Debbie Phillips

This week we have a conversation with  Debbie Phillips.
Debbie is a former House member in Ohio and currently the CEO of Rural Action.  As a House member, she served on the House Finance Committee, House Education Committee, House Agriculture & Rural Development Committee, the Joint Legislative Ethics Commission and the Joint Committee on Agency Rule Review. She also previously served as a member of Athens City Council. She was the founding Executive Director of the Ohio Fair Schools Campaign, which was hosted through Rural Action and worked to promote quality public education. 
Debbie’s core purpose is to help connect people to a sense of agency and joy. 

Transcript

Brandon Dennison: 0:11

This is Change in the Coalfields, a podcast by Coalfield Development, all about change in Appalachia. What change has happened, what change is happening and what change still needs to happe? I'm your host, Brandon Dennison, founder and CEO of Coalfield Development. I'm so excited this week to have Debbie Phillips. Debbie is the executive director of Rural Action, headquartered in Southeast Ohio. Debbie is an amazing person, we are colleagues on the Central Appalachian Network Steering Committee, or CAN for short, and I've gotten to work, do a lot of work with Debbie and just really come to understand what an insightful and passionate and smart leader Debbie is. So Debbie, thank you for being on the podcast.

Debbie Phillips: 0:54

Thank you, Brandon, it's really a joy to spend some time with you.

Brandon Dennison: 0:57

Yeah, this is an excuse for us to have a conversation outside of a business meeting. So it's, it's fun. Tell us a little bit about yourself, maybe where you grew up?

Debbie Phillips: 1:06

Sure. I actually grew up in the Columbus, Ohio area, so not directly in Appalachia and I came to Athens in southeastern Ohio to go to school at Ohio University, and just fell in love with these hills, and have pretty much been here since. I really wanted to find a way to be able to make a life here. Of places that I've traveled. What I find here in this region is a lot of people who are sincere about what they're doing, and really willing to help each other out. And that's just, it's really precious.

Brandon Dennison: 1:42

What did you study at OU?

Debbie Phillips: 1:44

I did a Special Ed Studies degree, which I titled Social Ecology. So some Environmental Studies, some Political Science, really more of like a political organizing focus, just looking at how people get things done. So I've really, I think that a thread that I've seen through my life, and the different things I've done is an interest in helping people connect to a sense of agency in their own lives and ability to work together to affect the policies that affect them.

Brandon Dennison: 2:16

I love that you just created your own program. That's fantastic. So you knew going into college, you were interested in creating a sense of agency in political organizing. What gave you that bug?

Debbie Phillips: 2:29

You know, I've thought about this a lot, kind of where did that come from? And I think looking back, my parents were always involved in things in the community. So it may not have been the same kind of flavor of the stuff that I got interested in, you know, as a teenager and a college student. But you know, my mom would go door to door collecting for the Cancer Society. My parents worked on a lot of school levies, my parents both had a background in journalism, and did PR and communications work. So I worked phone banks, and you know, stuffed envelopes for bulk mailings for school levies, probably starting in middle school. So I think that understanding of the nuts and bolts kind of work that it takes to get the things done that we need in our community was just part of the kind of background that I grew up in.

Brandon Dennison: 3:16

It's interesting with journalism, it's an industry that seen some really tough transitions and changes is that something you've kept your eye on and that your parents have kept you up to speed on?

Debbie Phillips: 3:27

Well, they had their own company doing PR and communications, so not actively working as journalists later in their lives. So I am concerned about what's happening with respect to journalism, as a former legislator, the State House Press Corps, declined tremendously over the time that I served, because a lot of papers don't have a full time staffer who can cover state level policy. So I think people tend to hear news about things that are happening on a global or national scale. And maybe they're lucky enough to have a local outlet that is covering 4H and high school basketball, and like the very, very local things. But it's challenging for folks to stay connected to what's going on in state capitals. And there's a heck of a lot of policy decisions that are that are made there that affect everything from highway construction, to how schools are funded to what's going on with prisons, right? Like they're and utility policy, right? There's a lot that happens at the state level. And it's very hard for people to get information about it. So that decline, I guess made it harder for folks to participate meaningfully and with with full information.

Brandon Dennison: 4:35

So when we're not informed, it's easy to slip stuff by us, right.

Debbie Phillips: 4:39

Yeah and, you know, people may be like the way social media tends to work, people get more information about the things they're already interested in. So maybe you sign up for an email list or some kind of communication about the issues that you're interested in. And they say, 'Oh, you know, contact your legislator and tell them Vote for this thing or against that thing.' But legislation is complex. And there's usually a whole lot going on in a particular bill, not just the one thing that that organization is interested in. So getting full information about what's going on so that people participate and speak really for themselves, rather than just clicking a button that says, support this or oppose that. Right? It's, it takes more time than most people have to, to engage in that space, when we don't have the regular kind of flow of just steady coverage.

Brandon Dennison: 5:34

Were you involved in some issues as as a student? Or did that really did the organizing really take off once you finished your studies?

Debbie Phillips: 5:42

I have been involved in the nonprofit sector and in community organizing on a lot of different issues definitely, while I was still a student. I worked for the Appalachian Peace and Justice Network when I was still in school, and did peer mediation and conflict management training in schools. And we also did organizing on issues that our members were concerned about, school funding being one of those in terms of opportunity for kids, but also in terms of tax fairness, and the way we fund abroad social good, like education. I think one of the things that has happened over the last 20ish years, there's been an effort to get people to think about education as like something that you're getting for your own child, as opposed to thinking about how much I benefit if my neighbor's children are educated. Right. So that concept of a broad social good that we all support, because it's good for all of us...

Brandon Dennison: 6:35

As opposed to a private good.

Debbie Phillips: 6:37

Correct. Yeah. So that's an issue that I got involved in pretty early on. And that work over several different organizational homes evolved into I created a statewide nonprofit, organized folks from across the state to work on school funding equity. We had a lot of teachers who would teach their students how it worked, and then bring kids to the statehouse, to advocate for themselves and their peers. And we also worked with a lot of like parents and some of the faith-based community organizing groups on school funding as an economic justice issue.

Brandon Dennison: 7:10

What did the kids think of the big house?

Debbie Phillips: 7:12

One thing that was great is that we had rural and urban kids working together. And they would visit one another and have an opportunity to talk about the things that this system, how it affected them in ways that were similar, even though they were living in very different communities. So first of all, that was really powerful, like getting these kids together and find where they had things in common and reduce some of the 'othering' that can happen.

Brandon Dennison: 7:37

Our country needs that times a million.

Debbie Phillips: 7:40

Yeah, I loved that work. And then yeah, certainly when they got off the bus, there'd be a lot of people who were just looking up at the tall buildings, and you know, looking around, they just did such a great job. I remember one girl, she was 15. She was from Western Washington County, and she was speaking about the loss of all the elective classes in her school district. And the fact that the money they were losing to these online charter schools, most of which performed pretty poorly academically, was pretty similar to the amount of money that her district was having to cut and thereby creating the loss of the the elective classes. And one of the legislators was really awful to her. He just it was like he was cross examining a hostile witness or something. He just was really coming at her. And she did great. She was like,'Well, I can get that information for you,' and yeah she just she stayed calm and responded to him. And it just was so cool to see a 15 year old speaking from her own experience, staying clear in her ability to speak for herself and not get intimidated by these guys, which was part of the reason I decided to run then, right? Seeing a legislator who would treat a 15 year old like that, like we should all be doing cartwheels if there's a 15 year old who has the guts to step up and talk to legislators, regardless of like, what their advocacy position is just the fact that they can do that is so cool.

Brandon Dennison: 9:03

So what are some other things that made you want to run?

Debbie Phillips: 9:06

Somewhere along the way I was asked to run for City Council here in Athens and to me that felt like a way to give something back to my community. It is very day to day nuts and bolts kind of decision making. And after I was elected to City Council, I was contacted by someone who worked for OPSI, which is the in Ohio, the public school employees who are not teachers. So the bus drivers and custodial staff and those folks, encouraged me to go to a training led by Emily's List in the political opportunity program. He informed me that they were always looking for folks on the farm team and I was like, 'What farm team?'

Brandon Dennison: 9:46

What is the farm team?

Debbie Phillips: 9:48

That training was really eye opening and one thing that was that really stuck with me is that you know, Emily's List works to get pro-choice Democratic women elected to the U.S. Senate, that like the core mission, but then they have started to work in other spaces as well. And one of the things that that struck me is that a lot of times women don't run for office unless they're asked, which had been my experience, right? Like, women do a lot of leadership, but it tends to be the bridging background organizing work that happens, a lot of support work, and rarely, like, step up and out in front like, no, actually, it should be me, you know, like, that's it. Maybe that's changing. I think it probably is changing some, but often it's the case that somebody asks a woman to consider running for office rather than just kind of generally working for the issues that they believe in. So yeah, those nudges were helpful.

Brandon Dennison: 10:43

So tell us tell us your political trajectory.

Debbie Phillips: 10:46

When I ran for the House, I was challenging a popular incumbent who had some bipartisan support. My district is actually really competitive, which is rare, with all the gerrymandering that goes on, I came really close. I lost by 614 votes, I think.

Brandon Dennison: 11:02

Out of thousands.

Debbie Phillips: 11:04

Yeah, yeah, it was a race that was too close to call on election night, right? So that was one of those. I loved the chance to get out and talk to people like you can in a state legislative race, you can knock on enough doors to make a big difference in the race, it is not all paid media and consultants and stuff like that. And just going door to door and asking people like what is on their mind, and what's important to them what we need in our communities, that was really heartening. It's easy to get cynical about people's lack of involvement in public processes. But mostly people are just really busy. You know, people are working and taking care of their families. And they're under a lot of pressure. But when I showed up to talk to folks, they really, lots and lots of people care deeply and are thinking very well about what we need in our communities, and still willing to trust that somebody might want to listen to them. Like in, in a culture that has, I think, done a lot to create cynicism, I still found a lot of people who were willing to engage in a real conversation and try to be involved. I really enjoyed that. I challenged a Republican who had labor support, right? Because he supported prevailing wage, so he had support from the crafts and trades, which is rare, right? In this political climate, and when he then chose to run for the Senate, I ran again, the next year and won. It also was really close. It just is a really tightly contested district. But as a result, I think we tend to get legislators of either party who do listen more to the community. Like there's something you know, I think sometimes when you think about what we need to improve the political system, it sounds like really boring, high school civics class stuff, right? We need redistricting reform, and, you know, opportunities for lines to be drawn in ways that are consistent with the jurisdictions and the, you know, the cities, the counties, the townships that we live in, so that they are more competitive.

Brandon Dennison: 13:01

To your point about sort of, I think complexity and the lack of information gets used against the majority of people who don't have time to understand all these ins and outs. And you make a great point there that gerrymandering can hold so much in place that even really great campaigns ultimately can't overcome, right? I mean...

Debbie Phillips: 13:23

A lot of districts are not competitive and so the real battle happens in the primary, and you end up with people in both parties who are at the extremes, and most people are a lot closer to the center. And they actually want to work with people who want to work for solutions, right? So I loved my time in office. And there were some things I was able to get done in there that make a difference for people. We were able to get a provision added that schools can't charge kids for the things they need to be able to do their their activities if they are eligible for free lunch. So the the fees that families get charged for spelling workbooks and art supplies and whatever free lunch, kids can't get charged for that. Or if they're going into one of the tech programs, like they're going to be a cosmetologist, some of those kids are getting charged, like 500 bucks for the tools and the tests that they have to take. I mean, imagine if you're 15 years old, you know, that's a barrier. So

Brandon Dennison: 14:21

Oh, absolutely.

Debbie Phillips: 14:21

So I was delighted to have the opportunity to work on something like that. But I'm so happy to be working with organizations doing community development, because it's so much more focused on solutions and people trying to find a way to say yes, instead of kind of going head to head on everything.

Brandon Dennison: 14:39

Yeah. So talk a little bit about your shift from public service to Executive Director. Did you go straight from elected office to Executive Director or was there some transition time there?

Debbie Phillips: 14:50

Yeah, we have term limits in Ohio. So I was termed out and I had worked at Rural Action previously on some education related issues. So when I was termed out I was in conversation with my predecessor, Michelle Decker, our former CEO, and I came on board as our Development Director to help just raise resources to support the work, she then decided to look for a job and it's working for a community foundation in California, she wanted to be closer to her dad, then I moved up into the CEO role, which is really just an incredible privilege, I get to work with people who are like living their purpose, like our, our program staff, you can feel the depth of their passion and their expertise in the work that they're doing. And it's, it's really exciting to be with a group of people who are finding solutions in a lot of different areas.

Brandon Dennison: 15:43

I do think sometimes the cynicism, which may or may not be there, to your point, some, it's unfair to just the point you made about talking with voters. But there is a sense that, you know, folks want certain things to be different, but maybe don't know where to start. And it does it, you know, running for office, obviously, is daunting, but even being involved in the political process, it's gotten so ugly, you know, like a person could be forgiven for not wanting to, like, dive into that with their very, you know, limited free time. Tell us about Rural Action, just as an organization, what your goals are, and then why is it that community organizations, nonprofit organizations are so good at that solutions piece?

Debbie Phillips: 16:24

Well, we work mostly in the Appalachian counties of Ohio. So we're all southeastern Ohio, and we do asset based community development, there are a lot of different program areas in which we work. But that is the thread that ties them together, instead of looking at all the problems, we really try to look around and see what we have that has value that we can build from to create opportunities that are really rooted in our communities and in our homes. And, you know, likely to stay here, you know, the the region has this long history of extractive industry. And, I think, Helen Lewis described Appalachia as an internal colony to the rest of the United States, where a lot of the natural resources and a lot of the labor has left the region, and therefore a lot of the wealth has left the region, instead, taking that asset based lens and seeing what we can build for ourselves in our communities that will be able to, like take root and, and really thrive here. So that's, that's the core through all of the work. And we do work with sustainable agriculture, forestry, clean energy, waste reduction, watershed restoration, and we're working in a bunch of different areas. But it really is around that core of how do we build from what we have to create opportunities?

Brandon Dennison: 17:42

Sometimes with philanthropy or public programs, it really can't be deficit based, right? It's like, we have to explain how we have the most problems to justify getting money, you know, to help overcome our problems, which is not totally irrational, but it can be disempowering. So right back to your point about agency, when it's about our assets, we have so much to offer. This is a beautiful place, let's take care of it. Let's build wealth in a way that honors this place and is good for our people and keeps wealth here that that that's got to be why Rural Action is such a good problem solver and why you're able to really genuinely connect with your constituents.

Debbie Phillips: 18:24

Yeah, I think so. And it's not like there aren't problems. We know that right. I mean, this is why we're out here doing the work because, things could be better. You know, I mentioned watershed restoration as an area that we've done work for decades. And that work in this area, we have focused on acid mine drainage remediation, mining that occurred before there were regulations in 1977, the companies that that mined coal could them walk away and leave a mess behind. There are a lot of mines here that are discharging water, so groundwater fills in the old mine cavities and they're discharging water that's highly acidic, it mobilizes a lot of metals. And it kills all life in the stream. So anybody from around here has seen streams that run orange, right? So a lot of the remediation is it's very intensive work to either move stream channels, so they don't drop into an abandoned mine or like route around that or install active treatment systems like limestone dozers that correct the pH balance of the water so that bugs and fish can live in the streams, again and improve water quality. So we've done a lot of that work. I think one of the ODNR officials described Monday Creek as being dead as a bag of hammers at one point and now I think there's like 36 species of fish that are living in that stream. It's a lot of work by a lot of people over decades. There's one acid mine drainage discharge in Athens County where I live. That is so big, nobody's known what to do with it, right? It's a million gallons a day of highly acidic water and it kills the last seven miles of Sunday Creek. Our Watershed team has worked with a couple professors at Ohio University over about the last 12 years to come up with an innovative approach to treat this seat. And they're actually working on a process to precipitate the iron oxide out of the water and sell that as a commodity for paint, pigment and other industrial uses. So we formed an LLC called True Pigments, we raised private money to buy the land, we're now the proud owners of the worst acid mine drainage scenes in the state of Ohio.

Brandon Dennison: 20:37

Congrats!

Debbie Phillips: 20:39

And we're working on it's about an $8 million project to build this full scale treatment plant that is going to make money by cleaning up the stream and will then have money to reinvest in other watershed restoration. So the people who are listening at home won't be able to see if I went and showed you the paint that's over there on my desk. But we partnered with Gamblin Artists paints, they've done a limited edition run of some artists paints made with the iron oxide from our acid mine drainage scene.

Brandon Dennison: 21:09

Talk about a, it's like a redemption story. That is, that is beautiful.

Debbie Phillips: 21:13

But that's kind of flipping the narrative, right? So you could just be like, 'Oh, the streams are dead, this is awful, we have this mess to clean up.' But instead, the U.S. has a huge iron oxide market imports most of it from China, this one plant is going to be about one half of 1% of the U.S. iron oxide supply. So it'll be domestically produced, you know, from a natural source, it's going to be restoring this stream, there are drinking water systems downstream that will not have to, you know, filter all this stuff out of the water. So it's going to be good for our communities and save money and hopefully improve health as well. So just finding a way to think of things differently and figure out where there's an opportunity.

Brandon Dennison: 21:53

So you run this amazing organization, you lead the team, leading an organization too, it's like to say that one person runs at all is is not actually the right way to think about it, and your style of leadership helps me catch that. So I appreciate just learning from you and how you lead Debbie. You've been in public office, you've been an organizer. And you've also have a family of your own that you take care of as well. Right?

Debbie Phillips: 22:16

I've got two kids, they are adults. So they're, they're doing all right. But this past year has definitely slowed everything down. So both of them are living at home, slowly getting out and working more again. But yeah, it's just been a very interesting process.

Brandon Dennison: 22:34

And you take care of a family of horses as well?

Debbie Phillips: 22:37

Yeah, I have about 10 acres, and we've got horses and goats and chickens and ducks and cats and dogs. And it's really like when I was in office, the horses, I refer to them. It's like my antidote to everything, like actually coming home, after doing really intense intellectual work and being in spaces that could be very contentious, to just do some physical labor, and completely change the pace, it's been really good for me to have that kind of balance.

Brandon Dennison: 23:04

Well, I always like to ask all of our guests, you know about some of the big changes that you've seen in Appalachia, in your time working on these issues and then what are some big changes that you still hope to see or feel like we still really need to see?

Debbie Phillips: 23:18

As far as changes that I've seen in the region? You know, we're still seeing loss of jobs in the coal sector. That's something that's been like a long, slow trend, you know, faster in some places, but like, we're still seeing that. And I think one shift that I've seen is there's more understanding about economic diversification and trying to change the way we think about economic development. Historically, I think economic developers were trying to attract like one big plant, right, and using different tools like tax abatements or incentives to try to get someone to locate here. And, I think there still are some efforts in that direction. But there's more understanding of the fact that we need diversity and we need to grow things here. So in Southeast Ohio, Ohio University has been involved in tech transfer where like research that has happened at the university has been used to develop related businesses and we have some sector development around some high tech things that you might not think of as something you'd find in Appalachia. So there was a professor at Ohio University that did a lot of research around Free-Piston Stirling Engines. So very high efficiency engines, there is a research project underway with NASA about using these to power deep space missions because it can reduce how much plutonium they need to use. And this technology has been used by a company called Global Cooling which became Sterling Ultra Cold that does super low temperature cooling, which became very important in the last year because of the need to have very low temperature cooling for the vaccines for COVID. You know, I think finding ways that we again look at the assets that we have and build from that. So some of these companies have really grown and found ways to be connected in the world. And it's not what people typically think of when they think of Appalachia, they think just about that coal mining history, there are some other really interesting things happening, that are creating opportunity for people in our region.

Brandon Dennison: 25:21

We are much more than one thing so much more than one thing. Well, Debbie, I honestly I just admire your leadership and the the life that you've led and the way that you lead it. And I'm honored to get to work with you. And I appreciate your time today. And the title is Change in the Coalfields. And I mean, you've been a part of a lot of it, you've led a lot of it, you've pushed a lot of it. We're still trying to figure out a lot of it together. And so I could not think of a more perfect guest for the podcast and just really appreciate your time today.

Debbie Phillips: 25:51

Well, Brandon, I really appreciate you, your leadership, your creativity in that space and your commitment to really working closely with people as you pursue an employment based model of development. It's really smart. I learn from you every time we have the opportunity to spend some time together and I'm grateful for that. Thank you.

Brandon Dennison: 26:21

Change in the Coalfields is a podcast created by Coalfield Development at the West Edge Factory in Huntington, West Virginia. This episode was hosted by Brandon Dennison and produced an edited by JJN Multimedia. Become a part of our mission to rebuild the Appalachian economy by going to our website, coalfield-developemnt.org to make a donation. You can email us anytime at info@coalfield-development.org and subscribe to our newsletter for up to date information on the podcast. You can follow us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn by searching for Coalfield Development. Check back soon for more episodes.