#14 - Jonna van 't Hof on how to calculate fair prices for your work

In my podcast A Smaller Life, I talk to makers and business owners in my industry (and sometimes beyond) about making conscious choices and growing your brand by actually going smaller.

In this episode, I welcome Jonna van 't Hof, she's a legal and business advisor at BBK (Beroepsvereniging van Beeldend Kunstenaars - Professional Association of Visual Artists). 

Jonna reacted on my Instagram stories about fair wages and prices for your work as a professional knitter. She was so specific about it that I needed to know more,I contacted her and as it turns out she's a professional in the field. It took me 2 seconds to invite her to be my guest on the podcast and l'm so glad she obliged. 

Jonna advises visual artists on legal and business matters and knits in her spare time.

We had such an in-depth discussion about fair wages for self employed creatives. And fair and sustainable prices for handmade items. When do you call yourself a professional artist or crafter, is there a difference. How do you move from creating for fun to becoming a professional and what steps do you need to take. 

What I loved about this conversation is that it's all  in your hands. It's a mindset if nothing else. Some of the best artists are self educated.

"When you think it, if you have the right mindset, you can become it"

A Professional Artist is someone who makes autonomous work you don't necessarily need an art education. 

Any artist is good enough and worthy enough of GOOD payment! 

Everyone who sees theirselves as a professional artist can become a member in the union. 

FIND THE TOP 10 TAKEAWAYS on www.ja-wol.com 

One (!!) pair of hand knit socks should cost about €254,- not €20,-!!

If you want to build or grow your business in textile crafts, why don't you join our online community for a small, monthly contribution of only 10 euros, which is $10 ish. You get to hang out, learn from and share your business. And your craft journey with all the lovely people there, support the podcast at the same time and you get everything wrapped into one loving package. I would love to welcome you there.

Go to Patternshift.fm and click

Transcript

Saskia de Feijter: 0:03

This is a smaller life podcast about making more conscious and more ethical choices within our crafts. Hosted by me Saskia de Feijter. I'm a small business owner who wants to grow by going smaller. Together with local makers, I make tools, yarns and accessories for knitters that want to buy less, buy better, make more and make it less, keeping away the overwhelm, and all the ridiculousness of over consuming within our crafts. In the podcast, I endeavor to answer the question we ask ourselves before we start a project, what do we buy? Where do we buy? Who do we buy from? Or don't we buy it off, but use what we already have? Because when you think about what you do, you take more time and end up with less of everything. As a result, you'll get a smaller life. Two weeks ago, I asked a question on my Instagram account. The question was, what is in your personal opinion, a fair hourly wage for a professional crafter. And 85% says it was more like 50 euros, but still a whopping 15% answered around 10 Euros, which was I was a little amazed by that answer and proceeded to ask some more questions. I got a lot of responses from helping knitters and professional knitters , and also other professionals. One of them is here with us now to talk to us about this topic. My name is Jonna van 't Hof and Jonna Why don't you start by telling us what you do for a living and what your hobbies are?

Jonna van 't Hof: 1:51

Hi, I'm Donna. I work as a legal and business advisor for a union of professional artists for visual artists. Well, it's a bit related to knitting. I think. I'm a I'm a knitter. I do also sew, crochet weave. I love making textile. That's what's well, both of these things triggered me to to answer and to talk to Saskia today.

Saskia de Feijter: 2:18

Yeah, so you had an amazingly specific answer to the, to the topic. And I was completely like, Oh, she needs to come and talk to the listeners and share her knowledge with us. So let's first make this distinction between the you work for a union of professional visual artists, what kind of artists are we talking about specifically here?

Jonna van 't Hof: 2:45

Well, it's a large variety, I think that the main disciplines are painters, sculptors, there will be some graphic designers, photographers, also some some textile artists, I do believe we have a weaver well, is one of the I think two or three big unions for visual artists in the Netherlands. It's the oldest union and they started in 45, after the Second World War, from the artists resistance. And it's quite and through history. It's quite I say, activists organization. Nowadays, it's not not so much. We don't go to the streets anymore and shout. But

Saskia de Feijter: 3:28

right now we kind of are

Jonna van 't Hof: 3:30

Yeah, in a way,

Saskia de Feijter: 3:33

these knitters.

Jonna van 't Hof: 3:36

So well, I don't think we have any knitters in among the artists. But I think the idea of setting your hourly wage or how to talk about your income, I think it's the same for professional artists as for knitters and other people in the creative industry.

Saskia de Feijter: 3:54

Yeah. So that is the creative industry is like the common denominator. So excuse me, there's a difference between a professional artist and a hobbyist. And somebody wants to make some money on the side, right?

Jonna van 't Hof: 4:13

Yes, Yes, there is. I think, there there's different things to to approach this, I think you can see it in quality of the work, which is always a very difficult thing, because it's really close related to taste. But you can also see it in how people relate to Taxes. And if they have a VAT number and these kinds of things. And for us, we say, well, when you are professional artists, you have to think about the tax things depending on your income. You have to have a VAT number or maybe not, but at least you have to think about it to know it exists and to know if you need it or not. Yeah. And well, it's professional to pay your taxes.

Saskia de Feijter: 4:58

So in order to be Professional, you have to act like a professional. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Um, would you distinguish between? And here we go, this is a whole different thing. Would you distinguish between an artist and a crafter? Could you say something about that?

Jonna van 't Hof: 5:19

That's a dangerous topic.

Saskia de Feijter: 5:22

It is a dangerous topic I know. Because now let's just make a little bit more specific. If you are a crafter and you want to start making your actual living, should you get the same hourly price, the same kind of situation as an artist that has gone to art school?

Jonna van 't Hof: 5:44

Well, for my work, we don't distinguish in people went to art school or who don't? And are what we call in Dutch autodidact.

Saskia de Feijter: 5:51

I don't know, what are you do?

Jonna van 't Hof: 5:53

No, we don't, because some of the best artists are having been to art school and are self educated.

Saskia de Feijter: 5:58

It's really, it's really great for me to hear that in order to apply to be in the Union, you don't have to be a literally schooled artist.

Jonna van 't Hof: 6:10

Because I think that's possible to educate yourself through courses from other artists, and to have a different way of learning for some artists it has worked that way. I mean, I know a lot of artists who didn't finish art school because they they they felt claustrophobic in the in the direction that Academy was pushing them. They wanted to be more free. So I don't think there is a distinction. What we call a professional artists, someone who makes and we call this in Dutch out numeric? autonomous work? Yeah, I think that's Yeah,

Saskia de Feijter: 6:43

I think the way you go into production versus original design, there's definitely a difference there. Like you're either a skilled machine making something that's already there, from a pattern that's already there, which is another thing we should go into later. And designing your own patterns and making your own original designs and items. It's a totally different thing. There's, there's probably a distinction in the way you get paid in which of these two things you do. And when I talk about production of let's say, a sweater, you cannot just start knitting patterns that are already there, and then sell them there's a whole thing with copyrights. But that's perhaps for another another time, actually, where were we trying to go with this interview is to give you some practical, but also like clear ideas on how you can start to take yourself seriously as a maker, and how you can tell yourself that you are good enough and worthy enough of good payment basically. Yeah, so that's what we're trying to do here. who applies to be in the Union? What kind of people?

Jonna van 't Hof: 8:09

Yes, well, people who are well there's those people went to art to through art school, but also people who later in life decided to be done with working in a corporate company or something, and they wanted to do something more professional, with their your creativity? There's pretty good artists in there. As an employee, I'm not allowed to, to, to say something about quality, but I've seen stuff. Like it's pretty good. So there's all different people. We say everyone who sees yourself as a professional artist can become a member, you have to show that you are I mean, you have to convince us. Yeah, that's more. But the, the main idea is that when you think is you have the right mindset, and then you can become it. And well, the next step is if you just want to create, or you want to make money with this, and that's also a different thing. I mean, some people are just content with creating and showing it to people. And that's okay,

Saskia de Feijter: 9:13

talking to yourself saying, I am an artist makes such a big difference. Taking yourself and your work seriously, will make a world of difference. So that's probably the first thing you should work on on your confidence. But then let's say we we are this person, and confidence is sky high, but now we need to figure out what we're worth. How do we go about it?

Jonna van 't Hof: 9:42

Yes. Well, that's always the difficult part. Because I think here the markets are the markets for art and the market for knitters items are is difficult. And it's it's a luxury product. Not all, not all people are willing to pay for that, this doesn't mean that it can cost what it costs. Because Well, there are people are more willing to pay for it who are who value it. So first, first thing is don't be afraid to ask. Don't set your prices too low. Because it's it's really difficult when you set your prices low you target for different markets than when you set your prices higher. And it's difficult to change markets in between. So well, what every business owner or a self employed person should do is make a business plan and see who... hahaha. Nobody wants to do this. I know. And with a business plan comes the scary part; market research. This is Part knowing what you want to make knowing what is good about your product, knowing what it is that you sell, and what is the value value of that in Also other ways then the money wise. So I think that's the start, then normally part of the business plan is an operating budget. And because well maybe should go go back a step we distinguish tree, three ways of setting a price. And one first one is comparison comparison, what's already there in the market, if you're wanting to sell sweaters that are being knitted. I think the first step is to go to Etsy. And to see what sweaters are costing there. Well, some prices will shock you as in how low they are. And some aren't as in how high they are. And I think it depends also on where do people are coming from hourly wages in Eastern Europe are lower than they are in the Netherlands. So people can I have no idea about economic there. But I think people need less money to live. Because rent is lower food is hopefully lower in cost. I have no idea. I don't know the economy about these countries. But this is this is what you see when you go on Etsy. Now the prices for from knitted sweaters from, for example, Eastern Europe are cheaper. And then sweaters who were knitted in, let's say Western Europe.

Saskia de Feijter: 13:11

Yeah. So you start by comparison, looking around and see what the prices are everywhere. And then there was the first way of setting a price.

Jonna van 't Hof: 13:23

Yes. Then I think this is good way to know the market. But I think it's also a way to set your prices too low. So I wouldn't advise taking this. Mainly, I would say look around because I'm sorry, but I can I can knit a sweater for 200 euros. It's not sustainable. It's I don't know, maybe half of it is the material cost then hours of knitting alone is mind blowing. So you can not make a living out of that. That's a hobbyist price.

Saskia de Feijter: 14:03

Whether it's a hobbyist price, I think people are falling off their chairs right now.

Jonna van 't Hof: 14:10

Yeah, I mean, can you make it for that money?

Saskia de Feijter: 14:14

I know that this is why Yeah. No.

Jonna van 't Hof: 14:17

This is why I started knitting sweaters I want to wear because I wasn't able to afford it.

Saskia de Feijter: 14:23

Exactly. Yes. Yes. And then in Rotterdam, we have a street called Witte de Wit straat and they have like some design shops and I'm not even going into the fact that I would never be able to fit any of the clothes but I went in there to look at the accessories because even big girls can have really nice accessories. And so I got in there and I actually I bought a bag that I still own I paid a good price for it like a good price in the sense of it cost what it needed to cost like not a good price in it was cheap. This is the vocabulary again me to change that vocabulary next to the shelf where my my bag, I still own it and I love it dearly. Next to that shelf, there were hand knit sweaters and the price of those sweaters was almost 900 euros. And then on the way home I started to calculate and I thought that's actually just what it costs without even taking into consideration that this is like a designer with a name. It could have even It should have probably even be more expensive. But yeah. So what is the next step when you set a price?

Jonna van 't Hof: 15:49

Well, next step is and this is what we've been talking about is set an hourly wage. And there are certain things you have to take into consideration when you do this. You have to think about Taxes. Because if you say 10 euros an hour, I don't know, in the Netherlands, it's for the lower incomes, the approximately 30% what's left of it, it's six euros and something for an hour and if you want to make a living out of that, how many hours do you have to make? Mm hmm. So a couple of years ago, I was really curious. And I found this website in the Netherlands zzptarief.nl. And it's still out there. I have to check the link. So you can

Saskia de Feijter: 16:37

Yeah, I will definitely. in the show notes. Yeah.

Jonna van 't Hof: 16:41

in there. They talk only about this setting an hourly wage, I was curious, because I was thinking, Okay, the minimum you want to make is minimum wage. But minimum wage is for people who are in, in jobs. So how does this relate to someone who works self employed, I did some calculations and some more calculation, I put a lot of hours in it. And I had a calculator. So. And I found that, and this was in 2013. So it's a couple of years ago, the minimum wage translated to an hourly wage for and self employed, who has to pay taxes VAT, and everything is 35 euros per hour. And then you're living minimum wage. And then next part, you can well, what's the what's normal work week 40 hours a week? Yeah. So because minimum wage says you work 40 hours, and then you get a certain amount of money, you have yearly income. But if you sell products, and you put the hourly wage, for knitting the sweater, for 35 euros an hour, you're not knitting 40 hours a week, there's a lot more more work to do. So either you have to put more hours into the sweater, calculate more hours, or 35 euros is too low, because it will not provide you the income you need. So there's the the difficulty, so I would say somewhere between 35 euros and 50 euros per hour is the minimum that you should ask, then we come to the third part. And this is because I said it already, you need to yearly income. And you need to provide for yourself, you need to pay Well, again, those taxes, you need to pay your living space, your foods, everything. So you need a certain amount of money to get through the year. And you can also do this on a monthly basis. But I think yearly basis is good, because taxes are mostly on a yearly basis. So you can also also change the mindset and say, Okay, I need like, and this is low income 20,000 euros per year net? Oh, I don't know. That's always that's English words as well.

Unknown: 19:08

NET NET?

Jonna van 't Hof: 19:09

Yeah. So I need 20,000 euros net to make a living, preferably more, of course, but and then you can say, Okay, how many sweaters Can I knit in a year? How many of those would I sell in a year, then you can calculate what is what would need to cost. And this is this is setting totally different prices. When you start to compare, I think this is more sustainable for you as a self employed person. And there's the difficulty because, well, is there a market for that? I don't know. I

Saskia de Feijter: 19:51

believe there's a market for everything. But then there's the next thing. You You're you're not there. If you're just a skilled knitter or designer, you have to be a marketeer as well. You have to be able to communicate and to sell your products or to get people to do it for you. And then you need to earn more to pay them. Exactly. So you basically need to be an all round entrepreneur as well. And I remember from when I was in art school, there was no information at all. We didn't learn anything. I mean, it's a while back, so I'm hoping things have changed and that at some at some art schools in my lens, it's better but we still do the same. Same thing.

Jonna van 't Hof: 20:41

I wish my art school had done something about this.

Saskia de Feijter: 20:44

So I think that definitely needs to be more focus on the business side of being a crafter or an artist or whatever you call yourself in, in your industry. I really think that I love it that you shared this three step, the three ways of setting your price, because I think we're what people never do, like the hobbyist knitter just took totally generalizing here. But there's no other way right now, what people, what they don't think about is the fact that they need to get to this yearly income and then calculate backwards from that. Yeah. So you're thinking of small successes in the beginning? Wow, I sold the sweater for the right amount of money. Yeah. But will you be able to sustain that throughout the year or multiple years. And when I asked people if they thought there's a market for, for this type of product at 47% of the followers on Instagram that actually saw it, because that's also a specific group thought, there's no market for it. And that's really sad. But at the same time, as I said, I believe there is because the world is full of people, there are a lot of people that are willing to pay fair prices, enough people to sustain you as a person. And even more people, they are there. It's just the trick. How do you find them? For me, when I just started with knitted collections, I thought only rich people will buy this, I have a completely different way of looking at these things right now. Because the amount of money that somebody spends on an item doesn't have to reflect their income, it could also reflect their their joy, their love their supports the fact that they are able to save up money, it could reflect that, too. So yeah, it's a matter of finding the right people. So I think there is a market. And hopefully, we will talk to artists in other interviews about what they think and what their experiences are. So if we talk about all these serious things, I wonder if people think, well, that's not much fun. You have to decide if you want to take it seriously as a professional, or just knit for fun. Now, what is your opinion when it comes to? I'm just going to knit put some things on Etsy, and as long as I get my material back, I'm fine with it, because I just love doing it.

Jonna van 't Hof: 23:28

Yeah, I do get it. I mean, I'm a hobbyist myself. And at some point, I had an idea that that I wanted to sell sewn baby clothes. And I didn't do any any market research or whatsoever. And at some point, I found out that the market is really crowded, you have to do a lot of marketing and stuff. And I decided, Okay, that's not for me, I chose for my my job. Yeah, in a way, I think it's okay to do this. But you have to realize you're you're doing something to the markets, and you're doing something to the market for people who have to make a living from it. And I think this is the difficulty. Well, then I use Etsy again, that there are hobbyists, and there's professionals on there. And from the accounts, you cannot tell, which is which this is very difficult for the consumer to see. So I think, and this is what we're struggling with as a union as well. Some education to the consumer is necessary they have to understand how the price is what's the difference in these prices. If it's just a hobbyist who sells some stuff, but has a day job, that's okay. And I think these two can be besides each other. I mean, you're probably reality check, they're probably going to be together forever.

Saskia de Feijter: 24:58

Let me just as it does the union do anything to educate the consumer. Do they have projects around that? At this point? No,

Jonna van 't Hof: 25:07

this is a struggle. Well, I think, since the beginning of of the Union, artists are struggling with this and so is the union. So it's really difficult. And I think what you see nowadays with clothing is that also some some clothig selling companies are telling how the costs are calculated. I think this is something you can do as a professional maker to show your consumers that's how your price is made. It's called calculators. Yeah. Maybe it's not necessary. I mean, if you have, if you target the right market, then maybe it's not necessary to, to do all this.

Saskia de Feijter: 25:47

you're one of the followers on Instagram, Yeah, Tineke had a really nice way of going about this. So she's an educated artist. And her teacher said 35 euros is a minimum hourly wage exactly the price that you were saying. So I love that because now it's true. But she also said that what she does is when somebody orders something from her on the receipt, she will state the hours that she's worked on it, and her hourly rate, and she will give the customer one hour free of charge as like a gift that does something to the consumers brain because they they see these hours, and oh my god, that's so much work. Wow, this is what it cost an hour. But hey, she gave me one hour. So I thought that was really a really nice way of educating your customer. And not selling yourself short, let maybe for that hour, but I mean, it's a we have to grow in this right. So it's a road we need to travel on. And I think with products, a lot of ways to to make sure the consumer accepts the price in a way is things like packaging, really good websites, like profile yourself, like put yourself in the market as an artist and take yourself seriously. So invest a little bit in that website, and all those kinds of things. in customer service, all those kinds of things make it that people see you as a professional. And it's just a big, big difference. Like Bregje. You know, we had her in the conscious knitting club, she makes the solid wood sock blockers, her wrapping. And the way she sells that item is so special. She finds cans like secondhand cans where she puts her spindles in is a can though it's not a can. It's a tin. It's in canned foods. This is same word in Dutch. But in English, it's called a tin. And she goes to secondhand markets and finds these and then you get it in this. There's like so much soul and love that goes into it. It totally connects to that price. So there's lots of ways you can go about that. But take it seriously. And what I want to come back to is the question where -let me see-, then I asked people, we are not doing ourselves a favor by underpricing our handmade products, and 98% agreed. So there's a lot of different emotions and different ideas around pricing. And I think because we're asking my followers, this group, mostly hobbyist, I mean, I have some professionals follow me as well. But people really just don't know. And they tend to want to make an extra buck with something they love doing because they just want to do it more. They want to do more of it. And while they do it, they can make an extra buck. That's great. But as you said Jonna it really does something to the price. And I want to share this these numbers with you. I looked on Etsy so we were talking about sweaters a lot of the time I looked on Etsy for socks hand knit socks. There were let me see 91 items for socks that cost 100 to 200 euros. So in comparison, there were 7433 for hand knit socks, mind you hand knit socks under 20 euros. Now I'm using socks as an example because one of our followers reacted and said I'm a fast knitter, a pair of socks, I can knit a pair of socks in six hours. So that would be 90 euros if we're talking about 15 euros an hour. Wow. So six hours. I talked about this before. I'm not good at math from my head. So six days 35 a pair of hand knit socks should cost 210 euros at a minimum. So here we go.

Jonna van 't Hof: 30:32

Sorry, vat not included. Like I mean VAT not included. So in the Netherlands, I think I think shocks is 21 percentage. Yeah. Yeah. I might just calculation.

Saskia de Feijter: 30:49

Do you did that calculation?

Unknown: 30:52

With our calculators?

Jonna van 't Hof: 30:54

That is 44 years of VAT? Yeah. So 254 euros for a pair of socks. Yeah.

Saskia de Feijter: 31:03

Yes. And there's a lot we can learn from this, like the value of the handmade item. And the fact that we can buy handmade items, let's focus on the handmade items for really low prices, which is so not fair for people that really want to make a living out of it. But as you said, it is a it's a long journey, but just being conscious about this. And if you're selling your items, and you're listening, like up, it up them up. More and more and more, please. Yes.

Jonna van 't Hof: 31:42

When I think 20 euros for a pair of socks. I mean, I can buy storebought socks that are probably I mean storebought socks are, are made with a knitting machine. Yeah, I can. Okay, maybe maybe woolen socks are 15 euros or maybe Some are 20? I'm not sure. Yeah. I'm guessing here. But I mean, you're also in a way of thinking you're sending us ourselves short. Because Yeah, knitting machine. It's, I have noknitting machine. But I'm, I'm sure it's done faster.

Saskia de Feijter: 32:21

Yes, absolutely. Than knitting by hand. Thatys why they invented the bleeding machine, right? Yeah. They needed the price to go down.

Jonna van 't Hof: 32:28

So you cannot compare these items. And on Etsy knitted items that are made with knitting machine, socks or

Saskia de Feijter: 32:35

Knit by hand. Yes. Exactly. With the use of otherwise, are sold as handmade. Yeah. And I don't know if that's okay. I mean, it's a whole different discussion. But be honest about these things. This is something you have to take into consideration when you're when you compare your prices with others isn't really handmade? Or is it really hand knits? hands on the machine, with my finger. I think that whole what is hadn't made vernsus ont hadn't made obviously, we don't want to support the fast fashion industry. So there's that the fact that somebody spent their time and they love making these items is also valuable. Yes, it might be more valuable. And I'm gonna go on, like a little edgy thing. It might be more valuable. And if it's knit by somebody, you know, so shouldn't haand knit socks just be gifts and not be sold.

Jonna van 't Hof: 33:52

Yeah, that's a that's a way of thinking. I'm not sure. I mean. Yeah.

Saskia de Feijter: 33:57

Yeah. And I think there we go back to the are you knitting for production? Or are you selling an original design? That where you show a part of yourself that's really original, and basically an art? So there's so much to talk about here? And

Jonna van 't Hof: 34:21

yeah, what's something to tell the customer I would think about? This is how women sweater will last for probably 100 years, maybe more. So it's really sustainable. Yeah, that's what are you buying store. This is my total for station. I love wool. I don't want synthetics. They make me sweat. So and this is the second part, I started moving for myself because I couldn't find any woolen sweaters 100% wool, couldn't really find it. But if there are synthetics in there, it's probably not going to keep its shape or beetus. Beautiful for the same amount of time as woolen sweater. Well, I

Saskia de Feijter: 35:05

think I think it might depending on the quality of the synthetic versus That's true. But I think it has more to do with the way we view these items. We view them as throwaway items so they do not as expensive once we get sick of them or they have a little hole and we move on to the next one. Whereas if you have a heavy knit sweater you will probably spend some time mending it to make it last longer. You will take care of it you will like in winter you will wrap it up and make it better habits save for months and other things. And I think it's more of if you go through the whole I'm here I go again, I know that I bring this up a lot. But this has totally changed me. If you learn what items in your life are functional and beautiful and spark joy, you will have a different attitude towards them, you will love them longer. And you don't need that kick of the rush, the shopping, rush all of that you can learn to appreciate a quality made item. And so I would pay for a handmade item, I would pay a fair price for it if I would totally love it, even if I could make it myself because I appreciate somebody else came up with that idea. And I bought a quote from Stephen West when he did a sale from his samples. It's I mean, a lot of people would think it's a hideous thing kind of is in a way. And I'm sure I could could make it myself. But only after I've seen it because it came from his brain and he has such a specific idea on color and texture. I would never have thought of that myself. So I think this is one of the biggest mind shifts.

Jonna van 't Hof: 37:04

I think so i'm i'm still making it for myself. I mean, to be honest. I mean, I want to be more conscious of the things I buy. But it's also it's, it's really easy to buy the cheap stuff. Yeah, it's so very easy. So it's, it's difficult.

Saskia de Feijter: 37:23

Yes. Well, I believe in in, in educating people and giving them information about all these different aspects, we can slowly make a difference and start living differently, start making better choices, I totally encourage people to get a business and do things they love. But it is a profession. And you really have to take it seriously and do all the things that are not so fun. So if you really love knitting, and you want to share it with other people, and you don't want all of the serious chips considered gift knitting Yeah, or, or really dive into it, and go for it and make it happen. Because I personally really believe there's a market for it, although it is small.

Jonna van 't Hof: 38:11

Yeah, this this, there's also one last thing, if you have a different set of products, then you can have some products that are a bit cheaper than they should be, to get to customers to come to you. I wouldn't recommend it by starting because I think this is something you really have to think about. And you have to be conscious about it when you do this. But I can imagine that if for example, you need socks and sweaters that I don't want us to to you make a bit cheaper than it should be just to to well get to customers to get to know you. And this is what why what's what's storage of everywhere do I mean, it's what supermarkets do. That's why meats in the Netherlands is so cheap. I mean, it's ridiculously cheap and milk, for example. But so this is this is okay. But you're selling yourself short if you do this for every product you have.

Saskia de Feijter: 39:12

Yeah, yeah. So getting a strategy, basically. Yes. So to to round a fire conversation, what would you say is a doable step people can take in terms of becoming more professional? Yeah,

Jonna van 't Hof: 39:31

it's difficult because I can think of many ways and I don't think there's there's one perfect way but if you if you really want to do it, I would say first step, and I think this is scary part register for Texas. And this is a total business parts. If you're committed to take that step, I think you are that's the first step to being professional. And then comes to research because probably in your head, you already know what what product you want to make. This has to do. To be honest, this is the easy part because this this is what you what you love and what you want to make. And so along the way with all these business steps, keep that in mind. Because this is what will keep you going and realize I'm the advertising part, and it's easier said than done. This would be my advice, but I can understand that it's reality. It works difference.

Saskia de Feijter: 40:36

It does and I don't think crafters Go out to find a business advisor, it would not be the first step that they take. It's probably something you do when when things get difficult or you don't get that momentum going. And then you're like, Okay, so what do I do? I want to make this business work. And then they go business business. And so the this is kind of how it worked for me, you start as a really enthusiastic lover of a craft. And then from there, you take your steps and the steps that seem logical until you reach a point where you think Okay, so now I need some help. Could you share with us some resources that we can share with people in the show notes? Yes, well,

Jonna van 't Hof: 41:25

I only know because we operate mainly in the Netherlands, or actually only in the Netherlands, I only know Dutch websites, but I know Chamber of Commerce. Events has very good information about how to start your business. And there's all steps and things you have to think about for yourself. If you're in the Netherlands, and you want to start a business by yourself, you probably start in a month sack. Yeah. So you have to don't have to check that out anymore. Just know that that's the way to go. And I think you can find a lot of information on the internet at first, if you're willing to do the research. You don't really need a business advisor. It's a first start. It's like you said, when you get stuck, yeah. When you don't know how to move forward. And I think it's really helpful to to find people who have like, we're struggling with the same things are business owners in your professional community,

Saskia de Feijter: 42:29

people come in? Yes, so important to find people that are going through the same thing, enjoying the same things. So I just got an idea. I will definitely open up a group in our community specific for people that want to start a business in crafts, and then you can find everybody there the communities free. So just coming over and find other makers that want to be professional in the field.

Jonna van 't Hof: 42:57

Yeah, I remember, one out at this knitting related social and mighty network showed, you know, to the everyday nature. Yes, they do. Yeah, they have shepherds group. For people who are have a profession, some really nice people are in their thing yet.

Saskia de Feijter: 43:13

You have two options.

Jonna van 't Hof: 43:16

And I'm sure it has a whole load of Facebook groups. I don't like Facebook does much. Yeah, there are a lot out there. Okay, I

Saskia de Feijter: 43:24

think people will have to first really get a cup of something and process this. I can't wait to hear some reactions, people, everybody, you can go to the show notes. And we have a button there, we can tape your reaction. I would love to hear them. And I want to share them in the upcoming show. So please share your thoughts with us. Thank you so much Yama. It was so awesome. Thank you so much.

Jonna van 't Hof: 43:50

You're welcome. I like to thank you for having me.

Saskia de Feijter: 43:54

My conversation with Yana was amazing. There were so many takeaways from this conversation, I am mentioning the top 10 takeaways on the show notes. So if you want to have a quick view of all the important points that we talked about, go over to the show notes at WWW dot j A dash, actually, it's not dash, I just learned its hyphen. Anyway, you know what I mean? So that was an amazing conversation is with full of eye openers, and things we kind of know, but really don't want to know. And also a lot of ways that we could actually change things. And as I'm all about change in our industry for the good. We were talking in our conversation, as you heard about opening a group for business owners and professionals in the industry. And I proceeded to open one in my online community, which you can enter from our website that I just mentioned, and also from the show notes via direct link. I've called it BBB, better business building. And I'm looking forward to seeing you appear in that group. Now. I have been thinking we were talking about pricing and I'm happy to do the same thing. So I work about 22 hours a week to provide you all with information through the podcast, the commute At the country's knitting club and all of these things, but I still decided to keep this a free and open group to start off with, and it's probably going to stay free. So you want to explain this to you. The conscious knitting club is a place where I put in a lot of hours and effort, research, writing, making downloadable files that you can work with. This group, I like to start off as an open group where we can all know each other and talk about things that we need. And we want and how asking questions about how we can grow our industry in a good way and our own businesses. I think that that's a good way to start to just welcome everybody in. And my plan for the future would be to then start a mastermind, a group of people that really want to get to work and want to put in more energy more efforts to make real changes and get this movement going. On the professional side of, of our industry. And so that'll be something for later, we'll just start to invite everybody in. So if you're a professional in the knitting or textile industry, you are so welcome to join us to open up this conversation. I can't wait to meet you there. The Don't worry about the thing that a lot of business owners have that they're they're a little bit anxious about talking to. Yeah, I would say talking to their competition. So but think about, we're not focusing on the, on your collections, or on a specifics, we are talking about general ideas. And it's more about, I want to, I want to have a state of politics, but more about the philosophy of how we run our businesses. And you don't have to share everything. You can just be yourself and learn from other people. Obviously, if you share more, you get more it's like, that's how it works. But you can choose what to share. So don't worry about competition. If you feel like things could be better, and if you don't know where to start building a conscious business and just simple things you can do make a big difference, but we have to get this conversation going. And I'm opening up the doors, so please feel welcome. Join us and leave me messages on the show notes by clicking the record button. If you have any questions, I'd love to answer the questions in one of our next episodes.

Unknown: 48:55

Thank you, bye.

Saskia de Feijter: 48:58

Smaller life is more than just a podcast. It's connected to your hope and in the yarn and tool shop from Rotterdam in the Netherlands. With an online community that's all about bringing back the consciousness in a crafting practice and businesses. The website is www j A dash w o l.com. Find our conscious products. Learn more about the free community and sign up for our conscious knitting club membership and our weekly newsletter. You can follow me on Instagram at Evo what's a DME. If you're a regular listener, consider making a monthly contribution and becoming a sponsor through our Patreon page. If you're able to make a financial contribution, it will mean a lot. The show is free for you, but it's not free to produce. If you own a business that fits the narrative, I will happily make a mini commercial for you. If you are a maker, small business owner or otherwise experience in running a business with a conscience or know someone that fits the description I want to tell my listeners about your experiences. Get in touch with me via a website or send me a DM on Instagram. Knowing more and choosing with a conscious makes the world better. If you have any questions about an episode or want to leave a note to me and the other listeners click the button in the latest show notes on the website. And one of the easiest things you can do to support the podcast is to leave an honest review on Apple podcasts. subscribe to the podcast on the platform of your choice so you'll never miss an episode and share it in your social network or even just mentioning it over coffee with a friend of only one person and I count on you to help me spread the message. Thanks for listening