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The Everyday Trainer Podcast
The Everyday Trainer Podcast
Malinois, Bubbles, and the Art of Balanced Training ft. Emma of Raven K9 Dog Training
Every dog trainer's journey begins somewhere, and for Emma from Raven K9 Dog Training, that foundation was built through pack walking. In this conversation, Emma shares how she transitioned from a customer service manager in Australia to a successful dog trainer in the UK, revealing the unexpected lessons that shaped her training philosophy.
What makes Emma's approach so refreshing is her balanced perspective that honors dogs as individuals while maintaining clear expectations. She details how adopting Raven, a Dutch Shepherd with a serious history of dog reactivity, led her to explore e-collar training and develop a nuanced understanding of canine behavior. Rather than adhering to a single methodology, Emma draws from both pet and sport dog experiences to create a comprehensive training toolkit.
One of the most powerful insights Emma offers is her rejection of the "prison phase" common in many training programs. Instead of keeping dogs in a perpetual training state, she advocates for allowing them time to decompress, enjoy walks, and learn to make appropriate decisions around other dogs. This approach has proven particularly effective with reactive dogs who need to learn real-world skills beyond obedience commands.
Emma's method for building motivation is equally thoughtful—starting with minimal expectations and rewarding dogs simply for proximity before gradually shaping into sustained engagement. She explains how she pairs tools like e-collars and prong collars with positive experiences rather than jumping straight to correction, creating dogs that understand boundaries while maintaining enthusiasm for training.
Whether you're struggling with a reactive dog, interested in balanced training methods, or simply curious about different approaches to working with dogs, Emma's journey offers valuable lessons about staying open, having multiple mentors, and remaining humble in your training practice. Follow her on Instagram at Raven K9 Dog Training or check out her podcast "Girls Just Want to Train Dogs" to learn more about her balanced, thoughtful approach to dog training.
Follow Emma on instagram or visit her website.
Visit us on the website here to see what we've got going on and how you can join our pack of good dogs and owners.
Hello, hello, and welcome back to the Everyday Trainer Podcast. My name is Meg, and I am a dog trainer. Today's episode is very special. We have a special guest, Emma. She came from overseas, which is amazing. We're gonna talk all about her journey into dog training, what she's learned from her own dogs, and everything that she's got going on now. You know the drill? Grab yourself a tasty drink and meet us back here. Hello. Hello. Welcome.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my gosh, thank you for coming out here. This is amazing.
SPEAKER_00:It is. I feel like I've known you forever now after that two-hour conversation.
SPEAKER_01:I know we should have the pre-podcast podcast that always goes on before. I love it. Yeah. So tell us, tell us who you are.
SPEAKER_00:I am Emma. I live in the UK. I own Raven K9 Dog Training. Am I close enough to this mic? The closer the better. The closer the better. Okay, thank you. Um I started dog walking. Um, I feel like it was 10 years ago now. My mum actually told me, you should become a dog walker. And I thought there's no business there to be had. And then got into the dog walking and quickly realized, oh, you should probably train these dogs.
SPEAKER_01:No way, we've got the same like story, really origin story. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because I thought, oh, I don't like people, so I'll just start walking these dogs.
SPEAKER_01:Funny story. Yeah. You actually become a people trainer.
SPEAKER_00:Literally. So yeah, I was walking these dogs and I couldn't not do things with them and get my hands on them. And then I very quickly realized, you know, I wanted to train dogs. I didn't even have a dog at the time. I had no dog. And then I ended up, so I built the dog walking. I was doing dog sitting, which was that blew up because people didn't want to leave their dogs in kennels. They actually loved someone coming and moving in. And because I didn't have a dog, that worked really well for everybody. So dog walking, moved into people's houses for I want to say a whole year. I was basically a no like a nomad and lived in other people's houses. How old were you when you did that? 30. Okay. I'm old. How old are you? 39 next month. Okay. Nice. Yeah, I'm an old bird. Um I have Botox, so it's fine. No one knows. They know now. Um so yeah, I was living for a good year and then bought a house. So I bought a house and then I went and shadowed a dog trainer in the UK, and that's where I met Raven. He had Raven like literally living in his van. He'd taken this dog from a kennel, and I'd never seen anything like it. Just, you know, crackhead, Dutchy. I was like, what is this? This is cool. Back up, back up. Yeah. What were you doing before dogs? I lived in Australia and worked as a customer service manager.
SPEAKER_01:How many lives do you have?
SPEAKER_00:Many chapters, too many chapters. Yeah. So I lived, I went out, um, I went out to Australia just on a holiday working visa and then just fell in love with it and ended up staying. I actually worked at a whale watching charter company first, like Humpback Whales, yeah. So I booked the charters for that and then got sponsored by a car dealership and stayed there for four years. Okay. Yeah. So random. Why did your mom suggest dogs? Because I've always loved animals. I wanted to be a killer whale trainer once I saw three. Standards. No way. I love it. Did you Google the like the test to be one? Like you have to retrieve a 20-pound weight from the bottom of the tank. You have to tread water in your clothes for five minutes. Yes. You have to swim from one end to the next, holding your breath. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, obviously I looked into all of that, started training, and then realized it's not easy to move to America. So that's probably a, you know, a pipe dream.
SPEAKER_01:That's like why I moved to Orlando, is because I wanted to work at SeaWorld. I swear to God.
SPEAKER_00:And then you watch Blackfish like I did.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. I was like, I was in college at the time, like studying biology to go and do this. And I remember my freshman year, I applied for like the internship because you have to start off at the internship as a Sea World first, and then you're like, you know, throwing trash away and scooping shit off the floor, that kind of job. And I couldn't, I couldn't get the internship.
SPEAKER_00:And they were like, Well, people from all over the world apply. And I was like, Oh my gosh. I bet they do. Yeah. That was, I mean, I started, it's a bit it's a bit uh creepy now when I think about it, but I would sit and draw killer whales like all day. I love that. Yeah. I've got cuddly toy, killer whales. My mum has in the attic like sketchbooks of killer whales. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It was an obsession. There's like the marine mammal trainer to dog trainer pipeline.
SPEAKER_00:I think so too. Thank you. I said that to Albert and she didn't see it, but I think it's a thing. It definitely is. They're, I think they're very interactive animals from from what I see and from what I've learned. And I think the same is with dogs. Like I loved the relationship that I could see them building with these whales. So it was just a natural next step to do it with a Malmoir.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know what's crazy is I went to SeaWorld and this I was like, still, and excuse the background noise, we have to have the garage door of the facility open because the AC is out and it's like sweltering in here. But, anyways, um, I went to SeaWorld and I was talking to the guy who like trained killer whales, and he was like writing a book on dog training. No way. And I was like, that's so interesting. Like, why dogs like you have this and you are living my dream, right? Like you're the killer whale trainer. Like, why are you so focused on dogs? And he was like, Well, the thing about whales is they care about you because you feed them. Yeah. Right. And like that's really all they want from you. Whereas dogs like love you to love you. Yeah. You know, and I was like, oh shit. And like when I write a book, that's gonna be one of those like turning point moments of like that conversation.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. Meanwhile, I'm like, no, no, it's not transactional. It's they love me. The whales will love me.
SPEAKER_01:Like, trust me, they will love me. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So then you're in Australia doing that. And what you just came to a moment where you're like, I don't know what I'm doing with my life.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I actually walked out of that job. I it was um it I see it all the time, especially people that work in that kind of industry. It's very much if you're a good worker, you're taken advantage of. So they just kept loading more and more and more on. And I think as well, they knew that I was kind of tied to them because my part, like my visa was with this company. And so it got to the point where I actually had the option to do permanent residency, which would have then led to me being an Australian citizen. But it was a 10-month process. Then I would have had to stay with the company for another two years, and I just thought I can't give another three years of my life to this job. It's just not, I'm not built for four walls. I'm not, I'm not built for Monday to Friday, four walls, corporate life. So you walked out, did you have a plan? Yeah, so I had I handed my notice in, but it got pretty bad a couple of weeks before that was I was gonna reach that date. Um, I was leaving, so no one really, you know, the it wasn't terrible treatment, but you know what it gets like. Um so I ended up just handing the keys back over and being like, I'm gone. Like I trained up the girl that was replacing me. You don't need me here anymore. So I left. I went back home. I had a month to get out of the country, and my parents, God bless them, at 30, were like, come and move back home. So I did. And then my mum said, you know, you love animals. Obviously, the killer whale thing is not gonna work out. What about dog walking? And I literally that day printed out some little leaflets and started posting. Oh my god, I posted them through the doors, and I remember getting a text message like, Hey, I got your flyer, being really excited. And it was a man to say, if I want rubbish posted through my door, I'll ask for it. No, I was like, This is my first client, and then I read the message and he was really, he was really annoyed.
SPEAKER_02:Oh no.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, and I think I had two clients um for like three months, and then it very gradually, through word of mouth, started to build up from there. Um, and then it snowballed quite quickly, and I think that was because of the power of social media. Okay. So the dog trainers in my area were a bit older, and so they weren't as social media savvy, and also I feel like even a decade ago, less people were online with their dogs, their dog walking businesses, dog training. Yeah. So I was like, Well, I love posting pictures. I'm gonna post pictures of the dogs, and what I did was these group walks, and I would teach them how to sit or lay down, and then I would have them lay down on people love that shit. Love that shit on benches, park benches, and I would do size order, like low to high, high, back down to little colour coordinated. And it just it got busy from there, I think. So you were like a pack walker. Yeah, I built to a pack walker, yes.
SPEAKER_01:I love that. Don't you think that is very foundational to like dog training?
SPEAKER_00:100%. Knowing how to read the dogs, how to put the right packs together, knowing how to structure the walk depending on the dogs that you've got, all of that. And I think that was when I realized I'm actually training these dogs and I'm enjoying it. I think I want to take it further. But I I always say, I think one day when I slow down, well, famous words, but when I slow down a little bit, I'll go back to pack walking. But just one a day and we'll go on some adventure somewhere.
SPEAKER_01:I thought about doing that because there's like trails that are like 10 minutes down the road, and I was like, I should just do peg hikes. It's so nice though, isn't it? It's so enjoyable.
SPEAKER_00:It's like low pressure. And when the dogs know your dogs as well, Raven used to come out on them with me. Raven actually came to me as a dog that had a pretty serious history of fighting with other dogs. That's why she was re well, she was left tied to a lamppost by the owner. They actually tracked me down when they saw that I had her and she was fighting with their female Labrador, and then on walks, she would, in their words, find small dogs and treat them like chew toys. So she would just run at other dogs. Yeah, she was she was a naughty girl.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So I was able to teach her how to be around other dogs because of all these walks that I was doing. That's amazing.
SPEAKER_01:And she's like kind of was she your first personal dog?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I took her on as a three and a half year old. I was told she was 16 months. No way, yeah. Bought her, she was three and a half. Yeah. I got duped really bad. Oh my gosh. My first experience in the dog world. Um, yeah, she's almost 10 now, but she, yeah, she's wonderful. She's the queen bee. She does whatever she wants. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So Zoe. That yeah, I was gonna say, that's how Zoe is. She's like the one who's always left out. She just earlier she was like walking around the parking lot and she like can't hear me anymore. So I'm like, Zoe. And she's just like leaving, and the guy comes over, he's like, uh, your dog is out. I'm like, I know, I'm getting her, I'm getting her. She'll come, she's like a like a what's it, pigeon? Yeah, homie beacon.
SPEAKER_00:She'll come back eventually. Don't worry about her.
SPEAKER_01:Or she'll like wander over into the garage next door and they're like, There's a dog in this workshop. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Yeah. But she can do whatever she wants. Okay, so that was your first personal dog. What what did you do with her? Like, how did you get her to where she is today?
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so I did a lot of stuff. I I didn't know what I know now. So it was very much building food motivation and then doing stuff with her around dogs at a distance, like very far away, because she would just lock on and the intent there was not good. And I was super inexperienced. Like she was definitely too much dog for me. Um, so a lot of that, and then eventually just bridging the gap over time. And then it got to the point where I started to learn how to build obedience, I could build a recall and a loose lead walk and sit and downs, so just you know, your standard counterconditioning, do it, and I didn't really know what I was doing. I was doing it without knowing what the terminology was. And then she was the dog that got me into learning how to use tools because it got to the point where I built my recall, but I could see that if there were dogs in the distance, there was the potential there for her to just piss off and for something bad to happen. So I learned how to use an e-collar, so I had the ability to be able to recall her off. And like I said, she had such a high history of fighting with other dogs, and she likes it, she likes the conflict. And again, I didn't know why she liked it at the time, I didn't know how to explain it, but I just I was saying to my parents, I I worry about her, I feel like it would be bad news if she got to the other dog. So yeah, she taught me a lot. Um, I would say that she taught me a lot in terms of pet behaviours. I never did anything fancy with her because she moves like she's got legs on stilts. So I tried the focus heel, but she can't, she can't prance. So I I just shelved that.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Yeah. Relatable. That's my that's my first melanin for sure. Yeah. Um, okay, how did you learn e-collar with her?
SPEAKER_00:I actually read stuff online. Okay. Yeah. Do you remember who? I think it was Larry Crone. I think it was Larry Crone. He has the best e-collar book. I'm sure it was him. And yeah, it was because I think I remember him saying, you can do this before, you can do this after. I'm sure it was him. Yeah, and I was just watching videos because at the time there wasn't there's not the knowledge out there on online platforms that there is now. So I'm pretty sure it was him. Um, and just started applying it with her. And it was again, like I say, a game change. I remember the first time she took off after a dog. It was a Spaniel I was walking called Fudge, and Fudge started hunting for something, kicked her in to drive. She started running off after him, and I recalled and she blew me off. And I remember using it then in that context, and she came back around and thinking, Oh, I've made it. I am a dog training now. Literally. It's like, wow, this actually works. So yeah, that was definitely a turning point for me because funnily enough, the guy that does Ruse's hydro swims, I met him years ago when I used to take a client's dog there, client shepherd for the hydro swims. And I remember talking to him saying, you know, I'm an up and coming, like someone in the in the dog training where I'm really new, but I'm trying to do my best to learn anything. And I would never use a shot collar or a prong collar whenever I see people use them, and then fast forward to now. And yeah, he does ruse his swims, and yeah, here I am.
SPEAKER_01:So you were like anti-Tools and oh yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Because everything, like I said, there wasn't that much information out there, and everything I was seeing was bad, apart from the Larry Crone stuff. But as someone that was new, there was no chance I was going to start talking to people about and potential clients about doing it because I wasn't even it's not that I wasn't sure myself, but I trained one dog with it. Yeah. So to be talking about it openly, I didn't feel like I had the right to. Um, I'm just very lucky that at the time I had another client that actually had a working line golden retriever, and she saw me using it with Raven, and her retriever would take off when she saw water, and she would just it was bad. She would swim out like really far. And so she said, Look, I know I was helping her with the basic stuff, like basic obedience, and she said, Would you help me with the e-collar? And so she was the next dog I did it with, and we did a good job, and then it was kind of from there I saw, oh, this is a really good tool. And so I started to use tools with more and more dogs, but again, was still kind of not keeping it to myself, but not I would never have posted a reel about it like I do now, for example. Yeah, so yeah, it was again very, very gradual. And I think I just through my own dogs and showing how I was using it, I think that gave me the confidence to start doing it with other people.
SPEAKER_01:And I think a lot of people can relate to the struggle of like, my dog is really good, they know all of the things, but in a moment like that, I don't know that I'm gonna be able to recall my dog. So talk with us about that and kind of like what's going on with the dogs. Like, why is your dog blowing off your recall in that moment?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so with um with this retriever, it was Prey Drive chasing one, it was um ducks, like she would see these ducks or she would see wildlife like towards the ocean. And then she'd also get excited because of the water as well. So uh with Raven, uh also Prey Drive, dogs would kick her into Prey Drive, but then when she would get to the dogs, if the dog then screamed or started to wriggle, uh then there was that conflict element of it as well. And I think um some people call it different things, but I'm sure I actually think Shane's spoken about it before predatory drift. Okay, but it becomes a little bit more um serious. So Raven would, yeah, she the way the owners described it to me, her pinning the dogs and then attacking them. I think that's definitely a part of it with Raven. So I have to be very, very mindful. That like switch from prey to like, oh, I'm gonna you now I'm gonna do something bad to you, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And also kind of plays in like competing motivators.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, like at its core, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Like we you know, we I think we understand this as people that do sport, right? Because we understand that the decoy is a competing motivator, so we go into it with our eyes wide open. We're gonna have to plan for this eventually. I think that's something that we don't talk to pet clients um about as much as we should. It's it's why I've got a bit of a thing with, and I'm sorry to anyone that has good puppy classes out there, because I know there are plenty of people that do have them, but I feel like that would be if I ran a puppy class, that would be a core foundation for me. I would say, hey, we're in this um one environment and we're gonna learn X, Y, and Z. But as soon as you go outside, there's gonna be competing motivators, and that could be a leaf blowing or another dog or a person or some food on the floor. So I'm gonna show you how to generalize all of your training. I think that's something that's missing. Uh, and it's definitely a foundation that I teach all of my clients. And like I say, I think that knowledge is power. And if we're just upfront with the owners from the beginning and say, hey, like this is going to happen at some point, no matter how much you do. For most dogs, I see it become an issue in the future at some point. So let's be prepared for it. They're gonna blow you off for something.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's what I struggled with, Lucy. She's the one who got me into dog training, she's a field line golden, yeah, crackhead for water. And when I got her, she was a puppy. I lived in an apartment complex that had a creek behind. Yeah. And so it doesn't matter what food I have, I could have like a chicken wing for her. She's like, I do not care. I want to go swim in that creek. Literally. And she kept blowing me off and running away. And every opportunity she became like obsessed with escaping from me. Yeah. And I remember one day I was like, that's it. I'm buying an e-collar. Like, I didn't even know like what the e-collar was, but I was like just gonna use it as like a correction. So I bought the like$90 Amazon one that like everybody gets with the big orange button, you know? Um price to destruct. I got it. I remember like holding it in my hands, and I'm like, I need to do some research before I slap this on her. Yeah, but it was that like competing motivator. I was like, what the heck? Like, I'm doing all the things. Yeah, I'm rewarding her. I taught her heels, she knows all the stuff. Why is she not listening to me in these moments?
SPEAKER_00:And again, like once you understand, it's so empowering, but at the time you're like, I am doing all the right things. Why is my dog choosing this over X, Y, and Z? Because all the content out there as well, most of it points to if you do this and if you reward everything, your dog will listen. And so you start to think, am I doing something wrong? Is there a hole in my training? You know, what what people don't want to, I think sometimes admit that their dogs don't do things out of love for them. Like you are competing. Yeah, and that takes a whole, you know, that's a whole other thing, isn't it? Admitting to yourself, oh, actually they are an animal, and there's gonna be a point where what I've got in my hands just isn't, it's not enough.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I think like I do my Monday QA, and that's a question that everybody asks is like, my dog knows these things, and then there's something else, and they're not doing it anymore, or my dog loves to sniff, he knows he'll, yeah, but he won't do it. And I'm like, what the missing piece of the puzzle is there's not a consequence for your dog like leaving the behavior and pursuing that. Yeah, but nobody likes to talk about that because it's not fun to talk about correcting dogs and you know, all of that sort of stuff. And I feel like we're in kind of similar camps where I feel like for a lot of people, I'm kind of the entry into balanced dog training, which is using, you know, food and rewards and then also consequences. I feel like you're kind of in the same boat.
SPEAKER_00:For sure. I'm anyone that trains with me calls me a soft balance trainer. And I think that's because I come from a part of the world where we have a trial scene and we have dogs that are considered quite hard dogs. Um, and I like to baby talk my dogs in the in the learning phase, and I like to cheerlead them and build them up and use lots of rewards and break things down and help them. And so I I think that's a nice, like you say, a nice entry point for someone that's maybe on the fence with using tools. Because I'll say, Hey, why don't we do a leash pop to some food? Or why don't we do an e-collar tap to a ball? And they're like, What? You're not gonna just press it and hold it down while the dog scream. Like, no, not today or ever. Yeah. So yeah, like you say, I think that's a nice for anyone that's on the fence, they can see in a nice way um how to positively use a tool like that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and we'll get back to that. But what was your transition like from dog walker to trainer?
SPEAKER_00:So I started doing stuff with puppies and again, like word of mouth. So I did my best to stay in my lane. I didn't take on anything, nothing like reactivity-wise, behaviour mod wise. It was just the basics, like how to get your dog to sit down, walk nicely on a lead, recall, etc. Um, and then I got Ruse during COVID. I think it was the first lock UK lockdown. Yeah, it was. It was the first UK lockdown I got Ruse. He's my first malamoir, and I decided I wanted to do sport with him. So he came along and I was then obsessed with training him. Like it was one, it was my first malanoire, they just go and go, and secondly, it was during COVID. So I had nothing to do but train my dogs. So I was obsessed with training them. It was at that point I was more active on Instagram and searching people out. So I remember seeing the first um, it was Jared Wolf of the Kuma, and I remember seeing him out his dog. He walked in and then he made him heel foos and then just he flipped into a heel and walked away, and then he sent him back for a bite, and I was like, I want to do that, that is what I want to do. So I became obsessed with building the focus heel um and all the fast fun stuff, and then as soon as COVID lifted, I I actually had a week plan to go out and spend time with a trainer, but it got cancelled because of COVID. And then once COVID lifted and we were able to fly, I actually flew out with Ruse and I spent three months in California, which is where I met Caitlin, who's next to me right now, um, and some other trainers, and yeah, I would say that that trip really opened up my eyes to making, I would call it taking the basic pet behavior. So if we outline sit-down, calm, recall, heel place, it just made them more sporty. So I'd always taught sit-down, calm, etc., but I'd never gone to the extent that I was seeing these dogs here being trained to. So really proofing it, really testing the dogs, really just making that behaviour even stronger. And then I also learned more about using lead pressure and e-collar pressure, and then I just took that information, kind of made it my own when I came back and started applying it more. So, yeah, pet behaviours, but a little bit more sporty, I would say, if that even makes sense.
SPEAKER_01:And did you just start off doing lessons or were you like, I'm gonna take a board and train?
SPEAKER_00:So I started with lessons and then I actually had other trainers reach out and say, Can I come and shadow you? So I actually started to dip my toes into having other people come and watch. I didn't have a mentorship program back then, but I let them come and spend time with me, and we would train their dogs, we would train my dogs, and then I moved into the board and trains. Yes, because then I felt more competent doing them. Um because typically the board and trains we're getting. I I definitely do get more board and trains now where people want to send me dogs that are younger so I can put the nice obedience on. They're the proactive clients, but they're few and far between, so it's mostly dogs that have, you know, behavioural issues, and so I just I didn't feel ready prior to that to take those kinds of dogs on. But when I got back, uh it was a couple of months later, and I started to yeah, move more into board and trains, and I actually stopped the dog walking after that because you can't do it all by this point. I had Ruse, Raven, I had the dog walking and the residentials, and I had people shadowing me. I couldn't do it all. So then I that's a lot, yeah. It was too much. How did you do all of that? Just burnt out, just thinking back now. It's it's the kind of thing where until you're out of it, you don't realise how bad it was. But thankfully, obviously, I could take Ruse and Raven in the day. I wasn't at a um PSA club back then, I was doing Mondial with Ruse, and the decoy that ran the club was also a trial decoy, which meant he was away a lot. So I was probably doing bike work with Ruse twice a month, so it was easy to find the time for that. The rest of the time the dogs were with me, but I realised if I'm gonna take this training thing seriously, I should probably stop walking dogs. It's a safety belt though, isn't it? You just feel like, or safety net, you feel like if the training doesn't work out, I can do my two-pack walks, it's fine. Yeah, but yeah, I had to let that go. And it actually that business got sold to two friends of mine, actually, and they still have it to this day. They love it. That's amazing. Yeah, they absolutely love it.
SPEAKER_01:So, what have you taken from your pack walking world and carried it into behavior mod?
SPEAKER_00:That's a really good question. And I would say the downtime aspect and actually letting dogs be dogs and walk them. Actually letting them be dogs. So there are a lot of trainers still to this day, and it's something I'm really passionate about that the dogs do not do anything outside of crate, come out, try, and go away. I see it with pet dog training, I see it with sport dog training, and I've never believed in it. And it's something that was my entry to training as well. It's um it's called prison phase. I don't know if it's called prison phase in the world. I've never heard of that. Yeah. So basically, the dog does nothing apart from you open that crate door and they're training with you or they're with you, and then they go away. But there's no, there's no hiking, there's definitely no time to go to a coffee shop like Rod does with me. It's just very much you're in behaviour, you're with me training, you go away. So you almost become you're you're the dog's entire world. It's almost like a desperation, I think, to train. And don't get me wrong, I use crates, I use crates, I use pens, but there are, you know, there are some dogs that come to me that cannot take food. They're stressed because they're away from their owners. They feel like shit because they're away from their owners. So the last thing I'm gonna do is try and shove food in their face. We're gonna go on a walk. And I'm not even gonna bother you. We're just gonna go on a walk on a long line and we're not even gonna talk to each other. Like, let's just exist around one another. Yeah. Um, that's the biggest thing because I've seen like I don't want to go to work every day, I do work every day. We're dog trainers, but I don't want to feel like I have to work every day. And I it's the same with the dogs, so yeah, taking the dogs out on the walks, and also obviously I ran a very tight ship, so there was no annoying each other. It was even the overly social dogs learnt to be more neutral and respectful towards other dogs, and so that's something I do with the dogs that come to me, especially the ones that are dog reactive. Like, you're gonna have to exist around other dogs, and I learnt how to manage packs of dogs when I was walking them, and it's something that I've taken into my training now. Even my sport dogs go on walks, of course they do, they've got to move their bodies.
SPEAKER_01:I think that that is true behavioral mod, right? Like, I think if you're gonna, you know, train a reactive dog to not be reactive and you're not doing group work with that dog, that dog is not trained, that dog is just managed.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. And they're in behavior all the time, and there's something really powerful about the dog learning to make their own decisions. And I I try and post these little tidbits of my story sometime. There was a dog that I had in called Coco Chanel, she's a Malinoire Cross Shepherd and reactive towards people and dogs, and there was a moment on a pack walk where, you know, because there does come a point where I have to stop being the helicopter parent and allow the dog to make a decision. Yep. And she was coming towards me in a straight line, and another dog was going towards her in a straight line, so very, very past, like closing by, and I watched to see what she did. And that for her previously would have been a trigger, and she just came forward and then took a step to the side and then carried on. Like, cool, I can pass you without there being an issue. And previously, that would have been an issue for her. It's cool seeing moments like that, and that happens on these pack walks. It doesn't happen when she's constantly in a heel in a behavior. Like, I need to see is the dog actually starting to make decisions for themselves.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I feel like the trend in dog training, when I first got into it, it was like, oh, I want my dog to be friends with other dogs. I want to intro them on leash. And I was like fighting with my owners to be like, Please do not meet strange dogs on the walk, you know. And now I feel like we've sunk swung in the other direction. And so now people are like, My dog can never meet other dogs. They can never like go to a dog park. They can never do any of these things. And I'm like, okay, it's definitely somewhere in the middle. Like, your dog should know how to interact with oncoming dogs. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And it you shouldn't just rely on putting your dog in a down and like shooing the other dog away. Like, I think your dog should know how to handle a situation like that. And if they don't, we need to get them around some balanced dogs. Yeah. We need to get them in pack walks. And you know, that's something that I used to do all the time. Like in my house in Florida, I would have 30 dogs in my backyard, and I was the only dog trainer who was like doing that. Everybody else is like, you're fucking crazy. And I'm like, they help me. Yeah. Like they help me train these dogs. I would be exhausted if I was the only one training all of them. But teaching them like, get out of this dog space when they start to get stiff, like I grab their leash and I move them away. You know, teaching them like, it's like kids in school.
SPEAKER_00:Literally.
SPEAKER_01:Like how to be friends with each other and like get along, you know.
SPEAKER_00:And I think that, you know, sometimes management can be a dirty word. And I think that it's not in the beginning. Because, like you say, you there are dogs where you're gonna have to step in and advocate because they can't read the room. But you know, in the beginning, it's you you need to be there to help. And how can you be if you never allow the dogs to be around each other or interact? You know, my and again, you have to know the dogs that you have. And whenever I'm training, I the way my brain works is I kind of I I watch the dogs and then I think, right, that needs work. Or you know, take River, Ruse, and Rod, for example, my my three dogs. When River was a puppy, she was very, very annoying and too much. And so Rod is very appropriate with dogs like that. Ruse is not, so she wasn't around Ruse unless she was on a lead. And then she wasn't off lead with him until she was a little bit older, and I have more control, and their relationship as a result is amazing. So I think good management in the beginning, but the goal is always I want my dogs to have freedom, whether it's in the house, whether it's off lead. And I don't, yeah, I really it's my one of my biggest pet peeves, I think the lack of pack walks, the lack of hiking with your dogs. It's one of my favorite things to do. Oh, for sure. And like the dogs love it so much, like it's so fulfilling to them. We're literally asking so much of them, especially the sport dogs, so much of them. That the dogs that come to me for training, I'm working them through stressful situations. They need to be able to have that time to just go and do them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, for sure. No, I I completely agree. I feel like um for me, that was my background. I started off as a dog walker. We did pack hikes, and that was kind of my training world. And then I got into the sport world and I was like, oh, I really suck at this. Like this is a whole different thing because it is so different. But I think as a dog trainer, that that balance is important. So, what is something that you take from your sport training that now you integrate into your pet training and your behavioral mod?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think that learning to use tools in a way um that isn't just punishing the dog has been a really, really big one. So I will use prong collars, slip leads, e-collars. The way I condition those with my sport dogs, I'll do the same with my pet dogs as well. So the things I mentioned earlier, like, you know, a leash pop to some food, for example, I'll do with a pet dog. Um, e-collar tap to a toy, I'll do with a pet dog as well. I also spend a shit ton of time building good play skills with my pet dogs as well. I don't want it to just be food. I don't want it to just be transactional. I want it to be more than that. And it was something that I saw, I mean, I've spent two stints out in the States now, and I have to say that both times when I was at both facilities, play just wasn't a thing. It was very much feeding behaviors. And I remember giving my feedback and saying, Is there not time to play with the dogs? I feel like that would be really beneficial, like the walking and the play side. So yeah, the way I play with my sport dogs, I'll do the same with my pet dogs. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And go back to you conditioning the tools. Why do you do it that way? Like, why do you pair it with a reward?
SPEAKER_00:Um, so some dogs, especially the sensitive ones, like obviously every dog's gonna have a threshold. So I want to try and classically condition as positive an association to these things. Obviously, there's an element of they are trying to avoid pressure, yes, but if I can show them that, hey, this actually equals a reward, I found that to be helpful. So I'll give an example. I was working with a student and she was doing negative reinforcement, so continuous pressure with her recall, and the dog was like, ooey, like I don't really like this. Um, and obviously doing it over recall, like recall in place, it there's an element of movement to it, which normally is enough to kind of get the dog a little bit more open. But even with the restrained recall part of it and her running towards the owner, she was like, This, I just don't like this. This feels uncomfortable. So we then went to the tap to the reward, and that just opened her up. And then we went eventually back to the negative reinforcements of the pressure before, and that was much better for her. I've just seen it work much better with some of these sensitive dogs. Again, obviously, you're gonna reach a threshold with some dogs, they're always gonna be like, This isn't the greatest feeling in the world, because like you say, consequence. But my goal is to always build as much fuck yeah, I want to do this, and then when I add in that you have to do it, I don't want to see this huge decline in the dog. I don't want to see them go, this is fucking awful, and never be able to recover from it. I hope I'm allowed to say the F-word on this.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, you are. Yes, you are. Um, okay, the negative reinforcement. Do you find that people kind of hang out in that too much?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think again, it's it's like anything, isn't it? You can helicopter parent too much. Um, and the dog can almost become reliant on it. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and I think again, every dog is different, and the time it takes to condition is gonna be different, just like the time it takes to build your behaviours and build your motivation is gonna be different as well. But yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01:How would you start your e-collar conditioning with a dog that isn't really motivated by food or play? I would find something.
SPEAKER_00:We actually had a dog come recently, um, bubbles, he liked bloody bubbles. Bubbles, bubbles, yeah, yeah, he liked bubbles, yeah. And he'd actually had a really bad experience with an again, a UK trainer had strung him up on a collar. Yeah. And so um they were trying to build redirects because this dog has some serious touch aversion, and so anytime a dog got stuck, they were kind of at a standstill because they couldn't show him how to make space and pair that with the lead because he saw the lead as conflict. So they said, Can we work to from them stringing him up so much? Yeah, literally. So anytime he was in a situation where he froze and they pulled on that lead, um, obviously, like he he came forwards, like it was a problem. So they said, Can we work to try and recondition? And so we went down the route of the bubbles and also um How did you figure that out? So they told me that he really liked bubbles, and then also I saw when mum or dad would separate from him, like pack drive, he wanted to get back to them. So I said, obviously, I'm not gonna hold him for a restraint recall. Let's have one of you do it. So let's use a little bit of pack drive and yet let's use the bubbles. Um, and then we were just doing some very slight like pop to the bubbles and running back to mum and dad. It was really cute, it was super cute. I love that. And do you know what's really sad is that these owners they work really, really bloody hard, and they'd actually suggested to this other trainer when he didn't want the food or toy that he loves bubbles, and this other person had said, Yeah, but it's not a physical item, so we can't use it as a reward. So they came forwards with a suggestion and we're just kind of fobbed off and we're kind of just fobbed off. And explain the pack drive element of that. Um, well, dogs want to be with their with their mummy and daddy, don't they? Yeah, so just essentially wanting to be with like as you know, a part of a unit and having by having mum and dad separate, they you know, he wanted to work to get back, so yeah, we just sprinkled that in there as well. I love using that as a reinforcer.
SPEAKER_01:I never even thought about that.
SPEAKER_00:He was he's probably one of the hardest dogs I've worked with, like kind of not yeah, I'll go as far as saying stumping me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I guess I in that situation I would just think like affection. I feel like that would be my go-to.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, he's um so so with affection, yeah. I mean he likes them, but yeah, he's like don't touch me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Interesting. Yeah, okay. So get creative, get yeah, get some bubbles, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Get some bubbles, do what the dog needs. Look, there's I feel like we we jump really quickly to finding something the dog likes and then making them do it instead of spending time figuring out you know what the dog really, really enjoys, and then instead of jumping straight from I'm gonna reward you to punishment, like the bit in between as well, you know, like proofing it, generalizing it, helping the dog, etc. etc. Yeah. Whereas I like to take my time, but like you say, there is a sweet spot, don't stay there for too long, because then otherwise you can become reliant on it, the dog can become reliant on it. Um, that is something I do have to keep myself accountable for because I am, I guess I am a soft balance trainer. Um, I will I will correct dogs, don't get me wrong, but yeah, I have to be mindful of not sitting in that for too long.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's just something that I see with a lot of the clients that I work with, especially if they're using the e-collar, they want to hang out in that like first stage, like low-level stem, and they're just nagging their dog at low level all the time. And I'm like, all right, this is not fun. Yeah. Like I know that we don't want to dial up on our e-collar, but I also didn't think that it's fair to stay in this low level and the dog's like, yeah, you know, or something else that I see a lot of is if I get a dog who's already been through a training program and we're conditioning the e-collar. Uh, I used to be very big on like let's layer it on top of place and like recall, right? Like sending the dog away, calling the dog to us. But then I started seeing that it was like tainting our place. Yeah, right. It's like stim place, and the dog's like, I don't want to go, like getting really sticky, like you were talking about with that recall. Yeah. And so then I started doing the classical conditioning of like, okay, tap, pay. Yeah, tap, pay, tap, get it. You know, and then it's like, okay, this we're getting speed with the dogs. And so what I see a lot of from beginner dog trainers and owners that are kind of teaching themselves e-collar is they're hanging out in that low level stim for too long. Yeah. And that almost becomes so aversive to the dog. And I'm like, all right, we need to take a step back. Yeah. What does your dog like? Yeah. They can even answer that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. Right. And it, I always say to people, it comes up at workshops a lot. You should be able to line up in order of like lowest to highest what your dog enjoys. Like you should know this stuff before you even start thinking about training. But again, we kind of just jump to, oh, we'll use food and that's it. We won't go further than that. We won't try and figure out what they enjoy. I like the small details. That's the way I train. I'm slow with things. I'd rather take my time than rush and fix holes later. So for me, I like the simple foundations and breaking things down into tiny, tiny pieces. And I try and get the same from my clients or my mentorship students.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. But I think that's what people need. Yeah. Is like breaking it down and asking themselves like, what does your dog like? People, when you ask them that, they're like, oh my gosh. Yeah. I've never even thought about this before. Because when we think of positive reinforcement, we literally just think of food. Yeah. But for a lot of dogs, food is aversive. Yeah. Food is a punishment. Yeah, you withhold that. I would well, I was trying to like reward Muffin, and this is like a whole other thing, but like we're training yesterday. We're around Shane, who has like a sleeve and she's like losing her mind, right? And I'm trying to give her food and she's like, get the get your hand out of here. You know, and it's like, okay, that is not a reward. Like in dog trainer mind, it's oh, well, I'm giving her a treat. It's a high value treat. It's a reward. Yeah. But it's not. It's not reinforcing in that moment. It's not doing what I want. It's almost the opposite. It's almost pissing her off even more.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I think there's a um, there's almost it's not a vicious cycle, but when you're building motivation with a dog, and let's say it's a little bit unsure in an environment, a little bit sensitive, and you come in with the food and you're almost a part of the problem because you're trying to stick that food in their face and they're like, I'm uncomfortable in this environment right now. And I say to people, you know, if you see that, stop it hang out. Like don't, you know, it's a catch 22 because you want the food to build motivation and your obedience in that environment, but also you want the confidence in the environment so they can take the food and you've got to, you know, you've got to feel it out. And that's the difficult part about dog training is it's feel. Like we can, you know, use all this terminology and explain to people what we're doing and why, but ultimately you are dealing with a living creature that has feelings and you have to feel that dog out and the training in the moment. And that's why I keep coming back for more. Because there are some days I think, do I actually know anything? Because I just made a post about that.
SPEAKER_01:I was like, I literally don't know anything.
SPEAKER_00:No, like I feel so overwhelmed. And like someone will ask me a question, I'll be like, I don't know. Help me.
SPEAKER_01:That's how you know that like you've been doing it a long time as you reach the point where you're like, I know nothing. Literally. Because I that's the thing, is I was I was like, all right, I need to start posting content. Like, I haven't been posting on TikTok or whatever. So I'm like scrolling through TikTok and I see all these dog trainers, and they're like, never do this. And then I swipe and it's like, I would never, and then I swipe and it's like all of these only do this with your dog. If you don't do this, you're wrong. And I was like, I don't feel that way about literally anything. Like I I was like racking my brain for something that I could, you know, post my phone up and be like, do this. But I'm like, I I have nothing. So I was just like, well, turns out, uh I literally don't know anything. I've been doing this for too long, and now nothing is like real anymore.
SPEAKER_00:But the the bottom line is we're never gonna be able to sit a dog down and say, And how did you feel about that? Like, tell me, because they can't. So right? Like that's that's the crux of it. They can never tell us exactly how they're feeling. Yeah, we can go by body language and the dog's response and our understanding of the science, etc., but they're never actually gonna be able to tell us themselves. Um and then just when I think I know something, I start working with another dog. And we're like, nope. Yeah, I quit. I need to do someone else's membership. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:So walk me through how you start those beginning stages of building motivation.
SPEAKER_00:So I'm gonna get my dog. Let's say it's a client's dog. I'm gonna take that dog, and I've already done um extensive work with the client in that I've asked for a questionnaire, I've asked for a day in my life, because that can give me a lot of information. Um, and I've met them. So the first thing I'm gonna do is I take them for a walk away. So I don't have the client give them to me and we go straight into my house. I actually meet away, and then I'll have the client just hand me the dog and I say, like, let's not make a big thing out of it, and I'm gonna go for a walk with that dog. And I'm lucky that I live in places where I can pick fields where I'm not gonna bump into anybody and I can see people coming from a long way away. So I'm gonna let the dog decompress and then I'm just gonna see what they're like. And you know, some dogs are gonna be all over me, like Poppy the Retriever that I had recently, and I'm like, you're gonna take food, no problem. Other dogs are gonna be a little bit standoffish, so that gives me information in terms of how I'm gonna start. Now, this whole prison phase thing, um, and my entry into the dog world, which I have to say at the time, like on paper made sense. The dog can only eat when it eats from you. You think, yeah, that makes sense. I know nothing, but I absolutely believe that it's gospel. But if I have a dog that won't take food from me and is unsure, like that dog's getting fed, they're getting fed in a bowl, so they don't feel like shit on top of already feeling like shit because they're not eating. So if I've got a dog like that, then they're gonna eat out of a bowl and they're gonna just go on walks with me, burn calories, they're gonna learn she leaves me alone, she's pretty cool. And then with the dog that is all over me and I know is, you know, social and confident, I'm gonna go straight into um building my reward events, starting my session, start and finish cues, and then just feeding them for being near me. I don't even look for eye contact. I'm just like, come anywhere near me, I'm gonna chip, I'm gonna explode backwards, or I'm gonna yes, explode backwards. And I start showing them, oh, anytime I'm near her, and that just builds into eye contact and then more sustained eye contact. And eventually I don't want to be the reactive one. I want or the active one, I want the dog to activate me. So I don't want to be standing there with the food in my hand. Because in the beginning, like you said earlier, you've got those competing motivators, right? So the dog's out with me somewhere, quiet environment, but there's things going on around, so the food is right in front of me. So I say ready means nothing to the dog, but as soon as I've said it, I say chip and I move back, and I use that movement to draw the dog in. And very quickly, I move to the food isn't in my hand anymore, it's on me. And the way I make that decision is the dog, I fed the dog, I've got no food left in my hand, and I just relax my my heart my arms down to my side. And if the dog stays with me, I chip and I move back again, and that's the first start of showing them, hey, even though the food's not right in front of your face, you push me and it can come about. And that's my like transition from making them reactive more to the active participant in the session, and I do that everywhere, like they know nothing. I would rather the dog know absolutely nothing, but we go to all these places and I say ready, and they're like, Yeah, let's go. That's how I start it. And it's the same for the dogs that are not sure to begin with, but I allow them more time to decompress and get to know me. We go on walks together, I'm not sticking my hands in their face. I'll have them sit at my feet, you know, in the house. Oh, it might might give them a brush if they're cool with that. It's just let's hang out, and then I'll build to the food stuff. And I might even start with just having them eat it out of a bowl in my in my hand to begin with, and then eventually I'll move to exactly how I described with the really socially confident one. But yeah, the dogs that I train the first two weeks, they know nothing. They know ready, finish, uh, wanna play. They know like great, free, yes, that's it. Nothing because then I it's so I don't want to say easy, it's not easy, but then I know I can go anywhere, and then I've got that buy-in. I can then start to lure things and start to have them go up onto things and build my behaviours, and I'm not competing with the outside world because I've already got that foundation of like a good attitude, a good buy-in. I do it with my pets, I do it with my sport dogs. Again, River knew absolutely nothing. She went on to the club field and I said, Are you ready? She was chasing me around for two minutes and then she went back in the van at the end.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. A question that I got today was do I need to do markers if I'm not an obedience-heavy trainer? Okay. And I was like, Yes. Yeah. Like your markers don't have to be obedient. No. But I think that there's a common misconception that, like, oh, obedience trainers are using marker words only.
SPEAKER_00:No, because if I'm doing like if a dog offers me something, let's say it's let's say it's a reactive dog, and previously that reactive dog would look at another dog and get stuck and then react. When I move into the stage where I'm gonna give you a little bit more time to make the decision, if they peel away, I need a marker word to say, good job. Boom, party.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. And that's but there's a camp of trainers that don't use markers.
SPEAKER_00:What do they do? Just give it to the dog.
SPEAKER_01:Not reward.
SPEAKER_00:No, it's just pressure off. Oh, oh, okay, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:No, I but not even not even corrections. Yeah, it's just like leash pressure off and like pack drive.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, okay. Yeah. I like using rewards.
SPEAKER_01:I like to get paid for things. I think markers are the best thing ever. I learned my markers from watching Michael Ellis videos. Yes. And I remember it's like I've talked about this freaking YouTube video so many times. It's literally the fundamentals of dog training with Michael Ellis. Yeah. And it's like an hour-long video. That is my like gospel, you know, that is my Bible because he makes it so simple. Yeah. And your markers aren't just for sport dogs, it's for marking any bit of behavior that you want to see more of. And the whole point of having like a terminal marker and a duration marker is the dog needs to know what to do after that word. Yeah. Right. Like when you say chip, the dog's like, oh my gosh, I'm going to rush you because you got a reward for me and this is going to be fun. Or we're going to run around and we're going to play, but I'm going to move with you. Yeah. Um, and something that I struggle with with my virtual shadow program students is the marker does not tell the dog where the reward is going to be or what they need to do after. The marker is simply food is coming, which I I think is like half of the equation. But I'm watching the videos of like their homework assignments, and these dogs are confused. Yeah. Of do I like what do you what do you need me to do? Sometimes I'm paid in position, sometimes I'm paid out of position. And the trainers are like, well, I don't want to do marker words. I don't want to have like a terminal yes marker. But I'm like, it's so powerful in counter conditioning, in reinforcing a recall, in engagement with your dog. Like it's huge. So you're loading that up with any bit of, you're kind of like free shaping a bit of engagement with you. Not necessarily eye contact, but like you move towards me, give me something, I'm gonna mark that, shuffle backwards, pay, pay, pay.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and eventually that turns into eye contact. It's just that for you know, I would say 50% of the dogs that come to me are so busy and have never looked their owner in the eye. So to try and wait and capture them looking me in the eye, it's just you would be standing there forever. Literally. So I'm like, cool, well, just stand in front of me. And but they're not stupid very quickly, you know, they're then staring at you, and then you can start to build a little bit more. And but yeah, I start with the dog just near me, and it's a very quick turnaround to it's just a nice bridge into eye contact. Um, and just to comment on your your your thing about the marker words, I find the same as well with clients. They really struggle with the good and the yes. It's probably one of the biggest um hurdles I have to get over with them because um explaining to them like to feed good in position when they've just spent all this time doing yes and having the dog explode out, is it's they find it really, really tricky.
SPEAKER_01:It's so difficult. Also, the marking and then moving.
SPEAKER_00:I know, not the overshadowing, because we don't do this like when we speak, do we? We don't point at the same well, we we point at the same time when we give directions, we don't give directions and then a second later point. Yeah, so it's very unnatural for humans to do. Um but I agree, I think they're so important. And I you know, I know plenty of trainers that don't have a good marker, they just have the one terminal. But again, especially for my reactive dogs, depending on the situation, if I've got a dog that's let's say they're healing past another dog, I want to be able to give that feedback like good job, keep doing what you're doing as this other dog walks by. And then I want to be able to, if they look at the dog and look away, yes, and have them explode out and have this party. I really like the power, and I think that the contrast between stillness and movement is also really, really fun for the dog. Now we're still now we're breaking out. Yeah. I really like that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I think it's good for the owners to practice as well. Yeah. The drill that I have everybody do is I'll put the place cod on the floor and I'm like, all right, send your dog to place, you're gonna mark with yes. Yeah. And then I get their timing with yes. I'm like, all right, send your dog to place, you're gonna mark with good. You know, they're like stuttering over like, do I reward their or do I reward them on me? Like it's good practice for the dogs and owners to kind of get like a cohesive language. Yeah. I think that's where most people struggle, is they don't have a cohesive language with their dog. They don't know what behaviors they should be marking, or you know, what even is a marker word and how to be consistent in all of that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So I feel like our job as dog trainers is kind of like doggy translator.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:You know, I'm gonna teach your dog this language. Yeah. And then when they go home, I'm gonna teach you the language. And now you guys have a way to talk to each other.
SPEAKER_00:And also we have a duty of care. If we're gonna be putting leads and prong collars and e-collar emotes into our clients' hands, you know, if they can't master a good and a yes, then again, for me, what right do I have saying use this lead or use this e-collar? That's that's kind of where I sit on it. Same with I don't feel I have any right to, well, not any right, but I'm not gonna start teaching you obedience behaviors if you don't even have buy-in in the first place. You don't want to be here with me training, and I'm like, let's do a focus heel. You don't want to be here with me. I'm not gonna get the emotion, the expression that I want. The dog's got to really, really want to be training with me first before I start teaching them something. Yeah. Which is why for me, two-week board and trains, just no. Like, what can you teach in the two weeks? I mean, maybe if you've got a puppy and you're building some marker words, sure. But behavioral mod, no. Like, I can't. Oh, definitely not. Unless I'm like on the e-collar, but it's just not how I train.
SPEAKER_01:No, me neither. And I think like if you are gonna do a shorter board and train, it just has to be like, I'm gonna teach your dog to walk with me.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, you know, pay me to walk your dog. You're gonna have no obedience.
SPEAKER_01:No, and I am like a notorious obedience hater. Like, that was a big jump for me getting into sports, is I'm like, oh God, I have to teach obedience. Like it's literally just obedience. Yeah. Because like that was my favorite part of the training is getting the dog to like you. Like getting an anxious dog to be like, all right, you're pretty cool. I'll walk with you, you know? Like that was my kind of bread and butter like dog that I would get and work through. And I would get fearful dogs, anxious dogs. So we would very rarely even get into the stage of like, I'm using yes to teach obedience. You know, like we just weren't there yet. I just had a dog that was, you know, struggling with reactivity or struggling with even aggression. How do I get this dog to be stable and neutral and just want to hang out with me? Yeah, yeah. And that's where pack drive comes into play too. So I'm glad that you mentioned that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think it's a little bit underspoken. I think it I think there's a uh heavy lean on obedience only and nothing else. Yeah. But also, yay for me, because that's where I come in. So send me your dogs. That's why I'm always showing my dogs out on walks. I get taken the piss out of because I take Rod into the coffee shop, but he he genuinely likes coming in after a walk and hanging out and having a little lay down and people coming over and giving him a fuss. So why not? He likes it, he loves it. I love that. He lives for it, yeah. Ruse on the other hand, no, I would have anxiety. But yeah, Rod absolutely loves it, so why not?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So what do you have going on now? How can people work with you? So I have a monthly membership, so community where I have um a list of uh my list of videos, ongoing content, let's say. So I I put new videos in there all the time, and I the way I kind of put it is that it's behind the scenes raw content. So yes, there are videos in there that say, hey, this is how I would build a law, or this is how I charge my marker words, but there's also videos of me training my own dogs, raw behind-the-scenes sessions, and same with clients' dogs, so you can see how I might work with a reactive dog, for example, how I can like condition tools. I do a mentorship, which you're gonna be helping me with in the future. Yes, after picking your brains earlier. Uh yeah, I do a six-week mentorship as well, which is online with an in-person day, and then I do people still come to me now if they're in-person mentorship, which is really nice. So they'll bring a dog, come and train with me, and then I do um one-to-ones, and then I'm just about to wrap up doing the board and trains because like we were chatting earlier. I really and I feel very, very lucky. I'm in a position now where the other stuff is doing well, and I can put that time into my dogs because ultimately the people I want to work with are the people that want to involve their dogs in as much of their life as possible, and so I like to do the same with my dogs. I like to take them places, I like to travel with them. Um, and then I've got PSA um training as well that I'm doing with my young female, River. So tell us about that. Um, so she is a bull herder, my first bull herder, said I'd never have one, but I I do really like her. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Toma wants to get a bull herder. I'm like, oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_00:I feel like I feel like I can only speak for myself. I really like her. Yeah. Uh, but I am a malinois girl through and through. I am. It's just that I think two is enough. Two Malinois is enough. So yeah, I went for the female bull herder. Um, she's 15 months old and we're we're just building right now. Like I said, I take things slow, so I'm in no rush. I imagine maybe next year we'll go for the PDC. She's only 15, 16 months, I think I said. Um, and being a female as well is new for me because I had Raven when she was older and she got spayed. So the seasons are different for me. She gets really flat. She just had her first once, that was interesting for me. As someone that loves dogs that are pushing her and really motivated, I was thinking, shit, she's really flat. She hates me. So I just left her alone when she was in season. We just played and hung out, and then that saw her through. She came out the other end, no problem. Okay, yeah. She was really tired. Protection sets were good because she control was easier. She was like, semicolon. You're like, Great, neutrality. Smashed it, and she came out the other end. I was like, Oh, okay, she's awake again. So, yeah, plans to compete her probably end of next year, and then Rod's the demo dog and Ruse. I retired due to an injury uh that kept cropping up again and again. So he Is training in the PSA programme, but we have stripped it right back. There's no jumping, there's no call-offs, there's no crazy sends. It's just enjoy yourself and we'll see what happens. But I highly doubt he'll ever compete again unless a miracle really. How far did you get with him? Uh he closed out his ones in Christmas last year. Yeah, so we were in the twos. So it's fun training in the twos. He looks good naked. Yeah, he always has done. So I was I really want to train in the twos and have him healing around naked, but yeah, he's he's happy, he enjoys it, but he is the dog that I can do stuff with him, and he's happy with that, but I would definitely say he's the more sporty one out of the boys. Like Rod is happy just doing whatever. Ruse needs that fix, even if it's just lower impact. So getting those regular bites in, he is a dog that I feel he needs that. He's a little bit antsy if he doesn't get it. Okay. So yeah, I'm kind of in that weird space of giving him that without pushing him too far and breaking him because he does everything at 150 miles an hour. He ripped a nail off just when I freed him out of a down once because he just sprung up and then just ripped a nail off. He's that kind of dog.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my gosh. Yeah. I have the opposite. Minka is like a golden retriever. She was raised by golden retrievers, so she's like a golden retriever in the Malinois body.
SPEAKER_00:That's nice. Well, unless you want to compete. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Like I I could never get like a flashy heel or anything. We were like training doing uh ring obedience. I was like, I can get a contact heel. That's all I can get. But Muffin, I should probably move her out of the sun, but Muffin is um she's just like roasting. She's just roasting in the sun over there.
SPEAKER_00:Just edit this bit out.
SPEAKER_01:Muffin is my my crazy child. Like, I'm gonna learn a lot from her, especially like at our training session yesterday with like in front of Shane. I could not, I could not get her to get a tug.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Like, and we didn't do no bites. Yeah. Just literally standing in front of Shane. I'm like across the field and I'm like, hitting her with the tug. Like, please. He's like laughing.
SPEAKER_00:He's like, You're gonna learn so much from this dog. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm not ready. I learned the hard way with Ruse because I added in control when he was about that was a whole point. I came to America to because I had I had no control. And the Monjo people I was training with were like, You're not doing PSA, you don't need control. And I said, Yes, I do. Because when we're doing defensive handler, he's biting because he's not staying in the contact here. Like, I do need control. And when I came out to America, he was 16 months when I built it, and I swore to myself, never again, because it was hard. So with River, yeah, I went in there like with a plan of action. So it was take a little piece of food as like a nine-week old and then you go on to the club field and have a bite. Take a little ball and then go on to the club field and bite. And even doing those progressions, even so, the first time I asked her to play after a bite, so she always she played no problem before a bite. The first session I said, play after a bite. She was spinning around, like she was gonna bite me. I had to like pull her away further. I just turned around to Tyler and was like, I'm just gonna take my time out of the heel, come for me a second, I'll be back. Literally, literally. And but she's um she's a nice dog, she's a smart learner. Like, I'll show her something in one session. Today we're gonna do a basic position in a heel for a bite, and I get a little bit of get out of my way, like the first session, and then the second one, she's she gets it. So she's a cool dog.
SPEAKER_01:Why'd you decide on female?
SPEAKER_00:Because the two intact males already. I didn't want a third. Um, yeah, and I I like the dynamics. Raven doesn't live with me because she has really bad legs, like arthritis, and I do a lot of travelling, and it's not fair for her to sit on a van while you know the others go to club. Uh, so she lives with a friend, and whenever she c because she comes over for sleepovers, like she still comes back to me. And when she does, I love the dynamics that she has with the boys, and I just love the three of them together. So it makes sense to have a female and the boys are obsessed with her, and vice versa. Yeah, I love it. I don't like the seasons, but I do like the dynamics between the three of them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I have all female dogs. Toma has his two males that do not get along. Something that's really important for me is like I like all my dogs getting along. Yeah. Yeah. Which is tough, especially if you have like malanois or other working breeds. For sure, yeah. But I think that's why I'll balance it out with some floppies.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, some what? Some floppies.
SPEAKER_01:Floppy ears.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, floppy ears. Yeah. Actually, they're labradors, actually. I didn't even realise I was doing that. Yeah. Yeah. Ruse and I'm very, very lucky. They, you know, true transparency, they have gotten into it once before, and that was when I knew Ruse was injured again because he just flew at Rod. Um, and I was so there's nothing more humbling than two in-tap males. I was, yeah, it was scary. Uh luckily, no damage was done. He literally just grabbed him by the scruff and bless Rod, saw me trying to get Ruse off, and he just stood there. He was like, Yeah, literally. Um, and then I just had to put them into two downs and just compose myself for 10 minutes and then heal them back to the house and then pull myself together. But yeah, touch wood that you know, they've been far, they were back out around each other the very next day on walks. I've you know, they've grown up around each other, but it was not long after that I took him in for the CT scan, and that's when they said, There's um they're minor, but there's lots of issues. There's da da da da da da da. So that's when I decided, yeah, I can and I can see he's um I you can see he's stiff when he moves, and I'd already noticed he was a bit stiff, so yeah, that's when I knew he's not he's not comfortable, he's in pain. So yeah, I know. But I mean he still gets to do fun things. He still gets to do fun things, yeah. And um he um he's not on anything yet apart from like a good supplement, but eventually he'll have to go on those injections for what what is it? The it's not steroids, it's um is it the blood blood plasma? You can have like for arthritis where they do like a I'm probably butchering this. There's something they can have. Okay, and that's why I'm doing a lot of the touch aversion stuff, because I want to be because they have to go in regularly, so I want to be able to take him in, he has that, we leave. I don't want it to be a thing that every time he goes in, but there's a fight. So that's why I'm what I'm building up to now. Nice, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:If there is one like little training nugget piece of advice that you could give to the world, what would that be?
SPEAKER_00:Can I give two? Yeah. Okay. One would be stay open. So the way I've trained has changed, and it will probably continue to change with each year and with each new dog that I work with and each each new person. So if I wasn't open to change, I would still be only using rewards. I would still be doing Mondio instead of PSA, I would only have a Malinoir instead of a bull herder, and with each change that I've made, it's brought positive experiences. So I think staying open. Um the second would be don't have just one mentor, which might be a little bit controversial. But again, I think it's good to spend time with different people. And even to this day, I go out and go to different workshops because there might be some things I'm already doing, but there might be something new, and there might be something I look at and say, I don't want to do that, and that's still good information as well. So stay open, have more than one mentor, and you know what? Be humble, the third one, be humble as well. Like very important we don't know everything, and you know, try not to try not to think that you do. Don't let ego get in the way. I think that's a big one in the dog, the dog world. Yeah. And sometimes let our egos get in the way. Stay humble, be nice and kind to people. What was like seven?
SPEAKER_01:You have you have like a bit of control over these, like let's be real predators, you know. So I think with that comes comes a bit of ego. For sure.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Good pieces of advice. Tell us where we can find you. Raven canine dog training in the UK. Is that what you meant? Yeah. On Instagram? On Instagram, yeah, predominantly Instagram. I do use TikTok here and there, but Instagram is, yeah. And you also have a podcast as well. Oh my god, the podcast. The podcast. Yeah, sorry. Uh sorry, Albert. Girls just want to train dogs. It's very new. Um, you can tell I'm not. I pulled up here, and you've got this thing, you've got multiple microphones, you're in charge of your own editing. I'm like, I'm such a newbie. Yeah, girls just want to train dogs, and we wanted to create a space where women could listen to something and go, that's happened to me. And I take comfort from that, or they could get advice because I do think that women in the dog world, we have to work that a little bit harder. I do think that speaking to a lot of women, they've had similar experiences, whether it's been um mistreatment of dogs, or they've been spoken to poorly, or they haven't felt supported. Though they seem to be quite a few of the common themes. So we wanted to create an open space where instead of burying it and pretending like it doesn't happen, it does, and here's what you can do about it. I love that. Yeah. Oh my gosh, I'm gonna go listen. I remember messaging you and being a little bit more than a little bit. You told me to do it. Yeah, it was actually your influence. And I think I said to you, I couldn't do it by myself. So yeah, no, thank you. You definitely influenced me.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my gosh, of course. I'm gonna go listen. I'll put the link in the show notes to follow you and the podcast and all of that. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming and doing this. Thank you. I had such a fun time, and thank you guys so much for listening. We will see you back here next week. Bye.