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The Everyday Trainer Podcast
The Everyday Trainer Podcast
From Frustration To Clarity
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The barking, spinning, and “I’m out” crate dives aren’t your dog being difficult—they’re your dog asking for clarity. We dig into how frustration gets mislabeled as shutdown, and how a few simple changes to structure and language can transform a chaotic session into focused, joyful work. From sport dogs to family companions, this is a practical tour of routines, marker words, and walking rules that actually stick.
We start by building a clean communication system: yes to release and pay movement toward you, good to reinforce duration in position, and no as a calm boundary paired with brief leash pressure. You’ll hear how to condition yes so dogs chase you for multiple rewards, why varying payout matters, and how to use good to create a reliable implied stay. Then we zoom out to session flow—potty first, calm thresholds, a clear “Are you ready?” to open the window, and short working blocks with smart resets. It’s a recipe for lowering stress without dimming drive.
Heeling gets a clarity overhaul, too. We separate with me from a formal heel to prevent mixed messages, explain right- vs left-side criteria, and show how to handle a young or hot dog who “leaks” arousal. You’ll get hand-target progressions, perch-to-floor pivots, and leash-pressure releases marked with yes to fix forging and crooked positions. We also cover real-home setups for door greetings and guests—leash for safety, neutral handler energy, timely pops or taps, and rewards for calm engagement—so your dog can process excitement without blowing up.
Whether you’re wrangling a border collie who’s overflowing with energy or tuning up a pet dog who fakes calm, the playbook is the same: clearer cues, tighter windows, and kinder limits. Listen, take notes, and try the drills. If this helped, subscribe, share with a dog friend, and leave a quick review—what cue will you sharpen first?
Visit us on the website here to see what we've got going on and how you can join our pack of good dogs and owners.
Hello, hello, and welcome back to the Everyday Trainer Podcast. My name is Meg, and I am a dog trainer. Today's episode is a live recording from our community. So if you don't know, I have an online dog training community, and every week we get together and I answer all of your dog training questions. So I chose this episode and it's all the first place offered last week's episode. And we have a really good conversation about what a dog actually is and what that looks like, how we can navigate that in our training, how to condition markovs, and lots of other good stuff. So you know the drill, grab yourself a tasty drink, and we'll be back here.
SPEAKER_03:You had spent a little bit of time talking to Toma about shutdown dogs. And um, I really loved your guys' points of view about it all. I was wondering if I could get your uh advice on how to approach a client who has a shutdown dog without making it seem like it's their fault.
SPEAKER_07:Okay. First, how did you come to that conclusion?
SPEAKER_03:Um, well, it's an agility client. The client is a new client of mine, but the previous trainer had referred him to me with the information that he was already shut down. And so I already had that idea. But then when I saw him, there were certain behaviors like ask the dog to do a tunnel or ask the dog to do a sequence of even just basic obedience. And the dog would just start barking rapidly and then doing a bunch of chaotic spins. It's a border collie, and then just no engagement whatsoever. You could tell that the dog was like fed up.
SPEAKER_07:Okay. And then go go ahead.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, no, no, no. I was just gonna say, and then the dog was also a lot of times voluntary voluntarily giving up. So, like, owner would ask dog for even just a basic sit, and dog would run to crate and then lie down.
SPEAKER_07:What makes you think that shut down?
SPEAKER_03:I'm seeing a dog that I've seen footage of having a lot of drive in the past with a different handler. And now that dog, instead of volunteering behaviors or even having a sense of drive towards wanting to work, is just choosing either decompression behaviors or just not wanting to be involved at all.
SPEAKER_07:Yes. Okay, so to me, that doesn't necessarily sound shut down. That sounds frustrated. Uh-huh. So when dogs are frustrated, it's typically due to a lack of clarity. Um, what kind of training has the dog done in the past?
SPEAKER_03:Uh, the dog was raised in Ireland as a herding dog and did that for the first two years of its life, and now is with a retired man who um wants to give it the enrichment that it needs, but doesn't necessarily have the energy himself. Um, and so they've done, they do like disc a little bit on their own. And uh the handler is an experienced handler to an extent. Like he's had a lot of dogs in the past, he's put them through like basic obedience, things like that. And so I'm guessing this dog has gone through all of that. That's what the owners kind of like presented to me, but I don't know if it was just the owner doing it after the herding experience, or if it was like he actually took him to classes and like worked with a trainer besides me and my boss, things like that.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. Okay. So when I have a dog that let's say I'm in a training session and the dog is very vocal and like spinning and barking, the dog's usually frustrated because they don't know what you're asking of them. And so that's like their response to it. They're like a tea kettle that is like boiling over and they're like, What do you want from me? Especially a border collie, right? They're like so people pleasy. What do you want from me? So, what I what I think of when I think of like a shutdown dog, I think of a dog that has almost kind of given up making any of those decisions, including that barking, you know. Okay. So for example, I I always refer to like the nose loops a lot. I am like I'm hit or miss with like a gentle leader or the uh like figure eight of a slip lead around the dog's nose. It is very aversive and I think it shuts dogs down. Sometimes that is needed, right? If I have a super drivey, hard pulling dog that is stubborn and pushy, I want to shut you down a little bit, you know, because that's the only way we're gonna be able to walk you around the neighborhood, or maybe like some reactive dogs, like, hell yeah, let's use a nose loop. But for a lot of dogs, I think the nose is such a sensitive area that it I don't want to use the word shut down again, but it kind of restricts them so much that they're like, okay, well, I can't really do anything, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I mean, that's how they explore their entire environment.
SPEAKER_07:Exactly. Instead of teaching the dog like what you want them to do instead, you know, or like teaching a loose lead walk, teaching, you know, don't put any pressure on the leash. We're just kind of physically like restraining them so that they can't do the behaviors that we don't want them to do, which is fine in some cases. But when I get dogs that have only existed on nose loops in uh heel and like that's it, they have kind of given up. They've given up, like, I'm never gonna be able to do anything. And so then when we take that nose loop off, they like don't know what to do. Um, so I'll like put a flexi lead on them and they like won't put pressure on the flexi lead, they're just kind of like standing there, like I don't know what to do, I don't want to do anything because like I don't want that pressure, I don't want that uncomfortable sensation. So that's kind of what I'm thinking of when I think of shutdown dogs, or like you know, I I think it's more old school, but there's a lot of trainers that just you know put dogs on place all day long, and if a dog gets up place, they're like blasting the dog on place. Yeah, it's basically like you are glued to place, and if you try to get up, there's gonna be a big consequence for that. And so the dogs have just given up and it looks like settling to the untrained eye, but like to some or to you know, some people, it's like that the those dogs look kind of shut down. I think part of that is necessary when we're training, you know, these pushy dogs, pet dogs with some level of stress. So I don't really support the people that will like go and be like, look at these dogs that are so shut down and blah blah blah blah blah. But yeah, you know, because you could record any dog training session and uh a dog's gonna show stress if we're you know putting pressure or applying new things or asking the dog to do something that they don't know, it's just like us. It's like if you recorded my workouts, you would be like, Wow, Meg hates this, you know, but like there's a certain level of stress that's required to get better. So that's gonna be a big difference between a dog that's just frustrated.
SPEAKER_03:So really quick, do you think that the behaviors like the dog voluntarily going to the crate or things like that are more a sign that he's trying to ask for help than with the frustration?
SPEAKER_07:I think he's just offering behaviors and he's rotating through behaviors that he's like, I don't know, you know, and the crate is very clear, right? Yeah, very clear of you're going into a box. So he's like trying to offer behaviors that he thinks you, the handler, wants. This a lot when people are trying to differentiate crate from place, you know, they'll be like place, and the dog will like run into crate. So that tells me, okay, I need to work on the clarity of my verbal cue. Okay, so how do we add more clarity to our verbal cue? I'm gonna add directional guidance. That directional guidance could be me, you know, walking over and pointing to place, you know, being really exaggerated in my body language. Great place, you know, differentiating that. So depending on what you are working on in that session, let's say you take the dog out and the dog's like, I don't know what to do. I have all of these feelings, right? I'm a border collie, I have energy for days, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah. How can I give the dog more guidance in that moment of what I want them to do? So, what were you working on in that session?
SPEAKER_03:Well, it was a consultation. So it um it was just me kind of getting an idea of the handler and the dog's relationship. And I could tell it was very scattered and kind of like you said, a lot of frustration that I misread, I guess. But um yeah, and so all that being said, moving forward, I was planning on working on clarity and I was gonna go back to foundations. I figured that that was probably the best place to go. So I think we could clarify those markers as well as clarify um those cues before we even worked on dog sports stuff. Yeah. But I guess my fear is that the or what I had kind of seen it as is that if it wasn't shut down, that I could see the behavior turning into shutdown.
SPEAKER_07:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:From the dog getting too frustrated and just continuously just like giving up kind of thing.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And I want to express that to the owner.
SPEAKER_07:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Um, or at least express to the owner that the owner's lack of clarity is what's causing these behaviors. And the owner is a little bit hard to confront, if you know what I mean. So I just want to make sure that I'm doing it in a way that doesn't make him feel attacked.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. So we don't want to position it as like you are doing this wrong. I would position it as like educating the owner on, let's say, for example, the different windows with dogs, right? So, like, I'll be like, okay, next time, whenever you come to the park for your lesson, I want the dog to be calm before our training session. So, you know, don't let him just jump out of the car, right? Do your thresholds with the crate manners. We put our our uh uh leash on, we do thresholds again, break, dog comes out. Maybe, you know, we tell the dog, go potty, go potty first, and then when the dog comes back over to you, show him, okay, now we're gonna open that window for training. So now we're gonna say, Are you ready? And then do whatever you want to be your starting cue for that training session is about to happen. Right as the dog is coming out and is like, I'm ready. Like, this is new, like, let's do something, let's work, especially if the dog has a working background. That's all, right? We see border collies work and they're bolting off of their little like tractor thing and like going and barking, right? Literally just doing what he knows. And then when he's not getting the response that like he wants or like any engagement or feedback from that, he's like, Okay, well, I'll put myself over here. Like, what is it gonna take to get engagement from you? I love an active dog in a training session, but I want to make sure that I am the one opening that window for the session. So, you know, be calm coming out of the car, coming out of the crate, have him walk over to you, maybe put the dog in a sit if you have obedience. If not, then just don't let the dog be unruly. Right. Like, let's say the dog is popping off. No, pop, pop, pop, pop on our leash. I'm not gonna put you in a sit or a down, but like you just can't be crazy just yet. Yeah. I'm in a place for that. And then you know, you have your treat pouch on you, you go, okay, so now we're gonna start our training session. So I'm gonna mark that with, are you ready? And that's when I kind of want the dog to bark at me or give me some sort of engagement. So when he's like perk up at me, yes, move backwards, pay, pay, pay. He's like, Oh my gosh, okay, we're doing something. What can I do to get that marker word to get the reward? And then he'll start offering behaviors and we can start rewarding even the barking, we can reward any bit of engagement on you because that's that window.
SPEAKER_03:Well, and that was part of my plan too. I was gonna um on our next lesson start to teach a barking cue because I did think that that would be a pretty decent, are you ready behavior? Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:So yeah, and then just go into it could literally be anything. You're just initial, yes. Let's say we're conditioning our marker words again. So, like you said, you're kind of going back to the foundations, on you know, our language, yes, pay, pay, pay. Dog engages with you again, yes, pay, pay, pay, move backwards. A couple reps of that, a border collie is gonna be like, Oh, I know exactly what is getting me rewarded. I engage with her, I get paid. So we can go into other behaviors, maybe try a sit, you know, say yes, pay, pay, pay, you know, to get the dog away from you, toss a piece of food on the ground, say, get it. Dog chases the food, they come back to you, yes, you know, just a little like food game there to get the dog engaged with you and to be like, yeah, this is the this is the window. And then you can go into like if you're gonna do agility with that dog, go into your luring. Once you've got that dog's attention on you, and once the dog understands that initial marker, and then every time you see that dog, that's how you're gonna start the session. So don't necessarily um go at your client with a like, hey, stop doing this. It's just like dog training, right? We don't want to shut the people down, we don't want to just initially be like, don't do this, you're doing this wrong. Dogs are gonna be like, oh my gosh, okay, well, I guess I'm just gonna go into the crate, be like, hey, do this. When you come up to your session, like, don't let your dog just jump out of the car, text, I'll come over to the car, I'll show you how we practice our threshold manners.
SPEAKER_03:So give them something tangible to work on.
SPEAKER_07:Okay, exactly. Just like what we're doing with the dog. Okay, you know, so we're training our our people just like we train dogs. Um, and I would even maybe do like you know, the walking drills that we do, the what you've been working on with your dog in the parking lot. I like to do that with pets, you know, like my malinois, I want them to be a little cracked out. So I'm like, yeah, bust out the crate door and you know, get ready. But if it it's very dependent on the owner, right? Like, does that guy want a super cracked out dog? Probably not. So let's practice a little bit of control. Our walking drills, you don't get to drag me over to the training session. We get over to the training session, I open that window. All right, let's go. And then I would almost split your session up into two sessions. Uh-huh. Something that we do with a lot of our lessons. We do not typically have the dog out for the full time. Yeah. So if you have a car crate, you know, 15 minutes. All right, go put your dog up, let them chill for another 15 minutes, and then we'll take them out again and then we'll work them again.
SPEAKER_03:So then, question because this client specifically, I'm working at the facility. Yeah. And at our facility, we do have crates inside. And so we've been crating or well, we crated him inside last time. Do you think it would maybe be smart? Because I also don't have the dog out the entire time. Yeah. Um, do you think it would be smart to put him in the car then and just have a complete reset instead of just in the crate in the facility?
SPEAKER_07:It depends. Okay. It depends. Like, if he's like popping off in the crate in the facility, then yeah, try car. But also it depends on like the environment, right? Like if the car is in the sun, we don't want the dog to be getting, you know, so like then in the facility is fine. You could even like if I'm at like a park or something, and let's say the person doesn't have a car crate, I'm just having the dog like on leash next to them. You know, okay, you go back onto leash into that window of I'm not putting you into a command, but if you start being unruly, I'm gonna correct you. Okay, you know, yeah, so it's kind of like a tether situation, and then you can talk to the owner about what you guys just did. Okay, so during that session, we worked on this, this, this, this. This is what I want you to do the next time you take the dog out, and then you'll go through the same process again.
SPEAKER_06:Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's probably more digestible too. I'm kind of bad about like speaking during the session, and sometimes I feel like the owners like they're trying to work and hear what I'm saying, and that can be kind of like chaotic for them.
SPEAKER_07:So, yeah, and like you guys will sometimes see me, like when I do a live training session in these calls, I'll be like, Okay, I'm gonna do the session and then I'm gonna explain what I did. Yeah, so I'll kind of I'll go in with a general game plan of what I want to work on with that dog. So with my owners, I'll be like, Okay, so before I take the dog out, what my game plan is today is to mark some engagement. So when I see the dog engaging with me, I'm gonna mark that with my yes. This is also conditioning my yes marker to mean come back to me and get your reward. And they're like, okay, you know, so that way you're kind of priming them for the session that they're about to watch so they know what to look for. And then afterwards, you know, sessions don't always go as planned. If I'm like, oh, the dog is checking out, I might add some leash pops on there, pop, pop, pop, dog comes back to me. Yes, right. So then I'm like, hey, did you see when I popped the dog on the leash? That was because I was losing them a little bit. And I also would like to condition the dog that pop pop on leash means look to me, come back to me. So then I'll kind of break down what the session was and how it went. Okay. Yeah. Does that give you a better idea of how to kind of structure everything?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and how to approach the situation.
SPEAKER_07:So and most of my sessions are structured the same way, like they're all kind of structured like that, especially in the beginning. And then once I have a client that understands the how it works, right? I'm just like, okay, go get your dog, you know, and they know they need to have their treat pouch on them, they need to have their rewards. They go get the dog, the dog doesn't rush out of the threshold. Another big thing is potty the dogs before your training session. Get into that habit of okay, walk them over to the grass, potty them. Once they've potted, then they can come into the training session. Because all of these little cues are leading up to like, we're about to do a training session. Like this is so much fun opening that window for the dog.
SPEAKER_03:So well, and then that also builds up the anticipation, too, right? Because then the dog is following the pattern of behaviors and is like, oh snap, I know this is coming. Now I have this, now I have this. Now it's time.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, exactly. And for the owners too. You know, like they know their routine. So they'll come into the facility and they'll start. Are you ready? The dog starts barking. Yes, you know, they don't know how to start their session. And then I'll be like, I come up with a little game plan with them before they go and get their dog. Hey, what are we working on? You know, what's what's our game plan today? Well, I've been doing this and this and this. I want help with this. Amazing, go get your dog, you know, and then we'll kind of navigate that in the training session. And it'll be like, amazing, go put your dog away and we'll talk about it.
SPEAKER_04:Question. Yes. Um, so barking when people come in again. Um, we made an interesting observation over Christmas when I usually put her in her in a crate or behind a gate um when I know I'm expecting someone to come in. Um, so she she like I think that's become a cue of like, oh my god, oh my god, something's happening. Yeah. Over Christmas, um, I was too busy in the kitchen prepping stuff and we left the door open and my parents just like came in. And every 10 minutes, new people would come in. All of these folks, she's happened to have met at least twice. So she didn't bark at all. Like, greeted them, gave them a little bit of like a nose boop and was fine. Um obviously, if a new person came in and like after that, we had friends over, she continued to bark. But I I tried testing out if she would, if it was just like a barrier aggression sort of thing. So let them come in while she was still like in the living room, which is where the entrance is. She she did bark that time. So we're once again going to be hosting a couple of people for um like a couple hours over a meal, wondering what I should be doing. Like she's e-collar trained, so I know that that's a tool in the tool belt. Um, there's going to be a dog. She's met that dog and his parents before in the past. So she should be familiar. I just think once she starts barking, she'll forget that like she's processing people, stranger, not stranger, um, and stuff like that. So just wondering how to set her up for success.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. Um first, do you like worry about her rushing people or jumping up on people or like biting people when they come in?
SPEAKER_04:Um, she approaches them. She doesn't bite, but she'll approach them and like start to like distance Bark a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like she's she's like backing up as she does it, but she'll like sort of like go and try to sniff them. So it's like very she does the same thing, but in a positive spin when we play like herding games with her of like attacks the ball a little bit and like backs up. Um so I don't want her to do that, and I don't want it to like escalate to something bad. So I want to treat this as a good learning experience. Just like, should I if I keep her in her crate and she can't do anything about it, I feel like it she never stops. She eventually stops barking, actually. So maybe I can just do that. Um, but given what happened over Christmas, it just a question was it what's put into my mind of like, is there something better where I was just super surprised that she didn't bark at all after seeing people slowly trickle in. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Um have you had her on leash before? No. Okay. Personally, that's what I would do when the new people are coming in, and then have her off leash, and then all the people that she's comfy with be like, hey, just ignore her, you know, because that's really what she wants. She's a little bit insecure, right? So she's barking and is like backing up, like, uh, uh, you know, that's like a sign of insecurity. Ah, you're a new person. Oh, I don't really want you to come over here, so I'm gonna bark to keep you away. Yeah, right. So just for like everybody's safety and her not like yeah, it would hate for her to like rush somebody and like nip or do something like that, you know, have her on leash, and you can reward her for engaging with you. Okay, so she comes out and same thing as what I was talking with Katie about, like, not necessarily in a command, you know, not necessarily in a command. We're just gonna be hanging out, and like something that you're gonna have to be very mindful of is you can't be weird. You need to act like, oh, I don't even know that this person is coming in right now, no no no no, like doing something else as they come in. Hi, you know, if she goes to bark, no, pop, pop, pop, she comes back over to you.
unknown:Good.
SPEAKER_07:What do we do? Sorry, like I haven't seen you train that much, but something that I could see you doing is getting a little frantic if she does pop off, and then you're like, no, and then you pop, pop, pop, and then you're like, ah, pay, you know, pay you here. Like, I would rather you just like pop, pop, pop, and then be chill, and then like whenever she's chill, good pay, you know, so don't worry about like rewarding her as soon as she comes back to you or something like that, you know.
SPEAKER_04:So I should let her well, she's leashed in an area like uh close to where they would come in, not in a super far away distance. Because the way we're we're set up is that there's like a decent amount of space in the living room. So I could just be standing there with her and give her enough leash slack for her to like do whatever and like not really put her in a heel command or anything like that. Or I could stay further in the distance. The the other thing is like some guests can definitely listen to me and not be weird, but there's there's a dog coming, so like that dog is not chill at all. Like he's fine, but he just loves dogs and loves people, so it's going to be really excitable. And then I've already told my grand, she's not coming this time, but my grandma loves her and she's like on a cane. And when she gets excited, and you're like, hi, she'll eventually like jump and like my grandma likes it, but I'm like, that's actually very dangerous. So can you just like be chill? So there's certain guests I can't control, is what I'm trying to say. So in those instances, do I just like try to have the lesson and be chill, but like be give her no room for actual failure?
SPEAKER_07:No room for actual failure. You want to get to the point where you can proof it so that you could even open the door, right? And this is something that I do with my clients. Like you have your dog on leash, somebody we practice like knocking at the door, they open the door, hello, welcome. You know, she barks a little bit, no, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. Hey, come on in, you know, they come in, but like she can be right there next to you, or you can sit on the couch, somebody comes in, come in, they come in, she starts barking, no, pop, pop, pop, you know, and nothing like crazy, but just enough to disrupt her, to be like, hey girl, not what I want. Um, and then like same thing with greeting your grandma, right? Like, have her on leash with you. Hi, grandma. Like, you should be able to say hi and like her still hang out there, and you can pay her. She's being good and she's just hanging out there. And then if she goes to jump, no, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. And this is something that like we I practice in like ring sport. So there's like a scenario where you are it's called defensive handler, and like the first half of the scenario is I have my dog in heel, I walk up to the decoy and I say, Hi, how are you? And I shake the person's hand, and my dog has to stay there. So, how I shaped that scenario is like, hi, pay, good, hi, pay, you know. So, like you and your husband can rehearse this too, like get some friends and be like, bang on the door, you know, walk over, open the door, good job, pay, pay, pay, close the door, do it again, do it a whole bunch of times. Okay, yeah. But I would for the stage of training that you're at, not put her in a command. Or like when you're walking up to a the door instead of like heel, I would be like with me, you know, and we kind of talked about that last time about how with me is just a little less structured. Just hang out with me, just be in the little bubble next to me. I don't necessarily need you in a tight heel in obedience because I also don't want to like taint my obedience and be like constantly correcting you. So, like let her, you know, give her the chance, just like how we were talking about on our walk. Like, you're at that stage where you can loosen up the reins a little bit, give her the opportunity to make the right decision and pay her for that. And if she decides to make the wrong decision, that'll be a correction, okay.
SPEAKER_04:And um, is there a reason why I should be popping on the collar versus using an e-collar? Either you can do either. Okay, just like a leash because just in case to if that she's actually attached to me if it doesn't work.
SPEAKER_07:Okay, cool. Yeah, and like it would be a lower level on your e-collar. I don't necessarily want it to be a correction, I want it to just kind of disrupt. Okay, you know, I don't want you like freaking out if I'm like no, and then she's like, Oh, I'm so sorry, you know, like I just want it to be like, hey girl, not what I asked, you know, dim is going on, kind of like how we are with like a in the beginning stages of like our loose lead walk. You know, she gets out in front of a little bit, tap, tap, tap, tap, just to kind of bring her back. Okay, cool. Yes, of course. But that's something that like when we're training dogs, we we rehearse that all the time, and it's kind of silly, you know, like one person sitting on the couch, you could have the dog on place, come in, you know, or like even if nobody's there, I'll walk over to the door and I'll be like, hello, you know, and you open the door and then you close it. Like, think of all of the cues that we're giving our dogs when people come over.
SPEAKER_00:I have a super basic question. Yeah. Um, how do we train the marker words? The yes one in particular is the one that we were trying to figure out how to do it because I'm not entirely sure if either of my dogs are understanding what I'm trying to do.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, yeah, sure. So kind of like what I was talking with Katie about creating that like window of like, all right, we're gonna be training right now. Right now, um, I would try to pick one place where you want to do your training sessions. Um, maybe in your backyard or you know, somewhere around your house with you guys. I think we were working on settling in the house. So maybe not doing that like in your living room, maybe like in your yard or your driveway or something. Okay. So pick the place you're gonna have your dog on leash. If you're outside, their immediate response is probably gonna be to start like sniffing or engaging with the environment. So, what I want you to do is simply stand there with your dog on a leash and you're kind of gonna be a post. And then you're gonna wait. Eventually, your dog is gonna get bored because they're not allowed to pull where they want to pull or engage with the you know, piece of grass or leaf or whatever it is, you're keeping them from doing that, and they're gonna look back at you like hello, person, and you're gonna go, yes, and then you're gonna take a couple steps back and you're gonna have some rewards in both hands. So you're gonna go, yes, step back, reward, step back again, reward, step back again, reward. You're gonna reward a couple times. The reason why we want to reward more than once as we're moving backwards is because I don't want yes to mean come back to me, get your one piece of food, and then check out. That happens a lot of times when people are, you know, teaching recall, for example. They recall their dog back, they say yes, the dog's like, oh, well, yes just means come get that one piece of food and then go do whatever I want again. So I want it to be like when I say yes, keep moving with me. And we're gonna change up the number of times that we reward. Sometimes it might be two times, sometimes it might be four times, but you're gonna want to stick around here because I might keep paying you a whole bunch. So then, you know, we're finished rewarding that rep, go back to doing nothing. If your dog engages with you again, looks at you, maybe even like barks some sort of like, hey, what the heck are we doing? What's going on? Yes, again, pay, pay, pay, pay. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00:Yep, that makes sense. So after the initial rep, um, going back to doing nothing and being a post, any sort of engagement back at me is a reward. A yes reward.
SPEAKER_07:Correct. So we're just trying to get the dog to almost start the training session. Like, I want you to give me a little bit of something. So that's where I talk about dogs being active. I want an active dog, not a reactive dog. I want a dog that's like when I take them out, they look at me and they're like, I want to train. I'm kind of like gaslighting them into believing that like the training session is their idea. I don't want to have to like beg a dog for attention. So that's why I'm just kind of standing there and being boring. And then whenever they do give me that attention, yes, and I'm gonna light up. I'm gonna be kind of exaggerated with that. And that's kind of what dog training is is like I'll be flat, you give me what I want. Yeah, good job. And then I'm gonna go back to being flat again. You give me what I want, yes, nice, pay, pay, pay. Um, and then once your dog is like, all right, what the heck are we doing? They're super focused on you. We can start throwing in some other things there. So maybe that's a sit, you know. So you tell your dog, sit, they go into a sit. As soon as their butt touches the ground, yes, pay, pay, pay. They're like, Oh, okay, I'm starting to understand what this yes means. When you tell me to do something and you mark that with yes, I get a reward. So it teaches them how to win the game. And then you can throw in whatever you want. It could be obedience, it could be just, you know, I can throw in like, get it, chase the piece of food. I'm gonna toss a little piece of food on the ground. They chase it, they turn around, yes, they come back to me, pay, pay, pay. So that's really good for like for you, especially. Let's say I need I want to recall one of my dogs off another dog, right? My dogs are playing too rough and I want to disrupt them. Hey, come, they come back to me. Yes, pay, pay, pay, right? I have more boom. I there's meaning to my yes because it's always followed up with a reward on me. So they hear that yes, and they're gonna be conditioned to, oh, I'm gonna shoot back to you.
SPEAKER_00:Got it. That's helpful. Thank you.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, for sure. And um, you can also layer it like let's say you're standing there like a post, and you know, your dog is pulling on the leash. I can kind of like pop on my leash a bit, a bit, they're gonna turn back around to me. Yes, pay, pay, pay. So then I've just taught them, hey, when you feel the leash, look back to me, come back to me, turn that leash pressure off. That leash is like tight when they're at the end of it, and then they move back to me, that leash pressure goes off. Yes, I can mark that release of pressure with a yes. So then I've also just conditioned, hey, when you feel the leash, give in to it, and then I'll reward you. So dogs kind of have this default of I put pressure on the leash, I get to keep moving forward. They when we take them out on a walk, we let them pull us over to the grass, pull over to smells, pull over to things. So I kind of want to do the opposite. I want to teach the dog that you don't get to pull on the leash and go to where you want. The ticket to you going to where you want is no pressure on the leash. So we have to teach the opposite of that. So that's where um I have videos on you know, my walking drills and loose lead walk, that sort of stuff comes into play. Dog puts pressure on leash, they move with the leash, good leash pressure turns off. Make sense?
SPEAKER_00:Yep, makes sense.
SPEAKER_07:Cool. So all of that is gonna kind of play into it. And then once you've conditioned your yes marker, so you can work on that this week and also practice your like, are you ready? You know, once I have a dog that when I go out into our training spot, they're immediately looking at me. Then I can open my training window with, are you ready? And they're like, Yeah, I'm ready. And then they look at you or bark or give any sort of engagement with you, yes, and we move right into that. Um, then once you've practiced your yes, we can add our duration marker, which is gonna be good. So good for me is reward in position. So in the context of let's say a sit, I tell my dog sit, instead of their butt touching the ground and me saying yes, they sit and I can say good, and I'm gonna quickly step into them and I'm gonna meet them where they're at, and I'm gonna reward them in position. So they know, oh, when she says good, I stay here. And that's kind of our implied stay. And so these markers just add a lot of clarity in our expectations with our dogs, you know. So let's say you want to take your dogs out in public and you put them in a down, good. I can keep paying them in that down position, and they know good means, all right, I just gotta hang out here and they're gonna keep paying me, you know. But if I said yes, they would shoot out of that position and come back to me. So the clarity in our markers and our communication helps our dogs like look to us for guidance. It's not just about like those obedience behaviors, it's the dogs feel seen. They're like, oh, I know exactly what you want from me, right? So, like in moments of uncertainty, or maybe they're a little insecure, or maybe they're you know, doing something that they're like, I don't really know if I should be doing this. They're gonna look to you for guidance because they're like, he always kind of tells me what to do, and he's really clear with his expectations. So I'm gonna look to him and see what he has to say about this, you know, and um. You can also start your no. No is followed by pops on the leash. So like when you're tethering your dog and they start chewing on the leash, no, walk over, pop, pop, pop. It's not emotional. It's literally just no, followed by that leash pressure is going to be a little uncomfy. Setting that boundary there. So yes, no, and good are going to be your three main markers. You're probably going to suck at it at first, and you're going to be like, yes, good. I mean, uh, you know, but that's okay. There's a there's a learning curve with it, and you'll get better with it just like anything else, the more that you practice.
SPEAKER_00:Great. That's helpful. Thank you.
SPEAKER_07:You're very welcome.
SPEAKER_00:And we do suck at them right now.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. And like record your sessions. I told you this in our uh lesson. Record your sessions, and you're gonna watch it back and you're gonna be like, oh my god, that was so confusing. I I recorded a session with Muffin yesterday and I watched it back and I was like, what was I even asking? Like, what were we even trying to do in that session? I had to send it to one of my friends who's a trainer, and I was like, This is bad, right? Like, what you know, and he kind of broke things down for me, but I was struggling with the same thing like Katie's dog was. Muffin was getting frustrated with me because I wasn't clear on what I wanted from her. And so she was just like looking at me and barking. She's like, Well, you like it when I bark at you, so I guess I'm just gonna bark. And I'm like, No, this isn't what I want. And she's like, I think this is what you want. I'm like, it's not what I want, but I don't know how to communicate what I want, you know. So you'll like you'll still have the moments where you're like, I don't know what the heck that was. But when you record it and watch it back, it's super helpful. That way, next time you do a training session, you'll be like, Okay, I'm not gonna do that thing that I did in the last session. I I have a couple of things.
SPEAKER_08:So I'm trying to clean up um our heel. And it's it's like he's like he's not really in avoidance with the e-caller. So like he understands the position, and if I tap him, like he zips back into it. So like he understands what it means, but he will immediately just be like, Oh, like what's this? Like, just drifting and like yeah, like I don't know if I he reacts pretty big and pretty fast, which is like the reaction I want. He's just not sticking in it.
SPEAKER_07:Yes, he's pretty young, yeah. You should probably lower your expectations a little bit. Yeah, okay. Um, is this for a pet heel or a focused heel?
SPEAKER_08:Um, I'm working towards a contact heel, but um, I'm not holding him to that now. Like I just want him to not totally check out and like walk in a bubble.
SPEAKER_07:Is this like in training sessions or in real life?
SPEAKER_08:Um it's training sessions, but in real life scenario. So I'll do like a short bit of every walk. Like I'll like pick a lower distraction area and do it. Like it's not in my house, is what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_07:Okay, but like you're walking to the spot where you're gonna do a training session at. Yeah, okay. Um, what is your command for walking to that place? For walking. I know you're not doing a contact heel all the way through a park. No, okay. So what are you telling him? Like, let's say when he gets out of the car, are you putting him into command? Is he out of command? Are you doing a with me? Are you doing a pet heel?
SPEAKER_08:I'm doing a pet heel. Okay. Or he's out of command, in which case the only expectation is like, don't put pressure on the leash, but you can go wherever you want.
SPEAKER_07:Okay. Are you labeling that with anything? No. Okay. I think you have a clarity issue. Okay. So I would probably do a with me, depending on the criteria. Yeah. It's just don't drag me and be 10 feet out in front of me. Like acknowledge that I am here and stick around me. Okay. Okay. For me, I like to do with me on the right hand side. Yeah. That helps with that clarity as well. Okay. Okay. So release commands to come out of the car, you say break or free, whatever. He comes out of the car. Um, with me, walk over to the grass, go potty. All right, with me, we walk, walk, walk, walk, walk. Yeah, don't even put pressure on the leash, right? So, like if he goes to put pressure, pop, pop, pop, yeah, back. Um, and then whenever you get to the spot where you want to do your training session, have all your cues. You ready? You know, yes, whatever. Start your training session how you do, and then go into the contact heel. Yeah, I think you're I don't think you should be adding a lot of distance to your contact heel.
SPEAKER_09:Okay.
SPEAKER_07:I don't think you should be like trying to go for like, I mean, I'm working on a contact heel with Minka and she's freaking five years old, and like I walk like five steps.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that's where we're at. It's it's more so the like pet heel that he's just kind of checked out immediately.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, I think be really clear on what the what the criteria are for what you're asking of him. Yeah, you know, because if you're not if you haven't taught him like the different criteria for like a pet heel versus contact heel, he's gonna be like, hey, I'm gonna try. Okay, she's letting me like out and font, and then all of a sudden I'm getting like popped.
SPEAKER_09:Yeah.
SPEAKER_08:You know, and so what's the value? Because like, if my expectation is that like he basically never puts pressure on the leash, like what's the value of labeling a like with me?
SPEAKER_07:Like if if that's sort of just the default, because I can say break and you can run off and do what you want, right? So yeah, that's where I would like use my flexi, or like I have my dog on flexi with a with me, yeah. So when for Muffin, for example, when I'm walking up to our training session, I take her out of the car, I break, go potty. Immediately I want her to go potty because that starts our training, right? So she pees with me, and then we're walking, walking, walking. If she's hanging out by me, I'm paying that. Good, good, yeah. And then if you start to pull ahead because she wants to train, so she's like dragging over to like the tugs and things on the ground, no, pop, pop, pop, pop, or tap on my e-collar with me. She goes, with me, good, pay, yeah, walk, walk, pay, and like I might be taking a couple steps, and it took me a long time to be able to do that because she was so like amped to go train, especially when we were doing like like Shane was standing there and she wants to do bite work. She's like, Fuck yeah, you know, and she's like pulling super hard. No, no, no, no, with me. And I would take like 10 minutes before my training session just to practice that with me. Yeah, and then we get to the spot, and then I'll do, are you ready or obedience, whatever that is.
SPEAKER_09:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Um, when you're practicing your contact heel, do you have leash on? Yeah. Okay, are you pulling leash this way? So, like if dog is over here, are you pulling leash this way?
SPEAKER_08:Like into me, yeah, but like only for us like a stab.
SPEAKER_07:Okay. I would probably do more leash. Okay. That was the advice that I was given by some ring people for the contact heel. So I'm doing if I'm doing like a lure, are you rewarding with food or ball? I do both. Okay. So reward is on the outside, leash pressure goes in. Okay. And then you also need to understand, or the dog also needs to understand very, very clear leash pressure.
SPEAKER_09:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:So maybe I'm doing leash pressure exercises in my house against a wall where I pull the leash a tiny bit this way, yes, pay. A tiny bit this way, yes, pay. Yeah. I did this with Muffin last week. Cool. Okay. I'm working on her focused heel. She's forging a little bit in her focused heel. So I need her back a little bit. And when I was applying pressure on her, she's like, yeah, pull pulling forward even more. So I go, okay, we need to go back to prong caller. And I'm standing against a wall. So wall is here, muffin is here next to me. I have food in my hand. Leash goes back, yes, pay. Leash goes back, yes, pay.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, would I would slow down a little bit. Okay. And then he's kind of like leaky. I feel like fake calm, I think, because he like knows that's what I'm looking for. Yes. Because I like, I want calm before we leave for a walk. I want calm when we get back. And he'll he's like calm. He's like lying down on his side, but he's like like vibrating. And if I like release him from that, he shoots off and it's just like totally crazy energy. So I don't know how to get him to be actually calm.
SPEAKER_07:He might not ever be actually calm, but all you can do is like work more towards it. So something that like Toma does with his dog because his dog is exactly the same way. Um lots of food rewards. If your dog is very driven by the ball, food is probably gonna slow them down a little bit. So grabbing a little handful of food and dropping it between their feet. The other thing is a bit of a timeout. Okay. So if my dog is like and like Shane does this with his dog because he struggles with the leaking too, Toma does this with his dog, Celine does it like all high drive dogs. They're basically working on this. Yeah. Um, flexi, I put the dog in a down, I walk away, I do back to the dog.
SPEAKER_09:Right.
SPEAKER_07:So, okay, we're gonna ignore you and be really boring. And for a high drive dog, that's the biggest punishment. Yeah, you know, they're like, wait, no, come back, please. I want to do a training session, please, please, please, please, please. I'll be quiet. And then they're quiet, good, come back, drop some food. Yeah, sorry, yeah. But when uh Toma first started working on that with Hawk, he was so strung up that he literally got like anxiety diarrhea, like while we're working on this. So start working on it.
SPEAKER_08:I like it wasn't it kind of popped up in the last like month or so, like he wasn't quite this crazy before. Like he would light up for a training session, but he was reasonable to live with. And uh like a week ago or something, I was like getting ready to go for a walk, and he was just like ridiculous. So I put him on place and I was like, you need to at least stop barking, yeah. And he screamed for half an hour.
SPEAKER_07:The other thing that you could consider is lemon juice, okay.
SPEAKER_02:So in right in his mouth, okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Um, we had to do that with Hawk because he was the same way. He was just like working himself up into a frenzy, yeah. Um if it works, great. If it doesn't, don't keep trying. Okay, you know, but it kind of like just gets them out of it. I think like combination of it's kind of a correction and it's like sour, they're like, whoa, what the fuck is that? You know, but I've seen some dogs that just like lap it up, they're like, well, I'm just like, okay, that's not gonna work. Um, I wouldn't necessarily correct that with e-collar or anything. If anything, walk away. Right. That's the dog.
SPEAKER_09:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:When you're chill, I'll come back over and we'll continue our training session. Cool. Yeah. What kind of dog do you have again?
SPEAKER_08:He's a smooth collie. But I'm training him in agility and I've been building a lot of drive, so he's kind of a nutcase. A bunch of people recently were like, so you're gonna need to learn a lot of new skills if you ever get like actually a high drive dog because you built a monster from like a medium drive dog. It's like, yeah, fair enough. I'll start learning them now.
SPEAKER_07:Lots of tether, lots of place. Yeah, yeah. How does um in that like sport world, how do they feel about leaking dogs?
SPEAKER_08:Um like while we're running, they tend to not really care. Like if a dog is like doing it correctly and really hyped about it, it's it's okay. But they dislike, like, if you're at a clinic and your dog's in the crate being a monster, they're like, Okay, leave.
SPEAKER_07:So will your dog be a monster in the crate? Sorry, will your dog like be a monster in the crate?
SPEAKER_08:Um, he's pretty good. If there's like a fast dog running nearby, he'll pop off, and then I'll just cover the crate, and usually he'll figure himself out. But he's he's not bad, like he fakes calm really well, is what I've realized. Like before, I was like, Oh, he like has a good off switch, and now I'm like, no, he just has learned that that's what I'm expecting of him.
SPEAKER_07:They're so smart. Yeah, they're so smart, yeah. Yeah, you need to practice some settling. Yeah, he's not that old either.
SPEAKER_08:No, he's 14 months.
SPEAKER_07:You're gonna create a crazy ass dog.
SPEAKER_08:Yep. You're like, this is what I wanted. Yeah, yeah, that's what I signed up for. Oh my goodness. But yeah, let me know how that goes. Yeah, no, I'm getting better, like toddling his energy and agility, which is I think helping like transfer to the regular day stuff as well. But yeah, I realized I was like, he's not calm, he's faking it.
SPEAKER_06:He knows what I want. He knows. That's funny. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I have one more question since we were talking about uh contact heels or focus heels. So Goddard, he and I are working on our focus heel right now, and we are transitioning off of the um front foot target work or the bull work, sorry, um into just flat on the ground. And he is so sensitive to leech pressure. So with him, he comes a little bit too far ahead. I give him that little boop and then he'll back up completely. So would you recommend going back to a hand target or what?
SPEAKER_07:Did you start with a hand target?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So initially I had taught my contact heel with a hand target at my side.
SPEAKER_07:Contact or focused?
SPEAKER_03:Uh well, my contact heel. Now we're transitioning it into a focused heel.
SPEAKER_07:So okay. Um, make sure that you have different commands for that.
SPEAKER_03:I do, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Okay, perfect. And then yeah, I would definitely go back to a hand touch.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_07:Um I have you done hand touch on the bowl. Um, not really, actually, no. Okay. Do hand touch on the bowl. You're he's on the bowl, you're facing him. Okay. Put your hand out, say your command, he touches it. Yes, okay. I want you to be able to move your hand, and he pivots on the bowl following your hand.
SPEAKER_03:Uh-huh. So we so we have done that, yes. Like pivot work. Yeah. Okay. Sorry. I was thinking about, yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_07:And then transition that to pivoting next to you. So you're going to kind of step into him. So hand touch here, you're going to step into him. Pay.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. So like if he was in front of me, I would turn him, step in, and then pay right there.
SPEAKER_07:You're going to pay with your hand up here. So if we want focused heel, you need to he needs to be here. Yeah. And your hand's gonna be a little bit out to the side. Okay. Yeah. So not super tight. And it it just depends. Like, Muffin is she does like cocks her head to the side and looks up at me like that, you know. So I have to like maneuver myself with her further away from my body. Minka, I can have her really tight with my body. So just kind of play around with it based on the head position that you like. And I would do it in front of a mirror. Okay. Yeah. And you're probably gonna keep hand touch for a while.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_07:So then same sort of movement, like let's say you're calling it OPA, OPA hand touch. Yep. And then eventually hand is gonna be already in position over to your side. OPA go into the hand touch or like touch whatever your command is for like the dog to touch. Okay. So start static and then you can start adding movement into it. But when you start adding movement on the floor, like it's it's a new picture, right? So just take a step. Yes. Okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
unknown:Cool.
SPEAKER_06:I'll try that. Yeah, let me know how that goes. Oh I couldn't use the hand touch.
SPEAKER_03:It's like kind of crazy working with a dog that like you've spent so much time doing distance work with, and now I'm transitioning into no, you need to be next to me. And I'm noticing frustration with it from him and from myself. But yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Is he sensitive with like overhead pressure?
SPEAKER_03:No, that's the thing. He's like the big he'll go up to strangers and literally just like nuzzle them. Like body pressure is usually not a problem. Unless we're running. If we're running in agility and he starts to feel a little bit too much extra pressure from me, he's out. He's done.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. Play around with it and let me know how it goes. You might kind of see that. I and I don't know, like I struggled with that with Muffin. Like I couldn't lure her because she doesn't like my hand. She's like, uh, like, ew, I don't want you over me. Like, don't touch me. Or even if I like kiss the top of her head, she's like, you know. So like then when I went into the hand touch, because I was like, Oh, I can't lure her. I'm gonna try a hand touch. She was doing the same thing. She's like, her heel is like her head cocked back and sideways to try to get away from my hand. So then I had to go to ball on the outside of her head to keep her head straight and in the position that I want without too much like overhead pressure. So just play around with it, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that might have to be the move too, because he tends to angle out a lot as well.
SPEAKER_07:But if you have a good touch, you should be able to pivot your hand in the heel position and move his butt. So practice on the bull first, okay, like pivoting his butt with your hand position and then take it on the floor, do the same thing, kind of pivot him into the heel position, and then you should be able to, you know, move his butt based on the angle of your hand. Okay, yeah, you should record that.
SPEAKER_03:I I'm going to. I'm going to work right after this call, so I'm going to work on it when I get there.
SPEAKER_07:Post it. I feel like people would like to see that.
SPEAKER_03:That's the thing. I keep recording all my sessions, but like getting the guts to post it.
SPEAKER_07:Post it in this community first.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_07:You know it's all like dog people, so we're not gonna judge.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's a good idea.
SPEAKER_07:Cool. Alrighty, y'all. Any last little things?
SPEAKER_08:Every time we talk about muffin, I'm like, that's my dog.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:She's like a little feral writing. Yeah, mine too.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I do have a quick question. Yeah, for sure. Um, just and it doesn't even have to be something that you answer necessarily right now, but like talking about with me, I would love to see like demonstrations of teaching that because I'm definitely in the same position where I have commands for and markers for like we're getting started on training, or like they know to stay in the car until I release them and all of that. But sort of the in-between I never really worked on very well, and I would like to have that with me. Um, but I'm kind of just wondering like, what does that look like teaching it?
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. Um, I have to have a dog that understands leash pressure first. So I'm sure dogs already have that. But I don't know, I wish I had this like uh step-by-step how to teach with me, but it's just like, hey, you get too far out, and like I'm gonna apply leash pressure to put you back into position, and then like I'm just paying you in a loose walk, basically, you know.
SPEAKER_06:Okay.
SPEAKER_07:So like heal for me is if you break the barrier of my legs, leash goes on. With me, is not as strict. Like, you can be out in front of me, but if you are completely checked out and you're putting a bunch of pressure, no, you know, and then I'll stop the dog. And then when they are hanging out around me, I'll pay them there.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_07:That's kind of like how I shaped it, is just um not necessarily doing the walking drills like how I would do with heel, because that is very much like okay, leash pressure goes off when you're behind me. With me is just like the dog already understands leash pressure, so you get too far out in front and I'm popping on you.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_07:And so the right side helps, you know. So, like if you've been doing a heel on your left side, right side with me. I have the dog over there, and they're automatically gonna be like, Oh, I'm not in heel. They're gonna start pulling, pop, pop, pop with me.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That sounds like a really good one for both of us to work on since uh like getting accustomed to working with both hands is I mean, I I've done it, like, but I feel like it would be good for me to get more of that muscle memory with going back and forth.
SPEAKER_07:It was very hard for me. And honestly, muffin still defaults to the left hand side, and I have to like drag her back over to the right hand side. So I'll post some videos because I need to work on it anyways. Okay, yeah, I'll I'll show you guys what the with me and the difference between the criteria of a heel versus a with me. Cool. Awesome. All right, y'all. Thanks so much for being here. Um, if you need any help with anything, just shoot me messages. Um, Grant, let me know if you want to do a session and when you want that to be. Just send me a message in the community, okay?
SPEAKER_00:We'll do. Thank you.
SPEAKER_07:All righty. I will see you all next week. Thanks, Meg. Thank you. Thanks, Meg.
SPEAKER_05:Thank you. Alrighty, y'all. Thank you so much for joining us this week. If you would like to join in on our calls in our community, you can go to community. Trainer dot com or just visit our website. Thank you so much for being here, and we'll see you next week.