SPEAKER_04

The Hangers E Podcast welcomes Mike Fidale, Blake Schreider, and Woody McClendon for a panel discussion on fatigue.

SPEAKER_07

We don't get a good night's sleep. We are fighting with our spouse. Our kids were playing all day long and kept us up. The dog wouldn't stop barking throughout the day. Whatever this may be, right? Like there's all of these external factors, or maybe we had a really busy weekend because we had to go to all these kids' events. Whatever it may be, we show up to work thinking we're in this good headspace that we got enough sleep. Or we know for a fact we probably didn't, and we're just banking on the fact that, you know what, it's okay. I only got three hours of sleep. I'm gonna be able to nap when I get to work, right? Like and and I think that we we trick ourselves on this daily basis of thinking that we're not really as tired as what we actually are. We come up with every excuse of why we can do it, but we refuse to think of a reason why we shouldn't.

SPEAKER_04

Welcome back to the Hangers E podcast, brought to you by Vertical Helicast and partner with Vertical Valor Plus. Today's episode is a special collaboration with our friends from the Valor Flight Crew Podcast, and we're tackling a topic that impacts every one of us in aviation. Fatigue. Joining us for this outstanding panel discussion are the hosts of the Valor Flight Crew Podcast, Mike Fidale and Blake Schreider. We are also honored to welcome a highly respected aviator with decades of experience, former Hems pilot Woody McClendon. Fatigue is truly the danger you can't see. Unlike weather, mechanical issues, or other operational hazards, fatigue can quietly affect our judgment, decision making, situational awareness, and overall performance long before we recognize its impact. Whether you're a pilot, TFO, crew member, mechanic, dispatcher, or supervisor, fatigue affects all of us in different ways. And it becomes an even greater challenge when working shift schedules, commonly throughout public safety aviation. The reality is that fatigue is not a possibility, it is an inevitability. The question is not if fatigue will contribute to an incident or accident in public safety aviation, but when. That is why open and honest conversations like this one are so important. In this episode, we'll discuss safety initiatives designed to mitigate fatigue, the role of flight risk assessment tools, crew readiness, organizational responsibility, and personal accountability. Most importantly, our panel shares real-world experiences and lessons learned from careers spent operating in demanding environments where fatigue was often a constant factor. This is a candid, informative, and thought-provoking discussion that every aviation professional should hear. So settle in and join us as we explore one of the most significant and often overlooked threats to aviation safety. This is the Hangers D Podcast in collaboration with the Valor Flight Crew Podcast. And the conversation begins right now. Thank you to our sponsors, Bell, BLR Aerospace, and Weissong Enterprises.

SPEAKER_03

Welcome to the Hangers D Podcast, brought to you by Vertical Helicast. The Hangers D Podcast is the first and only podcast dedicated to promoting and exploring the personnel and equipment behind the missions in public safety aviation.

SPEAKER_00

So Southbound is getting to a stop. That fire looks like they're getting ready to fail. Heads up guys failing. Okay, the guy is running through the house, jumping the fence, through the shotgun, through something out, grabbing the shotgun, jump over that fence, jump over the fence, grab the shotgun again. He is armed. Stay there. Hold your position.

SPEAKER_04

Welcome to a special collaboration podcast with the Hangers E Podcast and the Valor Flight Crew Podcast. Brought to you by Vertical Helicast, partner with Vertical Valor Plus, and also partner with Echo Every Coast Helicopter Operations. I'm your host, Jack Shanley, but we're going to also have a couple other hosts involved in this because of this collaboration. And that's from the Valor Flight Crew podcast, Mike Fidale. Mike, how are you? I'm doing great. How are you, Jack? Great. And Blake Schreider. Blake, how's it going, man? I'm doing good, sir. How about you? Very good. Uh the three of us are gonna kind of host, try host this uh and on this topic that we're gonna cover. And we asked. You've already surpassed me in so many ways, Mike. I mean, you're the radio, the FM voice, you you got me beat, dude. Um, we were talking about that. We're gonna have Mike do a uh a sleep app, and he's gonna say, Hi, I'm Mike Fidale, and I'm gonna count cheap for you. One. Two.

SPEAKER_07

I would buy that app in a heartbeat. I just want you to know.

SPEAKER_04

Me too.

SPEAKER_07

I want to present.

SPEAKER_04

Uh but to help us in this conversation, we wanted somebody who's been there, done that in many ways. And we invited Woody McClendon to join us. Woody, welcome to Hanger Z and the Vertical Flight Crew Podcast. It's it's hard for me to say because I'm not used to saying it. It's on the Woody. I know, I'll look at that. How's it going, Woody?

SPEAKER_05

It's uh it's it's just great. It's uh I've been looking forward to this now for a while. I've what a you know, what a great group to to get together and share a topic that we're all uh very passionate about.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, absolutely. And it's why we asked you, Woody. I mean, you've got a a lot of experience, and we're gonna get to that. We're gonna Woody's gonna have an opportunity to introduce himself to to all of our followers and listeners and uh in a minute, but we want to start with the topic and and really just get a hook in here. Uh and this topic for this podcast is fatigue. It's fatigue. It's something that affects the entire rotorcraft industry uh in in almost every way from military pilots to commercial pilots to people flying out to oil rigs, to uh EMS, to hems, to law enforcement, search and rescue. If you're flying at night on odd hours, whether you're a pilot or a crew member, this podcast is for you. Because this topic is something you deal with every day, uh, that you're that you're working, even on your days off. Which I mean, even on days off, you're dealing with this topic. Uh, so we're gonna take a deep dive into fatigue. And to start, we're gonna go round the horn and uh and just ask each panelist here, Mike, why are we talking about fatigue tonight?

SPEAKER_07

Man, that's a great question. And I and I think that this is something that we can all relate to every single day, just like you said. Like I feel like I don't have a day off anymore, right? But we even when I do go to work, I I I'm waking up in the morning, I'm getting myself ready, and I'm just like, man, I am exhausted and not feeling this. And I've noticed that I'm not the only one. Uh and I think that, you know, for the past couple of years, I've been doing a bit of an assessment of what our uh frat scores are uh for the entire program. And I've noticed that doing those frat scores, you know, one of the common things is just as an industry, as a program, how tired we are. And and I think that we're already going into this with that certain level of fatigue already. And then when we add in the extra stressors of this job and doing it at nighttime and waking up at three o'clock in the morning and having to be our best every single time we go out the door, it's not an easy task and it's a lot of pressure to do that. Um, but I I mean, I know for me personally, I feel tired. I I'm I'm exhausted most days, uh, especially now taking on a new role. Life has been absolutely crazy. But, you know, loving every minute of it is just that it's a lot. And I think that that is shared across the industry. I don't care what seat you're sitting in in the helicopter. I think that we can all relate to this. And I feel it's such an important topic because it's something that for the longest time I think we couldn't talk about.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, yes, and we're gonna get into that. Uh, how that how that's changed. Um, kind of like the mental wellness side of things, how that's changed. It's the same thing with fatigue. Uh, and it's and it's part of the mental wellness thing, it's a big part of it. 100%. Um, yeah. Blake, why are we talking about fatigue?

SPEAKER_06

Because I'm tired. Yeah, exactly. I'm tired. And you know what? Like I taught all day today. It's like perfect, right? And you brought up such a a good point. I I feel like if I'm tired, you're tired, Mike's tired, Woody, you're probably tired. You're like it we're all tired, right? Because we don't like I think when we get into this field and when when we do this profession, there's all these other aspects that come with it, and especially when you do it for a long period of time, the first few years that they just they're there, you're learning a lot, like you're tired, but I think you mask it with like that adrenaline, and you're you're learning so much, and there's a lot that that's coming at you, then over time it it kind of sets in, and then it's it's fatigued, you know. And and I think that if I'm tired, I many of us that this is not our only role, you know, within either that organization, and we have other commitments. Yeah, I I know when I started, I didn't have a family, it was just me. It was only me. That's changed in 13 years, you know. I now have a family, I have a stepdaughter, I have two dogs, I have a wife, and I also do a lot of teaching, you know, and and there's so many people that are listening that are so actively involved. Mike's got a new role, you know. He has to hire, he has to teach, he has to do so many other things, and also be a clinician. And I think a lot of us wear many different hats. And I think we we don't we don't ever really take them off. There's always a hat that's on at some point, and it it really becomes our new normal. And you mentioned days off. I'm not really sure what those are. They sound really cool. They do, don't they? I'd love to have one. They sound great.

SPEAKER_04

Very well stated, uh, Blake. I love that you that you brought in the it's not just the work responsibilities, you know, that that affect this topic. It's what you do when you leave work, you know, going to soccer games and ballet lessons and and you know, hockey practice at 0600. And you know, it's that stuff too that affects it affects you when you come back to work teaching. Boy, I can relate to that. Man, on so many days off, I would leave and teach. Go teach for two, three days, travel, come back, go right back to work. Those were my three days off, weren't weren't days off. So really good point, uh, Blake. We will again we'll deep deeper dive into that uh shortly. But Woody, why are we talking about fatigue?

SPEAKER_05

So I'm doing it from a happy position of retirement, but it's my my very last flying job of 40 years of flying, um, five years of that last was five years flying for native air in Arizona in an air star. And it was probably one of the most significant jobs I've had, including, I mean, flying jets all over the world and all that. But but it was there that I really came up against this whole issue of of these late-night flights into hostile terrain, uh and thinking to myself, you know better than this. What are you doing? Yeah. And it was it there were deep, deep challenges to that. And uh and I when you when you tried to share it with the other pilots, uh it was amazing the differences and in how they reacted. And basically behind the mask, which took various forms, they were all struggling with it. Uh and um so anyway, i i it was I think one of the most significant experiences of my entire life, trying to figure out how to be on the game, beyond my game in super challenging flying circumstances, and um and realizing that uh I just hadn't had enough rest.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah, so true. Um and like like we said, everybody on this panel knows exactly what you're talking about. Everybody that's worked shift work knows exactly what you're talking about. And that's that's what I'd like to to answer that question by saying I I think this is important to talk about because things need to change. Uh, and they have, and we'll discuss that how that's changed over time, but it needs to continue to change and be looked at in a different way because this is serious stuff. Uh public safety aviation, particularly, you're you're getting called to do a mission, middle of the night, your body is not agreeing with that, and but you're going. And you know, you're going. And you have to like like like you said, Blake, you gotta be 100% no matter which position you're in. You can't there's no mulligans, there's no can I get another shot at that approach? Can I get another shot at that uh IV I just put in there? There's none of that. Exactly. It's you gotta get it right the first time, and that's hard enough under the best conditions. But when you're tired and fatigued and things aren't working quite right, uh it just exaggerates all of it. So my big thing is that I I want to talk to all of all of us need to talk today about the changes and the the improvements that we have made and how it needs to continue. I can speak from the law enforcement side that this is looked at in a variety of ways depending on the unit, because there are law enforcement agencies out there that do work a 24-hour shift. And you know, they they do and they they do and they do sleep. It's like a firehouse, you know, kind of thing. Uh but there's still, I would say, most that go in for an eight-hour or a 10-hour shift, and then they go home and there's different shifts, and fatigue is just uh not even talked about, or it's just oh you you work uh yeah, you work 11 at night till seven in the morning. Okay, just do it. And well, what about fatigue? What about it? You're a cop, you know, and that and that's kind of the attitude. And so that's why I think this is one of the reasons why this is important to me, because I I saw this firsthand where it was not just frowned upon, but I mean there were people that were hostile about sleeping on duty as a cop, a pilot or TFO, at after you landed at uh 0400 and just closing your eyes in a chair was like, what are you doing? You know, that's so that needs to change. And and it is in some places. But um, so that's the topic, ladies and gentlemen. I mean, we're gonna be talking about fatigue and all aspects. Uh there's a lot, a lot of different angles here. Let's start with this before we go to the backgrounds of our everybody. Let's start with this. There's a saying, you've all heard it, I've heard it. Uh it is not if, but when your unit will have an incident or accident with fatigue being a contributing factor. That that's true in aviation, period, uh, but certainly in public service aviation. Um it is not if it's when you're gonna have an incident or accident where fatigue is a contributing factor. Um Woody, what do you think about that that saying? What is that what what hits you when you when you s hear that?

SPEAKER_05

Well, it's the bald truth.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And you know, companies and agencies, um well, I mean, you know, like air medical companies and law enforcement agencies are intent on presenting an external image of everything's fine all the time. We all yeah, there are no problems. We have every we have everything under control. And and uh and they don't. And I think the the as you get into that as a crew member and and and you know early on you realize this is not right. I mean, this is crazy. But then you you do you deal with it because that's the schedule, and nobody it's non-negotiable. And um and even though you know it's dangerous, you you show up and do it. Yeah. And and I think you then we we all have have had to just deal with that and and realize that our employers don't want they're not gonna talk about it. They are not going to talk about it. And and it's I think it's darkly humorous in the air medical business that every air medical crew member knows this is a uh ongoing crisis, and the companies go like everything's fine. What are you talking about? Yeah, yeah and and I think right there, guys, that's the that's the dilemma that we've all lived with. And um I I mean, you know, if you said the obvious answer is, well, what do we do about it? Well, none of us can do anything about it. You know, we're in roles where we're serving, and and we all notice when our friends get promoted out, then when you talk to them about them, they they they're kind of give you that smile. Well, I'm not anymore. So uh tough on you.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

Well, is that is that why you've had that smirk on your face since we started this podcast?

SPEAKER_08

Yep, that's it.

SPEAKER_05

But it's I mean, in in my long, very career in aviation, it's the only place, only venue I've ever been where what I viewed as a uh critical situation was swept under the rug. And is swept under the rug. And when you look at it, you think there's a there's a morbid curiosity, why is this, why does this happen? So I mean, I guess you know, we've all seen the companies say, Well, we've made great improvements, and you think like what? Yeah, did we?

SPEAKER_04

Did we really?

SPEAKER_05

I guess I missed that meeting. But uh yeah, so I guess in truth, part of this subject is if we've made improvements, what are they and in fact do they make any difference? I mean, if you look at things like NBGs, yeah, they did improve it. And companies have, you know, the companies made, you know, I was in that period where we transitioned to Goggles, and and the employer, our employer and all the people in the industry, this is a huge breakthrough. And I thought it's better than what we had before, but it's not a huge breakthrough in real life. And uh I think as we go along and talk about our various personal struggles to to try to help the problem, it's always gonna it it kind of circles back to that. Oh, yeah, well and it's really not a problem. Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_04

Blake, what what is that if it's it's not if but when phrase what what jumps into your head when you hear that?

SPEAKER_02

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SPEAKER_06

I think the biggest thing that stands out for me is why hasn't it happened to me yet?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

Am I doing something right or am I lucky? You know, or is it both? I want to say that I'm I'm doing things right.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

But you know, as we were talking about this, I had this thought, and just throwing this out there as strictly an analogy, right? Just hypothetical. If your house caught fire, or somebody hypothetically, a house caught fire, and you did everything right, you got out, you called the authorities, you called 911, and either someone didn't show up or it took them like twenty minutes to show up. And if you were to ask, hey, what what took so long? And if the answer that you got Was oh, the crew is pretty tired. They they weren't able to get to that fire. You know, like, and I say that because that that's just the honest truth of as we're talking about this, of obviously that's not the answer anybody wants to hear, right? Like, that's why we are here to do this job and to serve, right? But how like and to think about that statement, it's not if but when. Okay. So it took 20 minutes for someone to get there and and assist with this house fire, right? But I don't know. Um it's such a really hard balance because we are those of us in this field, and and this will definitely cross over into not just, I think, the pre-hospital realm. I think this from a from a medical perspective, this carries over into hospital, it carries into other various forms of transport, you know, just as much as this dovetails into law enforcement and even military, you know. Yeah. Like, so so how do we balance that? How do we balance being ready and having crews be ready to respond when they're called, but also just not be fatigued, right? You know, and and but it's it's public service, right? I'm a public servant, right? I I do these things to serve my community. So when I think about that, I like to think that I'm doing things right. And I would like to think that if it hasn't happened to me yet, I would like to think that I can only control the things that I can control. So I'm gonna do the best that I can. And outside of those factors that I can't control, I would like to think that I am doing the best to show up to my shift well rested. Right. Well, we already know that's a strike one because I just talked about it. Like that ain't happening, right? Uh, did I eat well? No, I'm drinking a soda right now, you know. You know, I'm having a zen and a coffee in the morning just to give my butt up and and rolling, right? So, so what am I really doing as a like I'm showing up when I'm called, right? And I'm there. But you know, am I am I really being am I being the best that I can for my patients and not only my patients, but my my fellow crew members, you know? Am I being the best lookout uh when I'm up front with uh the pilot, you know? Um am I being the best at you know, backing up my crew member because I'm showing up tired, you know, or maybe my mind is just uh, you know, like you know, maybe I had an argument with my wife, or you know, we had a disagreement, or I'm just coming in and I'm angry about something, and that carries over, you know, or maybe there's a call, you know, and I think all of us can relive this. There was a call that's just eating at us, you know, that it didn't really, it didn't sit well. And that just carries over. So yeah, it's not if but when. I don't know, when's it gonna happen? You know, am I gonna be, will I be lucky? Am I doing things right? So I don't know. And and I think about that because I want to be that person that when is called upon to do my job that I'm there to do it, and I'm gonna do it well, and I'm gonna do it to the absolute 100% expectation that I signed up for. I I don't know. I want to make sure that I'm doing it correctly, but I I think that that as we talk about this further, I think we can find some ways. I don't know that we're gonna find all the answers, and and and maybe we're gonna come up with way more questions than even you know answers. But maybe we steer it in the direction of like we should have some difficult conversations with ourselves as not only public servants responders, but whether you work in a hospital or whether you work in overnight shift work at a at a factory, you know, like everywhere, everybody's fatigued, and maybe we can come up with ways to just bring awareness to if I speak up, maybe someone can help step into that place when I'm tired. Maybe there's someone that can fill that role of when someone's called that they don't have to wait 20 minutes for someone to show up and you know put their house out that was on fire, you know.

SPEAKER_04

That's good, but like good stuff in there. Mike, you know, same phrase, same question. What's your reaction when you hear that? For you personally.

SPEAKER_07

So I I I think in some regards, I I have two reactions. My first one is anger. I've lost too many friends in this industry, too many people that I've been close with, too many colleagues, and it's from across the country. And it doesn't it it shouldn't and it doesn't get any easier. And I and I I don't, you know, I can't say that all of these factors or all these uh instances have been related to fatigue. Some maybe have been, some may not have been. But it it's just a hard pill for me to swallow. And and I think of it in, you know, the the other aspect of it is I look at it from we plan for this in every other aspect of what we do. If I'm going out for a critical patient, I'm constantly planning for when things are going to go wrong, right? Like I'm constantly wondering when are their hemodynamics going to change? What when when are they, you know, it's not a matter of if they're going to have a problem, it's when they're going to have a problem. And am I going to be ready for that? So why do I not always plan for the same thing in my own life and the things that I'm doing?

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

Right? Um, and then the other part of it that I look at is like, you know, Murphy's alive and well.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_07

And I always say if I ever meet him in a dark alley with no witnesses, yes, I I'll be with you.

SPEAKER_04

I'll I'll get the shovel and the and the uh the lime.

SPEAKER_07

You know, it's like we we just that the this job is inherently dangerous. We get that. We know that, right? I don't think anybody enters into this job not recognizing that this is a dangerous career.

unknown

Yep.

SPEAKER_07

And I think that that's an important piece of this puzzle because we all accept that there is some risk involved in it. But are we always doing everything we can to avoid the when? We know there's the if, but are we always doing what we can to avoid the when? And I think that as an industry, as a program, as an individual, there are things that we can all do that are going to prevent that when, and we can do a much better job at doing it if we start having conversations like this. And that's what we're here for at the end of the day, is being able to have that conversation. And and Blake, I agree with you. We may walk away from this conversation having more questions than answers. But this is the start of where this needs to go because we need to start having these open and honest conversations because if we don't, we're gonna continue losing colleagues and friends and family in instances like this.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, exactly. And and I like that you brought that up, Mike. You know, the friends that you have lost and the colleagues and people in your industry that you never even met, but you know they're in your industry, and it means something to you to lose them. Um and fatigue is one of those things that you will probably never know. If, you know, you just won't know if it was truly a factor in that. Sometimes it does come out uh because of circumstances or something, a witness or something. But but most times you just wonder, right? You don't know it. You just wonder. I wonder if, you know, that was a that was a long shift. They had multiple calls that night. I wonder if that was a contributing factor, even though the NTSB comes out with the report and says, oh, it was it was this that failed, you know, this this failed and they, you know, our weather or something. Well, did fatigue affect the decision making to get into that weather? You know, it yeah, that's what's so frustrating about fatigue. It's we don't know so much. There, there's so much we don't know. That's a better way to put it. There is so much that we do not know about this topic. And uh and it's it could be a factor more often than we even realize.

SPEAKER_07

And and I think that's the I think that's the key though, Jack, is that you know we'll never know how much it truly affects some of these things, but it's the fact that can we raise the awareness about it? Can we raise that individual or that crew awareness of how fatigued they may be? Um, to have them give them solutions to make better decisions in that moment, better tools to make the decisions in that moment, and can we learn from each other in that way? And I think that's really where the key in is with all of this.

SPEAKER_05

Well, I gotta jump in on that, Mike. I think that so many of these conversations we're sort of looking for global solutions. There are there just are not. Our employers aren't gonna change what we do, they're not gonna do anything for us. And and so I mean, I think your point you just brought up, it's up to us to to figure out any kind of mitigating circumstance that's gonna save us. Us, all of us, and and try to share that and and and integrate it into whatever we're doing, you know, integrate it into our working lives.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

When we we so if we know that fatigue is the man, I wonder how much that that really played into it. I I could speak for myself like three things today that a hundred percent like how tired I was today that absolutely played into decisions I either made or did not make today, right? So from the let me throw out like the the the medical aspect, right? This is no secret, not a neurosurgeon. Never have been, never will be, never claim to be, right? But like what happens to those like neurosurgical intense cases that are like 30-hour operations, right? Like it does that neurosurgeon participate actively for that entire process? I don't know. I've never seen one all the way through. I've seen some documentaries, I've seen some things. It looks like they do. So, how how would such a complicated uh surgical procedure, right? Some of these things that are so intense, it's a whole team of providers, physicians, nurses, techs, uh there, there's such a huge support system, right, for something that can be insanely complex, you know, for some type of uh intense procedure, right? And it may and neuro is just what I was throwing out there, right? It could be maybe something cardiovascular, whatever it is. But either way, like my point is is if there's a known inherent, like very tough task, very tough procedure that's gonna require everybody to be at their top. They plan, they rehearse, they practice, they do so many things, they do training, right? And Mike, you said it. It's not if when the patient takes that dive. So, I mean, that's the way that we look at things and how how are we prepared? Well, we train for it. We do recurrent trainings, we do all these things. For you guys as pilots, like, how do I know that if I have an engine failure, that I'm gonna be able to, you know, follow the proper procedure and do an auto-rotation? Well, you train for it, you do all those things. But Mike, you brought you brought up the best question. Why the hell do I not prepare my like why do I get it so wrong in my everyday life, like not at work? Right? And maybe wrong isn't like the best word. Maybe it's how do I why do I do it so well at work or prepare for it? But then maybe I kind of fall short other places.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, and why does that happen? Is it just because that I am so tired that I'm like, ah, you know what? I like do I have to then like consciously make decisions on where my attention is gonna be more focused than at other times? Yeah, right. You know, if I'm doing a 24-hour shift, I know when the sun's up, I'm great. And everybody I work with will attest. I am Cinderella. Soon as midnight hits, outfit changes. I really hope that you have a helmet tag with that on it.

SPEAKER_09

Cinderella.

SPEAKER_06

I don't look as good as she did in the dress, but it fits. Oh, that's great. But the reality is like, you know, I like it. Why? Because I'm tired, you know, because like we do so much during the day, right? So we do a lot of things, but we like our bodies just all of us, human beings, like we're not meant to be awake. That's right. Now there are those few people that have you know been on night shift for their entire careers, and some people can absolutely thrive that way. God bless you. I I give you all the credit in the world if you're that night shifter for like you know, many, many years and you can make that happen. That's so wonderful. I wish I had that. I like nighttime. It's cooler outside. Um, it's not as bright. Uh, there's not as many people. And we all know way more interesting things, interesting things happen at night. Um, but I'm also really tired at night. So that fatigue aspect, like I just I don't know. I think that question really is like, what are all these things that are are doing that are influencing, do I get to consciously decide then like where I can spend my time and focus and does it lack elsewhere? And then how safe am I being if that's really that practice?

SPEAKER_04

Well, I love that you brought that up. A couple things that you brought up, Blake. I want to touch on from my perspective on this on this question. I you mentioned there's some some people that can just work that night shift, you know, and it doesn't, you know, they're just do it their whole careers. I was one of those. And I don't think I was any better at it. I mean, I had the same issues, I just liked it so much that I gutted it out. And and when I was on it for long periods of time, does it get a little easier? It does, but it doesn't solve all the problems because you have days off, you know, and that just throws a wrench in everything. And now you gotta live your life and you gotta go to your kids' hockey game. You know, it's it throws a wrench in everything. So, which brings me to something that jumped out of me. You said, I wrote it down, difficult conversation with ourselves. We need to have a difficult conversation with ourselves. I've had that conversation with myself, I had it, and I will tell you that I tell you, I can't tell you the date, but I can tell you it was a month before I stopped working graveyard shifts. Because in a hell piloting a helicopter with a tactical flight ofser over the city of Los Angeles at 0330, and all of a sudden, boom, I nodded out. And you catch yourself. We've all done that in our cars at some point, I'm sure. Well, I did it at I did it at 600 feet.

SPEAKER_05

And terrifying.

SPEAKER_04

It was oh, oh my god, it was terrifying. It was very short, very brief. I came right out of it. My partner just went, You all right? I said, I am now because I've got an adrenaline push because it just scared that crap out of me. I could tell you who it was. I I remember the TFO. It was Brian Shipstead. And he said, Are you all right? I said, No, I'm man, I got a full day's sleep today. That was one of the best sleeps I've had in a long time. Didn't matter. Didn't matter for whatever reason. My body said, I've had enough of this, and it a lot of it has to do with age too. And that's the night I went, this is a younger guy's pilot's game uh to work this shift, and I need not to do this. I need to because I could choose. We I was lucky, we we had a system LAPD is really good with shift work. You pick the watch you want to go on, and you stay on that shift until you get bumped off of it. And depending on the situation, sometimes you can stay on a shift for six, eight months, even a year without getting bumped off of it, especially on Night Watch Graveyard Shift, because so many people avoid it like the plague. I mean, where they go, absolutely not. If I have a choice, I am never working that shift. Great, I love that shift, and I loved it for the same reasons that you mentioned plague.

SPEAKER_03

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SPEAKER_04

It's cooler. The action on police work is all between, you know, 200 and 0400. That I mean, all the good stuff.

SPEAKER_06

When all the cool stuff happened, it's dark now.

SPEAKER_04

I mean, it's it's it's action. I worked it in canine my whole time in canine, five years straight. Work graveyards, it's 200 to 04, was my canine time. And then I went right to air support and I stayed on graveyards. And so I love the difficult conversation with ourselves line that you that you brought up. I had that conversation with myself. I had it with my partner because Brian and I were friends, and I could confide. I said, man, I I am sorry about that. I mean, I apologize. Um, and I had it with my with my spouse. I said, hey, you know, Tracy, enough of this. I gotta, I gotta go to days for a while and and not do this anymore. Um I can't do it. I don't I I want to do it, but I can't. That was a challenging thing after working so much of that shift over 25 plus years at that point to to get rid of that. But in hindsight, I am thankful I had that conversation. I am thankful I had I went in and did something about it and didn't go back to that shift. Uh it just wasn't I didn't want to put anybody at risk, including myself, but my partner, the people I'm flying over. Right, you know, so really, really good. Have that difficult conversation with yourself. Uh boy, oh boy. That's gonna be a very powerful line that people are gonna take away from this podcast today, I believe. Because it it hit me, it hit me hard. Great. Man, four good perspectives uh you know on this topic already. But we're gonna shift gears quickly before we get back to kicking the deeper fatigue. And you know, the hanger's E audience knows who I am, the Valor Flight Crew podcast audience knows who Mike and Blake are. Uh, but we're gonna each give our background. And and if you listen to the helicopter podcast with Halsey Schneider, you've seen Woody on his podcast. You might know about Woody. But we're gonna each give uh quick backgrounds and or our flying backgrounds and how it relates to this topic. Let's start with you, Mike. Tell us about yourself a little bit and and how you know how your background and experience kicks you into this this situation where fatigue is is uh something that it's important to talk about.

SPEAKER_07

I started an EMS back in the days where it was still known as earn money sleeping.

SPEAKER_04

I swear to God, I've never heard that.

SPEAKER_07

That is I was back when I was 17. It was a number of years ago. And um, I've been in healthcare now for 27 years, 27 crazy years. Uh started off in EMS, ended up putting myself through nursing school, and uh kind of fell in love with um medicine. I I've been obsessed with helicopters, though, even longer than that. Uh since I've been about five years old, I've been obsessed with helicopters. And so it was just always a goal once I started in medicine to you know be flying by the time I turned 30. And I made that goal, I think, by about two months. So that that worked out well in my favor there, but it was always goals to have. And um I haven't looked back since I've really been enjoying the flight world. I've been flying now all together for just over 14 years for various companies, and really I enjoy the autonomy, I enjoy the responsibility, I enjoy the views, not gonna lie, it's a great office view. But it's just been something that, you know, every single day I feel absolutely blessed to be able to do this job. And it's a privilege and an honor to be able to practice critical care medicine and do it at 3,000 feet and make the difference that we can for each of those patients that we encounter.

SPEAKER_04

Great stuff. Lots of experience there talking, Mike. Wow. Good stuff. Blake, tell the audience who Blake Schreider is.

SPEAKER_06

My story's not as cool as Mike's. Uh he did the he did the cool thing and like started when like he knew what he wanted to do when he was 17. I was just happy that I found matching pants and a shirt, like like when I got to the end of high school, that I felt that actually looked decent. But no, I um I I I got into this field kind of, you know, by accident and Uh just kind of trying to figure out how to get a cool government job. And um, I started an EMS 20 years ago. Um, I was the young age of 23. So if you're good at math, you know my age. And then it just kind of blossomed from there. Like I kind of always had I liked science and medicine and stuff, but I never really kind of pictured myself as being a paramedic. I just thought driving an ambulance was really cool and you got paid pretty good. Uh, but was I wrong on both those parts? Mike said earn money sleeping. Um, I was uh it was like you earned some money sleeping. Um but I will say since then things have obviously gotten a lot better. But yeah, I started off as a EMT, went to paramedic school, and just really just blossomed from there. And I always saw the helicopter coming in, the flight crew. I was obsessed. It was really the onesie uh that did it for me. Thought it looked really cool. Yeah. Uh the red, white, and blue onesie. Super awesome. And then yeah, I just I I I you know just did things to really kind of take extra classes and learn and um really got lucky and blessed to test, get a spot. And I've been flying for 13 years now and met up with Mike and the whole Echo crew and team um started uh being able to help instruct. And uh it's just no pun intended taken off. Uh didn't uh from there. I wish I had the rim shot button, like John has been. I know I know.

SPEAKER_04

John has actually the panel is down in a in a suitcase waiting to get back to John. I should I have no excuse. I should have that panel up here and press that button.

SPEAKER_06

But yeah, that's just kind of where it's been. And I've just really had a passion and I love having these conversations. I I I like Mike said, I I feel truly blessed to do this, and um, I just want this industry to be safer and better, and I want to see more people not only have the same success that I've had, it's an incredible job and it's super cool. And I want it to be uh like I want that longevity to be there. Like I want people to be able to work hard, get to this point, and then you get to run with it, and then you can really kind of give back and make it better. So that's kind of my hope. And yeah, here I am.

SPEAKER_04

Outstanding. Outstanding. Here you are for sure. And you're and you're doing just what your goal is there. Both of you, Mike and Blake, you are making a difference in your industry. I was thrilled to be able to witness that firsthand at Echo last year in Louisville and see the reaction of people to the two of you. And and uh boy, they they just love you guys. Uh, and I know why. I mean, you're you're doing a great job with the podcast and sharing information, bringing on great guests to to uh talk about a wide variety of topics in that industry. And uh so mission accomplished, Blake.

SPEAKER_06

Well, we're learning from you guys, so but we are, we are. You guys are like legends in this. We're babies.

SPEAKER_04

I'll tell you. That's very kind, but uh John and I feel very lucky. We talk about it all the time, how grateful we are at uh bringing on people that just are we learned so much. You guys have found that too. We've talked about it on uh on the podcast with you guys where we've joined up and about you know, guests and how they affect us and uh and and the things you learn. And uh, you know, I I I think about like Dr. Tanya Glenn, I think about her almost daily with something that she has said on the podcast. And we're gonna talk about Tanya Moore here in a minute because she just wrote an article about sleep under stress is the title. We're gonna talk about her article that's in vertical uh in a minute. But before we get there, uh Woody, you you've got a long career, uh, but give us the give us the reader's digest of your career because we'd be here all day with Woody for for this. He's doing some new stuff.

SPEAKER_07

I think he just called you old.

SPEAKER_04

Woody knows I don't call him old. Would he know that he's experienced and wise. Uh Woody, tell us about your tell our audience about you.

SPEAKER_05

Well, I started flying when I was a teenager. And by the time I I was instructing at 19, and uh I got an aeronautical engineering degree, which worked for Boeing flight test, which was my dream job. And uh Boeing is of course like working for the governments. And uh I discovered that about five years into it and thought, okay, I gotta I g I gotta move on here. Oh yeah. I'll never slow, I'll never slow down to the to these guys. And then the rattled around aviation um ended up in ended up flying corporate jets and helicopters fairly early on, and um, and it's been a mix of those disciplines for all the years since then. In the mid-80s, I knew some people at UCLA, and uh and Med Star program was going through a a minor crisis, and the guy who's in charge of it that was the Dr. Morgan, who was the head of the emergency services division of the medical center, and he said, Do you know anything about paramedical flying? And I said, No, it's flying. And he said, That's good enough. We need we we need we gotta do something different here. And so we transitioned, I took over the Med Star program and transitioned it from using a vendor helicopter and vendor pilots to leasing a helicopter and having the pilots the employees of uh the medical center. And um and so we acquired a Bell 222 and got it configured for us and ran that program. It was great for about uh six years. And um and so the the interest the thing that killed it was noise, because UCLA Medical Center is in in the center of one of the most posh resident residential areas in all of Southern California. And those people really didn't like having that noisy helicopter rattle over their houses at three o'clock in the morning. And and so they canceled. One day they canceled the program. And all the nurses had come from the ER, so they it was easy for them. We had four pilots in the lear in the learjet and four in the helicopter, and of course we were all on the street. They they gave us a nice severance, but I ended up in Michigan flying at 412 for care flight for a while, and then um ended up back in the jet business until late in my career when I got talked into going to work for Native Air by a buddy of mine who had gone to work there, and he said, Hey, this is great, you ought to try this. And I thought, why not? And um and that was five years of a totally different experience for me. So this you know, there I was out there in this A star getting dragged out of bed at three o'clock in the morning and going to halfway to Albuquerque, and um of course you can imagine down in that country at three o'clock in the morning. Once you leave the lights of Phoenix, there aren't any lights until you get to Albuquerque.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And um, and I thought I'm uh the whole five years I thought, what do I do? Why am I out here? I know better. And but I I stayed with it because I loved the job, I loved what we were doing. You know, we had so many, so many missions that were memorable. Um and so I I just stayed with it and uh and it and accumulated a lot of uh pretty hairy experiences in the process, which you guys all know about and uh from the book, where you know about the hairiest ones. But it I think it was maybe one of the most significant that five years was maybe one of the most significant periods in my life in terms of the challenges that that that never went away. I mean, when you showed up for a shift, this is what you were gonna do. And uh which is you know kind of what brought us all together here. We're all we're all dealing with that challenge and knowing, as we've all agreed, there's it's not ever going to get any better. And so the only the only uh choice we have is to figure out internal disciplines, sharing with our uh partners to hopefully minimize the uh the uh exposure to hazard. And I I mean I think it's a it's a it's a it's one of the most fascinating experiences. It certainly was one of the most fascinating experiences in my entire career in terms of human factors. And and and and you know, I I started writing for vertical right when Mike Reno started the magazine, and and on and off have been working with vertical ever since then. Anyway, I'm it I'm I'm really I'm I'm I'm happy and honored to be here with you guys to try to bring the pilot perspective, EMS pilot perspective into what is a uh situation we all know is tough. It's just tough. And it's never gonna get any better. Um and and and so we have these constant conversations about well, what are we gonna do? And the answer is we're gonna somehow have to figure out how to fly and operate safely and take care of patients. I it's I I think it's a fascinating thing that we all know this is a big problem. We all know there isn't anything we can do about it, and and yet it's it's that's the way it's always gonna be. Um you know, the Europeans fly EMS in such a different way. They fly EC-145's two-pilot IFR. And and so for them, there's no, they don't care. It's they're just like a jet charter company. They fly night or day, it doesn't matter. They have a very structured set of rules of how they do it. They figure out how to, you know, do an IFR departure and then figure out how to do an approach to somewhere close to the scene, and either work their way over to the scene or land somewhere and you uh and that's brings them to passion. And and they've got it down, it's an airline. And uh and you think, well, we or so will we ever have that in this country? No, we won't. Yeah. The majority of this business is gonna continue to be community-based flying. So so I think we'll I I think it's incumbent on us to continue to have these conversations in every venue we can find. And and keep and that's and you keep the awareness up that this is, hey guys, this is not normal. This is not a normal existence. It is it is fraught with challenges that we have to meet every day, every night, if we're gonna stay alive. It's I mean, it's that simple. It's not, well, how do we stay happy in our job? It's how do we stay alive?

SPEAKER_06

And I mean that's a much that's a much more fun little pursuit when you think about it. Yeah. Um I mean, I'm happy if I'm alive, so I'm I'm good with that. If I can find a way to do it, stay safe and be alive. I think that would keep me happy.

SPEAKER_05

When you and when you think about it, we we keep circling back around in this dialogue in what we're talking about. The only possible mitigating circumstance that we can bring to this is we have to have a constant awareness that we're living on the edge. And that we have to depend on our own skills and discipline to make that flight at three o'clock in the morning work out right for us and the patient.

SPEAKER_04

Another important takeaway right there, uh, that is what you just said, Woody, is so important. We have to depend on ourselves. It's not gonna be the boss, it's not gonna be the captain, it's not gonna be, you know, the owner. It's it comes down to us. You know, are we ready? Are we are are we prepared for this? Are we is our fatigue affecting us in a way that's that uh that is not good? Uh we have to police ourselves and and and work on it individually. Because you're right, it's not going to come from outside or the top, you know. They just don't like this topic.

SPEAKER_01

The lessons learned from these conversations will undoubtedly shape the future of both new and veteran helicopter operators.

SPEAKER_06

How many of your supervisors are like, hey, did you nap today?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

I haven't seen you nap. I need you to go, I need you to go take a nap for like an hour and a half before you come back and and get your TPS reports in.

SPEAKER_04

Exactly. Oh, nobody's nobody's saying that. No, nobody says that. Uh that's funny. What would do you you brushed on it, and we're not going to let you off the hook here. You brushed on, well, it's in the book. Well, what book is that? And it means that Woody McClendon is a author. Tell us about the book. Mike held it up because we've had we have the book. What's that?

SPEAKER_05

We all have it.

SPEAKER_04

There's no way to get it. So we want to talk about it. But the point is, yeah, what we we have it. So and and you but you authored a book about your your wisdom and your experiences. And that's important. That's important that you were that it was probably good therapy for you to write all that down, too, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_05

Wisdom is not a word that's in that book.

SPEAKER_04

Well, it's something I took from the book is uh that you have wisdom.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, wisdom is uh not not part of the story. Well, thanks for for that, Woody. I hope that makes sense. I trust that makes sense to you guys. It's um I I think that's that's the reason we're here right now is to is to have another have an exercise in upping the awareness of our community so that you know we realize this is an unusual thing we do.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And and it demands that we all be the pilots in particular. I mean, you guys are always on your game. I mean, I've admired med crews for years about you think, God, these guys are taking somebody that's pretty much dead, and they're delivering them to a trauma center in good shape. And I and doing it in the back of a helicopter. My God, what a you can never you can never make enough, you can never tell enough about that and and w what you guys do. Uh I think our the pilot's job is pretty simple, just don't don't kill anybody and uh get them there.

SPEAKER_06

That's insanely humbling, Woody, for you to say that. But I think the fact that you wrote a book and you say wisdom isn't in the book, but uh I truly believe that just reading it alone and the fact that you were able to take all the experience that you've had and take those stories and those things, I guarantee you I'm thank you for sending a copy. And to I know I'm gonna learn something. Yep. And you know what? Like I always say that I lead by like, hey, I'll show you kind of what not to do, you know. You know, like, hey, this didn't work out well, don't do that, right? So I know that for a fact that you know, I think it's awesome that not only were you able to take the years of experience, and I'm I'm calling you experienced, um, that you were able to put pen to paper and get the thoughts out there. And I'm I'm I'm very excited to uh start reading it. I have one book to finish, I have just a couple chapters, and then I will be starting yours. And um I think it's great to give back to give back to this industry. And we I give a lot of kudos to pilots, you know. Um imagine if you had to not only do medical stuff, but then also pilot. Like if you had to do all that. Uh you need to go fly there, then go take care of the patient. Oh like you guys do uh a hell of a lot and and you do it well. Uh you're I think you're better weather forecasters than some of the weather forecasts out there. Just going there is zero question about that. And the training that you guys get is insane. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So I'm I'm last of the four. I'll just give a quick thumbnail and just say that uh I spent uh 36 plus years in law enforcement. 31 of that was with LAPD, 19 of that was at air support division versus a tactical flight officer, chief TFO for a short time, and then a pilot for my last 16 years uh on the job. And um it was air support, it was the greatest place. I mean, you can't beat it, both as a TFO and as a pilot. Wonderful experience. Uh got to do a lot of really cool stuff and um and got to travel a little bit with a class that I taught, and I started teaching, kind of like you know, you guys, Blake, you you were just doing it today. I can relate to that. I did a lot of that over the years, and the nice the best thing about teaching over those years was meeting incredible people from other agencies and learning about how they did things, what they did, what equipment they used, and creating friendships that would have never happened if I wasn't teaching. Uh I thought of that when you were talking of uh the how wonderful that's been. Um I taught a class for about 26 years called Apprehending Fleeing Suspects. This year is my last year doing that. Um matter of fact, the likely to be the very last class I do is gonna be at Echo in Philadelphia in September.

SPEAKER_08

Um last one. Wow.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. Um I'm gonna do it with Clay Lacey. We're doing a two-day, and that's probably gonna be it. There, there's one other one that might come up. I can't don't want to even talk about because I don't want to do anymore, but I might have to, for certain reasons, twist your arm a little bit. Yeah, I might have to. It's a volunteer one that I that I care about, and it might come up if asked. I might go. But Echo is gonna be scheduled-wise, that's gonna be the last one. So anyway, I just take that experience of flying uh and spending a lot of time on graveyard shift during that 31 years in in LA. I mean, in patrol, that's where I spent my time in canine five years straight, you know, and then a bunch of my of my 19 years, uh, I think over half of it was was on graveyards. And so that's the perspective I'm coming from on the topic that we're talking about today. And we'll get into more of that as we go along here. But um, thanks for the background. So I think that's important for our listeners to hear. So let's let's talk about this. How how does fatigue influence readiness? Mike, why did you capture that one?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, I think this is uh multifaceted in in so many routes, and I'm gonna take it from the med crew perspective and just from my own experiences in life. And I look back at, you know, there's those days that I wake up and maybe I don't get an opportunity to get my coffee before I, you know, take that 20-minute drive into work. And and I get there and I'm just not feeling it for the day, and I go through a morning brief and I'm like, man, I'm exhausted. And I might do a half-assed check of my gear. I was here two days ago. It's fine. There's no big deal. They only had one flight since then, you know, not a problem. And I don't put myself in this right mindset to actually go out there and not only take care of patients, but take care of my team and be ready to go. And I think that that just carries over, you know, when we talk about fatigue, it just it it affects every single thing that you do when you're on shift, when you're on your way to work, when you leave after the end of your shift. And, you know, from uh we we can talk about the scientific aspect of it, right? Like how it slows down your um your ability to work under pressure, you're you fall off that human performance curve. It slows down your ability to react to those situations that you're dealing with, to those patient changes that are happening in front of you, slows down your awareness to all of those things that are happening around you. So certainly there's a scientific, but when I'm just tired, my body just doesn't want it. Like I can't get into it. Um, and then when you compound that with having to get up in the middle of the night when it's four o'clock in the morning, and my partners will tell you time and time again if I wake up hungry and tired, look out. Those two factors together, it does not end well for anyone.

SPEAKER_06

But wait, so I'm not the only Cinderella?

SPEAKER_07

We're not calling me that. Maybe my partners probably would. They would probably agree with me on that. They carry emergency Scooby snacks for a reason. Oh, yeah. It's not for them. It's for Mike. Pretty much. That is exactly the fact. But it just slows down everything and it makes me feel like I am. And I think at times I don't realize it, but it gets me to the point physically where I just I don't function. Things don't flow right. Things don't move right. I can't, my, my, what normally should take me three seconds to do something is now taking me, you know, three minutes to to accomplish. Or I'm trying to do something, you know, and start an IV, which is on a patient that I should have no issues getting an IV on, and it's just not going well. It's not coordinated, it's not moving. Things just aren't happening. And then that frustrates me even more.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

And it takes me down this like spiral. And I can all relate it back to the fact that I'm walking into work feeling like I just need to go back to bed because I did not sleep well, because I was, even though I tried, was up all night because there's a million other things in life going on. And it just affects every aspect. And um I don't know. I just I I hate the way I feel when I'm tired. And I I can't get out of my own way sometimes.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's some this is a good time to mention this. That, you know, just in America tonight, there will be uh police officers working graveyard shift, you know, they'll be working tonight, and there will be thousands of traffic stops nationwide tonight, and many of them will be for suspected drunk driving. And many of those suspected drunk drivers haven't had a drink. It's fatigue. It's identical. When you're looking at what you think, oh, look at this guy. This is a drunk driver. I got a drunk driver right here. Sometimes it is, but many times it's fatigue. They are just really tired and they're weaving and they're doing the same the same violations and the same. It's identical. And I've heard it before about fatigue and and drunk driving or and uh blood blood alcohol levels, but I don't remember the exact thing. If somebody knows, chime in here, but it's the equivalent of having a couple, a few drinks. I mean, if you if you think about it that way, of course it's gonna affect your readiness, you know, where you just go, oh yeah, I don't I don't need to check that. It's just like after a few drinks, you don't feel like that. It's it's really interesting how it affects you physically, mentally, emotionally, all sorts of things go on. Uh but um yeah it's it's it's fatigue is a powerful thing. And when you are messing with it and not getting the sleep, not intentionally not getting, you're trying to get it, but you don't get the good sleep, and now you're doing a very important and skilled job, whether it's flying the aircraft or working on a patient, it doesn't matter. You could be the person on the fuel truck that's fueling the aircraft at two in the morning. And if they're not fueling it, that could be a problem. I mean, yeah, it doesn't matter what the the job is. It just happens that we're on the Valor Flight Crew podcast and the Hanger Z podcast talking about law enforcement and and public safety aviation. It doesn't matter what your job is. You could be a truck driver. There's a great example. Truck drivers. Oh my gosh. They drive related, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're they're working this shift constantly. And, you know, they deal with this issue as much as we do. And they can they have to be in their game too, or it could be a catastrophe, you know, and there are there are accidents, but I think it's important for everybody that's listening to to remember that how powerful this this is. Any any Blake, anything you want to add about uh in how it influences readiness?

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, uh it uh as we were talking about it, I was thinking like I don't really know what it was like when I felt rested. Like I haven't really felt rested in a long time. Wow, you know, and and like let's be honest, like how many other people could say that exact same thing? How many nurses have been like, man, I got like 10 hours of sleep, I had two days off. I am ready for like 10 patients today. Like, no, I don't think anybody's saying that. Um, like you guarantee yeah, it's not happening. But it's it it it's in the medical field, it's in truck driving, it's in the shift work, whether you work in a factory, like so. We know that fatigue is everywhere, we know that everybody's tired, everybody is tired, right? Okay, so if I don't know what it was like to feel rested or well rested, I should say. Um then if everyone else is feeling the same way, so if that's the normalization then of like how we're gonna show up to work and do things, how do we fix that? And I think when I think of it like exactly what Mike was saying, how does it affect me being ready? Well, I like a routine, I wake up 4 30 or so in the morning, I try to have, I set myself up for like I want my quiet time in the morning, I have my coffee, I do my reading, I do my study, and then I get ready for work, and then I come into work. And then what's the one thing that throws me off is you walk in and that those tones drop and you get a flight request. Well, I didn't have time to check the aircraft yet. Well, I hope it was good, you know, because I'm like, ah, well, they were on yesterday, they didn't really have any flights. I'm pretty sure they checked that aircraft real well. But if I was coming in after Mike, no offense, uh, he's like, well, the aircraft didn't move for two days, so it's gotta be good. I was the last one there two days ago, so I know everything is okay. Like, I think it just snowballs, you know, and and we have sleep debt, we have like that I don't know, fatigue debt is really a a a word. Um, but it it it culminates and it it snowballs. And if it doesn't affect me, maybe my actions will affect the next people coming onto that shift, right? Like you said, the guy fueling the aircraft. Yeah. Sure hope he put in the right gas. Yeah. You know? Oh, yeah. Uh I think it's it's it's so cumulative in all the things that we do. And and maybe my fatigue doesn't directly affect me, but maybe it affects the next people coming on shift. That readiness, uh, just it's how the cards were. No one needed my help that day. So I gotta wait.

SPEAKER_04

Uh it's true in public safety, it's certainly true in law enforcement too, where you're depending on that crew ahead of you. Did they have it together? You know, did they check this stuff? Did they do a post-flight? Uh and I would imagine, especially in in the uh hem's world, that you know, all the equipment and all the supplies, it's it's a flying ambulance, right? I mean, all those supplies is is everything topped off? Is everything there? So that if you need it, I mean, that must be a huge thing. And and now, so now you're maybe you're coming in on daywatch, and now you're hoping that the people that were overnight and are definitely fatigued, you know, that you're trusting them, right? I mean, you're putting a lot of trust in them to to do the right thing and and do do the procedures and and all that.

SPEAKER_06

And and I think Woody would would attest to this for flying and being around med crews. We know we're a special bunch, but you know that crew that was up all night. So when you know when Dave crew comes in and they're all like, hey guys, what's up? And like the overall tone is just like nobody's saying anything, and you're like, uh, you're like rough night. And they're like, Yeah, we're up all night. I think I got everything put back. Yes. So so like you're kind of like, hmm, now I gotta be on my game a little bit, right?

SPEAKER_04

Talk about that, Woody.

SPEAKER_02

You have a lot of experience in that area. Talk about that. Thanks for joining us for this episode of the Hanger Z podcast. Don't forget to like and subscribe to hear more stories that promote the personnel and equipment behind the missions in public safety aviation. Lastly, stand by for a message after we're from our sponsors. Cheers.

SPEAKER_01

Bell is proud to sponsor vertical helicasts and their vision to hold meaningful mission, safety, and best practice conversations in the helicopter industry. The lessons learned from these conversations will undoubtedly shape the future of both new and veteran helicopter operators.

SPEAKER_03

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SPEAKER_02

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SPEAKER_04

As we wrap up this episode, we want to thank you for joining us for this important conversation about fatigue. Fatigue is one of the most significant threats in aviation safety, yet it remains one of the hardest hazards to identify and address. The more we learn about fatigue, its effects, and the way we can mitigate its impact, the safer our crews, organizations, and missions will be. One of the key takeaways from this discussion is that managing fatigue is not solely the responsibility of an individual air crew member, nor is it solely the responsibility of management. It requires commitment and engagement at every level of an organization, from the newest crew member all the way to the executive leadership. Fatigue must openly be discussed, honestly assessed, and continuously evaluated if we're serious about improving safety. But perhaps the most important point that emerged from this conversation is that we cannot depend entirely on those outside the aircraft to manage our fatigue for us. As Blake said so perfectly, we all need to have difficult conversations with ourselves. That honest look in the mirror may be the most effective fatigue mitigation tool we have. It requires self-awareness, humility, and the willingness to acknowledge when we are not at our best. Those conversations are not always easy, but they are essential to protecting ourselves, our crews, and the people we serve. Thank you to Mike, Blake, and Woody for sharing their experiences, insights, and expertise. And thank you to all of you for listening and being part of this ongoing effort to make aviation safer. Until the next time, stay safe and never underestimate the danger you can't see fatigue.