The Curious Leader: How Education Shapes Women's Leadership Journey

SUMMARY

Education and lifelong learning are essential components of effective leadership, shaping careers and enabling leaders to successfully navigate change in complex environments. Continuous learning encompasses much more than formal credentials – it's about developing curiosity, adapting to challenges, and cultivating a mindset dedicated to ongoing growth.

HIGHLIGHTS
• Embracing discomfort is crucial for growth as a generalist in specialized fields
• Balancing technical expertise with leadership requires honest acknowledgment of knowledge gaps
• Women leaders often use questioning and collaborative approaches to gather diverse perspectives before decision-making
• Listening deeply to others' experiences and perspectives is a powerful yet underrated learning strategy
• Transformative learning often happens when we step outside our typical day-to-day experiences

Think about one skill, topic or area of leadership that you've been wanting to develop and commit to one small step this month to start learning and growing in that area.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Continuous Learning
• 9:25 Trust the Process: Learning with Incomplete Information
• 15:52 Balancing Technical Expertise with Leadership
• 23:00 Embracing Discomfort and Different Leadership Styles
• 31:15 Education's Role in Breaking Barriers
• 40:10 Creating a Culture of Learning
• 48:16 The Power of Curiosity and Listening

Transcript

Katie: 1:05

Welcome to another episode of Tackle Tuesday. We are excited that you've tuned in. If you've been able to listen to any of our other episodes, you know this season's all about women and leadership, and today's conversation is about education and continuous learning, so how lifelong learning shapes careers, leadership development and the ability to navigate change. So for us and for this conversation, education's not just about degrees or certifications. It's really about staying curious, adapting to new challenges, having the mindset of a lifelong learner. So whether that means formal education, on-the-job learning, mentorship which we've talked about this episode, investing in continuous growth is really essential for staying ahead of the curve and really thriving as a leader. So we can't wait for today's guest to dive into this topic with us.

Katie: 1:53

I had the pleasure of meeting our guest in one of our Woman Up cohorts as a guest speaker, and Joanna and I were just saying before this there's many things that resonated that was, I feel, a few years ago from that discussion that we've since mentioned or talked about. So really, really excited to jump into it. With that, I'll have Joanna actually introduce our guest.

Johanna: 2:11

Yeah, so welcome back, cheryl. It's actually a year ago, I think. You spoke at the Women Up cohort. That happened exactly a year ago around this time of year.

Katie: 2:20

So I guess I'd like to say welcome back in a different way to the podcast.

Johanna: 2:25

We get a full 45 minutes with you, which is thrilling. So I'm really happy and thrilled to welcome our guest today, who is Cheryl Wadasinga. Did I say it right? Yeah, that's great, okay.

Cheryl: 2:36

Yes, thank you.

Johanna: 2:37

Okay, Director, I practiced a year ago when I had to introduce you in the course there during orientation, so I'm glad I still remember it All right. So Cheryl is the Director of Operations at the National Forensic Laboratory Services, the RCMP, which is a three-site program providing forensic analysis to police agencies across Canada so not just the RCMP but police across Canada pursuing criminal investigations. Their budget is close to $45 million a year and they have over 275 employees. So Cheryl has worked with the federal government since 1997. So that is about 27 years of service, yeah, yeah, At a number of departments, including StatsCan, Statistics Canada, Employment and Skills Development Canada, Infrastructure Canada, and for the last eight years with the rcmp.

Johanna: 3:30

You started in statistics and policy research, then you worked for years in strategic policy and more recently in operations. Your undergrad is in economics and political science from saint fx in nova scotia and you just congratulations completed your master's in developmental studies from the London School of Economics and Political Science, which is a leading global center for social science research. And last year, like I said, last year so it was last year I think we had this conversation not that long ago. You finished it last April, was it? You completed?

Cheryl: 4:05

it and defended it I did, but it was the master's from the LSE was from right after my undergrad. The one that I finished just last year was in adult education, also at Santa Vax.

Johanna: 4:17

Okay, okay, okay, thank you for that Right, and your focus was women in leadership.

Cheryl: 4:22

It was yeah, it was a dedicated cohort to women in leadership.

Johanna: 4:26

And so, although we're talking about education, because you're a devoted lifelong learner, we encourage you and would love for you to weave in some of the findings from your research study, because it impacts, it's obviously relevant to this season, which is focused on women in leadership. The last thing I just want to say, because it's always nice to share something personal about our guests. But you enjoy sports, coaching and playing ultimate Frisbee, as well as athletic conditioning and fitness training. Out of curiosity, coaching and playing Ultimate Frisbee as well as athletic conditioning and fitness training Out of curiosity, do you coach Ultimate Frisbee? Yes, I do. Yeah, I coach. I've been coaching. How come? Why Ultimate Frisbee? What is Ultimate Frisbee and why are you drawn to that and not pickleball? Come on, cheryl, get on board Everybody's with pickleball.

Cheryl: 5:08

Right, I'm behind the pickleball because I haven't picked that up yet. It came up, uh, you know, more recently certainly than ultimate did. Uh, introduction to ultimate was care of a friend of uh friend of ours and my husband's in mind who wanted to do something with our couple, like as couples when we were just just married, and so he said, let's do this. No one's ever done this before. And we gave it a try, and then I started playing more, more than the league night that, uh, that we were playing together, and I just got hooked.

Cheryl: 5:36

I think it's a good question, but it does speak to some of the origins that you you've mentioned already is, for, you know, in the biography section, um, it's a very, it's a team sport, it's a developmental sport, it's also a very supportive environment for growth and learning and, as it relates to coaching, being able to introduce young players to the sport so that they can grow and learn and be exposed to competition in a safe environment. That's what I get so excited about. With respect to that, and what is it? So it is a craw. I would say it's like soccer in the sense that the size of the field is similar, but it's also like American football, because you score by catching the Frisbee in an end zone. Oh, it's also a little bit like basketball, because most of the defense is person to person.

Cheryl: 6:26

So there are seven people on a field for each team and you start the point by. You know how in American football they do a kickoff. It's similar thing. You, you pull. That we call pulling the frisbee. You throw the frisbee to the other team, they pick it up and then start on offense coming towards you and you want to prevent them from scoring in the end zone. In your end zone, if you will, okay. And once, if a pass is not completed, it's a turnover and then the defensive team becomes an offensive team okay, oh, I gotta watch a game you've never played this, joanna.

Katie: 7:00

It doesn't sound like you've never heard of it. Really, I've heard of it, yeah, I mean not, I'm not a cheryl level I remember in like a high school, maybe like some exposure.

Johanna: 7:07

Yeah, it's a cool sport never, have never seen a game, never played it. All right. Thank you so much for being with us, cheryl. Just so you know and I think we'd mentioned this in the pre-recording that we always like to start with a reflection question. So I'm going to ask the reflection question. We'll pause for a couple seconds, give our folks a chance to think, our listeners to think about that, and then I'd love it if you could answer the question. And so here it is. Think about a moment in your career when you had to learn something completely new, whether it was a skill, a leadership challenge, a new way of thinking. How did that learning experience shape your growth? So, cheryl, I'll ask you that same question.

Cheryl: 7:58

In this moment. I am remembering a time early in my career when I was first working in policy and we were asked to do something that there's, as you said, I had never done before. It was. It didn't make sense and one of the looking back on that moment, one of the things that I would say I needed to do was to trust the process, and my colleagues around me kind of tried, like I had, to put aside the questions that didn't have answers and take the information that was in front of me and try to meet the objective that was before us. So, yeah, I can give more context. Would you like to hear more context about the example? Yeah, so I was a junior policy analyst at the time and we were.

Cheryl: 8:44

I was one of my first experiences preparing for a speech from the throne. Oftentimes what happens is federal departments kind of get they get ready to be asked if we were going to do something in the area of learning, for example, what would you suggest that we put before a new government or the government for them to consider? And what we had heard for that particular day was we know that there's going to be something in the speech from the throne and we need to provide the background for it. And I said but we don't have this yet, like it's not worked up, we haven't finished, like we, we don't, and how do we know what they're going to say in the speech from the throne in order for us to develop this? And my manager at the time was said well, that's the. That's the mystery of this whole process is we will not find out what the wording is, but we need to still come up with something.

Cheryl: 9:35

And so you know, I felt this was totally contrary to the way I'd like to. You know, you'd want to see the information that you need to write about, you need to expand, but in that exercise it wasn't available to us, and so we had to do our best guess based on our information we had at the time and what we out of all that, we knew the context of the situation, what was our best advice in that moment? And so that was that was. I found that really challenging and over the course of you know, like working over the years, it's happened time and again that you don't have all that you need or you would like to wait to find out more information, but in that moment you're asked to make a decision or make a recommendation or provide advice, and you just have to kind of gather what I can't remember, the expression your druthers and and do the best you can. So I would. I think I'd point to that as one of the an example that pops up for me today yeah, what was the outcome?

Cheryl: 10:31

oh, we, we delivered on the I, whether it was a briefing note or advice that we needed to put in a certain template, and it went to where it needed to go and yeah it was. It was fine. It actually was the the start of fair amount of work for us in that on that file, because once it was announced, uh, we were asked to develop more in-depth recommendations as it related to our initial backgrounder, and we did some really cool work. It was on social enterprise at the time, it was many years ago.

Johanna: 10:58

Yeah, and so I assume a moment like that or a similar experience came up again, where you had to trust the process.

Katie: 11:06

Yeah, so that was at the only time.

Johanna: 11:08

And then what was it like the second time, or even the third time, that you were put into a similar position?

Cheryl: 11:13

I think one of the things that uh we talk about this in other contexts and learning is it? It's hard to not worry about the things you can't control, so and in some cases you can't control that it's going to go the way it needs to go, uh, and you need to take comfort in the fact that you're doing the absolute best with information that you have, with the team that's gathered around you, and sometimes you're going to miss the mark, sometimes you're going to hit it, sometimes you will only partially hit it, but that's part of the process, and that's what I kind of meant by. You got to trust the process, also realizing that the people that are asking this of you are not expecting perfection. They're expecting the best you can do with the information that you have, and so coming to that realization, too, is really important. There's an understanding and an empathy for the fact that you don't necessarily have everything that you need to make a perfect decision, but the reality of life is, when do we have perfect information? Almost never, right?

Cheryl: 12:15

So, yeah, it was an interesting life lesson, and it happens on a regular basis, especially because one of the things that I did choose to do in my career is to be a generalist, and so I have had the benefit of being able to move around to different sectors and different jobs. It's meant being delving into areas that I am an amateur at and having that experience of what generalist skills do I bring to the table that will help advance this issue. We always look to the subject matter experts for the details and then the general skills that I can bring, put the package together and then, you know, create space for the discussions to happen and then, once a decision is made, do that, do that implementation.

Johanna: 13:01

It sounds a lot like what, katie, we both do in our business.

Katie: 13:05

That's what I was thinking. Yeah, yeah, I'm relating to a lot of what you just said.

Johanna: 13:08

It can be quite exciting because we learn as journalists I mean, we're experts when it comes to the work that we do, but we work with our clients, who are experts in their field, to design solutions and services for them. And so anytime that we work with a client, a new client in a new industry that we're not familiar with, it's kind of like there's the nerves behind that. There's like can we succeed? Can we do this? We're like, yes, we can, because the skill sets that we have paired with theirs is powerful. So I appreciate what you said around just trust the process and trust the expertise that they have and the value that you bring. And I don't know.

Johanna: 13:45

Have fun with that. It makes life a bit more spicy.

Cheryl: 13:48

Yeah, definitely, definitely.

Katie: 13:50

Thanks for that, cheryl. Yeah, I think that's a really great kind of ease into this. And the next section I have I've framed it like the impact of continuous learning on leadership, knowing that's our topic today. So you know, I poked around. There's a lot of different research, strong research showing that leaders who embrace continuous learning and when I say leaders I'd say you know formal, informal leaders who embrace continuous learning are more adaptable, resilient and effective in navigating complex challenges. And I was able to find, when I skimmed some of the research you know, a whole list of why lifelong learning is essential for leadership. I'm actually curious, before I get to, I've got a couple of questions lined up for you, cheryl, but even I don't know. Joanna, do you want to take a quick stab at, like, what are some of those benefits to embracing lifelong learning? What do you think are those benefits? So maybe, joanna, do you want to just share quickly and then I'll get more in depth with my questions and Cheryl's thoughts.

Johanna: 14:41

Yeah, sorry about the benefits.

Katie: 14:44

Sorry, katie, yeah, like why is lifelong learning essential for leadership? Rather than me just sharing what the research said, I'm curious what your thought might be Okay.

Johanna: 14:51

Yeah, katie likes to throw me into this. Sometimes I'm like, oh, katie, come on.

Katie: 14:55

You throw me into it. It's part of the fun. You said keep it spicy.

Johanna: 15:04

I mean, I guess when I heard someone say, like when you stop learning, you're dead, you know. I mean how it's, it's when I it's allowed me to be more confident, taking risk, because I go back to when I decided to leave government to start my own business. Uh, and there was a lot of learning that happened in that, those first few months, first year of business, around learning how to shift my experience, my mindset, the things I knew, my expertise, from being a government employee, a public servant, to being a business owner and realizing I had so many transferable skills that would set me up for success. But I still had a lot of gaps that you know knowledge and ability.

Johanna: 15:45

If I had never committed to being a lifelong learner, I would have probably never left government because I wouldn't have seen it as an opportunity to learn and do something new and different. I wouldn't have braced the learning opportunity. I wouldn't have seen that. That was part of the excitement of doing this. So I think it opens up us to be more of a risk taker and let's just be honest, like all companies, all institutions, all public, private, nonprofit, like we have to be open to risk-taking or else we will cease to become relevant in terms of the services that we provide to our clients, to whoever that we're serving, we won't be as effective in supporting them anymore. So I think lifelong learning makes you more agile, more resilient. So I think lifelong learning makes you more agile, more resilient. It gives you more hope for the future. It does, yeah, is it Cheryl's?

Katie: 16:37

turn. Yeah, you're off the hot seat. No, that was a great answer. I wasn't trying to catch you off guard. I was genuinely curious, just in making this very conversational, to get your two cents before we dive in. So, no, I think that was awesome and I agree with with a lot of that, and I think we all three of us are people who, yes, in terms of our jobs and like seeking degrees and formal experiences with learning, but also just being drawn to different people's stories and ways of you know, reading about things and learning about things more casually. I get the sense we all value that and so, yes, I think that lines up so well with what you just said, joanna.

Katie: 17:15

Okay, well, I'll use that then to segue to some of the questions I have for you, cheryl. So the first one I mean from your experience. I mean look at all your career, but I'm considering as well in kind of the forensic science area you're currently in. How do you balance the technical expertise? Even as a generalist like you need to come into areas and sort of understand, I guess, some of those technical subject matter specific pieces. How do you balance that with leadership development, and what advice do you have for professionals looking to continuously grow in their careers.

Cheryl: 17:43

It's a fascinating question, I think. I mean the one of the obvious ways to answer that is it depends on the context, which is actually not really a great answer. So what I would say is that I think there's a blend of potentially different philosophies or ways of moving forward that make that work, and one of the ones that we've talked about I couldn't speak to specific literature on it in the moment, but one thing that we talk about a fair bit is having like a matrix matrix organization right, so you have different people with different skills, and so together you're able to provide a quality, quality product, and I think that that's that's definitely something that we we have built part like somewhat consciously, somewhat unconsciously, in terms of the our, the our current situation in our program. But as far as it relates to, you know, like as, as you would have heard, I am not a scientist, like a scientist, and so I can't I could not speak to anything that someone hasn't already told me in terms of forensic science, and so the advice that comes from this the subject matter experts and the people that are experienced in this field is critical. I'm a translator, I'm a communicator and I bring the information that they provide to me to other levels where you know, when it's necessary, more senior decisions can be made. But I also am a translator, kind of in the other direction, where, if there's organizational direction about how we're going to move forward on any kind of commitment that we've made, it's my job to make that something that people can understand and engage with and get on board with.

Cheryl: 19:31

A person that asks questions and in some cases, when it comes to like a briefing on something technical, I, I simply need to understand. So I ask a lot of questions, develop a an understanding of what the issue is and what's either holding us back or what we need to keep going, and then I I go from there. Whenever I can, I bring experts with me because if it's uh, if there's a chance that there will be technical questions, I know that I'm not going to be able to answer them as well, and so I ask subject matter experts to join me in those discussions. But, yeah, I think being, I think, being honest about what you don't know, being curious, about trying to understand what are the key things I'm going to need to communicate, um, and then providing feedback and, uh, what the outcomes of the discussion or the briefings were is really important as a generalist kind of in the role that I'm in right now.

Katie: 20:17

I really like that, yeah, having some humility. It sounds like in terms of what you don't know, or also knowing what your role is, and it sounds like the way you described that, like the translator, facilitator, and what you do to have that curiosity is really interesting. But, yeah, knowing that role and I'm wondering maybe just a follow up that came to mind as you were talking, because it's something we we talk a lot with with women in our programs throughout the podcast we've talked about, you know, imposter syndrome or the self doubt, and I'm wondering, especially as a generalist, how you've handled that. I can imagine in certain situations yes, I hear that you know you're bringing the expert, you're bringing that knowledge to the table if you don't have it, but I imagine there's been moments where you've had imposter syndrome. So how have you managed or handled?

Cheryl: 21:00

that, yeah, I think one of the ways that I've handled it is to become accustomed to feeling uncomfortable. So sometimes we try to learn enough or set ourselves up for success so that you're in a comfortable space as much as you can be. I think it's a very human behavior, but I think part of being a generalist in a specialized area is that you will be uncomfortable a lot of the time, and so your strategies on how to navigate uncomfortable spaces are really important. You, like I am not afraid to say I don't know, I'm not afraid to say I made a mistake, I'm not afraid to apologize, and I think that you know that that kind of leads into a little bit of what I would consider some of the aspects of the leadership style that I have, and it is. It's challenging because I mean, you know you referred to women in leadership positions. I think it's challenging because, on occasion, that those types of behaviors are not they're not your classical strong decision maker leadership. You know observations that you would make, and so, and as much as it really works for me, I also am aware of the fact that it may others may perceive it as a sign of weakness or an inability to make a decision. Or you know, if I need to consult again, I'm going to say I need to consult again. And so you know, do I know what I'm doing? Am I convincing when I say this is the way I think we should move forward?

Cheryl: 22:36

Maybe sometimes some people might not think that other leaders may get the wrong impression about my ability to make decisions. But I don't doubt my ability to make decisions. It's just that sometimes I think it comes across a little bit differently for people, um and. But I feel it's really necessary because, without double checking or without taking some time to reflect, I just there's a point where your instincts are telling you you gotta slow down, or you, you know you have to. You have to get some more information, um, and, like I said earlier, there are times when you can't and you have to make some more information. And, like I said earlier, there are times when you can't and you have to make the best call possible. So back to you got to try to find a way to be comfortable, being uncomfortable. But other times, when there's sufficient time, it's important that that consultation happen, or that other partners or perspectives be added to the discussion, and they need to be brought to it as opposed to you know me trying to be a spokesperson.

Katie: 23:35

Oh, I love that answer. I really relate to it. It kind of goes back to trust the process, like you said before, even for yourself knowing like. No, this is my process and it's in place for a reason. It will help us get there, even if it takes a bit. And I think even I can think from my own experience. Before even joining SynoGap, when I was working in the university setting, I think I was a generalist as well and going into new areas to manage a team where I've never worked, I think student residences everyone typically lived in student residence, student housing and worked their way up through all the positions and I didn't do any of that. So, coming in, especially during crisis during COVID and a lot of people needing a lot of answers, and I didn't have them. And my approach, very much like yours, is well, let's bring in people who know more than I do and make a decision, but sometimes I think early on I doubted myself because it was like maybe I don't know how to make a decision, but I think more so it was.

Katie: 24:21

I had a different process to get there and it also takes time to learn some of that Right. So anyways, I'm very much relating to what you said in the embracing discomfort. I think is a really good takeaway with that. Before I switch gears, is there? Any follow-up, joanna, you have for Cheryl on this piece, or? Oh, go ahead.

Cheryl: 24:38

Cheryl, yeah, I was just thinking it came to mind.

Cheryl: 24:40

There was one colleague, one leader that I worked with at one point and I think I there is a kind of a point of inflection for me that helped me be more determined about what I just described to you, and it was, uh, I think it was a similar moment for her and, you know, being in a, in a, in a policing organization, I think there's a lot of emphasis that's placed on someone who is, uh, is is clearly taking up their authority and their space.

Cheryl: 25:09

And she wasn't necessarily like that. She, like I do, asked a lot of questions and at one point was in one meeting, was being pressed to, kind of to the point where she was made to feel like she was delaying making a decision. And she just stopped the conversation and said I want everyone to know that I am perfectly capable of making this decisions, this decision, but I'm asking questions because I want to make the best possible decision, like, don't doubt that I will decide something at the end of this, but I'm asking questions so that I can be as informed as I feel I need to be, and that kind of stopped everyone in a little bit. You know, yeah, and in that moment, that moment was kind of great, because those that expected a different style or a different type of decision making had to adjust.

Katie: 26:02

I really like that line. I wish I had had that. At certain times I can think back to where maybe I felt like I was flailing a bit, but being really firm with like no, I do have. What it takes, I'm choosing to do it and this is why I think is really powerful. And that makes me think. Even this week, john, when we were facilitating some discussions moment up, we talked about power and and how do you? There was a particular quote. I can't remember what it shared, but it kind of alluded to you know, like, kind of like, we talked about taking up space, and I think there's different ways to do that. That might not be from what you said, you know. Hey, listen to me everyone. Here's the decision. It's going. Let's really really incorporate all perspectives here or take a moment to really be thoughtful. There's power in taking up that kind of space. So thanks for that, joanna. Anything you want to add to this? Any follow-ups for Cheryl before I take us perhaps in a different direction?

Johanna: 26:50

Absolutely, cheryl, maybe you mentioned this or alluded to this the leader before her was he or she the type of leader that would lead through authority and unilateral decision-making? The woman who said, listen, I'm going to make a decision, but I'm just asking questions. And if her predecessor was a guy, it's because when we just did this, like Katie, talked about women in power, part of that conversation our last Women at Program was the stereotypical ways that men lead versus women and that we're realizing that the stereotypical ways that women lead, which is exactly what you said.

Johanna: 27:25

this other female leader did. Ask questions, create a collaborative environment, to not always take a unilateral decision-making stance but to seek input is traditionally female, but we see that what organizations need to thrive today is that kind of leadership. That's why I wanted to know if it was her predecessor who led differently a male, because this is what the research is showing us. So just real quick, before Katie leads us into the next question was he a male? And not that I necessarily want to, I guess I'm playing into the stereotype, so I'm kind of curious was he a guy, her predecessor?

Cheryl: 28:01

Yeah, yes, yes, he was, and I think prior to that as well, there had sort of been not as many female leaders in that role or women leaders in that role, and so I think there was also, you know, from the teams that supported that position, there was an expectation of the type of leader that they were going to be dealing with, and it was, when it wasn't the person they thought it was or the style that they were used to. I think that there was an adjustment that needed to happen. Yeah, I think you know to kind of build on what I agree is a stereotype as well and kind of more common leadership style. There's a sometimes a sense that the person already knows whatever, 95% of what's going on, of the kind of the landscape, and they just need a couple clarification questions. Then they're going to make their decision. When a person comes in and says, okay, well, tell me about this entire landscape, tell me about the different perspectives, it starts from a point that sometimes people are is like way further back from what they're expecting.

Cheryl: 29:04

To be asked and I think that was part of the adjustment that was happening is that she wanted to know how, how I see a landscape, but I want to know how you describe it, what does it look like from your perspective, cause that helps me understand why you're recommending what you're recommending or the advice that you're giving me. And yeah, so I think there was a bit of a I don't know what you'd call it like a cultural adjustment that needed to happen. Yeah, that she was doing, she was trying to, I think, assert almost informally, but then there were certain times when she had to address it directly and, yeah, that was that was. I learned a lot from that.

Johanna: 29:45

Yeah, and I think it's totally okay to do that. Maybe she was hired because of her different way of leading, and I think there are benefits to leading in that way. It can lead to more positive outcomes, you're not creating an echo chamber around you. Thank you, Cheryl.

Cheryl: 29:59

Exactly yeah.

Katie: 30:00

Okay, okay, no great follow-up. I'm glad you made that point, kind of opened that piece up, joanna. I'll move next. I'm going to shift us to the role of education in breaking barriers. Women in leadership often have to work harder to prove their expertise and credibility. I mean, there's different things related to this. I'm thinking of again things that have come up recently in some of the cohorts when we've facilitated discussions around the confidence gap theory. So even if there's a perception that to feel 100% ready to do the thing or apply for the thing, I need to work harder to be prepared, or if, to overcome barriers, there is expectations to prove that expertise in a different way as a woman. So with that in mind, cheryl, in your experience, in your master's research, how has education helped women advance in fields where they are underrepresented, and what strategies can women use to leverage education for leadership growth?

Cheryl: 30:53

I think in this we would be talking about both informal and formal learning. Right so that you be? Because the leaders that I spoke with. They definitely had had a foundation in formal learning. They went along from other leaders that they wanted to emulate, from other leaders that they did not want to emulate. I think that the idea of understanding their education and how it assisted their leadership fundamentally talks about the fact that they themselves were lifelong learners, in the sense that they sought to listen and understand and bring forward their experience and, by asking questions, clarify but also, like this last example that I gave, bring a group to a new place and create that change through the different discussions and the ways that other people could observe that they were making decisions. So I'm concerned that that's very, very general. I'll try to think a bit more about specific examples.

Cheryl: 32:09

I think there's definitely moments of tension that the people interviewed, the research participants, expressed to me in terms of trying to reset conversations and construct them in the way that they wanted to have them. So they were using you know, they're using curiosity and they're using questions to establish how they want to move forward, but also they were very reflective in terms of the feedback that they would give, so asking questions like well, so this is what I understand, this is how I think we should, what I'm leaning towards. Is there anything that I'm missing? They would kind of circle back and try to make sure that there wasn't a perspective they were missing. And if there was, you know, then you have to make the decision about like't a perspective they were missing, and if there was, you know, then you have to make the decision about like, do you have enough time to go and and try to uh understand that perspective in order to add it to all the information that you have.

Cheryl: 33:06

Um, there were certainly moments when the participants spoke about their upbringing and the, the types of things that they are, types of, the tactics or the behaviors that they felt they had adopted.

Cheryl: 33:23

That would help them uh, either, again by you know.

Cheryl: 33:26

So, for example, if, uh, I'm just trying to think there was one of the participants moms had gone through quite a lot like moving their family out of the country and then back to the country and really, and upon return, as a single mother, the types of things that she prioritized in terms of the well-being of the kids and how they got to school, and how much she emphasized the fact that it was important to be serious and be focused on school was something that that you know, the participant I'm thinking of really brought that into her own kind of her core identity and it became an important thing for her to support in others.

Cheryl: 34:07

And so, for example, one of the things she talked about was supporting the professional development of her teams and how she made an effort, despite priorities for the workplace, ensuring that she had a connection with the people that she was working with and recognizing that what they were raising in terms of their own learning needs or their own interests, that she did what she could to support them in making steps towards that. So, whether it was a degree, it could be a workshop, so that's kind of easy. You say, oh, it's going to be not that much money, we'll sign up, we're going to take that one day and go do that. I think that that's one of the main ways that one of the examples, rather, that they conveyed to me in terms of converting what they had observed either in their family life or other venues into how they managed their teams. Thank you, cheryl.

Katie: 35:01

I think that's so great, the examples you were able to pull from the research that you did and the participants you met with, and, I think, the way that we think of professional development, how do we support that in our own journeys, right, but also, if we have the capacity within a team setting whether that's a workshop, like you said, a degree and really understanding the needs of our people and how do we help support them, because lifelong learning, as we've been talking about, can be so many different things.

Katie: 35:28

And how do we create a culture where there is curiosity and there is this also idea that we're not all you know, maybe not like we don't need to. We haven't perfected the role or learned everything there is to learn. There's always opportunity to continue to grow and develop. So, yeah, I really like how you framed that. It kind of leads nicely into the next question I had, so I might actually just take the opportunity to move to it. But, with that said, cheryl, I'm curious whether you know from your research or your own experience what role do you feel organizations play in fostering that culture of learning and what best practices have you?

Cheryl: 36:04

seen work. I can as you know, I can speak personally only from the public sector, but I would say that there are a lot of, there are a fair amount of sort of institutionalized or formalized processes that we have that support us in continuous learning for employees. I think that in addition to those so let's say, for example, in our organization we do learning plans every year alongside performance agreements, and what happens at the beginning of the year is or what's supposed to happen is the manager has a conversation with the employee, the employee has an opportunity to raise the things that they feel like they want to make progress on in terms of their learning, and then the manager employee can come to some kind of agreement on what they could support for that year and then, through in the middle of the year, they check back in and say how are we doing against those goals? Do they need to shift or could we add something? Or, you know, depending on the workload, do we need to kind of take something off and have it for next year? But those conversations are really important. They're really anchored by the expectation that there's a documented learning plan and that there is an end of year discussion that concludes whether or not those commitments have been achieved, and so that formalization really creates a coherence across the organization for all managers and an expectation that that will happen.

Cheryl: 37:29

Where it is most beneficial, though, in my opinion, is where the manager has created a space where the employee is comfortable raising what it is, that they feel, that they where they want to grow, because there's a vulnerability there and in in relationships with managers and employees, where it's, let's say, either very hierarchical or a more distant relationship. So you know, like I'm, I come to work and I'm expected to hit my performance metrics and that's the, that's the bulk of what I do. So I come in and I do my work and then I go home is very different from I know what my performance metrics are. I understand that. You know that's, that's how my performance can be measured. But in addition to that, my manager and I have had conversations about what I want to potentially do next in my career or where I want to, the direction I want to take. And as we have these conversations, there's a comfort level that develops and a trust so that the employee feels like they can be vulnerable in that space a little bit and say, oh, you know, I'm not.

Cheryl: 38:32

I've been in this field for 10 years. I'm not sure I want to do this for the rest of my career. I'd like to explore other things and that's the cue really for the manager to be able to say, okay, well, let's have a conversation about that. Have you looked at this or have you? Maybe you would consider meeting with some people in areas that you are curious about, and I'd be willing to support you in doing that. Perhaps the person even has someone that they know in that field that they could refer, and it kind of just snowballs from there, if you will. But I think that, in addition to having those formal processes, that that openness of the manager to have those conversations with employees is is super important absolutely.

Katie: 39:10

I think it's important. You pointed out the formalization of it because I think in my own experience and seeing organization, where that's not there, it just it won't often happen right and it doesn't really set that this is a priority, that this will happen, but you're right that there also needs to be the openness and the vulnerability.

Katie: 39:26

You're right to ask for what you want or what you need, or even to explore Like I can even go there. I've never been asked or never thought of where I might want to grow. So I think that's key and I think to to the like reflection like we can do all the courses, but what are you learning? How are you applying it? And so having a manager do what you just said, be open and support that learning journey at least that's what I'm picking up is also key, because I don't think just going through the motions is enough and it makes me think I can't help.

Katie: 39:51

And maybe, cheryl and Joanna, you had this too, but in grad school, the term lifelong learner I know there was like a whole critical discourse around like how that can be problematic if it's too focused on just almost like commodifying learning, like we all need micro credentials and we need to have our all these things to show our value, and that that brings up all sorts of issues of access and also does that guarantee that you're better or more equipped. So there's like a whole other thing we could get into, which we won't. But I want to come back, I guess, to um, like the relationship and the way we support learning, even super informally, of like how did that thing go? What did you learn about yourself?

Cheryl: 40:30

right, yes, meeting last week, you know like there's opportunity everywhere, so yeah, yeah, katie, I think your comment is extremely valid.

Cheryl: 40:37

that's exactly where my mind was going as well. The, you know there's so much more access because learning is kind of more marketized, it can happen in smaller bits. It has a lot of structure around it, depending on, you know, if we're talking about professional development, uh, even even, I think post-secondary education institutions are certainly, you know, trending that way, uh. But I also agree there's a lot that can be lost in that if, because that one of the things that's so fascinating to me about learning is that the possibility that something will transform the way a person thinks, or that getting away from your, let's say, your day-to-day, in the context of, you know, a learning plan and someone's asked to take, do a workshop or is trying to explore a different area the chance that there's some opportunity for something to transform the way they think in a direction that they're interested in going, and then they look at the world, they look at their work, they look at their work, they look at the contribution that they want to make in their careers slightly differently, and there's so much power in that.

Cheryl: 41:44

So you know, if I'm a CA and my world is accounting, and that's what I am focused on doing. It obviously makes a lot of sense to recredentialize or to specialize. Obviously makes a lot of sense to recredentialize or to specialize, uh. But there may be moments too during my career where I would do something else, to just like to get an opportunity to open my mind to a different way of thinking. And maybe I would you know, as you'd suggest, could you bring that back with you and it it makes the your own contribution in your own team for your own workplace a little bit different and probably, I would argue, a little bit better. But that it's a very qualitative statement.

Katie: 42:24

Sure, I mean I'm like I agree, but you're, you're right. I guess that is yeah, but yeah, no. Well said yeah, no. I really appreciate being able to go there a little in this discussion just to consider all ways of this idea of lifelong learning. I think I should probably join, maybe hand it to you to ask some of our kind of concluding questions, even though I feel like I could keep talking about this for a while. Why don't I turn it to you, joanna, for our call to action reflection?

Johanna: 42:51

Yeah. So when we wrap up, cheryl, we always right before we do the wrap up and we'll give you an opportunity to share last words in a second. But first we're going to do what's called a call to action and then I'm going to ask you if you could leave our listeners with a piece of advice. Okay, so the call to action is think about one skill, topic or area of leadership that you've been wanting to develop and what's one small step you can make this month to start learning and growing in that area. So, cheryl, we've talked a lot about education, continuous learning, and how it shapes leadership, drive, career advancement, having confidence, tackling imposter syndrome and how being a lifelong learner can support all of that. If you could leave our listeners with a piece of advice on how to embrace continuous learning as an individual contributor or as a leader, let's put you on the spot there. It's a big question.

Cheryl: 43:42

Yeah, no, it's good, it's, it's, it's. I would come back to something that we mentioned near the beginning, which is to be curious. I think that curiosity and and I would also add listening to others like listening is such an incredible skill to develop to challenge yourself, to put aside what you might be thinking, assumptions that you might have made about a person, and really listen to whatever it might be whether it's the advice they're providing you or a perspective they're sharing and then to try to really understand where they're coming from, even if it comes to you know, like, what is their origin story? Why would they be a person who would be advocating for a certain way of doing something or have a certain viewpoint? It is so crucial to be able to really listen and to be curious. I think that would be my advice.

Cheryl: 44:40

I had a friend in like I'll never forget her in university, and now my best friend is exactly the same. She would talk to anyone. She would stop and listen and talk to anyone, and sometimes I would be a little bit impatient because we were going somewhere, we had to get something done, and she would stop and talk to people, or just yeah. And what I learned from what she did was that she was collecting perspectives and she was collecting experiences and making connections with people, and I came to believe afterwards that she used all of that information at the time she was doing her doctorate and I think she used all of the information she collected, all the stories she heard from people to help open her mind even more and to really benefit from other people and their learning and their experiences.

Cheryl: 45:34

And, yeah, my best friend right now she's exactly the same. She will have conversations with anyone, and what it challenged me to do as well is to check my own assumptions right, like why are you talking to that person? But she's talking to them because they're a person and they have something to offer, and making that connection might bring her to a different perspective, and we talked just now about transformation. What would that person's contribution to your own life change for you and to make you a richer thinker, a more knowledgeable person?

Johanna: 46:04

That's so well said. We call that courageous empathy. We just did a live webcast webinar before we joined you, cheryl, and we were talking about courageous empathy. You defined it very well through what she does. I have an actual final, I guess, question reflection question for our participants based on what she does. I have an actual final I guess, question reflection question for our participants based on what you said, and so my question to our participants, to our listeners whose perspective and experience would you like to collect and how will you use that knowledge to support your own learning journey, your own learning?

Cheryl: 46:36

journey.

Johanna: 46:43

I'm just thinking to end things off like we're about to go into voting. Well, some people Canada, there's an election. Some people have already voted, some people are still reflecting on who they're going to vote for. That could be something you do to help you make a decision. Or, if you have someone in your family who is voting very differently than you, it could be a way to get better understanding, demonstrate more empathy towards the issues that are important to people, because I feel like we're living in a bit more of a divisive time right now, especially politically.

Johanna: 47:15

Looking at it as I'm going to collect someone's perspective and experience can help deescalate, disarm people and put them in a position to better listen, and through that we learn so much. So I really wow, that's amazing advice. Thank you so much, cheryl. It's been amazing having you here on the show and for you to share your insights on education, growth, your own leadership journey, which is absolutely so impressive. Your career is a great reminder that leadership is a journey of constant evolution, especially for those who decide to commit to being a lifelong learner. I don't think you can have leader and not want to be a lifelong learner in the same.

Johanna: 47:53

They need to coexist and if you're not realizing that in your leader, you have to shift your perspective and thinking on this matter.

Katie: 48:01

I learned a lot through what you had to say and to share and I really enjoyed the conversation, so just a thank you, cheryl, thank you so much for inviting me.

Johanna: 48:09

Oh, you're so welcome. Thank you, and so to our listeners. If today's episode inspired you, please we encourage you to share it with someone who values growth and leadership. Keep learning, keep growing and we'll see you next time on tackle tuesday. Thank you.