We took a couple weeks off for the Holiday but we're back with a brand new episode! This week we have a virtual conversation with Bishop Charles Shaw about racism, the importance of vocational schools in rural areas and industry training, as well as Shaw's past as a coal miner.
Check out our social media to see some video clips of the conversation and let us know what you think of this format!
We took a couple weeks off for the Holiday but we're back with a brand new episode! This week we have a virtual conversation with Bishop Charles Shaw about racism, the importance of vocational schools in rural areas and industry training, as well as Shaw's past as a coal miner.
Check out our social media to see some video clips of the conversation and let us know what you think of this format!
Welcome to Gumption, Grit, and Gace, a podcast by Coalfield Development. My name is Brandon Dennison. I'm the founder and CEO and I'm really honored to have a special guest with us for today, Bishop Charles Shaw. Bishop Shaw pastors the Real Life Christian Church in Huntington, West Virginia. He's very involved with the Black Pastors Association. He's a key leader in the community and is a member of the city council. So clearly a distinguished leader and a committed member of this community and an amazing leader of faith. And someone we've done, we've got to do a fair amount of work together at this point on some job training and workforce development projects. And Bishop Shaw, I have a ton of respect for you. And it's my pleasure to welcome you to the podcast.
Bishop Charles Shaw:Well thank you so much, Brandon, it's my pleasure to be with you on this Thanksgiving Eve. I wouldn't do that for a lot of people, but with your character and your relationship, it makes it easier that I could do that. Glad to be with you, man. Appreciate the kind words.
Brandon Dennison:Thank you for that. Yes and Happy Thanksgiving. I'm glad you brought that up. This is all about Appalachia, really pretty broad. I wonder if you could just tell us a little bit about yourself - who you are, where you where you grew up?
Bishop Charles Shaw:Sure. I'm just as you said, Charles Shaw, I am Appalachian through and through. I grew up in Logan County, a small little town called Whitman Creek. I guess, I guess it would be akin to a coal camp community. And I grew up there and had lived there most of my life, had a great upbringing, learned a lot. And I am, Brandon, I am one of 13 children. You don't hear that a lot today. But my mom had 13, one passed away as an infant. And my dad, he passed away when I was six years old, and he worked in the mining industry and, man, we just we just grew up there in a three room house. And Brandon, I know what I said, I didn't say three bedrooms, I said three rooms...
Brandon Dennison:13 kids in three rooms. A kitchen, a living room and bedroom, you know. The bathroom was outside. I had all those good experiences, you know - at home with my mother, you just felt such a great love and taught us to respect each other and one another. And I just love her for it and appreciate my experience in life. How long did your mother stay in that house after you had left?
Bishop Charles Shaw:That's a good story. We lived in that same house. My dad as I said he passed when I was six, but she was still raising, I don't know, probably six hours, you know, at that time. You know, we stayed in that same house. And probably when I was I remember being in like the ninth grade, we got to add a bathroom onto that house. And I just remember it was kind of fascinated with the carpentry aspect when the guy came and built the room and and we finally got an indoor bathroom at that point. But the house was still that old three room house. And you know, it had continual issues and problems with roof leaks, and this, that and the other. But man, Brandon, one of the greatest feats...when my brother and I, my brother is two years older than me, he went into coal mines when he was like 19, you know, and got married around that time, too. And I had actually left and came to Huntington. But I had to move back because I was out of a job, I got laid off in Huntington. So I moved back to the area and got a house down the street from my mom. But she was still living in that house. It was...in really disrepair. But my brother and I along with my wife and his wife, we decided that we were going to build our mother a new home if we didn't do anything else. So the Lord blessed us and we had cooperative spouses and and we were able to literally demolish that home and build her a brand new home right there that actually had three bedrooms, and two baths, you know, and her last year is probably her last eight to 10 years of life. She was able to enjoy that. And man, that was a great joy in my life. Man, that was fantastic.
Brandon Dennison:So all those siblings packed in a house like that was there a lot of fighting?
Bishop Charles Shaw:Oh man. But you know, of course, of course the you know, the older ones, you know, they went into the military as they graduated from high school, they went off. But there was always a group there and definitely there were a lot of disputes and fightings - and it was really my mother kept a tight rein. Man, I'm gonna tell you this one story, you may get a kick out of it as a child, I guess, um, I don't know, eleven or something like that. My older brother, he would annoy me and I was kind of just sitting in the corner. But there was a time, you know, and we were getting, you know, thinking we were grown enough we were out around with friends. And you know, sometimes when we were out we would, we would use curse words. But man, one time I was at home, I didn't have enough understanding to know I couldn't do that. I knew it was wrong. And we didn't ordinarily do it. But I got really angry. And when I got angry, I just went to curse and right at the house in front of my mother, but and I thought I was okay. But Lord, when I finished, my mother got me. And I got the whip and they would call social services. But then she taught me a lesson. No, you don't do that, you know, I wasn't as grown as I thought it was right. Those fights had to be measured.
Brandon Dennison:Reality check brought to you by mom.
Bishop Charles Shaw:Absolutely, absolutely. And she was not bashful about doing that, you know.
Brandon Dennison:So you are obviously a bishop in your church, a leader in your church, was church a big part of your childhood, as well? Or did that come later in life?
Bishop Charles Shaw:It was a part of my childhood. When I was like 12 years old, I got involved with the church and I had a God experience really. We went to a community church, you know, as kids, Sunday school and those kinds of things. And, and I was the child that really did not want to go. Oftentimes, my mother would not go but she was send us and I would, if I got quiet enough on a Sunday morning, and didn't disturb her, I often could stay home. That was my role, my plight and I tried to just stay home and get quiet. When I was 12 years old, my sister who was in high school, she was a senior in high school, she had had an experience a real experience with God and relationship. And I saw the change in her life at home, you know, I saw her being a different person in the kitchen, washing dishes and, you know, singing a godly song and tears running down her eyes. I said - wow. I knew it was a change in her life. And so she was going out to service one week, during a weeknight, which was rare at that time. It was like a Tuesday night service, prayer service or something. And I asked her as she's going out the door if somebody's out to pick her up. I said, Where are you going? And she said, I'm going to church. I said,"Church? Church on a weeknight." And she said, yeah, she said,"You ought to come and go," she said, "they got drums over there." Brandon, where we grew up, they didn't have drums. I said, "Drums?!" And man, all of a sudden, I had Ringo Starr of The Beatles. And I said, Oh, my God, I jumped up, grab a coat and went with her. And Brandon when I got there, this experience was, it's funny, and I remember it to this day, and it was actually it was a church that had started in a living room. So it wasn't a church building. But it was a ministry that was starting off. And I walked in the living room, they had one big bass drum in the floor, which had a bass drum stick they would beat it with. And then they had one trap drum propped up in a chair. I was so disappointed - it was not a Ringo Starr thing. So but anyway, but you know, after being there, I said, well, they are drums, and I've never been around drums before, not in school band or anything. But that's what got me there. But after being there for a time or two, I actually had an experience with God that from that day forward, 12 years old, I've been entrenched in church, and I've learned a lot and it's kept me, I think it's kept me balanced and kept me in the place that I am. And it has a lot to do with who I am today.
Brandon Dennison:Sure. And I feel like you know, you said you're Appalachia through and through I do I feel like the church is such a central piece of of Appalachian culture and identity and, and a source of hope and comfort. For so many people that face tough times.
Bishop Charles Shaw:Absolutely, man. And I think when we, when we involve God in our lives, Brandon, I think that's the best thing that we can do because we all came from somewhere. And when we look at it, we all know, it's somebody bigger than us, you know. It's not just my parents got together, but there's many, many things in my life that I totally attribute God to, for bringing me through situations and circumstances. I watched my mother, Brandon, in that house with 13 kids - of course, there are many times that we actually did not have food in that home. And my dad's died, you know, got some brothers there some high school and some of them might be working a little bit, but there was literally no food in the house. But I watched my mother walk through the house and just, you know, talk to the Lord and sing and pray. And just, I know it had to weigh on her heavy. And one of her favorite sayings, which we all repeat today was"Father You Know," and you know, we knew that was one of her prayers. Like God, you know, everything, you know, but man, as a child, I did not know, I just knew I was hungry. We didn't have food. I literally mean we didn't have food. I'm not talking about something I didn't like or something like that I didn't want. And it seemed like it never failed. Somehow, somebody would bring a bag of groceries to our house. I don't know what made it happen, who talked to who or what. But I all I saw was her relationship with God. And the next thing I know, somebody's at my door, you know, with a bag of groceries. And so picking up Appalachia and trusting God, that's been a strength of our life. And I know some people tried to portray it as a weakness, when you have to trust in God. But no, that's that's the way we have gotten through. And I still utilize that today.
Brandon Dennison:You know, one could be forgiven. I mean, if you grew up in a three room house, not three bedrooms, three rooms without a bathroom, and you're talking about true experiences of sometimes not knowing where dinner would come from, you know, someone might could, could get pretty bitter because of an experience like that feel like the world was against them? Did anyone in your family sort ever struggle with that sort of bitterness or anger? Or resentment? And how was that? How was that side of sort of the emotional, psychological side of poverty? How was that overcome?
Bishop Charles Shaw:I definitely would say that they struggled with it and became angry. But honestly, I don't think anyone became angry at God for it. It may have been circumstances with people, with society that happened, that will make us all angry, you know, as we saw things and, and experienced things, but we still had that foundation that, that let us know that God was God. And he's, he hears us and you know, he's there for us. And he'll support us. And as Christ taught his disciples in the scripture, where we get our, what we call the Lord's Prayer from - the thought that prayer said, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." So when I get to the place that I want heaven's will to be done on earth, which is in my life, in our everything that involves me, oftentimes, is not that I get the answer that I want. My first child when she was in about the eighth or ninth grade, she came down with complete renal failure. And this was nothing diagnosed, she kept doctor visits and all that stuff. I had good medical coverage, you know, but it came all of a sudden, it was slow, but it was all of a sudden to us, because when we found out, both kidneys had failed, and she was in complete renal failure. And the next step, she had to go on dialysis, waiting for a transplant. And man Brandon, during that time, I wanted God to restore her kidneys. That was my prayer. No, no jokes about it, you can do it you are a miracle worker, you did work miracles in the Bible, I want to see a miracle here for my innocent 15-year-old child, it didn't happen that way. How it ended up happening, Brandon, I was able to be a donor, a living donor to my daughter, and give her a kidney. And now my daughter is functioning and she's around - she's a powerful praise and worship leader in my church. And she has a husband, and she's thriving. But you know, I could very easily have gotten angry with God who didn't do what I said. But God answered my prayer. But it wasn't just like, I thought he would do it. So sometimes we don't just want God to answer it, we want God to do it the way I think you should do it. And that's where we get messed up. But my daughter is living and thriving and happy. And I'm happy, you know, so you know, I gotta you know, many people don't don't have that experience, they lose a child, lose a loved one. But you know, so God did answer my prayer.
Brandon Dennison:You have an Appalachian story. I think a lot of folks who maybe aren't from Appalachia or haven't been to Appalachia, there's a stereotype. You know, and the stereotype is probably a"redneck"or you know "trailer trash" is a phrase that get - we know, you know, we know the terms. Most folks, pretty much assume everyone in Appalachia is white. And you know, that's not true. There's, I mean, maybe our demographics are whiter than some big cities, but there's actually a lot of diversity in Appalachia. But I do wonder growing up in Logan, you mentioned Ringo Starr, so I assume was that the 60s?
Bishop Charles Shaw:Yeah, yeah.
Brandon Dennison:You know, did you experience overt either explicit or implicit racism? And how did you and your family cope with that?
Bishop Charles Shaw:Brandon, I think, as you mentioned, that an African American is a minority - I think we might be makeup of West Virginia, so maybe like 3%(or) 4% of the population. So we definitely, I definitely experienced racism. When I was like, in the fifth grade, sixth grade, you know, back then, in my class, maybe of 20-30 kids, usually maybe it was two of us, might have been two of us in the classroom, two African Americans. By and large, all through grade school. The principal was wanting the monitors, you know, you know, you had that strap and a badge and, you know, (during) lunchtime, you'd go out and you watch. In my, in my mind, it's like a policeman. You know, I thought I always wanted to be a policeman but, but it was a good start. I said, man, I can be a monitor. So he had signed up and I didn't make the first cut. I mean...I didn't make the first cut. But then he ended up being short a couple (monitors). And he came around, the principal came around to the class, you know, man, my hand was just waving, and I said, "I'm the one." And, but in any event, I wasn't selected, you know. And I thought of that and I looked at that, and I was, I was a pretty good kid and I wasn't bad. And I was athletic. And I thought I was strong enough to be a cop or to be a monitor, stuff like that. But, but I wasn't selected. It was another gentleman, you know, because he was white. But it didn't have to be racism, but as I look at some things, I wouldn't take that one incident alone, but I put it together with other incidents. For example, we were able to charge our lunch 25 cent and mother would pay it, you know, when she got her check in the month, you know, but somehow she got behind - I'm a child, I don't know what goes on in the house and the finances - but they cut us off. So we couldn't eat lunch, you know, and I was at school with no lunch. And I remember the teacher pulling me out the line, saying you can't go. So anyway but I remember the same principal, come into class one day, and everybody's excited, the teacher was excited because the principal was her supervisor. And anyway, he looks at me and he says, "When your mama go and pay that lunch bill?" (in front of ) the whole class.
Brandon Dennison:In front of the whole class?
Bishop Charles Shaw:Yeah, in front of everybody. You know, what do I know? So I said, I don't know. But he, he grilled me...you think telemarketer the bad today? This this guy kind of excoriated me in front of my all my peers, my classmates. Teacher didn't say anything. You know, he was the one in charge. But I mean, you know, that's, that was a, that was uncalled for. And you know, you and I could tell other stories. But I went through school Brandon, and I will say I was a vocational kid, I came out of high school as a certified welder, because I took it at vocational school. And I love it. I enjoyed it now. I worked six days a week, after school from 4:30 to 12:30. And I did that because I had no money. And it was a way for me to have money in my pocket. And, and it was great. It was good experience. I learned how to work and you know, the grocery store and learn that industry some. I went through that, but then after, after that, I got a job as a welder at a machine shop. Personnel guy telling me he said - Well, I got this welding job, but I'm gonna have to start you as a custodian, because I need a custodian. And that job's not open yet, but it's advertised there. But it's open, but I need to I need to fill this job first. So it's okay, no problem. And so I started as a custodian, no biggie. So but then, but then I go back and tell my owner of the grocery store (that) I'm about to leave. And I guess my work ethic was well enough that he wanted to keep me so he gives me a raise to stay, you know, and talks to me. I said, Okay, fine, I'll stay. So then I go back and tell them that I won't be there. I called him. I won't be in, I got a raise (from my other job). And so this guy at the machine shop, he said, "Well," he said,"I'll give you a raise, what I'll do, I'll go ahead and pay you welder's pay for doing custodial work." I said, really? And he said, yeah. So, so he does it, and I said that's okay. So I go back to the supervisor, and it almost sounds like I'm trying to pit each other, but I wasn't smart enough to do that. It was just the way it was happening. I was just informing each other as to what was going on. So I took the job. I'm doing the custodial work and I'm saying custodial not cleaning the office per se, that is involved, but we're cleaning up after dusty resistors and shoveling up and doing stuff where they work on mining equipment, all that kind of stuff. And you know, and it's you know, I'm all day long doing that, you know. In any event, I go and walk through the shop and I'm seeing guys I graduated with, went to school with, they got another job over here (and) you know, it's a skilled job. You know, it's not welding but it's another skilled job and pay good and I'd say "Hey, how are you doing?" I'm speaking and then it happened two or three times. To make it short, guys I went to school with, and I'm already there working, I didn't get to get none of those jobs. I had to stay as (a custodian). So finally I had to go talk to the guy at personnel say - Look, man, you were supposed to get me a welding job. So finally, by me doing that, he finally did move me on back there, you know, but, but, you know, I could have had any of that either of those jobs. But I think they were comfortable with me being that custodian, you know what I mean. And things like that but you see stuff and you think about it and you know, but those were a few simple things. It was a few simple things.
Brandon Dennison:So you spent some time...so you're a welder. And then you also spent some time as a coal miner, is that right?
Bishop Charles Shaw:That's right. I did like, I did like 16 years. You know, I'm in Huntington now, if anybody knows about ACF, there's been talk about now the property, because now they call it a Brownfield, they're going to redevelop it. But we built a center flow hopper cars from the from start to finish taking two pieces of metal putting together, and it went out the end of the shop a painted railroad car that you see on the tracks today, running up and down. These great cars with center flow, fully covered. And I welded, I came there to weld - I left that machine shop. After that Brandon, I got...there was a big layoff they had, probably like 82. And they were accostumed to have layoff because orders change. But, but you know, it was a week or two and you came back. But they told us on this one, (they) wouldn't be calling you back. So I was married, I'm in Huntington, I met my wife here. So I've got a church here, I'm in a church here, attending the church. So I got my wife, and we have two kids, and my wife is pregnant with the third kid. And, and I don't have a job. I always said like most of the guys in high school, I'll never go into the coal mine. But my brother...
Brandon Dennison:You had said, as a kid, I'll never go in the mine?
Bishop Charles Shaw:We don't want to do that. That's kind of the things we (were) kind of learning.
Brandon Dennison:You said, your dad was a minor, too?
Bishop Charles Shaw:My dad was, my dad was a miner. He probably was, had suffered from black lung and stuff, you know, which cut his life short, you know. But, but at that point, I looked at my wife and my kids and, and I had an opportunity to get a job back in Mingo County in the coal mines. I said, Well, I'll go in a coal mine. So I did and so I spent 16 years there, I think I was in one of the most opportune places, because they had enough money. And they were concerned enough about safety, that they did things right. And then the coal seam was high enough, you know, where I didn't have to crawl around the work, I could walk up, you know, because it was eight foot coal seems and things like that. So I had, if you're going to go that was an ideal place to go, it was like a pristine place as far as a mine, it was still dangerous, you know, because the nature of it, but, but I did that for like 16 years. And, and I was, I started in as a red hat, of course, as everybody does. And then, you know, I was a equipment operator, and I ended up before I left there, I was a mine foreman, and I've got my certification, and a supervisory level of a crew, you know, before I left there, so I had a great experience. Lord, blessed me, God always put people in my pathway. In the midst of opposition, I could tell you about opposition, every job I've been at but, there has always been somebody that I look like that God placed there to help me get to where I needed to get. And, you know, that's why, that's how my faith in God and what my experience with God has been.
Brandon Dennison:Absolutely. How has it been hard for you to watch the coal industry decline? I mean, if that was such a part of your...for generations, right? Not just your life, but you know, generations before you and even you know, in Huntington a lot of the steel industry we have or the rail industry we have is on the back of coal. Has that been hard for you to see that industry decline?
Bishop Charles Shaw:It has been but but Brandon, when you be realistic about it, it's the what's been harder for me is to have people come and tell coal miners that we're going to work and we're going to do this and and when all the time, if you're involved with it and look at it, the coal seams are being mined out. Those high coal seams I spoke about, you know...in the middle of a mountain is high but then when you're underground, when you get to the slopes of a mountain it goes real low. And it's not being reproduced. Nobody - you can't go out and plant a coal seam. So it's running out. I think it's a natural process. And it's been harder for me to watch the political world. And when they take it up there and act as if they're going to do this great thing and make it come back. And it's not coming back. There's no resource and even when coal runs out, and you know, the hundreds and thousands and millions of years it took for coal to create itself. It's not coming back.
Brandon Dennison:Non-renewable resource.
Bishop Charles Shaw:Absolutely. And but I hate deception of folks who try to use that in a political way. I mean, my gosh, you know, we have to retrain, you know, and we have to look at other opportunities.
Brandon Dennison:So to that point, you're a key leader in Central Appalachia. Not you know, not just in Huntington, but really for for the region. And we talked about retraining, retooling, sort of rebuilding a new economy for Appalachia. Where are you seeing progress in that effort? And where are you still concerned?
Bishop Charles Shaw:I see some progress in some of the retraining, I'm glad to see, it seems like now today, there's a turn or at least an understanding that everybody will not go to a four year university and get a bachelor's degree. But there is a great need for folks who will use their hands and, and use their minds and brains. And they work in industry, you know, in the vocation, which is what I came up doing. I'm curious that like, someone out west and some of our junior colleges now, their emphasis is on training folks to be able to make a living for themselves and the family. And I think industry is seeing that that's so critical. New industry understands one of the things that's a negative, when we try to get folks to come to Appalachia, and open up new plants and create new jobs. One of the first things they look at- do you have an available trained workforce? That's a discouragement, but I see people are catching on and we tried to catch up, because the industry coming here, they need to know they have dependable people that will show up to work and that can learn the tasks that set before them. Man, the saddest thing of course is the drug use, you know, this has devastated so many of our people. But I always, you know, have been trying to get folks into treatment and things of that nature, I'm involved with things like that, because it devastates life. And as a pastor, you know, I'm doing funerals, and I'm seeing families sitting there devastated. And, man, if we could just look and see the aftermath, that that leaves, it continued to throw families, you know, young children whose father and mother had passed away, it throws them back on grandparents and poverty. That's that breeds poverty, you know, because there's nobody there to pass the baton on. Those are some of the things Brandon, drive me. You know, that I'm working with, like places like, like Coalfield (Development) and like, like Workforce West Virginia, and opportunities to get young men and young women is not enough to sit and point fingers at folk who are on the streets or are perhaps not doing, not successful. And just point your finger at them and talk about them and then drive them by and not willing to do anything. If we would take time, Brandon, to look at their lives. Some of these children are raising themselves because of the drug epidemic that exists in our society today. It's not like they have a structured family where mom and dad is there. You know, some of it may be a fault of a choice that somebody has made, but still all these children don't have a choice. They're thrown in that environment. And they learn, they're surviving. They're, they're not they're not being necessarily raised or taken care of. Because the parents have have issues with with addiction and substance use disorder. So it's, we got to look at this thing deeper and with a heart of trying to help as opposed to, you know, trying to kick somebody that's down. The problems exist, and they're horrible. But what can we do to help raise somebody up? I think that's, that's my, usually my pitch brand. That's where I'm trying to go, what can I do to hit the matter? Because the matter already exists, so I want to help in any way I can.
Brandon Dennison:You make a really good point there. And especially, you know, it's easy to point fingers and say - Well, why can't they do this? Why don't you know, they do that? And I do, I think sometimes there's not a full enough understanding of all the different barriers that folks are facing, and we've got to tear down those barriers, and racism is one of them. And I do wonder you mentioned experience with that, you know, in the 60s. I think some folks, you know, feel like we've...the term post racial, you know, in America has been used. But clearly, I think we know with a situation like George Floyd and others, you know, racism persists. And I'm curious, from your perspective, have you seen equality and equity issues get better or get worse or stay the same? When it comes to the race, race barrier, have you seen progress or not?
Bishop Charles Shaw:The progress I have seen, is minimal and it's not enough. We as a as a country, and I'm an American, I love my country and glad that I'm where I am, but we had a legal slavery for over 200 some years in our society, and you would call it implicit caused it was open and blatant because it was in the Constitution. It was legal when a person is not considered a full man or a woman or a human being, or three fifths of a human being or whatever. And we've had that condoned by society. But then thank God the law was passed, where now slavery should be no more. But there was nothing really done to those folks. You know, who, who had came here whether on the ships, etc. and were treated as slaves. When you, when you change it on the books, there was nothing done to change it in the minds of people. You know, and those folks were just left there without a home. They didn't have parents to lead them, you know a property to start on. They didn't have parents to not only leave them something, they didn't have parents there, they could teach them culturally, you know, how this industry works. Like my family, I can I thank God, my wife is a educator, she's got a master's degree in education. I had a high school and I got an associate degree in theology now. But I went to school after high school, but at least I could be here and my kids, they could least know something about what happens out there in the industry. But you take these kids who have, perhaps not to say a single parent, but do not have that structure. They don't know what goes on out there, what's required, you know, they miss in a step. So don't, they don't understand how important it is to be to work on time. You know, they don't understand how important it is to do what's required, as opposed to doing the minimal amount, you know. It's a lot of things that's missing out, Brandon, on life in general. But I've watched you, I've seen you hire some people and ordinary things, problems that these people have, sometimes, most employers, it's just easy, and they will just fire them or you know, they will, they will no longer employ them. And I've watched you, I've seen you go beyond the pale, and do things for people to help people maintain their living so they could work. Even getting a place to live so they could still show up to work. I've watched you do stuff. And man, I'll be proud of you for things I've seen you do as a, as a entrepreneur and a business owner, Brandon. And it's things like that, I believe that we as a, as a whole have to look at if we really want to help the situation, and not just point fingers at it. Right?
Brandon Dennison:I agree with that. And I think we're learning as an organization, you know, it's not just enough to say, well, we're, you know, for diversity, or we're for opportunity, you know. Really trying to learn how to be anti-racist. If you see a system that has racism in it, you really got to take that apart and build it back up to be anti-racis and to be fair. And ultimately, that's better for all of us, no matter the color of our skin, if Appalachia is ever going to be the great place that we know Appalachia can be, we need to have a vibrant, diverse community where nobody faces a barrier because of the color of their skin. So it's part and parcel of the vision. And you've taught me a lot on these issues, whether you know it or not, just from listening to you, and spending time with you, and I really appreciate it.
Bishop Charles Shaw:Well, I appreciate it Brandon, appreciate the experience. And I've learned a lot from you. And, man, I think we, we as a people, I don't think God blesses us and raises us up, just so that we can be up on a pedestal higher than the classes coming in to look down at them and throw stones at them and put barriers in the way. But I believe it's our responsibility to really be a hand reaching out the help somebody, giving them instruction directions, and open someone to doors, inviting them in - some of the doors that we have gotten into. You know, we haven't gotten here by ourselves. You know, I thank God for everything that he's blessed me to do. He's blessed me to do things. Well (being a) pastor number one, that's one thing being a pastor of a vibrant congregation. And then even to be on the city council in the city of Huntington, be a city council person. Those doors opened for me, you know, because of some things I've done, but it goes back to me knowing and understanding that I'm on city council because I'm gonna help somebody else. I'm gonna show somebody else that it's possible, you know, and carry to others that yeah, you can do more than you think you can. So life is like that. And that's what I've always tried to do, Brandon.
Brandon Dennison:Well, to wrap this up, the name of the podcast is Gumption, Grit and Grace and it's amazing to hear your your life story. And I think you really embody those values. The story when you had the janitorial job and you knew you were qualified for a bigger job than that but kept getting passed over the fact that you didn't just sort of complain about that. But you had the gumption to go forward and say: Hey, I'm qualified for this job. And I want that opportunity. That's the essence of gumption and just the work ethic that you've shown. On grit, certainly just overcoming so many challenges, and I think of your mother for grit, too, you know, husband passing away too young and raising 13 kids in a small house like that and staying faithful and positive. And that's and that's really where the grace comes in, I think for challenges and the barriers that have had to been overcome. You could understand if maybe you were you were more angry or bitter or resentful, but no, you stayed positive, you stayed hopeful. You keep focused on continuing to help others. And I just I find your leadership and your example to be truly inspiring.
Bishop Charles Shaw:Brandon, I most certainly appreciate that and, and man you are, you're a great piece into my life and I just appreciate God bringing us together to be able to accomplish some things and work through things together. And I look forward to doing a lot more before so.
Brandon Dennison:Absolutely. Thank you, sir. And happy Thanksgiving.
Bishop Charles Shaw:Happy Thanksgiving to you. God bless you. Gumption, Grit and Grace is a podcast by Coalfield Development produced at the West Edge Factory in Huntington, West Virginia. This episode was hosted by myself Brandon Dennison, and was produced and edited by JJN Multimedia. Become a part of our mission to rebuild the Appalachian economy from the ground up by going to our website Coalfield-Development.org. Please consider making a donation to advance our mission. You can email us anytime at info@Coalfield-Development.org. You can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn as well check back every two weeks for new episodes and learn how we're rebuilding the Appalachian economy from the ground up.