The Hanger Z podcast welcomes Tamar Nolden. Unfortunately, a lot of times it's we want to highlight every unit, every team. We have motors, we have SROs, we have detectives. And I'm sitting here going, okay, guys, so does everybody else. And I call them yearbook videos because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by focusing on one person over the other. You know, and then I sit there and I go, Do you want my opinion? Focus on what makes you different. Focus on storytelling. Focus on things that people are gonna connect with that makes your agency stand out. Everybody has those things. I mean, those are a given, but that's not why somebody would pick your organization. They're gonna pick your organization because they're gonna see themselves there. Throughout the history of the Hangers Eat Podcast, I've talked a lot about the importance of social media as a way to promote internally and externally your aviation unit. So in this comprehensive two-part series, Jack Shaley and I are joined by Tamarin Olden, founder of Talk Public Relations, to discuss why social media has become a mission critical tool for modern public safety. Moving beyond the ancillary duty mindset, Tamron explains how strategic digital presence is the foundation for community trust, transparency, and successful recruitment. Throughout this episode, we've dive deep into the friction between traditional law enforcement leadership and the fast-paced digital world, exploring how to overcome the paralysis by analysis that often keeps agencies silent. Tamron breaks down the difference between vanity metrics, like viral dance videos, and value-driven content that authentically showcases the expertise and humanity of an apartment. Whether you're a social media manager, a unit leader, or a command staff member, this episode provides a tactical starter pack for building a professional, effective, and transparent communication strategy involving social media. Thanks to our sponsors Shot Over, Quantum Helicopters, and Precision Aviation Group. Welcome to the Hanger Z Podcast, brought to you by Vertical Helicast. The Hanger Z Podcast is the first and only podcast dedicated to promoting and exploring the personnel and equipment behind the missions in public safety aviation. So Southbound's getting to a stop stand by here. Looks like you're getting ready to bail. Heads up, guys, bailing. Okay, the guy, he's running through the house, jumping the fence, through the shotgun, through something out, grabbing the shotgun. Don't go over that fence. Don't go over that fence. Grab the shotgun again. If he is armed, stay there. Hold your position. Hey, welcome to the Hang Z podcast. I'm your host, John Gray. I've stolen the mic away from the Commander Jack Shanley for today's recording. Uh really honored to have this conversation. Before we introduce today's topic and today's guest, gotta say good morning to Commander Jack Shanley. How are you doing, sir? I'm doing good, John. Commander of nothing is doing just fine. Uh coming to us from the new command center in Idaho. How's uh life in Idaho treating you? Awesome. Back to America. Yeah, it's great. Uh the office has come together, the background's coming together, and uh I'm just very, very happy and very grateful. Cool. Well, as always, honored to have you here. Today's conversation's uh conversation that we've been talking about and having for uh the the the total the total duration of of the Hanger Z podcast. We've talked about uh the importance of internal and external marketing through social media, public relations for a long time. And I feel like uh it's about time that we brought someone who actually knows what they're talking about when it comes to PR and social media and and all the things that surround that onto the podcast. Um today's guest is someone I had the pleasure of working with when I was at Ontario PD uh doing graffiti and gang investigations. Uh Taryn Olden is today's guest. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much. Good to see you virtually. I know it's been a long time, so I appreciate the opportunity and good to catch up. Yeah, it's been a long time and gosh, it's it's cool. In some ways, it seems like it was just yesterday, but in other ways, you know, a lot's transpired uh since we had the opportunity to work together last. Uh, biggest of which for for you is you know leaving the police department and the foundation of your new business. So let's start by talking about that. Uh talk about that move away from government work and to what you're doing now. So I was neighbors with you over at Chino PD when you were at Ontario. I did their community relations, public relations, PIO, social media, all other duties as assigned. Um, and did that, started out on the city side, hopped over to the PD side, and I was trying to do the math to figure out how long and like, oh my gosh, it makes me feel so old. But I started over on the city side in 2003. So been doing it for quite some time and kind of fell into the position. It wasn't what you know I intended to do for my career. But once I kind of saw the, I mean, the need, the huge need for organizations, uh, public safety agencies to just do a better job communicating, highlighting what they do, connecting with the community in different ways. I thought, you know what, I I really enjoy doing this and just dove deep into it. There was no training really at the time. Um, a few classes here and there, but not anything that was up to par with, you know, where organizations needed to be. So I kind of learned on my own and, you know, sought out some mentors in the space, started doing it as a side business. You know, a lot of people in law enforcement have their little side hustles while they're working at their departments. So started doing it on the side, teaching, and then expanded from there into digital marketing and consulting and communications, crisis comms, and said, you know what, I want to go all in. And uh definitely a scary decision. I know a lot of you guys can relate to that, uh, but one of the best decisions I ever made. So now I'm able to work with agencies all over the United States and help them do a better job communicating and connecting with their uh community. And what's cool about that, one, obviously creating your own business and being successful in that and that's huge. But you know, to refine your craft, uh, and we've found the same thing on the podcast, when you when you talk to people from all over the country and all over the world, you kind of get to take the the best pieces of all the things that you find through the agencies and the individuals you talk to, and then promote that with the the other agencies you meet with. And the longer you do it, the the more nuggets you find that you can share. So really cool that you've had the opportunity to refine your craft, to grow in your profession, and and now lead the industry uh through through your company. Um so yeah, that it's like I said, the same thing on the podcast side. You know, we've we've had the opportunity to talk to a lot of people and a lot of the things that we thought were unique problems to either our agency or maybe our region or even our country, uh we've we've found is problematic worldwide and in leadership's a big part of that, right? We I think thought that the leadership issue was somehow a cultural issue that was specific to the US, but right, Jack, as we found out, it's it's worldwide. It's everywhere. It's everywhere, it's just with a different accent, that's all. The same complaints, the same issues, the same uh lack of leadership. Uh we we see it. And and I I think you're right. This topic is identical as well. We we've heard talk to people in Europe, Australia, and Canada, and all across the United States about this topic we're gonna talk about with Tamarin, and the same thing, the same issues come up, you know, where oh yeah, we don't we don't do that very well, or or we don't do it at all, or we we just started doing it, we're seeing great success. You know, we hear the same things on this topic as well. So yeah, it's law enforcement's law enforcement. Like I said, just different accent, different phrases, different equipment, but the same issues, same problems, same challenges uh exist. That's funny you say that because I actually start out one of my classes when I do my social media academy, and we talk about have an open discussion of what are your biggest pain points, challenges, frustrations in this space. And I always, you know, have to say it usually has to do with the stars and bars. I mean, it's not, you know, oh, I don't know how to edit photos or video or the technical side of it. It's not, hey, I have to put in a lot of hours or get called in. It's the hiccups and the hurdles and the lack of buy-in support um and the frustration with with leadership. So, like you said, it's it's consistent across the board no matter what the topic is. We we deal with it, you know, when it comes to communications as well. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's that doesn't surprise me at all, Tamara, that you hear the same thing over and over no matter where you go. Uh it's it's just the way it is. It's just the way it is. And the fact that leadership is part of the problem. That's a very common thread, you know, that we've heard on a lot of topics, but certainly this one. I always thought it was interesting they trust us with, you know, a firearm, uh a vehicle, and in our case, a helicopter, but they won't trust us with social media. And I know there's a lot of reasons and there's a lot of things that go into that, but it always blew my mind that there's so much trust given to us to make life and death decisions outside of the social media world, but when it comes to social media, it's like, nope, we're not gonna do any of that. So I think that is starting to change. And I'm curious from your perspective, um, kind of jumping out of order here, but you know, when you look at the the age range of folks that utilize social media as a as a tool for information gathering, for dissemination of information, for all the things that we use social media for, uh, do you see as as the younger generation moves into those positions of leadership, there's more of an open acceptance of social media as that tool, or or is it um kind of specific to you know some of the I guess questions and issues that the leadership faces as it results relates to you know city council and some of the other uh issues that surround that? So that's a a great point and a great topic. And I think that as the younger generations start to move up into leadership positions, there is a greater understanding for a need for it. I always say usually the people at the top uh didn't grow up per se in the social media world where you know social media now is a first language, it's the first thing you look at when you wake up. It's what influences where you eat, where you vacation, what you think, politics, shopping. I mean, literally your entire world is dictated based on social media. So when you have people who are the decision makers who didn't grow up with that, who might not rely on social media as a daily resource as much, it's hard. Um, and now you're starting to see that evolve. You're starting to see I've had the opportunity to go in and teach at supervisor schools or supervisor courses where they're now implementing that. You're seeing in command college and a lot of a lot more trainings geared toward management and command staff level personnel, they're incorporating this, which is great because you know they don't know what they don't know. You don't learn this in the academy. This isn't something that they, you know, have degrees in. Yet it's so important and so mission critical because it touches every single aspect of the organization. So you're seeing us evolve, but again, we're always still behind the curve. We're, you know, it's we're making gradual progress, but we're 10 years behind. So we're we're getting there, some agencies quicker than others, but I think the general understanding that it's important, we're definitely getting there for sure. Yeah. Yeah, look at some agencies like Riverside PD. They were really far in front of the game as far as I'm concerned, years ago when it comes to social media and the promotion of air support in general. Uh Jeff ran their social media page and did some really good stuff with it. And it was all positive. And I think that's some of the fear is you know the release of something that could look bad on the on the agency, uh, especially as it relates to a criminal investigation or something. But uh the agencies that seem seemingly have figured out the recipe, the positive promotion of the agency, the missions, the things that they're doing, I think that's critical. So I'll be interested to dive into that with you as we go. But before we go too much further, uh let's let's learn a little more about you. Talk about your influence to to get into law enforcement and kind of where you grew up and and how you found yourself at Chino PD to start with. So I actually fell into the position by accident. Um, I my my goal, I actually have a degree in psychology, which I mean you can apply it in some aspects or a lot of aspects, actually. I think it's a lot. So I actually wanted to do forensic psychology. And I'd always been kind of a crime junkie nerd and fascinated with uh the psychological aspect of crime. Um so that was my goal. And while I was in college, I was looking for just a good, you know, um part-time job to get me by. And I found a part-time position on the city side, worked with my schedule part-time, and then an opportunity came up for a promotion to you know take on greater responsibilities and overseeing a bunch of programs. And then eight months later, a full-time supervisor spot came open and I kind of got on a fast track and started really liking it and was at a crossroads of shoot, I have this degree that I was working toward. And uh, you know, what do I do? And so, you know, I mean, I don't call it a coincidence, but a position came open at the PD and doing community relations and community outreach. And I thought, you know what, it if anything, it's a foot in the door to start working in the law enforcement space. And I took the opportunity and never looked back. I just really dove deep into it. It was something that I didn't know a lot about, but was very interested in, and like I said earlier, just saw a need for it. So I ended up staying and was very grateful to be able to have the opportunity as a supervisor to grow the program, the unit. We didn't have a social media team. Our PIO was the IA lieutenant who hated doing it, and uh, you know, and always on a reactive, not a proactive basis. So the chief just said, hey, uh, you know, you have the skill set and experience to do this. The lieutenant doesn't want to do it. We need to do a better job. So I was gifted the PIO social media manager role on top of the public relations and outreach stuff that I was already doing. And, you know, I had the opportunity to create the program, which was great because I learned it, you know, literally from the ground up. It's not something that I had aspirations to do. It's not something that I had a background in or education in. And um learning as I went along uh was challenging, but it also allowed me to have a deeper understanding of what it was about. Yeah, I think, you know, given both where we were in our careers and in time, uh social media was really developing in that time and and where you you were like there was no in training at that point, right? To say, hey, this is how you do it. Like you just had to figure it out. And same thing for me. You know, I'm I'm trying to figure out how to make this stuff all work as as we go, kind of building the airplane as we fly it, type type thing. But talk about talk about the the creation of your social media strategy at Chino and kind of what you did there with that. Thank you to our sponsor, Quantum Helicopters. For over two decades, Phoenix PD, Maricopa County Sheriff's Office, Mesa PD, and the Pennell County Sheriff's Office in Arizona have trusted quantum helicopters for primary flight training. We've helped boost their efficiency, cut costs, delivered unmatched quality, and keep them focused on public safety. Don't just take our word for it. Reach out and see how we can deliver the same results for your agency. Visit QuantumHelicopters.com to learn more. So it was um not easy, met with a lot of challenges from leadership, as you can imagine. And I I remember when I left and I had a meeting with the uh one of the command staff members, not kind of an excellent interview, but not really. And um, you know, with two of them, one of them said earlier on when I was, you know, looking to leave, just said, you're always pushing the envelope. You're you're always pushing, pushing, pushing to do more, to be better, to grow, to try this, to try that. And he was always more conservative with his decision making. I always like, you know, using the term a lot of times with when it comes to admin paralysis by analysis. It's, you know, you sit there and overanalyze, and what if we get negative comments? What if there's pushback? What if that? And, you know, and I pushed back and I said, Well, I've been doing this for quite some time. I had already had my business at the time. And I said, well, if you don't have someone in this position that's wanting to push the envelope in the right direction and push you to do more and to get ahead, then it's the wrong person because this is changing daily. Social media and media changes daily. These situations are dynamic. You cannot take a mold like a traditional marketing company and apply it to public safety. It's something that in one situation this might work, and in another situation the next day, it's not going to work. So you need someone who's willing to push you. And that's what's hard. You know, I had a conversation with someone where they talked about one of the challenges is, you know, for lack of a better term, supervising up, where you're telling the bosses or their chief, no, we need to get ahead of it. We can't say no comment. This is what we need to say, and we need to do it now. And that's a very, very difficult situation to be in. And I was a civilian manager. So even more so in the public safety space, sitting in a room full of command staff and you know, asking the chief to do something that maybe most people in the room didn't support was really, really hard. So getting that buy-in, getting the support and pushing the envelope constantly. And, you know, I said, give me an example of where I've pushed us to do something and it's backfired or gone wrong. I said, you can't. You can't. So, and I said, and also other agencies are paying me to do things that you're pushing back on me doing here. So you have someone who has the interest, the passion, the skill set, the knowledge, and you're not using it. And, you know, and then the other supervisor that I had met with as well, he just said, you know what, you're just too far ahead. We weren't ready to have someone like you that was just so far ahead. And it's hard because it's little changes over time and it's something they're super uncomfortable with. And I was, you know, at the time, let's go full force. And they were wanting to pump the brakes. So I think it was just a matter of timing that I was just a little bit ahead of the time. And now I'm seeing, you know, Chino does a great job. They're one of the agencies that put out uh body worn camera footage, their community relations, obviously. They've, you know, they've kept that up and done a great job with it. And now they have a better understanding of, okay, this is what she was trying to do the whole time. We just weren't there yet. So it was a lot of difficult conversations. And that is the biggest challenge is pushing back and not settling and stopping. And we we talked about with their the development of their air support unit that it takes someone, you know, they've been talking about that for 15 years, pushing, pushing, pushing, not accepting no, and just justifying the need for something over and over and over again and not willing to give up. And, you know, not everybody's willing to do that. Yeah, there's so much to to unpack there. Uh yeah. One of which is any good leader, you know, what they know they've got a good, a good uh project on on deck isn't gonna take no for an answer. They're gonna keep that that project at the top of the the file and they're gonna resubmit that every opportunity they get to until they get a yes. But to the point of paralysis through analysis, gosh, that's I think every law enforcement agency in in the world, you know. The what-ifs, you can what-if yourself to till you're blue in the face, and at the end of the day, nothing's taking place, you're just blue in the face, you know. And what and what ifs are good in many ways. I mean, we all we sell that all the time tactically. I've said that a thousand times about tactical flight officers, for instance. You should be the what-if person. You better you where you go, okay, what if this happens? Am I prepared for that? What if that happens? Am I prepared for that? What if you know what ifs are good until they get to the point where Tamron's talking about it where it's it's uh it's pro causing you to do nothing. I mean, what ifs are are great for for um thinking ahead, having foresight. I think I think lack of foresight's one of the the worst things in police departments. They have no foresight. You know, uh I give examples all the time from LA, you know, the the rifles, you know, rifles. We didn't have rifles until after the North Hollywood shootout. Oh, and then they suddenly appeared. Hmm. That's called zero foresight, you know. So law enforcement's famous for that, but I I love that you brought that up, that the what ifs can cause you to do absolutely nothing. And then you get comfortable there. Did you find that to be true that what they were? Oh, we're we're fine, we're comfortable. And that that's one of the reasons they didn't like that what if? Yeah, absolutely. And you know, like you said, every agency, it's this it's the same leadership challenges and accepting it's okay, we don't need to do that, or we're fine with doing the minimum. We're willing to take the risk of not doing anything, which is to me crazy, right? What's the worst thing? You know, like you said, you run the scenarios through your head. Okay, what if we get some negativity? Okay, this is how we're gonna handle that. What if the media does this? Okay, this is how we're gonna handle that. But just being okay with not doing anything is, you know, to me, not the way that I work. It's you know, hey, let's let's go. And you know what? As long as you stay within these barriers, we don't go rogue, uh, we're administratively and you know, maybe thinking smart when it comes to legal aspects and liability, stay within this lane. And if we need to make some adjustments next time, let's make them. Outside of some egregious mistake, I mean, you gotta try things. And isn't that even on the tactical side? You go in, you brief, you plan, and then you debrief after and go, hey, you know, we need to train on this, we need to adjust this, we need to, you know, review policy. I mean, that's how policy revisions come out. That's where training comes from. It's always evolving instead of just settling for, okay, well, we'll just do the minimum, or I don't want to push the envelope. You just proved to me, John, and all of our listeners that you were immersed in in the profession and that you understood it because what you just said was about was exactly what I was just about to say. That I mean, uh about the tactical side and and training and debriefing. And yeah, there are gonna be mistakes. If you're worried about every mistake, the only way to avoid that is to do absolutely nothing and stay home in bed, you know, and don't even get out of bed and go to work because you're gonna make mistakes. As an individual, we we all made mistakes. As an organization, we all make mistakes. I'm sure that you have regrets of things that you suggest when that might have been not have been the might not have been the best time for that. We all do it, but you learn from it and you deep. You said the word debrief, you know. Uh I love that. It's it's so perfect. I I real quick, was there one particular thing and I one particular worry or concern that came up over and over? I mean, you mentioned we don't want negative something negative. I but specifically, was there something that was that people were pointing out to you that worried them consistently? So on the PD admin command staff side, uh a lot of the old school mentality of we're gonna compromise the investigation, or if we put information out, it's gonna hinder or compromise investigation or officer safety, uh, which obviously is something that is so important and we want to make sure that we don't do. But it was kind of a blanketed response to why they didn't want to support social media and media initiatives and communications, because everything's gonna compromise. If you post something, if you talk to the media, and that's not the way it works. Now, on the higher level city side, and it's it's funny because I talked to a lot of agencies uh that deal with this, they don't want this perception of their city being unsafe or having high crime. Uh, so they're wanting to, you know, we call it the rainbows and unicorns, right? So I actually went to an Orange County PIO meeting and talked to several people. And there's a lot of cities in Orange County that want to protect because people come, you know, there's big businesses, there's major, you know, amusement parks and attractions, there's people that come visit. So it affects, you know, people who are coming and visiting and vacationing here. And so they're very big on, well, we don't want to post about that because we don't want people to think and you know, know about all the crime, which to me is just absurd because you're not educating your community. And that doesn't stop them from posting it on next door, posting it on their own. And then now you have misinformation circulating instead of it coming directly from the source. So on the political city county side, I would say is definitely has to do with public perception and then investigative stuff when it comes to internal on the public safety side. Interesting. Interesting. And like you said, it's like people are gonna find out. And and if they find out through other sources, then they go, oh, look at that. The cops are hiding stuff. They're hiding all this from us, they're not being transparent. The city's not being transparent. People know the safest cities in America have crime. There's no, you know what I mean? It's uh it's you can't it's just reality. So why not be transparent about it? I mean, Washington DC is going through this right now where they were cooking the books on crime stats for years. They've been accused of that. Well, they caught people now. I mean, they've got evidence that they're presenting. Why not just tell the truth? You know, it's it might be ugly, but then you just tell the truth and just say, and this is how we're working on it. We know about that, and this is what we're gonna do to change it and make it better instead of saying everything's great. When when the reality is people that were visiting and people that lived there knew the truth, absolutely knew the truth. And now your department has a stain or your and your city is tainted because you wanted to make it look better than the reality. I I boy, oh boy, this is so this is so good already. So re so reality based, you know, we're in the real world, and it it sounds to me, Tamara, that you that was what you were trying to do. Hey, this is the real world, and I want you to I want what's best for all of you, but we gotta we gotta talk about these things in a certain way, but we gotta talk about them. Uh that that's great. You're reading my mind again, Jack. Ah, good, finally. You know, we go back to the idea of kind of controlling the narrative, getting in front of the information that that's out there. I think of myself as a citizen, uh, next door is a great example, you know, through through social media, information spread you know via via Nextdoor or any of those other uh community programs. Again, uh talking about crime that exists in our community. And if the law if law enforcement's not getting in front of that and saying, hey, this is our plan, we know this exists, this is what we're doing. The assumption for me as a citizen is there's nothing being done to address the issues that I that I think exist or know exist. So I think it's it's incumbent upon law enforcement to get in front of that, say this is what we're doing. And I'll tie this back into our conversation with Mike Durant. One of one of the things he talked about uh was you know from a PR standpoint, if you're in a situation where you're asked something and you're sticking your head in your s in the sand, the only thing that's left is that's exposed is your rear end, you know. I thought that was a great kind of a great quote from him. Uh is not a strategy, you know. So then I'll kind of pivot to you a little bit, Taryn. Uh, from the PR standpoint, you know, social media is kind of tied into that. Um, talk about the importance from a PR standpoint of getting in front of the narrative, whether it's you know a rash of crime that's ongoing or one major incident. Talk about your perspective on that a little bit. So one of the biggest things that agencies I would say strive for or that is so important is trust, right? And you know, building trust through transparency is a huge thing that agencies just tend to not do a good job with. They want people to support law enforcement, to support maybe it's a tax initiative to give, you know, uh raises or buy equipment. They want the community to support them maybe during a critical incident that, you know, from public perspective may not have gone, not be as clean as you would want, whether you know, truth or not. Um so we want these transactions, we want something from the community, but you have to build that first. You have to get the trust before the transaction. So if I'm gonna ask you to do something, support me, participate in our event, uh, support an initiative that's on the ballot, I have to give that trust first. And most people don't interact on a day-to-day basis with people from your department. So the number one way that they're gonna form their perspective, their opinion of you is a lot of times through social media. It or or maybe if you're a larger agency that's in the news a lot, the media as well. So by you controlling the narrative, by you building trust through transparency, getting ahead of things, even when it's not clean and might not be, you know, the best story that you want to tell, maybe it's an issue with personnel. Maybe it's, I mean, it happens, a misconduct issue, a use of force that didn't go well. And now there's a video circulating online from a bystander who posted it. I mean, those are things that if you do not handle well, which we have seen, I have seen with numerous agencies, they have a PR disaster that now is affecting their community, their entire department, and their recruitment, which is huge. So you have these incidents that are not handled well. If every agency is hiring within 20 mile radius, why am I gonna pick your agency when I see that you don't have a good relationship with the community, there's no trust, there's no transparency, you're all over the news for negativity, and you guys sit there silent. So it affects so many things. The, you know, how much the community is gonna support you, the recruitment aspect of it. And, you know, I just did a webinar a couple weeks ago on crisis communications and how so many large-scale incidents that happen, mass shootings, mass disasters, when they do their reports and their after-action reports, one of the biggest things that they look at that was a failure by the department is their communications. Um, and that directly correlates with how the public perceives them and the trust that they have. Thank you to our sponsor, Precision Aviation Group. 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The reason I bring it up is because I felt like the sheriff as the head of the agency did a good job of getting in front of that and saying, hey, you know what, this is uh unbecoming of the agency. It was a mistake, and this is what we're doing to rectify rectify the situation, instead of hiding behind it and pretending like nothing exists, because we all know that it was on channel whatever for everyone to see, and it was spreading via TV, social media, and every other uh form of communication that exists. So it's so important to control that stuff to do damage control. But I also think it's important to promote the good stuff the agencies are doing. You know, we talk about uh the body worn uh footage. You know, I've I've seen agencies that that promote uh life-saving situations or even uh the the detention of a criminal who's doing something that they shouldn't have been doing. You know, I think promoting those things in a positive way, I think it is really good for the community to see. So before we get too down too far down the rabbit hole that we're going down, uh let's step back just for a minute. I want to talk about your your company and then talk about social media broadly as a tool. So first tell us about uh talk public relations, what you've done uh with the creation of that business and what your kind of mission set is. So one of our primary things that we do is training consulting for social media. So we all know that it's needed, we know that agencies, you know, generally speaking, public safety, police fire, and even on the union side, because we started seeing that there was a need for unions to have a voice when it comes to social media as well. Um we do training, we do consulting. Um in some instances, we even assist with managing social media more on the on the union side. Uh if you know they don't they're they don't have support staff to be able to do that. Um we'll even help create content, photography, videography, mostly recruitment focused, or if there's a department awards ceremony or special project. So just basically teaching agencies how to do a better job, what the latest and greatest trends are as far as not only creating the content, but looking at other things from the legal aspect, what you can and can't post, uh, when it comes to even looking at, you know, First Amendment, uh, looking at how, you know, censorship of people, social media policies, you know, uh, if you're gonna remove content or comments or block somebody, what that looks like, how do you get buying-in support from admin and taking from the hands-on aspect to the administrative side of it so that way when people come to the social media academy, they come to the trainings, they can go back and go, okay, I understand how to do it, I have the tools to do it, because a lot of times it's a police officer doing it on an ancillary assignment basis that has no background or experience, and they were voluntold to do it. And now you're putting the agency's reputation essentially in this person's hands with no experience and no training. So um just equipping them and giving them the confidence and a resource to be able to go, hey, you know what, this works, this doesn't work. Okay, I need to go back. And the way that I've been doing things is not gonna get engagement, it's not gonna get reach. Um, how do I do things better? So it's hands-on, um, but we also have a lot of the conversations of a lot, I feel like um my psychology degree comes great. I do a lot of counseling when they're complaining about their admin and how they've been told no, and it's frustrating. So um, and it's nice to all be in the same room going, oh my gosh, I thought it was just me, right? Like we talked about just a little bit ago, where they understand, okay, everybody's in the same boat. Uh, we're all dealing with the same challenges. Or someone says, Hey, I dealt with that, but this is how I navigated that, or hey, here's a tool that I have that's worked for me uh that's easy for you to use. And just sharing that information and the networking too is so valuable. So we do social media academy, we do a PIO course, more focused on the media side, and then we do uh content creation, so photography and videography. Uh, and then one of the classes that we introduced that we got asked as a result of frustration with leadership is a social media for admin class, where we're not necessarily going over, you know, how do you do a post? It's why we need to do it and how do you support your staff that's doing it so that way you can be successful and how do you navigate messaging? And it's okay to post body worn camera footage within these certain parameters, um, and giving them the tools to go and support people in these positions is another class that's been uh very well received and has helped a lot of the uh social media managers do their job better. Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest obstacles that most agencies face in the creation of a social media program is convincing admin that it's something that's it's needed, right? Uh without giving too much away from your class, talk about that a little bit. Some of the some of the points that you would you would advise for, let's in this case, say an aviation program wants to start a social media program promoting positively what their aviation unit does, and their command staff is saying, tell me why and no. So I would say always start with you know baby steps. So maybe you don't start with your own program and pages and accounts, but you start leveraging and partnering with the main department accounts. Start giving them content so that way you could go, hey, look, we've done 10 posts in the last six months, and we're some of the highest engagement posts on our main page. Look at the feedback that we're getting, look at the support, look at the reach, look at how many comments we're getting. And that way you can start kind of teasing the content. Also show what other agencies are doing. I can't tell you how many times my position doing social media, actually, the conversation with the chief when I was voluntole to do it came from him coming back from a Cal Chiefs regional meeting, and everybody's doing it, and everyone's talking about it, and they're like, oh crap, we need we're not doing it. We're behind everybody else is doing it. So if we say, hey, look, here's an example. This agency you mentioned, Riverside or you know, maybe SBSO, another department, this is what they're doing, and they've been successful. I actually reached out to their social media manager and they said that this is how they do it and how it works. So doing your homework instead of just saying, hey, I want to do our own page, I've tried it out, I've seen who's doing it and what works and what doesn't. And I've looked into training opportunities so that I know what to not what to do and what not to do so that way I can protect our organization and not get them in a situation where we're getting complaints or negativity or you know, legal concerns. So treat it as any other thing you're trying to pitch. If you want to buy a piece of SWOT equipment, if you want to research bringing, you know, expanding your unit, uh, I mean, bringing new training in, what's the protocol? You do your homework, you do your research, you justify why you need it. Um, if it's, you know, a funding issue and you're saying, hey, we need a little bit of funding for you know equipment for training or whatnot, hey, I've already looked into funding sources. We could reallocate funds here, or um, you know, where you're going, you're packaging it up for them and shutting down all the what-ifs, right? Well, what if someone comes and trolls? Hey, we have a social media policy and a terms of use that allows us if somebody does something that's inappropriate, here's how we're gonna respond to it. So you shut down all the reasons for them to say no, and then you focus on the positive aspects of it. So you can say, hey, look at the success that these other agencies have had, or look at this post that I did, uh, and we've been successful. So those are, you know, those are typically the things that I would say is you don't give them a chance to say no, and you have something already prepared for anything that they might question. Is there a type you mentioned showing the positive posts even from other agencies to say, look at this? Is there a type of post? And I have no idea what you're gonna say, Tamara, but is there a type of post where it's the opposite? Where you go, where you could point out and say, this is the type of post we don't want to do. People are doing it, but we don't want to do this because this will affect us negatively or has the potential to affect us in a negative way that we can't control. Is there a category or type that you can pin down? So I would say there there's uh varying opinions on this, but is it okay and appropriate to you know use humor to connect with people, have a little fun, not be so serious all the time? Absolutely. There's a lot of agencies that do a really good job with that. They get their message across with a little bit of humor or fun, but still professionally. Yeah, there are some agencies I like to call them like the TikTok cops, or where it's merely entertainment with no value, where they're chasing likes, where they're looking at vanity metrics, which you know really isn't the point of your agency's social media. If you go viral for some dancing trend video and you're getting views, you know, five states over, is that really your audience and what is the purpose of that? Are you providing value on your page? So I think an example would be something where it's distasteful, where it's, you know, people are going, really, you know, I hate when people post this, oh, this is where my tax dollars are going for it to pay you guys to dance. Um, you know, that uh not to cater to to that um, you know, narrative, but to say, hey, I get it. We're not gonna do anything that's distasteful. We're not gonna go and post anything that's showing these things. And what we're looking at is doing this. So it's almost like you're providing a spectrum of, hey, we're not gonna do this. This is gonna be where we're gonna be. Or if we're not quite there yet to maybe be posting a lot of video, maybe we start somewhere in the middle and start inching our way where this is our goal to get to what this agency is doing. So it provides those parameters because a lot of the concern is, you know, with the public. Public perception, like I mentioned earlier, to where they go, hey, we don't want to, you know, look unprofessional. Yes. And you know, we're don't worry, we're not gonna do that. That's not what I'm trying to do. Good. I was hoping you'd you'd say that. And uh because that that drives me crazy. It's one of the things that drives me crazy. I love that you point that you made it into it's not about the clicks because some of those, let's use the dance video, shall we? Uh some of those dance videos that get a lot of looks that and they go, look at how many looks we got. Yeah, but half the people are laughing at you. And another quarter of them are going, what is wrong with that police department? You know what I mean? And yeah, I got lots of clicks. But like you said, Tamron, what's what's the end benefit for our department, image-wise or information-wise, or recruiting-wise? There is none. No, nobody's sitting at home going, I'm joining that department because they got good dancers. You know, exactly. Look at the moves they got. They're so they're choreographed, and they're doing it on a rooftop of a high building. I'm using my department, and it's wow, that is so nobody's doing that. Yeah, nobody's doing that. Uh, it's a waste of time, money, and effort, and it makes you look dumb, you know. And to further, to further what you're saying, as far as you know, this is what I'm not gonna do, this is what we're going to do. I would even say, which we talk about in the classes, is come up with, I know, you know, day-to-day operations are dynamic and may change, but kind of a social media calendar or strategy to go, hey, we're we're gonna highlight one of our staff. We're gonna have tech Tuesdays where we're gonna talk about some of the technology that's used. We're gonna, you know, highlight something that we did positive where we assisted, you know, another agency or in a rescue or with, you know, apprehension of a suspect. And so these are the things that we're going to do. We're not doing that stuff, but these are some of the examples of some stuff that we're gonna do where they go, okay, now I see they could visualize what your plan is. So it kind of gets rid of the what ifs by actually showing them, nope, this is what we're gonna do. This is what, you know, here's 10 different posts that I want to do over the next 90 days. Wow, that's that's a sounds like a great strategy. And I like some of the ideas too. The the tech, the tech talk or the support talk, you know, they're there. That's the thing with with law enforcement and public safety in general. There's a gazillion things that you can choose to show that people don't know about. I mean, I we've gotta have talked this about this before about the things that your own department does that you don't know about. You're on that department and you don't know about a successful rescue or an incredible caper that they that was done or a life-saving incident of a child, and you don't know about that, and you're a member of that same police department, think about the public. They they know even less. And so there's so much to choose from positive that you can show people without dancing or without doing some trendy thing, TikTok cop thing. I love that you use that term because uh why not show something that uh actually has an impact for positive and good on the community that we're uh that we signed up to serve? I mean, there's so many things to choose from. Um you probably I would guess, Tamarin, that there's times when where it is it can get overwhelming. We go, man, we have so many things here. Which what do we prioritize to show? Because there's 25 things that we could show today. What do we do? Is that come up? Thank you to our sponsor, Shot Over. Showver Systems is the leading developer and manufacturer of high-performance gyro stabilized cameras with advanced real-time AR mapping and mission management, all backed by unparalleled custom training and support. Now offering the M2 Multi-Sensor System, sole six-axis EOIR platform with 4K Ultra HD color and infrared technology, ideal for law enforcement and defense, offered with real-time AR overlays to quickly identify streets, weather, and traffic, automated license plate recognition, 24 megapixel digital photographs, and automated steering and tracking. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and at the end of the day, just giving the posed photos that really don't provide any value, we've moved beyond that. People want authenticity, they want connection. There has to be value. There's so many things to educate them on, and they love a peek behind the curtains. I mean, I'm a you know, crime TV junkie, documentary junkie. People love it. They want a little peek behind the curtains. They want to go, oh wow, that take that training's intense. I didn't know they did that many hours of training. Wow. Or I don't, I didn't realize that they respond to that many incidents, or I didn't know what goes into it, or wow, that technology that they have to assist in these types of situations is great. Or I didn't know that they help other agencies in the area or have a you know mutual aid partnership with the county or other cities. There's so much. And it's funny that people complain how the public doesn't understand what we do and what goes into it. Yeah. And you go, well, are you how are they supposed to know? You have to tell them when you're frustrated why people don't understand certain things or support certain things or question certain things. Okay, well, have you taken the time to educate them, to get their buy-in, to get their support so that their first response isn't always to question you. It's to go, you know what, they've talked about this before. Or, okay, I get it. I'm gonna give them a little bit of grace or not be so quick to judge them because I know that they're transparent. I know that they take the time to educate the community, I know what this organization is about. It's it goes beyond just uh a staged picture. It's it's creating that connection and it's you know, it's the foundation of trust, is what it is. Perfectly stated. Very, very nice, Tamron. Thanks. Yeah, some something that's interesting when I think about canon operations and air support, those are two of the most understood uh units, I think, in in law enforcement from the general public and and also internally with our own departments. A lot of officers don't fully understand what it what it means to be a canon officer, right, Jack? Oh absolutely. Same with with air support. Most patrol officers have no idea what our capabilities are and and what we do. Absolutely true. From an internal marketing perspective, I think it's really important to promote that kind of stuff, you know, and get that peek behind the curtains, as as you as you mentioned, Tamarin. Uh the other part of that is is the recruitment side. You know, I think when when young folks are looking at an agency to go work for, their digital footprint or fingerprint is evident in the the social media that exists for that agency. And if you look on someone's uh social media page and and you see the TikTok cop, to me, that's an agency I probably don't want to work go work for. Yep. So for from your perspective, Tamarman, talk about the importance of a solid social media program, whether it's a unit-based program or department-based program for use in internal marketing and recruiting and external recruiting. So there's a couple different sides to it. There's the recruitment side, which a lot of people focus on, but something that I actually did a recruitment webinar recently as well, they forget about the retention side of it. And a lot of times they focus so much on bonuses and attracting new people instead of trying to keep the people that they have. And there is a component of highlighting the things that they do, of showing value. Not that that's why they're doing the job because they want recognition, but highlighting the things that they do through social media shows that they value the position. They value the individual, they value the work that they're doing. Um, I've seen agencies highlight, you know, a case that a detective worked on that might not be the most glamorous, you know, case, but they talked about the persistence, what it took, the follow-up, the tenacity, the, you know, helping, working with the victims to get justice. There's something to say about showing value and what they do and what they provide. And so there's a little bit of a retention side of that, which can help, you know, obviously affect your recruitment needs. So the internal, the morale side of it, uh, there's definitely a component, especially with the younger generations. Again, that's not why they're doing things, but to feel valued and supported, that's one of the things people complain about. They feel like they don't have value and support at their organizations, and that's why they're they're leaving. But when it comes to the recruitment side of it, the recruitment starts way beyond the point where you start accepting applications or you fly a position. It's general marketing concepts, repeat exposure over time. And it's not even direct marketing where, hey, we're hiring, hey, we're hiring, come join our department. It's wow, they were really transparent. Hey, I love John, you talked about the way that the sheriff showed up and dealt with that. Hey, I love that they are involved in their community. I saw, you know, that them post about something that they did in the community. Hey, I see that they're solving crimes, that they, you know, have a lot of resources uh and special assignments. So it's building that repeat exposure over time. And then when you do finally say, hey, we have positions where we're taking applications for recruits, it's a done deal. It's not, they're gonna go, well, yeah, I I I love what this department stands for. I love what they do, their values align with with mine. Um, I can see myself in that organization. That starts before you you do the job posting. They a lot of the recruits and some of the feedback that we we get when we do recruitment surveys or work with departments is they want a sense of the department's culture. So, how do you how do you emulate that or how do you display that to them through social media? You know, there's strategic ways, not just a post photo of everybody lined up with certificates at a council meeting. I mean, what value does that show? If I'm scrolling through social media, consuming thousands of posts a day, what's gonna make your agency stand out? A post photo with a plaque, or go, hey man, I saw what that agency did yesterday. Um and it's funny because sometimes people will go, oh yeah, I saw this post, this agency did this, and you go, what agency was it? Oh, I don't know. Because it didn't stand out, right? Yesterday I was scrolling through Phoenix Police Department. You know, people do their badge pinning ceremonies and the basic photos, and they went in and they said, you know, as they were getting their badge and doing their pose shot with the chief. Um, I was in the WNBA. I served in the military. I did this. So how cool is that instead of the basic post photo to go, wow, they have people who are athletes who served in the military. What is that subliminity subliminally telling you? Hey, you know what? Hey, my son's gonna be coming out of the military in his service. Maybe, you know, this is a career path for him. Or, hey, I've been yearning since I left playing, you know, semi-pro or college sports for that team culture and environment. I think I could get that fulfilled, working in public safety. So it's planting those seeds to show that human-centered storytelling, to create that connection to where they could go. I could see myself as them in that organization. And I think that the way that people put out recruitment content, that, you know, they're recruiting like it's, you know, 2005. Those are the agencies that are struggling. The agencies that do this, you know, getting buy-in, doing the storytelling, content that resonates, provides value, those are the ones that do well. Those are the ones that are going to get chosen over every other agency. It's not like back in the days when, you know, we worked at departments, you had a line around the building for two spots, and we're talking qualified applicants. We'll be lucky if if you know we can get that many to come out for testing that are actual qualified candidates. So it's it's marketing. It's how do you sell your organization to where they're going to pick you? And any of you who shop on social media or follow social media, you see a post. Oh, okay, look at it. Then you see another post come up. Oh, now I'm watching the video longer. And then maybe I click on the link, and then hey, I like that photo. And the next thing you know, you got something showing up to the door delivered, right? Repeat exposure over time. It's funny you mentioned that video. I watched that video, and I thought it was great. That's genius. It shows every background, you know, people that have been profess like you said, professional athletes to I just got out of college, you know. But it showed them in an authentic, real way. They are the real people that are there. And you can't get away from a Phoenix PD video without knowing it's Phoenix PD. I mean, logo. Oh, yes. I mean, you're you're you're saying this from an educated point of view. I'm saying it from somebody who doesn't know anything and how it impacted me. So I I love that that uh that impacted you in a professional way, and it impacted me in the in a different angle just from a follower that goes, Wow, I really like Phoenix PD's stuff. John and I have been following for a while. We got a guest out of that, one of our favorite guests, Helen, Helen Belmere uh from Phoenix PD. I got turned on to Helen by watching a video by Phoenix PD showing what she did, saying, I was scared of heights, and now I fly helicopters. And it's like I love that oh it grabbed me. And that this within days of seeing that video of Helen being highlighted, and they do it for all throughout the department. That just happened to be Helen. Uh, I met Brent Bundy for the first time at a V uh VAI in Anaheim, and I said, Hey, you're retired, Phoenix. Do you know Helen? Of course I know Helen. I go, we need her for the podcast. And he goes, Yes, you do. And 10 minutes later, I was talking to her because he had her number. He had just retired. My point is that a video promoting the Phoenix PD led to an outstanding guest, which led to us going to Phoenix, which led to a wonderful Blades of Alor visit. I mean, where we highlighted them even more. But Phoenix does it really well. And I remember telling Helen that over and over. I said, the people that are running your social media and your promotion and recruitment, they're doing it right. You know, they're actually doing a good job. And she was like, Yeah, I think they do. I said, No, I'm telling you, as an outsider, they do. That's how we found you, Helen. And and there have been other examples, right? Right now, we're talking to getting Modesto PD on. They're they're gonna come on the podcast. I saw their chief on a social media post talk about crime stats from last year and the reduction in crime. Well, one of the elements is that of that is their air unit. So that led to us contacting them and they're coming on the podcast because of a a 30-second, maybe a minute clip of the chief being very authentic and real, not not doing a dance, he's talking about the real real deal. Uh, hey, this is what we're doing in Modesto. And and look at our hard work, what it brings. That to me, if I'm looking for a police department, I'm going, I want to work for that guy. You know what I mean? Just the way he presented himself and the things that he talked about. So, oh man, I just love that you brought up that video because there are departments that are definitely doing it right. Right. No, and it's funny when when we bring, when we onboard a client to do recruitment, because we do recruitment websites, recruitment photos, videos, and all the marketing and branding, is I say, okay, what's your vision? And uh unfortunately, a lot of times it's we want to highlight every unit, every team. We have motors, we have SROs, we have detectives. I'm sitting here going, okay, guys, so does everybody else. Um, and I call them yearbook videos because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by focusing on one person over the other. And uh, you know, and then I sit there and I go, Do you want my opinion? Focus on what makes you different. Focus on storytelling, focus on things that people are gonna connect with that makes your agency stand out. Everybody has those things. I mean, those are a given, but that's not why somebody would pick your organization. They're gonna pick your organization because they're gonna see themselves there. And you know, so that totally aligns with, you know, it like you said, it's effective because I mean, Phoenix is a great example of that of an agency whose branding and messaging is just spot on, and they do a phenomenal job of showing why they're different, who they are, the culture there, and what they're about. It's funny because another video Phoenix just put out, I kind of said, ooh, and I'll tell you what it is it's an academy video of them running the hill. There's a hill behind the academy. John and I flew over that hill uh with Phoenix PD, and it's a significant hill, and you're in the desert, you know, and they showed the recruits running this hill. And I went, wow, that's gonna scare some people off. But it's also there's another element, the people that we really want to come in law enforcement that are gonna go, yeah, baby, they care. They care about fitness on the Phoenix Police Department, or they wouldn't be showing that video of these of these young uh recruits running that hill in the desert. I love that. There's many academies, and I won't name them, but I have a relationship with some that 90% of the of the people that were in the academy couldn't walk up that hill. You know, they can't that because they have let it go. That the physical fitness is mildly interesting to a lot of departments. And Phoenix is showing that we care. Because this is serious stuff, there's a serious job, and there's life and death involved, and you gotta be fit and we're gonna make you fit. And it so that element of the public that's looking to maybe to get in law enforcement, and I'm thinking about military people and you know athletes, uh, are going, yeah, I like that. It was just funny how I looked at it two different ways, but they show a lot of academy videos of the training, and it's impressive. And again, that patch is really unique from Phoenix, and it's always there. And at the end, you know it's Phoenix. And they they like you said, the branding, they they do so good at that. Uh I can't talk about it enough. It's one of my favorite things. When it pops up, I never skip a Phoenix video because they're all good, they're all really good. Absolutely. And to your point, you know, for for the person scrolling through, if if you can't recall the agency of the of the post that maybe maybe somewhat resonated with you, you saw it's like, oh, it's interesting, but who was it? Phoenix seems to have found a way to solve that problem, you know. You and I do it, John, right? Right? We talk about stuff. I go, hey, John, man, I saw this cool, I can't remember which agency it was. I say that all the time. You know, so just success in what they chose, failure in branding it properly, so that I don't forget what it is when I tell my friend, hey John, you should look at this video. I don't know what agency it was, but it's really cool. You know, it's like, well, I got half the message. And it's an e it sounds to me, Tamron, that that's an easy solution from your perspective. Thanks for joining us for this episode of the Hanger Z podcast. Don't forget to like and subscribe to hear more stories that promote the personnel and equipment behind the missions of public safety aviation. Lastly, stand by for a message after a word from our sponsors. Cheers. Thank you to our sponsor, Precision Aviation Group. Mission critical operators and fleet managers rely on Precision Aviation Group as a worldwide leading rotor and fixed-wing MRO provider. TAG provides tip-to-tail solutions in four MRO segments: avionics, components, engines, and manufacturing DER services. A single point of contact gives you access to over 150 million in inventory globally 24-7. Just call 800-537-2778, Prestigion Aviation Group. Others sell parts. We sell support. Make it our sponsor Quantum Helicopters. For over two decades, Phoenix PD, Maricope County Sheriff's Office, Mesa PD, and the Pennell County Sheriff's Office in Arizona have trusted Quantum Helicopters for primary flight training. We've helped boost their efficiency, cut costs, delivered unmatched quality, and keep them focused on public safety. Don't just take our word for it. Reach out and see how we can deliver the same results for your agency. Visit QuantumHelicopters.com to learn more. Thank you to our sponsor, Shot Over. Shot Over Systems is the leading developer and manufacturer of high-performance gyro stabilized cameras with advanced real-time AR mapping and mission management, all backed by unparalleled custom training and support. Now offering the M2 Multi-Sensor System, sole six-access EOIR platform with 4K Ultra HD color and infrared technology. Ideal for law enforcement and defense. Offered with real-time AR overlays to quickly identify streets, weather, and traffic, automated license plate recognition, 24 megapixel digital photographs, and automated steering and tracking. That wraps up this episode with Tamar Olin. We hope this conversation has helped shift the perspective on social media from an auxiliary duty to a mission critical tool for your agency and your unit. Whether you're supervising up to overcome administrative hurdles or using Tech Tuesdays to justify your air unit's budget, remember that transparency and storytelling are your best assets for building community trust. A huge thank you to Tamron for joining us and sharing your expertise. If you found this episode valuable, please share with your command staff andor your social media team. We'll see you next time on the Hanger Z podcast.