The Digital Front Line: Social Media Strategy for Public Safety with Tamrin Olden Part 2 | Ep 364

Welcome back to the Hangar Z Podcast, brought to you by Vertical HeliCASTS, in partnership with Vertical Valor Plus.

In this comprehensive two-part conversation, Jon Gray and Jack Schonely are joined by Tamrin Olden, founder of TOC Public Relations, to discuss why social media has become a mission-critical tool for modern public safety. 

Moving beyond the "ancillary duty" mindset, Tamrin explains how a strategic digital presence is the foundation for community trust, transparency, and successful recruitment.

Throughout this episode, we dive deep into the friction between traditional law enforcement leadership and the fast-paced digital world, exploring how to overcome the "paralysis by analysis" that often keeps agencies silent. 

Tamrin breaks down the difference between "vanity metrics" (like viral dance videos) and "value-driven content" that authentically showcases the expertise and humanity of a department.

Key topics discussed in this episode include:

The Strategy of Storytelling: Why agencies like Phoenix PD and Irvine PD succeed by focusing on "Human-Centered Storytelling" rather than just posed award photos.

Aviation and Specialized Units: Tactical advice for air units on using social media to justify budgets, educate the public on capabilities, and provide a "peek behind the curtain" through Tech Tuesdays.

Overcoming Leadership Hurdles: How to "supervise up" and package social media proposals that address administrative fears regarding negative comments and legal liability.

Crisis Communications: Why the phrase, “no comment,” is a strategy for failure. We discuss lessons learned from major incidents like Ferguson and Uvalde, and the importance of releasing facts on your own terms to control the narrative.

The Digital Recruitment War: Why your agency’s "digital fingerprint" is the first thing a potential recruit looks at, and how to use social media for attracting new talent and retaining current staff.

Whether you are a social media manager, a unit leader, or a command staff member, this episode provides a tactical "starter pack" for building a professional, effective, and transparent communication strategy.

Check out TOC Public Relations at www.tocpublicrelations.com/

Thank you to our sponsors Onboard Systems Hoist & Winch, Metro Aviation and Trakka Systems.

Transcript

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The Hanger Z podcast welcomes Tamar Nolden. Unfortunately, a lot of times it's we want to highlight every unit, every team. We have motors, we have SROs, we have detectives. And I'm sitting here going, okay, guys, so does everybody else. They do. And I call them yearbook videos because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by focusing on one person over the other. You know, and then I sit there and I go, Do you want my opinion? Focus on what makes you different. Focus on storytelling. Focus on things that people are going to connect with that makes your agency stand out. Everybody has those things. I mean, those are a given, but that's not why somebody would pick your organization. They're going to pick your organization because they're going to see themselves there. Throughout the history of the Hanger Z podcast, I've talked a lot about the importance of social media as a way to promote internally and externally your aviation unit. So in this comprehensive two-part series, Jack Shaley and I are joined by Tamarin Olden, founder of Talk Public Relations, to discuss why social media has become a mission critical tool for modern public safety. Moving beyond the ancillary duty mindset, Tamron explains how strategic digital presence is the foundation for community trust, transparency, and successful recruitment. Throughout this episode, we've dive deep into the friction between traditional law enforcement leadership and the fast-paced digital world, exploring how to overcome the paralysis by analysis that often keeps agencies silent. Tamron breaks down the difference between vanity metrics, like viral dance videos, and value-driven content that authentically showcases the expertise and humanity of an apartment. Whether you're a social media manager, a unit leader, or a command staff member, this episode provides a tactical starter pack for building a professional, effective, and transparent communication strategy involving social media. Thanks for our sponsors, Onboard Systems, Hoist and Lynch. Tracker Systems and Metro Aviation. Welcome to the Hanger Z Podcast, brought to you by Vertical Helicast. The Hanger Z Podcast is the first and only podcast dedicated to promoting and exploring the personnel and equipment behind the missions in public safety aviation. So Southbound's getting to a stop. Okay, the guy he's running through the house, jumping the fence, through the shotgun, through something out, grabbing the shotgun. Don't go over that fence, don't go over that fence, grab the shotgun again. If he is armed, stay there, hold your position. For the person scrolling through, if if you can't recall the agency of the of the post that maybe maybe somewhat resonated with you, you saw it, it's like, oh, it's interesting, but who was it? But Phoenix seems to have found a way to solve that problem. You know, you and I do it, John, right? Right? We talk about stuff. I go, hey, John, man, I saw this cool. I can't remember which agency it was. I say that all the time. You know, so just success in what they chose, failure in branding it properly, so that I don't forget what it is when I tell my friend, hey John, you should look at this video. I don't know what agency it was, but it's really cool. You know, it's like, well, I got half the message. And it's an it sounds to me, Tamron, that that's an easy solution from your perspective. Absolutely. You know, being unique, being distinct, using the same silver patch logo on everything. I mean, come on. Phoenix, I I visualize the colors, they pop, they're different, they're not your basic law enforcement colors, they're bright. That to me is just genius branding. And you'd be surprised how many agencies just don't understand that. Something as simple as your brand is going to allow people to connect with your content more and you know, get more reach. Such an important point. Great. The the last point I'll bring up when it as it relates to the Phoenix stuff is as you guys talk about the posts that they've created, what to me that highlights is excellence, you know, through the employees, what's expected of the recruits and in training, and then what what they expect of their units as they go into specialized areas. So when we talk about buy-in as a citizen, they're seeing all these demonstrations of excellence in the police department that services them. You know, I think that's important to highlight. A lot of folks, uh, you know, the only interaction they may have had with law enforcement might have been one traffic stop. And that one traffic stop may sour their their understanding or or um you know uh reputation of that law enforcement agency. But if you as a you know, your social media strategy promote these folks that are you know from all walks of life but have excellence as the one common theme that that is interwoven in that, it it goes a long way. The next part of that is is transparency. You know, as it relates to aviation in general, uh we tend to be the highest uh dollar budget amount on any any budget that exists within the police department in the city in general. So a lot of people talk about the need for transparency as it relates to aviation. So talk about the tools that we could utilize through social media to highlight and be transparent in what these programs do and accomplish. So, like I I mentioned earlier, you know, it's showing value, it's showing outcomes, not just, oh, here's cool footage or photos or video. Like everybody loves seeing the photos and video, right? That's easy. But what were the outcomes? You know, do you know you save lives, you save time and hours by being able to search an area versus you know, having people on foot. Um, you're able to get places quicker. Um, so you're showing the value to we're actually saving time and resources, saving lives, you know, we're reducing time, increasing responses, improving officer safety. These are outcomes and things that are measurable. And you could use, you know, you don't want to be stat heavy, but be able to have underlying messages of, hey, we're able to get there quicker, which means we're increasing, you know, the probability of someone who's in, you know, a life-saving rescue type situation that they're increasing their survival rate, we're improving officer safety, we're decreasing the amount of officers who need to respond to something. Um, and you could pair data and numbers with storytelling. And, you know, instead of just, hey, we assisted, this is what we responded to, a person was apprehended, you know, where it's just kind of news release uh with maybe a cool photo or video, that you're actually, you know, explaining things. People don't realize what goes into it and the value that comes with it. They just see, you know, the big dollar sign. Oh, do we really need this? Um, yes, we do. And here's why. And here's the examples, and here's how we actually save time, money, and you know, uh help save lives and help with, you know, keep our personnel safe and our community safe. So by showing those things, it's easy to say, yeah, of course, I support that. I mean, an agency like Phoenix, who every day is showing, they are busting their butts, saving lives, solving crimes. I saw they highlighted a couple of years ago, and it the story just stuck with me. It was a cold case uh that they solved, and cold case is just, oh my gosh, the time and the energy and effort. It's not people's favorite caseload in the in the bureau. And they highlighted one of those and showing value in all these positions so that way when it comes to spending money doing something, they're gonna go, it's a no-brainer. We know that it provides value. We know that they work hard to keep our community safe, and we're seeing the outcomes of that. So I think that, you know, again, it starts with the foundation of the buy-in, the support, the trust. So that way they're not gonna question those things. They they know that at the end of the day, that this is gonna be something that's gonna benefit their community. Yeah, I think going back to internal marketing, that that same uh concept applies, you know, there as well. What that messaging may be going out for the general public for them to you know understand what we do and for the transparency that goes in there, but it applies then to the young officers who maybe year one of patrol, but see the aviation footage be like, hey, that'd be really cool. I didn't really did that, but I want to get there. Or just the general understanding of the folks, this is what the capabilities are of our aviation program. Um so I think that that kind of stuff is huge. Uh you know, as as people start to formulate um the the concept of a social media program for their agency or their unit, again, without giving too much away out of out of the academy, because I think it's important for for people to go and get the full training that you offer, talk about some of the platforms that that uh you find to be important for social media, because there's a ton of them, right? That at some point it's overwhelming. Talk about the ones that agencies uh should focus on. I would say, you know, depending on what your message is, different platforms would be more appropriate over others. Um I would say in general, uh Instagram tends to do well with short form video content. Um, you get a lot of people consuming a lot of content on there. Um, you have a little bit younger of a demographic on there, and it's more visual focused, photo carousels, short form videos, you know, vertical videos, mostly, you know, reels. And that would be one that if you had to choose one to focus a little bit more on, I would choose that. You could easily throw stuff up on stories to keep people engaged, you know, that will disappear after 24 hours. And it's a pretty simple platform to manage for longer form content. Uh I would say, you know, obviously Facebook's been around for a long time. It's one of the first ones that you know most agencies became familiar with. Uh, people are in Facebook with the expectation to consume, you know, longer captions, longer videos. So if you're gonna have you know longer form content, uh I would say that you know, having it uh published on Facebook would be appropriate. Sometimes you can take one message and do the longer version of it on Facebook and then doing a shorter version of it on Instagram just because the audience, uh, the time that they're gonna spend consuming each piece of content is gonna vary slightly. If you're doing longer form content, maybe you're doing a series of questions, or maybe the Tech Tuesday is a 10-minute video, but then you splice it up into shorter ones uh for Instagram or Facebook, but you put the longer one on YouTube because people are going to YouTube with the intention of watching longer form videos. Um short little incident-related updates, like uh if there's a disaster, a perimeter, an evolving active incident, that's where X, you know, formerly Twitter is gonna be more appropriate. So depending again, what your messaging is and what piece of content you have to put out there, it's gonna vary. You could take one message and do variations of it across all platforms, but it's important, regardless, to look at your metrics. You're getting a lot of engagement, a lot of reach on one platform, then maybe you focus on that more. Or, hey, these types of videos and photos aren't doing really well on Facebook, but they're doing really well on Instagram. So you have to constantly adjust your strategy and use that data, use the numbers so that way you can hone in and focus on what content works better where. And it might vary from agency to agency. You have some that X does great, and you have other agencies that their community just really isn't engaged on that platform. Maybe it's more of a news focus platform for the media outlets. The metrics side of thing is really interesting to me. There's so much data that's available within each platform to kind of drive and help you make decisions on what works and what doesn't. Talk about some of the metrics that you find to be most valuable and that people should be looking at. I would say engagement as in people taking action. Are they commenting, liking, sharing, saving your content? So that's showing something beyond just a quick scroll. Another thing to look at when you have videos is the watch time. So are they just glancing for the first five seconds and then moving on, or are they actually going through the majority and watching the full length or most of your video? That might also lead you to go, hmm, we're losing them in the first five seconds. So maybe we look at the style of the content we're putting out there. Do we have a hook? And what's funny is you have a lot of non-government and public safety organizations or businesses that do a really good job at hooking people in, right? Uh they do a little teaser clip in the beginning, or they, hey, um, have you ever noticed this or stop doing that? And you go, wait, what are they gonna say? Versus we like to be very um timeline on this time and day. We responded here, and then this happened, then this happened, this has happened, and this was the result. Where you have even the media, they flip it, right? Where they show the results or a teaser of it first. So I always tell people, look at what other non-government and law enforcement organizations do. When you're watching and consuming content, you know, as a viewer, as a consumer, what made you stop and watch that? What made you go and read the full caption? What made you scroll through the carousella photos and then take those concepts and apply them? Um, and I, you know, in the class, there's a lot of examples that I'll use and I'll put up. I have kids very, very active in sports. I'm very involved in their sports, so I follow a lot of sports accounts. Sports industry does a really good job at that, getting people hooked initially and then going through with the rest of their content. So still that same concept and apply it toward your your page. Yeah, I love the idea of looking at uh other industries and taking what's works best for them and applying that to us because I feel like we're so far behind the curve most times with whatever the thing is, but in particular social media. So yeah, look at look at what's successful elsewhere and and just come up with a way to apply that here. Again, for the agencies that are or maybe wanting to start a program, uh I called it the starter pack, you know. What should people expect as far as personnel and equipment goes to to successfully launch a program? And I know there's there differs, you know, based on the size of the department, everything that is in the in the middle there, but you know, from personnel to equipment, what would you recommend just a starter pack to look like? So a lot of times, um like with myself, I had no budget, no training, no equipment. So I actually had to back in the day self-fund everything to buy my own stuff, pay for the software, put myself through training and just figure it out. Now you have agencies that understand that a little bit more, they have a little bit more resources available. So I would say if you're a smaller agency that doesn't have much to work with, you don't have to have anything fancy or or high production. Our phones can do some great things. There's tons of tools and apps that you could create great content with. So don't worry so much. Having a professional camera, DSLR camera, would be great, but it's not completely necessary. Maybe that's something that's a long-term goal that you could work on. But just having someone that's the lead that's gonna take charge, looking at your policy. Most policies are very limited and outdated when it comes to social media use, not personal use, but department use. So not only do you want to have someone who's gonna take the lead, you want to have look at your policy, look for training opportunities. And I would say to help get the support and buy-in, you want to keep your supervisors informed. I, you know, that that's huge. They don't understand the time and the thought process and the intricacies of what it takes to do something as simple as one post. They don't know what they don't know. So I used to have one of the lieutenants come in, hey, can you can you post this on this incident and stand like behind me at the desk? And I'm like, it's you think I'm just gonna crank this out in like 30 seconds? And what other project of the other 30 priorities the chief dumped on my desk do you want me to set aside so I can do this? So because they really think in their mind, oh, it's just it's just quick, right? I have to pull the report, I have to check for accuracy, I have to make sure that I confirm the details, uh, look at what can be released and what isn't gonna be released, confirm, you know, what inform what's the purpose of it? Are we wanting leads? Are we just educating? You know, I have what type of photo or video are we gonna include? There's, you know, how am I gonna adjust it for each of the platforms? There's a lot more that goes into it. So keeping leadership informed in the process is very, very helpful. Whether your mission is saving lives or servicing high value assets, onboard systems hoist stays ready to assist. Features such as single point payout, reduce the potential for hoist-induced load swings, enhancing overall safety. For more information, go to hoist-winch.onboardsystems.com. I would have a content calendar and go, hey, here's the things I'm gonna post on. Do you guys have anything? I would sit in and command staff every week in the very first portion, and I'd talk about media and social media. Oh, hey, you guys are gonna be opening up officer positions? Cool. I'll write that down, I'll come up with some content. Hey, you're looking to get some more explorers? Great, I'll talk to the explorer advisor and we'll work on that. They feel like they're informed and then they also have a piece of it, right? It's what's in it for me. Oh, you're gonna help me get explorers in our program, oh, you're gonna help me promote this. Great, I'm all about it, right? So you're keeping them informed and engaged, which will help you get that support. If you don't have a lot of staff to work with, have people a team, small team to start with, on an ancillary assignment basis that represent different units, different shifts, and different backgrounds. So some of the key things, someone in dispatch would be great. They have direct access to the computer to look up things. Um, they're usually very well informed of what's going on because they're literally getting play-by-plays. So that's very easy to put up a road closure or something simple or a missing person. So having someone in dispatch, traffic is another huge thing. A lot of incidents that we post about have to do with traffic-related stuff, whether it's a a fatal, a road closure, a checkpoint. So having someone that can focus on traffic-related stuff, I think would be huge. And then having someone who's involved in your community outreach, because of course that's so important to highlight. So if you get someone to help on your team, even on an ancillary assignment basis, maybe they're not even helping post because they're not comfortable yet, but they're giving you content and information, that's gonna be great because you're gonna have good representation from different, you know, you can't be everywhere at all times. I can't show up to every single event or incident. You can only do so much. So having that team helps give you different perspectives and good coverage so they can go and be, you know, representatives for you when you can't be there to get that content. Um, but one of the things that you want to make sure when I talked about policy is that the expectations for the members who are on the social media team are clear. This isn't your personal social media. You need to understand relevant and current laws and policies. Here's what you can and can't do. You got to use branding convention and standards, you have to come to quarterly meetings. It's like no, it's no different than any other ancillary assignment basis. You need to take it seriously because if you screw up, it's the entire department's reputation that is at risk. And I've seen it where they've posted something that was inappropriate, they made a bad judgment call, and now the department is dealing with the wrath of that. So take it seriously, and people will then who want to be part of it, take it seriously. They're not just thinking, oh, cool, well on patrol, I get a play on Instagram. No, that's not what it is. It's more than that. Here's your expectations, here's what the team is going to look like, and here's our strategy moving forward and how we're gonna keep command staff and management engaged and involved. Um, and I think that you could do that without a huge, huge budget. I think the theme of the conversation is the strategy that you keep bringing up. You know, come up with a plan and execute the plan according to you know what you've developed. And I think if you live in the boundaries, you'll be good. You talked about um the lieutenant coming in and dumping something on you and what goes into doing that. Everyone, you know, is is fighting the fire of the day in a lot of cases. And and what struck me as you as you talked about that was talking about the relevant facts that can be released. Um there's laws that surrounding all kinds of incidents that we're talking about. Um so I'll just ask you to speak in generalities. One about you know, some of the pitfalls that exist as it relates to releasing information on a pursuit, because most aviation units are over a pursuit. Um and then some of the legal things just to consider. Again, I don't want to take too much away from the training that you offer, but just a few things that people should consider when it comes to legal things. And I think some of it may seem uh a bit obvious, but some of it may not. You know, it's it's crazy to me that a lot of people don't know what the are not familiar with Public Records Act and what can be released and what can't be, what needs to be redacted and not, and when you can release things. So obviously it's gonna vary uh a slightly depending on where you're at, um, and then also looking at your you know individual policies, but what is publicly releasable? And the other side of it that I would always use to kind of push back again, Tamron pushing the envelope. Like she does, they would say, Well, oh, we don't want to release that. I go, Okay. So when the media calls and does an inquiry on this incident and they're legally allowed to have the information, we can't release it, but the media can. I mean, if we release the rapport or release the information or release body cam footage, you're saying we can't post the body cam footage, but we can give it to a media agency to release it the way that they want to. Speculate however they want. How is it exactly? How is it that the same day a news agency is putting their own footage up or getting body worn camera footage and putting it out there, yet we're not putting it up? And it's crazy to me how you have, I've had a lot of chiefs and attorneys say, Oh, you have to wait till the case is over. I'm like, we're gonna wait two, three years to post this. How is it that other agencies are putting it out there? As long as you're not putting information that is, you know, uh, that's confidential, you redact certain things. I mean, you can put it out there. There's nothing wrong with it. And again, you hand over five hours of footage from three different officers on a critical incident to the media because they did a request. So you'll do that, but then we won't post, you know, a 20-second clip with some context to get ahead of the story so that way we're not having to deal with that to answer people's questions and you know, shut down assumptions or misinformation. So it's kind of odd that they don't understand, you know, hey, this is Public Records Act, this is reduction laws, this is not anything out of the norm of what is publicly accessible. We don't need to put all of that out there, but even a fraction of you know, a piece of video, body worn camera footage, surveillance footage is going to shut down a lot of things. And agencies are still in that old school mentality of don't release it, keep it confidential, we don't put that information out there, it's gonna compromise safety. And in reality, what about it's gonna compromise safety? Um, and there's been several times where you know the media puts it out, and then I would have to say, Chief, we we didn't put this out yet the media put it out. Yeah, like make it make sense. It doesn't. So, and then all these other agencies are putting information out literally as it's evolving and happening. Of course, we want to keep you know, tactical operations and you know, um investigative resources or leads confidential, but you could say a lot without diving into that, just to appease the public to let them know hey, you're safe, we're on it, this is what's happening, and here's a visual that goes along with it. Two two of the biggest failures in this, what you just talked about, Cameron, are are Rodney King, and that's before social media, and Ferguson. And in both cases, there was an opportunity that the departments had to release information and uh and get that the truth and the narrative out. In both cases, they failed. And in both cases, the narrative then went to um liars and to media and to people that weren't there saying things that weren't true, and actually, and I will point out that both of them ended in civil unrest. How about that? Isn't that isn't that fascinating, you know? And in both cases, if they had handled it correctly, like you just described, I don't think either of those cases would have gone the route they did, especially ending up with civil unrest, because people would have known, oh, there's more to this story. Absolutely. But I mean, Rodney King, uh that video was uh taken to the police station and they said, get out of here. And where do they go next with it? To a TV station. Okay, so right there they failed. Uh Ferguson, you know, oh, they they said it over and over. We can't talk about it. We can't ongoing investigation can't discuss this. Okay, well then some little punk that was with him is gonna tell the a story that's a that's a proven lie now. And what do we end up with? Hands up, don't shoot. I mean, we have NBA players wearing shirts with that on during warm-ups. A complete lie, but it was be and and I don't and I'm not pointing fingers at the liar as much as I am the police department. It's your fault. It's your fault. You allowed that narrative to go because you stood there and said we can't talk about it. And I love that you pointed that out. I mean, five hours of body cam, hand it to a media source, they're gonna find stuff in there, okay? They're gonna find something in there that that because they don't like us to begin with, that that they're gonna run with. Why not have us release the segment that actually shows what happened without compromising anybody's rights or you know, are there ways to do that? And you made it very clear there are ways to do that, and and that's why they need people like you, you know, to advise them. In the Ferguson report, they they talk about that. And another one in the Uvaldi report, there's I think six pages of that report has to do specifically with their horrible communications. There's actually the quote, the Mark Twain quote, in that report, a lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes. Yep. In in the Uvaldi report. Isn't that incredible? I mean, and in all these major incidents, it's the same thing over and over and over again. It's horrible communications, it's lack of timeliness and transparency. I mean, agencies think, oh, it won't happen here. Well, we have we we didn't hear about these agencies until these incidents happened, and now everybody knows them, and it's not for a good reason. That's right. I mean, I had never heard of the town of Uvaldi. I had never heard of Ferguson. LA is LA, you know, it's it's that's completely different. But you're absolutely right. Uh, it's it's just amazing. So, what what's the answer there? I mean, obviously you you understand the law and and and that there are still people in positions of power in politically and in within police departments using that line today. Somewhere in America, some police department will say, we can't talk about that. So, what what is the problem, Tamar? Is it just ignorance? Is it reluctance to know? Is it just, well, that's how we've always done it? What's the issue there, do you think? I think it's a combination of of all those things that you mentioned. They don't know, they didn't learn this in the academy, maybe they hadn't learned about it in their leadership courses. Maybe it's something that they just truly do not have a grasp on. When I do these social media for admin courses, a lot of them have none or very limited experience with social media. So, you know, now they're in a position where they're having to make decisions on something that they don't know how to do. And I know this might come across as harsh, and I don't draw a parallel of me having knowledge on the sworn side, but you're telling me to do a job that you don't know how to do and have not done yourself, which is difficult because you know, I would never show up during a SWOT operation and be like, hey guys, I really think you shouldn't do this. Be like, this woman's crazy. Just like someone who has no insight experience or training coming in and having a social media manager or PO that does have training, because there are some that do not have training. So I'm talking about someone who's seasoned that knows what they're doing, saying, like, hey, I think we should say no comment, or I think we should not post, or let's not put out a holding statement, or don't do a media interview. You're going, hold on. This is this is my bread and butter, this is what I do. And, you know, so it's a lack of understanding of actually what it's like. And unfortunately, sometimes some agencies have to learn the hard way. Yeah, they have to learn the hard way. And that and it comes when someone does a PRA and now they're going and they're putting it out there. There's an agency here in um Southern California in LA County that is struggling with recruitment, and it all stems from them having a controversy in their department, having to do with personnel that blew up in the media that was not handled properly, and they are paying for it still. And it's been, I think about five years now, almost five years. And it's it's killing them. And something, you know, sometimes they have to learn the hard way to go, crap. We should have got ahead of it. We shouldn't have let, you know, uh LA Times or you know, some other news source go and roam with the story. Now we're playing defense. We should have taken ownership over things that we messed up. Yep, you know, I some sometimes it's ugly and you gotta have difficult conversations and it's you know, dress up, step up, and fess up, and then move the hell move the hell on. Because if you've been doing things right, if you have the trust, if you have the transparency, if you have the community relationships, when one bad thing happens, they're gonna go, you know what? That person or that incident doesn't define that agency. I know they're better than that. I'm gonna give them some grace. They're dealing with it the way that they should. I'm gonna support them and on to the next. Oh, so well said. On to the next. Yep. It's it's funny too. Personality comes into play here too, with leadership. Where I've said this for years. This is not a new talking point from Jack on uh for this for this conversation, where for years I said, if I was ever in a something controversial, maybe even uh out of policy, and I was involved in it, I know who I want in front of the cameras from my department. And it was Jim McDonald. Okay, the current chief there. He was a deputy chief and all that years ago when I was working. Now it's not just because I've known Jim for a long time and he's a podcast guest and and all that. People go, oh, Jack just likes him. Yeah, I do. One of the reasons I like him though was because I watched him get in front of the camera so many times, and he is honest, genuine, transparent, as far as he can be. And he will take it right to that limit and say, Okay, that I can't answer, but I can tell you this. I never heard him say, can't talk about it. Next question, no, can't talk about that. Next question, can't talk about never right he would say something and and it I saw him represent people that were in some some wild stuff, and I went, that's who I want talking about my situation because he's genuine. You know, and some people, there's other leadership on my department over the past 40 years where I wouldn't want them within a thousand miles of a camera talking about that incident. Yeah, because I they would make it worse, they would make it a hundred times worse, and not just the no comment stuff that we're talking about. I mean, it they'd make it worse because they don't know how to talk, and they're not genuine people. They're they're not you know, people that when you look at Jim, you you just go, he's telling me the truth. I mean, I you just feel that, you know, because and it's because that's how he is, that's his core value. Um, does how much does personality come into play? I mean, you you had to go and deal with this sort of thing. How much does personality come into play in conveying the truth? Thank you to our sponsor, Metro Aviation. Metro Aviation, the world's largest family-owned aeromedical operator, offers comprehensive aircraft services with 160 plus aircraft in over 25 states. The completion center installs medical and law enforcement kits in avionics, serving diverse aviation needs including offshore, utility, VIP, and corporate sectors. It's it's so hard because, and this is nothing against you know, some of my previous leadership, but sometimes the delivery style and method, they want a script, they want to be behind a podium, they want a teleprompter, they want the questions ahead of time. It comes off, it's so like it's just not authentic. It's not engaging. You're thinking, okay, are you reading a script? Do you really know what's going on? I think the most impactful media statements or videos or however you want to put it out there, you show emotion. You maybe fumble over your words. You say, um, maybe you get pissed a little bit. Yes. You're not reading from a script. And that resonates with people to go, hey, this is a crappy situation, but they care about it. I sense emotion, they're gonna take this seriously. And there was a couple times where we did media interviews. I was actually, it's funny, people say, Were you in news media before? And like, no, I wasn't. Um, and I would show up and the media would say, Okay, they're assuming they're gonna interview me. And usually one of the command staff members would take, they want them doing in the interview, which I understand. So I'd prep them, go through everything, okay, here's what we're gonna say, not say, here's your speaking points. The media would go, why can't you do it? Because the way that they are gonna go just read from a script, use military time and jargon is just not gonna come across. And there were a couple times where they go, Hey, do you did you see the coverage? Did you see the media? I go, Yeah, they did it. How come they didn't use most of my interview? You really want to know? You want my honest opinion? You tell me a lot. Yes, and they want someone, you know, and not even to necessarily say that's that's always me. I'm not saying that, but it's the like you said, the right people. And, you know, you have to really think about in an extreme case, like you said, you're thinking in your mind, if something crazy happened, I know who I would want protecting me. Think about the people who bosses and leadership say nothing, who are in lawsuits and the attorneys say nothing, whose you know, union says nothing. I've actually I do publicist work on a personal side. I don't advertise it. I'm very selective in my clients, but I have several clients that are in litigation um with their departments, and no one's speaking up for them. Yeah, they're saying, Oh, it's you know, being litigated, we can't say, we can't comment on you know, pending lawsuits is their catch-all. And they're going, um, I'm being accused and slandered, my family's being impacted, I'm being threatened, and you guys are saying nothing. You're gonna wait two years for this to go through when everyone's moved on and I finally am found innocent, or the facts are being put out there when there's stuff that legally can be put out there. So I've worked with law firms helping with um, you know, on the publicity side. And then actually I've had chiefs, I've had officers, I've had unions reach out to go, someone has to speak up for our guys. We can't just put them through the ringer. And, you know, I have a client we do there, did his website, he's spoken at my conference, um, John Mattingley, and he was uh the Brianna Taylor case. And one of the biggest things in his book, and when he tells a story, is that they said and did nothing. Yep. And his his life was literally being threatened. He had to go into hiding, move his family when there was a lot of things that could have been fixed. And when he goes, and even when I heard his full story for the first time and read his book, I go, holy crap, I didn't know all of that. Geez, that would have been nice. That would have saved a lot of heartache if they would have just put that out in the beginning. And those were facts that they knew initially and never put it out there. I mean, imagine being that officer who has you just left out to dry, your family being threatened, you got to go into hiding, you're burning through your time, now you're you know, financially being impacted, stress, PTSD, all those things while they're like, yeah, no comment. Yep, yep. I mean, that's horrible. And the sad thing is I could see that happening with a lot of agencies. Oh my gosh, yeah. A lot of agencies. And he's just one example of when I heard his full story, I was like, man, this was just an epic failure on so many levels. And you know, uh, somebody had to suffer and have their career impacted over it. It's this is a serious topic. Yeah, it is. And I'll I'll end this the my thoughts on this with this. It you must jump out of your chair watching the news because I know I do. And I think John does too, because we talk about this now and then, where an incident happens somewhere in America, and the chief or the assistant chief or the sheriff gets on and they start talking about it. And you sit there and go, somebody give this guy the hook right now. Somebody, there's got to be somebody better on this department. I don't care if it's the rookie that just got out of the academy, but somebody put them in there to talk because this person does is not representing that department well. They can't speak, they are in way over their head, they should defer. They maybe they should say no comment. It's like that might be better. So, you know, it's just amazing how much of that is out there. But there's times where I literally jump out of my chair and go, Stop, stop talking. You must jump out of your chair a lot. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I'm sitting here going, Oh my gosh, you know, where's your PIO? Or uh uh even somebody on command staff, Captain, going, Hey, you know, uh, what's our plan? Maybe you should say this, or maybe you're not the best person to to deliver that. Yeah. I mean, it it's just it's crazy that they, you know, that their strategy is that that's the best you can come up with. I mean, it's it's crazy. It's uh no knowledge, no experience. You know, many, many of them they lack knowledge, experience, and training in the topic that they're talking about. It's evident on the third syllable that that they don't know anything about this. I mean, I'm thinking of incidents right now, right? Big incidents. I'll I'll mention one New Orleans, the the car that went down bourbon stream. Oh, yes. That chief can't talk, okay, and shouldn't talk about anything tactical or planning. Or it was awful. It was awful, and it it's gonna result in New Orleans paying a bigger uh a bigger settlement down the road because they're gonna get they were in the wrong on that. It was they went zero foresight, and then you have somebody who can't speak and saying stupid things and things way out of their their lane, um, it was crazy, especially with specialized stuff. Let's face it. We we we interviewed the chief of uh Louisville, he's a former SWAT officer. He can talk about SWAT stuff. I mean, he and he's he's very respected chief. I mean, people around the country know who he is, uh, but he can talk about stuff like that. And he's also level-headed enough and smart enough to know, well, canine, I'm not as quite, you know, I don't know quite as much about that, but I'm gonna get you somebody who is. Absolutely. You know, that's I want him representing me. I want him in front of the cameras for me too. You know, not somebody that's gonna go, well, this canine stuff, it's kind of complicated, but let me give it a try here. No. Right. Well, and even like I said, it even with my department, I'm not saying that needed to be me on camera at all because there's a lot of areas that I don't have the expertise in. But let's find someone who does. Let's find someone who's a detective who's involved in the case, a motor officer who's involved in the traffic collision. I mean, someone who actually has knowledge of, you know, of what's going on when there's certain circumstances where expertise is going to, you know, play heavily into how the public is gonna, you know, right, the public perception. That's right. Sometimes the the the SMEs are don't have stars and bars on. Your your most knowledgeable person might be the lowest ranked person on the entire department, but they know more about this topic than than anybody else. Let's use them. Let's use them. Come in and talk about this, you know, because you know, but a lot of ego gets in the way, doesn't it? Ego and law enforcement? What? I know, I know. This is funny. Never, never, never, never. It goes back to what we've been talking about the whole time, having a strategy and a plan in place for when something does go wrong. And we've talked about this all the time in the podcast. You don't want the first time you're doing something to be the first time you're doing something. You talked about Evaldi and some of the other agencies, Ferguson, that you know, I didn't know that those towns, I've never even seen those towns, but all of a sudden they're thrust in the you know the fore the forefront of public opinion. Uh so these things can happen any town, any place, anytime. Right. So having to plan a place to talk about something should be something that's done well in advance. Understanding who some of your your talking heads should be, you know, you know, based on whatever the investigation type is, I think is really important. One thing that we've kind of laid the groundwork for about PR and about these major incidents is the the need for social media to develop that trust and transparency, like you said early on, so that when something does happen, it's almost a blip on the radar. You know, you've you've created so much trust and understanding in the community of what your department does. that it's it's no surprise well it's it's a surprise that this happens but it doesn't totally tarnish the reputation of of that of that department I want to go back for a second um you talked about the officer who was who was put through the ringer who uh ultimately was cleared uh we had Dr. Tonya Glenn on she's a psychologist that that uh comes on the podcast regularly and writes for vertical magazine she's amazing uh she uh did a video highlighting an officer who was went through exactly what you're talking about his name's Donnie and what he experienced and what he talks about is gut wrenching you know and and like you said Tamron that is not isolated to a small number of officers. Uh I didn't realize that was a service that that you offered um really cool that that you uh do that and have that as part of your repertoire it's something that should be considered you know for for agencies for unions uh for units uh to to think of if something happens and your agency is not on your side uh hiring a PR firm who understands public safety and law enforcement in particular would be a huge benefit isn't funny how we thought of Donnie when when Tamron was talking you and I were both thinking of Donnie immediately I said oh is she talking about Donnie? Well she could be talking about a thousand officers but but we that's fresh in our mind from Tanya and and it's exactly what you described Tamron. Exactly right yeah you know working with unions a lot of times the unions will will reach out when they're frustrated and saying hey the department's not doing anything and then like I said I've worked with uh quite a few law firms as well that understand it and go hey you know it and what's funny is I again I'm the envelope pusher there is a big big case that I worked with one of the local law firms here retired cop um attorney and he you know I said hey this is the department's gonna be it was actually a city um that I had worked with and then I had eventually worked with the PD there as well as I said hey we're making accusations against this uh political figure he's saying that he didn't sexually harass he's saying he didn't do this we have text messages put them out there and there do you never see people do oh no that's part of the investigation that's evidence this or that why can't you release it and so we did here are screenshots of text messages and that shut down the oh you know they're just money hungry girls they want this or that oh really your text message say otherwise next yep and they were so uncomfortable with us doing that but I mean what are you gonna say? That just shuts everything down. The credibility of that person is just gone. It's just publicly his word against theirs you know when you're a politician you know in power and you have trust and resources that maybe someone who's a victim doesn't I mean you you put the facts out there. I'm had the same thing happen with a chief who was uh who was accused of sexual harassment and um claimed all these things and when you know we were able to expose and put out there a little bit more context of the accuser what do you know their story changes and there's nothing wrong with that but in the mentalities oh you you can't talk about that you can't put that out there you know there's litigation going on yes you absolutely can there are some parameters but you can put stuff out there and sometimes it's maybe doing it through the union or even through the law firm that you can do stuff to protect the reputation because again two years later too late even longer it's too late. They formulated your their opinion on you on the case and they moved on and meanwhile your reputation and career is gone. Even if you're completely cleared of it. And by the way Tamron Donnie and he could he contemplated suicide I mean this guy contemplated suicide not unusual in under under his circumstances I mean that's how serious it gets it's not just reputation it's not just you know financial it ruins people's lives it does it does and he's man I'd love to shake his hand someday I mean uh it's it's amazing and he's one of many like like we're talking about it happens all the time thanks to our sponsor Track A Systems with over 25 years delivering groundbreaking searchlights stabilized DOIR cameras mission mapping and downlinking solutions track of products improve situational clarity and coordination with ground crews increasing mission safety and effectiveness visit trackasystems.com see clearly act decisively well going back to the idea of of a strategy and a plan to develop your program whether it's the social media program or the or the PR piece uh it's it's evident and very clear you know knowing you Tamron and and talking to you today looking at your your business and and what you do you're the go-to expert when it comes to all things surrounding that for agencies who are interested in training that that want to better their program talk about the the conference that you run and some of the other offerings that you have that agencies that could take advantage of that and make their agency and their unit better for for that. Sure. So anything from training we host training classes some are webinars I've been doing monthly webinars that are just an hour very inexpensive on a single topic like recruitment and retention like crisis communications I have one next week on communicating critical incidents through videos and what you can and can't do and include and say and how to deliver that consulting to where I have you know some agencies that if an officer involved shooting happens were helping edit the the critical incident video scripting the chief give helping them with media statements reviewing all the video and helping them navigate because a lot of agencies they don't deal with it on a day-to-day basis. So when it happens it's very infrequent it's not something that they kind of you know have a frame of reference for all the time to do it you know confidently and comfortably so I help them navigate from what to say to the media helping them film statements shooting and editing and putting together the critical incident videos so helping out on the crisis comms side of it. And then of course the training classes we do an annual conference we're gonna be putting out more info on that we're gonna be hosting it here in a Orange County area that's where we're based out of uh so we can we'll be putting out more information on that on our website talkpublicrelations.com uh so yeah anything from consulting to training uh to actually doing it for you I mean some agencies are at different levels and have different resources so depending on what that looks like what's nice is that I have the insight and the knowledge having worked in public safety myself. My lead project manager who's my number one go-to who helps me out and also helps out with the website development is a retired cop. So you have people who actually have been there. I'm not some marketing general marketing company that's applying concepts that I apply toward every other industry. It's unique it's different it's challenging you're dealing with egos you're dealing with public perception that's very you know sensitive and important. And so it's important that you have somebody who has been there who understands and that's one of the things that we always say that that makes us different is that we've been there. We understand it we know what it looks like we know the challenges because we've been there and we're gonna help you navigate it. So and then of course on the recruitment side the photo video graphic design recruitment campaigns consulting just anything that's gonna help you communicate your agency better um improve your digital footprint and improve the trust and reputation that you have in the community. So all those items uh we cover and you know have the knowledge and expertise in. I love that it's huge because most agencies don't have the budget or expertise to understand all these things you're talking about. You've got to have somebody you can reach out to to develop your training your SPs and all the things that related to this conversation. San Diego PD when I worked there there was a retired news anchor that hosted or facilitated most of the PIO work which was great. And then I go to an agency that that uh didn't have anything as far as a PIO is concerned. So it to me illustrated you know the the two differences you know one agency has everything one others don't so you're kind of catering to all of those you have uh services that can enhance and and make those those agencies better that already have those things and you can be that point of contact and and even the the the spokesperson I would imagine for some of those agencies who don't have anything in place. You've absolutely helping agencies that don't have the travel budget to to go to in-person training through the webinars but also the the agencies that can that can send folks to Southern California uh for in-person training. I saw your last talk con your your conference was in Coronado right like who doesn't want to go to San Diego and go to Coronado for training. We had Bay views in for three days I mean it definitely was it wasn't bad and we're gonna be uh pretty close to the beach out here um in Orange County too during what I call the local summer which is the best time of year to be out here so you know great training good time good location so um yeah we definitely get a lot of good feedback that people go back and go okay now I have tools and resources to go back and not only do my job better but get my agency to support me better. And I have a full network of people who've been there who I could reach out to it's like you have an extension of your team and that's one of the most beneficial things I think of of coming out to the training. Yeah absolutely it's uh such a critical part I think of of our tool belt today to promote our agencies, our units uh for recruitment for retention all the things we've talked about today you know as as I was a kid and Jack we've talked about this a lot the TV shows that influenced us to to be interested in law enforcement like chips uh like you know all these other programs that existed don't exist anymore today's version of that is social media you know so I think it's really important to you know develop content and a strategy that influences and and motivates people to join this noble profession because it is a noble profession and you know as much as the general public or the general media wants to persuade people it's not I I I 100% wholeheartedly believe it it is. So before we close out uh Jack will go to you and then Tamron to you for closing thoughts. Uh closing thoughts Jack. Well this was a great conversation thrilled that you joined us Tamron uh really learned a lot and I now have to add Tamaron to the list of people that will represent me when I'm getting something wrong. Jim McDonald and now thank you Tamron or at least advising the person that's going to talk about uh my situation so that that's that's a big plus um so Tamron you're on that list now with the you know to to represent me but really valuable you had such good insight and it's very clear to me from the moment you started talking that you were uh all in when it comes to the law enforcement side we can't thank you enough Tamron for joining us this was wonderful uh really really educational learned a lot the the information you're providing is truly truly needed in law enforcement in America today by everyone and I don't care if it's a department of six or six thousand or thirty thousand it doesn't matter I I hear that a lot with you know over the years about oh we don't need that kind of training or we don't need that we're just a small department it's pretty safe community no everyone has critical incidents everyone has things that come up where you need the right people saying the right things and um and everybody needs bodies you know recruiting and retention so important and the image of that department I love that you stressed that so much today that that ongoing image is going to affect the success of that I mean I just read yesterday that it's projected LAPD is going to hire uh put 500 plus people through the academy in the next fiscal year. That's the all they're budgeted they're gonna get a gain a net gain of 10 10 officers is going to be the net gain of a fiscal year of academy training. Why is that? Because they can't get people to apply and they can't get qualified people to apply and and and they're losing people that go I've had it I've had it enough. So this is such an important topic and I I truly I'm with you. I mean John's truly the the the push behind the social media because it's more of his his era you know but I truly believe in it and I see the value of it if done correctly if done correctly and I love that you brought that out today too Tamron. So with that I just thank you very much. I really benefited from today and I know our listeners did uh thanks for joining us it was great. Tamarin any uh closing thoughts first just thank you for having me I could talk about social media um and the importance of it all day share my war stories um the successes the great things the agencies are doing I mean clearly I'm I'm passionate about it like I said I I fell into this this isn't what I wanted to do as a career but it is so needed and it's something that's so valuable and I really feel that uh you know it's mission critical it we gave so many examples from recruitment to critical incidents where people's officers you know livelihood is at stake uh to the safety of the community is impacted by it and you know so giving me a platform to be able to share that I really appreciate you giving giving me that um and I love when I see agencies grasp this concept buy into it and do a great job showing the great work that the men and women at their departments do every day because it's there. There's gems everywhere there's those little nuggets everywhere we just have to find them and we have to be willing to put it out there. And I'm telling you the impact that it will have on your agency will be immeasurable in so many different ways. So hopefully you listeners got something that you could take away that you could take back to your departments. Even it's just moving the needle a little bit to me that's a success. So you know I appreciate the opportunity. Yeah I think our goal in this conversation was to provide some tactical information that people could walk away from and apply and I think we've done that. You've offered a ton of advice and information that I hadn't considered before and at least not connected the dots in the way that you've connected them. So thank you for doing that. The last question I'll have for you we've you know we identified Phoenix as a model agency as far as social media goes. When you think through a lot of the other agencies that you've looked at as far as their social media content and strategy goes can you point out one more agency that that you've found does a generally does a really good job as it pertains to social media content and promotion of the of their agency I would say one that sticks out to me that does a good job balancing the dynamic of using a little bit of fun and humor while providing value and educating. They're an Orange County agency so they're not worried about the oh public perception here we, you know no crime here. They're actually rated one of the safest cities and yet they push out information about crime constantly they do it in a way that's engaging. They don't have to do any fancy high budget high-tech stuff yet they do a great job at being relevant and relatable that's Irvine Police Department. Their team puts out content constantly and because of what they do their engagement if you look at their posts they have hundreds of comments just on an Instagram post daily their shares their engagement they will add in some humor and fun but find a way to make it relevant and it's not distasteful which is where you know you want to draw the line. So I love what they're doing. I love how they're keeping the community engaged um the community loves it I applaud their their admin and their city for allowing them to deliver content in a way that's you know a little bit edgier and different and again I'm all about pushing the envelope and they do a good job at that. And I actually had the privilege one of the guys who's their PIO there who's on their PIO team I actually worked at uh worked with at Chino uh so now he's he's over there and he'd actually helped teach and work with my company for a while as well so I just love seeing agencies who are open to doing those things. So uh applaud Irvine for being uh a leader in that and especially in this area. Wow bravo Irving that's great. Yeah Ziggy's Ziggy's our PIO yeah I I had met Ziggy um I think in aviation he would had him up and maybe caught a flight with us and and then I saw that he moved on to Irvine and really recently saw him uh acting as a PIO I'm like oh that's really cool I had no idea he went there yeah funny how you know again small our community is and so many ways absolutely yeah we're always uh connected in some way but yeah I I love what they're doing I love what Ziggy's doing and I love that the department is open to it. Yeah. Well for those who didn't catch it earlier go to talkpublicrelations.com it's TOCpublicrelations.com to find information on on training and and how you can utilize Tamron's expertise to benefit your agency your unit and all the things we've talked about today been an awesome conversation again I think all the goals that I had have been accomplished through today's conversation so thank you so much for that uh thank you to Mike and Linda Reno for creating this platform for us to to hop onto and have conversations like this that ultimately change people's units in their lives you know for for the better. So with that uh we'll catch you next time thanks for listening to the Hanger Z Podcast. Cheers. Thanks for joining us for this episode of the Hanger Z Podcast. Don't forget to like and subscribe to hear more stories that promote the personnel equipment behind the missions in public safety aviation. Lastly stand by for a message after a word from our sponsors. Cheers. 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