SPEAKER_08

The Hangers E Podcast welcomes Mike Fidale, Blake Schreider, and Woody McClendon for a panel discussion on fatigue.

SPEAKER_05

We don't get a good night's sleep. We are fighting with our spouse. Our kids were playing all day long and kept us up. The dog wouldn't stop barking throughout the day. Whatever this may be, right? Like there's all of these external factors, or maybe we had a really busy weekend because we had to go to all these kids' events. Whatever it may be, we show up to work thinking we're in this good headspace, that we got enough sleep, or we know for a fact we probably didn't, and we're just banking on the fact that, you know what, it's okay. I only got three hours of sleep. I'm gonna be able to nap when I get to work, right? Like and and I think that we we trick ourselves on this daily basis of thinking that we're not really as tired as what we actually are. And we come up with every excuse of why we can do it, but we refuse to think of a reason why we shouldn't.

SPEAKER_08

Welcome back to the Hangers E podcast, brought to you by Vertical Helicast and partner with Vertical Valor Plus. Today's episode is a special collaboration with our friends from the Valor Flight Crew Podcast, and we're tackling a topic that impacts every one of us in aviation. Fatigue. Joining us for this outstanding panel discussion are the hosts of the Valor Flight Crew Podcast, Mike Fidale and Blake Schreider. We are also honored to welcome a highly respected aviator with decades of experience, former HEMS pilot Woody McClendon. Fatigue is truly the danger you can't see. Unlike weather, mechanical issues, or other operational hazards, fatigue can quietly affect our judgment, decision making, situational awareness, and overall performance long before we recognize its impact. Whether you're a pilot, TFO, crew member, mechanic, dispatcher, or supervisor, fatigue affects all of us in different ways. And it becomes an even greater challenge when working shift schedules, commonly throughout public safety aviation. The reality is that fatigue is not a possibility, it is an inevitability. The question is not if fatigue will contribute to an incident or accident in public safety aviation, but when. That is why open and honest conversations like this one are so important. In this episode, we'll discuss safety initiatives designed to mitigate fatigue, the role of flight risk assessment tools, crew readiness, organizational responsibility, and personal accountability. Most importantly, our panel shares real-world experiences and lessons learned from careers spent operating in demanding environments where fatigue was often a constant factor. This is a candid, informative, and thought-provoking discussion that every aviation professional should hear. So settle in and join us as we explore one of the most significant and often overlooked threats to aviation safety. This is the Hangers D Podcast in collaboration with the Valor Flight Crew Podcast. And the conversation begins right now. Thank you to our sponsors, Metro Aviation, Robinston Helicopter, and Shot Over.

SPEAKER_02

Welcome to the Hangers D Podcast, brought to you by Vertical Helicast. The Hangers D Podcast is the first and only podcast dedicated to promoting and exploring the personnel and equipment behind the missions in public safety aviation.

SPEAKER_01

So Southbound is getting to a stop. Okay, the guy he's running through the house, jumping the fence, through the shotgun, through something out, grabbing the shotgun. Don't go over that fence, don't go over that fence, grab the shotgun again. He is armed, stay there, hold your position.

SPEAKER_08

It's true in public safety. It's certainly true in law enforcement too, where you're depending on that crew ahead of you. Did they have it together? You know, did they check this stuff? Did they do a post-flight? Uh and I would imagine, especially in in the uh Hems world, that you know, all the equipment and all the supplies, it's it's a flying ambulance, right? I mean, all those supplies is is everything topped off? Is everything there? So that if you need it, I mean, that must be a huge thing. And and now so now you're maybe you're coming in on daywatch, and now you're hoping that the people that were overnight and are definitely fatigued, you know, that you're trusting them, right? I mean, you're putting a lot of trust in them to to do the right thing and and do do the procedures and and all that.

SPEAKER_04

And and I think Woody would would attest to this for flying and being around med crews. We know we're a special bunch, but you know that crew that was up all night. So when you know when Dave Crew comes in and they're all like, hey guys, what's up? And like the overall tone is just like nobody's saying anything, and you're like, uh, you're like rough night. And they're like, Yeah, we're up all night. I think I got everything put back. Yes. So so like you're kind of like, hmm, now I gotta be on my game a little bit, right?

SPEAKER_08

Talk about that, Woody. You have a lot of experience in that area. Talk about that.

SPEAKER_06

I mean, I I think it's a huge challenge. Um my experience with fatigue as well is that you I end up in a really dark mood. I have a really negative attitude. And I'm not a particularly nice person on a good deal, on a good day, but uh but I you know I I found I would have to I had to work very hard when you got rotated in the nights to to be civil. And I thought you you do you owe it to you have to do this, you owe it to these guys to be civil. You've got that's the only way you're gonna get through this, and you don't have a right not to be civil. It was that big an internal challenge for me. And and I think I did a pretty good job of it. And they everybody seemed to pretty much everybody like me. And uh and the more I got into the particularly the native air experience where we're we're we're we were so close together, you you you develop a deep respect for your med crew teammates. Uh they said watching what they do, you think these are amazing people, and they're they're living in the same shit environment you are, you know, in terms of rest and challenge. And and so let's let's stay close. That's our the only way that we can save ourselves is to be close and and and positive to each other, supportive. And and um you're right, Jack. I think that it's the it nobody teaches you that. I mean, I haven't been around your medical business and the employment employee side for a long time, but from what I know from my friends, it hasn't the employee training hasn't changed that much. They they love to avoid the dark side of what the people do. But it becomes a challenge, a personal challenge for each person on that team to say to themselves, okay, I'm I'm tired. This job is really tough. But I the last thing I need to do is take this out on my buds on the shift. You know, they're we're all in the boat, the same boat together. We we gotta take we gotta take care of each other. And I saw pilots and you guys have seen pilots that really have not thought that through. And they come to work grumpy, and and you know, I I remember seeing guys come, uh, you know, if I was on a day shift and you one of the guys is coming in at night and he's grumpy, and you think, you don't have the right to do that. You do not have the right to do that. But I I I think in in trying to answer the question here, Jack, I think we each have to realize we take in this in that kind of job, you take on a huge personal responsibility to support your teammates. So uh and if you and if you ignore that responsibility, again, like some a lot of pilots, a lot of pilots I do, uh, you do so at everybody's risk. Because you know, it's if things really do start to unwind, um you know, with the aircraft or the weather or whatever, you you really need to be bonded very tightly with each other and and to get yourselves out of the mess. So I yeah, anyway, that's that's my thought.

SPEAKER_08

No, that kind of leads into something that I that uh Mike that you made is one of the points we wanted to talk about. I I think this might be one of the most important things we talk about. Fatigue self-assessments in the presence of a mission request. There there are external pressures, there's internal pressures, there's personal pressures to get the job done. We we wouldn't be in this business if we weren't the type of people that want to go help people and get the job done. But in in flying and in aviation, there's another layer there that comes into play. We want to get there every time, but there's times when maybe we shouldn't go. Uh talk about a uh the fatigue self-assessment. What what what uh when when you mentioned that topic, what what does that mean to you? And what are the things that maybe you do personally to self-assess?

SPEAKER_05

So I I think I'd like to start that with a question back to you, Jack, in saying when those tones go off, is has there ever been a time for you, or when that call for help comes out, has there ever been a time for you where you have not felt more of an internal pressure to get out that door and go help?

SPEAKER_08

No. That pressure was always there.

SPEAKER_05

And so I think that's where like this was was coming from. I think that's exactly what all of us feel, right? Like that that is the natural, that is that is the beast of this industry. That is when when the call comes in, we go. And we feel that internal pressure to do this. And, you know, there's uh if you think back or you if you listen back to one of the podcasts that we had with uh with Russell, talking about some of those pressures to fly, you know, part of that is because of referring to all of these as missions, right? It is a mission that we have to go out the door, right? It's that verbiage that goes with it. It puts that added pressure. And I think that for a lot of us, we still do that internally every single day. Um look, at the end of the day, life happens, right? We don't get a good night's sleep. We are fighting with our spouse. Our kids were playing all day long and kept us up. Uh, the dog wouldn't stop barking throughout the day. Uh, whatever this may be, right? Like there's all of these external factors. Or maybe we had a really busy weekend because we had to go to all these kids' events. Whatever it may be, we show up to work thinking we're in this good headspace, that we got enough sleep, or we know for a fact we probably didn't, and we're just banking on the fact that you know what, it's okay. I only got three hours of sleep. I'm gonna be able to nap when I get to work, right? Like and and I think that we we trick ourselves on this daily basis of thinking that we're not really as tired as what we actually are. Yeah. And we come up with every excuse of why we can do it, but we refuse to think of a reason why we shouldn't. Bingo. And you nailed it there, Mike. I I think that's what I that's what I struggle with sometimes. And and I think going back to that, you know, difficult internal conversation that Blake was talking about is just we have to have that honest conversation. Am I safe to go to work right now? Am I safe to jump in, you know, a multi-million dollar helicopter, go flying around at you know, 3,000, 4,000, 5,000 feet in the dark, and be safe doing it? Am I safe right now at three o'clock in the morning, as tired as I am, to go give a dying patient their last chance at getting to definitive care? Am I in the right headspace? Have I gotten enough rest? Am I doing the right things necessary to take care of that patient? And I think that we we trick ourselves because we have those internal pressures, because our adrenaline goes off and we're like, all right, I'm good, I'm ready to do this, let's get on it. Is that really what the case is? And and I I think what I struggle with even more is going back to thinking about some of these um flights. And and and if there was an article that was in Vertical Magazine the end of March uh related to and talking about the FAA study that just came out. So with the study that was done by the FAA looking specifically at fatigue and in the Hems environment, it was interesting to me reading through that that I don't think we really um learned anything groundbreaking about what was expected. We know that, especially when you get to day four, night four, you know, that your reaction times slow down, that um you can certainly see the the inertia kicking in when you have to wake up at three o'clock in the morning and suddenly be on your game. But it's like it takes you a long time to wake up, and it can be the equivalent of being drunk in that moment, right?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And so I think what struck me as so incredibly um groundbreaking when when you look at both the report from that FAA study, and then I also think back to a podcast that we did with Russell Griffin before, in that statistically the most dangerous leg of the flight is RTB. Yep. And when you look at that study, that the pilots that were surveyed in that study felt the greatest fatigue on the RTB leg.

SPEAKER_08

Why do you think that is, Mike? As as a crew member, why do you think that is? I I bet it's the same, I'll bet it's the same for you, but why why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_05

The adrenaline wears off.

SPEAKER_08

That's right.

SPEAKER_05

The fatigue kicks right our true fatigue state is happening then, right? Yes. We can finally let our guard down, we can finally relax, we can finally, you know, breathe. And we let our guard down.

SPEAKER_08

That's right. The adrenal the adrenaline dump has occurred. You had it, you had that adrenaline, glucose, cortisol, and now, well, we we accomplished the mission. I I'm sorry, I used that bad word again. Yeah. Mission. Uh you accomplished what you're what you were you were sent to do, and you're you're glad maybe it was a great success, but it's done.

SPEAKER_05

But it and it all goes back to we we're we're at this point where we are fighting to stay awake, and it's because we never did a proper assessment of our own fatigue to begin with.

SPEAKER_09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

We never did the preparation to get to work in the right state of mind, in the right physical and emotional and intellectual way to be present and be accountable for ourselves and to to do the job to the expectations that each and every patient has of us.

SPEAKER_06

I want to jump into this like I think, you know, our lives don't allow us you know, again, when you talk about like this horrible four-night stretch, which all of us remember or I remember with far too starkly. Uh but but the job doesn't allow us to to live in a real world. If you were gonna if it was gonna be the the ideal thing that situation where you would be rested, you would go, you would leave your job, you would go somewhere, you'd go to you'd get something to eat, and you would sleep, you would get up and you'd come back to work. And that we all live we have lives to live. Yeah, and absolutely so that's not gonna that's just not gonna happen. That's not reality. No, it's not. And so and certainly by night four, everybody is mentally spent, and there's not there's nothing you can do about it. You can't change your life to fix that. And and that just all that does is just make this whole, you know, the more we it's kind of funny, the more we talk about this whole thing. We're realizing that, you know, if you're in that job, you're stuck in a situation that is incredibly tough. Yeah. And and you and you just have to figure out how to do how to get through the shift and possibly have to do some, maybe some of the most demanding work you've ever had to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

But but Woody, I think that that's when that internal pressure, that that lack of self-assessment of how fatigued we truly are only gets worse because we start going in the spiral of no, I can do this, or no, I don't want to let my crew down, or no, I don't want to let my patient down. And and we start getting into this like hyped up state that we get ourselves to the point where like, yeah, I'm I'm I'm okay. I can I can do this because I don't want to let somebody else down. So it's internal pressures. Yeah, it's a real spiral.

SPEAKER_06

And um I I again, I think we're we're just pointing out we're pointing out the situation where there aren't any answers.

SPEAKER_04

I I think there's more questions than than than than than answers.

SPEAKER_06

And and that's okay. You know, 90% of the time, as I remember, if you did a self-assessment, you'd go like, I'm tired of shit. I'm really tired. And and I'm unhappy that I'm here and I'm looking out at two o'clock in the morning and going, like, my god, why am I going out there?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. We're all guilty of it. Yeah. Oh. Yep. And I think if we if we did that, then we probably wouldn't just go at all, you know? Yep.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

Assessment would say I I shouldn't be doing this.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

So where would you take that with your management? I've done a self-assessment and I'm tired. I can't fly.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, but it's the it's the fifth one this week. Woody, why can you not continue to go? It's the fifth time that according to the self-assessment that you can't go. Is it your fault? Or is it the is it just the nature of this business? You know, it's a lot of different things. And and and Woody, you you said it earlier. It's like that that self discipline, those like it's my responsibility to be as prepared as I can to come in and do the work, you know, that's asked of me. But I almost I I do think that leading into how we make things better is I I think it's important for operators and employers like to understand that like this does have a cumulative effect. Like our body, like I eat nothing but like trash food, which I do, um like my body like it's only gonna last so long, you know, like until something gives. I can only push it so far. So if we continue to do that, like we we just we have to find a way to to make ways to to mitigate that. And and Woody, I wanted to ask you when you were flying out in um Albuquerque native air, we you had long, and Mike was talking about it, those return to base legs are the most dangerous because we let our guard down, but you had you had correct me if I'm wrong, long return to base legs, right? An hour? Maybe more.

SPEAKER_02

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SPEAKER_04

Well, from the scene, you mean? No, so like you do the flight, you drop the patient out of the hospital, but then now you gotta get back to base.

SPEAKER_06

Oh no, because our bases were all well. Yeah, you're right. I mean, like uh Yeah, I was at Payson for about three of the five years, and Payson was Payson's 90 miles from Phoenix. Yeah, so you drop a patient and you gotta turn around and fly back up into the mount mountains again to get back to the and you're tired.

SPEAKER_04

So I almost wonder like I'll be honest, most of my return to base legs are like five minutes if I stay local, right? What's gonna happen in five minutes? You know, I'm tired. Ah, whatever. I'll make it back. Yeah. Like I almost wonder if the I almost wonder if the the real problem is are these shorter flights the more dangerous than the 90 minutes back through the mountains? Like, do you do you do you squeeze every last bit of like attention of or or focus that you have because you know you're going somewhere that takes a longer time to get there, it takes more focus. And like Mike said, we have these shorter return to base legs. Do I just say, yo, I'm climbing in the back, man, you're up front on this one. Well, I just put the the same equally tired guy up front. Now I'm trying to, I think I'm doing something good by saying, hey, I'm not at my best. I think I need to sit in the back on this one. And now the other, now my partner's like, well, damn, I don't feel that great, but I guess I better get up front because if he doesn't feel good, someone's got to do it, right?

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And the pilot's like, man, if these two guys are tired, I'm the only one that can fly us back. I guess I better, you know, suck it up and and and get back. So are we really having those honest conversations? And and what would it look like if we said, hey, the three of us right now are not good to fly back to base. It's only a six-minute flight. Takes courage to do that, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, and nobody's gonna do it because they know our brain down hate and fire up.

SPEAKER_05

I want to go back to the story that you talk that you were mentioning before, Jack, because I I feel it needs to be said, um, you know, when you had that moment where you nodded off in the helicopter, and if if you have not, if there are whoever is listening, I don't care if you're in law enforcement, fire department, search and rescue, hems, if you have not had that moment, you will.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_05

And I agree. And I think that like that, that's that's what scares me because I know I personally have been there myself. And I'm like, man, I'm glad I'm not flying this thing. Right. Because I am exhausted right now.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

One of the few times I've been like, man, I'm glad I'm not a pilot. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04

I guess I'll sit in the back.

SPEAKER_05

You know, our job is just as important. We need to be eyes out, we need to be looking around. Like, this is a team effort.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah. I I can tell you, even in canine, you know, we'd be on a long night, you know, you get there, and at before you even start your watch at 200, you're already going to a search, and now you go to four searches that night and you're exhausted. And now it's 0,400. I mean, you are tired. And we would drive home, and several of us, a whole bunch of us, lived north of the city in the same community. And I remember I will never mention his name on the air, but he wouldn't know if he's listening. I followed a certain handler more than once that I know was burning the candle at both ends all the time. For the right reasons, by the way. It was all about his family, all about his boys. And I was involved in half of it, you know, coaching and stuff. Um and we were both doing it at a time. But I followed him some nights where I was I was truly concerned for his life. Where I actually got on the radio and yelled at him one time and said, Hey, and you know, and I know what was happening. He was on the nod. I and we'd get to a stoplight and it would turn green. And I'd be right on his bumper, you know. We're going up, we lived within a mile of each other. I'd be right on his bumper, the light turns green, and nothing happens. I know what's going on in that car, you know, because I've been there too. So it's just reality. It's the way our body works. We there's only so much we can do about it. And everybody here has brought it up about life. Life gets in the way. You can do everything right. And it's still, there's still things that you you cannot control when it comes to fatigue. It's just the way we're wired. Your your body, the circadian rhythm rhythms, those are real. I heard a supervisor at LAPD Air Support say, that's a bunch of mumbo jumbo crap. Uh no, it's proven science over and over and over and over again. Uh, and that was the person that didn't like anybody sleeping, um, you know, at all, even for 20 minutes. Close your eyes for 20 minutes to see. Oh, geez, God forbid. Uh, but they didn't understand that you can do everything right and still need that that 20 minutes to close your eyes because you may get called out again. It's something you guys can relate to. Um, you know, there's there's a lot of stuff going on in our bodies physiologically that that we can that we know about, but we can't really control completely. Well this is an example. I just asked my wife about this today. It's called um the dawn phenomena. The dawn phenomena. And what it is is when the when light comes up in the morning, nothing, you haven't eaten anything yet. Nothing. It's just the light has reappeared. Your body dumps glucose. It's it's the way it is. You could be fasting for three days, and every time the light comes up, the light comes up in the morning, your body's gonna dump glucose. Not because you ate something, but because that's how your body works. I mean, it's it's amazing the things that happen in our in our systems from you know thousands and thousands and you know of years. Uh and fatigue is one of those. And that's why it's kind of frustrating, isn't it? I mean, I I got frustrated for with fatigue where I'm thinking, man, I'm doing everything right, and I still feel like crap. Blake, you mentioned it multiple times tonight.

SPEAKER_05

Our bodies are not built to be up at all hours like that.

SPEAKER_08

They're not. It's not. And it's like, well, what can we do about it? Um, and a lot of the theme tonight seems to be uh the the self-assessment thing. I I mean it right. I mean, it there's no policy procedure. It's kind of like we just gotta check ourselves, check our pilots and our crews, crews, and make sure we take care of each other and then you know get the job done if if we can. And and then having the courage to say no, I mean, that's it's hard.

SPEAKER_04

It's it's really hard to say no. Yeah. It is hard to say no, but I think that we have to have a shift of um and I've seen that at least where I'm at, and and if anyone else out there listening or to uh Mike, I have seen uh organizations welcome a uh crew rest, right? Yeah, absolutely. Um and what I've seen implemented is there's no question, there's no, hey, why are you doing this? No. You say you need crew rest, you get four hours. You don't have to take the four hours, uh, but you can take up to the four hours. And then at that point, if for whatever reason you're not good to go, well then it's time to go home at that point. There's something that was happening, there's something that's that was going on, well, we're gonna call it. Someone, if if if I need to go home, I'm gonna go home. I at least am very thankful that there has been an not only an implementation, but a reminder of from my superiors to hey guys, just so you know you have this ability to take this rest. And it's okay. And we'll fill it out. And and and a lot of it really is like data collection. And I think that one of the things that has come from that is to recognize maybe certain uh, you know, uh daily procedural type things that have kind of come into play to where they're like, you know what, maybe some of that doesn't make sense, and maybe we can maybe eliminate that, and that will cut back on like why did six crews take crew rest this week? Yeah, well, they got they got called the one specific area or whatever reason. Hey, let's look into that, you know. I think it's it's it's a very good step in the right direction. Yeah. Is that is that a recent change, Blake? It's been around now for probably the last, or I should say it's been more advocated for probably in the last three or four years. Um, because again, like like the reason why we're having this conversation, something has had to change, right? And and and when we talk about certain incidents, we don't it doesn't have to be a like a catastrophic or or fatal incident, but still little incidents with helicopters are very expensive. Yes, you know. Uh yeah you bump a fence, you know, you rip off an antenna, um, you know, all these other little things, they all add up, right? And and it doesn't have to be the the the big news-worthy incidents, it could be the ones that are day in and day out that cost a lot of money to fix, you know, windscreens, they're not cheap. Rotor blades, not cheap. I there's nothing cheap on an aircraft. So yeah, and and and those were things that were like, hey, why are we like just moving an aircraft in and out of a hangar? You could be anybody. Uh you law enforcement, fire, search, rescue, medical, just moving an aircraft when you're tired. And you you don't get a toe bar on correctly, or you don't get, you know, uh the skids gripped appropriately. Something can cause damage. And then that that adds up. Hey, Blake, why uh what were you doing uh on your wing walk? Sleeping. Yeah, you know, I wasn't there, you know, like those are the things that then they can add up. And and I'm very thankful for being part of an organization that has not only identified, hey, well, we're we're cutting a lot of checks. Uh let's try to figure out how to not do that so much. Uh, and it's also been embraced and to be like, hey, listen, if you're not good, go home. Okay. Yeah. We'll talk about it another day. I fully expect that if it's like my eighth shift in a row that I keep going home, well, obviously I'm the problem. Um, but I think it just it it garners like we we should have these conversations and and it's okay to be like, hey, why is this happening? We should fully embrace it, talk about it, and see if there's a way to figure it out. You know, bad guys that they don't they don't take nights off, you know. Uh you know, they things happen. People do things inherently. We all know dumb things happen after midnight.

SPEAKER_09

That's right.

SPEAKER_04

Everything, all the crazy stuff, like that, everything happens, nothing good happens after midnight, right? So we just have to be honest about the reality of those things. And I think as long as we we answer those risk assessments, the self-assessment, we have to be honest with ourselves. And that can hopefully help prevent the little things from becoming big incidents.

SPEAKER_08

Good. I'm gonna come to you, Woody, and then Mike, you're gonna follow him and give the current day answer to the question. Woody, back in the day, you know, a while back, what kind of risk assessment were you were you doing? I mean, when I mean, you know what risk assessment is today, because you you're you were st you're still in the industry. But what were you doing? And then I'm gonna come to Mike and ask what he's doing, and we're gonna compare the two.

SPEAKER_06

If you go back to Med Star in the 80s, yeah. We didn't there was no such thing.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah, nothing at all. No, nothing. And um so talk about that. I mean I don't want to interrupt you, but but talk about what that meant. The bell goes off, and there was there was you just went to the helicopter, started it, crew got in, and you went. There was no there was no discussion about A, B, C, D, E, F G. Nothing at all. You just went and get the job done.

SPEAKER_06

Right. Wow. I mean, there were there was no risk. I mean, that was back when life was simple and we didn't we didn't have nobody was worried about nobody thought about risk. Yeah. I'm not sure that maybe wasn't better because you know, listening to everything we're saying, we do we do all these risk assessments and we go and we decide I'm really not ready for this. And then we good good luck calling your company and say, well, I've done a risk assessment and I'm too tired to fly.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

You know, as we all know, you might get away with that one night. Not very often. Definitely not too. But you're gonna get some counseling and guidance. Well, we know what that is. So you y you know, again, you it's just this vicious we're going around in a circle about this job is very, very dangerous. And and uh and it's a challenge for the team members to be spun up and ready every night. And there and and that's it. I mean, there is no it's a it's a paradox that we that you live with when you're in this business. So um uh I mean the risk assessment came into vogue, you know. When I was at Native Bear, we we started doing these risk assessments, and we're all going like this is pretty funny. We're all going like, okay. So this is a you know, a giant paper exercise. So the company's has done a a a CYA drill. Yeah. And um and then if we all said if we checked all the boxes, hey, it's all okay, then it's on us if we screw up.

SPEAKER_07

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_06

And that's I think that's how we all felt. I'm not sure that's changed. I'm not sure that perception has changed much.

SPEAKER_08

Well, let's let's ask Mike. Mike, what talk about risk assessments today for both you know, you personally, where you work and what you what you do and your crew does, and and the industry. I mean, you you're around this industry, especially now with the podcast. You guys get to talk to people from all over the place. You go to Echo and what's the industry doing? What are you doing? How does it differ from what uh Woody just talked about?

SPEAKER_05

Yes, I I I think from my perspective, I think that it has changed a little bit. And one of the, you know, I can remember the days where that risk assessment was left at. And and because it wasn't that long ago, right? Like this was this is within the last five, 10 years in some organizations where you know the risk assessment was not maybe the the concept of it was there, uh, but it was more, it was it was a pilot thing. The the pilots took care of the risk assessment and the med crew, we just, you know, we we we get in and go. Um, to where I've seen the transition to today, where it's all crew members are part of that risk assessment. And I and I think if nothing else, that that risk assessment is an opportunity for each crew member to have that personal check-in every day, right? Um, it's an opportunity for your crew members. Maybe they don't need to know what's going on in your life, but they at least know that you have some external stressors that you're working through right now. So it can give them that opportunity to really have that awareness of where I'm at and what kind of external stressors I'm having, and maybe how much sleep I had earlier uh in the day and where I'm at as far as a mental state to be in this to win this, right? And and vice versa, me for my partners. And hopefully we can try to compensate for each other a little bit, identify what risks are a factor in this and mitigate them. And so I think for me, seeing in in both my organization and in the industry, that implementation across all crew members to have that, I think has been uh a very positive thing that I've been, you know, privy to at this point.

SPEAKER_00

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SPEAKER_05

The other positive thing that I'm hoping to start to see more of is the timeframe of when we're doing these assessments. Because this is not just about doing it at the beginning of your shift and forgetting about it for the rest of the time. Oh, we've got a good number. Let's go, right? I know you're laughing over there, Blake, but you know, really it and and and I I'm sure that my crew members are probably going to slap me next time they see me for saying this, but I really think that there at least should be the question asked. If not, it should be redone after every single flight. And I say after the flight, because if we're waiting to redo this assessment when I'm waking up at three o'clock in the morning to go on a call, I'm not going to either answer it correctly, or I'm not going to have the wherewithal about me to recognize where I'm at on that fatigue scale. And I'm also under the pressure at that point to take the flight. These risk assessments should be done when we're not under that pressure to take that flight. And I think that we're starting to see some of those trends moving in those directions because when you're in that moment, when you have that both now external and internal pressure. And I don't think that I'm not saying external pressure, like you have somebody breathing down your throat, you need to go on this transport. I'm saying that external pressure of, oh my God, the tones just went off. Somebody's expecting my help.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Right. That becomes an internal pressure then for us to sit there and say, I can go do this. So if we haven't thought about this beforehand, and that's a whole other topic that obviously we can go down, but I think that we're starting to see movement in that direction. And then I think when we talk about risk mitigation, I think that you're starting to see more of that integration of the medical crews into the aviation aspect of that transport, such as call and response, right? I don't know what's happening in the front of the aircraft, but when my pilot's asking me if I'm ready, I'm asking him about the engines. He's telling me we got two to fly and the gates are locked. And I'm saying we got doors belt and cabin secure in the back here. We're ready for takeoff. Right. So it has that call and response. And I think we're starting to see a lot more of some of those actions occurring that are keeping each other accountable even in the times when conditions aren't ideal. So I think that we are making progress.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

But I think that we still have a long way to go.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah. Wow. So this is a broad question, but it's because Lake and Mike, you you have contact with so many people. You don't have to name names our companies, but are there is there somebody out there? Are there companies, a company or companies out there in the Hems world where you go, that's what it all needs to be like? That's the shining light right there. That's they are really doing well or doing something different on this topic. Is there anything like that? Or is it pretty much you know, industry-wide, everybody's kind of in the same, the same mode?

SPEAKER_04

Yes, I think there are people that are doing it right. I think there are programs and there are there are areas of this country that are doing it right. And I think it's it's they're able to do it because their focus is like that's their focus, is to get it right the first time because you can actually make an impact and reach more patients and more crews, and you can you can do it right because you you're you're embracing that there's the human element to all the things, yeah, all the things that that we do. Yes, there are people that are that are doing it right. They're gonna fly dual pilot, but they're going to and even if they're not dual pilot, they're embracing that all three crew members, like you have to have all three to make that patient flight a success. And I I love that the fact that like not only from a med crew perspective, like we get a lot of aviation training, but I also Like that there are places that involve the pilot in medical training, right? Like just for awareness. Like I mean, Woody or Jack, I I'm sure we could show you how to start an IV. You'd be able to do it after a few times, you know. Um wouldn't want to be on the other end of it for a few times, but hey, you know, it's not gonna hurt you a bit, right? It'll be okay, Jack. Yeah. But but but just having the awareness, you know, um, just having awareness as a pilot of what your med crews are potentially gonna get into, right? If you you see the med crew coming back with the patient and all of a sudden they start doing compressions, you're like, ugh, this is probably gonna take a while, or this is gonna be a mess, or they're gonna be going through a lot, right? You know, so as a pilot, like like you're not just the driver of the helicopter, right? That like that's one aspect of it, but a lot of a shift in training. There are organizations out there that are incorporating everybody is just as equally important. You have different roles, but you are so integral that that it takes all three to make it a success. And it doesn't matter whether you're a nurse, pilot, medic, RT, whatever. And and I think if more if we recognize that more and embrace that and have those awareness of the things that each other is going through, I I think that that's pointing this whatever ship it is that we're on, I think it's at least getting us in that in that direction to to have these conversations and and do it safely.

SPEAKER_05

And and I think you bring up a really good point with that, which I was going to kind of turn back over to Jack then, in that I think we can probably in the Hems world, for the most part, take a lesson out of the PD playbook here, in that you know, you and your TFO do a lot of training together and prepare for things that you can tackle if something happens and hopefully have a positive outcome, right? Both aviation related and police related. But, you know, I and I think that it's worth discussing how that integration between the TFO and the pilot work up there, because I think for a lot of us on the hem side, we don't necessarily understand all of that integration and the work that you guys are doing. But then I also take that back to challenge our med crews in saying, how many of us are just sitting up front? Or when we're sitting up front, are we really paying attention to everything that's going on? Like if there's an emergency, how many of us can get to the right EP on the iPad and make sure our pilot has what we need?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08

That's important. Yeah. I and my department did a decent job at that and my time there. I mean, where they did emergency flight training for tactical flight officers, tried to get them to be able to take the controls and get to an airport and do a shallow approach to a run-on landing. That was the goal. That's a that's a good goal. I mean, some people caught on to that real quick, others struggled, but we we got it. Most could do it. That's a big thing. But there were times when we were screaming and saying, why aren't the TFOs being sent to Grand Prairie with us for simulator training? Why not? They're gonna be the ones that pulled the checklist out. You know, I have I I can't exactly for those just listening, Mike and Blake simultaneously showed the the money sign with their woody was easily thinking the exact same thing.

SPEAKER_04

He was. You know, it's it's it is it was all economics.

SPEAKER_08

So much of what we're talking about tonight is economics. You you just mentioned, oh, adding a second dual pilot. Why why wouldn't all med flights have that money? That's that simple. There's no one that can argue against it and say, well, that's not a good idea. No, it's only not a good idea in one category money. It costs you money. Right? There is no other argument that there is none that you could ever come up with and say, well, having a second pilot, that's not a good idea for the following 10 reasons. No, there's only one, and it's because you don't want to pay them. You don't want to have that expense. I get it. It's a it is a business at some point, but uh, you know, we we tried to to get our TFOs involved in as much as we can. Now, there are simulators out there, you know, that are available now where TFOs are getting in and getting a lot more experience than that. That's valuable. No doubt about that. But you know, it was a battle. It was a battle. And a lot, and again, it came back to time and money. Well, we don't have time to do that. But many agencies, many law enforcement agencies, you mentioned the emergency flight training to them, and they go, What's that? You know, you go, well, your TFOs can't don't know what to do? No. Do your TFOs carry the emergency checklist in their pocket? Why would they do that? They're they're TFOing. Because you have to have both hands on the controls. You can't pull that checklist out, you know? Yeah. And so you know your you know your checklist list so well, even under stress, that you don't need to look at it or have it read to you. It's ridiculous. The the crew is so important during an emergency, any emergency, even emergencies that are kind of happen regularly, chip lights, you know, something like that. We're not talking about catastrophic engine out, right? But even like hydraulics, hydraulic out. You know, I I I know that procedure. I know it to this day, and I haven't flown in 10 years. I I know it. But I wanted my TFO to read it to me. Adjust your speed to 4060, isolate the hydraulics. I you know, it's ingrained in you, but having a crew member read it to you, making sure you're doing it right, is so important. Would you get in on this? Because you have a lot of experience in the simulator world in in various uh ways. Talk about the how important it is for the crew to be involved in this sort of thing.

SPEAKER_06

I have to kind of heart to way back when, which is uh kind of ancient history compared to today. And we the the the the company had no had no interest in integrating bad crews uh using crew resource management technology techniques with the med crews of the pilots. Um and and and as you and as Mike and Blake, as you know, pilots pilots' attitudes toward med crews vary um greatly. I took again, I I really took took it very seriously to to be er to be highly interactive with the med crew in a in a flight. And um and if we were gonna have an issue, I mean I would I would say to them, look, hey guys, we need to be, let's start looking for a precautionary place to land. I don't I'm trying to think if that ever really happened. But I think that through, I thought, I've got two two good sets of eyes here, one out of one out of each side that can see uh that can see behind what I can see. So what by by getting them involved, I've increased my field of vision, uh, if we're gonna have to do something like that, by a thousand percent.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

And and they again, and the med crews, their enthusiasm for the enthusiasm for that kind of integration varied. But most of them, you could say, look, guys, um we're all in this together, and we've all well that you you you you you you got to know your med crews closely, of course. And and you you didn't really have to say that, but some of the pilots in uh again, I'm not sure if it's this way today, but then there were there were some of the pilots who said, I don't want to even talk to the med crew, it's my business how I fly, and um which I thought was kind of stone age. Uh but I I felt like if we're gonna like land in a horrible confined area, two that other set two sets of eyes, just a normal situation, were invaluable. I mean, these, you know, med crews know a lot about flying. It's they know more than they think they do because they've been riding around for a long time, tightly involved in the whole flight experience. And for and to from for us to have to go land down in a bunch of trees, to say to them, look, guys, this is gonna be a very steep approach uh with a lot of obstacles. So let's all get mind-melded here and let's you guys watch out in your sectors that you can see. And if anything you see, you know, if you see something that you think is gonna be a danger, say something. And and my thought was if one of them says, hey, there's a tree branch, it was I was pulling clocky, like, whoop, that's enough for me.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

Because at that point you can't say, well, where's the tree? Right. Right? Yep, yeah. And um and so I'd personally it like to involve the the crew, the med crew in in situations like that. And and and most of them seem to like to be involved. Some of them had the uh idea, well, look, I'm not really you're the pilot, I'm not really involved. I just do my job when I get there. But but I think most people in in a situation like that would like to would like to be involved and help to make sure everybody gets out safe.

SPEAKER_08

So I'm kind of going around circles here, but that's that's all that's all true. It's self-preservation.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah. It is self-preservation. And by the way, you know, the nurses and paramedics are pretty intelligent people. Most of them are more intelligent than pilots. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04

Uh this is being recorded. Yes, absolutely true.

SPEAKER_08

You can teach us, you can teach a monkey how to fly a helicopter.

SPEAKER_04

We can teach one to start an IV.

SPEAKER_06

There's a lot to be said for all three team members to be uh proactively involved in the flight. And and for uh if the if the company doesn't promote, I mean most most air medical companies now are promoting crew crew resource management to a very high degree. Absolutely. And and and that's good because it's gonna make for a happier, safer flight. No doubt. No doubt. So I don't know, I kind of beat to death, but that's my thought.

SPEAKER_08

Well, it's it's an important topic. CRM is important and it can save your lives, you know. Um absolutely.

SPEAKER_05

I feel like we might have done a podcast about that, Jack, or something. I'm just gonna do that.

SPEAKER_08

I just I think you're I think you're right. I think you're right. That was a good one. That was a really good one. I love that conversation. That was that was fantastic. So in the couple minutes we have left, I just want to kind of rapid fire around the around the horn here and ask each of you and give just a just a brief, you know, you're you're you're now in charge. You are in charge. You are king for the day. And I want you to pick one thing that if if you had the power to do it in your industry, not in your unit, not where you work, just industry-wide with dealing with fatigue. If you had to pick one thing to change to make it this better, what would it be? Blake, give us one.

SPEAKER_03

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SPEAKER_04

If I was running for whatever election, if I would this would be my ticket. This is what I would write on. Um, for our industry from the med crew perspective, the number one thing we all say, we say this all day. I will fly all day. I will take care of patients, no problem. You know what I hate doing? Documenting. I hate doing documentation because it takes so damn long. Yeah. Why does it take me two hours to do a patient care report or chart, whatever you want to call it? So, and when we talk about those things, God, if I could change that and and and it's happening, there, they're there, the documentation companies they're they're catching on. Yeah, uh, there, there's a lot of things that are helping us do our job a little bit better, but we could still get there. And that's the I think that that's for me personally my number one complaint. It's not the fact that we just did all these crazy things to this patient. Yeah, but now I got to go back and write it all out and put it into words and type it out, and it takes me three hours. So I think I know what you're gonna say, but how does that paperwork relate to the fatigue factor? Cut that time down. Why don't if I could do that chart, if I could take care of that patient, get back and not have to spend two or three hours doing documentation. If I was able to cut that down to 45 minutes to an hour at the most, now I have some more time to rest and read. Exactly.

SPEAKER_08

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04

Very good. That'd be my that'd be my ticket. All right. You're vote for vote for Blake. I don't know what I'm running for, but it sounds cool. Vote for Blake.

SPEAKER_08

So, Woody, all your experience, all those years, you've seen uh you've seen this this topic in multiple settings. If there was one thing that you could change in the industry that would make it better with with relation to fatigue, can you pick one?

SPEAKER_06

I I think it's uh I was again, I was kind of cringing at when you came to me on this because I'm I'm really drawing a blank. I mean, I think we've covered I think we've extensively covered the dynamics of what this job is from all our perspectives, and uh and certainly are in agreement that it it's uh it's a huge challenge that uh requires all the players to actively contribute to the solution and to be um uh and work hard to to be uh to have a good team. So I I don't I can't think of one thing.

SPEAKER_08

I I think you just hit on it. It I I think you just hit on it, Woody, by saying, you know, that the team has to be involved in this. All of the people have to be involved in this that are doing the job, right? I mean, it shouldn't be somebody that's not out there doing the job that is saying, well, we're not gonna do that. That's a stupid idea. Well, hold it. The people that are doing the job think it's a really good idea, and then it would help them be more efficient or effective or safer. They're the ones that are doing it, right, right? I mean, you've seen that through your whole career. Yeah. I mean, it it just seems like uh sometimes the the worker bees get ignored on these topics when you're living it and feeling it, and you're the one that is fatigued, you know. Mike, king King Fidale? Uh what what what uh what would you change? King Fidale.

SPEAKER_04

King I just found the plaque for his office negative part.

SPEAKER_05

King Fidale. Uh but if I could be king for a day, I vote for mandatory naps. I don't know. Uh no, but I I think that one of the things I would love to see is this the stigma that surrounds being tired or not being able to complete a mission in that we said that word again, or not be able to go on that response. But the stigma surrounding that, to be able to say confidently, I'm not safe right now, could somehow go away. I think that we all need to have that trust and understanding and reliability within ourselves and our teammates to know that we're all in this job because A, we want to do good, we want to help our patients, we want to go home at the end of the day, we want to be a team player. That if there has to come that time where I have to say, I'm not safe right now, that the stigma surrounding all of that goes out the window because we need to be able to have not only that conversation with ourselves, but with our crew members, and it needs to be okay.

SPEAKER_07

Yes.

SPEAKER_05

We have in most parts of the country a helicopter in every corner. There's no shortage of them around.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

So if I'm not safe to do it here, somebody else is. And I'm, you know, I know that you know everybody's cringing, like, oh, we're giving away business that way. I don't I'm saying even within your own agency, you've got multiple options at most places out there around the country. And I think that we need to just be able to have that honest conversation with ourselves and for the stigma surrounding it to go away. I agree. In my perfect world.

SPEAKER_08

It's it's just like mental wellness. I think we talked about this before we started recording. It's talking about fatigue and talking about mental wellness, it has changed. We we were able to talk about it more today than people 10 years ago, 20, 30 years ago when they didn't talk about it at all. It was just the stigma was huge. Yeah, we made progress, no doubt about it, but there's still always room for improvement. And so I agree with you that getting rid of that stigma is important and being able to talk about it honestly and say, hey, this is reality. What you know, yes, I'm we might say no to a flight, but think about what it would cost you if we went out there fatigued, like we know we are, for the following 10 reasons and the frat that we can show somebody and say, if we you know ball this helicopter up, that's gonna cost you a lot more than than this flight by far. It's not even it's not even not even close.

SPEAKER_05

And I think that there is there is some of that going in that direction. We are making progress as an industry, we are pushing this forward, and I think that we are making strides, absolutely. Good. Um, and and I, you know, I see it within um many leadership teams across the country who are are practicing what they preach and indicating, like, hey, if you got to call a timeout, that's okay. We're all right with that.

SPEAKER_07

Oh, I love it.

SPEAKER_05

Um, and I I think that where I'm saying the stigma, I think that's almost more of an internal thing. I have my own stigma for me to say that I'm too I'm too proud.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Right. And so I need to be able to have that internal conversation as well as that external conversation.

SPEAKER_08

Well, we just had a a chief, a couple of chiefs on recently, and um one of them mentioned that on his department, if somebody on Graveyard Shift is really hurting a patrol officer, that they they tell you you can come into the station, go to that cot room, and take a break. And if you need to nap for 30 minutes to get you out of that funk, do it. I was stunned. That is unheard of, was unheard of in law enforcement. I was stunned and went, really? And he's like, Yeah, why wouldn't we? Because what's gonna happen if he stays out there in the nut? He's gonna crash, he's gonna hurt himself, he's gonna hurt somebody else, and it's gonna cost us a fortune. So call permitting. I mean, you know, you're gonna take a nap when it's a busy Friday night, maybe, but if you're hurting and there's nothing going on and it's a rainy night and there's no calls, he doesn't want you out there nodding off. And I love that. Uh so maybe there's a I hope, and he's a very respected uh chief in the in the world of you know, teaching other chiefs about leadership. Maybe this is a trend. Uh I'm not aware of it, but I was I was thrilled to hear that because that was opposite of what I dealt with for 30 years. Six years. It was not only frowned upon, it was like you don't do it. No. Um it's and there's no doubt that there's some people out there that got hurt or or killed with fatigue uh being a factor. So man, time has flown by. We knew that we this was gonna happen.

SPEAKER_04

Um I don't feel like we even scratched the surface on I know no, but uh Jackie, you gotta answer the question. Yeah, you were king for a day. Oh wow. What would you change?

SPEAKER_08

I I think I would touch on that and and say I want everybody to be like like Chief Youth and in law enforcement and say, okay, that if you really need it, it can't be a you can't come in every night and take a nap. But if you really need it, you should be able to do it. And I I can tell you at air support when I was first on graveyards as a TFO, that was acceptable. It was accepted that you came in at four o'clock, you know, the last flight landed at at 04, you landed, and you could sit there in those comfy chairs in the TV room and close your eyes. And because you could get another call. You were on call until seven. That went away. And it it it was ridiculous. And because it was looked at, oh, you guys are just being lazy. No, we're hurting, and you're gonna send us back out in a helicopter over the city. It's crazy. Um what could go wrong? So yeah, I think that would be it. That the the stigma, you kind of I'm following up on yours, Mike. You know, the stigma's taken away, and in law enforcement, you actually encourage it, especially in the aviation side. And uh, so that would be mine. But um, wow, what a what a good conversation. Uh, like I said, time flew by. We knew it would, we knew we could talk about this all day. But I'll just uh close it by thanking all of you. Woody, we really appreciate your years of experience and wisdom in this and giving us a perspective that we wouldn't have had uh by by participating. So thank you, Woody. Appreciate you coming on.

SPEAKER_06

Happy to do it. I'm I still argue with you about wisdom. Uh yeah, it does not fit in my life.

SPEAKER_08

Well, I've talked to you enough to know that you have wisdom and I've learned things. So uh we'll I'll just override you on that, and I will be the king, and you will just be the prince. And I will tell you that you have lots of wisdom, Prince McClendon. Um and thanks for joining us. Um thank you. This was great, guys. It was great. It was great. Blake, Mike, thank you so much for collaborating on this. This was a great idea, and I'm I'm proud to be a part of it with you guys. Uh the Valor Flight Crew podcast is a wonderful thing, and uh I've I've been on I've been a guest a couple times I've been with you guys and with John, and we know the good work you're doing. And like I said, I got to see it fr first at Echo last year and looking forward to Philadelphia uh and seeing more of that. Uh any closing thoughts, Blake, and then Mike?

SPEAKER_04

I'm just really grateful uh that we're all able to sit down and do this. Um I think having these conversations and learning from the different aspects of public safety, law enforcement, rest, search, rescue, uh, the the medical side, we can all take those little bits from each other and and work with the things that, hey, this they tried it, it didn't work. Why the hell are we gonna do that? You know? And then the answer could be like, well, because they don't operate that way, maybe we do, right? Or and vice versa, be like, well, it didn't work for them, it's definitely not gonna work for us, right? So I'm really appreciative of this opportunity that we get to share from the different perspectives of the different aspects of what this world is of public safety aviation. And I think that this was great conversation. And I don't, like I said, we probably left with more questions than answers, but maybe we answered a few along the way.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um, and I I had a great time. Great. Thanks, Plate.

SPEAKER_05

Mike, finish us up. Yeah, Jack, thank you so much. I mean, it it's been an absolute honor to come on here and be part of Now the Hangar Z podcast. Uh, I guess it's uh, you know, we're going back and forth on on when we get to do guest appearances, but it's an honor and a privilege and and uh appreciate the kind words about the Balor Flight Crew podcast. Um it's been uh it's been a ton of fun and we've had some great mentors along the way, yourself included. So I really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_08

Kind words.

SPEAKER_05

But yeah, this has been a great conversation. Um thank you for having us on. I I love having these kind of conversations. I if nothing else, it's thought provoking. And I hope that, you know, for everyone that's listening, that they can go back to their bases and start to have these conversations around the crew table and really start to open up about how they are feeling and how they can improve upon it within their own organization. And that to me really means more than anything else is giving that um maybe food for thought that people can take back and really turn into their own and make work for themselves and for their own organization and continue to push this industry forward and make it safer every day. We know we can't eliminate this risk, but we know that we can probably do some things to maybe help it out. And I think that these are the conversations where it starts. And I challenge every single person that's listening to take this back to their crews and to make it their own in their own base, in their own home.

SPEAKER_08

I concur, Doctor. That is outstanding what you just said there, Mike. This should be a catalyst to get conversations going in your own units with your own crews and with yourself. Goes back to you know the beginning, uh what Blake said, having that tough conversation with yourself, have it, you know, and see what you can change. I'll end with this. Uh uh sleep under stress is the name of the article by Dr. Tanya Glenn. It's in uh go to vertical mag.com, go to Valor, Valor magazine, Valor Plus, and it's on page 26. Uh sleep under stress. There's some dynamite information in there about what we're talking about. It's really well written. Tanya's very experienced. She's one of my favorite guests we've ever had on, and she's saving lives left and right. And this topic will be just added to the list of things that she shares expertise on that will save people. So with that, um, thank you to MHM, Vertical Helicast, Valor Plus, Echo, uh, for all the support for both our podcasts, uh, the Valor Flight Crew podcast and the Hanger Z podcast. We're thrilled to be collaborating on this. And with that, I'll just say from all of us at both the Valor Flight Crew and the Hanger Z, stay safe, and we'll catch you the next time on either of those podcasts. That's how I'm going to end it here. Make sure you're checking out uh all the podcasts and vertical helicasts.

SPEAKER_03

Stay safe, everybody. Thanks for joining us for this episode of the Hanger Z podcast. Don't forget to like and subscribe to hear more stories that promote the personnel and equipment behind the missions in public safety aviation. Lastly, stand by for a message after a word from our sponsors. Cheers.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you to our sponsor, Robinson Helicopter Company. For over 50 years, Robinson has been a cornerstone in vertical lift, dedicated to making helicopter missions accessible, reliable, and safe. By maintaining a vertically integrated manufacturing base in the United States, Robinson delivers practical, high-performance tools for difficult missions. Whether it's the legendary R-22, where so many pilots began their journey, the versatile R-44 and R-66, or now the new 10th-seat R-88, Robinson continues to set the standard. Now through Robinson Unmanned, the company is expanding into autonomous and remotely piloted aircraft for civil, commercial, and defense sectors. Robinson Helicopter Company, committed to efficiency, reliability, and supporting your mission, whatever it may be. Visit RobinsonHeli.com or RobinsonUnmanned.com to learn more. Climb higher.

SPEAKER_03

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SPEAKER_02

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SPEAKER_08

As we wrap up this episode, we want to thank you for joining us for this important conversation about fatigue. Fatigue is one of the most significant threats in aviation safety, yet it remains one of the hardest hazards to identify and address. The more we learn about fatigue, its effects, and the way we can mitigate its impact, the safer our crews, organizations, and missions will be. One of the key takeaways from this discussion is that managing fatigue is not solely the responsibility of an individual air crew member, nor is it solely the responsibility of management. It requires commitment and engagement at every level of an organization, from the newest crew member all the way to the executive leadership. Fatigue must openly be discussed and honestly assessed and continuously evaluated if we're serious about improving safety. But perhaps the most important point that emerged from this conversation is that we cannot depend entirely on those outside the aircraft to manage our fatigue for us. As Blake said so perfectly, we all need to have difficult conversations with ourselves. That honest look in the mirror may be the most effective fatigue mitigation tool we have. It requires self-awareness, humility, and the willingness to acknowledge when we are not at our best. Those conversations are not always easy, but they are essential to protecting ourselves, our crews, and the people we serve. Thank you to Mike, Blake, and Woody for sharing their experiences, insights, and expertise. And thank you to all of you for listening and being part of this ongoing effort to make aviation safer. Until the next time, stay safe and never underestimate the danger you can't see fatigue.