Original intro/outro music:
"'Till I See Stars" by The Parachute Brigade
The sun does not always shine in West Virginia but the people always do know I'm delighted to be here.
Brandon Dennison:These are historic times in Appalachia. A lot has changed. A lot is changing now and a lot still needs to change. In our podcast we talked with change makers right square in the middle of all this working to ensure the change is for the good. You're listening to Change in the Coalfields podcast by Coalfield Development. I'm your host Brandon Dennison. Welcome to Change in the Coalfields. My name is Brandon Dennison. I'm CEO of Coalfield Development. And this is a podcast by Coalfield Development. And our guest this week is someone I have enormous respect for. Dr. Cicero Fain who is a professor here at Marshall University, I would like to thank the Marshall University iCenter for use of their podcasting studio. And Cicero, thank you for being here. I've just finished your book, "Black Huntington, an Appalachian Story,' and just find it fascinating. It's just so well done. And it's an important perspective of our history. And I hope everybody who listens will read it.
Cicero Fain:Well, thank you, Brandon. I'm delighted to be here. Your appreciation of the book is just so gratifying. It's been it's been real. It's been a real joy, the ride that I've been on since it's been published, and the unexpected appreciation of it has been something that I could have never imagined.
Brandon Dennison:Well, congratulations on it. I want to read a passage from the preface that I really liked. And you're reflecting on a barbecue that you've been with some friends who was actually out of town, but it was with a group of folks mostly who had grown up in Huntington, and you said,"Driving down I-70 to Columbus Sunday evening, radio off and window down. I savored the profundity of the day's events of the synchronicity and serendipity between my in our personal history, and my professional interest. Though bemused and a little dismayed over my inability to retain the same level of recall of the people and places and forming the old neighborhood and community as my friends. The trip had been gratifying, nourishing and edifying. It had presented an opportunity to discover through the communion with lifelong friends, the richness and uniqueness of our black experience in Huntington. It had reminded me that at my core, I am a Black Huntingtonian." So could we start at your core, so just tell us about who you are and your where you grew up?
Cicero Fain:Thank you for reading that. That's, I mean, that I think that's what has been somewhat of a surprising aspect of it that folks appreciate the personal story. I'm a fourth generation black Huntingtonian I had no ideas as a young man growing up that I wouldn't be where I am now, as a scholar, and the writer of this book. I just remember sitting on the front porch and listening to stories from my elders and neighbors chronicling the exploits and experiences and personalities that existed. And it planted a seed. And it just happened to germinate at a time in which it seems that it was somewhat preordained, I guess, to be going after my PhD in history, and you got to figure out something to write on. So I figured, why not Black Huntington. And so it just is, as I said before, it's just been so gratifying. You know, I'm a vessel, I'm a vessel for the people, friends, neighbors, cast of characters that existed, in my neighborhood and community and I just can't be more humbled, but yet proud to have this type of reception for the book.
Brandon Dennison:When you think of growing up in Huntington, what are some of your favorite memories as a child?
Cicero Fain:There I guess, there are several there's, there's a joy just sitting on a front porch, you know, there's, there's a cinema, you know, there's almost cinematic sitting on a front porch and watching life pass by you know, I would love to do something in terms of front porch stories, because a lot of people have those front porch stories, you know, from from, I don't know, from folks arguing in the streets to folks playing in the streets to folks waving passing by people stopping by both friends neighbors, strangers who just happen to say, 'Hey, look, this is this is seems like a welcoming space,' and and so that's always been that's, that's really foundational to my personal experience in scholarly inquiry, riding a bike out to read a park with my buddies and and going through, what is that is that Four Pole Creek?
Brandon Dennison:Four pole.
Cicero Fain:Four Pole Creek wading in the, in the creek and, and pulling out the crawdads and the salamanders and, and the frogs, you know, there's something I think I've come to appreciate the accessibility to Mother Nature that that Ritter Park offers and riding a bike through the park. And seeing you know, just communing with Mother Nature, seeing my first Great Owl and things like that, Hawks and things. And the challenge for my buddies and I was to ride the bike all the way up to the Huntington Museum of Art.
Brandon Dennison:Big hill.
Cicero Fain:That's a big hill. And it took us a long time to eventually do that in one setting.
Brandon Dennison:Without walking?
Cicero Fain:Without walking. But the joy of it would be, of course, coasting back down. And just you know, just hanging out with the buddies in the streets, playing football, playing basketball, just just hanging out.
Brandon Dennison:What did your parents do?
Cicero Fain:My dad eventually ended up being a went through, you know, several reincarnations or incarnations. At the last bit, he was a regional manager, Human Resources guy, he started off at BASF. BASF, and then went, got promoted to regional
Brandon Dennison:Oh, yeah, of course. position. He was on the forefront of the civil rights movement here was part of the Civic interest progressives, the folks that protested the segregation of babies cafeteria, white pantry, and my mom was, you know, the domestic, stalwart who raised and, and four children, she worked odd jobs as well. And you know, we just tried to survive and like any middle class family and, and internalize the lessons that they conveyed to us about character and faith and, and, and community and family, of course, I wouldn't be who I am without their, you know, their guidance and support. So much has been made in Huntington, such major contributions to our economy, for the country being right on the Ohio River, sort of being the conduit for all the coal coming out of the southern part of the state, most of it flowing through Huntington in the manufacturing of steel, big railroad town and, and Huntington has some of the largest minority census tracts in the entire state. So you tell a great story of Huntington's contributed so much to West Virginia to the country, and our Black populations been a huge piece of that story, as well. So I love that you tell that and remind us of that.
Cicero Fain:Well, that thank you. I mean, it's, it's true. I mean, it's a story that is really largely unknown and unappreciated. But I think it's an incredibly important story. I mean, it's just, it is a fascinating, To me it's a fascinating dichotomy that exists within this state. I mean, it's been historically predominantly white, predominantly conservative, in its political leanings, but yet black people, it has also been welcoming to Black people, especially in terms of labor. And the state would not be the state without Black contributions to it and sacrifice. And that's, that's for Huntington, that's for Charleston, that's for McDowell County that's for Clarksburg and, and other places within within the state. I'm just doing my little part to pay homage to those to those folks. You know, Huntington is we've got at least 12 streets named after Black folks in this city. We've got, you know, the A.D. Lewis Center, we got the JW Scott Center, we've got Douglas High School, Bethel Memorial Park Cemetery, there are these these venues and places, historical sites that that really helped chronicle, let's see, the Memphis Tennessee Garrison House, the Carter G. Woodson statue, the Hal Greer statue. You know, I like to tell the story of my mom dated Hal Greer for, the mythology is that my mom dated Hal Greer for a hot minute, and I could have been Hal Greer Jr. But my dad went to school with him.
Brandon Dennison:In case folks who are listening don't know Hal Greer named one of the top 50 greatest NBA players of all time, and I believe the first Black player to start at Marshall University, is that right?
Cicero Fain:That may be correct. Yeah, I can swear by that. But yes, he's top 75 Okay. So, you know, you you consider this richness, you know, and Carter G. Woodson, how can one encapsulate or chronicle the the enormous importance and The second person of color to get a PhD from Harvard following influence of Carter G. Woodson, you know, we can claim his form of experiences, we can claim that as Huntingtonians, in Huntington, in Huntington and so that's one of my, certainly one of my goals is to is to some way, celebrate. Well acknowledge and celebrate and chronicle that, that, that history, his experience here. I mean, his experience here is as a student at Douglas who graduated there who, who became principal of Douglas, who then went on, of course to become Dr. Carter G. Woodson. only... W.E.B. Dubois, but Carter G. Woodson was the first of slave parentage to get a PhD.
Brandon Dennison:I did not realize that, okay.
Cicero Fain:And so, you know, I would highly recommend that folks grab hold of Professor Burnis Morris's book on Garter G. Woodson, you know, a fellow Marshall colleague, you know, Carter G. Woodson is just not about Black people. It's about any marginalized group that has that within the historical narrative that recognizes and claims the legitimacy and validity of their history. Carter G. Woodson made that happen. He opened the window. So the the enormity of his legacy cannot be overstated.
Brandon Dennison:I was watching an interview with a policy community organizer, and it was it was a person coming from the liberal spectrum.
Cicero Fain:Sure.
Brandon Dennison:And you know, our senators been under discussion a lot in the national media and the organizer just made this flippant comment he said, 'Well, you know, they don't care about people of color in West Virginia. There's no people of color in West Virginia anyways.'
Cicero Fain:Still, that's the mentality?
Brandon Dennison:From the progressives, and I wanted to throw a shoe at my TV I mean, you just in Huntington you know, Memphis T. Garrison, Carter Woodson, Hal Greer very significant African American history but in our state, Henry Louis Gates, Jr.
Cicero Fain:Of course and Bill Withers.
Brandon Dennison:Bill Withers, Booker T. Washington, it goes on and on.
Cicero Fain:Katherine Johnson, I mean, it's yeah.
Brandon Dennison:It's an abomination to African American history to dismiss the diversity in our state.
Cicero Fain:I wish I had, I wish I'd have been around because I would have grabbed the guy back on the lapel and slapped him in the face. You know, it's, this is the challenge. This the challenge and opportunity, really does this state want to embrace, acknowledge and celebrate the richness of the history and the uniqueness of their history, because in large measure is not a story. The overarching narrative is not one of trauma and oppression, it really is about Black people taking advantage of opportunities here that were that were here, you know, Black people could vote here, they couldn't do that in a deep South. And so there was always been this kind of tension between the recognition that we need, we need Black labor, we want Black citizens, citizens, you know, who will who abide by the rules and laws and expectations of civil society, but ensuring that they that they maintain recognize benevolence segregation, is what the state called it.
Brandon Dennison:The dichotomy.
Cicero Fain:Yes. But, you know, they did establish Black institutions, they did support Black schools. This state did. And so, you know, we've the, the coal industry alone with the Black participation, and Black contribution. It just, you know, it's just, it would not have have existed or reached the pinnacle that it has, because Huntington could not have built the CNL railroad for Richmond through the New River Valley to Huntington without Black labor, there needs to be an acknowledgment of that, a recognition of that, a celebration of that, in a in a formalized way. And that's one of the things I'm working on, if I may. Okay, one of my goals is to establish a tri-state African American Heritage Museum here in Huntington, preferably within Hal Greer on Hal Greer Boulevard within the Fairfield West District, the heart of Black of historic Black Huntington, and it would be the vision would be a first class architecturally stunning world class destination, which would centered around Carter G. Woodson, certainly, but but not exclusive to him. You know, there are too many people that, that have made, too many Black people who have contributed in multiple ways, locally, regionally, nationally, and so it will really be about that's, that's let's acknowledge that. In fact, I've been working on a banner committee, initiated by Mayor Steve Williams, which will place 150, banners of 150 Black notables through downtown next February. And we just just finished that. And it is it's going to be so enriching.
Brandon Dennison:If people want to learn more about that vision, which is a great one, they can contact you?
Cicero Fain:Please contact me at fainc@marshall.edu.
Brandon Dennison:So this is a passion project?
Cicero Fain:This is a passion project, I am now seeking, I have some, some support. And we're now trying to conduct, to get an entity to conduct a feasibility study. And I think that's the key, that is the next critical step to evaluate the economic viability of such an entity. You know, the scholarly cultural part of it is settled the conceptual vision. I've got a first class organization chomping at the bit to come in and do the the conceptualization of the exhibit and display space. I've got the architect already ready.
Brandon Dennison:Now it's the money.
Cicero Fain:Now it is the money.
Brandon Dennison:I'm certainly supportive of it.
Cicero Fain:Thank you. Thank you Brandon.
Brandon Dennison:I want people who Listen to be supportive of it.
Cicero Fain:Thank you. I really appreciate it.
Brandon Dennison:Make it happen.
Cicero Fain:Yeah, let's make it happen.
Brandon Dennison:So did you attend Douglas High School?
Cicero Fain:I did not, no my dad did. My mom did my mom was actually I think she was a majorette there. And dad was a football player. I've got a lot of friends, you know, of that generation of their generation who graduated there and who speak unwaveringly about the quality of education that they garnered...
Brandon Dennison:The legacy of Carter G. Woodson.
Cicero Fain:Yeah, my dad will will to this day, and others of his ilk will say to this day, it was an education, you know, par excellence. It was it was something else. And so, you know, I graduated from Huntington high, it's so gratifying for me as a historian to have this kind of intergenerational context, or connections that helped to kind of animate my, my connections to the community, my, my, my identity, and my and my scholarship. And so the, you know, folks of his generation, my mom passed in 2017, excuse me, 2007, my brother passed 2017. But dad and others of his generation are excited about the possibility of the vision. So there are some challenges for sure. But I, we will keep moving forward as best we can.
Brandon Dennison:It is fascinating, sort of diving into your book.
Cicero Fain:Yes.
Brandon Dennison:So you start with slavery, right before the Civil War. And then you you build, you know, throughout the 20th century, and as I read, it almost seemed like Black Huntingtonians had more freedom in like the 1880s, when the city was first, developing so that it actually sort of feels like it slips away there. Until civil rights, sort of has this reemergence. And so what my big reflection on the book is that, fights for justice are not this sort of linear, A to Z process, that there's forward steps and backward steps and ups and downs, and sure, we can lose what we gain and vice versa.
Cicero Fain:Sure, sure. I think you're right on with that observation, Brandon. What's important, though, is that black people continually adjusted and adapted to the prevailing racial politics and racialized dynamics, circumstances in which they lived in. So you know, you construct your own Black institutions. You you, you attempt to construct a Black-based economy, entrepreneurial based, you concentrate on the family, the domestic arena, you send the kids to school, because you realize education is the primary vehicle to move your individual family circumstance, but also the race forward. And so that's what I would that's what I tried to center as West Virginia as you know, as benevolent segregation begins to slowly and the machinations and mentalities creeps into the body politic. That's what I tried to really foreground.
Brandon Dennison:That phrase caught my attention, benevolent segregation. So in the Deep South Alabama, it's like a violent,
Cicero Fain:Yes, yes.
Brandon Dennison:Overt segregation.
Cicero Fain:Well said.
Brandon Dennison:Whereas there's, you know, Rust Belt, some states closer north, it's, could you explain the difference in your own words?
Cicero Fain:You know, there was, there was always an abiding recognition within the body politic, I think with I can't speak to the state, but certainly within Huntington that we need Black labor. We want to find his Black citizens, as long as they recognize where their place is within society. Now, on the other hand, Black people say, 'Well, we don't care had to socialize with you. That's, that's not our primary aim, our primary aim is to send our kids to school to acquire jobs, so we can move up the economic ladder to build black institutions, and we're happy to coexist with you, and really never, or at a minmally, interact. Certainly they want to the talent is to coalesce the, the the numbers, the population into into action that will ameliorate their conditions, you know, they're at the bottom of the occupational ladder. They're not enough to really affect political change. They exist as best they can they do challenge the prevailing political situation as best they can. And they challenge the the social status quo as well. You know, I chronicled that. What is fascinating to me is that Black Huntingtonians engaged in a kind of intra-class Alliance. There's an interesting there's, there's, you know, Black, class stratification has always been a challenge, that's, that's been a reality of Black certain of the Black experience. And to some extent, the Black middle class here, Black professional class, attempted to separate itself out from the Black working class. I mean, that's, that's somewhat human nature. But but at the same time, by doing so you, you dilute your political power, your political clout. And so, you know, I chronicle the story of white versus white, the the key case in which the state of West Virginia struck down racial covenants, and that was an intra-class effort. And so there were there were times in which folks coalesced and focused their political, their political clout and objectives to achieve aims.
Brandon Dennison:Pretty remarkable.
Cicero Fain:Yeah, I think so. I think so. And so, you know, I just, it has just been so, I keep coming back to this. It's just been so gratifying, you know, look, when I started doing this book, I was like, 'Who the hell is gonna read it?' My advisor at the time at Ohio State, you know, I'm writing about a small, I'm doing a micro-history on a small, Black population in a city that very few people know about
Brandon Dennison:In a state that some people think is the same as Roanoke.
Cicero Fain:Thank you. Exactly. Yes. And so there were no when I was writing this, I didn't have I didn't have a goal to to say,'Okay, let's let's who's who's going to counseling and guide me on writing about Black Huntingtonians. Black Huntington, and so eventually, you know, Dr. William H. Turner, the preeminent Black Appalachian scholar, kind of took me under his wing and really gave me some great advice and counsel, and exposed me to greater, to the greater of what fraternity of folks engaged in Black Appalachian scholarship. And that's been really important to me, because it is it has helped give me a sense of pride and a place of belonging to, to folks. And, and again, I will say that, while this is a micro history, Huntington is so, the the elements and the history of Huntington, the dynamics of Huntington, racial, social, cultural, economic, while unique in many regards, also universal. And I think that is, somewhat of that has kind of resonated with with the readership.
Brandon Dennison:Absolutely. Yeah, they can connect whether from Huntington or not.
Cicero Fain:Right, right.
Brandon Dennison:Connect with the stories being told.
Cicero Fain:And it has been a delight to see folks who have left the state, but still have an abiding connection to it. And I think to some extent, even if you're not from Huntington, this book helps to build a connection back to a time and a place and to your family history, that that resonates for them.
Brandon Dennison:It's clear in the book, you've combed a lot of data. Yeah. Economic data, census data, socio economic data. You're obviously, you've heard a lot of stories you grew up here. It's a topic you started pretty well familiar with.
Cicero Fain:Sure.
Brandon Dennison:Was there anything in your research that really surprised you?
Cicero Fain:Well, I mean, let me let me say let me answer that by by by making two points. Number one is, I was blessed to have the resources out there, you know, folks had done work. You know, I didn't have to necessarily reinvent the wheel, there was a, there was a, there was a treasure trove of documents, archival information, you know, just all kinds of stuff out there, no one had done a comprehensive study. And so that was my challenge, and joy. And so, that's been certainly, I'm really proud of the work. The book could not have been done, if it hadn't been done when it was done. I mean, you know, timing is, timing is everything, folks died, you know, immediately afterwards. You know, my life changes, you know, life changes and things like that. So, it almost, you know, it was the The Blues Brothers were on a mission from God. And so I won't go that far. But you know, serendipity and timing, is everything in this. To answer the second question, the most illuminating, surprising part to me was I always, when I was doing a dissertation, I was trying to make a connection between this information, I figured that there was there was a grapevine telegraph, which is I think, chapter two discusses that. I was trying to figure out, was there how to how to folks at the at the, in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War? How did they figure out, learn to come to travel from Buckingham County, Central Virginia, to Huntington west by God. And, you know, this is we don't have Twitter, Facebook, you know, iPhones to do the research and go to Greenbrier County and discover that that was an actual that the grapevine Telegraph existed, and that White Sulphur Springs served as a Nexus.
Brandon Dennison:You intuitively figured it must have been there.
Cicero Fain:Yes.
Brandon Dennison:But then you actually found the document trail. And so there's this great chapter of The Greenbrier, which is the famous resort in Greenbrier County, has been a famous resort for a long time that wealthy white people would vacation to and there's often you know, take servant labor, slave labor before Civil War.
Cicero Fain:Yes.
Brandon Dennison:And it created the you call it like a Nexus where different people from different areas could communicate about where there might be opportunities. Do I
Cicero Fain:Yeah, well said. Yeah. I just and that fascinated have that right? me, in my humble opinion. White Sulphur Springs/The Greenbrier represents the longest sustained Black presence of any one site in the state. Slaves helped build White Sulphur Springs. There is a famous painting done by a German, Christian Mayor in 1838, that chronicles a kitchen ball held by slaves and free Blacks dressed up in the, the, the...
Brandon Dennison:There's a picture of that in the book.
Cicero Fain:Yeah, the finest clothing of the era, you know, and you move, take 1838, then you move into the Civil War era. And now you know, of course, Katherine Johnson, from Hidden Figures, the the, the NASA mathematician, is from White Sulphur Springs. And so there are still Black, as far as I understand. There are still folks who work at the Greenbrier who's who's been, whose family have been employed in at the Greenbrier for several generations, I would strongly encourage the management of the Greenbrier and the owner, I believe, Governor Jim justice, to to take steps to chronicle and celebrate recognize that is to bring in Black folk and others from the region and say,'Hey, look, this is this is intrinsic to what the Greenbrier is.' And so that to me, and it is, I don't know of any the fascinating thing about the White Sulpher Springs/Greenbrier at this time in the slave era, is that not only did they use slave labor, they hired slave labor. You know, so you're employing slave labor. That kind of undermines the whole notion of a slave if you're employing them, and thus, presumably paying them wages, which of course, the slave probably had to give back to their master because they were being loaned out. But I do know, and you know, the book chronicles, the various employees soliciting for tips, they built the Grand Ballroom, I believe at the Grand Hotel, they had a huge ballroom where they would serve dinners, and they will have slave bartender or even they brought in free Blacks from Washington D.C. at one point. In essence, then the whole power dynamics have been usurped. Because white southerners realize if they want to sit next to somebody, or get the best chair, they need to rely upon the the kindness of that slave waiter to facilitate or not only the kindness, the smarts, these...
Brandon Dennison:The social skills?
Cicero Fain:The social skills to for that, for that particular patron, to sit where he or she wanted to sit. And that required a little, little money to exchange hands. And so in my, what I essentially detail is slaves having power within this dynamic, they're not going to have the same type of power within well outside of the White Sulpher Springs. But they're able to recognize...
Brandon Dennison:To leverage what could be leveraged.
Cicero Fain:Yes, to leverage what they could leverage. And they do so in a really, I think it's clear that they do so in a very successful way.
Brandon Dennison:It seems really important you Cicero that both in the book and in this conversation that, of course, we want to be honest, that Black Huntingtonians were sort of a minority within a minority being in a state with the struggles that we've had. But that you don't want the whole story to be defined by by trauma, and struggle, it's more persistence, creativity, and adaptability, those are the main themes you want to come through here not to discount the challenges.
Cicero Fain:No, not not at all. Not at all. I mean, folks were lynched. You know, folks were folks were executed, you know, disproportionately Black folks, especially in southern West Virginia. And that's a key component of the story. But that doesn't define the entirety of the story. And I don't think it defines the entirety of Black Huntington either, that's got to be got to be included. It's got to be foreground, but it is a small part of the overarching success, the historical success that Black people have achieved in the city and in the state.
Brandon Dennison:You're a proud Appalachian.
Cicero Fain:I am.
Brandon Dennison:You called the book is, 'Black Huntington, an Appalachian Story.'
Cicero Fain:Sure.
Brandon Dennison:What are some of the biggest changes you've seen? Here's my final question. What are some of the biggest changes you've seen in the region? And what are some of the biggest changes you still hope to see?
Cicero Fain:Out migration is still a problem. I think we have to do a better job of celebrating diversity, diverse communities, our vibrant communities, our economically vibrant communities. And I'm certainly that is part of my mission here at Marshall and in the community. To and within that, within that mission, is of course, to have Black people come back and to recognize that it is incumbent upon them if they want to move Fairfield West forward that they've got to have some skin in the game, I'm really gratified by the talent that exists within the Fairfield West, the commitment, the passion, the the various perspectives, you know I've been gone a long time. So I'm really, I'm delighted to see the kind of energy amongst various constituencies dedicated to revitalizing Fairfield West and the Fairfield District in totality. The city needs a revitalized Fairfield West. Marshall needs revitalized Fairfield West. It is not just about one entity. It's about multiple folks engaging in the effort and putting dollars to the table to move it forward.
Brandon Dennison:Well, thank you for your contributions.
Cicero Fain:Brandon.
Brandon Dennison:You're a true scholar. I look forward to the next book.
Cicero Fain:Thank you.
Brandon Dennison:I look forward to working with you on this vision for revitilization.
Cicero Fain:Yes sir, it's been a pleasure. I really appreciate it, Brandon.
Brandon Dennison:Take care.
Cicero Fain:Yeah, you too.
Brandon Dennison:Change in the Coalfields is a podcast created by Coalfield Development in the hills and hollers of West Virginia. This episode was hosted by Brandon Dennison, and produced and edited by JJN Multimedia. Become a part of our mission to rebuild the Appalachian economy by going to our website, coalfield-development.org, to make a donation. You can email us anytime at info@coalfield-development.org and subscribe to our newsletter for more information on the podcast. You can follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn by searching Coalfield Development. Check back soon for more episodes.