The Hangar Z Podcast
A podcast where we explore the personnel and equipment behind the missions in Public Safety Aviation.
The Hangar Z Podcast
Episode 89- Erik Sabiston's Journey from Off the Grid Musician to Military Medevac Pilot and Aviation Advocate Part 1
Welcome to episode 89 of The Hangar Z Podcast Brought to you by Vertical Valor Magazine.
Our guest, Erik Sabiston, developed a lifelong fascination with aviation as a young man. A former US Army Blackhawk pilot, author of the best-selling book "Dustoff 7-3 Saving Lives Under Fire in Afghanistan", the founder of RTAG, co-founder of the ICARUS device, current airline pilot, and owner of Sabiston Consulting. Erik takes us on his unique journey, from his early days in the music industry to living off the grid, then to the military as a pilot, and ultimately to becoming a legacy airline pilot.
Erik’s dedication to the aviation industry extends beyond the cockpit. His experiences transitioning from military to civilian life inspired him to create RTAG, a charity focused on veteran hiring within the aviation industry. We explore the ups and downs of this transition period, and how Erik’s organization strives to support veterans in their journey. We also dive into discussing the process of becoming an airline pilot and the benefits of transition programs for military personnel. Erik talks about his exit from RTAG and what he is doing now with his consulting business where he is still helping veterans and civilians achieve their dream of a career in aviation.
The episode concludes with Erik sharing his personal encounters from his military service, including an unforgettable military medevac incident. We reflect on the significance of rigorous training and the role it plays in life-threatening scenarios.
This episode is part one of a two-part series. Stand by to hear part two.
I would like to thank our sponsors Metro Aviation SHOTOVER and CNC Technologies as well as our supporters on Patreon.
Hey, welcome here to the podcast. I'm your host, john Gray, back with you today with a really good conversation on hand. We talked about some transition programs that are available for those that are transitioning from the military to civilian life. But hey, it's an honor privilege to introduce our next guest. Guy's got a ton of experience doing a ton for the industry, eric Sabiston. He was a US Army Blackhawk pilot, flew 145s as well in the US Army, wrote a really good book. The title of the book was Dustoff 7.3. Had a chance to read that. Highly recommend you pick up the book and maybe send Eric a message. You can sign it for you or something cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, if I can remember how to spell my own name, it'd be great.
Speaker 1:And then he's the founder of RTag. So you know, talking about the military to civilian programs, that's one of the biggest ones that I'm aware of Co-founder of Icarus devices, and I'd like to dig into that and kind of how your military experience and some of the incidents you were involved in there kind of played into that. And then you've got your own consulting business. Now It's again helping people transition from military to civilian And then even, i think if you're a civilian wanting to get into aviation, you're helping folks do that as well. The last thing, and it's probably one of the most important things, is just to note that you're an airlines pilot, so you actually made the transition successfully And you've worked for a number of airlines. So it'd be cool to dig into that and figure out you know what the pathway looks like for you, what it looked like for you and potentially how other people could do that same thing. So, eric, welcome to the podcast and thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2:Hey, thanks for having me guys. I appreciate it.
Speaker 3:I don't see a pilot for an airline, but he's a pilot for a legacy airline, So yeah, pretty cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which means really nothing, Except I think we get more clothing for free. We get ties, which are bonus. You can wear them to funerals you know bar mitzvahs or anything like that.
Speaker 3:I think the regional pilots are actually making a little more money right now, aren't they Like starting out?
Speaker 2:Well, I knew a guy that made, I think, almost 100 grand in two weeks. Wow, So it's proportionate. But yeah, I mean there's a lot of folks making a lot of money everywhere, And hopefully that bleeds down to the helicopter industry too, because it's a whole lot harder to fly a helicopter than it is an airliner. That's a fact.
Speaker 3:Yeah, things have definitely gotten better in our industry in the last couple of years. Good, right now our company is offering cash bonuses, basically every shift. You pick up now. Wow, that's crazy. Yeah, everybody's making six figures now. So it's nice.
Speaker 1:You told me with the bonus we're for folks to pick up overtime, so you have something like dang. That's great. But hey, every episode we start out with the drink of the day, so let's hop into it for that. Our good friend, mike Calhoun from RSO. He went to Mammoth Mountain Skiing like two weeks ago, which is wild. It's June and he's up there skiing. So on the way back he stopped by June Lake Brewing and picked up one of their double IPAs for me, which is really good 85 IBUs, so really bitter, and it's even stronger It's a 9%. So this one's going to get you going where you want to get pretty quick. It's actually really good too, some of these doubles then, it being kind of multi, i think, just the nature of double IPAs, but man, this one's super good. So I'm rolling with the June Lake Brewing. Thanks, calhoun, appreciate it. Eric, what do you got?
Speaker 2:Today I have lemonade, but generally my drink of choice is a little bit more dangerous. That would be the coffee on the airbus. Some of those tanks may not have been cleaned in a long time, but that's honestly really it. I don't buy, but I like coffee. There's an espresso machine on the A321T that goes across the US. That's a good one, and yeah, that's pretty much it, man. My wife doesn't let me have anything that's bad for me. She wants to be healthier And she said honey, you can be ugly or fat, but you can't be both.
Speaker 2:So I'm sticking with the health right now. I like it. What about you, Jeff?
Speaker 3:You're not getting out of this? Oh no, i never do. I'm in the middle of my hitch. I just started yesterday, last night, and I'm on night, so I literally just woke up like an hour ago, and so I'm drinking my. I've got my coffee, and it's just regular K-cup donut shop, you know, from Walmart coffee, but it is out of my new MD Helicopters Yeti. A shout out to our friends at MD Helicopters They just hosted us out in Mesa And we had a lot of fun out there with them. So, ashley and the crew out there, thank you. And I do have to say, though, john just released our video podcast episode on our YouTube channel today, and I just want to give everybody the I just want to put this caveat out there that this wasn't a planned event. We just had the camera recording and we had the audio recording. Had I known I would have been a better host, we would have asked more questions of CJ.
Speaker 1:I feel kind of like an idiot, but because it was just a lot of uh-huh, uh-huh And me flying the 530 around the desert, so no, it's funny, The intent behind it was never to capture the audio part of it, it just was a kind of a side benefit of doing it the way we set it up. And you know, i started watching. I'm like hey, this actually is pretty entertaining, i think. So, yeah, you know from what turned into, from what was supposed to be just a video turn into a video podcast, you know it's like what's the thing called Car karaoke?
Speaker 3:or something. Car karaoke, that's what we decided. You know, if you've watched late night, of course he's there off the air now, but he did the carpool karaoke. So we're thinking we're going to incorporate that and make it a thing. is, you know, helicopter karaoke? And we'll go around and fly with guys and sing and tell stories. And it'll be fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, lots of good options, lots of good shenanigans. Yeah, i'm definitely down for that If I get a one piece.
Speaker 1:Well, maybe we can join you on one of those flights that has a cappuccino machine and we'll drink cappuccinos and sing.
Speaker 2:We could do that. Yes, we could do that. We'll put up the second barrier, though, so they can't get to the espresso. So, our sir, we're all out, there's none for you. I just try to put stuff on the top shelf, and usually my captains are taller than me, so they just say, hey, can you grab that? No, this is my food.
Speaker 3:You eat what's down here, okay.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Well, for the next segment of the podcast. we call this segment the hot seat, so it's just an opportunity for us to break the ice a little bit and ask some random questions and go from there. So for the first question do you have any rituals that you perform before every flight? You know, not necessarily your walk around, or rituals.
Speaker 2:I do try to put on clean underwear, Usually clean socks. I try to go to the right aircraft every time I can And I try to say hello every time. Hi, how are you doing? Hi? can you pick that up? I don't know. I don't have any rituals. I'm not superstitious at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i think about rituals, and baseball is the first thing that comes to mind, is it no, margrisia para? Every time you come to bat, you'd see him mess with his batting gloves like 10,000 times. It's every time, and I think in aviation we become creatures of habit for a lot of reasons. So, yeah, i've heard some funny stories of what people do before flights, but mine's not funny. It's just I have to have a piece of gum every flight. You're like check it.
Speaker 1:If a pursuit kicked off and you run out the stairs and you forgot a piece of gum, it was like it was a bad omen. So chewing gum, having to stick a gum on hand before a flight was important.
Speaker 3:Jeff, do you have anything? You know, with flying EMS, everything's very regimented already with checklists, and you've got a, you know, do all your pre flight stuff. And so I have like a routine that I do and every guy, you know, every pilot's a little bit different, but you know, mine is get all my paperwork done in the office first, you know, get a good check of weather, know kind of what's going to happen throughout the shift or whatever, and then I'll go out and do the pre flight on the aircraft. Other guys want to come in and go pre-flight the aircraft, you know, first and foremost so, but you know, i but I stick to that routine, but it's not really like, yeah, i don't have, like You know, a favorite pair of underwear, something weird like that, are you sure? no, i do keep a. I do keep a challenge coin in my pocket on my flight suit, though my onesy I do, yeah, so you know, but I just keep it in there all the time. So okay, let's.
Speaker 1:That's kind of a can to let's stick again. Anyways, that's the hot seat. Like I said, just some, some icebreaker kind of, some random stuff going on there again. Really really happy to have you on the podcast, eric.
Speaker 2:Yeah man, me too. It's cool to be here finally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we've been talking about it for a while and, following you, knowing who you are, knowing who our tag is, it'll be cool to you know, digging that, how that all developed and what it's actually doing for people and and So really I guess it's a good segue into talking about how you even got any aviation You talk about you know a little bit about where you grew up and kind of how that got you into aviation yeah, i grew up in a little town in the Shenandoah Valley and And aviation was something that I don't know if I really considered it too much.
Speaker 2:To be completely honest with you, i probably was top gun. You know, you saw that when I was probably 12 when it came out and that affected me. I was, uh, i was in the Naval Sea Cadet Corps. You know we would go down into Oceania Naval Air Station at Sea aircraft. I went to college and I actually took a little bit of a detour. I worked in the music business. I worked a nightclub Doing live sound, rodeoing for these huge bands That you've all heard of, and working as a music teacher. I kind of given up aviation completely and, you know, recorded several albums, played a lot of shows and then at the end of the 90s and mid 90s I decided to Break away from that. I just felt like it wasn't. You know it wasn't going anywhere. I lived off the grid for about Three years in northern california um, mountain lions and everything out there.
Speaker 1:Let's detour there for a second, because I remember reading about that and and uh, i'm like That. That area is known for off the grid living. I know some people live up there off the grid and it's we visit where they live and it's Very uh In genius some of the devices that that you guys come up with to oh yeah, the unibars live there, So that's fantastic here.
Speaker 2:No, i mean, were you up in humble South? I was in mendicina, technically fort bragg, yeah Yeah. So I lived in a truck for a little while and then I got an 8x8, toolshed, i built, and I lived in that. And then I bought a single wide from gene parson's, who was the last drummer in the bay and the birds, and I lived in that. And then when 9 11 happened, i was like you know, they got electricity and running water in iraq. I'll just go in the army. Um, i, i was in the navy reserve and I, you know, done a little time, worked as a butcher my day job at that point and so I was a cook.
Speaker 2:For them Was aviation opportunity? Not really. I mean, everybody wanted to join the military. At that point I ended up getting to become a blackhawk crew chief And I deployed with 101st airborne To iraq, worked really hard, got into flight school on my sixth try And from there that's it. I mean I, i just wanted to be a pilot. I didn't think that I could do it, i didn't think I was smart enough, i didn't think I, uh, would, would, would, would, be able to, to get signed off on it, and. But I had some really great leaders my, my company commander She was amazing Uh, liss martin. She's now colonel, um, a battalion commander. Um, my first sergeant, you know. I tried to do the very best I could and and I got to keep the blackhawk, which Was a dream, i mean.
Speaker 2:I went back to iraq, the same exact place, for a year and um, now as a pilot, came home for a few months and went back as a medevac pilot. This time I had been doing aerosol and then I did, uh, medevac, and You know, aviation is. I don't. I don't know what I'd do without aviation. I'd be reading magazines about aviation or clicking on videos. I uh, i don't know what I will do when I get to. Well, i know I'll be depressed, because aviation is is everything my mom said when I was a kid I used to take legos and, you know, create and construct little cockpits out of the legos and set them up in my room. So I guess, maybe I always want to be a pilot.
Speaker 1:I don't know, i think the majority of us fit that bill.
Speaker 2:You know, we all kind of yeah, I think a lot of us do when we're kids and I was the same way as you.
Speaker 1:I, i thought and I've said this a bunch of times I thought I had as much of a chance as become a professional baseball player Is. I did a pilot and I knew I wasn't going to be a professional baseball player, so I thought my chances of being a pilot were just about the same. I just didn't know what it took. So you know a lot of these conversations you know we have on the podcast talking to folks like yourself. It's hopefully to encourage. You know some some kids are to listen out there But think that they don't have what it takes to do it and they've got a passion for it. If you, i feel like if you've got a passion and a desire to do it, you can find a way, you know.
Speaker 2:So when I was super, when I was super young, i asked an F-14 pilot. I was in Oceana and I said hey, sir, i want to be a pilot. You know we go into college. Can you tell me what it takes? and he looked me down, yeah, and he said if you have to ask me what it takes, you don't have what it takes Now. Never forget that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Wow, yeah, you know, and they're not all bad. But, um, you know, i, i, when I came back as a crew chief And I started flying alongside these pilots and this is nothing against them But I realized this guy's not any smarter than me, he's, he's, he's not that much. I could do this. I know the answer, i know how to make a radio call. So I thought, well, you know, they could do it.
Speaker 2:And that's a lot of part of what our tag is. I mean, our tag was not a way to get people out of the helicopter industry or out of the military, it was an anti-suicide program. That's what I made it, you know. That's what I founded it to be. People don't, they don't kill themselves when you give them half of a shrimping boat. Dynasty, right, you know? and if you continue to do these deployments over and over again, wouldn't it be great, when you get out, even if you don't have a background as a pilot, to be able to chase that dream down? and Maybe that takes a little bit of the sting, uh, off of multiple deployments, broken families, broken marriages. You know, i think, as as men, you know, maybe it seems old-fashioned, but I think a lot of us define ourselves by what we do. That's kind of how we look at each other. I mean, how long you go into a room and how long does it take you to figure out who does what? not long, and, um, especially the pilots, you know they're well especially Right.
Speaker 1:It's all about 50 seconds Exactly, Hey do you know what I do?
Speaker 2:So it's yeah, exactly So. And I think another, another reason that our tag came about. I was down at fort rucker As a green suitor, as an army guy, and I had contractors and dachs Department of army civilians working with me. One day the contractors were all just laid off because of sequestration And I don't know. I was kind of like the same thing with 9, 11, where that you know that light goes off and I linked him was brand new. I was just on it and I just got super angry.
Speaker 2:I mean, here half of my friends that I work with were suddenly unemployed and nobody seemed to care, nobody was trying to find them a job. I mean, i became a linkedin master. I was on there, phi, everybody I could talk to trying to find my friends jobs. So maybe that's just something I've always I don't know. I don't want anybody else to be, you know, down their luck. I was homeless for a little while in my 20s, eating out trash cans, sleeping in parked cars, and I don't want anybody to have to go through that. So my love for aviation mixed with I don't want to see anybody Struggle, and that's kind of the natural Uh foundation for what our tag became.
Speaker 3:You know, i just want to say like I completely understand that that situation and when I came I was, you know, black Hawk crew chief Went to Iraq. I was in the National Guard, went, spent a year over in Iraq in uh 0405. Uh came home and I was an A&P mechanic working for America West Airlines at the time and I remember coming back, went back to work after a month and you know, and nothing against a and p mechanics and working at the airlines, it was probably one of the best jobs i ever had. But at the time i was like man, i just spent a year doing some really cool shit in a war zone and, you know, getting to hang out with my best buds for a year and and do some really cool flying. And then i came back to a flight attendant complaining about her coffee maker upfront being mealed and how you know that was like the worst part of her day and i was like signing off the logbook, just doing a through flight check, and she was complaining to me about the, the mel, and why we couldn't fix it and i was like i can't do this for 30 more years, like i need to do something else. I need. I need that, that adrenaline rush, or you know that sense of accomplishment, i guess.
Speaker 3:And, um, at the time, you know, before that, like, my accomplishment was i kept the airplanes in service, like when they would call us out to the gate for for a maintenance issue is getting that airplane back in service to get those 150, 200 people to their destination, and that that would. I got a lot of, you know, sense of accomplishment from that. And then, after iraq, it, you know that that wasn't going to cut it. You know seeing people complain about it when you're like man, there's people dying. You know we're flying guys that are in body bags to this lady's coffee maker not working, and and that's where that's what propelled me to go into law enforcement was to, you know, hopefully, scratch that itch and then, as luck would have it, you know, i ended up in the air unit and got trained as a pilot and you know the rest is history.
Speaker 3:But the so i, i totally understand that and i i appreciate the fact that you know, you recognize that as well and and did something about it because you know, like you said, that the, the suicide rate is, is unacceptable and we've got to do something to to help our veterans, to to find that meaning in life that they can, you know, focus on and and not focus and get and get down in that dark place that they can get to, because it can happen, and it can happen very easily and you know that's um, it's tragic. So i appreciate the fact that you know our tag was founded around that. I didn't know that piece of it. You know that that that's really what it was for, but i commend you for that because it's definitely needed in our industry.
Speaker 1:For sure can you kind of talk about our tag briefly. I'd like to dig into a little more. You know in depth as we go, but can you just talk about? you know you talked about a little bit about why it was founded, but maybe what it's doing now and what it looks like as an organization oh, the organization is doing great.
Speaker 2:Because i'm no longer, uh, running it. I, i resigned in the fall, um, you know, to focus on family stuff. Uh, still love the guys, still love what they're doing. I feel like i was probably the guy that helped charge the beachhead, helped to take the capital city, and you know, when you go into a room and with, with sponsors and and people that endorse you, and you know it's difficult for me with a straight face, to sit there and say, yeah, you'd be a great opportunity for a vet. You know it's sometimes not everybody really should be like. You know, um, i.
Speaker 2:Now it's in a different phase. Our tag is probably the largest hiring charity of all. Uh, just as far as far as size, because we founded it based upon no salaries for us, no cost to veterans. But you know, back to your point, jeff, i think it a draft would be really good. I know professional military is exciting and it's it's. You know it's cool and everybody wants to be here and everybody's highly trained, but there's something to be said for a common experience.
Speaker 2:I think that we are missing that from society and until everybody has some skin in the game and until everybody has to pay their due. We're really just going to continue to drift apart as a nation. I mean, we're looking at a continual cycle of crisis recovery, crisis recovery and and i think that's where we're at. But back to our tag. I think our tag right now has an opportunity to, you know, establish itself as a much larger entity. As far as money, you know, there's going to be a lot more money, there's going to be a lot more influence. Um, the challenges to our tag will obviously be how do you keep that, that fire that started our tag as a mission to helping veterans and yet still operate in a corporate world and keep that balance? because, you know, you do have to give up some things.
Speaker 2:I'm probably not the most, um, you know, political or or most delicate person when it comes to my opinions, because i look at our tag as another dust-off mission. You know i can't pick people up on the worst day of their life, uh, but what i can do, you know, is get them a job and that saves their life in a different way, that saves marriages, and they're still focused on that. But, dude, for seven years i took so many calls. I mean, one day i took 32 phone calls in one day, wow, christmas, i was taking calls, my wife and i's anniversary.
Speaker 2:I was taking calls and, um, you know, it just became too much. It was the right time for me, i got it to where it needed to be and i think now the guys in charge are going to take it to the next level and uh, you know, all good things must come to an end, right, yeah, yeah, some people like episode four, some people like episode uh five, right, right, you know, i'm an episode four, five r tagger and there's more sequels to come and i'll be watching just along with you guys yeah, yeah, so you know, for conversation sake, i'm a vet and i'm leaving the military and i'm looking for guidance from our tag.
Speaker 1:What kind of guidance do you guys offer?
Speaker 2:um, well, again, you know i don't do anymore, but they offer the r tag nation facebook page. I created that as a forum and i handed the reins over to those guys, so it's a place for information sharing. There are recruiters in there, um, they also have scholarships. I think they're going to have something like a quarter of a million dollars in scholarships. Some of those scholarships went un uh awarded last year because of a lack of applicants, believe it or not, jeff, and they had like two or three a and p scholarships that just nobody got um, so that's what they do. And, of course, the convention.
Speaker 2:The convention is uh, is a huge event that's going to be down in texas this year. Again, i think it's the first weekend in october. Um, i hope i get to go uh. But uh, my company is definitely going to be down there, icker's devices will be there and you'll see everybody. I mean, you'll see space x man, you'll see colleges, flight schools, you'll see thousands and thousands of folks and spouses they come in for free as well and lots of civilians and a lot of job offers.
Speaker 2:You know, another thing that i wanted to do right in the beginning was to get helicopter companies down there. Come on down and spend a lot less money and there's something to be said for that guy that's, or the gal who's walking through the building and like, okay, i see this opportunity, i see this, i see how much this is going to cost, how much time i'm going to be away from them. Is there anything here for me? you know i love heli success. I would love to, when i was there, have combined forces into one building and have it helicopter on one side and, uh, our tag on the other. But, um, but anyway, i think that that's a great place for helicopter companies because you know when you realize you're going to be gone 16 nights because you can't leave the moins, that's difficult, you know. Yeah, there has to be.
Speaker 2:I changed the name of art used to be rotary to airline group. I changed it to our tag, the veteran to aviation charity, on purpose, because it's not about airlines. It never was. I love seeing med trans across from envoy. I love it. You know when you're at our tag, you know you're the pretty girl in deployment. You know everybody's looking at you. So you know, uh, oh, you don't know, you can't help me out. Well, i'm gonna go see what this guy can do, yeah and then you go over, do it you know a lot of a lot of these events.
Speaker 2:They pay for their spot. I want to be in this spot. I select this spot i needed. I didn't let people off the hook when i was there. I was like no, no, no, no. In fact, i know just who to put you next to bam you know, that's when recruiters might.
Speaker 3:That's my, that's my motto yeah, and seeing the excitement for the conventions you know on on the r tag group and so many veterans you know coming out of the military. And what's funny is seeing the guys that are like, hey, i'm at, i'm at fort rucker or fort novicell now, but uh, you know, i'm, i'm here, i'm in flight school, i'm in army flight school and what's my quickest route to get to a you know a legacy airline? and you're like, you know it's, it's just crazy because that's what they're doing. I mean, guys are coming out of flight school and you know very quickly end up, you know, going to a major airline and and it's really unheard of, But it is, jeff.
Speaker 2:I mean, at our tech, fort Rucker, we had two guys that were hired the day after they put their wings on by two regional airlines. Now I would not recommend that anybody go to a regional airline under any circumstances ever. I don't care if you're a vet, i don't care if you're a pilot enlisted, i don't care if you're civilian. Nobody should touch your regional. That's just my opinion. It's my opinion only. But why would you go play for the best high school football team in America when you could go play for the worst team in the NFL? So make that jump.
Speaker 1:I want to dig into, i'm tempted to dig into your, your consulting business now and talk about oh, okay which you're offering. But but I'm not gonna, i'm gonna, i'm gonna refrain because I'm really I'm really interested in in your, your military experience.
Speaker 1:you know, okay, you know you wrote a book and I want to get to the book. I did have a chance to read it. It was really good, but talking about what kind of led to the genesis of the book, you talk about your experience flying the black Hawk and then later the 145 in the army.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was great. I when, when the book came out, i was excited because it was the way I wanted to do it. I don't know if you guys ever seen band of brothers. Yeah, you know, colonel, thank God to have y'all shot. Well, that's my. My publisher's husband, dale dies, that Hollywood legend, screen legend, and his wife, julia, is an amazing Hollywood technical advisor in her own right And she actually went to like the war college too. As a civilian. Can you believe that? Wow, but she's super, super genius. She loved the manuscript And they gave me the option to to put it out.
Speaker 2:I actually had a couple other officers at New York Times bestselling guy that wanted to do it. Very famous book that he wrote And I just felt like I was going to get in trouble. And, sure enough, he wrote a big book with a veteran that got really big and he got in a ton of trouble. So I made the right choice. You know that the dies didn't care how I did it. You know I just I wrote it my way. I wrote it in about two weeks, took a year to get the government to approve it. So is it as spicy or as genuine as it probably could have been. No, i was still in the army, you know. You got to remember, i wanted to keep my job. There was only one redaction in the entire book And that was some SF guys said you know, by describing this area you could kind of figure out where our compound was at JVAD. And I said never occurred to me. But they said thank you because that was one of the, or that was like the least amount of redactions they'd ever had to ask an author to make.
Speaker 2:So I was very careful. I was very proud of that And you know I didn't. I also wanted kids to be able to read it, so I didn't put any cursing in it. I wanted it to be something that could be read across, you know, multiple age groups. And there were a couple dudes that wanted to make a film. Quite frankly, the guy did, you know, godfather and Pockups now, and the Gersh Agency and a couple of their folks came to me and it was some big money And I didn't want the money. I wanted to, you know, keep my integrity. So I turned that down. In fact I was in Hollywood this week And I hate Los Angeles And I don't me too. I hope it doesn't happen to be completely honest with you, because it's just a bunch of junk. You know, i wanted to be able to tell the story the way I remembered it, as accurate as I could, to honor my crew and to honor the folks that didn't come back. I mean, we all have these experiences, but I certainly never thought I'd write a book The day I came back from the Waterport Valley. I was just glad I was alive.
Speaker 2:I didn't know if I was going to keep my wings for what we did. I mean, we went in avert 9 MC with men, fuel at Max Torque available, with a 11,000 foot mountain next to me and probably enough fuel to go to Bagram and make one approach and not be able to do a mist, and the weather over there was not good either. So but there was a crew decision. It wasn't like it was my decision. It was the medic and the crew chief and my co pilot who was actually my instructor. So everybody you know made that decision together. I imagine it's the same way in the civilian med as well, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, it's a crew decision.
Speaker 3:There's a lot more in the way of, like you know, briefing. As far as you know, the the med crew and I know we, like in the army. I was in the National Guard in the mid 90s when we first started doing aircrew coordination and crew resource management training. When, when the army first introduced it.
Speaker 3:You know I remember them talking about, like. You know, everybody has equal say in the cockpit and blah, blah, blah. It wasn't really my experience in the army is that, you know, depending on the crew. Which is something that I really take to heart is, you know, having these conversations with the crews, giving the crews options when, when I can as far as like, hey, we can do this or we can do that, yeah, you know. And and let them decide the best course of action that they're comfortable with.
Speaker 3:But it's, it's important to involve the crew because they're they're along for that ride. We just see, jay and I just talked about it when we were flying in the 530 is. You know, they make a conscious decision to get in that helicopter with us every day And they have an equal right because they've got just as much skin in the game as we do. And we have to put our egos aside as pilots and realize that. You know they have a vote in this and we need to listen to it And we need to take their concerns to heart. And if we can't, if we have to continue, we need to have a discussion with the crew and not just. You know I've been doing this for X number of years And you know I'm the pilot in command. We got to put that aside.
Speaker 2:And that might have been the best thing that we did. You know, someone told me that I think it was a lady from Medtrans. I spoke at some event And she's like the bravest thing you guys did was say no to the next mission. Yeah, at the end was to, because we just wouldn't have stopped. I mean, that mission was ridiculous And you know it ended up working out okay. But man, there's a million ways it could have gone wrong And then how could you live with yourself if that was the case?
Speaker 2:That's another thing too. I knew I wasn't. I didn't really have a choice about getting out of the military, but in hindsight I'm glad I did, because I don't think I had that fire anymore. I don't think I had the mental ability to risk everything that Tess and I have built over our entire lives for a stranger. And if you can't do that, then you need to do something else. If you're afraid and that was it I mean I was afraid of going out there and getting shot down. We lost five of our three aircraft to enemy firing one year. That's ridiculous. One medic got shot in the hoist twice. That was a very, very tough year And I couldn't do it again. I haven't even read my books since I wrote it, because not because I'm scared or anything, i just probably would be like who is this guy? Yeah, i'm not the same person anymore. I'm an old man. I'm getting too old for this sort of thing.
Speaker 1:We all woke up and all of a sudden we're old.
Speaker 1:But I think back to my time when you guys were deployed overseas Iraq and Afghanistan. I was civilian, i was never in the military And I feel like I was really insulated from what was really happening over there. I felt like I'm plugged into the news and I pay attention to current events, but now, reading your book, and now after the wars are over, i'm getting a true account of what actually took place out there. You did a really good job of actually describing not only what you did and what your helicopter experienced, but what each person did on your crew. You did a really good job of talking about your crew chief and the medic and different situations they were in. It kind of shed some light on those individual positions and what the responsibilities are. So kudos to you for not just focusing on yourself, because that's easy to do, because that's where our expertise is, that's our experience.
Speaker 2:And I've had critics say that that's all I did in the book. So I mean, you're always going to have somebody that doesn't like you, that doesn't like the platform you're on. That says that there's always a critic man. But I've had guys tell me straight up oh, you're just a glory hound and all you do is talk about yourself. I long stopped caring about what people thought about it And now I just chuckle. But I think honestly, john, that's probably a portion of that's just having been a crew chief. So I think I had a better understanding of where they come from and the kind of things they do And I just wanted it to be one accurate story. This is really what happened And I kind of vomited it out.
Speaker 2:I mean, i have friends since that I've met who are very cool people and professionals in their own right and their writers, and I don't know how they create fiction. I could never write like that. I do some writing on the side, but I don't do any nonfiction or fiction stuff because that just takes creativity. It's a different skill set. But yeah, i'm glad the book did well.
Speaker 2:I try to give out some copies here and there and donate copies. I don't really make any cash from it And I try to donate, when I do, to Fisher House, which is a great charity. If you're interested, i think it's one of the best charities out there. But yeah, i'm really lucky. A lot of guys didn't have that platform And that platform is what allowed me to try to create the charity. It allowed me to say, hey, did you know that helicopter pilots are better than most airplane pilots at flying? It's just a fact. Everybody I know in the military has got a mission, and we'll be the first to tell you that It's true, it is, oh, it's so true Yeah, the 2000.
Speaker 1:Is it a handful of fixed wing pilots listening, or another piss? They just turned it off. I'll forward all the mail to Jeff, that's right.
Speaker 2:The 2018 pilot source study that was briefed to the FAA made a friend of ours from NASA that we met through our tag. He was on the study And she had it added back in because it was originally taken out That helicopter pilots, statistically, were outperforming civilian airplane pilots. In initial part 121 training. They were needed less additional initial operating experience time basically build up time, oral progression and less additional training. That's not a statistic that you can negate or you can debate or you say it's not true. It's just math. Like it or not, it's the way it is, and that was before there were really transition programs.
Speaker 2:Now, i mean, you've got major airlines fighting over helicopter pilots. I have multiple friends of mine that have already been hired at major airlines with only 600 hours of total time. I mean some of them have like a handful of airplane hours, but they know that the training that both military and civilian helicopter pilots get is exceptional. They're fully capable instrument pilots. You know much, much higher level of hand flying capability. I've had at least two fighter pilots at three different airlines telling me where'd you learn to hand fly like that? I'm like, i'm just an average helicopter pilot, buddy.
Speaker 2:It is what it is, and maybe that's egotistical, but I'm sorry, i'm just not going to back down on that one. I'm not going to let this myth be perpetuated that we're lesser pilots. It's not on my watch, it's not while I'm alive, and I create a lot of enemies. I don't think you can do anything well if you don't create enemies And I'm probably the guy to do it, because I don't care, but I'm not the helicopter industry's enemy, i'm the best friend you have. You have no idea. That's all I got to say.
Speaker 3:No, and I think you're right. Like you know, i've seen it. Obviously. I've remained in the helicopter industry through all of this hiring boom And you know again, when the airlines start pulling, you know all these helicopter pilots And I saw it because in 2020, when I got hired at my company is, initially there was like all the overtime you wanted because there was so many pilot openings in, because the airlines had sucked up all these, you know, rotary guys going through the transition program.
Speaker 3:Then, as COVID continued and the airlines furloughed, all those guys flooded back into the helicopter industry And there was like hardly any overtime to be had.
Speaker 3:And now it's now that the airlines have picked up again, all those guys that were furloughed got recalled and more have now left And there's, you know, tons of overtime.
Speaker 3:But what we've seen is that we got a pretty significant pay raise last year Because they knew that they had to do something to keep guys from leaving, and then now they're offering even, you know, a daily bonus, basically to pick up overtime for every shift that we pick up.
Speaker 3:And so you know that is a direct result of what the rotary transition programs have done is, you know, the airlines have identified that, hey, this is a viable, these are viable pilots. They have tons of experience, you know, in skills that completely transfer over to you know flying a jet And then, of course, you know, like John always says, you know a rising tide lifts all ships. So the fact that you know that the airlines are now sucking up all these pilots and paying, well, the helicopter industry has to step up or they're not going to be able to staff. And, of course, why would a guy that you know, a guy's coming out of the army, especially during non-combat periods, is in peacetime, like we're in now are not going to come out with the hours to get hired into the HEMS? you know environment.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's why I started Arte. Right, i walked around the HeliExpo in Dallas and no one would hire me And I wasn't too proud to beg. I knew that I was not going to be able to continue in the military, so I had to do something. I had family to take care of. I was shameless man. I brought the little Newsweek magazine article, i brought my book, i said, hey, look, here's my 759.
Speaker 2:And you know, i had dinner with a guy at the last Arte. He was very, very pleased with himself. That he told me. No, he was very happy about it And he was very, very critical of you know what we were doing. And you know, i just thought to myself, man, if someone had just hired me with my piddly little 2000 hours, the Arte never would have happened. Yeah, but nobody would. Nobody would touch me. Now, a guy with 2000 hours of Robinson time at 2500, no problem. But there was just really no allocation or, you know, consideration for the type of flying that I had done And I think I had like over 450 missions in one year and 200 some odd hours. That's a lot of urgent meta-vax, sometimes 14 a day. And you know, maybe the industry will change I don't know how the minimums will be affected. I've heard rumors, but what I do know is that there are still pathways that Arte utilized, that airlines utilize, that I helped airlines create, that I briefed them on that are, that are just unused by the helicopter industry Like, for instance, the RTAG community.
Speaker 2:I created something called E2A. You know. I did three tours as an enlisted guy So enlisted to airliner, enlisted to aviation And schools started looking at this and saying, wow, if I hire this veteran, i could get up to $33,000 in tax credits. They can work for me for like up to 180 days and it's against the law for me to pay them as a CFI or a mechanic, you know. And they're going to come in with all their training paid for because of all these programs like WIO, jtsai, dod's, grilled Bridge, vr&e, gi Bill. They're going to get this stuff for free. They're not going to be as in debt. They're not going to be angry Yeah, you know, they're not going to be disgruntled And I can have a long-term pipeline.
Speaker 2:I got to talk to one of the biggest HEMS operators in the United States this morning and we had a nice long meeting all about the E2H program. It's my new idea for the helicopter industry and I've talked to a lot of the industry leaders about it. I'm excited to talk about it with you guys because I think this is the pathway where you get the men and women that you know. Just like you, jeff, do I really want to be worrying about MELs the rest of my life and broken coffee makers and broken toilets? Do I really want to be, you know, sitting here in a hotel while my kids are at home? Dude, there's a lot of vets that really are mission oriented and family oriented. Shouldn't they be, after multiple years away? Create these.
Speaker 2:The helicopter industry has an opportunity right now to create an E2H pathway at every one of the operators and staff it with employees who are either, you know, like John, big supporters of vets and have been forever, or vets themselves, like you, jeff, and you can take these men and women from you know cradle to the table all the way up.
Speaker 2:Help them find the right school, help them find the right time building opportunity, help them to get prepared for their commercial licenses and maybe even their ATP, till they get to the point where they're there. I mean, look at Dakota Meyer, look at Tim Kennedy. There's a lot of high profile veterans who are out flying helicopters because it's cooler. Yeah, you know, are you going to make a million bucks? We have. Look, we had 17 guys here last year in America make over a million dollars but they're never home. Right, they're never home. You know what shall profit you if you gain the whole world and lose your soul? And to me, i don't think it profits you at all. And look, i want veterans to be happy, not at the airlines, and the helicopter industry hasn't done a good job of going after them yet. They haven't yet. They haven't yet.
Speaker 1:There's a saying that I talked to my boys at home Some people are so poor all they have is money. You know, you don't want that thing to be. You don't want to chase. You don't want to chase money, because that by itself is empty. Right, you've got to be filled on the family, on the family front, you know, and on the work front, and you can't just be in pursuit of one thing. It's not, it's not a multi-dimensional.
Speaker 3:It's just not fulfilling So I liked it.
Speaker 1:You brought that up. the mission oriented side of the helicopter work, whether you're in law enforcement or HEMS or fire, i think is what drives a lot of people. You know it's a, like Jeff said, it's an itch that you've got to scratch And you know it's the passion of a lot of people and including us. You know it's what I love talking about it so much.
Speaker 3:So you know the E2H idea. I really like it because one thing that a lot of these companies have done and you're seeing it in the airlines, we're seeing it in, obviously, at my company now, with these you know daily bonuses and stuff is that's great for the guys that are here now. But if they were spending that money and on training, you know a pipeline of pilots to come in eventually that are, you know, maybe at a flight school I know, and are a lot of the larger HEMS operators at least have, like the, the ferry pilot.
Speaker 3:You know positions where guys don't meet the hiring minimums yet but they'll hire them to do maintenance flights Or, and you know so some of the companies are doing that now, but I think, even having a pipeline before that to like, hey, you come in, you know we're going to pay for your initial training and then you know you're going to work, you know, for us in the future, you know, but we're going to get you all your ratings and then you know, now you're it's self-perpetuating at that point right.
Speaker 3:So now you have this pipeline of guys that are coming in that are motivated because they know that eventually they're going to be at home with 14 days off, you know, a month, every other week off, and you know, sleeping in their own bed every day and flying helicopters and and feeling, you know, fulfilled that they're doing something that contributes to their community or whatever.
Speaker 3:So I think that you know, yes, it's great for the guys that are here now that are getting paid because we have a pilot shortage, but I think that you know we can fix it by providing opportunities to people and and then the companies are putting that money, after you know, towards improving their situation, because I don't think it's going to get any better at this point, especially for the rotary industry, because not as many guys are coming out of the military and, you know, looking to go into helicopter flying because of you know the airlines are picking guys up. You know so early on, even before hems will even look at them. So it's a. It's a. It's a big problem that we've created that we need to now address and fix. I like where your heads up.
Speaker 2:If, if the helicopter industry will just embrace these folks that have done so much for their country have been willing to risk absolutely everything, that the investment is actually zero in the beginning. I mean, take them to a point where you know they're at a benchmark, where they clearly are in it to win it, and then give them the money. Hey look, we'll, we'll, we'll, pay you back for this rating. At this point You get to here and you successfully make it and you prove it Dude, we're going to cover this. And then what do you can do? What does every other airline do? Take it out of your paycheck for three years, make it a. If you leave it in less than three years, then you have to pay it all back at four and a half percent interest, with plus the taxes. This is the deferred bonus program And this is I mean, it's simple math. I mean these, the companies need to do a better job of going after them and they got to send a flare out. They got to let people know we're here.
Speaker 2:You know when, when Envoy started an RTP, everyone would go around and say what are you doing? I'm going to the airlines, are you doing the Envoy thing? Well, no, i'm at Gojie, we're no, i'm a commuter or I'm I'm at Sky West or I'm at Republic. But everybody would invariably say, oh, that's what I meant. You're doing the Envoy thing. I mean. This company I talked to today probably will not sit around and wait for some other major operator to be the one that you know gets to put their name first and their flag first on the moon.
Speaker 2:Passion plus interest. You could do anything. So, yeah, come on, if you look, and I'll put this out right now. Look, i have a consulting business. This is a business. I have a family I love to believe it or not, and I don't like to spend my time working for free. However, if you're a company out there and you want to learn more about you to age, contact me. I will not charge you a penny. I will give you the information for free to do exactly what I did for the last seven years. I mean, our tag added between 83 and 267 new members a week when I left. Would you like at least a portion of that kind of interest in your company? Come contact me, no charge, i'll take care of you.
Speaker 1:I think from the consumer standpoint, you know, if I'm the guy that's looking to, you know, become a pilot outside of being in law enforcement. I would have really no clue of even how to do that Right. So I think getting information out there is crucial, and some of the tools that we have now, social media being a big part of that, is a huge piece to the puzzle. You know, of course podcasts are a part of that. You look at how we consume information now. It's different from when we were kids. My point is you know, the way we consume information is different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And stuff like what you're doing through your organization the podcast, social media stuff is how people are learning. So, yeah, for you to come on here and talk about the organization and you're shooting that flare up. You know, this is a way for people to understand and learn about. These. Things are available because just people don't know. So it's really cool to talk about how not only vets but civilians that want to get an aviation can do that and what the pathway may look like for them. So kudos to you for doing that.
Speaker 1:I want to go back to your book.
Speaker 1:A lot of times you know, i find that you know whether you're in the military or in public service. You know we have front row seats, oftentimes to some of the most interesting things in life, right, like whether you're deployed or you're at home, whatever the thing is, you see some really interesting things going through your book. There was two incidents I want to kind of debrief, if we can, because I think there's some really cool learning points in both of them. One of them you outlined it was I'll probably mess this up a little bit, but just to recall your memory, you guys launched for Medevac. You were the second ship. I think you have self-launched because you realize that there is going to be more casualties and more of a need for Medevac than one ship can handle. So you took off and the first ship in goes in. It's hot. They end up getting hit by gunfire which makes their hydraulic system go down and you know they go back, fly back successfully, complete some. Some EPs get back on the ground. Can you talk about that to start?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, first of all, that's just divine providence. We don't downrange, we didn't get to practice emergency procedures except during our A part window, which is our recurrent in our annual test in your birth month, right? And so that wasn't something that you did very often because you can't, you know you can't, you can't waste blade time, right. So we didn't train, we just reindeer craft up, went to Chow and then the other guys could go to Chow. We had to cover for each other because you met a back right. So I took out my buddy Alex one day. I said, hey, let's go do some training. Everybody's like, huh, we never did it. And I something just told me let's go do this. And we went out and did roll on landings. So you know, if you lose a tail rotor, you'll be able to get friction with the, with the tires in the ground, before you get below a critical speed where the tail rotor is not offloaded and you start spinning in the opposite direction of the rotor rotation. So we practice, we practice several in a row.
Speaker 2:I think I did one, he did one, i did one, he did one. Then I think he did, he did another one, i made him do like two or three more And I don't know why, man, if something just told me we need to go do this, and of course my crew chief's in the back like I want to miss breakfast, don't worry about it, just do it. And he's like why? It's like, i don't know, just do it. You know, fast forward. A couple weeks later we go into the water purr and they got an RPG sailed right over their rotor system and they got stitched up in the rear with AK 47 fire hit their hydraulic system, spewing out hydraulics, blew it on the on the crew chief. They were bleeding to death. So they had to go back to Jalalabad, which is, you know, maybe like a 30, 45 minute flat, i can't remember.