"body":"actually, what we found is that,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2727.87,"endTime":2732.82,"body":"although that's true, basically,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2727.87,"endTime":2732.82,"body":"men do more stupid stuff. So men"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2732.82,"endTime":2735.88,"body":"are much less good than women at"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2732.82,"endTime":2735.88,"body":"moderating the behavioural"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2735.88,"endTime":2739.0,"body":"risks, okay, we're much more"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2735.88,"endTime":2739.0,"body":"likely to get drunk and get in a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2739.0,"endTime":2742.48,"body":"fight or whatever. And so"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2739.0,"endTime":2742.48,"body":"actually, those two things kind"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2742.48,"endTime":2745.99,"body":"of cancel each other out. So at"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2742.48,"endTime":2745.99,"body":"low levels of relatively lower"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2745.99,"endTime":2748.75,"body":"levels of drinking, men are at a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2745.99,"endTime":2748.75,"body":"higher risk, because these"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2748.75,"endTime":2751.27,"body":"behavioural factors are"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2748.75,"endTime":2751.27,"body":"dominating. And then at higher"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2751.27,"endTime":2754.84,"body":"levels of drinking above the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2751.27,"endTime":2754.84,"body":"guideline, women face a higher"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2754.84,"endTime":2758.08,"body":"risk, because of the biological"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2754.84,"endTime":2758.08,"body":"factors are dominant in which,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2758.17,"endTime":2760.18,"body":"you know, which is really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2758.17,"endTime":2760.18,"body":"interesting, I think, can kind"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2760.18,"endTime":2763.87,"body":"of, you know, speaks to the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2760.18,"endTime":2763.87,"body":"complexity of trying to, to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2763.87,"endTime":2767.23,"body":"explain this, right, because"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2763.87,"endTime":2767.23,"body":"the, you know, you can you can"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2767.23,"endTime":2769.72,"body":"control those behavioural"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2767.23,"endTime":2769.72,"body":"factors to some extent, but you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2769.72,"endTime":2772.12,"body":"can't control the biological"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2769.72,"endTime":2772.12,"body":"factors."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2772.15,"endTime":2775.15,"body":"Yes. So very"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2772.15,"endTime":2775.15,"body":"interesting. And I suppose I do,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2775.15,"endTime":2778.45,"body":"though, think, you know, and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2775.15,"endTime":2778.45,"body":"this is just kind of based on an"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2778.45,"endTime":2781.12,"body":"assumption that the people are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2778.45,"endTime":2781.12,"body":"more interested in the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2781.12,"endTime":2785.38,"body":"guidelines from a health risk or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2781.12,"endTime":2785.38,"body":"long term health risk point of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2785.38,"endTime":2788.77,"body":"view, because people know that,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2785.38,"endTime":2788.77,"body":"you know, when I think when I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2788.86,"endTime":2792.37,"body":"drink problematically, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2788.86,"endTime":2792.37,"body":"I knew that I was probably more"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2792.37,"endTime":2794.95,"body":"likely to do something stupid,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2792.37,"endTime":2794.95,"body":"and that, you know, I was"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2794.95,"endTime":2798.01,"body":"getting hangovers, and they"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2794.95,"endTime":2798.01,"body":"probably weren't a good sign, I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2798.01,"endTime":2799.81,"body":"was never really thinking about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2798.01,"endTime":2799.81,"body":"the long term health"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2799.81,"endTime":2803.53,"body":"consequences. So I think, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2799.81,"endTime":2803.53,"body":"know, people were probably more"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2803.53,"endTime":2806.98,"body":"aware of the kind of short term"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2803.53,"endTime":2806.98,"body":"acute risks and already"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2806.98,"endTime":2810.1,"body":"factoring those in a bit more,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2806.98,"endTime":2810.1,"body":"but but the question mark really"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2810.1,"endTime":2813.67,"body":"is probably more Well, what is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2810.1,"endTime":2813.67,"body":"my risk of those longer term"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2813.67,"endTime":2816.79,"body":"health consequences? And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2813.67,"endTime":2816.79,"body":"obviously, things like cancer,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2816.82,"endTime":2819.76,"body":"you know, highly political,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2816.82,"endTime":2819.76,"body":"because of the resonance that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2819.76,"endTime":2822.91,"body":"has and, you know, the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2819.76,"endTime":2822.91,"body":"uncertainty and, you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2822.91,"endTime":2826.51,"body":"arguably the very low level of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2822.91,"endTime":2826.51,"body":"risk of cancer from low levels"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2826.51,"endTime":2829.57,"body":"of alcohol use. But yeah, it's"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2826.51,"endTime":2829.57,"body":"also so complex, because as when"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2829.57,"endTime":2833.38,"body":"you said, you know, well, if you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2829.57,"endTime":2833.38,"body":"minimise your risk by spreading"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2833.38,"endTime":2836.98,"body":"it out a bit more than I agreed"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2833.38,"endTime":2836.98,"body":"on a technical level, but then"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2836.98,"endTime":2839.8,"body":"at the same time, there's other"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2836.98,"endTime":2839.8,"body":"knock on risks from drinking,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2839.8,"endTime":2842.68,"body":"maybe less, but more often,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2839.8,"endTime":2842.68,"body":"which might include what we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2842.68,"endTime":2845.8,"body":"might call habit, or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2842.68,"endTime":2845.8,"body":"psychological dependence, or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2845.8,"endTime":2849.13,"body":"tolerance, or whatever. And that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2845.8,"endTime":2849.13,"body":"thing creeping up over time and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2849.13,"endTime":2853.24,"body":"possibly leading up to more"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2849.13,"endTime":2853.24,"body":"drinking, so it's just endlessly"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2853.24,"endTime":2857.17,"body":"complicated, and so many ifs and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2853.24,"endTime":2857.17,"body":"Oreos, he could attach to every"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2857.17,"endTime":2858.19,"body":"individual, I guess."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2858.28,"endTime":2863.23,"body":"Yeah, absolutely. So I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2858.28,"endTime":2863.23,"body":"think that habit ideas quite is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2863.23,"endTime":2866.14,"body":"really interesting, because so"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2863.23,"endTime":2866.14,"body":"something that we looked at, but"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2866.14,"endTime":2869.05,"body":"which wasn't really given very"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2866.14,"endTime":2869.05,"body":"much provenance in sort of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2869.08,"endTime":2872.95,"body":"final the guidelines themselves"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2869.08,"endTime":2872.95,"body":"is we looked at how risk varies"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2872.95,"endTime":2877.84,"body":"with age. And basically, at"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2872.95,"endTime":2877.84,"body":"younger ages, alcohol is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2877.84,"endTime":2880.45,"body":"responsible for a higher"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2877.84,"endTime":2880.45,"body":"proportion of deaths,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2880.51,"endTime":2884.2,"body":"particularly among young men."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2880.51,"endTime":2884.2,"body":"But at older ages, obviously,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2884.2,"endTime":2887.17,"body":"it's responsible for there are a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2884.2,"endTime":2887.17,"body":"lot more deaths, right people,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2887.17,"endTime":2889.66,"body":"you know, a lot more people"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2887.17,"endTime":2889.66,"body":"dying, thankfully, at older ages"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2889.66,"endTime":2892.18,"body":"than younger ages. And so in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2889.66,"endTime":2892.18,"body":"absolute terms, alcohol is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2892.18,"endTime":2896.29,"body":"responsible for a lot more"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2892.18,"endTime":2896.29,"body":"deaths in, in older ages. And so"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2896.29,"endTime":2901.69,"body":"if you were setting a guideline"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2896.29,"endTime":2901.69,"body":"in terms of absolute risk, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2901.69,"endTime":2904.24,"body":"would say that younger people"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2901.69,"endTime":2904.24,"body":"can have a higher guideline,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2904.24,"endTime":2907.6,"body":"because their absolute risk of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2904.24,"endTime":2907.6,"body":"death from drinking at higher"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2907.6,"endTime":2911.71,"body":"levels is much less than people"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2907.6,"endTime":2911.71,"body":"are older ages. Okay, so you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2911.71,"endTime":2913.51,"body":"could make an argument there"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2911.71,"endTime":2913.51,"body":"that you should have higher"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2913.51,"endTime":2915.85,"body":"drinking guidelines for young"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2913.51,"endTime":2915.85,"body":"people and older people. But"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2915.97,"endTime":2918.82,"body":"there's two problems with that."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2915.97,"endTime":2918.82,"body":"And one of them is this sort of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2918.82,"endTime":2922.21,"body":"habit, idea that you're talking"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2918.82,"endTime":2922.21,"body":"about, right? In a sense, the,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2922.42,"endTime":2925.21,"body":"if you just say, Oh, well, it's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2922.42,"endTime":2925.21,"body":"fine for younger people to drink"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2925.63,"endTime":2929.65,"body":"more, then maybe that means that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2925.63,"endTime":2929.65,"body":"makes it more likely that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2929.89,"endTime":2932.47,"body":"they're going to become older"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2929.89,"endTime":2932.47,"body":"people who drink more, because"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2932.47,"endTime":2937.36,"body":"it sort of is become a habit."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2932.47,"endTime":2937.36,"body":"But there's also the fact that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2937.39,"endTime":2941.56,"body":"the association between when you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2937.39,"endTime":2941.56,"body":"drink and when you face the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2941.56,"endTime":2945.49,"body":"risk, can actually like that,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2941.56,"endTime":2945.49,"body":"like there could be a long time,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2945.82,"endTime":2948.79,"body":"it can take a long time for the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2945.82,"endTime":2948.79,"body":"full health impact of your"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2948.79,"endTime":2952.69,"body":"drinking to develop over time."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2948.79,"endTime":2952.69,"body":"And so even though the young"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2952.69,"endTime":2956.95,"body":"people might not be facing those"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2952.69,"endTime":2956.95,"body":"risks of their drinking, now,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2957.13,"endTime":2960.4,"body":"they will have to face the risks"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2957.13,"endTime":2960.4,"body":"in the future of their drinking"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2960.4,"endTime":2963.97,"body":"now, as you see what I mean. So,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2960.4,"endTime":2963.97,"body":"you know, 20 years down the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2963.97,"endTime":2966.49,"body":"line, they might face an"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2963.97,"endTime":2966.49,"body":"increased risk of developing"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2966.49,"endTime":2970.21,"body":"cancer because of the drinking"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2966.49,"endTime":2970.21,"body":"they were doing now. And so that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2970.21,"endTime":2973.48,"body":"makes everything a bit more a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2970.21,"endTime":2973.48,"body":"little bit trickier,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2973.9,"endTime":2976.99,"body":"or just impossible"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2973.9,"endTime":2976.99,"body":"to you know, it just comes back"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2977.02,"endTime":2980.62,"body":"you know, how on earth do we"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2977.02,"endTime":2980.62,"body":"communicate this versus You"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2980.62,"endTime":2983.8,"body":"know, this this single threshold"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2980.62,"endTime":2983.8,"body":"guideline? I mean, I think I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2983.8,"endTime":2986.95,"body":"quite like kind of traffic light"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2983.8,"endTime":2986.95,"body":"systems. You know, in the past"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2986.95,"endTime":2990.58,"body":"we've had how called risk based"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2986.95,"endTime":2990.58,"body":"messages with a green and Amber"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2990.58,"endTime":2995.41,"body":"and red, no kind of arrow that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2990.58,"endTime":2995.41,"body":"tries to reflect a spectrum"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2995.41,"endTime":2998.83,"body":"nature of it, ie the you know,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2995.41,"endTime":2998.83,"body":"the more you into red or above"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2998.83,"endTime":3002.01,"body":"that level, the higher the Risk"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":2998.83,"endTime":3002.01,"body":"will be still obviously goes"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3002.01,"endTime":3005.07,"body":"nowhere close to capturing some"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3002.01,"endTime":3005.07,"body":"of the nuances that that we're"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3005.07,"endTime":3008.67,"body":"touching on, but at least it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3005.07,"endTime":3008.67,"body":"does convey it's not a binary or"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3008.67,"endTime":3012.72,"body":"or nothing. It's not 14 units,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3008.67,"endTime":3012.72,"body":"once you hit that, you know, is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3012.72,"endTime":3016.8,"body":"death. And if you stick to below"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3012.72,"endTime":3016.8,"body":"that there's no risk at all. Any"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3016.8,"endTime":3017.55,"body":"other ideas?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3019.68,"endTime":3022.83,"body":"I mean, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3019.68,"endTime":3022.83,"body":"totally agree with you on that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3022.83,"endTime":3025.62,"body":"point. And I, you know, I think"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3022.83,"endTime":3025.62,"body":"it's important that we're"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3025.62,"endTime":3028.59,"body":"careful in terms of the way we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3025.62,"endTime":3028.59,"body":"talk about drinking guidelines,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3028.59,"endTime":3031.62,"body":"right. I don't like them being"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3028.59,"endTime":3031.62,"body":"called Safe Drinking guidelines,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3031.62,"endTime":3032.28,"body":"for example,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3033.27,"endTime":3036.09,"body":"limits, because it"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3033.27,"endTime":3036.09,"body":"implies that limit for me is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3036.09,"endTime":3038.49,"body":"like a speed limit, you have to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3036.09,"endTime":3038.49,"body":"stick to it. So"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3038.699,"endTime":3042.209,"body":"yeah, absolutely. You"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3038.699,"endTime":3042.209,"body":"know, I think so I think it's,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3042.239,"endTime":3045.599,"body":"you know, they're presented as"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3042.239,"endTime":3045.599,"body":"lower risk guidelines. And, and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3045.599,"endTime":3047.939,"body":"I think the wording in the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3045.599,"endTime":3047.939,"body":"guidelines themselves is sort of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3047.969,"endTime":3051.989,"body":"is okay, it's talking about, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3047.969,"endTime":3051.989,"body":"know, generally, if you stick"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3051.989,"endTime":3055.499,"body":"within these guidelines most of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3051.989,"endTime":3055.499,"body":"the time, then your risk should"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3055.499,"endTime":3057.629,"body":"be relatively low. You know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3055.499,"endTime":3057.629,"body":"it's that kind of slightly"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3057.629,"endTime":3061.739,"body":"woolly language, which I think"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3057.629,"endTime":3061.739,"body":"is appropriate. Right? It is,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3061.829,"endTime":3064.469,"body":"you know, it is useful for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3061.829,"endTime":3064.469,"body":"people to have an understanding"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3064.469,"endTime":3069.869,"body":"that it is a spectrum, but also"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3064.469,"endTime":3069.869,"body":"that, you know, that the overall"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3069.869,"endTime":3073.799,"body":"risk curve gets steeper the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3069.869,"endTime":3073.799,"body":"further up the curve you are. So"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3074.129,"endTime":3078.059,"body":"you know, that the additional"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3074.129,"endTime":3078.059,"body":"risk of drinking one more unit"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3078.239,"endTime":3081.779,"body":"is more for someone who's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3078.239,"endTime":3081.779,"body":"drinking 50 units a week than"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3081.779,"endTime":3083.549,"body":"for someone who's drinking 20"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3081.779,"endTime":3083.549,"body":"units a week."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3083.609,"endTime":3086.189,"body":"So essentially,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3083.609,"endTime":3086.189,"body":"the more you drink, the more"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3086.249,"endTime":3089.129,"body":"having one less a day or one"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3086.249,"endTime":3089.129,"body":"less a week, or whatever is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3089.129,"endTime":3091.499,"body":"going to be beneficial for you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3089.129,"endTime":3091.499,"body":"in health care."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3091.529,"endTime":3094.799,"body":"Yeah, yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3091.529,"endTime":3094.799,"body":"Sort of the bigger the marginal"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3094.799,"endTime":3098.969,"body":"gain from each from each unit or"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3094.799,"endTime":3098.969,"body":"drink you cut out, the higher"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3098.969,"endTime":3100.349,"body":"the heavier, you are a drink?"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3100.529,"endTime":3103.499,"body":"Yeah, we see that"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3100.529,"endTime":3103.499,"body":"from the kind of classic curves,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3103.499,"endTime":3107.129,"body":"including, like the J curve, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3103.499,"endTime":3107.129,"body":"know, steeper, the higher up the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3107.129,"endTime":3110.399,"body":"level. Yeah, I mean, that's why,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3107.129,"endTime":3110.399,"body":"I guess we see, you know, liver"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3110.399,"endTime":3113.909,"body":"disease and health harms"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3110.399,"endTime":3113.909,"body":"concentrated in the heaviest"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3113.909,"endTime":3115.889,"body":"sections of drinkers, etc,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3116.069,"endTime":3117.569,"body":"I think there's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3116.069,"endTime":3117.569,"body":"something else that's really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3117.569,"endTime":3120.389,"body":"interesting about the risks"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3117.569,"endTime":3120.389,"body":"associated with drinking, which"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3120.389,"endTime":3126.449,"body":"differentiates it from, say,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3120.389,"endTime":3126.449,"body":"smoking, right. So, if you smoke"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3126.449,"endTime":3129.809,"body":"heavily throughout your life,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3126.449,"endTime":3129.809,"body":"there's a pretty good chance"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3129.809,"endTime":3133.289,"body":"that that smoking is going to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3129.809,"endTime":3133.289,"body":"kill you is a pretty good chance"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3133.289,"endTime":3136.799,"body":"you'll develop lung cancer or"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3133.289,"endTime":3136.799,"body":"you know, something else as a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3136.799,"endTime":3138.629,"body":"result of your smoking. And it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3136.799,"endTime":3138.629,"body":"will kill you,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3138.69,"endTime":3141.24,"body":"I've heard kind of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3138.69,"endTime":3141.24,"body":"try and persuade people to quit"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3141.24,"endTime":3144.15,"body":"by saying, Well, you know, if"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3141.24,"endTime":3144.15,"body":"you quit before you're 30, then"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3144.15,"endTime":3147.06,"body":"it probably won't. But if you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3144.15,"endTime":3147.06,"body":"don't, by that point, and, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3147.06,"endTime":3149.67,"body":"know, I guess it's probably a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3147.06,"endTime":3149.67,"body":"similar kind of thing to the 14"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3149.67,"endTime":3153.15,"body":"units, and might be an"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3149.67,"endTime":3153.15,"body":"aggregated estimate based on"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3153.15,"endTime":3157.08,"body":"some some data. But of course,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3153.15,"endTime":3157.08,"body":"it's still hugely dependent on"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3157.08,"endTime":3160.29,"body":"the individual and their"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3157.08,"endTime":3160.29,"body":"multifactorial circumstances,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3160.62,"endTime":3163.38,"body":"for sure. But but the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3160.62,"endTime":3163.38,"body":"diff, the important difference"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3163.38,"endTime":3166.14,"body":"between smoking and drinking is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3163.38,"endTime":3166.14,"body":"that it's really great, it's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3166.14,"endTime":3168.48,"body":"really likely that your smoking"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3166.14,"endTime":3168.48,"body":"is good, you know, if you're a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3168.48,"endTime":3170.91,"body":"heavy smoker is really likely"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3168.48,"endTime":3170.91,"body":"that smoking is going to be the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3170.91,"endTime":3174.48,"body":"thing that kills you, and you'll"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3170.91,"endTime":3174.48,"body":"die a few years earlier than you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3174.48,"endTime":3177.24,"body":"might otherwise have done."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3174.48,"endTime":3177.24,"body":"Right, you, you maybe die in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3177.24,"endTime":3180.66,"body":"your late 70s, on average,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3177.24,"endTime":3180.66,"body":"rather than in your 80s. Whereas"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3180.75,"endTime":3184.23,"body":"if you're a heavy drinker,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3180.75,"endTime":3184.23,"body":"right, you might face a similar"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3184.59,"endTime":3188.04,"body":"reduction in life expectancy."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3184.59,"endTime":3188.04,"body":"Okay, in terms of the average"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3188.04,"endTime":3190.89,"body":"years of life, you might expect"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3188.04,"endTime":3190.89,"body":"to lose to alcohol. But"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3190.89,"endTime":3194.88,"body":"actually, it's much more of a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3190.89,"endTime":3194.88,"body":"gamble, you're much more likely"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3194.88,"endTime":3197.52,"body":"to die very young, right? There"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3194.88,"endTime":3197.52,"body":"are a lot of heavy drinkers who"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3197.52,"endTime":3200.73,"body":"die in their sort of 40s and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3197.52,"endTime":3200.73,"body":"50s. But then there are other"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3200.76,"endTime":3204.21,"body":"heavy drinkers who don't, and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3200.76,"endTime":3204.21,"body":"who go on to lead other"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3204.24,"endTime":3208.32,"body":"relatively long lives. And so"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3204.24,"endTime":3208.32,"body":"it's much more of a gamble than"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3208.32,"endTime":3211.14,"body":"it is with smoking. If you you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3208.32,"endTime":3211.14,"body":"know, if you drink heavily, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3211.14,"endTime":3214.29,"body":"might face the same expected"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3211.14,"endTime":3214.29,"body":"loss of life. But actually,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3214.32,"endTime":3216.72,"body":"there's a chance that you'll die"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3214.32,"endTime":3216.72,"body":"really young."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3216.779,"endTime":3218.669,"body":"But that's more"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3216.779,"endTime":3218.669,"body":"because of, you know, the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3218.669,"endTime":3221.399,"body":"behavioural consequences, the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3218.669,"endTime":3221.399,"body":"accidents and injuries that are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3221.399,"endTime":3224.759,"body":"likely to be fatal, more so than"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3221.399,"endTime":3224.759,"body":"the health risk, right?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3225.06,"endTime":3228.18,"body":"Well, no, no, not not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3225.06,"endTime":3228.18,"body":"necessarily, because a big part"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3228.18,"endTime":3231.24,"body":"of it is liver disease, for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3228.18,"endTime":3231.24,"body":"example, right? There's some"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3231.24,"endTime":3234.24,"body":"statistics around alcoholic"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3231.24,"endTime":3234.24,"body":"liver disease being one of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3234.24,"endTime":3238.62,"body":"biggest causes of years of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3234.24,"endTime":3238.62,"body":"working life lost by it, it's a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3238.62,"endTime":3241.86,"body":"disease that kills people in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3238.62,"endTime":3241.86,"body":"their sort of in their 40s and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3241.86,"endTime":3245.4,"body":"50s, typically, much more so"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3241.86,"endTime":3245.4,"body":"than smoking related diseases,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3245.4,"endTime":3249.12,"body":"kill people that sort of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3245.4,"endTime":3249.12,"body":"working. So, you know, that's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3249.12,"endTime":3251.88,"body":"interesting, and I don't know"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3249.12,"endTime":3251.88,"body":"how you, you know, whether you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3251.88,"endTime":3254.4,"body":"should communicate that to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3251.88,"endTime":3254.4,"body":"people or how you communicate"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3254.4,"endTime":3258.09,"body":"that to people, right? It's much"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3254.4,"endTime":3258.09,"body":"more of a gamble, I guess, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3258.09,"endTime":3260.64,"body":"know, and some people might"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3258.09,"endTime":3260.64,"body":"fancy their chances. Or maybe"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3260.67,"endTime":3263.4,"body":"maybe that's not so good to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3260.67,"endTime":3263.4,"body":"communicate to people. But, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3263.4,"endTime":3264.21,"body":"know, maybe people have the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3264.21,"endTime":3267.15,"body":"right to know"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3264.21,"endTime":3267.15,"body":"that. And also definitely seen"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3267.18,"endTime":3270.6,"body":"figures on the risk of, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3267.18,"endTime":3270.6,"body":"know, the synergistic effects of"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3270.63,"endTime":3273.63,"body":"being overweight and a heavy"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3270.63,"endTime":3273.63,"body":"drinker. And again, it just"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3273.75,"endTime":3277.08,"body":"really goes through the roof in"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3273.75,"endTime":3277.08,"body":"terms of liver disease risk. So"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3277.2,"endTime":3279.63,"body":"it's not just the power of the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3277.2,"endTime":3279.63,"body":"alcohol as well. It's about all"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3279.63,"endTime":3281.58,"body":"the other stuff. Now,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3279.63,"endTime":3281.58,"body":"absolutely. You"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3281.579,"endTime":3284.999,"body":"know, for the same"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3281.579,"endTime":3284.999,"body":"reason, if you were a smoker and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3284.999,"endTime":3289.109,"body":"a heavy drinker, you face a much"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3284.999,"endTime":3289.109,"body":"greater risk of throat cancer,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3289.109,"endTime":3294.149,"body":"for example. And these, these"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3289.109,"endTime":3294.149,"body":"things aren't factored into the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3294.209,"endTime":3296.909,"body":"calculations that we did the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3294.209,"endTime":3296.909,"body":"modelling we did that informed"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3296.909,"endTime":3300.329,"body":"the guidelines, so we're not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3296.909,"endTime":3300.329,"body":"accounting for those No"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3300.329,"endTime":3304.379,"body":"additional risks. It's also"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3300.329,"endTime":3304.379,"body":"worth saying that all of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3304.379,"endTime":3307.619,"body":"work that we did is only focused"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3304.379,"endTime":3307.619,"body":"on death as as the outcome,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3307.739,"endTime":3311.549,"body":"right, we haven't really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3307.739,"endTime":3311.549,"body":"accounted for ill health. And we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3311.549,"endTime":3316.139,"body":"also haven't all that we looked"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3311.549,"endTime":3316.139,"body":"at is the harm to the health of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3316.139,"endTime":3319.259,"body":"the drinker themselves. We"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3316.139,"endTime":3319.259,"body":"didn't look at any of the harms"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3319.259,"endTime":3322.529,"body":"to other people that might arise"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3319.259,"endTime":3322.529,"body":"from someone's drinking. So in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3322.529,"endTime":3325.079,"body":"those senses, right, if you also"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3322.529,"endTime":3325.079,"body":"consider those, they're only"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3325.079,"endTime":3328.709,"body":"going to lower the guideline,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3325.079,"endTime":3328.709,"body":"because that you know, that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3328.709,"endTime":3331.979,"body":"there are extra risks and harms"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3328.709,"endTime":3331.979,"body":"that we haven't considered, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3331.979,"endTime":3333.839,"body":"know, what economists would call"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3331.979,"endTime":3333.839,"body":"externalities."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3334.41,"endTime":3337.86,"body":"Yeah, definitely"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3334.41,"endTime":3337.86,"body":"no simple take home messages."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3337.92,"endTime":3341.01,"body":"And I just keep thinking back to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3337.92,"endTime":3341.01,"body":"say, a listener who might be"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3341.01,"endTime":3343.65,"body":"thinking, Well, you know, where"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3341.01,"endTime":3343.65,"body":"does this leave me. And now the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3343.65,"endTime":3347.46,"body":"CMOS comment about years ago"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3343.65,"endTime":3347.46,"body":"that I mentioned, with Tom about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3347.46,"endTime":3350.34,"body":"reaching for a glass of wine and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3347.46,"endTime":3350.34,"body":"thinking, the risk of cancer,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3350.37,"endTime":3353.79,"body":"you know, I do drink and you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3350.37,"endTime":3353.79,"body":"know, moderately, having had"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3353.79,"endTime":3356.88,"body":"past problems. But when I say"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3353.79,"endTime":3356.88,"body":"moderately, I mean, basically,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3356.88,"endTime":3359.97,"body":"within the guidelines, but I'm"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3356.88,"endTime":3359.97,"body":"still always mindful about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3359.97,"endTime":3363.21,"body":"actually, this isn't good for my"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3359.97,"endTime":3363.21,"body":"health, but I enjoy it. Because"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3363.21,"endTime":3366.48,"body":"it's, you know, social thing to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3363.21,"endTime":3366.48,"body":"do. And I do feel a bit relaxed"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3366.48,"endTime":3369.84,"body":"and have a drink, and so on. But"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3366.48,"endTime":3369.84,"body":"I guess ultimately, we want the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3369.84,"endTime":3373.77,"body":"understanding of the risk to be"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3369.84,"endTime":3373.77,"body":"one more people to have to be"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3373.77,"endTime":3377.64,"body":"able to factor in that risk."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3373.77,"endTime":3377.64,"body":"Albeit, it's so complicated, but"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3377.64,"endTime":3381.12,"body":"to have just a general sense of,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3377.64,"endTime":3381.12,"body":"well, I'm going to drink or I'm"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3381.12,"endTime":3383.4,"body":"going to drink for these"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3381.12,"endTime":3383.4,"body":"reasons. But I'm also going to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3383.4,"endTime":3386.76,"body":"factor in these reasons, even"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3383.4,"endTime":3386.76,"body":"though, you know, hopefully"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3386.76,"endTime":3389.85,"body":"won't keep me up at night"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3386.76,"endTime":3389.85,"body":"worrying if it's a fairly low"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3389.85,"endTime":3390.21,"body":"level."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3390.36,"endTime":3393.84,"body":"Yeah, it's super"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3390.36,"endTime":3393.84,"body":"complicated. I mean, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3393.84,"endTime":3397.08,"body":"almost feel like it's it because"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3393.84,"endTime":3397.08,"body":"of all the complexity, it's, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3397.08,"endTime":3400.38,"body":"know, it's just best"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3397.08,"endTime":3400.38,"body":"communicated to saying, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3400.38,"endTime":3403.29,"body":"know, if you generally stick"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3400.38,"endTime":3403.29,"body":"within the guidelines, then"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3403.29,"endTime":3405.63,"body":"you're unlikely to be doing"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3403.29,"endTime":3405.63,"body":"yourself significant amount of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3405.63,"endTime":3409.2,"body":"harm. And if you drink above the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3405.63,"endTime":3409.2,"body":"guidelines, then Congress comes"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3409.2,"endTime":3411.81,"body":"up, yeah, exactly. Your risk"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3409.2,"endTime":3411.81,"body":"increases, you're probably"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3412.56,"endTime":3415.41,"body":"you're not doing yourself much"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3412.56,"endTime":3415.41,"body":"good. And the further above the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3415.41,"endTime":3419.67,"body":"guidelines you are, the more"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3415.41,"endTime":3419.67,"body":"you're doing, but it does become"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3419.67,"endTime":3422.94,"body":"very difficult when you want to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3419.67,"endTime":3422.94,"body":"try and I understand that it's,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3423.0,"endTime":3426.45,"body":"it's good to try and give people"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3423.0,"endTime":3426.45,"body":"an understanding of what that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3426.45,"endTime":3430.02,"body":"means, right? So to say, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3426.45,"endTime":3430.02,"body":"know, if you're drinking 21"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3430.02,"endTime":3434.28,"body":"units a week, how's that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3430.02,"endTime":3434.28,"body":"different from 35 units a week"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3434.28,"endTime":3439.53,"body":"or 50 units a week. But it's,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3434.28,"endTime":3439.53,"body":"it's tricky to communicate all"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3439.53,"endTime":3439.98,"body":"of that."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3441.06,"endTime":3444.33,"body":"Hopefully, this"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3441.06,"endTime":3444.33,"body":"conversation has gone some way"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3444.33,"endTime":3449.52,"body":"to helping maybe interested"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3444.33,"endTime":3449.52,"body":"people, again, a little bit. And"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3449.64,"endTime":3452.49,"body":"you know, all that work, you've"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3449.64,"endTime":3452.49,"body":"done all that modelling was kind"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3452.49,"endTime":3455.97,"body":"of put into summary guidelines"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3452.49,"endTime":3455.97,"body":"and documents, I think you can"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3455.97,"endTime":3459.06,"body":"make sense of if you're"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3455.97,"endTime":3459.06,"body":"motivated enough to go and read"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3459.06,"endTime":3459.36,"body":"them."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3459.6,"endTime":3462.96,"body":"Yeah. So something that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3459.6,"endTime":3462.96,"body":"I think is potentially quite"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3462.96,"endTime":3466.53,"body":"useful and informative is that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3462.96,"endTime":3466.53,"body":"in the report that we wrote, We"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3466.53,"endTime":3469.71,"body":"put together a couple of tables"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3466.53,"endTime":3469.71,"body":"that said, you know, on one"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3469.71,"endTime":3473.4,"body":"side, we've got average drinking"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3469.71,"endTime":3473.4,"body":"level, and then across the top,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3473.4,"endTime":3476.46,"body":"we've got drinking patterns,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3473.4,"endTime":3476.46,"body":"right? How many days a week do"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3476.46,"endTime":3480.87,"body":"you spread that over, and then"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3476.46,"endTime":3480.87,"body":"in the boxes is sort of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3481.05,"endTime":3485.61,"body":"basically the proportion of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3481.05,"endTime":3485.61,"body":"deaths in people drinking at"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3485.61,"endTime":3488.76,"body":"that level that you would expect"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3485.61,"endTime":3488.76,"body":"to be caused by alcohol, right?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3488.76,"endTime":3493.41,"body":"So people who are drinking at 14"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3488.76,"endTime":3493.41,"body":"units a week, you know, if"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3493.41,"endTime":3496.02,"body":"they're, if they're having to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3493.41,"endTime":3496.02,"body":"drink three days, right, so"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3496.02,"endTime":3499.26,"body":"they're drinking 14 units spread"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3496.02,"endTime":3499.26,"body":"over five days, it's just over"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3499.26,"endTime":3503.34,"body":"1%, right? That's that for me,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3499.26,"endTime":3503.34,"body":"just over 1% for men is under"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3503.37,"endTime":3507.06,"body":"just under 1% for women, so and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3503.37,"endTime":3507.06,"body":"then you can see how there is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3507.06,"endTime":3510.15,"body":"changes. So if you're drinking"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3507.06,"endTime":3510.15,"body":"at 49 units a week, because"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3510.15,"endTime":3512.88,"body":"you're drinking really very"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3510.15,"endTime":3512.88,"body":"heavily, and you spread that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3512.88,"endTime":3518.7,"body":"over five days, then that goes"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3512.88,"endTime":3518.7,"body":"up to 15% for men and 23%. For"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3518.7,"endTime":3521.64,"body":"women, okay, so there's a, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3518.7,"endTime":3521.64,"body":"know, a pretty significant"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3521.64,"endTime":3524.97,"body":"chance that if you're drinking"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3521.64,"endTime":3524.97,"body":"at that level of alcohol, that's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3524.97,"endTime":3528.81,"body":"gonna kill you. So I think those"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3524.97,"endTime":3528.81,"body":"tables may be a quite might be,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3528.99,"endTime":3531.75,"body":"you know, a helpful way for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3528.99,"endTime":3531.75,"body":"people who are interested to be"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3531.75,"endTime":3536.01,"body":"able to assess, or to make more"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3531.75,"endTime":3536.01,"body":"informed choices, but that, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3536.01,"endTime":3538.83,"body":"know, that that relies on people"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3536.01,"endTime":3538.83,"body":"being interested enough to work"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3538.83,"endTime":3540.33,"body":"out and go and try and look it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3538.83,"endTime":3540.33,"body":"up."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3540.42,"endTime":3543.24,"body":"I think, yeah,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3540.42,"endTime":3543.24,"body":"some kind of simplified version"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3543.24,"endTime":3546.78,"body":"of those might be useful as a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3543.24,"endTime":3546.78,"body":"kind of health risk campaign,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3546.84,"endTime":3550.14,"body":"potentially. But you know, as I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3546.84,"endTime":3550.14,"body":"said to Tom, is lots of other"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3550.14,"endTime":3553.62,"body":"very difficult challenges,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3550.14,"endTime":3553.62,"body":"including people who tend to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3553.62,"endTime":3556.65,"body":"drink above the guidelines are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3553.62,"endTime":3556.65,"body":"more motivated to discount them"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3556.65,"endTime":3559.44,"body":"because maybe they're not at a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3556.65,"endTime":3559.44,"body":"stage where they're ready to,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3559.53,"endTime":3561.93,"body":"you know, think about their"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3559.53,"endTime":3561.93,"body":"alcohol use. And of course, many"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3561.93,"endTime":3564.69,"body":"people drink above the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3561.93,"endTime":3564.69,"body":"guidelines for reasons that are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3564.72,"endTime":3568.92,"body":"far from lack of understanding"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3564.72,"endTime":3568.92,"body":"of the awareness of the risk is,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3568.92,"endTime":3571.41,"body":"you know, because our lives are"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3568.92,"endTime":3571.41,"body":"difficult and challenging and"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3571.41,"endTime":3575.07,"body":"stressful law, we may have"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3571.41,"endTime":3575.07,"body":"developed codependency before a"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3575.1,"endTime":3578.55,"body":"whole multitude of reasons. So"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3575.1,"endTime":3578.55,"body":"yes, you know, what can we do to"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3578.55,"endTime":3582.6,"body":"basically communicate these risk"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3578.55,"endTime":3582.6,"body":"levels in ways that might reach"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3582.6,"endTime":3586.32,"body":"some people but acknowledging,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3582.6,"endTime":3586.32,"body":"you know, the whole complex set"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3586.32,"endTime":3588.96,"body":"of factors that exists beyond"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3586.32,"endTime":3588.96,"body":"the guidelines as well,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3589.08,"endTime":3592.17,"body":"I think it's, you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3589.08,"endTime":3592.17,"body":"it's also worth saying that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3592.2,"endTime":3595.02,"body":"we've got all this uncertainty"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3592.2,"endTime":3595.02,"body":"because risks are going to vary"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3595.02,"endTime":3597.87,"body":"lots between individuals, but"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3595.02,"endTime":3597.87,"body":"there's also a you know, a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3597.87,"endTime":3601.98,"body":"significant amount of scientific"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3597.87,"endTime":3601.98,"body":"uncertainty about the risks,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3601.98,"endTime":3605.43,"body":"right? We've, you know, we've"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3601.98,"endTime":3605.43,"body":"had a huge number of studies and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3605.43,"endTime":3609.09,"body":"people continue to do studies"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3605.43,"endTime":3609.09,"body":"looking at the risks of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3609.09,"endTime":3612.57,"body":"health risks associated with"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3609.09,"endTime":3612.57,"body":"drinking, but because, you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3612.57,"endTime":3615.33,"body":"running randomised control"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3612.57,"endTime":3615.33,"body":"trials, which would be the gold"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3615.33,"endTime":3618.51,"body":"standard in which you either"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3615.33,"endTime":3618.51,"body":"force people to drink a fixed"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3618.51,"endTime":3622.8,"body":"amounts, or no forced them not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3618.51,"endTime":3622.8,"body":"to drink at all, and then follow"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3622.8,"endTime":3626.37,"body":"them up for 20 years and see how"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3622.8,"endTime":3626.37,"body":"their health, you know, see if"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3626.37,"endTime":3628.26,"body":"there's any health differences"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3626.37,"endTime":3628.26,"body":"between the two groups. There's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3628.26,"endTime":3631.92,"body":"all sorts of, you know, moral"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3628.26,"endTime":3631.92,"body":"and logistical complications"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3631.92,"endTime":3634.8,"body":"about trying to try to do that."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3631.92,"endTime":3634.8,"body":"So we don't really have that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3634.8,"endTime":3638.1,"body":"sort of evidence. And we've got"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3634.8,"endTime":3638.1,"body":"to try and make do with look"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3638.1,"endTime":3640.74,"body":"slightly lower quality evidence,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3638.1,"endTime":3640.74,"body":"and that's why there's, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3640.74,"endTime":3643.68,"body":"know, there's still huge"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3640.74,"endTime":3643.68,"body":"uncertainty about whether or not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3643.74,"endTime":3648.66,"body":"drinking at low levels is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3643.74,"endTime":3648.66,"body":"protective or not. Right. And,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3648.66,"endTime":3651.54,"body":"you know, if you want to start a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3648.66,"endTime":3651.54,"body":"fight in a room full of alcohol,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3651.54,"endTime":3654.63,"body":"epidemiologists just express a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3651.54,"endTime":3654.63,"body":"strong opinion about whether"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3654.63,"endTime":3658.68,"body":"protective effects are real or"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3654.63,"endTime":3658.68,"body":"not. And, you know, chaos will"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3658.68,"endTime":3660.03,"body":"ensue, because I"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3660.03,"endTime":3662.55,"body":"thought they'd"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3660.03,"endTime":3662.55,"body":"kind of consensus was forming"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3662.55,"endTime":3665.25,"body":"around, you know, particularly"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3662.55,"endTime":3665.25,"body":"in light of the recent more"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3665.25,"endTime":3668.13,"body":"recent studies based on, you"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3665.25,"endTime":3668.13,"body":"know, the kind of genetic"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3668.13,"endTime":3671.7,"body":"variants tending to point in the"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3668.13,"endTime":3671.7,"body":"direction that there aren't"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3671.7,"endTime":3675.63,"body":"likely health benefits is more"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3671.7,"endTime":3675.63,"body":"confounding factors, like"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3675.63,"endTime":3677.13,"body":"sequitur effects and so on."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3677.76,"endTime":3680.85,"body":"I mean, I guess I'm"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3677.76,"endTime":3680.85,"body":"still kind of a bit agnostic"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3680.85,"endTime":3684.93,"body":"about it. You know, that's that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3680.85,"endTime":3684.93,"body":"certainly is evidence that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3684.93,"endTime":3687.54,"body":"points in the direction that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3684.93,"endTime":3687.54,"body":"says they're not real. But you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3687.54,"endTime":3691.5,"body":"know, there's also limitations"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3687.54,"endTime":3691.5,"body":"in that approach as well. It's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3691.5,"endTime":3694.56,"body":"not, you know, that's still not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3691.5,"endTime":3694.56,"body":"a randomised control trial, it's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3694.56,"endTime":3697.95,"body":"still, you know, it's still just"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3694.56,"endTime":3697.95,"body":"a different imperfect way,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3697.98,"endTime":3700.83,"body":"albeit maybe slightly less"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3697.98,"endTime":3700.83,"body":"imperfect, then the other ways"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3700.83,"endTime":3701.97,"body":"that we have looking at it."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3702.12,"endTime":3704.04,"body":"The other thing"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3702.12,"endTime":3704.04,"body":"might be worth saying always is"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3704.04,"endTime":3706.59,"body":"that if you're looking for"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3704.04,"endTime":3706.59,"body":"health benefits, there's far"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3706.59,"endTime":3711.39,"body":"easier ways to accrue them then"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3706.59,"endTime":3711.39,"body":"taking up drinking low levels if"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3711.39,"endTime":3712.41,"body":"you don't drink already."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3712.8,"endTime":3716.52,"body":"Absolutely. And, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3712.8,"endTime":3716.52,"body":"know, I don't think there's any"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3716.7,"endTime":3720.15,"body":"anything in the evidence to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3716.7,"endTime":3720.15,"body":"suggest that if you're a non"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3720.15,"endTime":3722.76,"body":"drinker, you should take up"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3720.15,"endTime":3722.76,"body":"drinking because it'll improve"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3722.76,"endTime":3725.4,"body":"your health. I think that's, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3722.76,"endTime":3725.4,"body":"know, that's certainly not borne"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3725.4,"endTime":3726.24,"body":"out by the evidence."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3726.449,"endTime":3729.179,"body":"epidemiologists"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3726.449,"endTime":3729.179,"body":"would agree on that, presumably,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3729.209,"endTime":3732.899,"body":"yes. Well, thanks so much,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3729.209,"endTime":3732.899,"body":"Colleen. That's that's been"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3732.899,"endTime":3736.169,"body":"really, really useful. And we'll"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3732.899,"endTime":3736.169,"body":"we'll kind of watch this space,"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3736.169,"endTime":3739.049,"body":"I suppose, as the evidence"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3736.169,"endTime":3739.049,"body":"continues to emerge about"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3739.079,"endTime":3741.569,"body":"different levels of risks"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3739.079,"endTime":3741.569,"body":"amongst different drinkers at"},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3741.569,"endTime":3744.899,"body":"different stages and so on."},{"speaker":"James Morris","startTime":3741.569,"endTime":3744.899,"body":"Alright, thanks, James."}]}