This is Change in the Coalfields. My name is Brandon Dennison, I'm your host, and I'm so happy to have Sandra Mikesh with us for this episode, Sandra has been a instrumental leader throughout Central Appalachia, for many years. And she also is a good friend and just works with wisdom and compassion and insight. And Sandra, thank you for being here.
Sandra Mikush:Oh I am happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
Brandon Dennison:So when our paths crossed you were you were with the Mary Reynolds Babcock foundation. I'm curious to sort of go back in time and hear how it is that you wound up there.
Sandra Mikush:Okay, sure. I don't know how far back you want to go. But I was there for 25 years. So I spent the bulk of my career there starting in 1992. And before that, I had a career with nonprofits, mostly in fundraising development. And so I met Bill Bondurant who was then Executive Director of the Babcock foundation at a luncheon and actually, I was terribly sick, but I decided to go anyway ended up sitting next to him. And he told me he was looking for a number two person at the foundation, and we just hit it off and started talking. And that's really the way foundation the foundation world worked then it was kind of a good old boys network that I kind of broke into as a woman. But you know, I kind of lucked into a job that ended up being just a perfect fit for me and a passion for me. So I had been, in doing fundraising with foundations, I tried to help connect people to foundation grants, and then I ended up getting to be on the other side of that desk.
Brandon Dennison:Gotcha. So in the Babcock foundation is based in North Carolina, for those that don't know, did you grow up in North Carolina?
Sandra Mikush:I did. But I grew up a lot of other places, too. I spent my first 10 years in North Carolina, and both my parents were from North Carolina. But then I lived in South Carolina, Texas and New Jersey, before coming back to college in North Carolina, and then raised my children in North Carolina. So North Carolina is home. But I like the fact that I spent a lot of time away from North Carolina, and away from the south actually gave me some perspective. But I'm definitely North Carolinian by birth.
Brandon Dennison:And did you move around because of your parents work?
Sandra Mikush:Yeah, um, my dad was, was in higher ed. He was a professor and then an administrator. And so he moved around, and both my parents were Methodist preacher's kids, and back then less so now they moved every four years or so. I think my grandmother used to tell stories, they would just listen on the radio to find out where my grandfather's would be assigned. And then if they were moving, they would just start packing while we went on to...
Brandon Dennison:That's a requirement. Is that right? In the Methodist Church? You have to you can't stay any one church too long.
Sandra Mikush:Right. Right. Right, less so now because they deal with multiple, you know, jobs with couples and that kind of thing. So it's not quite as bad or good or whatever as it used to be.
Brandon Dennison:Rigid? Maybe.
Sandra Mikush:Yeah. But my parents, I think between them, they had probably 15 or 16 hometowns growing up.
Brandon Dennison:So looking back, you're glad you live different places, but at the time, was that difficult?
Sandra Mikush:You know, it wasn't hard, because I think they grew up with that being a positive experience. They just collected friends everywhere they went, and, you know, my mom's still living, and she still has friends from every station in her life as a child and an adult. And that was just their approach. And I remember the biggest move was, well, two biggest ones. I moved from South Carolina to Texas right before I started high school, the summer before high school. And then I moved in the middle of my junior year from Texas to New Jersey. And in both cases, those were really big cultural shifts, not just you know, geographic and it but it was, you know, my my family just embraced the change and saw it as an exciting adventure. So that's, that's what we did. And I kind of surprised myself staying in one place so long in North Carolina, raised my children had all my children living in Durham and then moved to Winston Salem, when I took the job at Babcock. So they spent, you know, I was there for 25 years, which surprised me, but it was wonderful.
Brandon Dennison:I mean, you've you've committed your life to philanthropy, community development, positive change in Appalachia and in the south more generally, what has kept you going? I mean, 25 years in this day and age to 25 years with one organization is a very rare thing. I feel like in the way that the job force works now what, what, what kept you going and so committed like that for the long haul?
Sandra Mikush:I think there was just a deep connection between me personally and the foundation's core values and mission. And I don't know that I appreciated that when I took the job. In fact, I turned it down. At first, I had three little kids all under six. And I just couldn't imagine uprooting my life. And my husband had finally finished graduate school and had a job and, you know, basically just uprooted the family to do it. And so but something made me just think this just felt right. And, and it was, and Bill, who hired me left, just within a year of when I joined. And so I had a momentary pause about whether this was the right thing. But then Gail Williams came and as Executive Director, she was just, she really helped take a very willing board to new levels. And it was just, it was an amazing team between Gail Williams and Gladys Washington and me, at first, and then of course, we grew. But the three of us just bonded and just, I think the we came of age as the next generation of leadership of a Family Foundation came of age. And there was just such commitment to addressing deep issues of racism and poverty across the south, and Appalachia. And I think that resonated I've got a strong sense of justice, always have. I used to joke that it is because I'm a middle child. I just...
Brandon Dennison:We share that in common.
Sandra Mikush:And I think, actually, to carry that a little further, I think the job as a foundation program officer, or as we called ourselves, network officers, was really to understand deeply the work in communities and then interpret that for our board. So that they understood how it fit into the long term strategy of the foundation, so I was kind of an intermediary. That's how I always saw myself and saw myself in service to the folks on the ground doing this work. I really appreciated Babcock's deep commitment to Grassroots Leadership and grassroots development and community development. And that, again, it resonated with my deep sense of justice, and it was just a privilege to do that kind of work.
Brandon Dennison:So the middle child, Methodist pastors on both sides, what that sense of justice is, it was just sort of, in your DNA. I mean, were you almost born with that?
Sandra Mikush:Probably. You know, and, and, you know, it was maybe a naive sense of justice, growing up as kind of a middle class white woman in the South, in the 60s and 70s. And then I, my sense of it deepened, greatly working with grassroots folks throughout the south and Appalachia for 25 years. So I, I think there was a sense there, but it was pretty narrow in scope. And I think it grew a lot as I was exposed to more just more analysis of, you know, what the issues are and what it's going to take to change those.
Brandon Dennison:Two words you've said that really struck me, understanding and analysis. I feel like when it comes to things like poverty, economic development, Appalachia, the South that a lot of assumptions. A lot of solutions are formed based off assumptions. And there are so many more layers of,'Hey, what's going on here?' And you and Babcock better than really any other foundation that I have encountered work on that analysis and that understanding that had to be intentional, right? A commitment to a certain approach.
Sandra Mikush:Right? Right. Well, my, my work in Appalachia really took off in, like around 2005, or so I think we made a shift around then to, I made a reference to the fact that we became network officers, we began to really be committed to the notion at the foundation that we needed to understand places to really develop an analysis with the help the folks in those places to understand what difference we could help make. And we were generalists in terms of the type of work so we didn't, we, in most foundations, they were program officers around a particular program area, you know, early childhood or community development or whatever. And it didn't make sense to us that communities worked that way. It made more sense that communities work based on what their assets are, and what their challenges are, and their own analysis. And we really deeply believe that folks closest to the ground and closest to the issues affecting them, really had the wisdom to provide the solutions, and that we could help facilitate that. And so we shifted to divide up our region into either states or regions that made sense. And in Appalachia, it hung together as a region, it didn't make sense to just work in West Virginia, or just work in eastern Kentucky, or just work in southwest Virginia, etc. So I had the, the good fortune of being kind of assigned, or I'm sure I could have asked for it to work in the Appalachian region. And I continue to do some work in North Carolina as well. And then Gladys was more active in the in South Carolina and Alabama, and then that grew. So as we grew, we had more people with deeper knowledge of particular places. But that really helped me at my job, was to go in and listen and learn. And, and the best way to do that was to start with the people we knew the organizations we had deep relationships with, or long term relationships with, and then find new people. So, you know, I must admit that my and therefore, our analysis at Babcock was very much drawn from long standing partners like Mountain Association, and KFDC in Kentucky. You know, and, and then finding new folks, like you, you know, I think that I remember, when we I don't wanna jump ahead too far. But when we met, and I kind of made the case for a grant to Coalfield. You didn't have much of a track record yet.
Brandon Dennison:We had no track record.
Sandra Mikush:And it was right there in our guidelines that you needed to track record. But I made a case. And I remember one of our board members said, 'I think I hear that you're just wanting us to make a bet on this young leader and this young organization.' I said, 'Yeah, that's pretty much it. I believe in him.'
Brandon Dennison:Thank you for that. I felt it and that, to know that you're genuinely sincerely believed in by someone who has a track record and is respected in the field. I mean, that counts for a lot. And that's actually part of what I try to pay forward at Coalfield with our crew members, I want them to really know someone believes in them. We're not just giving a pep talk, we really, really do believe in them. It really matters. 2005, so coal was sort of having an uptick there in the middle of the first Bush administration. I'm curious. What changes have you seen in in Appalachia? Maybe some you've expected some that surprised you? How is this place different now than it was when you started?
Sandra Mikush:Well, you know, it's interesting, one easy way to kind of quickly talk about the change is to talk about the change in the the ads I saw on the side of the road. You know, when I first started going to Appalachia, I saw billboards, you know, coal it keep the lights on, you know, just very upbeat support of coal um, and then...
Brandon Dennison:On the radio, there's, 'Coal is West Virginia.'
Sandra Mikush:And, you know, and it's kind of what I expected my husband's mother grew up in Beckley so, and her dad ran a block company that supported the mines with concrete blocks. And so I had kind of known of the early rise and fall of coal, when it, in its heyday, when she was a child, and then...
Brandon Dennison:Sort of coming out of World War II, fueling the industrial boom, yep.
Sandra Mikush:Exactly. And then her, her brother took over the company and then had to take it had to close the business, because the deep mines just went away, that they were servicing. And, or at least, there was not enough business there. And so her whole family moved to Florida, which is probably not unlike a lot of folks that that were able to do that or chose to do that. But in any case, that I had that sense of how important coal was kind of culturally, as well as for employment. But I also knew from our support for a lot of environmental organizations, that it was devastating, as well. So a lot of the work we were supporting early on was related to concerns about mountaintop removal, mining and the impact on communities. So that's what I knew early on. Coal was booming, and it was a threat to clean water.
Brandon Dennison:Entire streams were disappearing, and water was running black, drinking water.
Sandra Mikush:Right, right. And so when we went to communities and listened, and they said, you know, our, you know, stand over here, there's gonna be a blast that you'll, you'll hear soon, you know, or feel. And so we were able to kind of understand that pretty deeply. And then within, I don't know, five years or so, or even less. And it probably coincided with the Obama administration, I started seeing much different billboards. And it was, you know, first clean, beautiful coal, and then it was, Obama don't take our coal jobs.
Brandon Dennison:War on coal.
Sandra Mikush:And, and then it was kind of an us versus them for a while, it seemed like a lot of the community organizations who were really who were in the coal fields, and had were affected, adversely affected, but also dependent on those jobs. They were caught in the middle. And, you know, we were kind of challenged with how do you support environmental sustainability and community assets like land and water and health, but at the same time, pay attention to what the economy is doing. And so then, we were also influenced by a lot of the community development organizations, and particularly the committee development, financial institutions that were really investing in entrepreneurship and building alternatives to coal employment, and really building wealth. And I think the analysis that was emerging among the folks we were in relationship with, was that there needed to be a transition to an economy that was sustainable. That was, you know, they invested in people, and allowed people to build wealth and build businesses and kind of a homegrown economy and asset based development. And so a lot of the work in that time was really around that. And, and then, but it was still contentious, you know, that kind of war on coal mentality was still there. And then, probably, around the, you know, 2011 2012 it shifted again, and that's when there just seemed to be such an interest and a, an urgent need for economic opportunity.
Brandon Dennison:Felt like the bottom was falling out. I mean, it's just, it was like a Great Depression type feeling situation.
Sandra Mikush:Exactly. And, and I think the, the work that had been done over the years, in particularly in community development, that really understood these tensions, but had begun to put in place some alternatives. I think th, probably the traditional economic leadership didn't really have an alternative in their back pocket.
Brandon Dennison:They didn't.
Sandra Mikush:You know, I remember going to a meeting in in in Charleston once and somebody point blank asked one of the state leaders Here's what the alternative was. And he literally had no answer.
Brandon Dennison:Literally the answer was there is no alternative. Well, and that's, you know, I remember that, that that radio ad, it's like the message literally was coal is West Virginia, you know, I mean, and that as a child growing up, I mean, that's ingrained in you. And so it's the psychological power, there's political economic power of coal, but the psychological cultural powers, is almost unbelievable.
Sandra Mikush:What happened then too which I think was important. And I'm thinking about it a lot now, because I'm working with a group of people to kind of document the story of kind of what happened with the Community Investment ecosystem in Appalachia, over about this time period that we're talking about 10 or 15 years and, and it was just interesting how natural networks emerged, and really started really making a big difference because they were working together and working together across states as well. So the central Appalachian network that I know Coalfield is a part of was probably the first that I was really aware of, although there were there were networks within states, like work going on in Southeast Ohio and in East Kentucky and other places as well. But CAN Central Appalachian Network really began to pull people together, across regionally with kind of not only a common analysis, but also a commitment to working together to make things happen. And then about the same time the Appalachian funders network was coming together, and we were very involved with that at the Babcock foundation. It was at a CAN meeting, actually, that I was there and Mary hunt from Benedum and Ray Daffner from ARC and Wayne Faber, she was then at the Ford Foundation, kind of sat together at a table and said,'Okay, now, what are you doing? And what are you doing? What are you doing? Why are we not kind of coordinating and pay more attention to how we can work together?' And that led to a big meeting? I think it was in 2010. Where we just pulled together a bunch of funders public and private...
Brandon Dennison:Was this in Abington. Okay. Yeah, it's interesting to hear both of your perspectives on how important that Abington meeting was.
Sandra Mikush:Oh, it was big, you know, and, and back to the the idea of kind of people taking sides or having a hard time reconciling this importance of coal and the need to make a transition to something else, and something that was more diversified. And that was a big theme at that first meeting. And we were very deliberate about inviting very diverse folks there. But we also presented this analysis through our grassroots partners, and weren't sure how it was gonna land. But and I won't say everybody said,'Oh, yeah sign me up.' You know, there was a lot of, "I don't know, who are you and exactly what are you trying to do?' But over time, by listening and learning and really learning together, we were able to reach consensuses about kind of the work that we could support together.
Brandon Dennison:And this is what would become the Appalachian Funders Network.
Sandra Mikush:Exactly. Yep.
Brandon Dennison:Which lives on today. Doing very important work and Ashley is right on time. It's probably I was just getting ready to segue towards the second half of the conversation. Hi Ashley.
Ashley Vogel:Hey
Sandra Mikush:Hey
Ashley Vogel:Hey
Sandra Mikush:How are you doing?
Ashley Vogel:I'm good, how are you?
Sandra Mikush:Great I hear you have an anniversary coming up?
Ashley Vogel:Who? Oh my gosh, yeah, coming up.
Sandra Mikush:You, a wedding anniversary.
Brandon Dennison:So huge portions of my life Sandra would not have happened if if not for you planning some trips to West Virginia. So I wanted to do a special podcast for my wedding anniversary because of that and I say a huge portion too, so I'm pretty sure Ashley has our boys, Owen and Will, ages four and two in the background. So if you hear that, that'll just be part of the podcast audio experience.
Sandra Mikush:Good, I hope so.
Brandon Dennison:Ashley also worked at the Mary Reynolds Babcock Foundation. And before we get into how we met, Sandra, you had hit just briefly on how strongly bonded you and Gail and Gladys were. And really, the culture of Babcock was something special. So I'd love to hear from Sandra first, but then also Ashley, on just what the sort of mini community that the staff of the Babcock Foundation had, and what that meant for both of you and your lives.
Sandra Mikush:Well, I'll start, but I would love to hear Ashley's perspective, too. I think the, the fact that Gail and Gladys and I were quite different from our perspectives, but we shared some really deep common values was a real strength. So you know, I grew up as I said, kind of middle class, white woman, the Gail grew up much more working class. And Gladys grew up African American in the South as well, as well as the islands. And so the we brought very different perspectives, we brought very different work experiences. But we all shared not only a deep commitment to the core values that we're working toward, but that we share that with the board of the Babcock Foundation, and we're pushing them, you know, in different ways at the same time, but from a source of strength. So I think we tried to live that out in everything we did, in terms of our culture, and who we hired, how we worked with folks on staff as well as in community. And so, you know, Ashley was an example of someone who we wanted to invest in, and she had a ton of energy and a ton of excitement for the work and really hungry to learn. So we had a culture anyway, of inviting everyone she was in kind of administrative support role. And we thought it was really important that everyone get out in the community and meet the people we were working with to really understand it. And so there was always an open invitation to go with us on site visits and really experience the regions. And Ashley never met a trip she didn't want to take so she agreed to go anywhere and often asked when can we go back to Appalachia, Sandra? So it was really fun to bring her along and hear her perspective on what was going on, as well as share what we were learning. Ashley, what would you add?
Ashley Vogel:Babcock I mean, changed my life in a million ways. And Gail, and Gladys and Sandra and Brandon, you know, like, there isn't a day really that I don't talk about one of them or something that one of them said to me and you know, depending on each of their personalities, you know, the Gladys things are usually a little more colorful, and you know, the Sandra things are very wise and the Gail things are usually very earth related, in one way or another, but just yeah, just changed my life and that that place changed my life. And it was my first job that really was what I wanted to do. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't go to school for anything nonprofit related. So it was kind of a job I fell into and really discovered where my past was led and where you know, like what I wanted to be doing. So I worked at Babcock and got to travel all over the area that we funded, and I would literally go anywhere, like Sandra said and they also supported me and in very local ways. So like, I went up to Duke and did the nonprofit thing and that was something Sandra told me about and I was on some boards and Sandra and others and Jennifer Barksdale, actually too, and she was another woman that worked there, but everything that was going on in my life stemmed from that place and from from the women there and it was just it was really amazing. I mean, I haven't been in anything like it since I left and it was just really a really amazing experience and I'm super grateful for.
Brandon Dennison:So a trip was planned to Williamson I had Sandra, at this point I can't actually well, I can't remember I just put an application out of the blue. I really did not understand you know how it all worked. And I had this idea for deconstruction and the first iteration we called the green collar jobs initiative. And then we sort of scrapped that because in the you know, the politics around green were were pretty complicated. But I remember, the first time I ever heard Ashley's voice, I was working in a Panera in the Huntington area, on this application in the online form wasn't working right. And so I called and Ashley took the call to help me figure out this online application. And then the, that application did not get funded. But something about it. Did you know Sandra, you scheduled a follow up call to learn more. And then you plan this trip. So I have very specific memories of that first trip in Williamson. But I'll start maybe I'll start actually with Ashley and then go to Sandra of details you remember, remember about that first site visit for Coalfield Development that began in Williamson?
Ashley Vogel:Yeah, so we were coming up to see you. And then we went over to, I think Liberty, Kentucky, and they just had like a tornado come through. And if I'm remembering right, I remember we were at the coal house, which I don't even know we were next to the coal house. I just remember that the landmark was the coal house in Williamson, West Virginia. And Eric Mathis was there. And it was you and Chase and your first crew of three guys and it was Andy Endicott who I love and is still at Coldfield, which is adorable. And Josh Snapper, Hariette, yep. And you guys were just doing deconstruction in whatever this building was, and I don't remember this detail, but I would like to have on tape that his podcast, you remember that? Josh, like flung an email at me or something?
Brandon Dennison:Not on, we were all so myself included. We're all so nervous. And so it was painfully awkward. And we're trying to put on our best impression. But Josh is like fiddling with this nail on his fingers. And somehow or other he like shot it through the air at Ashley.
Ashley Vogel:And that's all I remember about that first stuff. And then I remember the board dinner where I got to meet Larry Castle, who I love as well and just had a good meeting with your board.
Brandon Dennison:We has a spaghetti dinner at the Fort Gay Senior Center.
Ashley Vogel:Yeah and you brought wine, and I remember thinking like, are you even old enough to have wine? I remember you had your mom's car. And I noticed because I remember the next day you didn't have your mom's car. And for anyone that knows you that's listening that remembers Bobby Byrd.
Brandon Dennison:Yeah, I was worried my car was not appropriate business professional material. So I borrowed mom's car.
Ashley Vogel:But I just remember, like you and Chase, and just you guys were so young, but you were so energetic. And the thing I always loved so much about the visits that we would go on was that we would just meet all these people that were so hopeful. And you guys especially were you just really seemed to enjoy each other and what you were doing and you know, you loved your home. And it was just a really exciting project. And I remember in retrospect, thinking that, like it was kind of like, this is your life, you know, because I came up here. And saw Wayne and we went met Audie Perry at Heritage farm. You know, of course, I worked out there and we're very close with them. And we met Gail and Pat. And then you know, of course, we're close with them and Phoebe and Gail threw our baby shower, we had our own and it was just kind of like, very exciting. But in retrospect, you know, kind of amazing that everything that I saw and what our life is like now.
Brandon Dennison:How about from your perspective. Sandra, do you remember that first trip?
Sandra Mikush:I do. And I remember different things. It's funny now that, you know, Ashley shares her memories, I remember those things as well. But when you reminded me that we didn't fund the first proposal and then we want to find out more I remember the board was wanting more kind of on the ground, what's happening in local communities, you know. And so whatever your first proposal lacked in terms of track record and readiness, there was something there that matched what I thought the board was looking for. So we often would make really small grants to kind of give folks a chance to prove themselves and in those we could make at staff's discretion, and I don't know if we were looking at that and then ended up you know, kind of taking it to the board. But in any case, we weren't expecting everything to be perfect and well developed. But like Ashley said, I remember a lot of young people and a lot of passion and a lot of really deep expertise among the young people that I was meeting, and I do remember, just the vision of what was going on in the, in Williamson, just trying to in the heart of the coal fields, like it really says on the sign, to really try to do something different. And that was inspiring. Also, mostly remember, thinking this work is so promising, but they don't have a clue about the finances. And I remember working with you, in the basement of that, that building, I didn't remember what it was when we had the spaghetti supper. That that was hard, because I think it looked like the vision and the ideas behind it were really strong. But you know, the finances to make it work were just kind of a wing and a prayer. And um... I remember working with you afterwards.
Brandon Dennison:They were. Like how can we did this often, you know, we would say, okay, how can we help them strengthen this so that we can take something to the board. Because that was often the case, you know, when you you saw something inspirational happen in the grassroots level, you want to help them get to the point where an institution like a foundation can make a make a grant. And often, we knew that other funders looked at us and would be more likely to look favorably on an organization if we had funded them. So we knew that it spoke volumes to make a grant. But we took it very seriously. We didn't want to make a mistake. But I do remember a lot of that hope, vision, youthful energy, and just kind of inspirational vision for what could be. You know, working with with Eric, we were doing deconstruction and then the next day we were doing solar installation for Williamson's first ever rooftop solar system. And yeah, I mean, really, it's almost incredible. You know, that was that would be in 2012, I think, you know, pretty, pretty incredible to think about a solar system that early on in the transition, you know, right deep in the heart of the coal field.
Sandra Mikush:Did we go up on top of the roof? In? Was it 2010? Was that when we were there?
Brandon Dennison:In 20? In 2012? Yep.
Sandra Mikush:Is when we first visited.
Brandon Dennison:Yeah, yeah.
Sandra Mikush:Okay. Okay. Because I remember going up on the roof. I don't know if we did that, at that trip or not. That could have been something with Williamson?
Brandon Dennison:Yeah, you've been a couple of times. Yeah, I remember that, too. I mean, it was it was sort of nerve wracking, but exciting that, you know, if we could get Babcock to believe in us, we knew that would that would be a strong signal. And I remember other little details, too, it was raining. Ashley still has the raincoat, the tan raincoat that that she had on. And so when the site visit was over, you know, I made sure all the work was out of the way but I did say to Ashley, if you're if your back up this way, you know, be sure let me know. And and she would do that later in the summer. And, and the rest is history. Right, Ashley?
Ashley Vogel:I'm so embarrassed.
Brandon Dennison:Now for those concerned. So as far as conflict of interest concerns, so from then on, if Coldfield ever came up in a board meeting, Ashley had to like recuse herself from the room and could not be in the decision making seat. So we were we were sure to tell Sandra early and to keep it above board, but...
Sandra Mikush:I do remember Ashley coming into my office with kind of this big breaking out into a big grin to tell me that she was going to go up to visit you.
Brandon Dennison:So we owe Babcock a lot and for our for our anniversary, I just thought it'd be fun to use the podcast to commemorate that and to look back a little bit.
Sandra Mikush:Well, we used to tease you know, since we're network officers that I did a really good job connecting y'all so and I told several people but especially Brandon at the beginning of the podcast, that is the best work I ever did so proud.
Ashley Vogel:Aw, well, we tell people all the time that you know our whole life is because of you and it really is.
Brandon Dennison:Ashley, what when, when we so, you know, we we connected on a lot of levels, but I felt, you know, it was sort of hard even with my own family when people would say what Brandon, what do you do? It was hard to explain, you know, but I think because Ashley had been in this work and seen other organizations doing this kind of work, she just immediately understood sort of my values, what I was all about what I was trying to do, and really had a deep working knowledge of West Virginia, Appalachia. Ashley would go on to get a master's degree on the topic, what is it Ashley about Appalachia? Tell the listeners sort of where you grew up, what your story is, but also what has drawn you to Appalachia and and kept you so interested in Appalachia all these years?
Ashley Vogel:Well, I grew up on the coast of Maine, which isn't like here, but Maine, you know, not by ARC standards, I don't think but is technically part of Appalachia. And when you get away from the coast, here really reminds me a lot of there. And the struggles that people have are very similar. I guess I came up here the most with Babcock, it was the easiest to get to and didn't require a plane trip. So you know, I came up here a bunch with Sandra and it was just I thought it was beautiful. I, you know, I don't, I don't know. I don't know what it is, but I found it fascinating. And Davis works in Appalachia, and so he hooked me up with a lot of Appalachian-related DVD's to watch. I don't know if you remember coming to my apartment, but I had like a stack of them. I'll never remember the first time we came up. This is unrelated to our visit. But we went to a place in Kentucky where this documentary was filmed. Sandra, do you remember telling him about stranger with a camera?
Sandra Mikush:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Ashley Vogel:And we're driving through wherever this happened. And sander is like, Have you ever heard of this thing that happened here? And she told me about it. And basically like some outsider, that was like filming, I guess during the war on poverty years got shot, and I was like, 'Oh my gosh, like what's gonna happen while we're up here?' You know, I was terrified. But anyway, yeah, so he had given me a lot of DVDs and, and I don't know, the people just seem so awesome. Like we you know, I mean, I think back to all the different people that I met, coming up here, even like, you know, like 2008, 2009, and 2010. And they were just all lovely. I mean, they were great. And we would go into their houses, and they would have cherry pie and tuna fish sandwiches, and I, people always decorated for like, every holiday didn't matter what time of year, we came up here. There was some holiday that everything was decorated for and I mean, it just, it was beautiful. It was just so beautiful up here. And, and again, I think, you know, it was Sandra, like I just saw so much potential for, you know, all the different projects that Babcock was funding and you know, then you obviously, now I'm here.
Brandon Dennison:Well, as we're coming to the close of our time Sandra, you mentioned your family, you had three kids, and we have two boys. So I'd love to hear from both of you all as, as mothers, just to reflect on your life, where it led you, things you've been interested in, the projects you've worked on and what that's meant for your family and for your role as a mother.
Sandra Mikush:That's a great question. I never get asked that question. But it is so wrapped up in it, I think every thing we did, I looked at it through the lens of you know, family and everything from appreciating the opportunities that I had and that my children had that others didn't, but also using as an opportunity to teach my children and expose my children to as much as possible. I remember taking Ashley, I don't know if I told you this, but took Katie, my daughter who's now 33, I took her to Take Your Daughter to Work Day. And we went down to Kannapolis North Carolina where we were working with, we were at the site visit was with a group doing cross-racial organizing in like worker organizing across race. And we were driving home and she was you know, doodling during it drawing or whatever. Pre-cell phones, thank goodness and on the way home. I said so what do you think she said, Mom, you and your friends are obsessed about race. I said well, yeah, I guess we are, you know, and now she's done a whole lot of work around that kind of thing in her adult life too. So I think as a mom, it I think it made everything for personal, because you could really appreciate what the vision and the hope for something for your community, it's driven by love and love for your family love for your community. And, you know, we were privileged to experience that everywhere we went. And, you know, love, supported by a really sharpened analysis and some really good skills gets a lot done.
Brandon Dennison:How about you, Ashley?
Ashley Vogel:So yeah, so before I lived here, obviously, like, I wasn't a mom. And so I, I saw this place differently, you know, and I live here now. And it's been, I guess, almost eight years now that I've lived here, and, you know, it is a very, a very different experience, you know, it's been really hard at times. You know, we used to live very rural, for the first four years or so and five years, and now we don't as much. But it's hard, you know, it's not the experience I had growing up. And so it's kind of been interesting to figure out how to raise kids in a different experience. But I feel, you know, obviously, I was always gonna move here. And that's what we discussed, and, you know, because we were both so committed to the work you were doing, it's so important. And, you know, I guess I've never, I feel that like, even more, you know, since living here and really seeing it on a personal level, and definitely even more so since becoming a mom, because you know, just what you do is so amazing, and important and timely, and just, you work so hard, and you do so great. And there's just not as many people or organizations here that make the impact that you do. So I would say like, I'm not the one doing the work, but I feel that it's very important to be here with the kids and support you in the work that you do. Does that make sense?
Brandon Dennison:Yeah, well, it wouldn't be possible if you weren't doing that.
Ashley Vogel:Well, no, no, no, no, no, that's not where this is going. But you know, I mean, I just, you know, I, I, I feel the problems here, you know, on a much more personal level, and just, you know, I, I, we have kids and our friends here have kids, and you know, it's just not about, you know, me and us and all of that.
Brandon Dennison:We can tough out whatever the world is, but then once you bring a new life into it, it's pretty important that the world be a better place.
Ashley Vogel:And I feel like no, go, you know, we get so attached to the people at Coalfield, you know what I mean? Like, like, we know, their families. And you know, like, I think about Andy and Larry, and[unintelligible]. I mean, they've been with us since the beginning. And they've got kids and grandkids. I mean, it's just, you know, we just, our lives are so intertwined. You know, the Perry's I mean, there's just so many families here now that were so intertwined with, you know, it just makes the work seem so much more important that everyone's doing.
Sandra Mikush:And y'all I can tell you from a generation removed that all that is true. And once you have another generation coming along, it's doubly so you know, I started my work at Babcock with three little ones, kindergarten and younger, and now I have five grandchildren. And you know, the importance of this work long term is even more critical to me. And not only do we need, you know, a strong economy and healthy communities now we need to take care of our world because it is rapidly changing. And when you bring little ones, you see your children bring little ones into the world that drives it home.
Brandon Dennison:That's a perfect note to end on Sandra, and thank you for your time, but really just thank you. Thanks for all you've done for Coalfield. But for Appalachian and thank you just for who you are and Ashley, used the word wise and that's right. Just bring your wisdom and balance and calm but also a strength along with the calm and you've just been a blessing to the region. And just appreciate you so much. And Ashley, I love you and Happy Anniversary. And I'll see you tonight.
Sandra Mikush:I appreciate being here and being a part of your life story. And just such a privilege to be a part of this work in Appalachia and kudos to all of you for making it all happen.
Ashley Vogel:Yay.
Brandon Dennison:Thank you both.
Sandra Mikush:All right, bye ya'll.
Brandon Dennison:Change in the Coalfields is a podcast created by Coalfield Development at the West Edge Factory in Huntington, West Virginia. This episode was hosted by Brandon Dennison, produced and edited by JJN Multimedia. Become a part of our mission to rebuild the Appalachian economy by going to our website coalfield-development.org. To make a donation. You can email us anytime at info@coalfield-development.org and subscribe to our newsletter for up to date information on the podcast. You can follow us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn by searching for Coalfield Development. Check back soon for more episodes.