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The Everyday Trainer Podcast
The Everyday Trainer Podcast
The Art of Trialing: Inside Celine's PSA Level 1 Success
The journey to competition success is rarely a straight line. In this episode, we're joined by Celine, Shane, and Thoma who take us behind the scenes of Celine's recent PSA Level 1 trial victory in Wyoming. What does it really take to prepare a dog for back-to-back trial days, and how do you maintain consistency when the pressure's on?
The conversation quickly evolves into a debate about training methodologies that challenge conventional wisdom. Shane shares his approach to e-collar use, arguing that "the quicker you can get out of escape, the better" and explaining why he deliberately trains without electronic tools to build reliability when it matters most. This perspective opens up a broader discussion about creating working dogs who can function beautifully both on and off the competition field.
Perhaps most valuable is the group's candid reflections on balancing intensity with livability. As Celine notes about her competition Malinois: "I thought she was going to be more crazy because everyone was telling me Mals are these crazy prey monsters." Their insights into managing multiple high-drive dogs in a household setting provide practical wisdom for anyone juggling the demands of serious training with everyday life.
Whether you're actively competing in dog sports or simply fascinated by the psychology behind training working dogs, this episode delivers actionable insights, hard-earned wisdom, and a refreshing honesty about the challenges and rewards of pushing the boundaries of what's possible with our canine partners. Plus, don't miss details about an upcoming trainer seminar that promises to transform how you approach dog training as both an art and a business.
To sign up for the October seminar, visit the website here.
Hello, hello and welcome back to the Everyday Trainer podcast. My name is Meg and I am a dog trainer. Today's episode we are joined by Shane Murray, celine and Toma. We just got back from Wyoming, so we're going to talk about our trip, celine's trials and kind of just everything you guys should know about trialing and getting into sports. You know the drill Grab yourself a tasty drink and meet us back here.
Speaker 3:Hello guys, Yo yo Welcome. We need intros. I wish I had a catchy last name like that. I want something. Shane gets that last name shane murray.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, nobody knows who shane is.
Speaker 1:Shane murray, sean murray yeah, yeah, I don't know, I didn't even realize that I always say your first and last name.
Speaker 2:Everybody always does Anytime.
Speaker 1:I hear someone talking about me. It's always Shane Murray. You got a good name, yeah it rings well, it's like James. Bond Bond.
Speaker 2:Murray, shane, toma Lutkin, toma's cool.
Speaker 3:Toma.
Speaker 4:But, no one has the name Toma. It really sucks when you have to order a coffee Like I know it's a lot Toma, but no one has the name Toma, so you're very you know, it really sucks when you have to order a coffee like every single time?
Speaker 3:how?
Speaker 2:do you spell your name T-H-O-M-A? No S, there's no S. I thought there was an S and you were just being French and fancy and you were just like but you pronounce it Toma.
Speaker 4:That's what I thought there's like a little thing on top.
Speaker 2:I'm weak alright, so this is take two yeah in case you guys didn't know, we did this whole entire podcast, literally almost two hours, and then Celine's outlet went out because there's a timer on it, and here we are doing it again we have Toma with us so it's much different. It's a sign from the universe.
Speaker 4:that's what we get for doing it again. We lost everything. We have Toma with us, so it's much different. It's a sign from the universe.
Speaker 2:That's what we get for doing it without Toma. We were literally talking about it.
Speaker 1:We need Toma here to talk about his PDC journey and that experience and his trial experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we got stuff to talk about, but first, behold the Holy Grail. Oh, congratulations, celine, thank you, thank you guys. We are super proud of you. That's a lot of what they call in the sport hardware Very impressive, very tough to do. You went back to back two days.
Speaker 2:For anybody who doesn't know, trialing a dog For PSA you have to trial the competitive levels, that's one, two and three. You have to complete it twice In the level ones you have the opportunity to do it day after day. So she trialed on Friday or Saturday it was a Saturday Saturday did it and then came back on Sunday and did it. And that is very fucking hard For my dog, slim, in our training I wouldn't be able to do that.
Speaker 2:Dogs start getting loose and sloppy on the trial field where they don't get any corrections, where they get a lot of bites. It's a lot of fun and going back to back days is super fucking difficult. So that's just a test to the training and I'm probably going to say this a few times. I mentioned this the last time we did this. It takes a special type of training and a special type of dog to be able to trial back-to-back days again, like my dog couldn't do it. There's no way slim would be able to do it. So it's very, very impressive. Um, but again, I expected nothing less appreciate it at all. But yeah, tell us a little bit about it yeah, so we traveled to wyoming.
Speaker 4:I've never traveled that far for a um, like a trial before Dog people, man, it's crazy, it's actually crazy. But when they told me that there was a trial out there, I really, really wanted to go. I've always wanted to go to Wyoming. It was one of those like bucket list states always wanted to travel to. But luckily I did have someone bring Brett out for me, so Ano drove her out in her van for like a week, so I didn't get to train her for a week before this, so I was freaking out.
Speaker 3:Even that's crazy, but she was so solid, she was so ready. No, I was so scared, though.
Speaker 4:Yeah, she's been the thing is, she's been ready.
Speaker 3:Were you nervous.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, I was so nervous Like not having her for the. I was very nervous leading up to it because I mean, before trial we were, we were um training twice a week back to back to back to back even three times a week, oh yeah, towards, like the last two weeks.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, cause we were like she's not going to be with her for a whole week, exactly.
Speaker 4:So I was freaking out, I didn't know how she was going to be, with a week break going into trials. So I was already kind of nervous for that. I mean she did fine.
Speaker 2:No, she did really well. She held it together dude.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she did, okay, she did all.
Speaker 4:Right, she did all right, but I was very nervous for day two. I didn't really know how she was going to. You know act on that second day, but she scored the same exact score both days, which is insane.
Speaker 2:That's tough.
Speaker 3:But that's consistency. Like a couple points difference from protection to One point each, it flip-flops.
Speaker 4:so the first day she got a what was it? Higher protection score and then one point and then one less obedience score, and then the next day it was like flip-flop she flipped yeah which is insane, but that also shows the consistency of the judging too, for sure like shout out steve, right, yes, yeah, steve's a good judge that was a very difficult he was. He was on.
Speaker 1:Let's like back it up and talk about PSA and what that actually is.
Speaker 2:So PSA, protection Sport Association it's basically combinations. It's funny talking about this because I've been barely doing it, but it's a combination of obedience and protection, bite work aspects that you're judged on uh, how clean your obedience is, how clean your protection is, um, there's a lot of stuff that goes into it. Now the pdc is the entry level, so basically they they don't call it a competitive level, even though it's fucking hard for some dogs. Okay, zeus got his pdc and I was on the fucking moon, I got the baddest bulldog in the west coast. Motherfuckers, I was happy as hell. But so it's the entry level which basically shows that, okay, your dog and your training's good enough to do the competitive levels. So that's why it's you don't get any of that for the pdc it's pass or fail it's pass or fail, right, you just okay, now you could start competing, right.
Speaker 2:And then the level one gets much more difficult compared to the contrast of the PDC, where there's like no decoys on the field, no distractions on the field. The level one there's decoys on the field, there's distractions, there's muzzle healing, there's a lot that goes into it and it typically it starts with an obedience portion. Right, the dog comes out, we do our obedience and some healing, some turns, some downs, and then we put the dog away, we come back out, do our protection portion. The level twos is the same concept. The obedience is just much harder. There's more distraction from the decoy, there's more ass out of the dog and the protection's a little bit more harder, more complex. And then level threes is just fucking a madhouse but the level three there's like no routine.
Speaker 2:No, nothing, it's just train for literally everything and fucking be ready. So it's a. It's a very fun sport. I definitely love the fact of it being a little crazy and the handler being able to help out a little bit. Right, there's some loopholes here and there. Uh, igp is very to the book like. This is how we do it. This is exactly how it's supposed to look. It's routine um, french ring, kind of the same. There's a routine um, and the pressure isn't the same as in psa. There's a chainsaw in a fucking room with five other guys.
Speaker 2:We're like buckets of water where french ring pressure is just oh, I'm gonna make your dog miss a fuckload, right, and then that's a different form of pressure. But PSA is a little bit crazier. We all train PSA out here in Southern California majority of us so it makes it easy for us to train for that sport. But all in all it's a very fun sport. But I talked about this last time too. I like the fact that there's a little leeway and loopholes, but I don't like the fact that there's not like consistent judging with every judge right. There's a lot of things that are up to judges discretion, and that's where I'm like, yeah man, sometimes I wish it was real black or white, but that's where the trials are yeah.
Speaker 3:So it's depending on which judge.
Speaker 2:Like yeah, like igp, it'll always be the exact same picture, yeah but I like that because like talk about what happened when she got hit by the fucking. What was it? The, the lasso or the bear, or some shit.
Speaker 4:Um yeah, so uh, during beretta's obedience portion there was a. What was it, tomo?
Speaker 3:it was like a giant there was like a cow, cow thing and in the seated decoy picture. Yes, basically, yeah, so you're supposed to down.
Speaker 4:You're supposed to down your dog in between the decoy that's in a seat and whatever objects on the other side, and this time it happened to be a giant cow stuffed animal, which how?
Speaker 3:do you? It was, it was gigantic, it was like the size of someone almost yeah, it was like two seated decoys, and so I've seen it on live bro the decoy is supposed to lasso the cow or, yeah, stuffed animal, in front of your dog, and so what? Like four dogs before me, he wasn't able to lasso it, because I mean it was, yeah, it was literally just the rope next to the dog and then on your turn he lassoed the cow.
Speaker 4:So the cow went like, uh, fly, not flying, but it went on its side in front of bretta. So bretta was technically out of view in the long down. She didn't have a problem with it. But imagine if a dog did or I don't like that shit.
Speaker 2:Yes, I like it. I like consistency. Every dog should have had that thing already pre-lassoed, so he could pull it and there'd be no inconsistencies but again, that's not even inconsistency in the judging, that's just like no.
Speaker 2:But I mean that's part of the routine for sure, right? I feel like we should make it. It was a slightly different picture for sure, and I think if we're all getting scored on the same shit, we should all see the same pictures to an extent right for sure, but again, it's the gift and the curse of psa there's leeway and it's sometimes good and it's sometimes bad sometimes in your favor, sometimes yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4:So well, there's like the surprise scenario of things too, for sure that surprise element. You don't really know what scenario you're going to get until you walk out onto the field and you don't even know what like. When's your turn? Yeah, until they, you know so there's a lot of different, I guess, factors that go into it, yeah.
Speaker 3:So should we break that down a little more? Like there's certain scenarios. Like you know the obedience routine, you know what it's going to look like and then you know what. Three scenarios for the one a variation of um.
Speaker 2:No, I think it's four, four, three or four scenarios that are surprise scenarios, so you could get one of the four um, but everybody gets the same one right.
Speaker 2:So there's definitely benefit to not trialing first in the in the order, because this way you get to see what's coming right and that kind of just gives you a little bit more time to kind of get your game plan going. You get to kind of see where dogs are messing up, where the judge is setting, because each judge kind of sets things up a little bit differently, um. But yeah, so that's the benefit of not going first is that you kind of get to see that you get to warm your dog up right, because before you go out on the trial field there's a warm-up area where you take your dog, you warm them up, you get them, get them ready to go. You have to. Then at some point there's like a cone and it's like okay, from this cone on, you can't have any e-collars, you can't have a prong car, you can't have any of that on your dog. So you have to.
Speaker 2:No more rewards no, no rewards either. So you have to shed the equipment, shed your reward, your rewards, and so it's very helpful if you have a good routine for that and that's something that kind of bummed me out that I wasn't able to be there for celine to like help her with that fucking shedding process.
Speaker 3:But shout out toma, toma came in through shane. Shane be literally calling us. I'm like trying to pick up your ball, do it slick, and I'm picking up the phone.
Speaker 2:Call meg I take it seriously, y'all, I take this shit seriously we had to like dial down his speaker on my phone he was like yelling at her.
Speaker 1:Her arm's not moving turn down the phone.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, yeah, no I can't help it, man, I'm I'm.
Speaker 3:I'm an emotional guy when it's definitely.
Speaker 2:yeah, I care, I love, I love this shit man, it's like our team out there and I'm like fuck yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker 3:No, it was cool, even if you you weren't there in person like you were going to hear me one way or another bro. You're going to hear me we heard you from above.
Speaker 4:You're going to hear me he was on the back of. I'm like trying to act as normal as possible. It's so awkward being up there too. It's tough too Cause it's hard.
Speaker 2:It's hard to prepare for trialing in front of a bunch of people.
Speaker 4:So hard? How do you know when you're ready?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. When everyone around you is telling you to hurry up and trial I think that's the best way is when everybody around you is telling you you're ready, that that's it, yeah.
Speaker 4:Best ways when everybody around you is telling you you're ready, that that's it. Yeah, if everybody's saying you're not ever feel ready Cause I was always like she doesn't have a whistle recall. Yet I don't want to trial until it's perfected and everyone was like well, F the whistle recall. Let's just get her to do everything else. Yeah, you got this, she's clearly right. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But that's part of the way our dogs hard right like brad is already ready for ready for some level two shit. Yeah, just because of how hard we train right. There's pros and cons to that, of course, um, but I think that helps us get like super prepared yeah like she was been ready. I mean you should be training for the level right to an extent right for sure you should make it a little bit harder than what it's already asked of it.
Speaker 2:Um, but again, having a good community around you makes that very, very helpful People you trust. So in case you're like no, I really don't feel ready and we're like dude, you're fucking ready, like OK, all right, all right, I trust it. But yeah, sometimes you don't always feel 100 percent ready.
Speaker 4:I didn't feel ready. I'm sure I know she was ready, I know she was fucking ready, but mentally I feel like you're never really mentally ready to step out on the trial field I mean that's just me at least. I don't know about shane or any.
Speaker 2:I can't speak for anyone else. He's probably ready.
Speaker 3:I'm freaking out when I'm ready I'm ready yeah, some people deal with trial nerves a lot better than others, you know I didn't even the night before. Yeah, toma, talk about it.
Speaker 4:Toma, I couldn't sleep the night before. I was stressing. Everyone was like how?
Speaker 2:do you look so chill? I mean, I smoke a lot of weed, so maybe that helps me sleep. The night before my first trial I was like antsy. Yeah, in the morning, no way, he's all with the cigarette in the backyard.
Speaker 1:Tomo was like tough.
Speaker 2:I mean I don't smoke, but yeah, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding, that's funny 100% Blowing bubbles.
Speaker 1:I was definitely getting on Meg's nerves. She's like chill, it's like 3 am and he's like flipping the lights on.
Speaker 3:And I was like oh, my gosh, gotta potty the dogs like five more times.
Speaker 1:I ain't gonna fail because my dog peed on the field.
Speaker 3:I will say that, like towards the third one, we got a little calm, yeah, yeah, um. Well, obedience always goes good. So that's the first thing right you got to pass obedience to make it to protection so at least I can make it through that.
Speaker 3:um, on my first trial I learned that Hawks e-collar wise and I didn't have an out on the second decoy, and at that point I had never like thought about that. So I didn't actually even know that like you can take your time between like outing. So I just like rapid fired through my three outs and that was a learning experience. So I think, if anything like, so far I've trialed three times and I've failed three times, but at least every time I've like learned something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you didn't fail three times, you just didn't pass.
Speaker 3:We don't fail. That's a very nice way of putting it.
Speaker 2:We don't fail Okay. I also know you say if you're not first, you're last there's two sides to this coin Toma Okay, there's two sides to this coin. Toma okay, there's two sides. If I can't even fast, I'm reading a vibe. That's what I'm gonna. That's the side you're gonna get. No well, it's part of it though it's part of it, but each time you fail with your dog out there, it gets harder yeah, for sure, because that's the thing he gets these reps, where he learns that he can get away with it.
Speaker 2:They put it together, they're like oh, crowded people, crowded people, fences, a judge, handlers, more stressed.
Speaker 4:Well, technically, the second time, that wasn't.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that wasn't too bad, because, yeah, he made it almost.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, no. You're forgetting about the second time. You're thinking about the third time. That's how many times that's?
Speaker 3:how many times? No, the second time, um, that was the same weekend which I remember already was very um yeah, risky to do.
Speaker 3:I think you just muted me. No, I know I hear you got you. Got you, um yeah, so I tried on. It was a three-day trial. I trialed on friday. He didn't out on the second decoy. I was like, okay, we can adjust the out, kind of like bandaid, quick fix, yeah, and I thought we had him like dialed. I was so focused on like how I was going to out, I was going to take my time between the outs and, like you know, I had my game plan. And then in the carjacking he actually kind of spun around, his leash got kind of shorter, so I extended my arm and then his collar slipped and next thing, you know, he had way too much leash and he like fell out of the car, cuts to video literally.
Speaker 2:I posted it on my instagram, I think. I think like there's nothing to be ashamed about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, shit happens and like might as well show the failures. It's like part of the process as well but, so that was the second time, and then the third time. Uh was three weeks later, so still very close and back to back, I think not enough time, and you didn't train a lot that last week either. No, three weeks crept up real quick, really fast um totally, you've been training, right, oh yeah so, yeah, basically, uh, I made it.
Speaker 3:I made it a little further, so first time it was only hey I'll tell you what, though.
Speaker 2:That motherfucker has the nicest out out of any of our dogs right now he has the fastest out right no e-collar no, nothing bro, he has the fastest.
Speaker 3:Fucking out you know, does that mean, I'm ready?
Speaker 2:uh, I, I think a mock trial I think a mock trial and hell yeah, I think you're, you're right there, um ready as you will be for sure, we gotta find a mock trial.
Speaker 3:I think a mock trial, yeah, I want to do a mock trial, and hell yeah, I think you're right there, ready as you will be For sure.
Speaker 1:We got to find a mock trial somewhere in the States. If you don't pass now, next life. I fear, I fear, wash them, you can keep them.
Speaker 2:You're just not a trial dog. Yeah yeah, it gets hard. You, you guys, the dogs, get really trial wise and that's why it's not smart it's typically not smart to trial them too consistently, because they'll start they'll put the contacts together very, very quickly, and I mean I, I knew this.
Speaker 3:I think I was uh at that moment.
Speaker 2:I was also defensive like keeping him um, yeah, and to be fair, toma got this dog at what a year? Two years old. Yeah, he came with some baggage, right he? Came with some baggage, you know like he's came a long way if you let's cut to a video of tomah when he first got to southern california. You see that shit? Okay, then we'll cut to another one where he's now no, it's a lot.
Speaker 2:A lot of people helped you um but, you've definitely made a lot of improvement, but it is fucking hard to get these dogs with baggage or bad training and trying to fix it. There's a reason why I get fucking young puppies every single time yeah, because I can mold it right when you take shit on, like that man, these dogs. I know everybody thinks Malinois are biddable. They are not biddable. Yeah, they are not easy to fucking change and manipulate what they want to do. That shit is not easy, for sure, right. They fucking change and manipulate what they want to do. That shit is not easy, for sure, right. They're motivated, but just as motivated as they are to do things we want them to do. They're also that motivated to do things we don't want to do. That benefits them, yeah. And for hawk, that's not outing and he's like I know dad's telling me to fucking out.
Speaker 2:I just don't give a fuck, I'm on it, you know but again, that's why I teach my dogs real young how to out real young. Right, but that it's the downfall.
Speaker 3:Man in training with e-collar on, even if I don't use it, he had nice outs I think yeah, my, you weren't even thinking but we never true, we never.
Speaker 1:You never trained without an e-collar for sure and that's again why I like training without an e-collar okay, let's talk about this because that's a controversial thing, because some people leading up to the trials are like e-collar never take the e-collar off. Like never have the dog.
Speaker 2:You know that they're not wearing a device so take everything I say with a grain of salt. Right, guys, I haven't been trialing for too long. I only have slim. We've made it to level two. I've done my pdc in street league with zeus, but I am not the fucking trial expert or anything. I just know what I've done, right? Um, I feel like for a dog like mine, I like him to not have an e-caller on during some training. One like man, the more, the more I'm training, the more I try to get away from using it so much. Right, you guys? See me, I do. I do a lot of sessions without his e-collar and it gives you a good indicator.
Speaker 3:Like.
Speaker 2:I get to see where he's at. And the thing is is that when the dogs don't have an e-collar on, they're aware that they will not be punished, right. And so this is where the dog starts getting sloppy. The dog starts doing stuff that feel good to them. Why would slim stare and heal at me if he could stare and look at the decoy which feels good for him, like that dopamine rush is going and there's no punishment to get him away from that? That's where the dog's like okay, nothing's gonna happen. Right, here, I can do this. And so what we have to do is figure out different ways that I could punish my dog without the e collar, right, because just because he doesn't have an e-collar doesn't mean he's not getting punished. He's gonna get punished, right. But I think without the e-caller, right, because just because he doesn't have an e-caller doesn't mean he's not getting punished. He's gonna get punished, right.
Speaker 2:But I think without the e-caller. It forces me to kind of utilize negative punishment more than anything where it's like okay, you're not doing it right, lay down time out, tomo, come over here, let's go chat over here, leave slim there, yeah. And so I'm like what the like that is literally? You guys have seen this man. The most punishing thing in the world for slim isn't an e-caller. I've had the chameleon. We could fucking tie the chameleon up to another e-call. It's not no amount of pain is going to punish him. How does slim look when I tell him to go to his crate?
Speaker 3:he's like, he looks like he looks like I.
Speaker 1:Just that was what you did with beretta the other day too, and beretta was like uh-huh, he like, because I am taking away his fun I'm taking away.
Speaker 2:The one thing he wants to do is stay out and work and I'm like, nope, you're going inside your crate and you see it and I could hit him on high stim, and he doesn't show his body language like that only time he walks, dude. I've never seen the fucking dog walk with tail, like not tail tuck, but tail low, and he's just like oh my god, I fucking hate the crate because it means fun stops right.
Speaker 2:So all this to say that I like not using the e-caller and utilizing other forms of punishment, and sometimes it's just doing it again. Hey, recall, okay, he went up to the decoy instead. No, don't do that, dummy, get your butt over here and let's get back into it. Right, and so that's the value of having a good punishment marker. I don't always have to use the punishment itself.
Speaker 2:The e-collar stem, the prong collar I just yell no and he's just like, oh, fuck, okay, I fucked up and now I don't get any baggage of the e-collar and the pain that comes with. You know the adrenaline and all that shit that comes with high level stems and whatnot. So I like training without an e-collar. Some people don't. I think if the foundation's there do it. But I mean, fuck, at this point I can't even think about what I really I think we used to stim a lot more in the heel and they would.
Speaker 3:Both our dogs would be a lot more vocal I definitely fucked that shit up.
Speaker 1:We're real young with slim but that was like one of the questions that I had when I first started watching all of you guys train for sport is, uh like, how do you fade the e-collar out? Because in my eyes, like I have seen a lot of dogs that like very much they they know when they have the e-collar on and they don't you know. So I'm like you can't tell me that we're gonna go into trial and that dog is not gonna be aware that they don't have the e-collar on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, she's doubted me for a long time.
Speaker 1:I mean like literally from day one I was like hawk is not stupid, he knows, and so I told you that was like a question that I had like when we first got into it, and I would like ask toma, I'm like how?
Speaker 2:like, do you?
Speaker 1:ever fade that out, because the response from a lot of people is like no you don't you just want the dog to always think that they have the e-collar on and then you have the like routine before to shed the e-collar, but what didn't? Wasn't somebody who recently trialed talking about how they don't do that they like don't shed their equipment because they assume that the dogs already?
Speaker 2:I gave up with slim, yeah I'm just like hey bark, and then I take it off. The dog knows well, once they start doing stuff, that typically gets them in trouble. And they're not getting in trouble, the dog's picking it up very quickly well, and I think they smell it too right, like they could feel it like there's there's so many cues dude, there's so many, they hear the button of you pressing like, yeah, there's so many cues right, but at the end of the day, have a strong foundation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, know where your holes are. Right, I punish my dog utilizing other punishments than the e-caller, but I also make the dog want to do things they don't want to do. You don't want to out, but when you out you get a bite right away. So it might be a good idea to out. Right. So like and again, we teach these concepts real young right? So like with Mojo.
Speaker 2:I don't have to use much prep. Mojo's only 10 months. I don't have to use much pressure on mojo. I go no, don't do that. He's like oh fuck, okay, right, so like. I could literally go sessions without e-car training mojo at all, because the concepts were so clear of like hey, don't do that, hey, you have to relax, hey, you have to wait. That now, at this age, it's normal to him yeah, we're like hawk is like no, I don't have to sit, I don't have to wait, I don't have to out. They've showed me that for this whole entire year. I don't have to do none of that shit. And now sometimes you have to use a little bit more pressure to get him to comply better foundation and better relationship bro and you don't have to use it.
Speaker 2:That I remember michael ellis when he came down. He's like, yeah, I hardly use the. He's like once my dog gets around this age, he's like I hardly use the e-caller. And so ever since I heard that, I've been trying to model my training off of that and like trying to figure out okay, where can I not use the e-caller, where can I just verbally tell my dog no? But the issue is that a lot of dogs don't have respect for their owner's nose. So when you're going, no, the dog's like I don't fucking care, I'm biting anyways. Well, now you have to add some form of pressure, because now you need to give meaning to your no. But you have seen it with all my dogs for sure no, and they're like oh, fuck, okay my bad, my bad and I'm like okay, heal, let's try it again, buddy right going back to like forms of punishment.
Speaker 3:I feel like early on I did a lot of that, like um, trying to work on neutrality. Hawks cracked out put them up, put them in the crate. Yeah, put them up, put them up like session after session I think just small disclaimer on it, but it's like that created a lot of frustration. Yeah, and sometimes there's just value in just like downing your dog, like I feel like that's worked.
Speaker 3:Yeah, kind of time out, bro, put him in the time out but he's still there and then, like, session goes on and that's all. You need Some food.
Speaker 2:I used food a shitload when slim was like real twitchy and leaky.
Speaker 2:I don't add um, I used a lot of food right, so like I think outside of the box, man, and now I'm loving kind of where my training's at right now with slim yeah, where, like you know, and I'm like like I like that and I see it without the e-collar and yeah, the dog's gonna get a little sloppy but, like I know, for the most part slim isn't gonna bite when he's not supposed to. Maybe he'll drop his head and look at his decoy every now and again but I know he's not doing big things.
Speaker 2:That's going to get us disqualified, right, and that's just from consistent training. But yeah, I understand the concept of never have the e-collar off. Um, I just don't like it and I remember I told you guys this before we trial. I was like I'm gonna be the test dummy, I'm gonna see like I'm not gonna use my e collar, I'm gonna do sessions without the e-collar. We're gonna see how fucking slim looks at trial and he killed it well, sometimes it also makes dogs look more twitchy like bretta.
Speaker 2:Bretta, for sure, looks a little bit more twitchy with the e-collar on.
Speaker 4:Yeah, she knows it's on.
Speaker 2:So we've been doing a lot of and again, guys, like part of that is the dog and part of it's bad training, right. But like we're very young, psa club, psa club, right yeah uh-huh, but like we're learning a lot of this stuff as we go For sure, and so I feel like once I started seeing it was slim, what did I start telling you to do?
Speaker 4:Take off the heat collar? No, she doesn't need it. She doesn't need it. A lot of people are just so dependent on it.
Speaker 2:I mean you think you're dependent on it, yeah, or you think you're not, and then you take it off and you're like, oh fuck, no, it's always funny because it's not on.
Speaker 4:and you're like the other e-collar on. I'm like no, no, you're like well, this is what's on.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I did that the other day for the first time.
Speaker 2:I had my remote.
Speaker 3:I'm like going on those fields and I'm like, oh shit he's naked do you use?
Speaker 2:it like early on to teach behavior for sure. Okay, to reinforce behaviors, just right, I typically teach the behavior right like I teach the out. I start the owl where I say done. And I give him a piece of treat. Done, give him a piece of treat. Done, give him a piece of tree. And then I say done. And he's like where's my treat? Good job, buddy.
Speaker 2:And then I start rewarding him with the toy done. Pretend to give him a piece of treat and he pops off yes. And then I start rewarding him with the toy done. Pretend to give him a piece of treat and he pops off yes. And then I pay him back with the toy. Then I start adding in leash pressure for that. So now I start correcting him with the leash done. He doesn't let go. Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, let's go. Once he starts understanding that, now I start adding in low stim with those pops done, pop, pop, pop, stim, stim, stim. He's like spits it out. Yeah, good boy. Once he understands that concept, like I stim him, he spits it out. Okay, now you fucking know, you're showing me that you know. Now I start cranking it up a little bit to more of a punishing level.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. And then I say done, he doesn't let go Boom it. But when you do it real young, and you condition it very well, I hardly have to do it anymore. That much I mean you're not.
Speaker 1:You're not staying in the like escape phase for very long I've.
Speaker 2:I believe the quicker you could get out of escape, the better. The quicker you can move into avoidance, the better. I don't want to have to keep using it, but everybody loves the low level stim and so does does your fucking dog.
Speaker 2:And you're going to keep staying with that low level stim because the dog's always going to depend on it, right? So again, the quicker I moved to avoidance, the quicker I stopped using the fucking e-caller, and if your timing is good, the quicker I could condition my punishment marker. No high punishment, no high punishment. I don't need that fucking thing. My dog doesn't know, hey, no, and he's like, oh fuck, okay, sorry, yeah, but I always have that I always have my voice, I always have my body, I always have my social pressure.
Speaker 2:I don't always have an e-caller, so if the dog has respect for that and yes, you guys, there's things that I cannot make the slim's not going to want to let go all the time. So he needs to know he has to, and if he doesn't, he needs to know those consequences.
Speaker 1:Being able to provide those consequences in different ways is super beneficial, and this is pet dog stuff too, right like yeah, well that's kind of why I got at that of like getting out of the escape phase as soon as possible because that's what I see a lot of like dog trainers do, or even like dog owners do yeah is like the low stim and like pressing and holding and I'm like, no, you got to get out of that.
Speaker 1:Like your dog knows, your dog knows what they need to do, and they're just like, if you're pressing those, there's not a real consequence I'll wait till you remind me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll wait till you nag me, and no, right so?
Speaker 1:another thing that I've also seen in like sport obedience is the. I guess it's kind of the equivalent of like the popping of the prong collar for like IGP healing, but like stim is, and I almost feel like the dogs become reliant on like the stim to like head up all the time. And then that person is like stuck with this, like adult dog that like every single time they're healing they are having to like stim the dog into, like the heel position.
Speaker 2:It becomes part of the command.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and in my mind I'm like how are you ever going to try all that?
Speaker 2:dog. It's going to be very, very difficult, but people level stems nicer right, so people like to kind of stick with that because it's a cool concept. Uh-huh, it's a cool concept fade away I think so.
Speaker 2:And you pet dogs do. There's pet dog people like doing like nipopo stuff with like pet dogs and like you're they're tweaking these dogs out on low level stem. I know like they feel the low level stim and a lot of pet people don't want that you guys. Some pet people just want their dog to go to a place and lay down and settle, not place, yes, yeah, place, yeah, like you're going to geek a dog up with that, um, but yeah. So I try to get away from low level stim as quickly as possible and move into avoidance. So remember, the dog decides the stim, right, low level stim for zeus is seven on a mini educator for slim it's like 35, yeah, right, so like the dog decides the stim.
Speaker 3:But yeah, people get stuck in it and I get it, it's, it's nicer, right, like it sounds much better, but I think that's the beauty of trialing as well, because, like if you never had to trial, never had to like, think about these things, your dog can always look great with e-collar on with low level stim.
Speaker 2:And that's where the kind of debate comes into play where they're like there's some people in the school of thought of like, are you really a good trainer if you've never competed before? Yeah Right, and they, they, even they. They even put that towards pet dog people. They're like, well, how do you know? Like like have you ever competed before that? Um, on the fence of. I think there's benefits of competing, but I mean, meg's a really good pet dog trainer. She's never competed before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I also think like training with you guys has made me a much better pet dog trainer so I feel like there's like I could only imagine, if I'm like an old dog trainer and I'm seeing like younger dog trainers like act like they know everything, and then it's I've been trialing for years, you know.
Speaker 2:What would you say is a big takeaway for you, unlike, like our pet dog, stuff relating to sport, dog stuff or what you've learned, the timing is really precise, and so you have to be able to like read the dog very quickly.
Speaker 1:you know, and you have to know what to do, do like exactly in that moment, and you're almost kind of like always thinking fast thinking fast thinking, always thinking 10 steps ahead, and I think that that is valuable because I think when I was training pets I didn't like the timing, is you know?
Speaker 2:I'm not marking like a super specific moment in time.
Speaker 1:No, whereas with a pet it's like, okay, this dog is kind of loading up a little bit and then I'll move them out of the way and it's more about reading, like body language amongst dogs, but it's made me a lot more aware of like what I am marking and rewarding yeah, I've literally trained pet dogs with like little to no markers yeah like it's.
Speaker 2:It's not a huge thing, but I like how, every time I tell you about that, you're like but Shane, as a trainer, you should be able to use your markers fucking grab like you know what fuck.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're right, like I totally agree with that, um, but yeah, like the marking is super important. What about you, celine, because I know you started. I mean, draco was like your pet dog first, before you started doing work. So, like where did you kind of be like okay, like this is a little different, like pet dog stuff. We're not encouraging behavior like this. And now I'm like I'm trying to make him into a working dog or whatever.
Speaker 4:I didn't think there was even well going into training dogs in general, since yeah, talk about how you got started, yeah yeah, yeah. So with Draco. I got got Draco as a puppy I think I was only 21 or something like that and I was like I just want a really well-trained.
Speaker 3:Doberman Cause. I didn't want him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't want him to be, or maybe I was 22. I forgot.
Speaker 4:But uh, yeah, I got Draco and I pretty much was like I, you've been training longer than us. Well, I mean, I didn't really train.
Speaker 2:Oh, I got you.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean. Like it was first dog ownership, yeah.
Speaker 4:Okay, first working dog I've always had dogs, but I've never had a big powerful dog so. I was a little like, okay, don't really want to mess this up.
Speaker 2:You said chicken, picked them out, he wanted a Doberman or no, I wanted you wanted the oh okay, yeah, that's what it was. That's what it was.
Speaker 4:Well, he was my boyfriend. But yeah, my husband wanted a. Chihuahua at the time, but I wanted a Doberman. It was actually between. They get a minpin Compromised. It was between an American Akita actually.
Speaker 2:Oh my.
Speaker 1:God, thank God.
Speaker 3:Imagine if I went down that route instead.
Speaker 2:Thank goodness, that would be crazy, it was between an American Akita or a Doberman.
Speaker 3:You would she would have had one dog, it would have ended there.
Speaker 2:I want a Shavarkian Shepherd. That's so random.
Speaker 3:It would have just ended at American Akita, honestly, if I went that route, but, you know, got a Doberman instead.
Speaker 4:So got Draco. I was like I don't really know how to train at the time. I had small dogs but I was always really interested in it and then I just wanted pet obedience at the time Did you even know like training was a thing, because when I first got, Zeus I had no clue.
Speaker 2:Dog training was like an industry.
Speaker 4:I didn't know it was to the extent that it is. I knew it was an industry like the pet stuff sit, stay whatever. Stuff like that, and I always wanted him to be very chill in public, like I can take him everywhere right obviously he's a doberman, so not really the case, but I wanted a dog that wasn't a liability yeah, yeah, yeah so then I went to two different pet dog trainers.
Speaker 4:It was not, I remember, I was at work and chick was at home, and he's like. This trainer is literally taking photos of draco and just luring him and saying sit, sit and chick was like what the fuck is going on like.
Speaker 2:This is bullshit you know, he's already told him that exactly.
Speaker 4:He knows that one so dumb and then so we started doing more research and then I was on instagram and then that's how I found oscar. It was between oscar and another training company and I decided to go with elevated. And then so Oscar came by, picked up Draco. I told him that I just wanted like pet obedience on him. Nothing too crazy.
Speaker 2:Oscar used to tell me that he just had like a regular car back then he's like bro.
Speaker 4:I used to just throw him in the back of my regular car. Yeah, did. He came to my house. I think he had a van at the time okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it wasn't like a dog van huh, it was like a fucking like a mom van, like a slide with his, uh, with his son, picked up draco no way he took
Speaker 4:his kid yeah came by, picked up draco kind of, told him what I was like looking for nothing too crazy. He didn't really never, he he never had an issue. Yeah, yeah, he was a clean slate honestly and then took draco and for a board and train and I remember I was sitting on my phone and I saw a dog doing that like fancy I didn't know what it was called at the time I was like that looks so cool, and so I told oscar I want my dog to like learn this, and you know wise words of a 22 year old selene.
Speaker 4:After that it was kind of yeah. So then he put a focused heel on Draco and I was very excited about that and then I think I forgot if I told Oscar I wanted bite work on him or Oscar just like kind of tried it out right and said he had the drive to do it, and then so we started bite work and that was kind of how we started.
Speaker 4:And then I kind of learned. I don't know, I started going out more to club when he was doing like bite nights and stuff like that, and then I kind of learned, I don't know, I started going out more to club when he was doing like bite nights and stuff like that, and then learning then and oscar pretty much put I I do give all the credit to oscar for draco's training and I've never hid that for sure from the internet.
Speaker 2:There is a maintenance do with yeah, I mean you would you know that's the kind thing to do. No, but you did the right thing of like you got this drivey big ass dog. Oh, I see, yeah, I mean you would.
Speaker 1:You know that's the kind thing to do, no, but you did the right thing of like you got this drivey big ass dog oh, I see, yeah I'm gonna find a good trainer for sure, yeah, we went through so many bad ones.
Speaker 4:I think we went through like three bad ones. It happens, guys, it happens I wouldn't say they were horrible, but it was like we were there's tears like, compared to oscar, the level of training was completely at a different level. And I remember he brought Oscar or he brought Oscar. He brought Draco back and Draco was a completely different dog and I was like whoa. I didn't even know that this was possible, and so we started working with Oscar more, and he just got better and better each time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And that's kind of how I started and I got really interested in it and then we started doing bite work and then um oscar got a bh on draco and yeah, so it was a really cool bh is igp, it's the entry, it's the pdc of igp.
Speaker 2:Um yeah, so he got a yeah, the bh we were going to do igp and to celine's defense too there is a lot of maintenance that goes into that, right. So like yes, oscar, but it's just like a boarding train you're training the dog. If the owner doesn't keep up with what was taught and maintain it, it's gonna fade and it's gonna go to shit, right? So, yes, oscar, definitely trained him and did all of that, but you still had to upkeep it yeah, yeah, I think that's another misconception and that was what, how many years ago so right.
Speaker 4:So, like you, you still had to upkeep it and do stuff. So he had that six years ago and he's still great. But yeah, Oscar only took him for that period of time off and on and I would just go out to training with him and do one-on-ones and this is what Megan and I were talking about last time.
Speaker 2:Like you're a good trainer, yeah, thank you Like, you're a damn good trainer. Thank you, because with Beretta, oscar did a lot of Ber is obedience. Yeah, he wasn't nearly as involved with bretta as he was with draco, and part of that, guys, is because and I could relate to this with oscar's, he doesn't have to. Yeah, no, if I see celine's doing really great on her focus. He'll cool. We don't fucking have to work on that. Yeah, no, let's work on the shit that you can't do by yourself, right?
Speaker 4:so like that's sometimes, uh, a good thing yeah, I feel like the tools that I learned from uh he, that he taught me from exactly, I just applied to beretta and it was pretty much the same train. I wouldn't say the same level of training, because he has a lot more experience than I do, but it's the same concepts celine is very humble also.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I was like you're a better dog trainer than most of the dog trainers literally like literally dude, it's true you guys are lucky.
Speaker 2:Celine doesn't want to be a dog trainer right, it'd be a wrap. No, but it takes skill and talent, and bret is a fucking. She's a twitchy, intense dog.
Speaker 1:She's a lot like she's the type of dog like I.
Speaker 2:Guarantee you hand her to some pet dog trainers, they'd be scared of her yeah, oh, a thousand percent does she have a muzzle?
Speaker 4:yeah, she has a lot of dog and I I feel, since I started with a doberman, kind of an off breed yeah, much different, completely different I much slower pace, so different and as much I know that's a big argument too with like the working doberman stuff. I don't want to go into that, but it's another podcast but, there are different breeds at the end of the day, and they are still considered off breeds.
Speaker 2:Whether you want to admit that or not, there's not many Dobermans in the sport of PSA.
Speaker 4:I can only handful in one hand that I know that are excelling in the sport, and so with Draco, I mean, I got him as a pet.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I excelling in the sport. And so with draco I mean I got him as a pet.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I didn't get him for bite work, just so happened to work.
Speaker 2:Huh he just so happened to be kind of like zeus. Yeah, this was very similar story, similar story got zeus but I didn't know about dog training. Um, I didn't fucking have no money for dog training I shouldn't have gotten a dog right
Speaker 2:I probably shouldn't have gotten a dog, but this dude was rehoming this blue nose pit bull. Full bred. I was like, oh, 200 bucks, yeah, bro, it's a steal. Train them. I started doing luring and stuff with him. I used to see all Micah Ellis's videos on YouTube and shit, we were not. And this was only fuck six years ago, just six years ago, there was no dog trainers with patreons or subscriptions or communities like covid changed a lot of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there was. There was none of that shit. So, like I'm over here, all we had was learberg videos offered with michael ellis. Uh, robert cabral had some videos. I seen zach george's videos, right like I was on youtube university and I just started training him.
Speaker 2:He went through a whole reactive stage. He was a dog park dog, he was a pit bull. Pit bull, don't fucking crucify me, he's a bully mutt. You guys relax. Um, it's gonna get clipped, I know gonna get clipped. Mislabeling kills. What if I gotta say more pit bulls and fucking. But anyway, so started doing my own training with him. Um, he was a very forgiving dog. I did a lot of trial and error with that poor dog trying to figure out that. I went from force free to compulsion to fucking. I did his e-collar conditioning horrible, like I just fucking. That dog is a very forgiving dog, um, but yeah, so then eventually I met uh, real deal, dave. I saw him on instagram and I was like oh, fucking, zeus loves to tug. I think zeus will do bike work. Took him down, natural, bro, he's biting the shuts and sleeve like the first time he's tied back like natural.
Speaker 2:I was like, oh, this is the fucking coolest thing in the world, and like I would go, for I would work construction all fucking day. I'd 12, 13 hour day, then I'd drive to par to Paris, where Dave had a spot at, and then I'd be there till fucking 12, midnight and shit, just like shooting the shit and shout out real deal, dave. He showed me a lot of love when I was there. I was definitely that annoying kid asking a hundred fucking questions about shit, and he was always happy to teach me and tell me things Right. So and that's kind of rare sometimes Shout out to real deal, dave. He definitely introduced me into the whole fucking the bite work world.
Speaker 2:And then, as I kind of got involved with that, I started seeing sport dog videos and then, um, I would. I'd seen Oscar's videos and I'd hear about Oscar and I was like, oh, fuck, yeah, like I want to train with that guy. Motherfucking. Oscar left me on red, left me on red in Um, and like I just kept hitting him up and I was like, bro, come on, just let me train with you. And he, finally, after he saw me at street league is when he started having me come Cause I did. I did street league with Zeus like all by myself, although obedience, everything was like all by myself and street leagues fucking hard, bro, like street leagues hard.
Speaker 2:And so like I did the entry level, like all by myself, aside from the bite work. Um, and then Oscar saw me there and he's like, oh, I just, he's like I liked your attitude, he's like I like how you came out, and so like he invited me out and then I was like, bro, I'll pick up dog shit, fucking, whatever you need, bro, just let me know, I want to help, I want to be here, I want to train. And he was receptive of that. And the guy never even charged me. Like to this day still doesn't take my fucking money.
Speaker 2:Um, and so then, once Oscar started, I was training dogs like pet dogs, for like two, three years before I met Oscar. And then I met Oscar and that's when he kind of started showing me some more of the working dog world. He definitely put me on some good stuff with the pet dogs. The business aspect, like, shout out, oscar, oscar, he's a very low key OG out here in Southern California. Like he's put on a lot of trainers Me, celine, chris Sykes, christian Gomez, the two new guys he's got right now are learning a lot and they're doing very well. Like I always tell this to him like leaders create leaders. And Oscar he kills it with that shit like it's not, like he's just like. Oh well, you know I helped Shane out with his dog and, yeah, his dog's nice. No, I'm like literally teaching other people shit now right, like it's like big dog trainers.
Speaker 2:That and there's not. I can't think of one person in my head that's produced dog trainers.
Speaker 1:I've learned more from Oscar than I have like any other dog trainer. Crazy, right, like, like, like. It's insane.
Speaker 2:So like shout out Oscar man Whenever he'd like to start training again, we'd love to have you back bro, we miss you man.
Speaker 3:That's the clip that needs to get clipped.
Speaker 2:I'm running out of ideas bro. I don't know what to do.
Speaker 4:Shouting into the podcast.
Speaker 2:I remember even when I um, I don't know what to do.
Speaker 4:Shouting into the podcast. I remember even when I was posting Draco's training.
Speaker 2:Chris Sykes. Did I mention Chris Sykes? Yeah, he won the Oscar too, yeah.
Speaker 4:But anyways, yeah, when I was posting Draco's training and people, even online, were like Oscar, trained your dog, and I always have given him credit. He actually you jealous, no jelly. He actually you're jealous, no jelly.
Speaker 1:he like replied to one of the comments and was like made a full video and was like celine puts in so much work with her dogs.
Speaker 4:I might have put the foundation down and I might have taught her a lot of things but at the end of the day, if you don't like put up with or keep maintenance, maintenance, like what you're training him twice a week yeah, once and twice a week, four For years at least Exactly. It's five days where you've got to be doing something, but even then, if you just go to club and you just show up and you just train at club, for what we get, I don't know a couple minutes each, maybe an hour each.
Speaker 2:We could tell which ones just do that.
Speaker 4:We could tell who's just training their dogs at club's a lot of doing things at home. I train pretty much every day, but I keep my sessions short.
Speaker 3:I might not train as much as you, because you're training 24 7 so much, and I train as much as I can, as much as I have time to yeah, that's always home live for me when I'm like okay, I know celine doesn't train as much as me can, as much as I have time to, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's always humbling for me when I'm like, okay, I know Celine doesn't train as much as me, but yeah, her dog looks really fucking nice. I'm like what?
Speaker 4:is going on, for sure, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Too much is not good enough. And then even.
Speaker 4:Oscar would tell you get another dog if you want to train.
Speaker 2:so much Oscar used to tell me that shit Slim was tweaking out. That's when, like oscar saw slim for the first time. Uh, and I was like bro, he's just crazy all the time. He's like you train him too much. He's like, get another fucking dog if you want to train that much. He's like you train him too much and like, well, the first time he, he likes slim. He he's never been a huge fan of the bull herders, but he likes slim. He was like bro, he's like you're fucking lucky. He's like your first dog and you got a good one yeah, and I was like yeah, but I don't know his food drive isn't that high.
Speaker 2:Like I was doing all this fucking talking all this shit on him and slim I probably I'd be surprised if I get. I should get at least one more like slim. But I'd be surprised if I see two more dogs like slim in my lifetime, like he is just a super intense, really really good fucking dog. Shout out apex canine. Uh, I got slim out from the UK Really really good dog. But yeah, oscar saved my ass with that. I was ready to crash out with that dog. I was like Zeus wasn't like there's shit Zeus couldn't do and I used to get frustrated with Zeus about it. And I'm like, bro, like Zeus, why can't you do this? Like, come on, zeus is like why don't you live on three acres, you dick?
Speaker 3:So so I can chase squirrels, you got me in this fucking apartment right but, so like there's always things we could do better, but uh, yeah.
Speaker 2:So eventually I was like, okay, I need a new dog like zeus. I love zeus, but I'm starting to get too upset with him because he has these shortcomings, which is just genetic. Right like I can't do anything I did oh, dude, I mean, you've seen, you've worked zeus. He's a good fucking dog for someone's backyard for sure, bro he's. I'd feed that dog like he's a good fucking dog man. I trust that dog. Zeus has had my back before in real life scenarios, yeah, like so like I really trust that dog.
Speaker 1:I was super lucky, um, but yeah, that's just kind of how it goes, you know do you think the sport training has helped you work through the reactivity that you were struggling with him?
Speaker 2:yeah for sure like letting him have an outlet right like he. Definitely he liked reacting to dogs. I'm telling listen, you guys, fucking zoom in and listen really closely your dog. There's a good chance. They love being reactive, they love lunging, they love barking, they love doing this stuff right. So part of a dog like him is finding a proper outlet for that. You like getting aroused. Okay, let's control it and let's teach you where to direct it right. And so by work, totally. I know that's why he took it so naturally.
Speaker 2:He's like looking at him, he's like I could buy my allowed, I could lunch I can do these I'm like, yeah, good boy, and so like it's amazing that that fulfillment and again, I didn't know any reactivity protocols, I didn't know counter conditioning, I didn't know fucking jack shit about anything and literally the reactivity just started going away. When I just started playing with him more and giving him more of an outlet, I stopped focusing on like okay, let me work on reactivity. I was like let me just fucking play with you, and now he's money. I mean, you've seen little wolf snap at him and he's like, oh you crazy little fucker. And he backs away like now he's money. Right, he's still an intact male bulldog at the end of the day, so there's definitely things that he won't vibe with. You know other intact males giving him some funky body language.
Speaker 2:but super stable dog, yeah, super, super stable, rather like give them space yeah, if they allow it, yeah, but some dogs are dicks, bro, and like Zeus will give them that, and then they follow him and he's like hey, bro, I'm walking away for your benefit, man, you know.
Speaker 3:So that's where.
Speaker 2:Walter's, no different.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it's definitely, it definitely helped out and that's why, like every time I work, like especially with like really reactive dogs, very reactive dogs, I see potential. Yeah, I'm like, okay, there's drive, your dog has just chosen the wrong job. Right, we need to show them something else. And so, like we always introduce play, bite, work, something where I'm like this dog needs to get crazy I also think it's very fulfilling as the dog owner yeah as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's more fun, right, because you're struggling with your dog all the time and then it's like you finally have an outlet where it's like the dog's doing well uh-huh, so that's cool yeah, no, I think that that's a big thing and I always tell owners I'm like, hey, try this week, focus on what your dog is good at yeah stop doing shit. They. I'm like would you like to do shit? You're not good at all the time. I'm like, fuck, no, you would stop wanting to go out places.
Speaker 1:You're like, dude, I suck because that's what a lot of dog training is. Right is like focusing on the problem and trying to fix the problem, and I talked about this because larry crone made a post. Uh-huh, um, did you see that?
Speaker 2:oh, shout out larry too. I used to watch a lot of his old youtube videos.
Speaker 1:He is how I learned like e-collar training. Yeah, I bought his book way back and I don't read for shit it's a good book it's easy
Speaker 1:I bought his book so shout out larry crong, it's an easy read, for sure but, he made a post basically talking about like there was a younger dog trainer that he was kind of you know, coaching, like mentoring, and they had a client dog that they were really struggling with and so the kid like referred this client to larry and larry did a couple lessons with them over the couple days and was able to like fix the dog's problems.
Speaker 1:And the kid comes to him and is like how did you do that? Like, why was I struggling with this dog for so long? And larry was like well, I just trained the dog. I didn't focus on the problem or like fixing the problem, I just focused on our foundations the relationship, the relationship and just training the dog and when you focus on training the dog, like a lot of those problems they fucking go away, they go away.
Speaker 2:I do the same with resource guarding. Yeah, I hardly ever directly address that, hardly ever. Like we just build that relationship, we have some fun, and then, hey, go to your bed, leave the bowl alone, okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm like okay.
Speaker 2:You know, like, like you, you build that trust. Um, and that's something that I think a lot of sport dog trainers are really good at is building that motivation and playing with the dog and bringing that out of the dog. I think a lot of sport trainers who do do pet work though they have a hard time finding the balance of, like, okay, but this isn't a sport dog, right? Yes, I I want to bring, I want this dog to have some fun. Yes, I want this dog to look good, I want all of this stuff, but at the end of the day, I can't create a working dog for this pet owner, right, right, like, I need this dog to be a little settled, right, and so that's the beauty of being good within the sport work is. Now, I know how to bring more out of a dog and I know how to put some away with a dog, where I'm like okay, you're a little too jazzed up, we need to slow you down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's all has been. A lot of my training is like like slowing the dogs down, like it's just like pet training like pet training is like slow and boring and methodical, but I think there's value in getting a dog like up in their state you know like aroused and then able to control the dog in that state that's literally all.
Speaker 2:Play is right like that's literally play and people don't even realize it and I'm like dude, play like again plans, plays not the end.
Speaker 4:All be all so I'm like I.
Speaker 2:I know a lot of working dogs who play a lot and are still reactive as fuck. Right, so play is not the end, all be all, but it's a super, super valuable piece, like a super valuable piece, you know. But yeah, I know working dogs who are aggressive and reactive as fuck and they play hell. They might do, might work like they're fulfilled. So it's not always only about fulfillment but fulfillment. But man, it fucking plays a huge role.
Speaker 3:A lot of pets have no outlet at all and that's the issue.
Speaker 2:Reactivity becomes the outlet and the dog's like well, this is fun, this is enjoyable, this is nice, or even like I talked about the last time we tried to record this.
Speaker 1:I talked about hawk and how, like when you came to me, I was like this is a board and train and train.
Speaker 3:Oh for sure he's part like behavior model.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like this is.
Speaker 3:this is a behavioral model Like I had all this fancy healing and shit and I couldn't even walk around. Couldn't even walk around.
Speaker 2:Damn Like I literally, could you know?
Speaker 3:That's how my dog, not anymore. That's how my dogs start. But now all my dogs walk nice In a but again, that's the benefit to getting involved with sport, you guys.
Speaker 2:So if you're a pet dog trainer and you're not involved in sport dogs, maybe you don't care to compete. Try to get around them, man, it's good to learn these motives. I've seen Meg literally I call her Megan Ellis. Now I see her play skills, her luring skills, everything is completely transformed and I'm like, holy shit, like that is so good. And now meg, because she came from that peck down pet dog foundation, she has the a very good balance yeah of like okay, this dog needs some more pet dog stuff.
Speaker 2:Okay, this dog needs some more working dog stuff. Right, and I think this is a um a big reason why michael ellis is successful as he is, because he's done both he also does a very good job of simplifying.
Speaker 1:Oh my god, that guy's I could listen to him talk for a long time like I've watched every fucking youtube video.
Speaker 2:I got a michael ellis. No, I'm just kidding, I wouldn't be surprised I have his autographs but uh, no, yeah, like he's like. I remember one time somebody was like you kind of sound like michael ellis. I was like screenshot, screenshot, frame, put it on the wall. I'm fucking leaving the sleep with it. Like it's something that like I don't know, like talking and teaching, yes, you could learn it, but fuck, I feel like some people are just naturally gifted with it yeah, definitely better right like I feel like they're naturally gifted with it and that's tough.
Speaker 2:There's good dog trainers and there's good teachers yes right. A lot of people and I've seen this when I've done my shadow programs a lot of people are good with the dog, but when they're trying to explain, I think the the biggest thing. The biggest issue I've seen with people trying to explain things to clients is they make it too complex. Yes, they're using differential reinforcement and positive punishment and operant condition and I'm like dude, stop it.
Speaker 3:That's too much, that's too much.
Speaker 2:The client's like what the fuck? Like it's too much, and I think that comes from people being excited. They just learned a bunch of new shit and they're excited, right, but like, how often did oscar explain any of that shit to you?
Speaker 2:operant conditioning and all of that not that often exactly and you were still able to train the dog really really fucking well. Right, because oscar may be aware of those concepts and those things, but he knows he doesn't need to tell it like that to celine, yeah, because it's just going to confuse her for my virtual shadow program, instead of like doing all of that right Like I feel like a typical online dog trainer certification is like at least the four. It's a vocab test.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly. And so for me, I'm like I don't. I'm going to assume that you have that foundation. You're going to record yourself explaining this concept as if you're talking to a client.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because that's what you have to be able to do as a dog trainer.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Is not just, like you know, spit out all the terminology, but like, how do you talk to somebody who doesn't do this all the time.
Speaker 2:Can you show me? Yeah, can you show me?
Speaker 1:what marking looks like Like. Give them the cues to be able to do it.
Speaker 2:You know, yes is a terminal release, release. But what does that mean? Can you show me?
Speaker 3:and you're like, yes, yes, yes, going all crazy about it, but again, even, even clients, I feel like, uh, there's a lot more like availability on social media for the information. They have all the tools. They got the e-collar.
Speaker 2:They got the slip lead.
Speaker 3:They quote unquote no markers and then you're like okay, let's show me yeah show me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not not always like that but you just got to simplify it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's actually and that's that's something I've taken from michael is for sure is like learning how to simplify things to where. And now, like now, I do my shadow programs for trainers. So now there's still, there's still an extra layer that I'm simplifying just not as much, yeah, right, but I'm still simplifying it to where it's digestible for trainers, but not too complex where it's confusing them either. And I mean I always say this, you guys dog training isn't rocket science. There's science involved, but it's not fucking rocket science, man. It's really not like. You just need to know where to apply the right things you just have to do it and if you are confused, that means you're not doing it enough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because when you go to train your dog, you're gonna be like, oh, okay, this is what I need to work on you know like, if you're like, I don't know what to do that just tells me like you're not doing anything yeah because you would know if you were doing yeah, you gotta do something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you gotta do something. But that's where the love of it comes right. We don't have to tell celine hey, make sure you train your dogs at home, because you're not a dog trainer, so you need to train. No, she fucking, she just enjoyed doing it. Yeah, right, but I think it's cool how you kind of live with your dogs too, though like you have a lot of fucking dogs out, yeah, like you have a lot of fucking dogs.
Speaker 4:Everyone gets along very well. I think people are always like how do you guys, or how do you have all your dogs get along without any of them getting into it with each? Other and I think a very important thing is I just have a really good structure in my household, like the dogs know where it doesn't get to that point.
Speaker 4:It doesn't, yeah, I don't even allow them to like. If I open the dog park door, they know that I have to wait for their name to be called before, because I'm not trying to get all my dogs rushed yeah, I have like six big, or like three, four big dogs.
Speaker 1:That's very impressive. Not very many people can do that.
Speaker 2:Little old Celine. I'm trying to live a peaceful life.
Speaker 4:We just practice impulse control around our thresholds and their cues every single day.
Speaker 3:She's a dog trader.
Speaker 4:I think it's even people are like how do you keep your couches so clean? And it's like I don't allow my dogs on the couch unless I allow them to jump up. I invite them on and so oh yeah, they respect celine too.
Speaker 2:Man, I was saying, celine raises her voice. It looks like cockroaches when the light gets turned on.
Speaker 3:They're all.
Speaker 4:It's important for me to be able to live with peaceful to live, yeah, live with them, right yeah and because I mean, I'm not trying to, you know, create the dogs and then like I don't like them and I know a lot of sports. Some sport dog people are really into you know like if the dogs aren't created.
Speaker 2:That has come out yeah, take them out and work them, build drive exactly.
Speaker 4:I'm not trying to do that. They're pet dogs too yeah at the end of the day, yeah, and I need to live a normal life?
Speaker 2:yeah, they got, they got to make content, man, you got to get them all to sit at that fucking staircase. I seen that. I seen Katana. She was like fuck it on one stair.
Speaker 4:I literally I had no treat, no toy and I'm like everyone's sitting to command. At this point I was like see, no one's moving, I'm taking photos. No one's moving, I'm taking photos Everyone stay and so, um, yeah, so I think it's important to.
Speaker 2:I just I know my dog's well enough.
Speaker 2:No, but it's a structured thing, it's a training thing. Like the structure is there. Like the dog doesn't care how many followers you have, the dog doesn't care. You're famous, like the dog. Like we get you know rappers and I'm like the dog don't give a fuck who you are. If you're not putting in the work, the dog is not gonna give a shit. Like they do not care that you got to make content like they don't care, uh-huh, and you have to implement that and I think that that's important to do, especially with working dogs. Right, you could. You could have a fulfilled, happy, working dog living in a six by six kennel. It happens, right, people do it. I just don't like that. I want to live my dog. I want my dog to be a pet and a working dog, cause I like doing this shit. I like, like you guys been in my house, like I have a giant fucking couch and it's literally me and my four dogs on the giant fucking couch.
Speaker 4:Yeah, my dogs are out most of the time. Yeah, like I enjoy that.
Speaker 2:I love that, I don't. I work them fucking once or twice a day. What the fuck are we doing for the other 22 hours? Like I need that to be an enjoyable thing and so, like mojo, I was tethering mojo at 10 weeks. You're gonna kill drive. You're doing too much control. Go look at cut to a video to mojo. Tell me how much drive we killing. I'm gonna fucking looking nice right now. Um, I like. I like the way he's looking, but part of it was a lot of the control at a young age making them sit before bite work, making them take food before bite work, tethering them in the house.
Speaker 1:Which is another controversial thing.
Speaker 2:Same thing as the killing drive right.
Speaker 1:We've had this conversation with so many people recently of, like I'm not going to put any control on the dog for the first year.
Speaker 2:Then you have this unhinged monster that you gotta reel in, and then I'm gonna reel him in. Don't do that. We had control on Beretta, real young. We had control on Slim, real young, and you see how we struggle with Slim still.
Speaker 1:Mojo, real young Muffin. We're doing it, muffin. Imagine you just let her tweak out every time. That would be crazy. Good luck reeling that in after.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not the way I like to train and I'm glad we're all on the same page with that. Right, if the dog's got the genetics, I don't need to work on letting the dog be hot and crazy and building that. The dogs are very smart creatures. They could learn. When we're inside, you chill the fuck out when we go outside and I put your harness on now you could get crazy. Yeah, but if I have you sit first, you're gonna sit.
Speaker 2:And I think the biggest issue with that is that people think when they think about, okay, we're putting control on young working dogs, they think we're using a lot of compulsion to get it. And so, to be fair, we are using compulsion, but it's not an aversive compulsion. It's okay, I'm gonna wait until you sit and we're not gonna do anything, right, so, like again, negative punishment well, you're not gonna get your reward until we fucking start, until you sit, until you take this piece of food. So there is compulsive, compulsive aspects. Right, we're making them do it, but we're just fucking literally free shaping it I was just like you're not gonna do the dog to have a brain uh-huh and like they regulate their emotion, and this is something michael else has talked about.
Speaker 2:He was like I think there's a window for your young dog to learn how to regulate their emotions very well, and if you don't teach that at a certain age you know a younger age, it's going to be very hard for them to understand that concept when they're older yeah and now you have to use more pressure and all this shit and they're like oh well, my dog's so hard he fucking bites me because he gets frustrated that I make him like yeah, you end up with a dog like mine.
Speaker 3:My dog doesn't out because he's so hard and like.
Speaker 4:But then a lot of people let it get to that point like I get a lot of dms. I'm not a lot, but some people are always like, oh, my dog growls at me on the couch. I'm like, don't let him on that's crazy, you know like don't let them get to that point maybe.
Speaker 1:And I had somebody yeah, I had somebody message me the other day and they were like I'm sleeping in bed with both my dogs and they get into, like they resource guard the bed, and I was like that's crazy and it was like mastiffs or something.
Speaker 4:Couch privilege revoked. Yeah, oh my gosh. So it's just like little things like that and I kind of nip it when they're really young, so for sure, never get to that again like I'm, I'm on my puppies man, I'm on my puppies.
Speaker 2:You think I could have them doing all the shit that they do together without them having some sort of we could call it respect, so us humans can understand.
Speaker 4:But respect for me and they're just like, okay, like yeah, like when we saw you guys in the backyard with the pool and they know dude. Oh my god, it's almost all biting his nails he's like you're gonna fight I don't even let my dogs do that because I know they can get crazy around the pool. So I'm not gonna even want to deal with that yeah um and it's high drive dogs.
Speaker 2:Like high drive dogs, they redirect like they tweak out right. They're not like normal pets and so I mean it's it takes a lot more to keep them in check. You have a lot of control right and and it happens.
Speaker 2:Real young, I don't wait until mojo's a year to start injury. I don't want to fight that dog at a year. No, you can kick my ass, motherfucker bites hard. I don't want, I don't want that. I want to show him. Hey, dude, I'm gonna apply consequences sometimes when you're doing things you're not supposed to. Real young at three months I have mojo. Wasn't putting teeth on me anymore at three months.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would never get a addled dog again.
Speaker 2:No, no yeah, I think it's so valuable to like, hey, stop putting your teeth on me. And now I don't have to be that hard on him. Maybe I scruff him, flick him in the nose. I'm like, hey, stop that dude. And he's like, oh shit. But ask me how many times I've had to do that since then. Right, hardly ever. It's already there and understood. And now I could have all three of my fucking my bulldog, my fucking bull herder, my other bull herder, my little foster dog I have them all running out going crazy, like you guys see my, my stories.
Speaker 2:I'm at Butterfield all the time. All of them like they go. But as soon as I tell them to stop and cut the shit, all they know and again, you will never get that response without positive punishment. They cut the shit because they know like consequences coming dude and like dealing with intact males as they get older. I see Slim and Zeus kind of eyeballing each other a little bit and I could. I nip that shit in the bud right away. Yeah, if you guys are gonna fight, you're gonna fight me first. Who wants to fight dad? Nobody. Good boys, I don't want to fight you guys either. So fucking cut this. But like there's moments where they're walking by each other and just like, and like I see it, like, if you've, if you've had enough intact males around, you will see those little challenging moments when it's not about training, no, it's the reality of an intact, high drive, dominant male. It is going to fucking happen. And if you let them figure it out themselves, good fucking luck.
Speaker 2:My dogs don't get to fight each other. They don't get to correct each other unless they're young. Right, I'll let Zeus correct all the young dogs. I'll let Slim correct the young, but once they're older, no doubt I'll referee everything. Because once you guys fight, fuck dude, you know bro, once they get into it it is tough. You're always walking on eggshells and you're always like fuck, this might have. And then god forbid you have some bulldogs or some dogs who like fighting, fuck, yeah, right. So like when I see my dogs get like that, oh no, everybody's getting in trouble. I don't care who fucking started it, I want them let's we'll see how many times this gets clipped. I I want them to be more intimidated by getting in trouble with me than each other yeah like.
Speaker 2:I want that to override their desire to fight each other that's like the rule of a multi-dog household and you know this too, because you used to do that crazy, fucking 30 dog shit that yeah, that fucking, but she always had control bro and that's crazy, because you know like if one dog gets rowdy it's fucking sets them all off but that's why you got to be like doggy lifeguard and you're like you know, all right, now we're running.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're done running like you don't walk that by that dog anymore, or even like you're done, you go back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just running, huh, just like a dog, sprinting, zooming, getting zoomies.
Speaker 1:No, you, can't, you can't run. I talked about this in my last podcast about like uh, a lot of times we think of behavioral modification as like, oh, the dog knows place and can stay on place and know all of its commands. But behavioral mod is like is your dog gonna make good decisions around other dogs. Like is your dog okay with an off-leash dog coming up to them or are they gonna lose their mind? If your dog is like, not used to that, like I don't think that that's really like a fixed dog.
Speaker 1:You know right so a lot of my training was like having these giant groups of dogs and it's like all right, y'all gotta coexist, coexist together. Here are the rules no zoomies, because then everybody goes into play and then that switches to pray very quickly, Very quickly dude. And then you have a dog who feels like they're going to get eaten by everybody.
Speaker 2:You can see it too the dog's like. I'm just like no, no, no you cannot do that Stay, stay yeah.
Speaker 1:But it's about like managing those dogs and not letting them get into those aroused states when you're working with multiple dogs, you know, and so that's kind of been my experience and that's why, like the sport stuff is so cool to me is because it's so different from what I've always done and control yeah while the dog is tweaking, the fuck also like the same right.
Speaker 3:You're like put the dog up like same thing in the yard. We just just put the troublemaker out?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:Time out. We're like escort them. And we like pick them up and, like, bring them back inside.
Speaker 3:Time out and then all the other dogs see that and they're like oh.
Speaker 2:You're in trouble.
Speaker 2:Yeah, everybody behave. Yeah, no, it's interesting, but you actually train dogs. There's a lot of people who can't speak or they're like, no like, then none show me. Let me see your group of dogs that you've been working like. A lot of people don't train dogs and so they don't always understand these concepts of yeah, I gotta be hard on my dogs in certain moments because I know what it can lead to and I don't want it to lead there, so we gotta stop it now. Right, and anybody with a multi-dog, with a good, healthy multi dog household, could attest to that.
Speaker 1:And you got your baby gates. I have the baby gates all over the house.
Speaker 4:Everything's sectioned off. The dogs don't.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, because you have fucking so many other animals too.
Speaker 4:That's true.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:People just think I have like my reptiles out with my dog.
Speaker 2:It was like this whole thing.
Speaker 4:I think I filmed one video or one tiktok, and it was like my bearded dragon on my shoulder and I was holding draco and that was like a big deal everyone was like oh my god, I can't believe celine leaves, lets her dog out with her reptile and I'm like whoa cut her some slack, guys crazy.
Speaker 2:My dogs are very under control.
Speaker 4:Feed my bearded dragon to draco with me and they just think that like I was well, I remember I was like well, my dogs are well trained enough to know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean yeah, I know it's a very hard concept for some to understand.
Speaker 4:so I don't expect everyone to understand, but it's crazy, it I think people just think everyone's just out and about and doing their own thing, but no, everything's sectioned off. As you can see, there's a gate in front of my kitchen hallway. There's a gate in front of the other living room that I have. There's a gate in my office and there's a gate for upstairs, so everything's gated off unless I allow them in, and the dogs know that they're not allowed to run upstairs because the cats are.
Speaker 4:I don't want them bothering the cats. No-transcript.
Speaker 3:Like I don't let stupid shit happen in my house like it's not it's not gonna happen but like we're filming this in your living room right now and it's super quiet, people would never expect me to know you don't even think she's any dog.
Speaker 1:What do you have out right now?
Speaker 4:just wolf and papa. They're sleeping. Isn't beretta out?
Speaker 1:she is out behind the gate.
Speaker 2:She's behind the gate, yeah, because, like, even she's good like I could never just leave minka in my living room this couch would just be like shredded yeah, and just bread is behind the little ass baby gate that she jumps all the time if I told her jump over, she'll jump over but if I tell her like no, like we're going back and you're staying there she'll stay like she's not.
Speaker 3:Context people context the dogs are smart very smart and they, they know she's so delicate in her jump too, she jumped over the baby like a little that's why she's so good at she's like a cat, there's like two steps.
Speaker 2:I just can't even hear her land no she doesn't it's.
Speaker 4:It's stealthy. She's very stealthy, but I think we have a good, managed household yeah, it's only if someone's at the door.
Speaker 2:Obviously the dogs are gonna go off but um, did beretta meet your expectations right, because everybody like, once you get your full, your first malinois, you're like okay, like so, like I had stupid high expectations right. So like, how are you with that?
Speaker 4:well, I remember bringing beretta to club with oscar and he's like why the fuck did you? He's like, really, why oscar's a tough critic man? Yeah, he was like oscar's a tough critic. He's honest, though he will not lie to you.
Speaker 2:He will not. You should have waited for guapo son no, yeah, you should have waited.
Speaker 4:I was looking for I was looking for one for you, like why did you get? And so, um, I was, honestly, I I liked the way she looked and I and multiple people recommended her breeder actually that's valid.
Speaker 2:You guys, I don't give a fuck what anybody says. If you like the way a dog looks and you're going through a good breeder and you're crossing your teeth down your eyes, that's fucking okay and I reached out to his clients too, or people that had dogs from him, and everyone. I'm sorry but if I'm buying a dog, I don't want a fucking a dog that I don't like looking at the ugly dogs definitely if it works, it works bro, if it works it works.
Speaker 4:I think it's also really important to reach out to people that have dogs from that and see how they turned out, because breeder will tell you you know, they're gonna just fluff. I mean they're gonna yeah a good breeder.
Speaker 2:You guys will tell you something wrong, though a good breeder will be like okay, this is what we're trying to breed out. I don't think any breeder would say that I know I would if I start saying there ain't no good, come on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you don't think I?
Speaker 2:talk shit on my dogs.
Speaker 4:I will tell you the fucking truth a lot of people are kennel blind too.
Speaker 2:They just yeah, kennel's the best, but oscar is a tough critic with the dog for sure, and so I did watch.
Speaker 4:What didn't he like about beretta?
Speaker 2:she was super growly and chewy. I remember, remember her. She was Exactly like Muffin.
Speaker 4:Exactly like Muffin she was growly and chewy on the bite. Uh-huh, and that's I mean. I didn't know much I did.
Speaker 2:No, but she bites.
Speaker 1:I was like she bites, she bites, she's fine.
Speaker 4:I didn't know that there was that bite mechanic aspect to it, because Draco's completely different mean he's growling.
Speaker 1:Why is that bad?
Speaker 2:um the growling sometimes is insecure and it could be a sign of discomfort where the dog's like biting and the dog's like not super comfortable. There versus dog was just like clamped quiet, gotcha right. So like that little bit of franticness tends to think there are some dogs who are a little bit vocal on the bite but like if she's countering full grip and vocal, not a huge deal, but if she's still vocal, uh, grip in vocal not a huge deal, is she? Still vocal.
Speaker 4:She could be vocal here and there I think she's just excited she could be like you hear her attack.
Speaker 2:She could be a little vocal, but she's gotten much better.
Speaker 4:Yeah, like gotten 10 times better. I'm just glad she's not vocal in the heel or like she doesn't really leak.
Speaker 2:Rub it in my face. Rub it in my face, quiet. Now we fixed that. Yeah, he's not laughing. Until we get like two decoys running around, then you know, or the transport, I'll take what I could get. I'm not mad you can't have the full.
Speaker 4:But um, going back to your question, I didn't really have any. Well, I kind of did have expectations and, yeah, she definitely. I thought she was going to be more crazy oh really, yes, I thought she was going to be a lot. Well, yeah, she really. Yes, I thought she was going to be a lot. Well, yeah, she's twitchy, so I guess that's a different type of crazy.
Speaker 4:I thought she was going to be at a crazy because everyone was telling me that Malzahar is this crazy prey monster and yeah, she is, but she wasn't to the expectation that I thought she would be, and I don't know if that's because I had Draco before and Katana. Well, katana is really chill, but I think I had really crazy expectations of her just like being totally insane, really hard to train.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Um, but no, she was she's a.
Speaker 3:she's a brave monster, Like she loves to bite a decoy, but she's also very social.
Speaker 2:Like yes we can come in coming. I like I need that, I know, I know for sure I love that. Yeah, you gotta have a social I mean you don't have to, but it's a much easier lifestyle to have a social dog, like it would be really that, yeah, that, that dream of having that hard-ass protection dog is I mean some people, some people want that.
Speaker 3:No, it's never been my desire. It's really nice like we literally can work beretta and then have her chill, like, yeah, I'll have her face in my face and I don't even trust talk like that you know?
Speaker 4:yeah, I like that. I got really.
Speaker 2:I don't know if that was a genetics thing or a retraining thing, or maybe a combination we could have made her a mean fucking dog yeah right for sure you can yeah, especially how like she's not nervy but because she has a little bit of nerve for sure, worked more in defense for sure we could main her being but again what fun is that?
Speaker 3:I know I want to be able to bring I want to take her.
Speaker 4:I want to take her places I don't have to worry about people touching her. Yeah, we have our wolf snacks events and there's so many people that come out yeah, and she also like enjoys it too.
Speaker 1:I mean, she doesn't just tolerate it, she also like enjoys it too.
Speaker 2:I mean, she doesn't just tolerate it, she's like like asking for it. Yeah, touch me.
Speaker 4:Exactly, she's very, very old, slim, social too.
Speaker 2:Uh huh, same thing and like but it's because of that, like, hey, go say hi, we just did bite work. Go say hi to everybody. I'm like really protect you, they'll really protect you.
Speaker 3:Obviously you have to train it a little bit, but like slim will do that, I don't need to keep showing him that like hey, these are bad guys.
Speaker 2:That's a bad person. You don't need to show. No, I don't, he's fine, he's fine. I think he would have my back for sure. And if nobody thinks so, please come and test it for me so I could see. We'll record it, we'll sign a waiver, we'll do the whole nine. Um, but like I think he will right, and because I think that I don't have to show that too much, no people love to show I want the opposite. I'm like go say hi on social media and stuff.
Speaker 4:No then you can't even take your dog anywhere. It's not fun. I don't want my dog like that. I think before I used to think it was really before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, uh-huh, me too I was the same way and I was like, yeah, I don't want nobody to be able to touch them. Yeah, you get, you get in the world a little bit more.
Speaker 4:Yeah, actually good luck good luck boarding that dog when you're gone yeah, like come on, it just seems more like an inconvenience it is anything, and what's my? Lifestyle. I don't want to have to do, I don't want my dog biting nobody man.
Speaker 2:Nope, I'll learn to fight. I'll do what I gotta do? I don't want every time.
Speaker 3:Not that I've been in sketchy situation much, but like I'm never thinking of taking hawk out in a sketchy I've done it once with zeus bro.
Speaker 2:I've been doing this with my dogs for at least four or five years. The bite work stuff.
Speaker 3:I've used my dog once but see you take zeus out over slim like same thing. Right, I'm like I would take, like walter.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I'm taking zeus the og. Well, nowadays I'm probably taking slim. Okay, but this is what like slim was like 10 months.
Speaker 1:I got you didn't you have like a thing where you took oh my god, did you take slim out?
Speaker 2:dude, I was doing bite work with the client and so slim was like tweaking out on the bite work from the kennel and then, fucking this guy came talking shit. He was going all crazy, um, and then he wanted to like come and fight me and and so I took out Slim and fucking Slim starts barking at the sleeves on the floor and I was like no Pause, pause, pause, let me grab the other guy. Yeah, I haven't shown him much of that stuff.
Speaker 2:And I was like oh you motherfucker. So I put him away and I grabbed Zeus One moment please. And then Zeus was at it, bro, and the dude. The dude ended up going to his car and grabbing a fucking 12 inch buck knife. And then he came back and I was like who's kennel you ain't gonna fucking stab? Yeah, it's just not worth it. No, I don't want my dog to.
Speaker 4:It's a self-defense thing. It's stay away from me. Yeah, I don't want to fight you.
Speaker 2:I don't want my dog to bite you.
Speaker 4:Please stay away from me just have like everyone carries too like it's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we've said have a gun honestly at this point have
Speaker 4:a draco, a beretta there you go.
Speaker 3:These are just dog names, guys.
Speaker 4:I uh I think it's like a breed thing like draco's, a lot more sketchy around.
Speaker 2:It's a doberman thing yeah, and then people want to pet him the most.
Speaker 4:Huh, exactly, and stuff like that and everyone loves draco, but I don't want to.
Speaker 1:He doesn't enjoy being pet by strangers no, he's very, isn't that a weird thing? Is that, like you'll have people wanting to pet the dogs that, like are big and scary you're like my dog's supposed to make you cross the street like why are you?
Speaker 4:yeah, yeah, and so uh but that's cool.
Speaker 3:So once again ties into, like you being a good dog trainer. Yeah, yeah, he's advocating for your dog, yeah he's fine with if people pet him.
Speaker 4:I just know he's uncomfortable, so I'm like yeah, he doesn't love it, he doesn't love it and I'm not gonna force him to do anything he doesn't like no so it's more like let's not yeah, and then they're scared of beretta, huh yeah, and then beretta, because she's so twitchy so it's funny but I know draco's a more definitely a more serious dog than beretta is.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's temperament. Yeah, it's temperament, right, mojo's more serious and slim, and so with mojo we're like, yeah, go go be friends, go say hi, like be really friendly.
Speaker 4:Um, but it's a temperament thing I might just, it might just be like a genetics thing too for sure, dobermans, yeah they're bred for protection and some some don't love it, man so what are your takeaways from this last trial?
Speaker 1:that's a great what advice do you have for the people?
Speaker 4:we not finished yet we're not finished yet it ain't over unfortunately it ain't over, they're just getting started. Yeah, at this point I feel like we've been training for this for so long and I actually didn't realize how long we've been training for the ones for yeah until.
Speaker 3:I was going back on videos half of her life.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I was going back on videos. I'm like damn, we've been doing this for a really, really, really long time, and so I think she's also pretty young, right like she's, she's two yeah, well, she's turning three next, yeah, next month yeah, because she's pretty close to slim's age right on yeah, she'll be three in october and I don't know. I think that's a great question.
Speaker 2:Honestly, yeah, I don't know that's what happens when you come prepared. Guys, guys.
Speaker 4:My brain is mush right now, but I think even training with the right people, like without you guys I wouldn't have been able to probably even get this far. I wouldn't even have thought because I went into the trial just expecting not just the pass, like I wanted to obviously do well and beat some people's scores that I knew but that didn't happen.
Speaker 2:There's always next year it was close. I think if she went to um almost don't win competition bro okay if she didn't get up in the long.
Speaker 4:Clearly some friendly competition, but I think, depending on, well, we I, I feel like we train with some people that you know are very, we got some good dogs around here, man very, very high level and so I think, my um. I guess, like the stand, I don't know the standard's really high yeah so, going in on it, it wasn't just, oh, I'm just gonna pass.
Speaker 4:I mean, that was my expectations. I just wanted to finish both my legs and get it over with and move on to the next level. But I think after this it's like damn, the standards are really, really high and I want to keep the standards high and I want to keep training at that level, and so for me it's more of like I'm not even a trainer, so it was really I don't know, it was really.
Speaker 4:It was a very surreal moment, I feel like, because I wasn't expecting to come home with all this. To be honest, that's awesome, I mean well, speak for yourself speak for yourself.
Speaker 3:Shame goes into the trial.
Speaker 2:Aiming for the top, I expected her to do the same shit again high standard high standard right high standard. I feel like if we're gonna do it, fucking do it. Do it to the best of your ability. I don't like that being just a humble creed let's go out and let's see what happens. I don't think, my, we haven't been training.
Speaker 3:I don't think my dog's that ready.
Speaker 2:Let's see what no, fucking get ready, get your dog right, do the best you could do.
Speaker 4:I went out knowing that I was like I'm gonna do the bat like she's been regardless regardless of what happens. I do want to show my.
Speaker 3:It's a showing people always say like show it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you show your dogs. Don't train your dog on the field.
Speaker 4:Yeah, exactly, they're like show your dog that's a new term, that too that I found, like that I, I guess, realizes oh, are you showing your dogs in the one? Yeah, showing your dog, and so I don't know. I think if you use the word showing, it's more of like you're showing all your hard work that you put on at home and training onto the field that's a good way yeah, that was a very, I guess, eyeopening moment for me. And I was like, damn it, right, I'm going to show up.
Speaker 4:I've been working so hard on for so long and we're going to show out, you know. So it's, it's, it's things like that, and I think, depending on who you train with too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cause when we hold each other there's other clubs who don't care so much about the obedience and the little things. Just go out there, pass, she's fine.
Speaker 4:She did great on that. I'm like no, it's like eating me alive and everyone's like you did great. I'm like no it was horrible.
Speaker 2:Could have done better.
Speaker 4:And that's why, for day two, I was so nervous.
Speaker 2:Um cause were like no no, you could feel your dog. You could feel your dog and I'm like oh, I'm losing you. My man, I could see it His head's bobbing.
Speaker 1:I'm like do.
Speaker 2:I even trial, for day two Do I make?
Speaker 4:but then I mean, you guys were like she did well you should do it anyways, and everyone agreed, I was like, okay, you know, maybe it's just myself doubting myself, you know, as people do, and so that's why I decided to do day two but I really was unsure of how she was going to do on day two, because we rarely trial that or train back to back like that yeah, no, but she's a consistent dog yeah yeah so, and she likes it oh they fucking love it yeah she loves that she's
Speaker 1:like oh my gosh another day, another day of training.
Speaker 2:I get to do it twice twice yeah it's a blast, but I think part of it like I do joke around like with my competitiveness and yes, I'm very competitive, but sometimes like my downfall to that is not stopping and smelling the roses of how far you've come, because I'm always like okay, got psa1, now psa2, we're not finished. Who fucking cares that shit?
Speaker 2:oh, like and so sometimes that's not a good thing, though. Sometimes it's good to be like, hey, you know, be proud of your accomplishments, kind of be in the moment a little bit, and then you can keep going right. So it's kind of that balance that I try to find with myself, of being like fuck, yeah, we're going to win, we're going to do it Like I'm not here to just compete, I'm here to fucking win, and then also be like, well, look how far I've came so far, you know. But that that's what helps me where, like, if I do fail, I'm like man, like I know, I did everything. A day where I was like, yeah, you know what? I don't want to train today, I'm lazy, I'm not going to do shit today.
Speaker 4:Like no, like we're doing something, man, we're doing something every fucking day well, no, I remember we got to the point with barretta where it's like what do we train for today?
Speaker 2:yeah, no shit level two stuff.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we're like we've been training for the same five scenarios for the past. You know, yeah, so when?
Speaker 1:are you guys gonna trial for your twos?
Speaker 4:I think they'd both be ready. I think there's a trial that might be next in april, next year in april. I think they'd both be ready for that there's a lot of trials coming up closer to us, at least this year and I knew that I didn't want to wait that long to trial for the one, so that's why I did want to go yeah I was on the wait list for wyoming too, but they told me I was like number nine and they were.
Speaker 4:They reached out and they're like you're number one now and I'm like, oh shit.
Speaker 2:So like I scrambled I remember the last?
Speaker 4:yeah, we weren't really prepared I wasn't really trial prepping, I was kind of like dicking around yeah, doing whatever you know, we're doing levels two stuff. Yeah, we were doing like other things, but we weren't like honed in on level one stuff. So I remember for the past what three weeks leading up to trial I was locked in yeah, had to be had to be had to be locked in but it's fun.
Speaker 2:But then even that last week no training.
Speaker 3:Like I remember, uh, we met up to train and oh before the trial that was like hilarious because she was there, that was so fun, and anna was transporting the dogs. I'm like, all right, let's go, let's. I'm like wait, where's your dog?
Speaker 4:I was like she's not even here yet. No, but we did meet up that day before trial. I don't even know if that made me feel better.
Speaker 2:I would have made Celine do the routine by herself. Yeah, literally.
Speaker 3:All right fast pace.
Speaker 2:Celine Move that left arm Smile.
Speaker 3:Like a fucking runway. I was like damn it, smile, smile. But um, yeah, that was an experience.
Speaker 2:I think that close to trial there's no point giving too much feedback or advice, bro. If you're not ready by the week before you, you wasn't gonna be ready, can we?
Speaker 4:talk about the drunk lady. Oh my god, yeah, at the airbnb. So we had to.
Speaker 1:We met at somebody's airbnb and it's in wyoming, like it. The background is beautiful, there's like mountains.
Speaker 2:It's like ai and shit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like this huge green field. There's like horses in the back and we show up like two vans deep. You guys had your rental car, like the person who's airbnb was they had a whole bunch of dogs, like the lady comes out who like owns the house, and she was like just, I mean she was doing decoy stuff with she was straight up like testing the dog, we got no e-collar on beretta and she's like clapping because she don't need it.
Speaker 2:She's like doing jumping jacks, like in the back, like she's like what if I do this?
Speaker 1:no way oh my god you can just smell celine's like here's a a ball she was like what about an old, drunk lady?
Speaker 4:and I was like oh well, what was really?
Speaker 3:funny is in the ones um the seated decoy the obedience uh sean was walking all drunk we both get trained we actually
Speaker 1:trained for this, we prepped for this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good decoy and and that's something we didn't really mention too Like the decoy's job is to make you look bad. Yeah, like that is, the decoy's job is to take points from you and make it as hard as possible. So, like I like the decoys that are going to make it hard, because those are the decoys who are going to test my training and that's what the fuck we're there to do.
Speaker 3:That was training.
Speaker 2:So like when decoys are like tough on the dogs and that's fair. Right, you got to be fair, else we're gonna have some big problems. But as long as you're fair, dude, test the fuck out my training. Right, don't take it easy on me. I want to earn this shit. If I'm here, I want to earn this shit. I don't want to. Oh well, shane got an easy decoy. Oh well, shane got an easy sitting. No, make that shit as hard as fucking possible. So I could like really earn that shit.
Speaker 3:But yeah, that's the decoys job there the wyoming trial had like a solid roster of decoys. There were like three like national select oh yeah, there was some.
Speaker 4:It was a stacked. It was. It was a stacked uh list of decoys. Yeah, but it was cool because so many people traveled from other places yeah, well, it must have been.
Speaker 4:We only have what three dogs pass it was difficult, I feel like though I was looking at different scores because I'm on, I'm in like that facebook group, the psa, and um, um, whatever group, unofficial, whatever, and so whenever it's. It's funny because whenever it's like Steve that's judging the board is like wrecked, like it's always. It looks like Wyoming's board, like I think recently was just like southern regionals or something and the board was like same thing like a lot of fails, a lot of yeah, lot of fails. And then I look at like maybe who was your judge?
Speaker 2:Ben.
Speaker 4:And it was a lot better.
Speaker 2:It was a lot of passes. I think it was the dogs, though.
Speaker 4:It has to be, it has to be For sure.
Speaker 3:I had good competition. Okay, no, no, no, no. Even then you did the low dive trial.
Speaker 4:That trial was crazy. That was a stacked lineup.
Speaker 3:The first four Because if you look at the, points.
Speaker 2:The first four people first through fourth all had 90 plus scores. I can't remember if I was second or third in that trial, but even the person behind me was like half a point away. Slim does well in protection. That's where Slim fucking saves my ass.
Speaker 2:It's frustrating because I work on obedience so much like I'm such an obedience fiend slim just does not represent it that much, um, but he kills in protection and he kills in protection, and so that's where, um, I heard someone say they're like well, hey, remember, it's a protection sport, it's not called obedience you still have to pass you still have to pass, but I'm happy with my dog scoring. Better in protection than obedience, yeah, but it's the type of dog I guarantee mojo will score. I mean probably equally, but like he's just a better composed internal dog yeah who would make me look better on the trial field.
Speaker 2:For sure, for sure and slim, so it makes it look like I don't even do much with him, just fucking tweak it man. Oh, the dogs taught me so much.
Speaker 4:Yeah, the harder dogs, bro, I wanted a banger and I fucking got one, bro, your prayers I got one and it is difficult, but that's why you got to get creative well, even, um, well, for the trial, like going back to the trial that is coming up in april, I do want to redo the ps uh, not ps the pdc with draco, if, if, possible, because the first he needs a mock trial yeah we both do well I mean we both do, but at the same time I think, well, the first time it has to do with okay.
Speaker 4:So the first time I tried getting his PDC was a while back, but he, everything was fine, it was perfect. We also trained at that field before.
Speaker 4:So it was a very familiar place, nothing crazy. And I was doing a warmup routine with him and then, as soon as I step onto the trial field, we're doing the healing around the figure eights and I didn't notice this. But then the judge, which was katie, she was like he is limping and I was like really, and so she's like do you want to see, like, stop your routine and check his paw?
Speaker 4:so then I checked his paw and he had the biggest gash on his paw and I obviously didn't want to keep going so then I pulled him and that was a learning experience already, because I was so nervous leading up to that and I think it was. Yeah, I was only going to do Draco's PDC, not Beretta's at the time because she wasn't ready, and so I was bummed.
Speaker 4:I was so sad, and so they're like don't worry, there's another trial coming up in Arizona, you guys should do that one, you guys are ready. And I was like all right, let's do it. So by that time beretta was ready, so we were able to do arizona. But I've never traveled with draco before that far at least, and trialed him.
Speaker 4:Dobermans are just weird too like as an off-breed thing and so it was an unfamiliar field, it was just, it was new. It was an unfamiliar field, it was just, it was new, it was different. And as soon as what happened, I remember someone was like go get your dog. And so I remember I went with Beretta first because I wanted to get my child nerves out and Beretta killed it. She did so well and so it was out.
Speaker 2:I was like I got this.
Speaker 4:We're good, whatever right. And so the whole time Beretta is like healing next to me. She looks great. And then as soon as I bring Draco out I remember I brought him out too early, so by the time I'm shedding all the equipment I remember I gave you the tug, I gave you the e-collar, the steward goes. You have two minutes left. They're still giving critiques.
Speaker 4:And I was like damn, but in my brain two minutes doesn't seem like a long time, it seems very quick. What I should have done is taken him back, put the e-collar on, redo the whole entire honestly, I don't think it would have made a huge difference I feel like it would have, I think, because you're going to take it right back off.
Speaker 3:I mean you kind of came. I think he came out super.
Speaker 4:He came out good, but as soon as the steward started talking he was like what the fuck?
Speaker 1:yeah, what are we doing?
Speaker 4:yeah, what are we doing? And so I did pretty much almost the full routine and he wasn't healing next to me and I just felt like it was wrong. So then I was like this is weird, and I've never seen him like this before. So then I end up pulling, but I remember you're like just do it, just finish it I was like praying she would look at me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was like standing right in front of her and I was like keep going, because he was still with you. He just wasn't giving you the focus but dude you.
Speaker 4:All you had was a right turn, and then that straight away, and you were done the gunshots, the right turn, which the gunshots might have kicked him back into drive, though yeah, that's the gunshots. He might be like, oh, fuck, yeah, like there's something going on. Honestly, everyone's like he would have killed it in protection anyway, so you should have just, you would have passed regardless. But then in my brain I'm like the most this dog, like the most I'm gonna put on him is you know?
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah, I just think, like you see some people, I mean it goes, it goes again to say that, like we train with people, that obviously yeah, the standard you want to look good and the standard and all. But you see some pdcs where the obedience oh bro, it's bad bro.
Speaker 2:I seem bad like they're not even leash walking like you don't even have a loose leash walk with your dog, but in my brain, though.
Speaker 4:It felt like I was failing, and I would have rather pulled, than the judge tell me like, oh, you didn't have enough points to pass, but then I obviously next time listen to uncle shane listen to uncle Shane.
Speaker 3:I might tell you a joke, but I never tell you a lie, keep going.
Speaker 4:The judge literally told me or Katie was like you would have passed.
Speaker 2:Oscar was like I'll fucking take him out there right next week.
Speaker 4:I'll take him out in trial. But yeah, it was a learning experience for sure and that was probably the worst it could have gotten. So that definitely. You know I learned a lot.
Speaker 2:No the worst it could get is your dog gets ran.
Speaker 4:Yes, okay, yeah, that's actually the worst. That's how.
Speaker 2:Zeus got ran at. Oh really, yeah, I did the sideshow right before.
Speaker 3:And it fucking, it fucked with him bro, and then we did the trial.
Speaker 2:and then we did the trial and fucking that big ass I don't remember the dude, he was a big motherfucker he's like and then I was like Stalin and he turned around and did, like a weak ass bite on me. That was also inside of a warehouse no, that well, the sideshow, yeah, oh okay. Yeah, he should have never done that. He should have never done that. Sorry, my boy yeah that's why he gets no more obedience um, but yeah, he got ran. So getting ran is definitely not the way you want to go.
Speaker 4:No, I guess, yeah, that would be worse. Do you have?
Speaker 1:tips for people who are prepping for their first trial um.
Speaker 2:How much time do you get um? Yeah?
Speaker 2:I think, just one last question. Um, I think for the way I train I didn't have. We had a lot of good decoys around us. But the downfall to having a lot of good decoys around you is that they're always fucking busy. Yeah, they're always fucking busy, right. So like I didn't have, like there was a lot of like I was training with oscar was slim and but, but like Oscar was busy and I could only get to club so often I was busy, I had my business and stuff.
Speaker 2:And so I try to do everything I can with toys. Right, I teach the transport on a toy. I teach that out in guard on a toy. I teach the folks like I try to teach so much and break everything down where I don't have a decoy. I mean I told you a bunch of times hey, use your spring pull. Yeah, do out and guards on your spring pull, do transports to your spring pull send. Like this way I can get reps.
Speaker 2:And when I go to club it speeds things up very quickly. Anytime I'm hitting oscar train like fucking, if it'll ever happen again, fucking guy. Um, anytime, me and oscar train, I love it because we get so far so quickly. Yeah, because I like the last time I trained him with mojo, bro, like he put him on the suit, he like we were able to get we're doing out and guard sits, capping and everything. And oscar was like this is what it looks like when you train your dog at home. He's like now, when you bring him out, he's like bro, we fucking we get it cracking right and we're able to progress so quickly because of all the foundational stuff I do at home.
Speaker 2:So, to prepare for trial, do everything in your fucking power that you can without a decoy. All right, I bought my little boxing. I have like two pads in a fucking head and I put the bite suit on the dude and I'm doing neutrality and shit around that thing. Uh, so that's my biggest advice. My second biggest advice would be train with people that you trust is definitely one thing, but like is definitely another thing. Right, like, you guys may be good dog trainers, but if I, if your personality shit, if I can't fucking hang out with you for a few hours, I don't give a fuck. I don't care how good you are, if I can't stomach you, it's not gonna matter, right? So I mean that's not directly related to the trial but it's part of it be a cool person.
Speaker 2:It's part of it, man, just fuck be helpful, be helpful, shut up like it's, it's part of it, um, and when you're around, a good community. When tom was like hey, shane, you're not ready, don't trial. Cool, I'm not like. I need to be able to trust that right. When have I ever said that?
Speaker 2:because when you stay ready, you ain't gotta get ready bro uh, but yeah, like that that's a big thing is having a good group, and I think that's a big downfall. Like I see it a lot in my my online community, where people are like man, I have no psa people around me, I have no decoys around me, and so that's where I'm like do as much as you can with a bite sleeve, with a bite pillow, fucking hang it on a tree. Like, do as much as you can. That way, when you meet up with your decoy, you could start getting shit cracking immediately like really intimidating too, I feel like for a new person to get into bite sports it's tough, yeah, I try to give as much as advice as possible to people that are new to the sport.
Speaker 4:But it's it's.
Speaker 2:It's just difficult some people aren't fortunate enough, like hence us. We kind of create our own fucking little club.
Speaker 4:There's so many people um doing bite work near us and around us. So it's a lot I would say it's a lot easier because we're in an area that is just so concentrated, full of people doing the same sport but, if you live in, like you know, other states, maybe it might be a lot more difficult. Um so, it is really hard for people to get started, and I feel like I do sometimes take that for granted um, yeah, that's having a good community or having a group of people to train with constantly, and it's hard.
Speaker 1:I, I, I can, I feel for, I feel for that, yeah, I, I definitely there's only so much you can do in PSA by yourself and I think like dog training in general is kind of like that, you know like I think that's kind of why we do the things that we do and host.
Speaker 2:You know, try and build community, try and build community your guys is leading us into our seminar but like fuck man, like getting a crash course on this shit. You guys, it's so helpful, so beneficial. I would have paid I didn't have much back in the day, but I would have paid all the last fucking pennies in my bank account to be able to get a crash course from somebody that, like I, really respected their work and I seen what they've been doing. You were we're having a training for trainers seminar and this is, I'm hoping, kind of the start of something new. I I come across a lot of young green trainers I know Meg does too that just get bad information and they're driven kids, they're driven young people and they're like I want to learn this, I want to do this, but they just don't have good information.
Speaker 2:And, like you could, I don't give a fuck how smart you are, how good you are, with the wrong formula you'll never fucking make it happen yeah right, and so our seminar is basically to kind of give you guys a crash course on a lot of the mistakes that we've made and a lot of things that helped us out, so you don't have to then make those mistakes right, like that is the biggest thing that everybody's super like. I didn't have a mentor when I first started. I don't think you had a good mentor when you first started. Like there was shit where I was just trying shit. I was training dogs. I probably shouldn't have been training and I was doing things. That like I was just trying. That's why I started doing it for free, because I was like if I do it wrong, I don't want to get in trouble by you guys, but it's super helpful to be able to converse with people who have done what you're doing and are still doing it. Like we are still actively training, working on our business. It's not like we've been doing it 25 years and I haven't touched a pet dog in 10. Like, no dude. Like just cause you guys see me post a lot of the bite work stuff, all my clients are pet dog clients. That is it Right. Besides my group bite work literally I don't get any privates for bite work. Nobody's doing that, it's all pet dog clients and so we're able to offer you this crash course of some theory and application on how I go about diagnosing our dogs through our sessions, communication, engagement, just basically the basic things that I go over when I first meet a client and a dog. And I think that's super helpful, man, because when I first started I didn't have a formula Like. I was just like, okay, let's take the dog out and let's kind of see what happened. Now I have like a set formula, like I know I'm going to do this when I first start and then we're going to move on to this and then we're going to move on to that. Right, I'm very good at training. I'm very, very good at training. I'm very good at teaching.
Speaker 2:I was not good at any of the business administrative stuff, though, and that long behold. That will make your job so much fucking easier when you get good at that and I didn't get good at that. Oscar helped me out a bit when I first started, just like just talking to me about putting me on game. He's like, hey, bro, like I've been doing this, but then, once I met meg and she kind of got my community and everything. Oh, it just fucking. It's so much easier now, and that's something that I think is a little um underrated. Right, you don't hear a lot of people, a lot of dog trainers, preaching their business aspects of it. Well, I don't think a lot of us are good at that part. A lot of us dog trainers are very type B people. Right, I'm the, I'm the shove all my papers in my backpack and my death back in the day. If you would have like remember when you had to clean out your desk, holy shit, I was fighting.
Speaker 2:Fuck dude, like it looks so bad, like I would just pull everything out, put it in a trash bag. I'm like, okay, it was all trash, like so bad, and I think being able to learn this side of it. So part of our seminar will be the training and application and then the other part will be meg going over the business administrative side. So I'll let her kind of take over on that yeah.
Speaker 1:So I always kind of tell people like I've literally made every mistake possible in running a dog training business and when you do, you know this workshop or any of the other things that we have, I'm going to make sure that you don't make those same mistakes.
Speaker 2:How do you feel about that? Yeah, pablo, he says you guys better fucking be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we're going to cover like foundations of dog training. I think both Shane and I keep things very, very simple. Um, that's what a lot of people need help with. It's what you're going to be doing a lot of with the clients that you work with, so we're going to cover that and then we're going to cover kind of the entire back end of structuring a dog training business. October 17th through 19th three days all three days it's in U upland california. We've already got quite a few people.
Speaker 2:We've already got I know, yeah, a good amount, so get on it quickly. We have our early bird sale going on right now yes, through september 15th.
Speaker 1:So a spot is 800 and that's going to go up after september 15th. We also have working spots available, so if you want to bring a dog, practice your handling skills, that's going to be for you how many people are you guys taking, or like how many? I'm not sure I think it kind of like, just like the working spots depend, yeah, the dogs.
Speaker 2:It'll probably be six to eight working spots and how many like audit for the audit spots? We're probably looking at somewhere maybe under 30 around there I would say 30 uh-huh around there. Um, it's not like a workshop where it's like I'm going to be working dogs non-stop. No, it's going to be a lot of theory and explanation, right so we may work the dog and then we'll converse about it for 15, 20 minutes and then take another dog out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's why we're being selective about the working spots as well.
Speaker 2:I want it to be correlative to the things that we're teaching. I love teaching this stuff, you guys. I would go fucking all day long if I can, but the human brain cannot absorb that much information. It just can't man Like, it just can't Right. So I want to give you guys as much as I can, but it has to be digestible for you guys, and that carries over into how you need to teach your clients dog training because if you can't fucking make it happen in your head, what do you think your fucking client, who doesn't even give a fuck about dog training?
Speaker 2:they don't even like. They're hardly even like it. Yeah, they're like dude, I'm just here because my dog's If my dog wasn't bad, I wouldn't even fucking be here. Yeah, right. So it all it all goes hand in hand, but I think it's going to be super beneficial.
Speaker 2:Guys, I know there's there's some training schools and stuff out there right now, but I think this one's going to be very personal and very relevant, right, like, very relevant. Like this is what we do. Yeah, you've done the daycare, you've done the dog walking You've done. Like this is what the fuck we do, right? So it's not going to be really geared towards like working dog stuff, like it eventually lead into another advanced course where then we start kind of diving in on like reactivity, aggression and things like that, and then we get some gnarly dogs out there so you guys could see, and then all of this to eventually lead up to, hopefully, some sort of certification. Again, we'll offer a certification of completion for the first one, but in order for meg and I to be like, yeah, we recommend this training.
Speaker 1:We're going to put our stamp of approval on you, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's going to be. It's going to be tough, and I think it should be right. We're always talking about, well, dog training's unregulated, this and that. What are we going to do? What do you guys could write as many letters to the fucking state and government as you want, or we could start doing it ourselves yeah right, it's like it's as simple as that.
Speaker 2:If you, if you like the way meg and I train, if you like the way meg runs her but I mean, y'all don't know this, but meg runs a lot of people's dog training businesses behind the door right, um, but it's going to be super beneficial and hopefully, like I said, the start of something new to where now we could get some solid information out there again. You guys, you guys, the business, there's so many dogs, there's so many dogs.
Speaker 1:There's so many dogs right now, and that's the other thing too is the sense of community that you get from it. Dog training can feel very isolating. So, like to be around other people that are doing the same like journey as you in your dog training career. It's going to be super helpful.
Speaker 2:And again, not only for newer green dog trainers too right, if you've been doing this for some time, I guarantee you there's going to be something from Meg and I that you'll be able to pick up. That's kind of the kiss and death. When you've been doing it for some time and you've been doing it well, you're like well, like I don't really need, like everything's going good. Trust me, don't fall into that fucking trap. Do not do it. There's always something more you can learn. There's always a missing puzzle piece, right? That could just make it easier for you to then hopefully give back to the dogs. And that's kind of like my whole jits with shit is, the more my honey book takes over shit, the more I could train dogs, yeah, and the less I'm replying to emails, the less I'm fucking worrying about all that shit, the more I'm training dogs and actually doing the things.
Speaker 1:And helping dog trainers who help more dogs, and it just fucking keeps going, you guys, I just want, I want a community of is inspirators.
Speaker 2:A word inspirators, that's not a word.
Speaker 3:No, Celine sure I don't think so inspire others inspirators.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's go with that. I want to. I've been sure I don't think so either way.
Speaker 4:Inspire others inspirators inspirators, yeah, inspirators right um, I, I wanted.
Speaker 2:I've been inspired. When I started doing this, right, michael ellis really lit a fire on my ass like I was super inspired. And now my main goal and I do, I say this all the time on my community lives I'm like I want to teach and inspire you guys. So then you guys could go fucking teach and inspire others. And then everybody's just getting fucking inspired and we got some good education out there. We're really helping out dogs. We're not beating behind the bush, right, like I want shit to be black and white. I want you guys to understand this so you guys could then go and teach it and you guys could help out at the dogs and other trainers. Right, we can't sit here and just bitch and moan about the dog community sucking and nobody knows anything. Everybody thinks saying, ok well, what are you doing to fucking fix that? Or you just bitching and making videos about it every fucking day? No, we're going to say Uncle Shane's rant yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm going to. I think part of it is just because I'm emotional about this, because I care.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, meg, you and I could never do any of this and we would be fine. We don't need to do workshops, we don't need to do it we would be totally fine, but that's not good enough for me. I want the community to get better, yeah, right and like. That's why I'm like yeah, let's fucking do this shit right. There's something you and I've been talking about, um, but man, I think it's going to be a blast yeah, I can't wait.
Speaker 1:We've done like 17 podcasts about it like here comes the shadow program.
Speaker 3:Yeah, now it's finally, here it comes here, it comes.
Speaker 2:I can't. We had to get a space for it that's been like the hardest thing, and now we got a space. Now we got a space. Now you guys gotta listen to me, yap, for eight hours uninterrupted yeah, multiple days uninterrupted food will be included.
Speaker 1:Uh-huh, it'll be good.
Speaker 2:It's in a suburban area, so there's a lot of Airbnbs around. The airport is like 15 minutes away from the spot.
Speaker 1:Lots of hotels cute little coffee shops. We love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:All right, guys. Well, thanks so much for joining me again.
Speaker 2:Again, again.
Speaker 1:We made it through um. Thank you, celine, for letting us crash your house once again. Always, yeah, and we'll see you back here next week.