Yotam Dagan

Yotam Dagan is a former Israeli Navy SEAL commander and a certified clinical psychologist with expertise in Combat stress reactions (PTSD) and hostage negotiations. He is the author of two books, and he recently founded Dugri Inc., a startup that builds a support network for healthcare workers.

Thanks for tuning in! Check out more episodes of The Well-Being Connector at www.bethejoy.org/podcast.

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Welcome to the Coalition for Physician Wellbeing's podcast, The Wellbeing Connectors, where through our guests we explore ideas for making healthcare a better place to work and serve. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Today I'm pleased to have Yotem Dagan on the show. Yotum is a former Israeli Navy SEAL commander and a certified clinical psychologist with expertise in complex stress reactions and hostage negotiations. Upon completion of his military tenure, Yotum co-founded programs to help army veterans reintegrate and take leading positions in the Israeli public service and civil society. He developed a unique, resiliency training model, which he describes in his book, Operational Stress Management, an innovative training program for verse responders. The model has been implemented by the U.S. government and the Urban Area Security Initiative in New Jersey. Recently, Yotum published his second book, an autobiography called The Time to Kill a Time to Heal, an Israeli Navy Sales Journey. Yotem is also the founder and CEO of Jupiter, a startup that builds support networks for healthcare workers. Yotum holds a BA in psychology, history, and philosophy, and an MA in political psychology from the University of Haifa in Israel, and a master's degree in public administration from the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University. Well, thank you, Yotem, for joining us today.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Thank you for inviting me over.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

You know, I want to talk about so many things with you, but your history obviously is uh so unique with your military background and it gives you such unique perspective. Can you talk a little bit about um your background and what you got you got you interested in the field of resilience and uh well-being?

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Yeah, uh, you know, my military background is it's like 20, almost 25 years of service, but it actually starts much earlier when at the age of 11. Um was a Saturday um afternoon, uh mid-March. It was cold in Israel on the Mediterranean coast, and I was wandering um uh just close to the beach when all of a sudden I saw a group of 10 or 11 men wearing camouflaged uniforms, um holding AK-47 uh assault rifles who were um actually moving very quickly towards where I was. So I hid in the bush and they passed very close to me, and then I heard gunshots. And um, when I got out of the bush, about I don't know, probably half an hour later, I realized that there was a terrorist attack underway. And that attack evolved into uh uh a massacre on the coastal road in Israel. 1978. Um, 50 Israelis were killed, and and um that started a war with Lebanon. Um, and so that was probably the starting point, you know, surviving this attack to what later became a career as a special forces operator in the Israeli Navy SEALs. Um our unit is called Shayet at 13 or the 13th Flotilla. I was an underwater demolition um diver and uh a team leader, and we did a lot of a lot of operational work, including diving into uh ports in you know hostile waters, detecting um enemy ships, and then just blowing them up, sabotage them in order to prevent um attacks like the one who almost took my own life. So uh pretty soon in my 20s, I I did that um only to later you know suffer the wounds of the invisible wounds of uh war, of uh psychological trauma. And for many years I was actually dealing with post-traumatic stress without even knowing that that was the case. You know, when the going gets tough, the tough gets going, and you just you know bite your lips and uh um you know stiff your the muscle of your belly and just move forward. But somehow um in my mid-20s and on, I figured that something was wrong. And my way of um, you know, healing myself was to learn and to practice healing others as a clinical psychologist. So that in in a nutshell is what brought me to the path that um, you know, first healing myself by healing others, and then um, you know, taking all this realm of you know, special operations, war on one hand, and then resilience, psychology, and post-traumatic uh stress on the other, and trying to merge that and creating value for people and for organizations in in dealing with this so much stress that is going on in the modern world.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

That makes sense. And um you are uh again Israeli Navy SEAL, and I guess as as groups go, I assume that group is uh known for being tough, almost like heroes. And now with the pandemic, so many healthcare workers have been known to be heroes. I kind of wonder how that reputation or that uh presentation of how Navy SEALs were thought of, how that made it easier or harder, or how that affected you.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

As a young um lieutenant, as a young uh officer, team leader, um, I I lost one of my soldiers and another uh soldier was very, very badly wounded. I actually uh stopped his bleeding from uh his mutilated uh leg. He lost his leg almost the height of his groin. And um it struck me, it really got to me. Um, and then as a young leader, I had to pull the team together and bounce back into normal functioning. And at the time, uh the culture within my unit was that you just don't talk about those things, you just move on. Um, and everyone was supposed to act like an hero, like a hero, um, only that, you know, you you can be the most the strongest, the most masculine, the most, you know, Rambo-ish as you want, but those things actually do have an effect and a bad effect if they're not taken care of. So a few years later, um, when I returned to my unit as the unit psychologist, it was my job to um implement interventions and to change the culture to enable the warriors, you know, those very, very brave and strong and masculine men who are not used to talk. Actually, the uh Israeli Navy SEALs are dubbed the the men of silence. So we had to teach the men of silence to talk with each other. And, you know, when when you talk about your burdens, when you talk about the way that you feel, about what happened, and you know, bad things happen all the time, especially in this line of business, a few things happen. One, it kind of creates order in a very, very chaotic, sometimes chaotic perception of the reality and of what has happened. The second thing is that, you know, when there's a listening ally, someone who has been there with you, who knows what it's all about, you don't have to explain. You just have to kind of you know get it out of you. Um, and you just need to feel that that person is there with you and for you, that lowers stress levels um almost in a in a in a magical way. And so that was probably the most important learning that that I you know was fortunate enough to experience uh 20, 30 years ago. And when I started working with healthcare workers, first in Israel and then in the US, uh, with the federal government, with FEMA and uh with the Urban Area Security Initiative in New Jersey, which is um operates on behalf of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, I tried to implement, and I have implemented, this uh idea of, you know, you don't need to go to talk to a psychologist or a psychiatrist or a social worker. You can talk to each other. And by doing that, one can normalize the the burnout, normalize the feeling, and then start doing something about it uh by not staying alone and thinking that everyone else is just fine, and I'm the only one who is suffering and uh holding it deep inside me without really letting it go. So that's that's where I come from, and that's where I'm going, because I believe that, you know, um we're actually we're talking about the pandemic, we're talking about COVID-19, but there are actually three pandemics, or if you want, if you like, a pandemic by the power of three. Um, back in 2019, the World Healthcare Organizations and the U.S. Surgeon General declared loneliness as an epidemic in the Western world. You know, people are feeling lonely in the presence of others. And you know, think about social media, think about all those likes and all those uh posts. But how how to what extent people can really meet each other and feel together with someone else? That doesn't happen as much as it used to. And then COVID hit, and we had the social distancing and you know, all the stress and the uncertainty and uh the loss of you know loved ones uh you being sick and some of them not surviving the pandemic. And in the last few months, um, it is very, very well documented that a third pandemic, a mental health pandemic, is hitting all around and you know, wreaking havoc on healthcare workers, but also on most of uh the other communities. And so healthcare workers, you know, being in the trenches of COVID-19, um dealing with the occupational and personal stress, and it's not always easy to define, you know, you you do a shift on the COVID floors in a hospital, and then you do you go back home uh when you're afraid to, you know, uh get your loved ones sick because they might, you know, get the virus from you. So how do you deal with that? And and how do you deal with the moral injury of patients dying alone without their loved ones? And so when when many times you don't have, we don't have either the knowledge or the equipment that we need in order to treat them. So um this whole this whole situation of you know dealing with the repercussions of the pandemic and burning out, and and many healthcare workers are leaving the profession or planning to leave the profession, this has a huge economic uh toll, but also the healthcare system is you know on the verge of breaking. And this is where the uh traditional resources, psychotherapy, employee assistance uh programs, critical incidence stress management techniques, all things that I've been doing for decades and that are that can be and usually are very effective, but there's just not enough resources in order to get all the help that is needed in the field. And that is why peer support and this idea of talking to a peer uh about what you feel and what really matters in a in a in an in an environment that is safe and secure and non-judgmental, this is why this is so important and it is important now.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

And with uh healthcare workers, or you describe the uh Israeli Navy SEALs, the men of silence, um one of the challenges in general is how do you get people who need something the most to actually reach out or even accept what's the what's there? And if the culture is uh one of silence or one of heroes, that's a real challenge to even to accept it. What what did you find in your experience either in the military or in healthcare in terms of getting people to accept uh the uh uh a peer support program or uh being involved in a peer support program?

SPEAKER_00 12:21

So the the the there's a few stages in in making that uh difference happen or in changing the culture. Um the first the first stage is um you know the realization that something wrong is happening, is going on, and that I'm dealing with and that I need to do something about it. And um, you know, what what I what I was trained, the way that I was trained and that I trained my soldiers was that, you know, if it hurts, then just bite your lips. If it uh if it's hard, then just work harder. And most people, you know, when when when the environment changes and all of a sudden there's a pandemic and all of a sudden they work more hours and people die around them. So at first, um you just continue and you just do what you were trained to do. You work harder, you work more hours, you don't really give yourself uh, you know, an explanation or I mean there's not always that awareness that something has changed. It's like that frog that is, you know, put in a in a pot uh and the fire is lit and it's slow, it it warms up slowly. It doesn't really, the frog um would not uh uh feel the the water starting to boil, it would just die. Um on the other hand, if you take a frog and and throw it into a pot of boiling water, it would immediately jump out. So most of us are you know in that pot that is slowly heating, and uh, we don't always know that something is wrong until it's it's very, very, very uh bad. So the first thing is raising awareness and the you know, having that understanding that uh one needs to take care uh of him or herself on the organizational level, this whole issue of resiliency, and um I will say uh a few words about that in in a minute, um, of taking the necessary measures before things happen and then during the time, but um you know prepare, just just prepare uh uh the force, prepare the unit, prepare the the Navy SEALs, and prepare the hospital teams because it's like it's like um the medical training, you know, on how to do various procedures. So on the same level, um it's very, very important to prepare uh to times like this. And uh the project that I did with with FEMA in the US, which I called operational stress management, and uh the book by that name came out in 2019, um the the idea is to um take the operational cycle of uh 14-hour shift in a hospital or a 24-hour shift in a firehouse for firefighters or whatever the the operational cycle is, and to dissect it to the various parts, you know, of being on alert or then going on a call with the ambulance or with a fire truck or whatever it is. Um, and then bad things happen on the way. And then what do you do before? What do you do during, what do you do after in order to take care of oneself and of the group? And the idea behind this, you know, most first responders and healthcare workers, that I mean, many of them don't like psychologists, and they don't like to talk about psychology because they perceive themselves rightsfully as very strong and very capable. But the way I explain it and I try to uh convince them that this is uh uh worthwhile is that, you know, when when working in in very stressful conditioning, conditions like you know, entering a burning house or fighting uh on you know for the life of a of a patient in the OR, um stress levels are very, very high. And when stress levels are high, it doesn't just affect us emotionally, it also affects our cognitive uh decision making. And that's when um you know stress-induced mistakes could be fatal, fatal for our the people we serve, or fatal for ourselves and for our buddies. And so the idea is that I teach people, um, you know, first responders, healthcare workers, uh, special forces operation, special operation uh uh, you know, forces, uh soldiers to manage their operational stress so that the oper these the stress won't manage them. So what I try to do is to actually help them not just uh um you know retain and sustain their operational, high operational level, but even make them better at what they do. Because at the end of the day, it's all about operating and doing the right things and making the right decisions in the most extreme uh impossible situations. So um preparation is very important and programs like this um have been out there for years, and I've been doing that. But then, you know, came COVID. And when COVID hit, especially in you know, March, April, May of 2020 in the East Coast and later on in other places in the US, nobody had time for resilience training, for operational stress management training. No one had time for that. No one had time to seek psychotherapy or you know, critical incident uh stress management techniques were not effective because this is not a critical incident. This is an ongoing, prolonged exposure to this uncertainty and the very, very high threat of COVID. And, you know, if if we just kind of think back and remember how it felt during the first weeks when we had no idea what this new virus was all about, it was scary and for a reason. So that's when um I started thinking about what could be a good way to um, you know, find a way uh what would be the right way and the good way to um, you know, avail these resources to healthcare workers during their shifts, during their job, just before or after, but in a way that's gonna be literally be in their pocket, which is through the smartphone. And that's when the idea of Dugri um came along, and uh we've been with my team uh and my co-founders, we have been promoting that ever since.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

So the name of the company is Dugri. Where does that name come from?

SPEAKER_00 18:38

It's interesting, you know. Um it means straight, um, something like straight or straightforward. It was adopted into Arabic during the Ottoman Empire, like a hundred years ago, more than a hundred years ago. And in Arabic, Dugri means um straight, but also the truth, the opposite of a lie. And then it was um um adopted into modern Hebrew slang, with when we say in in Hebrew, when we say Dugri, we mean um straightforward talk, real talk, you know, speak your mind, don't hold back, and sometimes even blunt talk. Um it's it's it's something that um you know Israelis are are notoriously known to be blunt, but also to speak their mind in a good way. And that's what Dugri, that's the meaning of the word. And when we use it in in my company, in Dugri Incorporated, we mean real talk. Saying what on what's on one's mind, sharing the burdens, and then listening compassionately uh on a peer-to-peer at eye-level basis.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

So take me through. What is it, what would the application be? If I got Dugri, how would I use it? What would I see? What's the experience?

SPEAKER_00 19:54

So the um Dugri is uh um is the peer support network that is safe and anonymous. So the first thing we'll talk about, the framework. When you um download the app from the App Store or from Google Play, um, you download, you sign in with a username, and you have an avatar and you stay anonymous. No one knows who you are. You can build your profile. You say that you're a registered nurse or a doctor or uh an x-ray technician or some other uh medical or paramedical uh uh profession, um, what what your time zone, um, you know, a few very, very um basic uh you know traits. And then um you enter the community, which is like uh, you know, uh a moderated forum or like a uh like a social media, other social media outlet, but with with a few very, very distinct uh differences. One, it's anonymous, two, it's safe, no solicitation, no advertising, no trolling. Um, and people share the burdens of being at healthcare workers uh during this very, very difficult, uh, these very very difficult times, and give and receive support from each other, um, and you know, change notes on various issues of coping and resilience, and just feeling that they're not alone. That's kind of the f the the the the the framework. But um in the app we have two more features that uh that are the the the crux or the the the basics of Dugri, which is um uh a one-on-one session that is um moderated by the app itself through a five step protocol. That that is the Dugri protocol is something that I've developed and and have been using for the last 20 years or so, um, which it's a series of five questions or five steps in which I share my story and you, as the listener, who is a peer, just make sure that I answer or relate to those questions. Which are what is the what is the background or what is happening or what has happened? How do I feel about it? My emotions? What troubled me the most? What made the specific incident or the specific time so stressful to me on a personal level? And then how am I handling the situation? You know, coping, positive psychology, what resources do I use, resilience resources do I use in order to cope? And then the fifth question or the fifth step is what is the opportunity that might be embedded in the situation? Because you know, in every crisis there's also an opportunity. And if you know how to recognize that, that's when post-traumatic growth actually starts. So if I share my story using the app, um, I can do it either in a live conversation, like um, you know, an audio conversation, um, like we're doing now in this podcast. But since healthcare workers are so busy and they don't have time for a 20 or 30 minutes uh um, you know, talk with another peer, we also have what we call the Dugree Exchange, which is um like a voice messaging um chat. Again, it's guided by those questions by the app. There's some technology there that helps you go through the protocol and use it. Um, but it's done with voice messages that are being recorded and sent. And so it's asynchronous. We can start it now and finish it tomorrow afternoon, and it still works and it's it's very, very powerful. It's like a walkie-talkie thing, but again, with uh being asynchronous. And so the Dugri Protocol is something that um we have seen to be very, very effective, evidence-based. We um, you know, with 25,000 police uh officers and first responders in Israel, um we've taught them the Dugri Protocol and a few other resilience uh um tools, and we have seen um lower burnout, higher work satisfaction, and a 40% decline in unaccounted-for sick leave days, which is a huge, hugely uh uh strong metric of that shows that this is actually working. So right now we're doing the same with the app. Uh we we um have deployed this in the US and uh healthcare workers, uh hospitals, uh, and other organizations are joining, and um that way they can actually um avail this type of peer support to uh the workers to prevent burnout and and um you know attrition.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

So the concept of a guided discussion with a peer is really interesting. How do you uh match people up in terms of peers? How does that work?

SPEAKER_00 24:43

So we we are currently developing the algorithms to to do that um in the near future when when our um you know when our community grows and we'll have um uh higher diversity, and you know, we we we we are definitely going to get that matching done. Um currently it's being done by um self-selection uh or or selection of each other. If if you go on the app and you want to talk to someone, so you record a message that's saying, you know, uh my uh I'm I'm dealing with the situation, this is what's what's happening, I I need to talk to someone, and then someone else, um, all the community gets it, um, people listen to it, and then um it turns into a one-on-one conversation. So they choose uh each other by uh you know the the highlight of what you want to talk about or the recording of what you just said, and and that's where it starts. Um in the near future, it's gonna get more um, you know, it's gonna the matching is gonna be more professional and and technologically uh it's gonna be more advanced.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

So you described a guided discussion with peers, but earlier you said moderated. Is it also moderated in some way?

SPEAKER_00 25:56

So one of the um things that make Dugree different from other um, you know, self-help or or healthcare apps is that we do not have human moderators in the sense that there's no psychologist, social worker, or other group facilitator. This is it happens between the peers and the moderation is being done by the app.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Got it. Okay. Excellent. And so um is it being used by organizations or is it individuals signing up for one at a time? How does it work?

SPEAKER_00 26:29

So we we um we we are uh working with organizations because we believe that um you know, for hospital administration who want to um you know make sure that they don't lose people for um burnout and people who leave the profession or God forbid, you know, uh mental health issues and suicide. Um so we we work with hospitals, we work with uh large healthcare organizations and insurance companies. We um we plan to launch uh like a business to consumer um you know that people would be able to buy it on the app store. Uh actually right now, uh every anyone can can join and um and and please join, join and and and you know, join our community. Um right now it's available because of the situation. We want to help. We want to be relevant in these very, very uh trying times and help uh America's healthcare workers not just survive this pandemic, but also thrive and get on the other end of COVID stronger and more capable. And that's our um you know contribution right now. So just go to the app store, download Dugri for healthcare workers, and um and join the community. Uh, we're also working with um um with other organizations. We're serving uh U.S. military veterans uh who are now you know dealing with the Afghanistan uh pullout uh that for many of them reactivated scenes from Saigon, scenes from the Gulf, from other places. It's um it's it's bad. And so we we are also doing that uh because we believe it's very, very important and uh we're expanding. So um, yes, hospitals, uh FEMA, and and um uh large healthcare organizations.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

And it sounds like when you say peers, you have dewry for healthcare, you have degree for police, you have different peer networks set up so that the peers at least would be within the same field. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Yes. So um we have uh different communities. Uh we have a community of healthcare workers, we have a community of veterans, and we we are uh expanding uh and plan to working and planning to expand to uh first responders, firefighters, police, and others. Um the the beautiful thing about Dugri is that, you know, we're as human beings, we are actually wired to need what we call emotional storytelling, to share what we feel with other people in a form of a story. And that's what Dugri actually uh enables. We are wired to not just um be there for another person when we are listening in a compassionate way, but it actually activates what we call compassion circuits in the brain of the listener, and that uh uh that is hugely um you know helpful for that person in terms of lowering stress levels. So, you know, it's like two people, one is sharing, the other is listening, and then they switch roles because it's it's mutual and reciprocal, and and both of them actually uh uh you know derive a huge value from this um you know from this uh uh session. And so the um the the idea is that in any community, people need to talk. Um and so we see this as growing to many other communities um, you know, in the US and beyond.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

So within a given community, again, I'm the one I'm most interested in the moment is healthcare. When this gets rolled out in a hospital, how many of the people who need it actually use it? Do you have a sense of what the uptake of the application is?

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Yes, so there's two things that um that must be said here. One, um, people love the idea. Um sometimes it takes a little while to kind of get to get it in in the sense of um one feeling that this is safe, the anonymity and this you know, very, very uh facilitating environment, non-judgmental, and uh no one calls you a sissy if you're uh you know, if if if you need help, because we're all in this together and and the boat is rocking and and we need each other. So one is getting used to that. The second is to um you know learn and and experience the Dugri protocol. Um, and and it's like magic because usually the first time, you know, after the first conversation, people say, Wow, you know, I I didn't think that I would it would feel this way. And you know, when you think about it, you know, some sometimes it happens on a on a flight, on a plane, you sit near someone who you don't know, you start talking about things, and you know, there's a two or three or four hour uh flights, depends from where to where. Um, things get sometimes get very personal, and then you, you know, you you um you you disembark and you then never see each other again, and you stay with that that very, very strong feeling. And sometimes it happened with it happens with a close friend. But you know, in modern times, rarely do we have these uh candid conversations, these doogle conversations, and and so people experience it and then they kind of get into it and they start doing it. And some people can do it, you know, twice a week, others can do it uh twice a day or or twice a month. And and um what I've learned um most recently is that you know sometimes um you have a headache, okay? Um, and you need um some kind of a you know, some kind of uh ibupropen or some kind of a painkiller to to to get it uh to feel better. So one way is to find that pill and take it, but sometimes just holding something in your pocket, you know, like or in your bag, um you have uh the pills or you have something, that feeling that you have something, that if you would need it, it would be available is hugely reassuring. And so dogree is not just about, you know, I need it now, so I'm gonna use it now. Yes, that too, but also that sense of belonging to a caring community and that knowing that um when, if and when I'm gonna need to talk with someone, with a caring ally, I'm gonna find them. I'm gonna find them very, very easily. And again, you know, it's in my pocket in my in my smartphone. And then, you know, um some people find it easier and more, you know, uh beneficial for them to help others and to to be the listener. Other people need to be listened to. I think most people could enjoy and do enjoy both, but it's it's very personal. And um, you know, frankly, whatever works for users, um it's good, it's good with me, and I think it's good for the cause that we're uh uh you know we're we're operating to meet, you know, with in terms of the solution to this problem and to this challenge. So um people are using it, they're using it, you know, to varying degrees, and um and and and we are still learning because the the company was was founded uh you know the middle of last year, and we're developing the product and developing and learning on the go. So um, you know, if if if we'll have a catch-up uh conversation a year from now, I'll I'll probably tell you um, you know, uh new stories about what happened uh or in in Dew Gree.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

So your ideas about uh peer discussions, is that covered in your book, Operational Stress Management, or is that also covered as well? You have another book, A Time to Kill, A Time to Heal, um, where you talk as well. Could you tell me about the two books and uh what's what's covered in both?

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Yeah, so um operational stress management, uh, an innovative uh um system for resilience training for first responders, uh, came out, I think, two years ago, uh, a little more than two years ago. And the idea was to take the model that I've developed working with uh the Federal Emergency Management Agency in the US, um, the operational stress management model, and again to to talk about um the the the um the the pillars of what it takes to prepare first responders, healthcare workers towards a catastrophe. That was before COVID, okay? So um it's more on an idea on the the idea level of what it what it is. It's not a it's not a protocol or a manual, it's more, it talks about the the um how I perceive this uh model and and what should be done and why it's so important to prepare before things happen. Um it's more of like a professional book, um, it's not meant for a lay reader. Um people could find it interesting, but that's that's one thing. The second book, which came out um late 2020, uh early 2021, this year, um, is called A Time to Kill, a Time to Heal in Israeli Navy SEAL's journey. And that is my own autobiography, um, you know, my story for growing up as a kid in Israel, uh, you know, uh surviving a terrorist attack, becoming a Navy SEAL, and then a psychologist, with things that I've learned along the way. And the last chapter um in the book, which was actually written during the first weeks of COVID, um has, you know, uh that's where I talk about this idea of peer support as uh as a solution and about Dugri, because that's when we founded the company. And uh and so some of these ideas could be find could be found in that book.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Wonderful. Well, we've uh uh approached our half hour mark. I want to know if you have any uh closing thoughts or reflections you'd like to share with the audience.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

Yes, I think just maybe one um kind of thought that um it's in the back of my mind uh during during our conversation, and that is again the the notion of uh post-traumatic growth. And you know, what we know from research is one, that people who get traumatized and suffer PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, can also grow psychologically and have or enjoy what we call post-traumatic growth, positive psychological development. The second thing is that we know from research that what mediates and enables post-traumatic growth is a sense of meaning and purpose. In my work, in my job, in my journey uh from you know, from uh killing to healing, if if I may. Um, and by the way, that's not mine, that's from uh the Bible. Uh you know, turn, turn, turn, a time to um kill and a time to heal. Um that idea has been central in my work, and that idea I think is very, very relevant to our listeners because these are trying times. We are dealing with uncertainty, we are dealing with an uh, you know, uh an ongoing crisis. We always need to connect to the meaning and purpose of what we're doing, saving people's lives, uh, you know, understanding COVID and then finding ways to treat it and doing the same for ourselves in order to make sure that our wellness and our ability to help others uh uh remains and even strengthens. And I think that is the opportunity in this uh uh crisis situation, ongoing crisis. And I hope that everyone who listens to this podcast will take that uh um thought and that idea and look for that opportunity to grow.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

Well, thank you very much. And with that, I want to thank you for joining us today and uh sharing your thoughts and experiences with the audience. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

Thank you. Thank you, Michael.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

Well, that's our show for today. I want to thank Yotam Dagon for joining us today and for sharing both his insights and personal stories. You can contact Yotum at Yotum at dubity.us. That's y-o-t-a-m at d-u-g-i.us. If you wish to learn more about the coalition, please visit our website at www.forphysicianwellbeing.org. You can also check us out on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook. I also want to thank our volunteers and the staff of the coalition who made this podcast possible. Finally, I'd like to thank Assesis, ACE SIS Incorporated, for sponsoring my time working on this podcast. The views and opinions express this podcast are those of the host and his guests, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the coalition's physician well being, its board, or other members of the coalition. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Brown, wishing our caregivers out there, meaning, purpose, and joy is a practice of medicine. Together we are streaming. Until next time.