Conversations with Dr. Cowan & Friends

Ep2: Sally Fallon Morell

September 08, 2020 Dr. Tom Cowan Season 1 Episode 2
Conversations with Dr. Cowan & Friends
Ep2: Sally Fallon Morell
Chapters
Conversations with Dr. Cowan & Friends
Ep2: Sally Fallon Morell
Sep 08, 2020 Season 1 Episode 2
Dr. Tom Cowan

Sally Fallon Morell, MA is best known as the author of the best-selling cookbook, Nourishing Traditions®: The Cookbook that Challenges Politically Correct Nutrition and the Diet Dictocrats. This well-researched, thought-provoking guide to traditional foods contains a startling message: animal fats and cholesterol are not villains but vital factors in the diet, necessary for normal growth, proper function of the brain and nervous system, protection from disease and optimum energy levels.
The culinary ideas introduced in Nourishing Traditions® have stimulated the growth of a variety of small businesses providing traditional nutrient-dense foods including lacto-fermented condiments, kombucha and other lacto-fermented soft drinks, bone broth and genuine sourdough bread. Raw milk production is flourishing as are direct farm-to-consumer buying arrangements.
Sally is frequent contributors to holistic health publications. Her work is widely respected for providing accurate and understandable explanations of complicated subjects in the field of nutrition and health. Several articles on the dangers of modern soy products have generated intense controversy in the health food industry. Her presentations on Nourishing Traditions Diets and The Oiling of America have earned highly complimentary reviews throughout the US and overseas.

Show Notes Transcript

Sally Fallon Morell, MA is best known as the author of the best-selling cookbook, Nourishing Traditions®: The Cookbook that Challenges Politically Correct Nutrition and the Diet Dictocrats. This well-researched, thought-provoking guide to traditional foods contains a startling message: animal fats and cholesterol are not villains but vital factors in the diet, necessary for normal growth, proper function of the brain and nervous system, protection from disease and optimum energy levels.
The culinary ideas introduced in Nourishing Traditions® have stimulated the growth of a variety of small businesses providing traditional nutrient-dense foods including lacto-fermented condiments, kombucha and other lacto-fermented soft drinks, bone broth and genuine sourdough bread. Raw milk production is flourishing as are direct farm-to-consumer buying arrangements.
Sally is frequent contributors to holistic health publications. Her work is widely respected for providing accurate and understandable explanations of complicated subjects in the field of nutrition and health. Several articles on the dangers of modern soy products have generated intense controversy in the health food industry. Her presentations on Nourishing Traditions Diets and The Oiling of America have earned highly complimentary reviews throughout the US and overseas.

Tom Cowan:
Hi, everybody, here we are, another edition of the Dr. Tom Cowan Show. Or it may be called the Conversations With Tom, I'd actually like that better. Today I'm honored to have my dear friend and colleague Sally Fallon Morell, and I was telling Sally, usually in the introductions people say I went to Duke and then I studied this; I don't really like that stuff. I didn't like going to Duke and I don't tell people about that. Here's my introduction to Sally, and I like to say if I get anything wrong, please correct me.

Tom Cowan:
We're talking about 25 years ago, and I happened to read an article in a magazine called Spectrum, which is no longer around, as far as I know. I had been a doctor for years and basically studied food, like I'd been doing for a long time. And I read this article, and I had the unmistakable thought in my mind, something like, damn, this person knows more about food than I do. That really sort of pissed me off, because I didn't like that. But anyways, I don't remember who contacted who-

Sally Morell:
I remember this very well, but go ahead, go ahead.

Tom Cowan:
One of us contacted the other, and then we ended up having about an hour discussion while I had a patient waiting in the waiting room, or in the exam room or whatever room. It reinforced my original notion that this person knew more about food than I do, and I luckily got over myself and said we should talk. Then the next step was you actually came, and I think your first public lecture was at our place in New Hampshire.

Sally Morell:
Yes.

Tom Cowan:
We decided to write the Fourfold book, and then I went and visited, and one of the things that really struck me was I had been interested in this book, Fermentation by Steinkraus, I think his name was. But it was very expensive, like $500, there was only 10 of them in print. And you actually had the book. Turns out it wasn't such a great book, it was okay, but it was more theoretical than I hoped.

Tom Cowan:
That started my journey in nourishing traditions, and wasn't that far from what I was doing on my own, but it definitely revolutionized my eating as well as how you have really revolutionized and changed the American culture. There's very few people who have changed it in the way that you have. I tell people the reason they have grass-fed meat and pastured eggs and lard and kombucha and fermented vegetables and bone broth, and I'm probably missing some. Organ meats, it's really because of you and the Weston Price Foundation and nourishing traditions.

Tom Cowan:
[crosstalk 00:03:28] With that, please correct me if I missed anything, but I am honored to have you as a guest.

Sally Morell:
Well, thank you, Tom. The story of how you contacted me, so this book came out in '96, and the guy from Spectrum was the first person to interview me. But you have to understand, in writing this book I was not getting any support. My family just kind of tolerated me and they thought I was crazy [crosstalk 00:03:55]-

Tom Cowan:
Yeah.

Sally Morell:
-this silly book, and then I came home and there was a message on the answering machine that Dr. Cowan would like to speak with me. So I called and spoke to your receptionist, and I said, "Dr. Cowan's probably busy, but just tell him that I'm home now and he can call me when he wants to," and she said, "No, no, he wants to talk to you right away." So that's how that conversation happened.

Sally Morell:
You, Tom, were the first person who gave me unqualified support for what I'd written. I hadn't really received that before, just another book out there.

Tom Cowan:
Yeah.

Sally Morell:
The landscape has changed and is not just nourishing traditions. I think nourishing traditions came out at the right time, people were seeking what is a healthy diet, and the story I just told you earlier, I have a friend or had a friend whose job in the Eisenhower administration, one of the things they asked him to do was figure out what kind of foods to put in the bomb shelters in case of a nuclear attack. What did we need to survive? He went to whatever health agency it was and asked them, what should we put in the bomb shelters? And they didn't know. They couldn't tell me what to put in the bomb shelters.

Sally Morell:
There's just been a lot of ignorance about food, and I think we're on the uphill slope now. We reached the bottom with all the processed foods, cereals and everything, and people were getting sick, but the doctors couldn't answer the question, well, what should I eat [inaudible 00:05:32]?

Tom Cowan:
Yeah. There's so many things, I remember a debate ... it's partly a process of understanding things. There was a debate on whether heart disease is caused by eating fat or not eating fat, and I remember this. The fact of the matter is, it was very clear to the person who was the vegan advocate, he eloquently described how, in 1920, there was essentially no heart disease in this country. I was astounded that the interviewer didn't ask him, how many vegans were there in 1920? Because I know the exact answer to that, and it's zero by choice.

Sally Morell:
Yes, and what were people cooking in in 1920? They were cooking in lard and there was no heart disease.

Tom Cowan:
And the health foods were butter, eggs and cream.

Sally Morell:
Yes.

Tom Cowan:
That's what farms tried to save up so they could make some money and sell their eggs and cream to people who wanted it.

Sally Morell:
And they knew that was a healthy breakfast for children, growing children.

Tom Cowan:
All right. So we have just come out with a new book, our third and the craziest one of all, I think, called The Contagion Myth. Maybe the best one, who knows. What I would like, if you're okay, is to, I think this story, a few months ago, I think you had written an article about something to do with COVID. I think you sent it to me and I said, I don't really think this is right.

Sally Morell:
Yeah.

Tom Cowan:
My sense of it was, you heard my response and thought, I don't know. Tom said a lot of funny things, but I don't know if I get this one. I think you transitioned a little bit from that since then.

Sally Morell:
Well, the article was, and it's still up there on my blog, eating for a healthy immune system. And at that time, to me, a healthy immune system was what's going to protect you from viruses and bacteria, right? That's what people think is a healthy immune system. And you said, this isn't right, Sally, but you can go ahead and publish it, but it's not right. Well, then we discovered, you discovered and pointed me to the talks of Andy Hoffman, and it was just like the clouds parted. No one has proved a virus, viruses are actually these helpful exosomes, and I realized, I've often said in my talks, we've had a complete paradigm shift in this country about bacteria.

Sally Morell:
I'm sure you were taught in medical school, bacteria are bad and they attack you and they make you sick. And now we know that bacteria are our friends. The only time bacteria are bad is under bad conditions, and then they'll produce toxins. But bacteria themselves are not bad. So then I realized, well, this is the same thing with the viruses. The viruses are good, these exosomes are helping us, and they appear when you're under the stress of toxins, especially something new in the environment. They help the cells communicate, hey, we've got a problem here, we need to make an adjustment and so forth.

Sally Morell:
So that really opened my eyes, and I think I've told you sometimes I'll wake up in the morning and the article's there, complete in my head. I think we don't listen enough to what's in our heads when we wake up. So I wrote the article, Is Coronavirus Contagious? And just about the same time, you were giving your talk that went viral while that article went viral too. [crosstalk 00:09:32] 200,000 times. Yours got the millions, mine got the hundred thousands. And that's when we decided we need to put all this together and do a book.

Tom Cowan:
So essentially, this sounds almost weird to have to say this, but basically, you were confronted with some information that contradicted the way you had thought before, and you simply just followed the facts.

Sally Morell:
That's what you have to do. You have to, wow, oh wow, this is different than I thought, but it makes sense. So then, immunity means something else, and basically you and I came to the policy statement, I guess you'd say, that what causes disease, it's either deficiencies or poisoning. That's what makes us sick.

Tom Cowan:
Right. Starvation or poisoning.

Sally Morell:
Yeah, starvation or poisoning, and deficiencies are a type of starvation.

Tom Cowan:
Right.

Sally Morell:
Then you say, well, what is a healthy immune system, and the healthy immune system is an immune system ... is a way of dealing with these toxins. For example, vitamin A, we always said vitamin A is very important for your immune system. Well, vitamin A is the number-one vitamin for dealing with toxins. So it's kind of the same thing.

Tom Cowan:
Yeah. In fact, as I'm saying now more and more, I actually question whether we actually even have a, quote, immune system. What we really have is, hopefully, anyways, is an efficient detoxification mechanism.

Sally Morell:
Yes. One of the best chapters in the book is the one you wrote on the immunity, and you had the gall to say, well, there's no disease that we've become immune to. We can get those diseases again. A perfect example is smallpox. Now, there was a superstition that milkmaids got cow pox, and that made them immune to smallpox, and we knew they were immune to smallpox because they had such a beautiful skin, so they never got smallpox. And the doctors of the day said this is just a silly peasant superstition, because we've seen people get smallpox over and over again.

Sally Morell:
This disease that is kind of the quintessential example of something you get immune to, you don't get immune to it.

Tom Cowan:
Right, right.

Sally Morell:
So why didn't the milkmaids get it? Because the milkmaids had daily access to the world's healthiest food, which was raw milk. They were very healthy and very protected.

Tom Cowan:
I think you pointed out also in the book and probably other places that this would not have been unfamiliar to Weston Price.

Sally Morell:
Exactly. The big disease in his day was TB.

Tom Cowan:
Right.

Sally Morell:
And that was considered to be, it was either genetic or it was caused by this TB bacillus. When doctors don't have an explanation for what causes illness, they blame it on the three Gs: germs, genes and God. This was first genes and then the germs. Which is kind of ridiculous, because only one out of 10 people who test positive to this bacillus gets TB, so it can't be the cause. They're called latent ... [crosstalk 00:13:10] Yeah.

Sally Morell:
Price was really emphatic, he said the root cause of TB is a malformation of the lungs, it goes along with the malformation of the facial bones and the teeth, and when the lungs start to degenerate because they're not really healthy, then the bacteria arrive to clean up the dead tissue. And they're blamed, just like we blame cholesterol because it's always there, especially around blood vessels that are healing and everything. Blame the firemen for the fire.

Tom Cowan:
Do you think Price was actually aware, because really, what you're talking about, if you want to call it something, is terrain theory versus germ theory.

Sally Morell:
Yes.

Tom Cowan:
You're essentially describing that, in this case, the terrain of the people who get TB were people who were maybe fat-soluble vitamin deficient, they had results and deformities of their skeletal structure, their formation of their jaw, and actually, even though it's harder to document this because we can't see it, they maybe even have deformities in their lungs, resulting-

Sally Morell:
That's what he said, he thought it was deformities in the lungs. I don't know if Price was aware of this debate between terrain and the bugs. It certainly went on for a long time, and you and I have been looking into Pasteur and his notebooks, and Pasteur was the inventor and promoter of the germ theory. Every disease was caused by a specific bacteria, that's what he insisted on. There was not a lot of agreement about that at the time, most doctors did not agree with this, but Pasteur really pushed it in spite of the fact that we know from his notebooks that he was unable to prove it.

Sally Morell:
He wrote privately in his notebooks he could never make an animal sick by just giving them the bacteria. He had to make it virulent, and he made it virulent by what he called passing it through other animals. He would mix it with some kind of antiseptic or toxin or poison and inject it into, say, a rabbit, and then he would take the spinal cord of that rabbit and he had all these methods for drying the powdered spinal cord, and then he'd inject that into another rabbit and he did that several times. That's how he made what he called virulent anthrax or virulent rabies.

Sally Morell:
Basically, he was just creating poisons that definitely made these animals sick, but it wasn't just plain old anthrax or rabies.

Tom Cowan:
Right. I think you wrote about this in your last blog, that you actually really went through the story of Pasteur and anthrax.

Sally Morell:
Yes.

Tom Cowan:
Maybe you could share that a little bit.

Sally Morell:
Okay. Pasteur said anthrax was caused by this bacteria, and he was challenged to do this demonstration at a place called Pouilly-le-Fort in France, and his colleagues thought he was crazy to accept this challenge because they had not been able to demonstrate this in their laboratory. But he accepted it [crosstalk 00:16:28]-

Tom Cowan:
When you say this, you mean the ability of pure anthrax spores to make an animal sick.

Sally Morell:
Well, what he did was he wanted to show that the vaccine would protect them against what he called anthrax. So he went and he has 75 sheep that he vaccinated and 75 that he didn't vaccinate, and then three weeks later he injected both groups of sheep with what he called anthrax. And all the ones not vaccinated died, and all the ones who were vaccinated didn't die.

Sally Morell:
He'd never gotten this to work in his laboratory, but he got it to be 100% with all 150 sheep. We know he knew how to make the 75 unvaccinated sheep die, he basically poisoned them.

Tom Cowan:
Do we know how he poisoned them?

Sally Morell:
Well, he created what he called virulent anthrax by passing it through, I think he used guinea pigs for the anthrax.

Tom Cowan:
So he basically put some poisons with the spore, passed that through an animal, took some of their tissue and maybe with spores in it, poisoned it again-

Sally Morell:
And who knows, he may have added some other poison. He was really under pressure, and the whole world was looking at him.

Tom Cowan:
Yeah.

Sally Morell:
We don't know what he injected into the vaccinated sheep, but there's no question that he cheated, because he started producing this vaccine and he made a lot of money on the vaccine, and the vaccine didn't work. His desk just piled up with letters from people saying, "All my sheep died the day after you gave them the vaccine." So the vaccine died out, they stopped using it, but so did anthrax. Anthrax has just gone away, it's now considered a very rare disease. But at the time, it was a very serious economic problem for the farmers. So why did it go away?

Sally Morell:
What I am proposing, it was the sheep dip, because the sheep dip in those days was powdered arsenic. So when they gave it to the animals, they got this disease, it looked identical to arsenic. The lesions, the symptoms, everything were identical to arsenic, and sometimes people got it because they were mixing the sheep dip, and sometimes other animals got it because they were also dipped in this. I wrote to a friend of mine in France, I have not heard back from him, I said, "Does anybody in France figured this out?" Because the French knew a lot about arsenic; the best-selling novel in mid-century France was about a woman who poisons herself with arsenic, and that was Madame Bovary. The French really knew what arsenic poisoning looked like, and they knew about it and nobody seemed to make this connection. We still get some cases in third-world countries where they still use arsenic for leather tanning and things like that.

Tom Cowan:
Right. In some ways, it's sort of parallel with the polio story.

Sally Morell:
Yes.

Tom Cowan:
The polio story had a lot to do with lead arsenic poisoning of the crops.

Sally Morell:
And then DDT.

Tom Cowan:
And then DDT spraying. Some of us even remember running behind DDT trucks when we were young, because it was this sweet-smelling gas. I remember that growing up in Detroit, and Detroit was one of the centers of the largest polio outbreaks in history. Interestingly, when they did a virological examination of the outbreak in Detroit, only 49% actually had any evidence of any virus. 51% didn't, and they just-

Sally Morell:
And what were they calling virus, we don't know.

Tom Cowan:
Yeah, what were they calling virus, we don't even know that.

Sally Morell:
Right, right. Yeah, this whole polio thing is really seared in my mind because my youngest brother, who was about two and a half, I came home one morning and he was in the middle of my mother's bed, he'd shrunk to half his size.

Tom Cowan:
Wow.

Sally Morell:
I'll never forget seeing that, and my mother was in tears. She said, "The ambulance is coming. I don't understand this, we were just at the pediatrician yesterday for his polio vaccination, and the doctor said he was in perfect health." I've never forgotten that. I always made the connection with the polio vaccination and my brother there just ... an awful thing to see. And he did recover, he did recover, but I've never forgotten that.

Tom Cowan:
His symptoms started after the vaccine?

Sally Morell:
Yes, yes.

Tom Cowan:
I had a friend who wrote me the other day that he actually ran into Jonas Salk at a dinner party, was the inventor of one of the most famous polio vaccines, and he asked hims something about it, and he said, "Well, turns out that all of the polio in the last 20 years have been the result of my vaccine."

Sally Morell:
Yeah.

Tom Cowan:
So he actually knew it. Sabin, who was basically the discoverer of the other polio vaccine, is on record as saying that vaccination has had no effect on mortality rate or morbidity rate in any country where it's been used.

Sally Morell:
And they also said that they had their hearts in their mouth every time they gave a child the vaccination, polio vaccination, because they didn't know if he'd end up paralyzed or dead or what.

Tom Cowan:
Yeah. All right, so we go from that to your real area of expertise, even though I think you got pretty good at this other one. We're in a health challenge now, people dispute how bad it is and whether the numbers are inflated and all this stuff, but it seems like there are at least some people getting sick.

Sally Morell:
Strangely sick, yeah. It's a weird [crosstalk 00:22:31]-

Tom Cowan:
We describe the hypoxia and the fizzing and the hyper-inflammatory, which all look like symptoms of radiation poisoning combined with glyphosate and starvation and all that. But I haven't heard anybody bring in the food component, so for instance, in our book you describe the relationship of cholesterol, cell membranes and these symptoms. You describe the relationship between zinc and what foods have zinc, and how that might play into this. I wonder if you could describe what should people be eating? And why, you know.

Sally Morell:
Yeah, the one thing that we learned when we were writing this book, we contacted Jerry Pollack, who's the water expert. And Jerry is the one who has revealed how water structures itself against a hydrophilic surface, and our bodies are full of these hydrophilic surfaces: cell membranes, tissue membranes and so forth. And the water structures itself against these surfaces, sometimes only five or six atoms thick. But these structures, the structured water is like a wire, it's conducting electricity, it's conducting information, and our whole bodies are like a fine mesh of wires because of the structure of the water.

Sally Morell:
So the question is, how do we get really robust, strong hydrophilic surfaces, smooth hydrophilic surfaces? I come back to my favorite subject, which is saturated fat. The saturated fats, they pack together because they're straight, they pack together like logs, and they create the really nice impermeable cell membranes, impermeable unless you've got some kind of channel there or something. And good, strong hydrophilic surfaces, so it's like having really good insulation on your wiring. That's what we need in this age of just electro-smog. We're just surrounded by, think of living in a trash dump.

Tom Cowan:
Yeah.

Sally Morell:
That's what our air is like, with all this ...

Tom Cowan:
In other words, would you say it's accurate to say, it's a bit like a copper wire, that everybody knows that if you have an exposed copper wire, first of all, it's not safe and you're really ask for trouble.

Sally Morell:
And it shorts out and the electricity gets wasted, really.

Tom Cowan:
And it's very inefficient. So anybody who makes wiring puts a very robust layer of essentially rubber tubing around the copper wire.

Sally Morell:
Right.

Tom Cowan:
Essentially what you're saying is the saturated fat is the rubber tubing.

Sally Morell:
Yes, yes. It acts like the rubber tubing.

Tom Cowan:
And the copper wire is more like the coherent water structure, which then, because it's protected and coherent and safe, it's allowed to essentially become the electrical system of the body-

Sally Morell:
And it's not easily disrupted. So what's been going on for the last 120 years, or 100 years, let's put it like that. We have been told over and over not to eat saturated fats, to eat the industrial seed oils, which are highly unsaturated. I remember Mary Enig saying to me, "These seed oils, what they do is you end up with floppy cell membranes." They are permeable, they let stuff through that shouldn't be let through, they just don't work. Your cell membranes don't work, and she said, "Who knows what the effects of this will be?"

Sally Morell:
Well, I think we can very well postulate that the effects will be a lot of sensitivity to electricity and to dirty electricity and to electromagnetic frequencies and so forth.

Tom Cowan:
As well as other toxins, I'm sure.

Sally Morell:
Oh, yes. Because those membranes are there to keep stuff out, keep a different electric potential on either side. They're kind of the architecture of our tissues.

Tom Cowan:
Right. So essentially, I think we made the point that, like a lens in the eye, it's based on the function, which is to be transparent to light. So that's a certain ... the membrane or the cholesterol and the proteins, they organize the water to be transparent in that case.

Sally Morell:
Yes. In other cases-

Tom Cowan:
Like, the liver, they create a different structure because a different function is needed.

Sally Morell:
And you mentioned cholesterol, so along with saturated fats, the cholesterol is very important in keeping those cell membranes waterproof and robust and secure.

Tom Cowan:
It's interesting, too, I'm sure you remember [inaudible 00:28:03], and one of the things he wrote about was the protective effect of LDL on what he called infections, or microorganisms.

Sally Morell:
Yes.

Tom Cowan:
A lot of times, when I read it prevents you against infections, I translate that myself into saying it protects you against toxicity, which then becomes an infection.

Sally Morell:
And he actually used the word endotoxins. He actually didn't say it protects you against bacteria or microbes, he says it protects you against the endotoxins that are produced by these microbes.

Tom Cowan:
So a strategy of lowering your LDL, which is essentially vegan diet and statin drugs, is a strategy to make you more susceptible to, quote, infections, which means, really, toxicity and endotoxins.

Sally Morell:
Yes, exactly. It's interesting that the first symptoms of this disease are flu-like symptoms, the dry throat, fever; that's what toxins do to you. You start to have a fever, and then it's very interesting that this disease is characterized by widespread clotting in the body, apparently. Wouldn't iron be disrupted by electromagnetic fields? Of course it would be. It seems to be pulled out of the hemoglobin, and hemoglobin travels through the arteries, but it's not delivering oxygen anymore.

Tom Cowan:
Right.

Sally Morell:
At the same time, you have a lot of free iron, and free iron, as we know, is extremely toxic and does all sorts of terrible things, especially in the lungs where this is happening. One of the scariest things is the autopsies of the people who definitely had this disease; they don't even look like lungs anymore. They are so disrupted.

Tom Cowan:
Right, so this free iron might be causing or be part of the reason for this hyper-inflammatory destruction of the tissue.

Sally Morell:
And I think it's very interesting that so many of these patients report a fizzy feeling, like you've touched an electric wire or something.

Tom Cowan:
All right, so we've got raw milk butter, grass-fed butter, lard, what else should we be eating?

Sally Morell:
Well, I also talk about broth, because broth, of course, gives us a lot of glycine. I did ask Stephanie Seneff about this, who's written about the detrimental effects of glycine, because the glyphosate gets into the tissues that have glycine in them and replaces it. There's some very important lung [inaudible 00:31:00] that contain glycine, and the glyphosate will get in there and then they won't work. And I said, what is the best protection against glyphosate? And she says, lots of broth, lots of broth.

Sally Morell:
You have plenty of glycine, so if it does get disrupted, there's more that you can bring in. Of course, broth is our best source of glycine.

Tom Cowan:
So just to get very practical about it, do you see any reason to do fish broth or chicken broth or beef broth or pork broth, or does it just matter the quality of the animal and the amount of gelatin in it?

Sally Morell:
I think basically, it probably doesn't matter unless you are treating a thyroid condition. Then I would say the fish broth is absolutely the very best thing for you. But I think any kind of broth, it's all glycine no matter what animal it is, and the quality of the animal is extremely important, because if that animal's been eating genetically modified feed full of glyphosate, then that'll be there. [crosstalk 00:32:11] taking in even more with your broth.

Sally Morell:
I think you said we wanted to touch on how to protect yourself ... what to stockpile if we're going to have food shortages. I think number one is to make that food chain as short as possible. We said in the book, everybody should have a farmer or have a farm. Doesn't mean you need to own a farm or be married to the farmer, but you need to have a farm or farmer close by where you can get a lot of your food.

Tom Cowan:
All right, [inaudible 00:32:49] fats, we've got broth. How about organ meats? You could make the case that organ meats are maybe the most nutritious, highest in vitamin A, but they also have a lot of iron. So is there a downside, or is that just fine for everybody? Are there some people who should or shouldn't eat it? What would you have to say about that?

Sally Morell:
Well, I would really say we need to eat liver a couple times a week, one way or another. You've got to figure out how to get liver in you, because liver is the A, the D, if it's poultry liver it's the best source of K, it's your iron, it's B-6, B-12, all the minerals. Liver is a sacred food, and it's a highly protective food for your immune system, whatever that may be. My preference is chicken liver, chicken liver pate, but it can be beef liver, liver and onions, it can be desiccated liver, it can be liverwurst. The Europeans are much more clever at making awful taste good than we are, we can't really get liver sausage here or sausage with liver in it.

Tom Cowan:
Other organ meats that people should try to eat, or is it just-

Sally Morell:
Yes, if you can get them. If you can get them. Now, when I writing Nourishing Traditions, I probably was living in the best place in the world to get organ meats, because we had what they call the social Safeway. It was a Safeway for all the embassies, and they all carried these things. You could get brains and sweetbreads and everything, right there in the meat case. They weren't necessarily pasture-raised, but we weren't quite thinking in those terms in those days, so I could go get those foods and I put all the recipes in Nourishing Traditions.

Sally Morell:
If you can get brains, if you can get sweetbreads, kidneys are a great food, they need a little bit of a special preparation, but yeah, these are all great foods. But the basic one is liver, and because when it cooks it becomes soft, it's great for mixing with things. It's actually not very hard to eat.

Tom Cowan:
Good. So we've got fats, we've got broth, we've got liver, we've got other organ meats, if you can get them and you can figure out how to cook them, which is all in Nourishing Traditions. So what's next?

Sally Morell:
Well, fermented foods.

Tom Cowan:
Fermented foods.

Sally Morell:
I think you've taken hold of this even more than I have, but you should eat some lacto-fermented, raw lacto-fermented foods every day. We know how important they are for our digestion, they prevent toxins from getting into the body, they help create nutrients, they create feel-good chemicals, too. If you're not eating fermented foods every day, you may not feel as bright and cheerful as you could feel.

Tom Cowan:
In fact, I mentioned I talked with Andy yesterday, he pointed out that anybody who eats fermented foods is actually doing terrain therapy.

Sally Morell:
Yes, exactly. Very good.

Tom Cowan:
Basically controlling the microbe population, and we know that we ... it's interesting that when people came up with the germ theory, they thought that the human being and all animals, all living beings, were sterile, and there were no organisms anywhere from your skin on in.

Sally Morell:
Yeah, yeah. [crosstalk 00:36:28] And if you had them, they were making you sick.

Tom Cowan:
Yes.

Sally Morell:
They were attacking you.

Tom Cowan:
In fact, even when I was in medical school, and I'm old, but not that old, we still occasionally saw somebody who was sick and we tried to sterilize them, essentially saying they had bacteria, so we usually gave them an antibiotic called , which caused aplastic anemia, which means their bone marrow disintegrated. It was an attempt to sterilize their entire body, and the success rate of that ...

Sally Morell:
Was zero, right?

Tom Cowan:
It was basically zero, and very few people actually survived that. That wasn't that long ago, that the remnants of we are sterile, now I've heard we have fungus and bacteria growing in our eyelids and our nose and our mouth, in our hair follicles, basically everywhere. It's almost like a metaphysical, where are we and where's the microbe?

Sally Morell:
It's interesting, I think the first antibiotic was Azulfidine?

Tom Cowan:
Yeah.

Sally Morell:
Was Azulfidine, and Azulfidine often got people better. In fact, I know someone who was cured instantly of irritable bowel syndrome by taking Azulfidine, but I don't think it was the antibiotic, I think it was the sulfur. You're getting a lot of sulfur from it. One of the people we talk about in our book is Metchnikoff, who really was the first one to talk about beneficial bacteria, nobody talked about that before. And he was a contemporary of Pasteur and Robert Koch and everybody. He twice tried to commit suicide by poisoning himself, and he didn't succeed because he was eating fermented foods every day.

Tom Cowan:
So we're talking sauerkraut, beef kielbas, yogurt, kefir, kimchi-

Sally Morell:
And also gravlax, you can ferment meat products too. One of the things I say in my book Nourishing Diets is that fermented foods are universal, there is no culture that doesn't have fermented foods, including the Inuit in the northern climates; they were fermented foods, they were fermenting birds and fish and meat, and usually they did it in a stomach of an animal. [crosstalk 00:39:09]

Tom Cowan:
Buried it in the ground, yeah.

Sally Morell:
Yeah.

Tom Cowan:
Okay, so we got fermented foods, is there anything else-

Sally Morell:
Just going back to the raw milk, you need a good source of calcium. Now, calcium's kind of downplayed these days, but you definitely need a good source of calcium, and in western cultures, that's dairy foods. The raw dairy foods that calcium is immediately available, it doesn't go to your arteries, it goes to your bones and teeth, and it's there as needed in your bloodstream. If you don't have dairy products, you need to make a big effort to get your calcium. In traditional cultures that didn't have dairy, they ground up the bones of birds and animals and added it to their stews, their food and so forth.

Sally Morell:
So calcium really is important, and hopefully you can consume dairy products. Otherwise, you're going to need to do something else. Maybe cook some eggshells and vinegar, or make bone broth and then crush up the bones and eat those bones.

Tom Cowan:
All right. Other food types or food categories?

Sally Morell:
Well, there's salt, of course. You and I know that Steiner called salt a food, and of course there's been this whole movement to get us to not eat so much salt, but salt is a really critical component of this electrical system in our bodies. Salt helps create a different potential on the inside of the outside of the cell, and your body just couldn't work without salt. So that's very important. Also important for digestion, all sorts of things. And by the way, if you're eating unrefined salt, we need about a teaspoon and a half of salt a day, and if 10% of that is magnesium, you will be getting twice the RDA of magnesium just in your salt.

Tom Cowan:
Yeah. So do you have a favorite salt that you use?

Sally Morell:
We use Celtic sea salt. I was very pleased ... we use it in our cheese-making, so when we need salt, we just go the bag of salt and get the salt. They actually did a study on their salt to see if there was any microplastic, nanoplastic, because that's been a big concern, and they didn't find any. So that's good.

Tom Cowan:
Celtic sea salt, it's the one I've always used, too.

Sally Morell:
But there's other good types of salt.

Tom Cowan:
Yeah.

Sally Morell:
The Himalayan salt and the Hawaiian salt is pink, and that would be a good salt for someone who needs iron.

Tom Cowan:
Okay, what about foods with vitamin C, foods and vegetables, any particular ones, anything people should think about or avoid or not avoid?

Sally Morell:
Well, the best source of vitamin C is your fermented vegetables, so when you make sauerkraut of cabbage, the amount of vitamin C increases up to tenfold. I think I got that out of Steinkraus' book.

Tom Cowan:
Yep.

Sally Morell:
It certainly increases a lot, might not be tenfold, but it increases a lot. And this is how people kept from getting scurvy in the winters, they ate fermented vegetables. By the way, scurvy, they used to think it was an infectious disease. After all, all these men on the ship got it, right, so they must've been giving it to each other. And it really took a paradigm shift for people to realize that these were deficiencies. Beriberi was considered infectious also, until they [crosstalk 00:42:46].

Tom Cowan:
There's been a lot of those that ... which is why I say now, this is a little bit switching subjects, but whenever you say there's a question about the cause of this, people always give you epidemiological observations. What about the nursing home and what about these people, and what about those people? What I've learned to say is, try to be nicer than I used to be, but "Thank you very much, those are wonderful epidemiological observations, which would make any reasonable person investigate an infectious causation." Just like it was absolutely reasonable with these sailors on the ship with scurvy to investigate a infectious causation. So they did, and they didn't find it.

Sally Morell:
We discussed a lot of these situations in our book. I think my favorite one is the choir, where a lot of people in the choir ... so here you have a whole bunch of people very close together, and they all have cell phones either in their pockets or their handbags, which are under their chairs. You've got a lot of cell phone radiation, and believe me, I've brought out one of these meters and believe me, your cell phone is the worst.

Tom Cowan:
Yeah.

Sally Morell:
You can do things to your computer to get to be okay, but the cell phone is very unsafe. Got lots of cell phones, and maybe there is a radio antenna or a cell phone antenna in the church steeple, and people are close together doing a lot of breathing, and yeah, several get sick and it seems like it's infectious, unless you actually dig a little deeper. We talk about a number of their situations.

Sally Morell:
Kirkland, Washington is the location of a company that's working on getting 5G inside buildings, and this nursing home where they had all these outbreaks was a mile from the headquarters of this company. So the question is, was the company trying this out on buildings nearby? We don't know the answer, but that is a theory that needs to be looked at.

Sally Morell:
My biggest concern is that, during this lockdown, they've been putting the 5G into high schools, and the reason is so they can track the kids. They're all going to have a little bracelet with a beeper or something on it so they can keep track of the kids, and I think, the prediction of this second wave I think is accurate, because kids are going to go back to high school and be zapped the 5G radiation. A lot of them will get sick. They also want to put it in football stadiums, and so you go to the football stadium, everybody has a cell phone, everybody's packed in there and the 5G is on. Hope they have a lot of ambulances outside waiting.

Tom Cowan:
Got it, okay. You talked also, I was very interested in zinc, because that is reportedly one of the things that helps even in treatment. One could make the case, I think, as you did, that maybe it's a treatment, maybe it isn't, but we're certainly not eating the foods that have zinc in it. I wonder if you could say something about that.

Sally Morell:
Right, this malaria medicine, I never know how to pronounce it. Hydroxy ... ?

Tom Cowan:
Hydroxychloroquine.

Sally Morell:
Hydroxychloroquine is always given with zinc. And it does seem to be work in many cases, and I wonder if it's the zinc that they're giving to people. Now, zinc is involved in electric transmissions, and I'm not an expert on this, but it's got a role there. But also, zinc is a co-factor for vitamin A, and vitamin A's just involved in everything, even the building of healthy cell membranes. So we don't get enough zinc in our diets today, the best sources are red meat and shellfish, [crosstalk 00:47:06] oysters, if you can eat oysters once a week. I, personally, that's one of the foods that I can't bring myself to eat, and I take desiccated zinc, which I think is a great product.

Sally Morell:
So you do want to have a good source-

Tom Cowan:
Desiccated zinc, or desiccated oysters?

Sally Morell:
Desiccated oyster.

Tom Cowan:
Desiccated oysters. From Oyster Max, is that right?

Sally Morell:
That's the one. That's a great product.

Tom Cowan:
Yeah, great product. Was the next thing, if we're talking about, I think we've got the flu part. Are there supplements and is there guidelines? I think my guess is when you're talking supplements that should be food-based-

Sally Morell:
I think this is the future for supplements. People are beginning to realize most of these supplements, first of all, they're just a single isomer of a vitamin, and vitamins always come as a complex of forms. And they're mostly made in China, there's a lot of impurities in these vitamins, and very often they have the opposite effect of the real vitamin. A perfect example is Retin-A for acne. It can cause behavior problems, anger is one of the side effects. The best thing if you're angry is to take cod-liver oil, that's my experience.

Sally Morell:
The supplements that you take should be food, and I think these desiccated nutrients or desiccated organ meats are great. Cod-liver oil, of course, is a food. I would rather see people eat sauerkraut than take probiotic pills. There's as many good bacteria in a spoonful of sauerkraut as there is in a whole bottle of probiotics. And we don't know if those probiotics come alive or not, we just don't know.

Tom Cowan:
Or they certainly are not from your house or from your community or-

Sally Morell:
Yes, right.

Tom Cowan:
It's always struck me that the word culture, which is how we make sauerkraut, is actually a description of how human beings organize themselves.

Sally Morell:
Yes, yes. I think I said this in Nourishing Traditions, you can't have culture without cultured foods.

Tom Cowan:
It actually binds-

Sally Morell:
Wine, cheese, beer, caviar. These are all cultured foods, and that's what we associate with culture.

Tom Cowan:
Yeah. You're actually creating a similarity between people in their micro-biome.

Sally Morell:
That's right.

Tom Cowan:
So they actually, they have a sympathy and a resonance with each other that, if you're eating bacteria that somebody made in a lab that he says this is the right bacteria, that has nothing to do with living in Maryland or Maine or-

Sally Morell:
Right, or getting local wild honey or local raw milk. I mean, there's your wonderful treatment for allergies and asthma is the local raw milk.

Tom Cowan:
I even understand that raw milk used to be one of the best sources of vitamin C.

Sally Morell:
Yes, raw milk is a great source of vitamin C. There's even an article published in recent years where this conventional medical person says, without doubt, the great plague of infantile scurvy started when we began to heat-treat the milk. Raw milk, raw dairy products are a great source of vitamin C.

Tom Cowan:
Because vitamin C is basically heat-sensitive, so you really want to-

Sally Morell:
Extremely. It's the most heat-sensitive vitamin.

Tom Cowan:
So you got to eat something raw in your diet.

Sally Morell:
Raw milk, raw fruit, and of course the fermented food I call super-raw. They're more than raw, and in the past, you couldn't get an apple in January or berries in March, you had to wait till the summer to get all these vitamin C-rich foods. We had to have vitamin C all year, we don't store it, and the way people got it was through the raw dairy products or the fermented foods.

Tom Cowan:
Yeah. Okay, I think we've got most of it here. [crosstalk 00:51:14]

Sally Morell:
You know, Tom, I just want to say, our book The Contagion Myth, a friend of mine started to read it, and she said, "You know, Sally, this reads like a mystery book. It's like you're taking us through and there's all these mysteries and they get revealed through the book." So we've deliberately kept it simple, we tried not to get too scientific, and there's some real wonderful surprises in the book, especially I'm thinking of the chapter on resonance.

Tom Cowan:
Yeah.

Sally Morell:
And how our DNA resonates with other DNA, other people's DNA. You know what's really contagious is fear or happiness, [crosstalk 00:51:54] these emotions are what are contagious, and it's because of this phenomenon of resonance.

Tom Cowan:
Yeah. To me, it's one of those things that, all human beings have the experience of resonance. If you meet somebody and you fall in love or otherwise hate them or ... that's clearly an experience that's, A, not physical in the usual sense, and there's a kind of resonance going on.

Sally Morell:
Yes, right.

Tom Cowan:
Probably no particularly different than if you pluck a musical instrument on the note and there's another, in the next room, it will also resonate and get louder or softer depending on the resonance or lack thereof.

Sally Morell:
And you're literally in tune with certain people. It's literal, it's not just a figure of speech. There's some people that you are out of tune with.

Tom Cowan:
Yes.

Sally Morell:
You don't resonate the same way.

Tom Cowan:
Yeah. All right, is there anything you want to tell people in the last few minutes here?

Sally Morell:
I would say if you haven't already, get to know the Weston A. Price Foundation, WestonAPrice.org, and our other website RealMilk.com, that helps you find raw milk. And become a member and support the work we do. We have no ties with the industry, with the conventional medicine. We tell the truth, no matter how disruptive or how shocking the truth is. I mean, some of these articles we've published recently have been very shocking to people.

Tom Cowan:
Yeah.

Sally Morell:
Based on the comments we're getting.

Tom Cowan:
Got it. Okay, anything else?

Sally Morell:
That's all, Tom.

Tom Cowan:
Okay, Sally. I so appreciate this.

Sally Morell:
Thank you for having me.

Tom Cowan:
Okay, well, take care.