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The Everyday Trainer Podcast
The Everyday Trainer Podcast
Beyond Commands: Teaching Dogs to Think for Themselves
What happens when your dog isn't in a command? Do they make good decisions or fall apart completely? This question strikes at the heart of the difference between obedience training and true behavior modification.
Many dog owners believe their problems are solved when their dog returns from a board and train program perfectly executing commands like place, sit, and heel. But as we explore in this episode, obedience is merely a tool—not the finished product. A dog that performs beautifully in training sessions but makes poor choices when "off duty" hasn't undergone genuine behavioral change.
True behavior modification focuses on changing how dogs feel and respond across different scenarios and drive states. While most training operates in prey drive (using food or toy rewards), real-world success requires dogs to function well in pack drive—making good decisions without visible rewards present. This is where many impressive-looking training programs fall short.
The social aspect of dog training proves crucial yet often overlooked. When dogs learn appropriate communication with other dogs—how to share resources, yield space, and disengage from potential conflict—they develop the ability to navigate their world successfully without constant management. This social education forms the foundation of lasting behavioral change.
For those struggling with reactive or resource-guarding dogs, understand that management strategies like keeping dogs on place are sometimes necessary but don't constitute true behavior change. Real modification means teaching dogs how to handle challenging situations appropriately, with the owner stepping in only when necessary as the "referee" who enforces fair play.
Whether you're a dog owner seeking better results or a trainer looking to deepen your approach, join us for our Training for Trainers seminar on October 17-19th. Learn how to create dogs that don't just obey—but truly understand how to exist harmoniously in our complex world. Visit our website and click "For Trainers" to register while early bird pricing lasts through September 15th.
Hello and welcome back to the Everyday Trainer podcast. My name is Meg and I am a dog trainer. Today's podcast is talking about true behavior modification versus obedience. So if your dog goes away to a board and train and they come back with all the obedience, does that mean that your dog is a changed dog? We're going to talk about it. You know the drill Grab yourself a tasty drink and meet me back here. Hey guys, welcome back.
Speaker 1:It's been a couple weeks, which makes me sad because the podcast is honestly my favorite thing and it's just my little check-in point every week. If you've been following me for a while, you know that I go to therapy every Tuesday at 7 pm. That is just part of my routine. I've been going to therapy for, I think, six years now, which is so wild, but my therapist has actually been there for the entirety almost the entirety of my dog training career and for me, that hour a week is just maintenance. It's just a time to check in with myself, check in with how I'm feeling and just my little wellness habit that I do for myself, and that is also what my podcast is. So I feel like I'm just all disheveled because we just got back from Wyoming, which was absolutely amazing. I'm going to tell you all about it. But I didn't have any service when I was out there so I couldn't do you know the podcast as much and I couldn't do therapy and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm missing like both of my therapies. You know so anyways, you know so anyways, we are recording. We it's me and the golden girls.
Speaker 1:Toma's not here right now, but we are recording from our new facility. I need like clapping noises. Oh yeah, uh. This is a big step for us. I haven't talked about this yet. This is the first time that I'm kind of bringing this up to you guys and of course, I had to share it on the podcast first, because I always tell you guys all of my nitty gritty details here first before we go to social media. But we got a facility and it has honestly been the best thing that we've ever done, like having a space where we can train the dogs and not be bothered, and it's air conditioning. It's absolutely the best. Once I post it, you guys are going to realize that it's actually a very familiar space.
Speaker 1:So I took over the lease from Oscar Mora's facility, which is so wild, because the first time that I came out to this space was. I think we're going on like around three years ago when I first had Oscar on the podcast. I came out here, we recorded in his facility and we got here and I was like, oh my God, I want this space. When you move out, you have to let me know. I am obsessed with this. It's perfect. It has the training area downstairs and then there's like a loft upstairs. So I'm going to build out a podcast studio and we're going to have a full-time podcast studio. We're going to have a store at the front and we have a space to host shadow programs. So I'm sure you guys have heard Shane and I are doing a training for trainers weekend here coming up in October, october 17th through 19th, and that is just the start of this dog trainer certification that Shane and I are creating.
Speaker 1:We have been in the works on this for quite some time. As you guys know that Shane and I are creating. We have been in the works on this for quite some time. As you guys know, shane and I he's been on the podcast a couple of times and every time we're like, oh, stay tuned for our shadow program, stay tuned for our shadow program and it seems like every single time we put something together, something falls through and we haven't been able to find a space. We wanted to do like an Airbnb, a retreat thing, and we couldn't find anybody to host us. We couldn't find spaces that were big enough. So this facility is huge because it gives us the space to do that and I'm really excited for what's to come in the next year with this space. I want to do more than just dog trainer certifications. We'll have other classes, other people hosting workshops, but I'm so, so excited and I think genuinely this is one of the best things that has come from my dog training career.
Speaker 1:If you guys are dog trainers, I feel like a lot of people in the beginning get into it and their goal is I want a facility. And I've kind of gone back and forth on that for quite some time. You know I've gone from, okay, I'm looking at spaces, I'm looking at spaces, and then I'm like, no, I don't want the responsibility, I like my freedom and I don't necessarily want a whole bunch of dogs in here, but to be able to get this space and turn it into more of a teaching space and less of a doggy daycare or just running a bunch of board and trains out of it is exactly what I want. I never wanted a facility to house a bunch of dogs. I don't really believe in that type of training. Anyways, I don't believe that. I don't know. I personally just like wouldn't send my dog away to a facility where they're just kind of like living at the facility and they just get taken out for training sessions and that's it. Like I genuinely believe in taking the dog out as much as possible.
Speaker 1:So we're still going to be offering our adventure board and trains whenever we take on, you know, trips and go on adventures, which we have one planned the end of October, november-ish timeframe. But that's kind of what I believe as far as dog training goes. So this isn't going to be like a space where it's just like a bunch of boarding dogs or, you know dog board and trains. I don't want to get back into that. You know you guys. You guys know how I feel about the in-house board and train model. It's just not really my cup of tea. I know that there are a ton of people out there that do that, but that's just not for me. So yeah, I'm very, very excited If it sounds a little bit echoey. That's why it's like a good kind of echo, because we're in a new space and I'm not in my van right now and just to.
Speaker 1:First of all, we have a shower, which is huge. That was a huge selling point for me, the fact that there was a shower at the facility. I was like, oh amazing, and there's a Whole Foods that's eight minutes away. And if there's anything that is very important to me, it's a good grocery store. I love a bougie grocery store. I'll take a Whole Foods, that's fine. I, I need that. I, I need that nearby. So it's kind of perfect for us and I'm really excited to see what we turn it into.
Speaker 1:Getting back to the topic for today, this is something that's been coming up in conversation a lot. I had a phone call with someone today who's interested in an adventure board and train and I actually sat down with Celine and Shane and we talked a little bit about this in the podcast that we recorded. But, crazy thing, there was a timer on Celine's outlet and we're chatting it up on the podcast. It was a good podcast, it was great, and then all of a sudden everything shuts off and goes and we just look each other and we're like, oh my gosh. So I've literally spent hours, hours trying to get back my audio and I wasn't able to get it. I literally turned into like a coder. So, yeah, we're just letting that one go. But don't worry, we're going to rerecord everything this weekend whenever we meet up for training, and you guys will get to see a little bit of the facility as well.
Speaker 1:But I wanted to check base with you. I didn't want to leave you guys hanging and I was going to post a prerecorded one, but I was like no, I need to talk to my people, not just for you guys but for me. This is a topic that has been coming up. It came up when we were doing our podcast, it came up on the phone call today, but we're talking about the difference between true behavioral modification and obedience, between true behavioral modification and obedience. This is something that I see with a lot of, I would say, facility programs or large dog training businesses. I feel like the culture has shifted, but it's still very common to send your dog away to a board and train. They get taken out, you know, three to five times a day to go potty and do a training session that basically is just place down, sit, you know, loose, lead, walk and that's kind of it. And so we're sending these dogs home to owners and I think owners like the obedience but the expectation that their dog is, you know, quote, fixed. The dog's not really fixed, the dog is obedient. So what's the difference between having an obedient dog and having a dog that has had true behavioral modification?
Speaker 1:I'm going to call out Toma a little bit here and I know I've kind of talked about this before. But when I first met Toma a little bit here, and I know I've kind of talked about this before, but when I first met Toma, he had his dog Hawk. He still has Hawk, I don't know, I said that in past tense, but he has Hawk. And when I first met him he showed up to my house with his unhinged Malinois and he was struggling with Hawk, biting up the leash. He was like, oh yeah, oh yeah, he just, you know, like he gets me sometimes. You know, just on accident, he could not even put a leash on him and walk down the street. This dog was scanning and you know, hitting the leash one direction, hitting the leash in the other direction, pulling him down the street If there's like any sort of noise, he's like whipping his head around and Toma had a lot of control on him. He has phenomenal obedience. You guys have probably seen his videos. He has really good like head up, fancy heel. He's got all of his obedience commands. But what happens when Hawk isn't in a command? And Toma we're still working on this with him Toma was so micromanaging with Hawk, like anytime he needed his dog to like move, he's like foos, you know, healing him somewhere and then putting him in a down.
Speaker 1:And Hawk was not learning how to think for himself. So when he wasn't in a command he was just completely unhinged Because in his mind that was the expectation. Right, he was like okay, well, my life is, you know, in the crate and then I come out of the crate and then we're doing an obedience session or we're doing you know a club day, and then I go back into the crate and you know that's it. That's kind of our routine and he couldn't do the simple things like just existing in the house without bouncing off the walls or just you know going for a nice relaxed walk. And you guys know me, you know I'm big on the walk and how important it is for our dog's state of mind.
Speaker 1:So I told Toma. I said Hawk is not your sport dog right now, he is in for a board and train. Because I will not have a dog like that living in my house with all of my trained dogs. I'm very big on all of the dogs need to be on the same page and Hawk just wasn't there. Hawk also did not listen to me or like respect me at all. That one's still kind of like out for debate. He like barely listens to me.
Speaker 1:But for the household that I had at the time, which was, you know, my house in Florida, where I was running board and trains and we had boarding dogs and everybody had gone through a training program with us, they all knew the drill, they all knew how to exist in the house and Hawk didn't know those things, so we ran him through behavioral mod. So what does that look like? I think when we think of dog training we think of obedience, and this is something that I've kind of struggled with in the past as well is the expectation of owners of what a trained dog actually is, and you can kind of get caught up in this cycle of what does a trained dog look like or what's something tangible that I can show my owners that I've actually been spending time training this dog. That's really hard if you're not doing obedience. So when I was running board and trains out of my house, I personally and I can kind of say this now because I have a little bit more freedom with my life and the dogs that I take but at the time when I had a team of trainers and we couldn't be as selective about, you know, the dogs and owners that we would work with, I found myself getting caught up in OK, this dog goes home and you know three weeks and they need to know place, sit down, or I haven't trained them. If they don't have those things, that means that I didn't do my job as a dog trainer. If they don't have those things, that means that I didn't do my job as a dog trainer, even though in my mind I know that there's so much more than obedience commands. But it's hard to show people tangible evidence that you've trained their dog without those obedience commands and unfortunately owners like it. Obedience commands and unfortunately owners like it. They like when you do a go-home session and a dog is super obedient and super focused. But there's a lot of fallout to that because, one, the owners are not going to be able to replicate your timing, your marker words, your ability to communicate with the dog in the same way that you trained them, and we're not actually teaching the dog how to think for themselves, we're just teaching them how to be obedient and teaching them to perform for us really.
Speaker 1:So that's just such a small part of what the behavioral modification process actually is, and we were kind of chatting the other day about, you know, all of our friends are dog trainers and I feel like everybody has their niche and I was like I don't feel like I have a niche. I don't feel like I have a set way that I train dogs. Like, I love the sporty stuff. I think it's super fun, it's made me a better dog trainer. I love, you know, walking drills and stuff, that kind of mimics, horse training, right, pressure and release with your body and, you know, getting really tuned into your state of mind.
Speaker 1:I could train a dog force-free if I needed to. I know how to do that. I know how to counter condition. I know how to mark and reward. I know how to use rewards. I know how to use play with a dog. And I'm going through this list of trainers that I want to have out to this space and I'm like, wow, everybody has a thing. You know, I can look at this trainer and I know exactly what their thing was and I honestly felt a little defeated. I was like I don't, I don't feel like I don't feel that way, I don't feel super passionate of towards any one way of training a dog. I think that there's so many different ways to train a dog and I want to try as many different ways as possible. And I was talking to my friend Lex and she was like well, you know, I think that's your thing. I think you know you don't prescribe to any one type of training or any method. But I think something that you are really good at is the group aspect of dog training, the social aspect of dog training how can we get multiple dogs to coexist together and that I kind of realized that, oh my gosh, that is my thing. Something that I think is the most important is can my dogs all get along? Do I have to worry about them getting into fights if I'm not standing over them? And honestly I don't.
Speaker 1:I'm not big on correcting dogs for not following through with obedience, but I am big on holding dogs accountable to social behaviors and I think that is where the true behavioral modification really comes in. And that doesn't come from having an obedient dog, it comes from teaching a dog how to dog a dog how to dog. So when I was back in Florida, I would have my backyard full of probably I mean anywhere from 10 to 20 dogs, and now all of these dogs had gone through a training program with us, whether it be a daily training program or a board and train program. So they knew, you know, the expectations. But part of that training is teaching the dogs how to coexist with each other, and I learned so much just from watching the dogs and how they would communicate with each other when they would decide to correct you know, when they would decide to walk away, when they would decide to ignore each other. They are way better at making those calls than I ever could and I'm relatively experienced with, you know, groups of dogs and that's really what I learned is there's no better teacher than another dog.
Speaker 1:Now, as my career kind of continued and we had, you know, more and more trainers on our staff, I realized the importance of keeping the dogs separate for the sake of liability, because that's a tough skill to transfer. It's tough to teach people how to get the dogs to coexist. You have to read very, very subtle body language changes between some dogs. I know when a dog is done and is over a threshold and needs to go back inside, they can't be with the group anymore. I know when a dog needs to go back on leash and that's not always the case, and so I found it really hard for me to talk a lot about and to teach people is because it's been something that's just very intuitive for me, because I've spent so many years just sitting in my backyard on that picnic table watching the dogs interact and stepping in when I need to and learning from them of you know what's a meaningful correction, what is allowed in this setting.
Speaker 1:So like, for example, if we have a group of dogs in the backyard and one of the dogs is running around and has the zoomies, it triggers all of the dogs to go into chase, right, and so they go from play, play, play, but if we stay in play for a little bit too long and every dog's threshold is a little bit different. But if we stay in play for a little bit too long and every dog's threshold is a little bit different but if we stay in that like chasing play mode, it can switch to prey drive very quickly. So now you have a dog that's running around the backyard with a dog following, chasing them, who is no longer looking at them as a playmate but is now looking at that dog that has the zoomies as prey. So then the dog running goes. Oh my gosh, this is getting intense. They're going to run even faster, which is going to trigger the other dog even more, and when that running dog stops, that dog that's chasing that dog is going to come in super hot and that's a moment of explosion. So I've learned that, okay, I can let you, you can have some zoomies, but I'm going to stop the zoomies because I know what happens when we get into chase for a little bit too long.
Speaker 1:We're going to get all of these dogs in a super high arousal state and when that happens, that is when fights or conflict is going to break out. Another good example of this is throwing a ball. I had a trainer at one point. It was like one of her first days at my house and I was walking her through the backyard and kind of our routine for bringing the dogs out and what we do when they're out and how we monitor them, all of that sort of stuff, and she picks up a stick and throws the stick into the yard. So again we're going from play to now we've just triggered a group of dogs to jump into prey mode, which is a higher state of arousal and again another area of conflict. So there's all of these little nuances to social interactions amongst dogs and I think that that is where we're teaching them, where we're teaching the dogs how to make good decisions.
Speaker 1:So even if I disrupt a dog, let's say from running right, I, you know, will slip a slip lead on that dog, you know, redirect them. We'll go into walking drills to kind of slow them down. I want to keep them moving. But I'm teaching them what I want them to do. In that moment I'm not necessarily going to tell no down, you know, put that dog into obedience command. We don't need an obedience command here. I can use my body language or I can use my leash as guidance to teach the dog what I want them to do in those moments, you know, and over time, over the weeks that the dogs are, you know, at the house, they learn what is allowed in the yard with the group of dogs and what's not. They learn that they can't rush into others' space. They learn that if one dog is chewing on a stick, they can't just run up and take that stick from that dog that's already chewing on it. I will, you know, no, no, no, I will push that dog away or I'll grab them and I'll grab the stick and give it back to the other dog.
Speaker 1:We kind of joked that my house, the dog house, was public school. So a lot of times when we get dogs in, they're a single dog household and we all love our dogs so much and we've kind of made them the center of our lives. And so our dogs go out into the world thinking that they're kind of hot shit, right, they're like well, my mommy says that I can do whatever I want, and so they would show up to our house for a board and train with that mentality. And putting them in a group setting and treating them as a group is like treating, you know, students as a class. Like you guys are a class, you're a cohesive unit. We have rules, everybody's got to be on the same page, and if somebody decides to get out of line, there's typically a consequence for everybody.
Speaker 1:Now, a consequence doesn't necessarily mean that I'm correcting all of the dogs if one dog does something bad, but a good example of this is before I go and let all of the dogs out out and we still do this with our dogs, especially when we have adventure boarding trains we'll kind of go through the steps of all. Right, I'm going to walk in the room. Right, they get excited, they anticipate coming out of the crate. So they're like oh my gosh, oh my gosh. Well, we're not going to start letting dogs out until everybody in this room is settled. So there's always, you know, one dog left that's kind of popping off and losing it. And no, even if everybody else is calm, we're not going to move forward in steps.
Speaker 1:And the dogs are very social and they pick that up. They know, oh my gosh, this dog is being loud. He hasn't learned yet, he'll learn soon. And eventually you have a room full of dogs that you walk in. Wait a couple minutes, they're all settled. They know that everybody needs to be settled before she starts letting dogs out. Same thing with feeding time. If I have a room full of dogs and I start pouring dog food into bowls, everybody's going to get super jacked up. And you know what I do? I walk over, I put the bowls on top of the crates and I because I think that that is what's going to actually change a dog for the better, because when you go out into the world, the only thing that you can control is your dog.
Speaker 1:So I want to prep your dog for those real world moments that are going to happen because your management, your obedience, is going to fail at some point. So if a dog doesn't know what to do let's say, when an off-leash dog approaches them and they're not in obedience, command that dog. In my opinion, that dog, in my opinion, is not actually trained right and we can say, okay, well, just put your dog in a down, hold them to that down and then go and grab the other dog. Sure, you could definitely do that. I don't think very many people have strong enough obedience. That's something that Tomo would do with his dogs, because he does have really good obedience. That's something that Tomo would do with his dogs because he does have really good obedience, but he hasn't taught his dogs how to handle an oncoming dog, so he knows that that's going to be an area of conflict because he hasn't prepped his dog for that. And that's what I'm really big on is prepping dogs for those real life moments.
Speaker 1:So I was talking on the phone today with a woman who wants to do an adventure board and train with us and she has two dogs who have gotten into a fight once over a resource and these dogs have already gone to a board and train program before program before. What we were talking about was I was like okay, have you gone back to that trainer? And she was like I've done like a follow-up lesson with them before, but I just I didn't really feel super supportive. They were just kind of going through the motions with me of okay, well, have your food on you and you know, basically going back to stage one of training if you're still struggling, which is not bad I'm not saying that that's a bad thing at all, but I think people want more from training. And she was like yeah, my dogs like they know all the things, they're e-collar conditioned, they're obedient, they know place, like they'll just hang out in the house, like they're really good, but they get super jacked up when I go to take them out or you know, I still have to worry about them. You know, guarding a resource. One of my dogs does not like other dogs approaching his space and I'm worried that you know he's going to do something. And she was like the appeal of your program is that. One, I love that the dogs are getting out and it's actually enjoyable for them they're not just sitting in a facility. And two, they get to be with other dogs.
Speaker 1:And so then I went to explain how I'm kind of a lazy dog trainer and I use my own dogs to help me train new dogs that are coming in. I was like, well, the nice part about doing training with us is my dogs are super neutral and I've trained them like that. That's always. My priority is I want my dogs to be able to go places with me, to be calm when I need them to be calm, to handle people coming up to them, to handle dogs coming up to them. That is my priority as far as training goes. Obedience, yes, we do it. It's fun, it's fulfilling, but that's not my priority when it comes to training. So I use my dogs as examples to your dogs of you know. Hey, it's not a big deal if a dog approaches you and I think you know there's no better teacher than other dogs, especially in those moments.
Speaker 1:I've talked about different drive states before in a previous episode and if you haven't listened to that episode I definitely recommend you go and listen to it. I talk about pack drive versus prey drive, versus defense and how we kind of switch in between these states. A lot and a common thing that I see in the dog training industry is we're mostly operating in prey drive. So prey drive is what happens when we're introducing food and luring into our training. And I think you can have a dog that looks very, very nice in prey drive, but if you haven't taught the dog skills in a different drive state, that dog is not going to look very good when they're not in prey drive. And that's kind of why I have like hem and hawed on what true behavioral mod is. And does it really involve food? And I don't really know.
Speaker 1:In the beginning of my career I worked with a lot of overweight and kind of unmotivated dogs, so I didn't find myself able to use food rewards in the beginning and you know I couldn't even use a ball or a tug. I very rarely get dogs that are motivated to play with me, especially when we're working with, like reactive dogs or fearful dogs. That was, kind of you know, a majority of the dogs that I was getting, and so I was left with operating a majority of my training in pack drive and I didn't really know that I was doing pack drive at the time. I was just like, okay, well, this dog doesn't really care about me, this dog doesn't care about following my lead, this dog doesn't care about socializing with the other dogs. This dog just doesn't really want following my lead. This dog doesn't care about socializing with the other dogs Like this dog just doesn't really want to do anything. How can I motivate this dog and teach this dog that there is a benefit to you following my lead, that we do fun things together if you just, you know, come with me or when we hang out in the backyard, like you can have fun with the other dogs, like this can be an enjoyable thing for you and you can learn how to love other dogs, even if you are fearful, reactive to dogs.
Speaker 1:And in my opinion, I feel like true behavioral modification is not in prey drive. I think true behavioral modification is in pack drive. How does that dog act when there's no visible reward for them? Are they going to make the right decision or are they going to completely blow you off? I like using food and training and I use a lot of food and training.
Speaker 1:I did multiple training sessions with my little muffin today and it was all about teaching, free shaping place with her and using food rewards, because that's a big motivator for her. But I didn't have food and I tried to do it again with all of the other dogs out, and muffin had no idea what I was asking because I'm practicing it in a different drive state and so it's a completely different scenario and so she's not able to do place because she's like well, the dogs are out and you don't have food in your hands, like this isn't the same picture at all. I have no idea what you're talking about, and that's something that's so interesting about dogs for me is you know a dog like Hawk, where he's so well-trained he's literally so well-trained but he just does dumb things sometimes and I'm like how can a dog like you be able to focus heel, for you know a hundred yards and know exactly, you know all of these commands and told all toma has like a million different marker words and all of this stuff, but you don't know how to function if there's not a reward present, and that's something that, like, even toma has struggled so much with is like he's he is scared to like release his dog if he doesn't have a reward because he's like well, hawk's going to get frustrated. And then he's going to like come at me and I'm like, yeah, that's the problem, right, is that? If there's, if he's not in parade, drive like he's getting frustrated because there's not a visible reward there. So I feel like behavioral mod is is kind of the not so pretty fun side of training, because we get people all the time who comment on toma's videos and even some of my clients. They're like can I get obedience like hawk has? And I'm like, no, you don't want that. Like Hawk is a menace when he's not in obedience command. Yeah, it looks cool. And I think that's why people kind of like get these high drive dogs as they see videos of them on Instagram where they're like wow, this dog is in a nice focus heel, that's so cool, it is super cool.
Speaker 1:But we also need to check our expectations and realize that that's a dog that one has a lot of drive, uh needs to be managed more than the average dog and like, yeah, you can get the fancy obedience, but what do you want more? What do you want more? Do you want a dog that makes good decisions for themselves, or do you want a dog that you can turn on some solid obedience? And I'm not saying that you can't have both. There are definitely people out there who do have both and that's something that I kind of strive for with my dogs.
Speaker 1:But even with Minka Minka I don't do sports with she's not a very good candidate for it, she's pretty flat and I think part of that is because I prioritized raising her as a pack. I raised her with my goldens, I taught her how to be calm around the other dogs, I taught her how to be social, I taught her how to be approached by people and kids and you know all of this stuff because that's what I prioritize and that's what I want from my dogs. Now, if she were a different type of dog, could I get a fancy heel and have that For sure, but she's just not that type of dog If I wanted her to be, you know drivey drivier in her obedience. I would probably have to limit that. You know quote pet training that I'm doing with her.
Speaker 1:So I think part of the changes that I want to see in the dog training industry is owner expectation and I definitely think that that we're on the up for sure. I think owners are starting to realize that just because you send your dog away for two weeks doesn't mean their problems have gone away forever, and that a dog that has to stay on place all the time is not a trained dog. A dog that is in constant management in order to not make the wrong decision is not necessarily fixed. Those issues, those resource guarding issues, those reactivity issues, those are still there. But the early stages of dog training is teaching the skills right, which we can do with positive reinforcement, with food, with obedience commands. But eventually we need to leave it up to the dog and see what type of decisions that they make on their own, and if they make the wrong decision, there can be consequences for that.
Speaker 1:So for, for example, let's say I have a resource guarding dog in the beginning of our training, I'm going to put that dog on place, I'm going to give them their little place square. Hey, you just got to stay here, that's it. That's all you have to do. You can't do anything else, right? So I'm teaching the dog what I want them to do. I can have other dogs out, I can have toys on the ground. You can't go and grab that toy from another dog. You have to stay on place. That's the only thing you can do. Now. That's management, right? So when we're in that stage, we're in the stage of management and in my opinion I think some dogs have to stay in management for life, for the safety of themselves and the dogs and humans around them. Okay. But let's say I want to take that a step further and go into true behavioral modification. So that's just the practice, right. That's the rehearsal, that's teaching the dog, those beginning stages of what I want you to do.
Speaker 1:Now I would correct the dog if they decided to get up off of place. I'm not necessarily correcting the dog if they're resource guarding, unless they do that from place, but the obedience in that moment is the place command, okay. So next step is I take that dog out, we go into the backyard, I have that dog on a you know our 10 foot slip lead and I'm doing big figure eights in the backyard while I have other dogs out. Now the dogs would find sticks there. I wouldn't leave too many toys but sometimes there would be like toys in the backyard that they would find. And while I'm doing my walking drills I'm watching the dog that I have the resource garter right and I'm seeing how this dog reacts to seeing other dogs play with sticks and balls.
Speaker 1:So if that dog is fixating, is locking on, is showing me their intention, is fixating, is locking on, is showing me their intention, I'm again going to use my management, which in this case is a little less structured than a place command. It's simply a loose lead walk, which is a drill that we also practice away from the other dogs, right? So when that dog goes to fixate, we just keep walking, right, I'm teaching that dog what I want him to do. When you feel those feelings, when you feel those moments of I want that thing, I need that thing, that thing is mine, nope, we're just going to keep moving. Okay, then the next stage is I'm going to drop my leash. I'm still going to walk around the backyard because I want to keep that dog moving and I want to keep kind of rehearsing that same picture of movement is really important in moments of conflict. So if I see the dogs in the yard getting a little stiff, their body language is getting a little stiff around a ball. Come on, let's go. We're going to keep moving right, and I've done this walking drill with all of the dogs before already, so they all kind of just go into following my lead and I do my big figure eights around the yard get the dogs moving.
Speaker 1:Once I have the dog to that point I can trust them a bit more and I don't have to be as on guard. So that's when I would go and sit on my little picnic table and kind of act as lifeguard in the backyard with all of the dogs and I watch. I watch what that dog does. If another dog approaches when they have a ball, approaches when they have a ball, does that dog take the ball and move away? Or does that dog go into defense and growl and snap at the approaching dog? So ideally I want dogs to.
Speaker 1:You can correct a dog. If you're a dog who's, let's say, chewing on a ball and another dog approaches you with intention of taking your ball, you're allowed to say no, f off, I'm chewing on this ball. You can't take it right now. Okay, so I allow the dog some wiggle room of communication there so you can growl, you can give a little snap. But what I don't want you to see, I don't want to see, is I don't want you to over-correct that dog or unfairly correct that dog without proper communication beforehand. So let's say that resource guarding dog starts to growl and my oncoming dog doesn't move away. Now that's not the problem of the resource guarding dog, that's a problem of the dog who is in that dog's space, who is not listening to what that dog is saying. So I'm going to stand up, I'm going to walk over there and I'm going to move the dog that is trying to take the ball out of that situation.
Speaker 1:I'm teaching two things here. I'm teaching that dog the one that I just removed that you cannot go up to a dog who is chewing on a toy and try and take that toy. That is unfair. It's literally just like kindergartners, I swear, and I'm also teaching, am advocating for them, and that they don't have to correct that dog themselves. I think that's another big, you know, learning moment is it's not your job, right, you can communicate, but at the end of the day, if your communication doesn't work, I got you, I am your backup and that's what we need to be as our dogs' owners and handlers. So we need to be able to give our dogs the space to make the right choice. But if you know we need to, we can always step in and advocate for our dogs. We need to. We can always step in and advocate for our dogs.
Speaker 1:So let's say, I have this dog who is sensitive to other dogs coming into its space on leash. Okay, so I'm going to start with teaching skills, right? So those are the moments where I'm going to use my food rewards. I'm going to use my luring, I'm going to use my marker words, all of that stuff. I'm going to use my food rewards. I'm going to use my luring, I'm going to use my marker words, all of that stuff. I'm going to teach the dog a loose lead walk in a relatively sterile environment, away from other dogs, away from distractions, and then I'm going to take that skill out into the real world and I'm not necessarily going to have my food on me.
Speaker 1:Okay, we're kind of mimicking like a real world scenario here. We're going and walking around the neighborhood. I see an off-leash dog approaching us, I want to act how I want my dog to act in that moment. So if I want my dog to be nice and calm and neutral and not even acknowledge that oncoming dog, that's what I'm going to do. But I'm just essentially going to keep walking because I have taught that dog that other dogs approaching does not mean that you need to overcorrect or guard your space, right? Because we've practiced that in that social setting in my yard around dogs that I have control over, and that's why I'm so big on.
Speaker 1:I will never like take care of dogs that I have not trained, because I need to be able to have that control. But even if you have a multi-dog household, you have to be the one who's kind of the referee for your dogs. If they've gotten into a fight before, you have to be able to read them and teach them like hey, you're allowed to chew on that ball. You're allowed to tell the other dog to F off if you're chewing on the ball and you don't want to be bothered. And if that dog doesn't F off, don't worry, I'm going to step in, right? So the same thing applies with a strange dog, but you only have control over the dog in your care, not the other dog approaching, which is a little bit different from, like, my backyard situation.
Speaker 1:Right, so we're walking, walking, walking dog is approaching us. I'm going to stay nice and calm and, if I need to, I'll walk the other way. I'm not going to pick up my pace, I'm not even going to say anything. I'm going to go into my figure eight walking drills and I'm going to go into something that we know. Now, let's say that off-leash dog is being a little too intense, is being a little too unfair, just like the dog from you know the previous scenario in my backyard coming to steal the ball.
Speaker 1:Then I'm going to step in, I will position my dog behind me, I will put my body language in or I will put my body in between the you know approaching dog to communicate to my dog that, hey, you're doing a great job, but this dog is not listening to your cues and I don't really want this to escalate. So I'm going to stand in between you two and maybe, you know, kind of shove the other dog away with my foot, or even just my body language, or you know, hey, go. You know, but I'm still going to do my best to remain as calm as possible, because my dog is always looking to me for guidance of how to act, right? So what I'm looking for from a truly changed dog is one that doesn't freak out in those moments. Right? You're not freaking out on that oncoming dog because you know you've seen this picture before. We've practiced this before with a bunch of other dogs in the yard, with my dogs, with dogs that are also in for training, that know the same rules and standards. You've seen this picture before, so you're not panicking. And you also know that it's not your responsibility to ultimately manage the situation. And so that's a dog that we've successfully changed how that dog feels about a specific scenario, right? So in my eyes, that's what a true behavioral mud dog is.
Speaker 1:But if we, you know, take this obedience approach of training, I feel like the response is well, hold your dog in heel and yell and scream and get the other dog to go away, and heal and yell and scream and get the other dog to go away, instead of teaching your dog how to handle dogs coming up into their space. I know that my dogs and my dogs don't love like they don't love strange dogs coming up into their space. But I know that they'll tolerate it because I've taught them to and I've taught them that if it escalates, it's not your job to worry about it, I'm going to handle it. And so I don't have to worry about off leash dogs coming up to my dogs. I don't have to worry about my dogs being in a yard with other dogs that might be resource guarding. My dogs are going to move away because that's what I've taught them. I've taught them that hey, if you know this dog is stealing something from you or is being crazy, just leave. Just leave the situation.
Speaker 1:So I have dogs that make relatively good I would say like 90% of the time make good decisions on their own, even when they're not in an obedience command, and the mentality of, I think a lot of maybe like old school dog training that is very much like your dog should never interact with other dogs. Your dog should never like approach other dogs. There should never be any greetings. I think in the beginning stages, especially if you're dealing with like aggression or any know severe reactivity for sure you know we have to avoid those reactive moments, but you're not going to be able to avoid those situations forever. Eventually, I want a dog that can safely navigate that without me putting them into management. Or you know running out of the situation, or you know putting them into management, or you know running out of the situation, or you know throwing them into obedience. I hope that makes sense. I kind of like rambled on a little bit. I gotta go back to my notes.
Speaker 1:So what does behavioral modification really mean? It means that we're focusing on changing the dog's mindset and emotional state, not just their outward behavior. So examples of this is reactivity. We're teaching neutrality and coping skills, not just teaching our dog to, let's say, sit when a dog walks by. That's something that I see all the time. Right, I don't want to see that.
Speaker 1:Or with anxiety, building confidence, structure and fulfillment and not just a quote place, place command. I've always been a big hater of place because I feel like it's been a crutch for dog trainers and it's kind of one of those like flashy things that you can be like look, teach your dog place. Owners love it, their dog stays on place forever and they're like ta-da, your dog is trained. Or they'll just use place to fix like anything a dog does. Oh, your dog is rushing at the door. Tell them to go to place. Oh, your dog is jumping up on people. Tell them to go to place. Oh, your dog is peeing on the floor. Tell them to go to place. Like, just keep them on place, don't let them do those things. And, of course, some dogs like need that type of structure.
Speaker 1:I think, particularly working dogs. I've dealt with a few resource guarding dogs that were like that, that it was like, hey, this is not necessarily a safe dog and if you're going to keep this dog around, we're basically going to be managing it for life. Like, this is not a dog that I would ever trust around. My dogs or, you know, kids or other family members, so, like, in order for this dog to survive, this dog isn't going to need to be in constant place command, essentially because they just don't make good decisions, which I think is okay too, you know. But I think we need to call it what it is. I don't think that's like a behavioral modification.
Speaker 1:I think that is a dog that has good management skills, and good management skills, hell yeah, it saves dog's lives, hell yeah. But is it a dog that I would trust? No, and so I think owners, when they send their dogs away, have this expectation that, one, the dog is going to come back with a bunch of obedience and, two, that the dog is going to be fixed and that they can use the obedience when they want to use the obedience. But their dog should be able to make good decisions on their own, and so there's a lot of fallout that comes from those unmet expectations of the owner and their dog is not making good decisions or they do have moments. Let's just say Now I'm not here to bash on obedience. Obedience definitely still fits into this and is still valuable. It gives structure, it creates predictability and it builds communication.
Speaker 1:I talk about my active training sessions all the time and how it's more so for your practice, for your timing, for your marker words, and less about the dog. So it's a good fulfillment. Think of it as like your snuffle mat right. Instead of having your dog sniff around a snuffle mat, do a training session with them. Send them to place practice your marker words right. So obedience is just a tool in our toolbox. It's not the finished house.
Speaker 1:Real change comes when obedience is paired with consistent behavior, strategies, engagement, rewards, corrections, management and lifestyle shifts. Owners need to understand that obedience is part of the journey. It's not the end goal and we need to focus on communication and consistency, not perfection. Your dog needs space to practice good decisions and to not just in quotes, perform. Struggling doesn't mean failure. It means there's an opportunity to work on the root of the behavior, which is the dog's feelings. So, true, behavioral modification is lasting change and obedience is just a piece of that puzzle. It is not the whole picture.
Speaker 1:If this resonates with you, this is exactly the kind of stuff we dive into in the virtual shadow program and what we're going to be talking about in our training for trainers workshop. You guys know that. I had to plug it again if you guys are interested in learning more about that. The training for trainers seminar is october 17th through 19th. You can sign up through early bird. Prices are through September 15th. That is on my website. If you go to my website and go to the menu, click for trainers and it'll show you the training for trainers seminar and also my virtual shadow program, which starts on Monday, september 8th.
Speaker 1:I love my virtual shadow program. I'm so excited for this round. I actually think that spots are full, so I'm so sorry. The next one will probably be next year, honestly, which is a crazy, crazy thought, but I hope you all enjoyed this episode. I'm so sorry that it was late. I've missed you guys. I was not here last week and I just needed to, you know, pop on here and brain dump to you really. So thank you so much for being here. Go check out my website, sign up for those. I would love, love, love to have you guys out and hopefully, fingers crossed, next week we will have the episode with myself, shane and Celine to talk about how her trial went. Super exciting stuff. We'll see you then. Thanks guys, thank you.