Ep 45: Zinnia TV - Driving Value Creation Through a Better Dementia Care Experience

Welcome!  Upside/Downside is a podcast about value creation and inspiration for business leaders to grow profits and cash flow.  I'm your host, Matt Cooley.  

Bill Uniowski, CEO and Co-Founder of Zinnia TV, joins me to discuss the business through a value creation lens and how that drives the ability to help more people as society continues to age.  Zinnia's therapeutic TV for people with dementia and their caregivers is designed to reduce agitation and increase connection.  This combination benefits the care recipient and caregiver simultaneously, and is the engine driving value for Zinnia.

What were the two key inflection points for Zinnia that set their business on a growth trajectory? What role does data-driven evidence play?  How do you manage churn in a business like this?  Hint: it's a bit different.  What role are AI and personalization going to play in the future for Zinnia?  These are just a few of the topics covered in this episode.  Listen in and get inspired with us!

Thank you for listening and please visit Upside/Downside podcast and enter your email for my FREE list: "10 places to look for higher profits and cash flow right now!".

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:02

Welcome back, everyone. This is Matt Cooley, host of Upside Downside, where we explore value creation and how the actions we take in business drive profits and cash flow and affect everyday people. Imagine you're a direct caregiver to a loved one with dementia, where just getting through the day for both of you can sometimes be really tough. You need something that reduces their agitation, reminds them to do basic self-care activities, and to keep them occupied and hopefully happy so you can take a an occasional break. This is a scenario many people may not have directly experienced, but is becoming much more common as society ages. Joining me today is Bill Unowski, co-founder and CEO of Zinnia TV, a provider of research-backed videos that reduce stress for people with dementia and their caregivers. I want to mention that Zinnia TV is a supplier to a startup my family owns called My Age Tech Lab. Bill is joining us to share their value creation story which I find so compelling because the users of Zinnia TV are some of the most vulnerable people in our lives. And how you drive profits and cash flow in a business like this directly impacts how many people you can help, quite frankly. So really looking forward to this discussion and welcome, Bill. Thank you so much for having me, Matt. This is great. I'm excited. Pleasure is mine, sir. Thank you. How did you become involved with Zinnia TV and how does it work? Sure. So the

SPEAKER_01: 1:31

story of Zinnia is sort of two stories. One, it is the story of my co-founder, Allison, who became a family caregiver to her husband, Evan, who was diagnosed with frontotemporal dementia at the age of 47. She was caring for growing kids and making managing, you know, doing the best she could for Evan. And, you know, her response to this was to throw herself into dementia-related research, dementia-related education. She got certified. She kind of pivoted her career to teaching in a variety of ways in the state of Washington in long-term care communities and also with the University of Washington's Memory and Brain Wellness Center, educating primary care clinicians. So she kind She morphed this background based on her experience. And while she was caring for Evan, she realized that the burden that falls upon dementia family caregivers, which all caregivers have a lot of stress and things that are going on in their lives as they try to manage. And dementia is one of the harder areas to care for. So she saw that firsthand. And then when Evan lived in the community, she would visit him and find him watching things on TV that he never would have chosen to watch. and it didn't resonate with him. And it led to things like aggression and boredom and agitation. And he just thought there's gotta be a better way. So that's sort of the crux behind thinking about Zinnia and her idea for the company and product itself. Now, the other side of it is, how did we become a company? How did we come together? It's really a happy accident. There were four co-founders initially who really didn't have much connection to one another other than Allison reaching out to someone who worked at Apple and worked on the tool that creates pictures, creates videos from your pictures automatically. And that's what she was using with Evan to sit with him and engage with him and find something to do and pass the time meaningfully, hopefully joyfully by connecting to his interests and things that he liked. And so So when she was doing that, she realized this is something good. How do I learn more about this and figure it out? So she reached out to someone she knew at Apple who connected her with someone who was a designer on that Apple Memories product. So he started talking to her. And then his partner is a visual artist. And he thought, hey, maybe we can get her involved. And then I was working with him at a startup in Chicago focused on, of all things, NBA play diagramming and scouting software. And he said, Bill, let me tell you about this. thing, this woman who called me and like, I'd like to help her. Do you want to help? So, you know, we came together and that was in early 2019. And we did this on the side as a passion project for a while. You know, you talk about, you know, we, we, we definitely take a non-traditional route to, you know, value creation and profit and loss and everything. That's the topic of this podcast because we did it on the side as a passion project, you know, unlike regular startups is a normal kind of stereotype. typical startups that move fast, break things, you know, go, go, go, raise money. All those keywords. Yeah, exactly. positive stories and outcomes and just making a difference and helping people. And so that helped drive us forward during times of slowness and things like that. And the real kind of inflection point for us was Two things. One, we got some non-dilutive funding from a family foundation in Canada to do research at the university of British Columbia and Vancouver general hospital. So then we thought, okay, great. You know, people see these videos, they like them, but especially in more of the business to business or clinical side, they want to know, does this really work? And so we need to have some validation behind it. So, so that was sort of a big inflection point and a vote of confidence for us as a company. And then. we were accepted into a tech accelerator that was focused on longevity companies. And that was the Techstars Future of Longevity program. And that really whipped us into shape and kind of, you know, put us at a crossroads. And the question was at the end of that, is this something that we're willing to devote full time to this? Or is this going to stay, you know, happy side project? And, you know, we made the call at that stage to move forward and try to make this happen. And And that was, you know, that was a big moment. And, you know, great things have happened since then. But, you know, it's building a community. And so not everything works to your direction. Sure. I love that evolution. Yeah. Go ahead. There's just, you know, this came together over time through a lot of different things. And it's a nontraditional journey.

SPEAKER_00: 7:03

Yeah. And I love that evolution, starting with Allison noticing what Evan was watching and said, hey, that's not really meeting his needs. And then the happy accidents of the co-founders and just how it more from there. That's a very cool evolution. And it's funny how life works out like that, huh? Super interesting. So what is the role specifically of data in Zinnia's value creation journey? And it's great, the funding helped you guys produce evidence-based approach that you can use in your marketing and stuff. But what is the role of data in your value creation journey. And how do you use that to differentiate versus just customers finding cat videos or something on YouTube, which I know you've been asked before. And I think I've probably asked you that as well. Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 7:54

So, you know, data is so, so important because if you or I, or someone who's unfamiliar with dementia were to go on to Zinnia and start watching some videos, what they would see are slow moving, gently paced videos on a They're short and digestible, probably about on average eight to 12 minutes long, highly, highly visual, no dialogue for many of them, but beautiful visuals, but slow moving. We stay on the baby's face for longer than you or I want to watch it. But for someone with dementia who processes the world more slowly, this enables them to digest and engage with what they're watching. So from the outside looking in, people say, oh, this is simple. Why couldn't I just watch a YouTube video or things like that? And so we knew to counteract that, it would be very, very important to substantiate what we're doing with data. And the research that we did in Canada resulted in six published papers and peer-reviewed journals that evidenced the fact that Zinnia could be effective in a variety of ways. They tested both in long-term care communities, they tested in hospitals, and they kind of came out with the conclusion that Zinnia is effective in helping to reduce agitation and redirect someone. Agitation is a very common and difficult behavioral symptom of dementia, of many dementias, which is stressful for caregivers. So if you can calm people down, especially without resorting to antipsychotic medications or things like that that are overall negative for that person's health, that's a good thing. Can you help manage activities of daily living and help to model, prompt, or cue behaviors like drinking water or using the bathroom or going to bed or getting dressed, things that people with dementia sometimes are hesitant or reluctant to do. So those were two. And then the rest of them really involved connection. You know, dementia is very isolating. And so we always strive to help create connection and engagement and moments of joy between the caregiver and the person and the care recipient, the person they're caring for. So these videos, when used appropriately, can help people connect to themselves and reminisce. You can watch a video of places that you visited or hobbies that you had or sports that you participated in. You can connect with your caregiver by watching something and creating a conversation and talking about shared experiences. Or in long-term care, you can even connect to other residents by watching something together and enjoying that activity or using it as an opportunity to talk back and forth. So all of these things have been substantiated. We continue to do more research in various places. We're in a VA hospital working with in Durham, North Carolina, looking at delirium and how this could help offset post-operative delirium. And all of these things are just, again, ways to validate the fact that something that from the outside looks so seemingly simple is effective and it's effective in important

SPEAKER_00: 11:10

ways. Oh, that's wonderful. And then you build it into your value creation stream right from the get-go. So you're selling to caregivers, either family caregivers directly or companies versus selling obviously directly to the care recipient. So someone has to buy on behalf of that care recipient. That's a pretty common model in segments of the age tech space, as we know. How does that drive the impact to cashflow and profits versus a business that sells directly to end users?

SPEAKER_01: 11:42

Just curious. Sure. So we almost see the caregiver as our end user and a tool that we're equipping them with to be a better caregiver, to help manage their stress, help to give them respite. We obviously are always thinking jointly of the care recipient and the caregiver. And in an ideal world, they're watching this together. especially as dementia progresses, the caregiver themselves is the one who's driving the app, who's choosing what to watch, who's putting things on. So there's a blurred line between who is the end user. At the end of the day, the videos themselves are really for the person with dementia and it's been designed for them. When I think about how this relates to kind of value creation, If we're doing our job and we are equipping caregivers with tools that make their life better, that help make life better for the person living with dementia, then revenues and profits and value kind of will come out of that. Most, you know, many, many, many of our users hear about us through word of mouth. So that's, you know, in any business that is. That's great. One of the best ways to drive adoption, but especially in a world where caregivers, you know, see the caregivers want to help other caregivers. If they find something that works for them, they want to share it because they're like, this is super helpful for me. It's calmed me down. It's, it's made life easier. You got to try this. You know, they're, they're selfless people who, you know, are very generous in, in sharing things that work for them. And because they're always looking for, for new things and ways to make life easier. So there is a lot, you know, through that, that we think about and, You know, we also, you know, some of the, we also sell direct to consumer through to caregivers on a B2C basis, and then also through a B2B basis through to senior living communities or, you know, other companies that provide content to our audience. And so, you know, we feel like, you know, we've built this IP, which is our content, that we have built a trusted brand around that's, you know, really important, especially in this world. And so we're trying to use this content through whatever channels we can to drive value.

SPEAKER_00: 14:17

Excellent. Wow. Okay. So as you mentioned earlier, dementia can go through different stages. And that progression obviously can differ by person. And we have some experience with this in our family as well. How do you mitigate the impacts of churn? And how long does this solution last for the typical end user? I'm just curious. And churn has got to be something that you deal with. Any comments on that? Sure.

SPEAKER_01: 14:48

So we get asked all the time, what is the right stage? What stage of dementia is Zinnia built for? And we originally thought, you know, our hypothesis was it's mid to late stage. So if you have dementia or you're a caregiver to someone who has dementia and they are happy watching an old movie they love, you know, The Wizard of Oz or, you know, even Alison's husband loved Lord of the Rings. And, you know, you can think, oh, wow, that can be kind of fast and violent and things like that. But, you know, it's a familiarity that gives someone comfort. They see this, they know it, they like it. They might not understand what it is anymore, but they get something out of it. I went to a community that was watching Johnny Carson reruns. That must have been fun. Well, you know, I don't think that they understood the jokes, but they were used to his voice and seeing him up there and the cadence of his speech. And that brought them somewhere of comfort. So perfectly good to watch something like that. So we kind of thought mid to late stage when you can no longer watch things that make sense to you and maybe it's difficult and upsetting or frustrating and news, you can't tell fact from fiction or track plots, then Zinnia is a good time to watch. We've since learned, though, that there are people with mild cognitive impairment who sometimes purchase Zinnia themselves. Mm-hmm. Again, you know, predominantly it's mid to late stage. And, you know, to move towards your churn question, obviously, you know, dementia is a terminal disease and at one point it will end for people. And oftentimes that's when we receive churn. We'll get an email from someone telling us that their loved one has passed and, you know, to please cancel the subscription. And, you know, they'll often accompany that with kind remarks about how this was helpful for them and they enjoyed it. And it helped them to connect with their loved one. So, you know, unlike a normal company where they, you know, they regret churn, this is just a natural part of our business. You know, people might move to a senior living community and cancel because they no longer have it at home. But the perk of that is oftentimes, too, we hear from communities on the B2B side who tell us that a family used this at home and they want us to look into it for their loved one or for our community. And they suggest And it looks like a good idea. So, you know, we, so we use some of our churn to, you know, get testimonials, like, I hope it was helpful for your loved one before they passed, you know, let us know, you know, feel free to share stories. And so we'll get stories back.

SPEAKER_00: 18:03

Wow. I mean, that's fascinating and how there's a real life cycle to it. That's, that is well beyond your original hypothesis. Yes. Even if mid to late is the, still the current sort of bread and butter, if you will. In my words, you know, it's expanded in terms of, you know, the adjacent users. That's pretty cool. Are there any personal lessons or stories that you can share about your time as Zinnia's CEO that, you know, that you found particularly interesting?

UNKNOWN: 18:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 18:35

There, there are, there are many, you know, there's a, I've never gone through, I've been part of startups before, but I've never been a founder and I've never been anywhere on day zero and, and grown it over time. And so there are so many kind of ups and downs from the journey that, that have occurred that have been just amazing and frustrating and, you know, and it's an ongoing thing. But what always kind of pushes us through as a team, and I kind of alluded to this earlier, or some of these stories that come back that are truly heartwarming. Some texts that I'll get from communities with pictures and videos of people watching it that really just are heartwarming. And it's, you know, starting a startup in any way, shape, or form is a real leap of faith. And, you know, it's not just a professional thing. It's also a personal thing. And when you pair that with a subject that is so sensitive and everything is dementia. It's just been a really amazing experience. I've done, my career is kind of conventional. I started out in finance. I did some stuff in media, always big, things like that. And I just feel like this is sort of, it's an evolution into the next stage of what I'm doing. And it's just, if you haven't gone through it, it's hard to explain. And I hope I'm not like kind of rambling

SPEAKER_00: 20:11

on. Well, we certainly hear, you know, folks that are working in startups and in, you know, I'll say age tech, right? You know, that's, it really brings you close to helping people and really seeing the impact where, you know, as a finance guy in a media company, you know, my day job at a tech company, you don't necessarily see the impact directly at the end user. So the fact that you're getting those texts and videos from users and that direct feedback must be huge.

SPEAKER_01: 20:42

Yeah. And then, you know, you bring up, you know, the age tech community overall. That's another unique aspect, I think, because there are many of us who have come to this, you know, through a sense of like wanting to create something, create value and succeed, but also to do good for others at the same time. And it's a small community. It's growing, but everybody's kind of got a different solution. And most of them are non-competitive. And so what you find is a real collaborative community that comes together and is really supportive and helpful to one another. And there's a lot of great organizations like the Age Tech Collaborative from AARP that help to cultivate that and bring these groups together. And, you know, that's another thing in the lonely journey of a startup to have support. Right. Yeah. really, really positive.

SPEAKER_00: 21:36

Yeah, let's hope those dynamics last as long as possible. Bill, where do you see Zinnia three years from now? What are your hopes and dreams three years out?

SPEAKER_01: 21:47

Well, my greatest hope is that... you know, we can continue to make a positive impact on people. And that will help drive us to being a profitable company that will allow us to continue to build and grow and do these things. You know, we obviously, you know, this isn't the most lucrative vertical in the world, but it's growing and it's positive. And we coming from a bootstrapped company, we have always stayed lean and tried to just keep things moving. And so, you know, in three years, I want to be solidly, you know, cashflow positive and profitable. I want to be leveraging AI to create more content. We're already dabbling in that now with some different formats of quizzes and a this day in history sort of daily event video that really kind of fits well with senior living and activity directors. You know, but I think to increase our effectiveness and help people, you know, we need to just have more content and be able to personalize that. You the big tenet of dementia care is person-centered care, aligning with where that person is on their journey, where they are, what they can do, and focusing on that more than what they can't do or understand, and connecting with their past, their interests, and things like that. And so if we can understand about the person and make sure that they get content that reflects that in a more personalized fashion, that would be an objective as well going forward. It's always been objective, but now technology is allowing companies that are like ours, like a smaller company that might be not super well capitalized to leverage on that.

SPEAKER_00: 23:29

Yeah. The economics of AI are changing dramatically. Listen, this has been a real eye opener today and I really appreciate it and super interesting. And I know, I know listeners are going to love hearing this story. I want to say thanks for sharing your value creation insights today in such an important business and the important work that you do.

SPEAKER_01: 23:48

Thanks so much, Matt. I enjoyed our conversation. And you know, so many of these conversations are focused on caregiving and dementia and things like that. And to kind of put a little bit of a business lens on it and think about it through value creation is is a great way to have a conversation.

SPEAKER_00: 24:02

And I appreciate that. And that's how we expand this space and help more people. So that's, that's super important. Thank you to the listeners of upside downside as well. Please visit us on upside downside podcast.com. We're in return for your email address, you'll receive my latest list of 10 places to look for high profits and cash flow right now. All right. Thanks for joining us today and see you next time.