Welcome on board! Let's go on a metaphorical flight from the turbulence of prediction to the friendly skies of perception, recounting every foresight practitioner’s most agonizing journey - the screening process of organizational professionals who demand that we pack a crystal ball. Join us in the airport lounge of podcasts where you’ll be upgraded to a status beyond traditional forecasting, organizational bets and incremental innovation (those are the cheap seats).
Welcome on board! Let's go on a metaphorical flight from the turbulence of prediction to the friendly skies of perception, recounting every foresight practitioner’s most agonizing journey - the screening process of organizational professionals who demand that we pack a crystal ball. Join us in the airport lounge of podcasts where you’ll be upgraded to a status beyond traditional forecasting, organizational bets and incremental innovation (those are the cheap seats).
Frank Spencer: Hey, how are you? Excuse me. How are you?
Yvette Montero Salvatico: Uh, I'm-I'm fine.
Frank: Yeah. I-I mean, as you can see, we're the only two people on the plane right now so you got global service too.
Yvette: Yeah. Somehow I've been able to maintain it during a pandemic which is quite miraculous.
Frank: I had to pay extra for it.
Yvette: Mm-hmm.
Frank: So, yeah.
Yvette: I see.
Frank: I mean, I was just wanting to make some conversation, you know, nobody's on the plane yet, but I can tell you--
Yvette: Yeah, I-I think I may have lost my social skills during the last two years, but, uh, sure. Uh, how are- how are you?
Frank: I-I think the other people still trying to board members have lost their social skills as well because they're not making on the plane very well, but--
Yvette: It's-it's fine
Frank: Yeah, no, I, you know, just small talk. I mean, what do you do for a living?
Yvette: Um--
Frank: Oh, you've got the Starbucks before you got on. That's it?
Yvette: I did- I did.
Frank: I missed it.
Yvette: Uh, yeah.
Frank: It's a shame.
Yvette: Uh, what do I do for a living? Um, I guess I have one of two choices here. I can either tell you that I'm a futurist and looks like we'll continue the conversation, or I could tell you that I'm a salesperson. All right. I'll bite the bullet, he's not gonna stop talking to me. I'm a futurist.
Frank: A futurist. A-a-a futurist? I've never heard of it before. Um, wow. What a- what a crazy job title. I mean--
Yvette: So crazy.
Frank: What do you- what do you have, like a crystal ball that you look into?
Yvette: Yeah, and taro cards.
Frank: Really?
Yvette: Yep.
Frank: Did you bring it with you on the plane? I-I would love to see the crystal ball.
Yvette: No, of course, not. I had to check it because it's more than three ounces.
Frank: Okay. You're also a comedian, apparently.
Yvette: In my spare time.
Frank: I see. Now maybe-maybe this woman's a little crazy. Maybe I shouldn't talk to her.
[laughter]
Yvette: Maybe you shouldn't talk to strangers is the thing.
Frank: All right. Well, welcome on-on board, the plane. You have lots of seats that you can sit in. Well, it's gone now, so.
Yvette: [laughs] Welcome to The Wicked Opportunities Podcast. We've obviously reached that point in the pandemic where the skits are becoming more and more involved, and if you weren't watching along, there is a video that goes along with this podcast. And, uh, if you wanna see our incredible green screen techniques, you need to check it out. My name is Yvette Montero Salvatico.
Frank: And my name is Cecil B. DeMille. No, Frank Spencer.
[laughter]
But, um, I was trying to think of some famous director and for some reason, I'd read somebody up from--
Yvette: Cecil DeMille?
[laughter]
Frank: Yeah. He-he directed The Ten Commandments which at one time was the only videotape I even had. So every night-
Yvette: That is--
Frank: -I watched the [crosstalk]
Yvette: That should have been the skit-that should have been in skit instead of the crystal ball.
Frank: Yeah. It's not that I, you know, the movie's okay, but it was the only thing I owned and I had VCR. Do you guys know what a VCR is? [laughs]
Yvette: Do you know what a VCR is?
Frank: Um, yeah. So my name is Frank Spencer, welcome to The Wicked Opportunities Podcast. And as you can tell, we're talking today about the crystal ball.
Yvette: Yes. The name of this podcast is did you pack your crystal ball? This is our semi-regularly scheduled [laughs] podcast that we aim to do weekly that we fail miserably.
Frank: I would say I promise that this is going to be more regular now because a podcast is supposed to be regular.
Yvette: Yes.
Frank: But me making any promises during this moment in time--
Yvette: This season of our lives.
Frank: No, it's not gonna--
Yvette: It's probably not the best idea.
Frank: There's-there's a lot going on. We're-we're planning for 2024 at the moment so-
Yvette: We are.
Frank: -there's a lot going on.
Yvette: We are.
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: Yeah. So, uh, so this year in The Wicked Opportunities Podcast, we have attempted to come to you weekly. And, uh, as we've always done with The Wicked Opportunities Podcast, we're always looking at the challenge of our complex environment and trying to find a way to update our operating system and our mindsets to see that increasing complexity not as a foe, but as a friend. And in this year, in particular, we are tackling the wicked problem of Foresight integration. How do we make Foresight operating system, and, uh, what are some of the hurdles that we have experienced as practitioners-
Frank: Mm-hmm.
Yvette: -as consultants, really, as students of the field because I still consider myself a student, a Foresight, a student of the futures field, I think that any good futures should continue to learn. Um, and so we try to bring to this venue sort of an unplugged, unedited real-life look at how we have overcome some of those issues. We spill the tea as we like to say at The Wicked Opportunities Podcast. And we get to be a little bit more ourselves and, um, give you a bit of behind the scenes so that you can learn from our experiences in the real world looking to implement Foresight within organizational, institutional, societal context that let's-let's face it, they're still using old operating models. So-
Frank: Oh yeah.
Yvette: -it can be really, really challenging.
Frank: You know, you said that, um, on-on this podcast we get to be more of ourselves-
Yvette: Mm-hmm.
Frank: -but we have talked about doing some behind a paywall that we're--
Yvette: Even more raunchy?
Frank: Yeah-yeah. [chuckles] What is it, NSFW? Not suitable for work? Um--
Yvette: Are you saying that we're gonna start an-only friends?
[laughter]
Frank: Only-friends which is not exa-- you know, but yeah, that actually is good that you said only friends so that we don't-don't say what the real name of it is. Don't say- don't say it.
Yvette: Only friends of Foresight.
Frank: Yeah. Only friends of Foresight, um--
Yvette: Wink wink.
Frank: Oh, that could be really interesting. Like we start the platform only friends of Foresight.
[laughter]
And then all of you futurists, you know, you have your own page-
Yvette: Mm-hmm.
Frank: -and it's like 599 a month.
Yvette: You know- you know.
[laughter]
Frank: Right. Um, it's like, whoa, the future is naked to, which it is- which it is. [laughs]
Yvette: It is. Na-- the naked futurist.
Frank: The naked future?
Yvette: The naked cowboy in New York Times. This is really- and Ashley's gonna really like this podcast.
Frank: Yeah-yeah.
Yvette: 'Cause there's downhill really for it.
Frank: [crosstalk] I mean, it's just like it fell right off a cliff and you didn't even know you were near a cliff.
Yvette: It did- it did. Well, it was the whole trying to green screen is what it was. That's what set us up.
Frank: Yeah, exactly. No, I mean, but obviously, we are, you know, sharing more of the secrets, so to speak, and I think this particular week we're sharing something that everybody who's ever done any moment of work in the futures field can probably relate to, but I still think there's a lot of helpful information here in how we have even recently had, uh, people say to us basically where's your crystal ball.
Yvette: Yeah. I mean, and so the-the, uh, obviously the skit is always as it always is very tongue in cheek, but always based on reality.
Frank: That's right.
Yvette: Um, and uh, you know, this idea that, uh, number one, people liken or think that the Foresight field is about prediction and they think that we have some magical crystal ball to get to those predictions. And we're fond of saying that not only do we not have a crystal ball, if we did have a crystal ball, it would be of no use to you. Uh, so we'll talk a little bit about where this desire, [chuckles] this-this like core desire that people have for prediction comes from and why obviously we don't try to predict in strategic Foresight or as futurists, and how you can maybe overcome that very common, uh, hurdle or misconception that the Foresight field is about prediction.
Frank: Yeah. I mean, there was so much there I paused for a moment 'cause I was like, which direction-
Yvette: Mm-hmm.
Frank: -do I-- what-- which one of these things do I even wanna say?
Yvette: Yeah, we could do a six-part series on this one topic, really.
Frank: Yeah, exactly. Um, but I mentioned a moment ago that we were in a recent conversation with someone who was saying, "I really want to, uh, you know, engage your firm."
Yvette: Right.
Frank: And, um, let's have that, you know, initial call. [chuckles]
Yvette: I mean, who doesn't love a good intake call?
Frank: Oh.
Yvette: That discovery phase. Am I right? It's so much fun.
Frank: So dear to my heart, it's just the most wonderful thing.
Yvette: It's only-- it's second only to the proposal phase.
Frank: Yeah, 'cause it-- [crosstalk]
Yvette: And followed shortly- followed shortly by the ghosting phase.
Frank: The ghosting phase is the best phase of all.
Yvette: Is the best phase of all.
Frank: Best phase of all.
Yvette: It's so awesome.
Frank: Hey, you said that we're getting ready to send the contract and it's like [imitates sound]. It's a--
Yvette: I wish I had a- I wish I had a cricket. We're gonna have to add a cricket here.
Frank: Yea. I used to do a good-- my sister said I did a good cricket.
Yvette: Well, wouldn't you go?
[chirps]
Not-not terrible. Not terrible.
Frank: I'm not saying it's-it's gonna win an Amy or anything.
Yvette: No, no, no. It's good. It's good.
Frank: So this particular client, um--
Yvette: Well, prospect.
Frank: Thank you for correcting me.
[laughter]
That's right.
Yvette: Because, well, let's be clear.
Frank: Gone.
Yvette: Wooh.
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: This is the sound for the ghost.
[laughter]
Wooh, called Scooby and the kids.
Frank: Yeah. If it weren't for you mailing Foresight practitioners, we would've done--
Yvette: I would've gotten away with ghosting you.
Frank: That's right. So, um, yeah, this prospect, um, I might have talked for about 30 minutes, you know, I said, look, I'm, you know-
Yvette: I could hear you from outside the studio.
Frank: -interrupt me at any moment.
Yvette: [laughs] You were going strong.
Frank: I was- I was trying because I saw the looks on their face, it was video as well.
Yvette: I can tell how-- what the-they were asking you that they were like, you're a forecaster, right?
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: I mean, that's what people think. Right? They think that futurists-
Yvette: That's right.
Yvette: -are forecasters and that's why they--
Frank: And you hear a say all the time, it's like, that's why we don't really like the word forecasting and I get it. You know, I've had people right back and say don't be nitpicky. And some people need to hear forecasters is what they're used to, but I'm trying to train people away from that.
Yvette: Yeah. I-I-I mean, of course, I agree with you. That's why we're business partners. We agree on most things, but like I think that if I-I believe in building a bridge--
Frank: Sure. [crosstalk]
Yvette: 100%.
Frank: Absolutely.
Yvette: The problem is if you build a bridge to the wrong town-
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: -then-then you're gonna-- it's gonna be a problem from the beginning. Like the bridges aren't gonna connect.
Frank: How do we get here, bridge too far is being shelled.
Yvette: Because it's not for, I mean, forecasting is a thing, it's-it's something that exists-
Frank: That's right.
Yvette: -and it uses the past to extrapolate the future in a linear path-
Frank: That's right- that's right.
Yvette: -and it's effective for about three hours right now.
Frank: And it's a good way to tell people. It's like, "Hey, that's interesting. You said forecasting because I can explain to you what forecasting is and why it's not Foresight and what Foresight is based on that." So it's a good way to train people away from that.
Yvette: Yeah. So he didn't like, come out and say, "You're a forecaster." He- but-but his line of questioning was, and he wouldn't like go even though you kept sort of coming at it, so.
Frank: Yeah, he just said, "So how-how are you gonna know that you're right?" So-so explain to me how do you know you're right because all he could hear me saying was I am going to predict your future and he was like, but how do you-- how through all that work you just explained, you said something about trend hunting and pattern making and-and potentially scenario developmental, but how-- which scenario is gonna be right. How do you know you're leading me to the right path? Even though I had already explained for 30 straight minutes--
Yvette: Mm-hmm.
Frank: -but he couldn't hear me.
Yvette: Yeah. How do you know you're right? I mean, that we could have- we could have named the podcast that, how do you know your right?
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: And there's so much in that phrase. Um, there's so much fear there's so much risk aversion.
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: Um, there's so much misinformation. There's so much of the current, uh, so, uh, structures that are in place and systems that are in place.
Frank: That's right.
Yvette: Um, I mean, he is working under a system and he's, uh, long time tenure in this organization.
Frank: Yeah. 20 plus years, right?
Yvette: Yeah. He's leading the R&D function, which is problematic, in my opinion, the way that he sort of-sort of--
Frank: Can we just pause for a moment? Let-let the audience just take that one in?
Yvette: R&D.
Frank: I'm leading the innovation division. How do you know when you're gonna be-- I mean-- I just-just so much, but you-you tell me what's wrong with that.
Yvette: It's the idea that you are placing bets.
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: And that, you know, the future is singular and that we have to-- it's back to that, you know, we have to gather all of the data, and then when we're certain we'll move forward, it's sad that someone sitting in a position of such privilege could not accept the fact that his organization and him leading that role is actually creating the future and he couldn't stop to think what future do we wanna create a future that's more equitable.
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: Perhaps.
Frank: Yep.
Yvette: But instead he was like, tell me what future's gonna reveal itself so I can make sure I place my investments in the right place and I win and I'm successful and I'm the hero.
Frank: That's right. Yeah, and actually, just to be completely honest, this individual was tasked to try to create as many startup ideas as possible and then, you know, throw a hundred of them out there.
Yvette: All the more reason to use Foresight, like--
Frank: Exactly.
Yvette: I mean all the more reason.
Frank: Yeah. And then just to see which ones might, you know, pan out, but that's- you're exactly right. If you think of it a different way, if you're using Foresight correctly, you would be really thinking about, oh, what's trying to emerge and-and-and, uh, what really has legs. Um, and-and that's not through prediction, that doesn't happen through prediction.
Yvette: Yeah, and what are the societal values that are shifting?
Frank: That's right. That's right.
Yvette: And not only that, but like how about the aspirational side of it? Like, what future do we want to create?
Frank: That's right.
Yvette: This idea that we don't have any agency, like we're not in the driver's seat at all.
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: It's some mystical thing that's gonna happen and nobody knows, except the people that run the Excel spreadsheets.
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: So the only ones that know the future that's gonna reveal itself and-and-and their models are all based on the past.
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: So guess what? The same people that are in power and have been in power will continue to be in power because that's the future that we are creating by our actions.
Frank: Yeah. Well, I'm gonna lead us down a side path here for a moment.
Yvette: Let's do it.
Frank: And, um, you didn't know that we were gonna talk about this at all, but it just--
Yvette: Why don't we- why don't we do the whole script and the storyboarding and the conversations so that we can just--
Frank: I don't know.
Yvette: I like it.
Frank: I've always wondered why, but.
Yvette: Because I want to do it and I want to stick to it.
Frank: No, it's necessary but-- and-and--
Yvette: But it's also necessary to ignore it.
Frank: It's gonna help us gonna get back on the path- back on the path in a minute beause I'm taking this off the path-
Yvette: Let's go off.
Frank: -and, uh, and I'll be brief about it. Um, you know what, one of the biggest mysteries of modern times is to me actually, and I don't think anybody really thinks about it this way, but it's because we're in Foresight that the mystery is flipped on its head because I think that most people would probably think, "Oh, it's a great mystery about the future and thinking about the future and Foresight and all," but the bigger mystery to me is how did we get on this stuck in this short-termism, linearity, um, corporate environment that says, I have an antibody against the future. How did we get here when that's not the way that the rest of the universe works?
Yvette: Hmm.
Frank: And then you literally have people. We had somebody say to us this past week, I-I wrap this up a lot faster than I thought I was gonna be able to. Somebody said to us this past week, "Oh, you're doing these transformations of natural Foresight retreat. I would love to go, except for one thing, I hate the word transformations."
Yvette: You're not gonna go there. [laughs]
Frank: And, um, I-I just thought it was brilliant because, uh, you know, Ashley, uh, Bowers, who is a part of the TFS team, um, was able to respond with this amazing thing about like, um, I think this person might have said something like, you know, what are transforms, humans don't.
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: Which is just-- I-I think a lot of people might think that-
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: -but she responded, "Well, you know, you're made of water and, you know, you're part of the universe," and that the siloing disconnection is crazy.
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: So the reason I went down that path is because it's so weird that we're in this environment that is so unnatural and we've made so many systems so unnatural and-and it's actually quite a mystery how we got stuck here. Um, because it just makes zero sense and you can see how destructive it is to politics and to, you know, economics and to society and to technology and all of this and, um, and of course, that puts us in a prediction place, but it's just so unnatural prediction is so unnatural.
Yvette: Mm-hmm.
Frank: It's just so unnatural and so, um, you know, it just fascinates me that, um, this idea that you were talking about a minute ago of agency-
Yvette: Mm-hmm.
Frank: -versus control and, um, the agency not being, I want to control something, but really being empowered to co-create healthy emergence. And what I mean by healthy emergence is I know emergence is, you know, things are-are complex and then something comes out of it that we might not have expected, but I think it's Foresight professionals. It's really our job to prepare people, to see that if we flow with the environment, as you spoke about the-the values that are shifting and the things that want to emerge, then we have this ability to perceive better and that perception allows us to co-create unearthed possibilities and unique novel transformations instead of like, oh, how can we make the cell phones, uh, a half an inch larger-
Yvette: Mm-hmm.
Frank: -and how can I make it a different color? And when they talk about R&D and, um, those kinds of things are really trying to hedge bets on, uh, what people will buy or produce that's closely related to what they know now instead of really transforming systems. And, um, and-and so speaking to this gentleman, um, I was really trying to get him to see the most amazing things are gonna come up if you use Foresight and I-- he couldn't hear me cause he wanted to hear the most relatable things are gonna come up when you use Foresight. Things that I already can relate to that are in my sphere-
Yvette: Mm.
Frank: -of influence and yet at the same time we speak on the other side of their mouth and say to me, I need to think of very provocative things- very provocative things because we cannot think in terms of a car being a car anymore, it needs to be in office and I have to think about, you know, uh, ways to interact with my vehicle. That would be only in a sci-fi level and then you go there and they're like, "I-I can't swallow that because how do you know- how do you know-
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: -that will be the next thing?"
Yvette: I-I think it also comes back to-
Frank: Pretty crazy.
Yvette: -you know, a fear of failure and again, wanting to be successful within a current- a current paradigm and a current success criteria and a fear of, you know, breaking free. I think-
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: -we've worked with clients for the last decade-plus where, when it comes time to implement, even after they've like done the-the great work-
Frank: Mm.
Yvette: -when it's time to implement some ideas, this is where they also have sort of a moment of sort of a come to Jesus moment.
Frank: That's right.
Yvette: With the Foresight stuff, because-
Frank: That's right.
Yvette: -it's like, but the way that we've traditionally measured stuff, this is not gonna necessarily, you know, hit those marks.
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: And so not only do you need to come up with these new provocative-
Frank: Mm.
Yvette: -ideas that don't necessarily stem from the past, uh, but you're gonna need new evaluation methods to see if they're successful so you were really- you were really up against it with this gentleman.
Frank: No, you're up against it. And-and, you know, it's interesting, you said that, right, because we had a-a big client recently that said you guys were hiring you to be provocative and, you know, we do a lot of kind of- all kinds of work, but I love it when a client says like, "You know, you have free reign."
Yvette: Mm-hmm.
Frank: I mean, that's sort of our classic, you know-
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: -back in the day you have free reign.
Yvette: Mm-hmm.
Frank: So I was super excited about this client. Oh my gosh. They want to, you know, build the next 50 years-
Yvette: Mm-hmm.
Frank: -and I know that it has to relate to what they're doing now and-
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: -of course, it's gonna be inside their DNA-
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: -but-but-but we have free reign, that's amazing. Um, and then when we presented to them the final piece, which they were a part of building. Um, they said to us, "But how would you- how would you measure any of that?" Which is what you were just saying.
Yvette: What's the ROI?
Frank: What's the ROI? And you're like, "Uh, yeah, you gotta build new metrics."
Yvette: Yeah, it has an ROI.
Frank: Actually, we showed you some of those new metrics and you were like, [whispers], went right over their head. [crosstalk] Yeah.
Yvette: It has an ROI. It's just not gonna be with the same variables that you've measured success up until now.
Frank: That's right.
Yvette: When you're building all new ways of working and living, it's gonna require new metrics. So-
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: -um, so yeah, so I think we're not alone in saying that, uh, you know, futurists don't predict. Uh, in fact, you know, recently, if we now sort of transition into what can we learn from the situation and-
Frank: Mm.
Yvette: -what can you all take away, uh, from the situation whether you are a practicing futurist in an organization, or whether you've hung a shingle, and you are consulting using Foresight, of course, at the future school, we, um, we love working with fellow consultants in the field, because with a mission to democratize the field, um, we know that there aren't nearly enough of us out there working with, uh, organizations and institutions to implement and integrate Foresight. So we love giving our consultant friends, uh-uh, corporate practitioners, organizational futurists, the-the-the-the skills, the methods, the tools to be able to-to do this work.
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: Um, and so we're not alone. This is not ro- you know, record-breaking, you know, or like earth-shattering the fact that we've said that futurists don't predict. In fact, recently someone had said, um, within the field which I thought was great. We don't predict, we prepare.
Frank: Yes.
Yvette: Right.
Frank: And the moment I read that phrase I was like, "Mmmmm."
Yvette: [laughs] You wanted to like say yes and, yes and.
Frank: Yes, and.
Yvette: Right.
Frank: Yes, and.
Yvette: Yes, and.
Frank: I don't know that I wanted to say yes, and, but you're being so nice.
Yvette: Well, you know, we're, you know, because we wanna-- we want--
Frank: We don't pre-predict. I just want-- I personally am also not a big fan of being future-proofed.
Yvette: And they didn't say proof.
Frank: They didn't say proof. They did say pre-prepared.
Yvette: Yes.
Frank: And I do think that's a part of it.
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: And we-- It'd be hard to deny that it's not, right.
Yvette: Right, right.
Frank: But I think it's not predict, prepare, but actually even better perceive. So to add a third P to that. Predict, prepare, perceive, that's the better way. So how do we ready our clients and government officials and just people all over the world democratizing Foresight to be perceivers of emerging realities, of novel realities of transformation?
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: And to flow with that, because, um, if we weren't in those, uh, systems of linearity and short-termism and mechanistic ways of operating, we would flow with what wants to emerge. And we would see healthy transformation taking place in human systems, and et cetera, et cetera. So I know that sounds e- you know, I made it sound easy and-and-
Yvette: Sounds woo-woo to some people.
Frank: It sounds-- It might sound a little woo-woo. It actually shouldn't, it should be the way things work, right?
Yvette: Yeah, yeah.
Frank: But, um, so-so more than being prepared, we need to perceive what's-- what is emerging.
Yvette: I would say we need to perceive what's emerging, and that the perception is also perceiving our own biases and assumptions.
Frank: Yes, that's right- that's right.
Yvette: Because, in order to perceive what's emerging as you know, we have to have our eyes wide open. Um, and often as humans, we filter out information that doesn't jive with what we already know to be true.
Frank: Yep.
Yvette: And so this is one of the reasons why that gentleman could not hear you. And it's why we say, even if I had a crystal ball, you wouldn't be able to see what's inside of it-
Frank: That's right.
Yvette: -because you haven't done the work.
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: You haven't done the work. And so-
Frank: I love that point.
Yvette: -that perception is so important. It's perceiving the external environment, but also having, um, the insight to know that you personally, I'm perceiving a different external environment and a different future than you're perceiving-
Frank: That's right.
Yvette: -than the listeners are perceiving, because-
Frank: Absolutely.
Yvette: -you know, we're all different. We all have different experiences in world views and perspectives. One of the reasons why we talk about Foresight being a team sport so much is because that kaleidoscope of experiences and, um, and lives makes it so important to co-create the future.
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: Um--
Frank: And-and-and I just wanna-- I wanna say it's perceiving your internal world-
Yvette: Mm-hmm.
Frank: -is perceiving your external world, is perceiving emerging patterns-
Yvette: Yes.
Frank: -it's perceiving, uh, you know, complexity, it's perceiving transformation. What you're talking about now is Foresight, because Foresight is this funnel discipline that really, uh, looks broadly and deeply.
Yvette: Mm.
Frank: And-and so that's the only thing I have about the preparation. I do understand the good part about preparation.
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: So, you know, you can send your letters to Santa Claus, [unintelligible 00:25:16] north pole-
Yvette: [unintelligible 00:25:17]
Frank: -and tell me all about preparation and how great it is.
Yvette: I-I get it-
Frank: But the only part--
Yvette: -it's the bridge thing, it's the bridge, and maybe the bridge is going to the wrong place.
Frank: And you hit on a minute ago the agency versus control piece.
Yvette: Yes. Yeah.
Frank: And contro-- I-I feel like if I'm in control, I'm prepared, but I don't know that anybody's ever really in complete control.
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: And, actually, the reason you're out of control is 'cause you're not trying to flow with what-
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: -what you can perceive. Yeah.
Yvette: Yeah, I think- yeah I think the reason that preparation may not be the best way to frame even a-- in a stepwise fashion is that it's going to lead them back to, well, to prepare, I need- I need to predict. To prepare, I need to know the options and I pick one.
Frank: Yeah, or I'm gonna be prepared for whatever comes my way, and I'll-- and it sounds good.
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: But the reality is the only way you're really gonna be prepared, we've gotta redefine what this word prepared means.
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: It means to perceive so, um-
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: -so a much larger view of-- instead of like I've got my swath, I've got my lane I'm seeing in.
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: And I'm gonna not let anything get in, and I'm gonna be prepared and things are gonna get in.
Yvette: That's true, that's true.
Frank: And so, uh, really it's not prediction, it's perception.
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: Good Foresight perception.
Yvette: You're right. The preparation almost is-is back to that risk aversion. I'm gonna be prepared no matter what happens.
Frank: Yep.
Yvette: Um, and-and then we do say we're gonna pull from possible futures-
Frank: Of course.
Yvette: -and-and be ready no matter what future emerges.
Frank: That's right.
Yvette: So the reason--
Frank: So if you-- if you define pre--preparation that way, it's-it's better.
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: I'm gonna be- I'm gonna be ready no matter what future emerges.
Yvette: Yeah, but I do-- I love the angle of perception, because as you are fond of saying, when we could perceive the future, you can co-create the future.
Frank: That's right.
Yvette: I think one of the reasons why the perception thing makes people uncomfortable, there's many reasons. It's foreign to them.
Frank: Yeah. Yep.
Yvette: Uh, it-it-it makes something they're relinquishing control.
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: Uh, and they're just not equipped to do it, so-
Frank: Yeah. That's right.
Yvette: -it goes hand in hand with our next sort of lesson which is the lesson of the year. Which is-- it's about capacity building. At the end of the day, I can't hand you my crystal ball, my friend, because you won't be able to see what's inside of it, so all Foresight efforts small or large need to include capacity building.
Frank: All right. You said it.
Yvette: That's it.
Frank: You know, sometimes I think we-- even we-
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: -who believe it very much [unintelligible 00:27:41] around it, because everybody doesn't want capacity building, but I'll tell you what?
Yvette: But if they don't want it-
Frank: If you don't want it-
Yvette: -their Foresight efforts are gonna fail.
Frank: Gonna fail. What does it mean to have capacity building, what does it mean?
Yvette: It-it could mean, you know, something as simple as, you know, I as a practitioner, as a strategist, as an innovator, as an HR professional, as a person, I'm going to practice in the field of Foresight to the extent that I'm gonna leverage the tools, methods, and mindsets and create the mindset within me, um, to channel and fuel my work every day with Foresight. Now, again, that doesn't happen overnight.
Frank: No.
Yvette: But, it's definitely at the individual level, but it can also be capacity building if you are talking about the scope of an organization, it could be all the way to like culture transformation and, you know, getting within the organization, but even then it's really about the individual.
Frank: Yeah. So I just wanted to ask, you know, what your definition of that was, and I think that we have the same definition, but yeah, it starts with the individual. I've often said that, um, you could present leaders' Foresight or the organization's Foresight, but unless hearts are changed-
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: -then it doesn't stick.
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: It won't stick, because then it-it's only a bright shiny object, and they think it's another just tool or methodology-
Yvette: Mm-hmm.
Frank: -that they could employ once a year.
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: -and it would fix some things.
Yvette: And the good news is if when you do this right-- I just wanna be clear, when you do this right, don't feel like you have to like light a candle or like go on a retreat like we're doing to change hearts. Like-
Frank: Yeah, that's right.
Yvette: -when practiced well when you're- when you're, you know, when you're co-creating the future, so that's why when we do a scenario project, we don't go away and write the scenarios and bring them back. I was having a great conversation with a fellow consultant, um, earlier this week. And she said, "Yeah, more and more our clients are like, 'could you just do that for us?'" And I get it, everyone's burnt out. Everyone's done, but you cannot outsource your future friends. You cannot.
Frank: Yeah. No.
Yvette: And it-it-it's not only not gonna be successful in the long run, it's not gonna be successful in the short run-
Frank: That's right.
Yvette: -whether it's a scenario project or what-whatever it is. So it's worth the investment to work alongside whoever you're partnering with, to co-create the future. And in that way, you are changed. Your leaders are changed and that's what you want because you want a sustainable effort. You don't wanna keep hiring a futurist every six months to tell you what's the top 10 trends. That's a useless exercise and no one in your organization's gonna implement anything that comes out of that because they don't own it. They don't believe it. Uh, they don't see it. They can't perceive it.
Frank: Okay. So you just said a minute ago, and I know we only have a few minutes left here, but-
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: -the idea that the reason perception seems weird is it feels woo-woo. The reason it feels woo-woo is because they haven't heard it. It's not a part of the nomenclature. It's not a part of the system that we- that we're in. As Foresight professionals, a large part of what we're doing is we're shifting systems to work better than the broken or outdated, or antiquated systems that don't work. The mechanism systems. And I love what you just said is, when-when you build capacity that you'll finally have that ability of perception. So you can see how this is just a circle. It's like if you're not gonna get that perception to stick unless you build capacity and you're not gonna have capacity unless you have the perception, the change hearts, et cetera, et cetera.
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: I had said to somebody this past week, um, I was having a conversation with a good friend of ours and I thought he said something so profound. It stuck with me a couple of weeks ago. It's just ringing in my head still. That, um, if I have a revelation about something, then it-it has a really profound impact on me. And it changes the way I think, large or small. And then I build a framework around it.
Yvette: Right. So you can- you could repeat it.
Frank: So I could repeat it.
Yvette: Make sense of it. Yeah.
Frank: Absolutely.
Yvette: Makes sense. Yeah.
Frank: And then I go pass it to somebody else and say like, all you gotta do is just follow the steps.
Yvette: Here's the crystal ball.
Frank: Here's the crystal ball-
Yvette: [laughs]
Frank: -and um, you know, you'll be able to-- And they never had the revelation that I had. And that's what-
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: -capacity building is. Another way to put that is, uh, capacity building is the sort of business corporate language.
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: The non-business corporate language, uh, would be a revelation.
Yvette: Yep.
Frank: Your organization needs to get a revelation, not a mechanism.
Yvette: Mm, powerful.
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: How about if that's our shout-out for today?
Frank: Oh, I love that.
Yvette: Mike Compton, what do you think?
Frank: Mike Compton is the good friend that I was talking about. Uh, Mike Compton, um, is a TFS alumnus.
Yvette: Yes.
Frank: Alumni. Alumni would be--
Yvette: Alumnus.
Frank: Alumnus?
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: Alumni, I think is female. The female-
Yvette: I get.
Frank: -version.
Yvette: I don't know.
Frank: Anyway, it doesn't matter because-
Yvette: He went to the future school.
Frank: -gender fluidity, gender fluidity.
Yvette: He went to the future school.
Frank: Um, but, uh, yeah, he did, uh, in Atlanta, it's been several years ago now. And, uh, we've kept in good contact and-and Mike is also a, um, embracer of Holoptic Foresight dynamics and transformations of Natural Foresight.
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: Um, he is an innovation professor. He was, uh, working, um, up till recently at the Columbus College of Art and Design where he was a design professor for many years, but now he works at Dennison University, which is also in Columbus, Ohio. Mike Compton, you're amazing. And, uh, thank you for all your contributions-
Yvette: Oh, sure.
Frank: -to the Foresight field.
Yvette: Excellent. So speaking of transformations, if you haven't heard we're doing an in-person retreat. There's still a couple of spots available if you're interested in joining us. Um, this is by invite-only 'cause there's, uh, very, very small availability, but if you're interested in, uh, exploring transformations both, uh, individually and personally, as well as for the field of Foresight, uh, and you want more information, please reach out. We'd be happy, happy, happy to have you join us. And to tell-tell you a little bit more who we are. We've bought out an entire property in California. It's gonna be amazing.
Frank: That's beautiful.
Yvette: Um, no PowerPoint slides, no traditional training. This is gonna be unlike any other TFS offering and we couldn't be more excited about it. It's gonna happen in September. And if you're interested in joining us, there's still some time if you wanna grab your spot. Um, of course, this is part-- Um, this podcast is part of our year of free, which is still going strong. Uh, you can listen to this podcast for free. You can hear our live stream, which is coming up. Um, this month we're gonna be doing doom versus gloom.
Frank: Our doom, doom, doom and bloom.
Yvette: Doom and bloom. Thank you. Doom and bloom. Right. So the idea of sort of those, uh, very popular, dystopic visions of the future versus the--
Frank: Bloomy flowery.
Yvette: The toxic positivity that-
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: -people are-are saying that-
Frank: Right.
Yvette: -others are-are-are, um, pushing. So that's gonna be a fun conversation. That's gonna-
Frank: It'll.
Yvette: -be live, um, later, uh, this month. So catch that. Of course, our Global Foresight Advisory Council is hosting another session in-
Frank: Mm.
Yvette: -August. Uh, do you wanna talk about that really quickly-quickly?
Frank: Yeah. Uh, uh, they, of course, the GFAC, the Global Foresight Advisory Council is the one who actually puts a speaker forth. Um, and then they're all on screen as well to ask the speaker questions.
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: But, um, in the background, people could be asking questions and our August guest is [unintelligible 00:35:04].
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: Um, who, uh, does lots of Foresight of the UN. Is an amazing Foresight practitioner. Um--
Yvette: It's gonna be great.
Frank: From my perspective, having been in the field for many years, one of the, uh, sort of, uh, new, uh, rebel-
Yvette: Voices.
Frank: -voices that's--
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: That is so, so powerful in the field. So we're so excited-
Yvette: Yeah.
Frank: -to have her.
Yvette: Excellent. And of course, there's still time to nominate someone for the year free to, uh, get free tuition at one of our global programs. And, of course, we're still, uh, continuing and we'll continue to offer the Natural Foresight framework as open source. So check out our resource center for free templates, downloadable tools, uh, every week we, uh, or every couple of weeks release something there. If you're not hearing about this stuff, it's probably 'cause you're not subscribed to our-
Frank: Mm.
Yvette: -newsletter 52 or it's showing up in your spam folders. So check out your junk and spam folders 'cause we send that out every Thursday and that has great information about upcoming programs, free stuff, um, our resources, and all of that good thought leadership that we offer up as well as dates for the live streams and the GFACs. So, uh, we hope to see you, hear you, talk to you around over the next few weeks. Um, the summer's usually a quiet time for us, but that is not the case this year. We're gonna be living on that plane that we started, uh, off this podcast with.
Frank: Yep. It's time to travel, next week. That's it.
Yvette: We're back to the scene.
Frank: Check out your junk. Check out your junk, check out your junk. That's what you heard. That's what--
Yvette: Check out your junk?
Frank: Yeah.
Frank: You were like, it might be in your junk or spam folders.
Yvette: Oh.
Frank: Check out your junk. Check out your junk.
Yvette: My money don't jingle jingle.
Frank: Yeah. It falls.
Yvette: It falls.
Frank: I want to see you wiggle, wiggle. It falls. Shut.
Yvette: [laughs] That's where we'll leave you. Thank you for joining us.
Frank: We started with the only friends, we end with tick, future talk, or whatever.
Yvette: Future tick talk.
Frank: Yeah.
Yvette: Foresight talk.
Frank: All right.
Yvette: All right. See you next time. Everybody, stay safe.
Frank: Take care.
Yvette: Bye.
[00:37:04] [END OF AUDIO]