What makes a tactical training legacy last for over 25 years? Part 1 | Ep 370

Welcome to The Hangar Z Podcast, brought to you by Vertical HeliCASTS, in partnership with Valor Plus.
 
In this special two-part series, hosts Jon Gray and Jack Schonely are joined by Clay Lacey of the Texas Department of Public Safety and Harald Brink of the Dutch National Police to explore the 25-plus-year legacy of Jack Schonely’s tactical training. 
 
From individual officer safety to agency-wide operations, Jack’s framework for apprehending fleeing suspects has become a global standard for pilots, tactical flight officers, and K-9 handlers alike.
 
In this episode, the group reflects on the leadership and shared experiences that have shaped law enforcement tactics across the U.S. and Europe. Harald provides a global perspective and previews his upcoming course on locating missing persons, while Clay shares hard-earned insights on the humility required to mentor the next generation. 
 
The conversation also explores what it takes to become an effective instructor, focusing on authenticity over ego. Finally, the group looks ahead to the ECHO 2026 Public Safety Aviation Conference in Philadelphia. If you’re committed to tactical training, instructor development, and the future of public safety aviation, this is an episode you won't want to miss.

Thank you to our sponsors Airbus, CNC Technologies and Precision Aviation Group.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey, welcome to the Hanger Z podcast. I'm your host, John Gray. Back with you for what I think is going to be a really fun conversation. Conversation, it's already started with a surprise. We'll get into that here in a minute. But Jack's got a surprise to share, I'm sure. And we want to talk a lot about what he's going to share, reflect on a lot of what he's done over the course of his career as a professional instructor and now promoting the industry on the Hanger Z podcast. We'll be talking a lot about Echo 2026. It's going to be in Philadelphia. That's upcoming. We're recording this in front of Abscon, but it'll be released just after Abscon's over. We're kind of in the heart of conference season, which I love. You know, that the year's kind of broken up into different sessions. It usually starts with HAI or Verticon now, and we get a chance to see each other. And then we get a break, and we don't get to see each other till August or so, and now it's busy. I guess to start, Jack, do you want to talk about the recent change in your professional life and what that might mean for folks that are listening?

SPEAKER_04 1:08

I've been thinking about this for a long time, and I decided after some careful thought and talking to some trusted people that uh that my days of teaching, my class, apprehending fleeing suspects, are coming to an end. Uh it's been 26 years. I didn't think it would last this long, especially after retirement. I thought I'll get three more years after retirement of where I'm relevant and where people will want to listen to this old guy talk about this topic. I honestly believed that. It didn't happen. It it just I just kept getting calls and calls, and and um, and that's why I kept doing it. And uh, but at the same time, I've realized that I was becoming uh less less on top of of what's going on because you're away from work. Yesterday was 10 years since I retired. I mean, 10 years. Where did it go? It flashed by. So like I did a few years ago with with ALEA and now APSA, I realized that this class is important, the topic's important, and it needs new blood. And thus Clay Lacey. I mean, I I I told them when I when I stepped away from uh APSA, I said, hey, listen, I thanks for everything, but I'm becoming less relevant. This needs a new face and new blood and and a and a new look. And I called Clay first and said, Hey, I'm about to volunteer you uh for to take my place in all this TFO training stuff for for APSA. And he said, Oh my gosh, I'd love to. And I knew he would, and he's great, fantastic, and he he's perfect for it. Then I called him and told him, okay, I'm walking away, I'm giving you a year's notice, and Clay's uh, you know, willing to do it. Well, that was 10 years ago, uh nine years ago, but I kept teaching other places, and then this year I was seriously going, you know, I got to do the same thing completely. And out of the blue, Kyle Schoberg called me from Shots Fired Podcast, and he has a new training group. Him and Mark have a new training group called Shots Fired Training Group, and they were asking permission to create a class similar to mine. I said, Why would you ask me permission? That's ridiculous. This is you could do whatever you want, guys. And they go, well, no, we'd have to ask you first because they've all had the class. And I I was humbled by that. I was beautiful that they did that. And long story short, I've handed the class off to them. Uh after calling somebody else and making sure that that was okay. That's Clay. I called Clay before I agreed and said, Do you want any part of this? Do you want the website? Do you want anything? He goes, No, I'm I'm good. I'm good, but thank you. Well, so I called him back and said, Done. So anyway, the the topic will stay alive, and that's all I care about. That is truly what I care about. I the topic's important, the tactics are important, street survival's important, all this stuff, search techniques. And uh they've assured me that they're gonna do that, and I trust them, and they're great guys. They've picked, they've selected an instructor who's a former canine handler and a TFO and a pilot. And you know, I've he's been in my class. I talked to him, he's confident that he can do something with it. And uh so anyway, part of the agreement was well, I still have some classes scheduled in 2026 uh that I'm that I'm committed to and I'm doing them. But then at the at the end of those commit commitments, I'm done. Usertactics.com goes to Shots Fire Training Group now and effective a few a month ago or so, and uh here we are. So, you know, I have mixed feelings about it, obviously. Uh class has meant a lot to me and my family and my friends and the the people that I have met, some of whom are on this screen, all of you, I have met through instruction. That's just a fact. And I I mean, two nights ago I'm sitting and I get a text, beautiful, long text message from a friend in Australia. Jack, I'm in Los Angeles. I wish you were still here. Oh, he's become a really good friend, Andrew, and he's with uh, you know, I met him through training in Australia. He was the host in um in Melbourne. Great guy. I could tell you stories like that over and over and over. I have dozens of friends that I would have never had if it weren't for this class. That's what I'm gonna miss. I'm gonna miss being around people that I've had friendships with that I would see periodically, like Harold in the Netherlands. I went there multiple times. He came to the US. I mean, that that kind of thing, I'm gonna miss that. But I'm not gonna miss the airports and the hotels and all the nonsense that goes with it. As all of you know, uh, that's the hard part, that's the pain part. But the teaching part and meeting outstanding individuals around the world with a common cause of getting better and being tactical, catching bad guys, man, am I gonna miss that. So that that's kind of it in a nutshell. Uh that's a nutshell for me. I was pretty long, but that's a nutshell for me. You guys know that. Uh that that's pretty pretty much it. I got a few classes in Alabama, got one in Texas, Echo in uh September, and then recently this came up, and I'm I contacted Shots Fire uh podcast training group and we're good to go. My la my very last class is gonna be October 14th at the LAPD Air Crew Course, appropriately. I mean, that's where the class started, that's where it's gonna end. And uh and I I can't wait. I mean, I can't wait for that day, really, in a lot of ways. I'm I'm I'm excited for it. I know I'll have mixed emotions, the day of, that's okay. Same thing at Echo, and this will be the second time that I'm teaching with Clay, it'll be the last time doing this, and and that yeah, that's gonna be tough. But I'm thankful and very, very grateful for all of it. And uh so that's where we're at.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

Yeah, as as we lead in this next question, I'll reflect a little bit on uh my thoughts on that. But I want to go to Harold and Clay briefly in a minute here. Harold, we'll start with you and we'll go to Clay. So as as I talk through this, you guys can gather your thoughts on on what Jack has just talked about. But when you started when you talked about ending your your teaching career, you know, I was I thought about my experience in your class and and what that meant for me, and I, you know, extrapolated that across the world to all the folks you've taught, and I'm like, man, the impact you've had in our professions is huge, you know, not just in the field, but in aviation in particular. So it was really cool that I got a chance to sit through your class. Um when we discussed Echo, uh, you and Clay taught Echo jointly last year, and that was really cool uh being a part of that. Uh, I felt like this would be a good way to kind of lead to the end of your teaching career. So we invited um you and Clay to come back to Echo this year and teach. And at the time we thought that would be the last class. Yeah, you were somehow Harold found out about it, and the goal was to surprise Jack and Clay with the arrival to Echo Philly. We made all these arrangements. Lo and behold, I found out a little a little squirrel, a little mouse leaks some news to Harold, and we figured out that our our surprise spoiled. I heard he's from New York.

SPEAKER_04 9:03

It's possible that he's from New York. It's possible. Yeah, that's what I that's what I heard.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

New York.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

So he spoiled the ID. Okay. Plan two or plan B was for Harold to come on here and surprise Jack and Clay as part of this podcast. And he came on just a few minutes too early as we were having some technical issues uh signing on. So plan B kind of worked, kind of didn't. But on that, Harold, what are your thoughts as it relates to what Jack just talked about, the the teaching career coming to an end and how his class and the class that you all teach has benefited the community?

SPEAKER_02 9:44

I think it's an end of an uh era. Can I say that? Yeah. I met Jack in 2012, I think, oh 12 in Amsterdam. Yeah. We just uh had our new fleet and they invited him and Kevin Means to come over because uh that was the the moment my unit decided to go from uh passive flying to active flying, like not on call, but do patrol like the LAPD does. So fly at least four or six hours a shift per person. Um they invited uh Jack to do his class and Kevin to do his class, and actually, our uh today's SOPs are based on what Jack taught us, so he has a big part in uh in how we work now and how we did it. So yeah, it's a shame to let him go, but I can understand after 26 years that you think hmm, and also your wife thinks, hmm. I can understand it. So um, yeah. The book is still there, so we can still help him with his pension uh buying the book. And yeah, so yeah, the idea was uh to come over to you guys in uh in Philadelphia, and uh actually that worked out, so I will be there, and I will be in the campus because yeah, I think that was your last class, and we had to be there, so I'm coming not alone. We're with two, so surprise uh the surprise will be uh the next uh the other person, and I'm working on the LAPD class, so maybe also in October, some of us will join you in your ultimate last class. So thank you for all you did for the law enforcement community, Jack. Thank you what you did for us. Thank you to be my guide. We text a lot, sometimes on straight uh strain times because the time difference uh I forget it all the time. But but but but I think yeah, yeah, what you did is like yeah, I have no words. It's like I think Clay has the same opinion. It's it's like it's the Bible, you're the master, and uh thank you for all you did for the community and for Ebon Loyfort and Jack.

SPEAKER_04 11:57

Harold. Thank you, Harold. That means a lot to me. That that first meet in uh the Netherlands in 2012. Uh that I have vivid, vivid memories of that particular visit and class. The hospitality was incredible. Uh the the tour of Amsterdam with uh Andy, I think it's Andy. Yeah, with Andy. Yeah, yeah. Unbelievable. Oh my gosh, it was incredible. And screwing with Kevin Means, absolutely amazing. I mean, I that's the one I talked to Kevin when he was on the podcast. I reminded him of this where I was there the first week, and then Kevin was coming the next week, and they took me out to dinner at this very traditional Dutch uh food restaurant in Amsterdam, and we it was wonderful. Yeah, and we get done and they go, Yeah, we're gonna bring Kevin here next week. I go, ooh, that might be a problem. And Harold's like, what? They're all looking at me like, what? I go, he's a vegetarian. They go, what? Kevin, oh geez, he's a vegetarian. So they changed restaurants to find a vegetarian restaurant. And the next week, Kevin shows up and they take him to this other restaurant. They tell him, Yeah, we were gonna take you to this other place. Thankfully, Jack warned us that you're a vegetarian. He went through the roof. He was like, ah, that freaking Jack. And uh the lesson is if there's two instructors, always go first. Always go first, you know. But uh, that was fun. But Harold, thank you for the kind words. You guys, the Dutch have been great to me multiple times in the Netherlands, in Los Angeles, and in other places. Your friendship means a lot to me. Oh, yeah, one of my favorite pictures right there. That's at the LEPD aircrew course with my Ajax football jersey on being held up there. I love that picture. And that was when you guys came over to uh for the aircrew course. Very uh the friendship of the Dutch in general, but especially you, Harold, uh really means a lot to me. Your friendship means a lot. I don't mind that my phone buzzes at four in the morning. Honest to God, I don't. Okay. As long as it's Harold. Be careful what you wish for. And uh so, Harold, thank you. I know.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_04 14:12

Thank you, Jack. Thank you. Thank you, sir, for those kind words.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Thank you. When it comes to the impact of the class, we've talked a lot about the impact it's had on individual people, not about the impact it's had on a national police organization, how they respond to calls for service, and how how what you guys are doing are changing those policies and those tactics on a national level, which is insane to think, right? So kudos to all of you guys for the impact you've had in the community to teach and and uh shape our industry for the better through through those classes. Reflecting a little bit on the surprise and the attempted surprise at the class, and we went all the ways to have fictitious names for the roster, so you wouldn't know that Harold was coming. One of the problems we're gonna have though is one of the fictitious names was from King County, and you were just there, and there's you know, there's not as as many folks there as as uh as some other agencies, so that you probably would have figured out you know somewhat quickly that the name from that agency correct.

SPEAKER_04 15:12

They didn't use Brad Pitt for Harold. But that's the obvious choice.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Before we go to Clay, I just for I know Harold's time limited. Harold is gonna be teaching at Echo in Philadelphia. The the class that that you teach I've never taken, but I've heard a lot of really good stuff about the class you teach. Can you preview that class, Harold, and and give folks a little bit of a sample of what uh you're gonna talk about?

SPEAKER_02 15:37

At Echo, your request was uh talking about missing persons. So it's it's gonna be one hour just me telling you about uh what we do in uh finding missing persons, how we do it in my country, and uh the topic came up because what you see more and more is that there are more and more people missing, like we have four or five calls a day for searching for a missing person uh with or without a cell phone. When they have a cell phone, it makes life a little bit easier. But the trend is also that it's they become younger and younger, even suicidal uh people like children from 14, 15, 16-year-olds. Mainly I think uh social media is the reason that they are suicidal, because in social media they see the ideal picture of how people think they should look like and and all those kind of things. So it's it's it's it's I think it's depressing, and that's the reason. So uh yeah, we search a lot with different uh tactics also on the ground. So I made something to see if uh if I can help uh or we can help, like as a community, uh other units in the search for uh missing children and missing persons. And uh yeah, the majority, as I said, is suicidal because we don't have uh like mountains and hikers get lost, so that's not an issue in my country. And I hope this class is just uh it's more like an open discussion and get new insights from other people and learn from other people how they do it, and maybe combine it and even get a better and faster result, even without like an uh MC catcher or systems like Life Seeker or Automiss on your aircraft. So that's a little bit the idea. So mere an open uh it's more and more an open conversation than me killing you with a PowerPoint with some slides, and and because what I'm telling you is what Clay always said and what Jack always said. It's it's not like what I tell you is the truth, it's just the way we do it, and maybe we can come together to even a better way, faster way, or a nicer way to find those people.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

That's the beauty of the conferences, right? Is that we can all exchange ideas to to better own operations and and uh that's the end goal, right? Is to do that. We talk a lot about uh apprehending playing suspects and the idea of of finding uh the missing people, the good people. Um so it'd be really cool to focus in particular on finding those those people who who we want to find, the the good people. So that'll be great. Uh looking forward to that. Uh Jack, any thoughts real quick as it relates to his class?

SPEAKER_04 18:04

Oh, the information's fantastic. It's really unique too, because most of what I learned about uh missing persons searching for them, that some of the tactics and techniques of the missing person side of things I got from from Harold and Luke. I mean, they have a whole different perspective on it in the EU. And they they both shared information with me over the years. I remember it back many years, that I I had never heard before from anyone in the United States. And I was like, I wonder if that that really, really would work here too. And it does. Uh so the class is going to be wonderful. It's very valuable information. It missing persons, I think Clay, and Clay's still in the business, he's going out on missing persons calls all the time. It's increased here as well. I know it has, I just haven't seen it as much, but I did my share of them on the ground and in the air. So it's a valuable class, valuable topic, and I'm thrilled that Harold's teaching it.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Yeah, missing persons, from my perspective as an aircrew, was always challenging. You know, we're we're flying flat orbits at a low altitude, trying to broadcast over the PA to hopefully get someone's attention that maybe has seen that person. Yeah. And that tactic ultimately for us wasn't as successful as maybe some other things could be. So it'll be great to put our heads together and come up with some solutions that might help us uh more expediently find those people. Yeah. So Clay, you've patiently been waiting in the wings uh to talk about the impact that that Jack's class has had and the importance of of the quality training that y'all provide for the community as a whole, you know, as it relates to conferences and and the APSA safety standos and and just all the opportunities for people to get together and share this knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Yeah, well, this is uh this is I mean, it's a very emotional thing for me to to do this right now with with Jack. I wouldn't be in my chair without him. Um I won't go into all the details of how that is, because you know, everybody says that, right? All the guys leaving, but it's a fact. I was told to quit. I was gonna quit. I was gonna quit pursuing it because everybody that knew everything about it in California said I was an idiot. And uh Jack didn't, he treated me well, and uh that led to a a position with the DPS, and just kind of as a fun fact, I don't know if it'll show up or not, I'm gonna I'm gonna give this a try. Y'all just kind of y'all just kind of bear with me a second. Just to go back to to uh kind of the start of it, for me it was in 2000. And in 2000, when we first it's not popping in, uh went to my first APSA LEA on my own, and and then came back. Uh within a year, we had won the Director's Citation Award with the DPS for our performance. I was going to show you uh an old picture of of Matt Murphy and I, the first two TFOs for Texas DPS back in 2000. So that class had a direct impact not only on outcomes of of operations, but on my personal career. So I start I start there with I wouldn't be here in this opportunity without Jack Shainley. Um the fact that he's leaving is is hugely uh difficult for me to deal with because he's an icon. And I I I I can't even begin to count how many apprehensions and and more important than those, how many guys I think I didn't get shot by having training on that. And uh that's that's an emotional deal. So, you know, when he approached me at at ALEA, I have a little different recollection of that, which was I was very intimidated. I was very I I can't do this, you know. I don't I don't think I can do this. Um I can't fill these shoes. And he, you know, put his trust in me and it it went well and I stole a lot of how to teach from him. And then when again when this when he decided to step away, we had a a good conversation about it and I didn't want anything to do with it 'cause I am not gonna try to get behind him. And that that company uh that he's put his faith in, they better know what they're getting into because they're taking over for an absolute legend. And it's it's it isn't just a plug and play cop course and I knew that. That's why I didn't want any part of it because I can't do it service. So I'm glad it's gonna be there. I hope people take it it is not going to be the same because it isn't going to be Jack Shalen. And that may be the old Fuddy Duddy and me you know saying whatever but when the guy that was in the mix on the ground with dogs and getting shot at and gets in the air and gets guys shot underneath him and all that, when that's the guy teaching the course, it takes it to a whole other level. And uh how impactful that course is is it's interesting a lot of the listeners may not know the ratio and I don't have the numbers but there's a tremendous amount of law enforcement organizations that hire Jack to come teach that do not have an air unit. This this course transcends all parts of law enforcement all the way to Europe. And so anyway I don't want to ramble about it but um it's an emotional thing for me. Again I wouldn't have the job I would have quit I was gonna quit I had a blue suit patrol suit ready when I got back from I think we were in Anaheim the last year and I said this is this is a waste of time and uh and I I didn't after that course and then had about four really good deals in the air I was volunteering my time with DPS then had four good deals and it got traction and it and it got out and and it was all just me applying those concepts. So um again thank you Jack for for everything you've done for me I'm not I'm not excited about you going away from teaching although even though I'm still in the game I feel what you're saying. It's different things are different now technologies are different. The people that we're talking to in these classes are different. Not good or bad just different and uh I don't ever want to be the old Clint Eastwood you know get off my lawn guy uh in the classroom and I I worry about that quite a bit because because of the time in the unit.

SPEAKER_04 24:40

But again thank you for everything personally and professionally I love you uh you're a great friend and thank you Clay I love you too man uh thank you for all that all that you just said that means a lot to me a lot to me having people come up to you you know all the time you've experienced it Harold's experienced John you know what we're talking about here having people come up to you and say wow I really enjoyed that I really got this or I'm gonna take that back and then you become friends with them you know the mentorship just happens and I was happy to do it you know and I got to watch I got to watch Clay evolve you know completely from from the very newest of new guys volunteering to where he is today where he's he's one of the people that everybody wants to go to to get information. I got to see that whole story over the years and in the mix had a friend and a colleague uh somebody I never worked in a patrol car with or in an aircraft with but I feel like I could do it today I'd love to do it and that's why it was so cool to go to Echo and teach with Clay because it was kind of like being in a patrol car together or in a cockpit together. But that that means a lot to me everything you said and you know the the topic will live on it lives on through you too. That's the other thing you know both you know uh both of you Harold too you're you're teaching things where you're drawing from the topic that's that's what is so important to me it's like I don't want this to die because the topic will continue on. As long as there's good guys and bad guys and bad guys run guess what there's this topic is alive. Yes the technology is different some of the terminology might be different the students are different. All that's all true you're you're exactly right but we still gotta have a human that makes some tactical decisions to catch these these bad people these evil some of them absolutely evil people that we have all put in jail and the public has no freaking clue about how many of those are sitting in prisons as we speak not doing evil things to children and to other innocent people because of some tactics and um so that means a lot to me Clay and I I can't can I thank you enough for the support over the years the the kind words constantly oh my gosh you've you're over the top over the years and complimenting me and it meant the world to me. Some of it I don't think I deserved at all but it meant the world to me that you thought so that's all that matters to me is that you thought so and John thought so and Harold thought so that means so much to me. So Clay, thank you. You're you're you're carrying on so well man I I'm so proud of you. I I am so proud of you and what you did. Thank God you didn't quit man would that have been a loss or what and it's funny Clay in the past week and I won't name who it is or agency but a young man came up and I John knows and said the the hanger Z is responsible for me staying with it. And I'm like tell me more and he said this job's hard like you guys say all the time I was really struggling I mean where I went that's it I'm done I'm just gonna I'm just gonna step out of this and uh let somebody else try it because I'm not gonna get it and he said then I'm listening to podcasts and many of them included you Clay I guarantee you when we're talking about the TFO position and he said I realized I'm not alone this is a hard job this is not one that comes naturally to 99.9% of people so I'm gonna stay with it and he he just made pilot I mean this is incredible. So that's why it's important to keep alive and keep talking about this stuff it keeps keeps people going and you kept going and I man thank goodness you kept going because you ended up being one of the ace of the base man and and you didn't think so you were ready to walk that's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

You know the other side of that Jack is I had a very good vehicle with Texas DPS you know I can't you know thank that organization enough for providing the opportunity. Continuing I'm on nights right now we're gonna go fly we're gonna go we're gonna go fly four to six hours tonight in the Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex and so I had that vehicle but again you are are the godfather of this stuff and to the young men and women that are listening um I know this gets a little repetitive and a little old and the technology has changed and stuff but this stuff this content will save people's lives and it it it'll keep a cop from getting shot and if that just happens once in your career it's worth it. So I always use the buffet model take what you like from all four of us sitting here right take what you like leave the rest but there's some nuggets in there that will serve you well to the end of your career. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

And one of the things you say Clay that I love is it's not the way it's a way and like you said take take what you like and leave what you don't I think that's a uh really important thing to say I I think that came that was echoed in the in the feedback from last year's conference at Echo which I just realized is a bit of a pun that I just threw down there.

SPEAKER_04 30:22

Echoed from Echo.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

But people talking about how humble you guys were when it comes to that and that's part of that right it's yeah understanding that what you're saying you're not standing in front of people professing that you know it all you're standing in front of people saying this is what I found to have worked based on the conversation my experience and everything else.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

All your negative experiences you can learn from so I won't get into the who's and the what's but where I got that from was the California organizations that were leading in training saying these things and learning well wait a minute that works in your city but not with two OH 58s out in a sheriff's office in Alabama. And who the hell are you to say that? Who the hell are you to say that they have to do it this way when they don't have the resources and so that hit me real hard with those guys Jack Jack stuff it doesn't matter if you're in a 500 a Crown Victoria or an APC it applies and so it's one of those things that you learn from your negative experiences as well I went to to the Netherlands with Harold I learned so much from them. Oh my God I can I can I continue to do that.

SPEAKER_04 31:29

Look at Harold acting like we didn't walk away with stuff Harold that's bullshit I've been there I've been there just like Clay in the same role instructing and I walked away with so much that I use to this day I I repeat stories from the Netherlands because it was so valuable.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

So don't shake your head uh Harold Clay and I we know we learned a lot from you it's about Glenn he he did some things to they took things away from him in the Netherlands when he arrived after 10 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Yeah his money his credited cards welcome to the Netherlands oh my credit card was skimmed at Skipple airport within eight minutes of being on the ground oh jeez that's funny so so he he took something away yeah Harold I know you you've got some time limitations any any thoughts before you head out just so I know that we can fit those thoughts in before before it's time.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

Yeah just just giving Jack something else the the teaching part uh actually Jack what Clay said is is you started it I think it was in uh 2017 in Doncaster in the UK when we had to move to the to the hotel and you said you can do it and there was there were only two people in my audience it was Jack and it was Glenn Daly that's how so so actually you you you made me do it like you I think you did the also claim uh started teaching because of you I think we had some uh nice things like uh Ober Schleisheim in Germany when we went to the Dachau concentration camp yes I've that that morning is another vivid memory Harold you and I at Dachau I mean I'll never forget that also uh me riding me sitting on Charlie Beck's motorcycle oh that was a good one too that was also something yeah that was a good one so and and yeah and and about the tactics what the what Clay says I I I yeah I only can can say the tactics they evolve as uh as the techniques evolve but but still the basics are still they run away because they won't they would they they they don't want to be caught and that stays the same and maybe they are faster or they use other things like uh when you write wrote started writing the book there there wasn't an Uber now there's Uber so but but it's still a taxi so it's still it still applies to what they do today.

SPEAKER_04 33:58

Yeah you all know Nick Minx he's he's like an excel guy and he has uh he has a nice excel sheet about the average distance and the time they take when they go away and it stays it it stays the same uh the cars get faster uh our helicopters get slower but in the end we arrest them and it always ends with a crash or if it's a pursuit like a crash or a bailout so that will never change so thank you jack for teaching us that and yeah you you wrote it you write it in the book and and yeah that's all I can say thank you for all you did thank you Harold thank you for everything you've done for me too you've had faith in me to to share valuable information for your colleagues and uh you pushed that and I appreciated that so much it it it expanded my world you know being a visitor in uh in the Netherlands and other parts of Europe through Pavcon uh and I appreciate that so much uh but I really appreciate your friendship more than all of it so just so you know.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

Likewise likewise yeah love you Harold you're a good man love you too and I I I hope we can still I can still text you when I have some issues even when you're really retired. Always always otherwise otherwise I'm gonna arrest Clay.

SPEAKER_04 35:10

You can text anytime we can talk about penalty kicks we can talk about whatever you want.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

Yeah oh yeah maybe yeah we're looking for a new coach so maybe now you're retired.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Yeah I got I got some time on my hands yeah but we could use a good one in technique so maybe oh my as we talk about you know put pursuits vehicle pursuits those incidents are going down across the board in the US and internationally because of policies procedures and and all kinds of other issues relating to that so I think now more than ever it's important to to learn the lessons that are taught through classes like Clay and Jack's so that they're not being learned in in the the actual pursuit that you're involved in or the foot pursuit you're involved in is as Clay said averting the the loss of life of an officer an officer or a citizen through a fatal encounter because of the tactics that are taught and learned in these classes gosh it it's so important. So I think now more than ever it's it's it's it's growing in importance. The last point I'll I'll kind of touch on before we go into more of the nuts and bolts of what Echo is going to be is just encouraging folks who may be on the on the the fence as far as wanting to teach. Hope it's not anytime soon for you but for those for those folks who may be on the sidelines thinking hey I I want to teach but I'm like you clay uklay you mentioned he thought I'm not ready to do that. I don't know that you're ever ready to to stand in front of an audience and and talk about the expertise that you've gained over the course of your career but give some advice to those folks uh who have the knowledge set and the ability to speak but are a bit nervous. We'll start with with UK and then go to Harold and Jack.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

I think it's extremely important to have the right motivation for sharing information and that it's not ego driven. Jack was never up there beating his chest and I'm an LAPD command pilot work through the riots there never was any of that. And so I encourage those who are considering it embrace the delivery of information of providing tactical insight to keep them safe and catch the bad guys and if you're passionate about that you can be successful as a teacher but I see a lot of instructors that were thrust into it that aren't passionate about the topic or it becomes more about them than about the subject material and that's where I think things can go wrong. The best classes I ever host I have very little involvement in them the the class is engaged they're engaged with one another you kind of become a facilitator in in the sharing of that information. So um make sure you want to do that and then practice get up and teach in front of your family teach in front of your you know your the best ones to do are your teammates at work because they're not going to pull any punches. Yeah that's right yeah get get get up and share information attend classes taught by good instructors and steal their methods steal the way that I'm an abundance mindset guy. I share everything I have I don't I think there's enough for everybody. I'm not threatened at all that a private company is going to go teach Jack's course and I'm gonna lose a client or I don't I don't do that. And so I'd consider you know for those new teachers to practice it out and and take the good stuff from those that are out there and and try to deliver it in a way that a volunteer TFO flying an OH-58 one night a month can do something with it and an LAPD command pilot can do something with it and an organization in Europe can do something with it and I think you won't go wrong.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Yeah I think the mindset you talk about is critical to consider if we're all doing it for the right reasons a rising tide lifts off ships right we should be iron sharpening iron you know and we should be wanting to to encourage each other to to do better and to to lose the ego to accept that that uh advice when people have it for you right so I think it's it's critical what you what you said about you know in in a in a briefing giving a 15 minute presentation on something and then asking for feedback and being okay with that feedback. You know it asking for feedback and being okay with it's two different things. You know yeah so being okay with that feedback's huge. Harold from your perspective talk about the advice you might have for someone on the sidelines as far as uh wanting to get into how do you get into this and be good at it.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

Let me use my bionic eyes because I wrote something down I think the most important is um what Clay said attend classes from other teachers in the same area the same topic because you can learn from them all and and it's it's like I think Clay did it I did it it's like take what you want and take what you like and you can give it your own method or the way you're telling it but attend those classes and and I I won't call it steal it but use them and first text them before they use it because I think Clay has a right to know that I'm using something from his class the same with Jack that I'm losing using his book with the basics and I think the most important thing is be passionate about what you do. So when you teach from your inside it's it's you're telling the truth it's it's like tell from your own experience tell it vividly instead of uh killing somebody by PowerPoint and it it and and and and what clear what Clay also says uh practice practice a lot practice inside of of especially your colleagues and your unit because what you see at it in classes with all different people uh different people who you don't know they make you listen uh your own unit mates so he's talking again about so they won't listen they're more critical than they have more crit criticism than the people uh attending classes who don't know you uh listen and what is it um also accept uh feedback uh good feedback and and and not so good feedback and then see what you can do with it I like uh Clay's method of of of teaching very much because he walks around through class he's open for conversation so what I try to do is for me a a class is successful when uh I have like a one hour of material and I only have uh I only did in one hour the half of my slides because the conversation is going on in my class I like the conversation instead of uh in a break they come to the teacher and they tell very interesting stories but everybody has the right to know and can learn from those stories so that's that's that's what I like from Jack that's what I like from Clay so that's what I do. If they start a conversation in the training I love those things and and and see what happens there because then you get to a point why we're there. So it's just the teaching part is just lighting the fire and and and see what happens and I think that's that's what what what what the people in the class keep in their minds so that what the the custom this was a discussion about that topic and we talked about that so maybe that's so so I think it's it stays better. I still find it scary in in front of a class it's it's still different people different opinions and I had to learn that not everybody is in the class with the same ID or the same motivation so uh concentrate on the people who are really sucking up the material instead of people watching the cell phones or uh doing other stuff. They are there they will be there always but that's not the the people uh who are there voluntarily yeah so that that's that's that's what I something wrote down. So but the most important is be passionate about what you teach and and and know what you what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

I I think back to the my start in in law enforcement that's back when newspapers were still a thing. Remember being in in mandatory training and the senior guys would be in the back of the class with a newspaper up over the face not even paying attention to anything that's going on and not even trying to hide it.

SPEAKER_04 43:32

You know so I know that Jack and Clay you've seen that in your from newspapers to phones but that I was teaching when there was newspapers too and I I can I can tell you where those places were I'm not kidding you. After hundreds and hundreds of classes I can tell you certain places where the newspapers were and it and Harold's right you can't let that deter you or bug you that is my biggest As an instructor, I let it get to me. And it it because it just irritates me. And it irritates me more that a supervisor doesn't come up to them and say, hey, you can leave now if you want. But you know, we'll be deducting some some time off your book or whatever. You're in a class, you pay attention. You know, that bugs me too. But uh yeah, the newspaper thing. I the cell phone maybe is is worse. It's it's not as obvious, but it's worse.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Yeah. Yeah, it it's interesting how that's changed, and it is tough. Like you said, some folks are voluntary to go and they have no interest in being there.

SPEAKER_04 44:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

So, you know, some of it's a a a disrespect, a shot at their supervisor, if anything, because they don't want to be there, you know, so they're gonna they're gonna show their supervisor, which you know isn't right by all means, but it happens, you know. One thing that Harold touched on that I think is important uh comes with the organic side of teaching. I love going to classes like Jack and Clay's and Harold Sr.'s, where the organic conversation is almost as fruitful as the the part of the conversation that or the instruction that's being taught. I think of Nick Minks and his discussion about being a carrier pigeon. He talks about going to an organization, teaching there, and taking some of the things he's learned because of that organic conversation and kind of disseminating that across his other classes. So I think part of the beauty of your guys' exposure to the industry as a whole is not exactly what you're teaching, but it's what you're gathering and what you're sharing as a result of those lessons learned. And that's one thing that's been cool for the podcast, right, Jack? It's we're taking those those conversations that we've had, taking little nuggets and kind of placing those in other conversations where it seems to fit. So we've learned a lot. Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 45:46

Oh my gosh, I can't believe the amount of stuff we talk about it all the time, the amount of stuff that we have taken away from our guests and learned about an industry we were both a part of for many years. And it's like, wow. I mean, we get wowed all the time, and it's it's really exciting. I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

For sure. So I appreciate you guys spending time to talk about the impact that Jack has had in his class. Uh, your class we missed, it is the one class that I'll say was applicable to anybody in any department, any rank, in any position. You could be a chief sitting behind a desk and might find your way into a perimeter at some point for some reason. And had you taken Jack's class, you could reach back, use that information to help you in that perimeter.

SPEAKER_04 46:32

Not too many chiefs attend classes, but there are some. Chief Ed Delmore, who we had on the podcast, every time I have taught for his department, he has sat in on that class every minute. And I've told him many times how much respect I have because getting a sergeant and above of an LAPD to sit through an eight-hour class on tactics was like pulling teeth. I can think of a few. And I went up to them and thanked them personally. Said, hey, deputy chief, I really appreciate that you were here today and you stayed for the whole class. Oh my gosh. You know, like you said, John, the deputy chief's gonna show up to the Oscar Down command post and they're gonna be in charge of that thing. And most of them don't have a clue what to do. And the smart ones will defer to the TFO, the canine handler, the SWAT operator, you know, but the the arrogant ones will say, Oh, I can run this. They don't know what they're doing. But if they go to a class, maybe they pick something up. I mean, uh, you know, so that that's really valuable. Like you said, it's valuable.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

It was the beauty of your class and Clay's class is that this the stuff that you learn, you could be a first-year patrol officer. You learn that stuff, and the power of the debriefs that you talk about for me is something that's stuck with me forever. Still, I can I can I can when you go through those debriefs, I I can almost remember each one.

SPEAKER_04 47:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

And the power that it has. So I think, you know, again, going back to you know, year one, you take that class, and now year 23, you find yourself in an admin position in the agground perimeter, and you can reach back and pull pieces out of that class that you taught for the benefit of what's happening currently. So love, love that in that course for that reason. Um, let's shift gears a little bit and talk about Echo and what you guys accomplished last year by teaching together. So, Clay, we'll start with you. Talk about some of the goals you guys had in teaching together and and maybe what some of the unintended consequences were. Maybe not consequences, but benefits of of that uh co-teaching.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

Well, I think it was it for me, it was super like natural. You know, Jack and I didn't even really cut up how we were gonna do a lot of it. And I enjoyed that part of it, and it was it was so refreshing to have him back me up with a maybe similar but a little different perspective on uh on the same topic. And yeah, I you know um I think the students really got a lot of bang for their buck, and that's not tootin' my horn at all. But to have Jack, I think, brought out the best in me. Uh that was the best class I probably ever taught because I think number one, your friggin' mentor idol is standing next to you in the class. That was a big deal, man. I mean, that was I that was not easy for me to do, and then you know, you're you're you're able to work off of one another. The only things we were careful about, and we both, I think it's the mutual respect, we didn't want to stand on each other. So we wanted to make sure we got in and out because the format was sort of one person in the lead one day, the other one backing them up, and then those roles switch. And I think we did a good job with that. I was worried about that. I I I didn't want to interject too much when I was in the support role. So I'd wait for Jack to open a door and and and then try to do that. And so I I really enjoyed it. He brought out the best in me. It's a uh it's a box check, a bucket list career box item, you know. Uh again, I wish I could show you the little 21-year-old Clay in a navy blue flight suit, uh, that the picture I was wanted to show of how that's come. So uh I think Echo's done a good job, not just not because of us, just having the idea. The other thing about that class I really liked was the actual physical layout of the room. The room was set up, as I recall, with large round tables. Yeah. And I think there were eight to ten, maybe, or six to eight that could sit at a table. So a lot of the agencies grouped up, but a lot of them didn't. There weren't a lot of agencies there that sent ten people. So they're sitting with other people and they're looking at each other, and during a lot of the downtime, uh, there was conversation. They could spin around and face us, they could face one another, and then there was a there was a communal lunch where we we we ate there and everyone was there together. I've never experienced that. I thought that was a great thing.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Again, I wrote something down. Uh I hope you will keep on doing the Henger Z uh hosting podcast uh hosting project. Because if if we're also gonna lose you there, uh that's not good. Not for us, not for nobody in the community. Thank you, John.

SPEAKER_04 51:28

Swans John doesn't fire me.

SPEAKER_02 51:30

No, he doesn't. He doesn't. Um I keep on texting you, and if you don't answer, I keep on texting Clay. Thank you for all you did. Not only for the airborne law enforcement community, but for the entire law enforcement community in the world. And uh I hope to see you all in uh Philadelphia.

SPEAKER_04 51:50

Can't wait. Can't wait. We'll see you in Philly, Harold. Thanks for all the kind words. Love you, brother. See you.

SPEAKER_00 51:55

Bye-bye, guys. Bye. Yeah, see you, Harold.

SPEAKER_04 51:59

I going back to the the echo experience, well, I ditto. I mean, everything Clay just said, I felt the exact same way. However, one thing that was different is I was not worried about it. I mean, I didn't think, oh, I hope, man, I hope this could I knew it was gonna go fine. I knew it. And it went 10 times better than I expected. And I my expectation was really positive. It really was. And then the feedback, Clay and I both talked about that. I mean, we talked about it openly at the end of the class, as I recall, Clay, thanking the group and saying, you guys made this extra special because people really were asking good questions and getting involved and giving their examples. And Clay and I both seen the classes where you don't get you don't get any of that. And but yet the the critiques are like outstanding, but yet nobody stepped up and raised their hand. That did not happen. In our two days, the interaction with that class was phenomenal. And it goes back to Echo exactly what Clay said. It was the tables. I swear it was. It was the way it was set up with the tables, the lunch, everything Clay mentioned. We and we told Echo that, by the way. We told John and and others that hey, that was gold. It helped us as instructors. But I was excited about that opportunity because I I know, you know, that obviously everybody knows how I feel about Clay and we feel about each other. And that was an opportunity that I was not going to miss. And John, I think that was your idea, as a matter of fact. I I don't think Clay and I can take credit for that idea. We just said, yeah. Uh, but John, you you, as I recall, proposed that. And I mean, it you didn't finish your sentence. And I said, Yep. Just like invite me to join the podcast. Would you like to be a ho? Okay, yes. You know, it was the same thing. So great, great idea, John. And and John knows Clay and I good enough that he knew it would work. He did. He he knew it would work, and uh, and it did, and I'm thankful that we got to do that. I can't wait to do it again in Philly. It it turned out really good. Like Clay mentioned, the the perspective, just slightly different perspectives. People need to hear that. People need to hear different perspectives. I have told recruits this, I have told experienced officers this, tactics is not black and white. Everything about tactics is gray. There is no right or wrong. Now, there are certain rules within tactics that you shall that are shall not break, but most tactics is you just apply it to your agency, your situation. I can't say this is how you do it. So the fact that Clay and I do have a SoCal Texas perspectives on different things, I think who wins there? The students win. They win. Because live, they got to hear slightly different perspectives. Clay and I don't agree a hundred percent on everything. And I think, and I've always told students that's wonderful. We we would have recruits, it would drive me crazy in critique saying building search uh critiquing the building search um cadre. And they'd say, Well, it was really good and blah, blah, blah. But Jack said one thing about the corner, and Clay said another, and John said this, and and they need to get it together, you know, and you know, this is ridiculous. And I'd get I'd hear those critiques, and I'd say, I'd go to to students themselves and say, You're crazy. All right. You should be thanking the three of us for giving you three perspectives or five on a corner. You should be thanking us. You know, that's what tactis is about. Now you get to pick. And and guess what? If you pick Clay's technique over mine, I'm not, oh darned, Clay got that technique. I didn't I'm like, yeah, baby. That's that's what it's about. You apply what works for you because outside of training and outside of the academy, especially, and you get out of field training, who gets to make the decision on how to make that corner? You. And that's exactly what I would say to them. I said, you need to get your attitude right about training and understand that if you hear 20 different ways, you should be going, oh, thank you. Thank you. Someday you get to choose which of the 20 you're going to use. And then I would share with them that, you know, on a big city department, big, I mean, LA, during my 12 months probation, you know how many training officers I had in 12 months? About 25 plus. I mean, at minimum 24. But then you'd work with other training officers, two each month. Guess what? Every one of them was different. Their personality was different, their tactics were different, their priorities were different. You had one that loved doing uh DUIs, you had one that hated DUIs. I was thankful for that. I got to see it all, and then I got to pick that's the officer I want to emulate, or that's the technique I'm going to use. So uh that's why I thought it was so valuable at Echo, and that's why I we I can't wait to do it again. Um, it's it'll be good.

SPEAKER_01 57:34

Your guys' presentations are are similar but different. You know, they are. As Clay said, your presentation applies to the cannon officer, the patrol officer, the TFO, the TFO with no camera, the TFO with binoculars, the key, the TFO with an amazing camera. And Kyle, yours is the same way. You know, I feel like your guys' uh presentations are just kind of universally applicable.

SPEAKER_00 57:55

Well, and and circling back a little bit, we were kind of laughing about the chief stuff. Yeah, they're the ones that need to be in there. Oh my god. And in the ones that have, and I'll give kudos to a personal friend of mine, Steve Dye at the Allen Police Department, came from Grand Prairie. I worked with him in Garland. He is he has codified this chase to contain concept into their general manual where this is what we are going to do. This is how we are going to contain suspects. This is what a search team will consist of. And then he vows to provide the the resources to meet all of that. And guess who we have the highest apprehension rates with? Any city in the metro are those cities. Yeah. Are those cities? And, you know, but again, I think the the the leadership could really do a lot in this versus, you know, I've been through FBI Lita, we've all done all the leadership stuff. That's great stuff. But at the end of the day, the the the chain of command, all the way up to the chief, you know, needs to really be in tune with how patrol is uh managing these incidents and support them in that endeavor. Yeah. I wish more of them were in there. Me too.

SPEAKER_04 59:08

I I you know, I don't pretty soon I'm not gonna have to worry about it anymore, but it has bothered me for 26 years. It really has. And some the departments that that heard me say it in my opening email to them saying, hey, this is for this class is designed for the following things, including command staff, and in some cases, especially command staff, the ones that that sent their command staff, lieutenants and above, they they were the ones that I would looked at and went, wow. I mean, I've had I've had chiefs write me emails and say, hey Jack, I just thought you, or Texas especially, hey Jack, guess where I am? I'm sitting on a corner of a perimeter. And I'm like, yeah. I said, which corner you got? He goes, I I went diagonal uh from the foot pursuit, and guess what? Oh, they're taking them into custody right now inside our perimeter. I'm like, kudos to you, chief. I mean, you're setting an example to your troops, and you're sitting on the perimeter and you knew what to do because I was I was just there and you attended the class. Matter of fact, that particular chief in Conyers, Georgia, uh, he attended, I was there for multiple days. He was in every class all day. I admired that so much. I mean, he's a wonderful man. And uh, you know, it benefits because you're gonna be out there too, especially on smaller departments. But I could give you examples from LA. I remember Bratton coming up, Chief Bratton on a New Year's Eve coming to a perimeter and saying he was right at the corner of his perimeter with a man with a gun. And there were officers there, and he pulled up there and said, I want the command post to move from the block away to up here. And a good sergeant said, No, sir, you're in the kill zone. You need to come a block east here and join us at the command post. And he did. You know, he doesn't know. When's the last time he set a perimeter? Maybe never. I mean, really, honestly, because he came from a culture where it didn't set perimeters, but he didn't know. He just saw, well, the perimeter's right here. Well, yeah, the bad guy might be in that bush right there with a gun, and now you're vulnerable. And if you had tactics 101, you know why the sergeant set the containment, the perimeter uh command post a block away down there. That's a great example.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:27

They they just you don't know what you don't know, you know, and uh he didn't one one night Steve die at Grand Prairie. It's it's late, it's midnight, manhunt. He's on his way home from a city function. Um and all you hear, and it's not his unit number, but they were given out the stationary perimeter locations assignments. And he just keys up, everybody knows who it is. And it's it's you know, unit one, I'm gonna be at first in Broadway. And that's the only thing he said during this entire hour-long event. The patrol lieutenant was running the search with us as the air crew. Canine was on the ground, the guy got in custody, and you heard him say, Unit one, I'm clear, I'm so proud of you guys. Stay safe. And he goes, he goes home. And it's the chief of police, you know. And what is that, what does that say to the late night folks, you know, out there, the canine team. There was no, you know, here's what you guys need to be doing. And and he admitted, he goes, they know more about going and hunting men than I do at this point. I'm I'm up in administration. So I really love leadership like that. I think that's that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:30

And they're out there, they're out there, but they're becoming fewer and far between. And it's a shame because they have opportunities to attend classes, to read articles. I say this all the time on articles that I've written in the past where I'm being critical of supervision and some safety decision making, whatever it is. And I always say the people that really need to read this article never will. They because they know everything. They they don't need what do they need to hear from Jack about? You know, who's this guy? Well, maybe you should read and find out, you know, and and in some cases they would have read and gone, hey, I think he's talking about me, because I was. You know, I mean, the weak leaders, they don't strive to learn more. You know, the good ones strive to learn more. They read all the articles, they watch the the podcast, they they uh go to the classes, and then eventually in the field, it hits the fan and they're in charge and they're like, I got this. I got this, or I got this corner, even better. I got this corner. This is mine. There are no two corners like it. This one's mine, you know, and I'm gonna do my best here and remember the things I've learned about what I should be looking for and listening for, and and trust the subject matter experts. TFO, canine, SWAT, patrol people. They're the experts on this. The job, my job is to sit at this corner and keep this bad guy from getting out. You know, I I love that.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:05

Well, I'll wrap up the conversation surrounding Echo and this particular topic for now and kind of transit transition the conversation of some headwinds and some other topics that we've kind of discussed offline. But before I close this out entirely, I just want to encourage you to intend this class. Uh, Philadelphia, the Echo Conference is great. You know, it's an opportunity for us to come together as a public safety aviation community, not just the law enforcement aviation community, to learn from each other. You know, I've I've learned so much from the different segments, the hymns segment in particular, in ways that I never thought would apply. You know, and it's really cool to see the different segments come together and take the good and the bad from each and learn. Uh so highly encourage you to attend this year, not just to take Clay and Jack's class. There's gonna be uh two other days of instruction uh that will follow their class uh with some great topics, including uh a class that I'm gonna lead on internal and external marketing of your unit, which will be cool. And Jack will probably tap you in to help me there. We're doing a little bit of that at uh AppsCon, so that'll be cool. Yeah, look forward to seeing y'all there and looking forward to sitting in your class. The last point on that is you know, touch in the organic side of the conversation in your guys' class in particular, and in particular to Echo for the folks that are coming, uh take an opportunity to listen to Clay's podcast and he's been on as a part of the Hanger Z, read Jack's book and come armed to the class with some questions you may have, you know, for organic conversation. You know, that preparation that you bring into that class, I think, will will be critical. That's right. And you know they're very good. Any other thoughts on those, on those topics before you move on?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:43

Yeah, I'll I'll just add, let's go Burks County, Pennsylvania. You know, uh that's my home county. Philly's right down the road. I'm gonna be calling a couple people there and saying, hey, put a you know, put a bug in your canine people's ear, particularly. But you know, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland. You're right there. New York's not far. Get down there. It's worth your while. As a patrol officer, a canine handler, and an air crew member, those three things particularly. But we we've been talking about it, so we might as well add it. Hey, uh, Lieutenant Sergeant Center Bove, come on down. You know, we're that this is valuable stuff, you know, and you're getting two passionate people that will share everything we got with you. And you can ask us anything. Anything. There we clay and I don't stand there and go, well, I'll have to get back to you on that. You know, no, you're gonna hear two direct answers to any question. And if it takes an hour for us to to address it, we will. The class is not, it's set up in a way that, yeah, we have slides, but we don't care if we do one slide or 60 slides. We want to interact. And last year, that's what happened. And oh man, it was wonderful. I loved those two days.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:00

Yeah, I'd like to just reiterate what Jack said about if you're an air unit crew member and you're you're signed up, you're coming to Echo and and you're excited about that. If you really want all of this to improve at your organization, figure out a way to bring a couple of the canine guys. Figure out a way to bring a couple of patrol leaders, FTOs, something. Figure out a way. If I need to give you a lesson plan, an instructor bio and all that, so you can submit it for your state agency credit, I'd be happy to do that. But when you get those other our other partners in the room and those discussions happen and we start getting on the same page, you're gonna start putting a lot of bad guys in jail. Yep. And so I just encourage those units, if you're coming, this is not just an air crew topic. It's just not. And I think, you know, I think it was Louisville that brought uh a pretty big group of their team outside of air and then and then had me come back up and do some more. And I'm getting texts every day from Brent up there that, man, we we had an apprehension this way, this happened, that kind of thing. So if you're listening and you're coming, bring your people. And if uh if you're not in an air crew and you just listen to this podcast or whatever else, if you're in patrol doing street operations, I I think you can get something out of this that may save your life one day, but it but certainly make you more effective.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:29

There's nothing better. I mean, as cops, there's nothing better than the reward of capturing a bad guy that's really trying to avoid capture. There's nothing, not a better feeling in the world. A couple of years ago, now I was talking to John and we were talking on the phone, and Tracy and I were in the RV, and John will remember this. We were in Northern California, driving back into Oregon, and I said, Hey, John, I'm passing Pelican Bay. Pelican Bay is the most badass prison in California. It's where all the bad, the most evil people end up. And I said, I am proud to have put as many people in there. And it just made me our heart warm, you know. Oh, I mean, from even in the 80s, there were probably some people still in there too, uh, from those arrests in the 80s. There's just nothing more rewarding, but it doesn't do it itself. You've got to get things right. You've got to be tactically right, you got to be able to communicate, coordinate, and that's what Clay and I are sharing. And we share our mistakes. That's the one thing that both of us do very consistently. We will talk about our mistakes all day long, every day and twice on Sunday, because we learn from those. And now we want others to learn from our mistakes so they don't make them. Because let's face it, Clay will say that I'll just speak for me, but Clay says the same thing. Some of the most stupid mistakes you'll ever hear in your life are things that I've done and I share them. And I'm not, and I don't worry about that, because I just know we're human, we all make them, and I've learned more from those mistakes than any success I ever had. So, with that said, uh, this is a great opportunity for people to come to Philadelphia and come here, two passionate instructors on a topic that means something. It means a lot to us, it means a lot to every hardworking street cop, air crew member, canine handler, SWAT operator, and command staff. Come and see us. You will not be disappointed. We will do our best for you. I can I can su assure you that.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:30

Yep. Yep. On that, just go to I think it's echoflightcrew.org and uh find the registration for uh Echo Philadelphia and uh look forward to seeing you there. On the remaining 20 or so minutes we've got uh talked about some stuff offline that I think is is interesting as it relates to headwinds and in and I guess current industry trends, the flow of residents fleeing the state of California is not slowing down anytime soon. You know, unfortunately the the political and and financial environment in California is is just making it very difficult for for people to work and live in. So a lot of officers are are leaving their agencies early and moving to two two states in particular, uh, but I know that there's there's plenty. Uh the two states that that come to mind are Florida and Texas. So I I asked Clay, I said, you know, in your experience when you have these folks coming to agencies in Texas out of California, what's your experience been? So I'll I'll ask that question again, Clay. I'll ask you, you know, what's your experience been with those officers that are that are leaving? What considerations should they put into place if they're considering leaving California and coming to work for an agency in Texas? And and I guess what advice would you have for those folks?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:45

Yeah, it's a it's a it's a big thing here. And we just onboarded a local PD TFO, task force TFO, that came from California. We already have one from another local police department that came from California. And I'll preface this by saying I'm a native Texan, born and raised here in Dallas, but over history, California has just absolutely led the way in so much in law enforcement. I mean, SWAT was born there, canine as we know it now was born there. There's so much good that comes from there. But again, and the and the the the thread in this, in my opinion, is the leadership of the organization you go to. So if you come to Texas, it's not California, and uh delivery of your ideas is important, right? Because you have a lot of Texas cops that actually may be doing things goofy. Um, but your delivery of how you suggest that changes needs to be careful because you end up offending, and you hear this if you if you don't like what we're doing so much, take your ass back to California. And leadership can put that to bed by bringing and unifying people together, but when they neglect it, you get I've I've seen it, absolutely divided squadrooms. There is a shift briefing with five California laterals over here and five Texas guys, and they don't talk to each other. And so I just say, and I think Jack will back me up on this, and John, y'all are out in the industry enough. The grass is always greener, right? I go to a lot of agencies to train, and they're like, we're so screwed up, we mess this up, we mess this up. Everyone does. And Jack and John and I, and Harold, we're all in a position to go out like Nick Meeks' carrier pigeon model and see this isn't just unique to you. Everyone is struggling with these things. So when you come from another state to Texas, at least, it's different. I've had the California officers say, I had more latitude in California as a police officer than I do here. We, you know, I may have this wrong, but if someone's on parole, we can search them at any given time on the side of the road, you know, all that kind of stuff. And it's just different here. And you're also dealing with Texas is Texas in terms of the way citizens view government. We are not government dependent. And and and so you got to be careful as a bureaucrat or a uh of the government on how you approach things. When the space shuttle blew up over East Texas, I'll never forget all the Texas peace officers were going up to someone's door knocking, saying, Sir, we believe that you might have some shuttle debris in the backyard. Can you take us back there and we can look around? Versus some federal folks from up north just went out on these people's property. That does not go over well in Texas. I would just say research the department. Um, I've had people come here and say, I didn't know they weren't civil service. You need to look at that before you start. Like get the background, come visit, talk to the officers that are here. And and also finally I'll close with this. Just understand that policing is changed. And if you're looking, like I want to look for what we did 25 years ago and how we did it, it's it's gone. Like that's not the way it's done. So you're either going to embrace the technology and the tactics to stay out of a civil suit and out of federal prison, or you're gonna be real frustrated with everywhere you go. And that's why I like the chase to contain model where we're not actually chasing to put our hands on people, we're chasing to control them, get them laid up so we go arrest them on our terms. It's a better YouTube video with an arrest team, a dog, and a shield than it is with a one-on-one fist fight, gun grab, shoot the bad guy in between the houses, right? So I would just say to the outside agencies, research your department, and then bring your ideas, but figure out how you can deliver them in a way that's not going to be as offensive to who you're walking in and talking to. Jack and I have to do this in the classroom every time. I try to put my hat in hand, have some humility. This is a way to consider. I'm not saying it's the only way to do it. There's pros and cons, but a lot of people come in very passionate about their tactics. Jack's example on pieing corners in a threshold is a wonderful example of, or a dynamic entry, who's you know, digging corners, who's not. But but as long as the delivery is, hey, I'm gonna give you this information, take what you like out of it, you'll do better. And and that's where I see a lot of the California. One of the California guys came here last year and called us to teach us how to work vehicle pursuits from the air. Uh, and that's what he said. He said, Man, I've got more experience with it than y'all do. I came from California. Here's what you guys need to be doing. A lot of what he said was great stuff. Uh, but the delivery wasn't good. So that's what I'd be careful that's what I'd be careful about. I agree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:51

I I as a lateral myself, I I left San Diego PD and went to Ontario. And, you know, I only had a a year and a half of experience at that point. So I guess getting rid of those old ways of doing things weren't weren't difficult for me as or as difficult because I hadn't had 15, 20 years of experience doing a certain thing a certain way. But it was still hard. You know, I remember I would think, oh, this is how I I would do it. And that wasn't a a w a way of of thinking once I was at the new agency. You know, it's it like you said, Clay, it's a way, it's it's not the way. So being moldable and coachable, I think, is is is the key part. Delivery is huge with ri whatever you're talking about, delivery aspect of of what you're saying needs to be considered. You know, so think long and hard about how you're gonna convey a message to to somebody who has been at an agency in an in an area for their whole life, you know, because what you might be saying can be construed as disrespectful to their whole way of of existence, you know. So I I experienced that too.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:51

Yeah. I mean, where after four years on the job in LAPD, I just I was down in South Central, my hair on fire. And long story short, I moved back to Pennsylvania for a year and three months and worked for a state uh narcotics agency. And I mean, it was temporary insanity based on a uh on an ex. That's all I'll say. And uh, but I did it. And I find myself working with these smaller town coppers in Pennsylvania, my home state. I can relate to them, but it was culturally dramatically different, especially in the tactics world. There, there were no tactics in some cases. And I'm coming from a place where tactics was everything in the 80s in in LA. And uh one event changed changed my perspective. I kept my mouth shut, by the way, just like you said, John, you got and just like Clay Stokerman, you got to watch how you present things. So I kept my mouth shut and I would see things and go, that's crazy. But it's not gonna get anybody killed. And then one day we do a by bust on a house, and I'm first through the door with a shotgun. And the plan is we're going through the first front door, four of us, everybody else is holding the containment on the house, and we're gonna take this guy down. And I'm in the in the door, I go left, and I look down like this through this dining room toward a kitchen, and I see the front barrel of an AK-47 pop out from behind the wall in the kitchen coming my way. The front barrel, and it's clearly an AK-47. And I took the safe, I have an 870 shotgun, I punched the safety off, and my trigger, my finger is now touching the trigger, and it kept coming, and I was about to shoot right through the wall. I was gonna blast this guy right through the wall. And all of a sudden, I see a long sleeve, I see the guy's left hand, and there's a police uniform. It's I can see like a hash mark on it. This idiot cop came in the back door, went against everything that was in the plan. And I came so close to blowing him out of his boots. You I'm I mean, I can't even tell you how close. That would have destroyed me. I would be done right there. We wouldn't be sitting here right now. I don't think I could have survived that. And it wasn't, and it wouldn't have been my fault either. Uh it was that idiot's fault. That's the day that I said, okay, Jack's gonna start speaking up a little more at at briefings. And when I see hear or see something that I don't think is quite right, I'm gonna present it, but I'm gonna do it carefully. You know, when it comes to tactics, you got to do it. But uh, but I'll never forget that moment. I can see that AK right now. I mean, and I can I can picture the hole in the wall that I was gonna create there. I mean, I really can. It was it was so close. So, yeah, when you go to a new agency, no matter even if it's in state, you gotta take your hat, put it in your hand, and quietly come in and see what's going on there. How do they do things? Why do they do them that way? There's nothing wrong with asking questions, but don't come in and say, this is how we did it. You know, it's like, okay, uh, Mr. LAPD guy. I would have I would have hurt myself by doing that, no doubt. You know.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:13

It's an interesting trend to talk about, you know, as as far as the folks that are leaving California law enforcement and going elsewhere in the country. And the fact that there's a couple places that are attracting those officers is interesting. Texas and Florida, Tennessee, Idaho, you know, those are the places that come to mind. So yeah, just you know, food for thought, things to consider as you think about that transition from one area to another. The next conversation that I want to touch on before we close out is as it relates to personnel and staffing levels, because this is directly related to what we're discussing. You know, folks are leaving one agency to go to another and creating all kinds of unforeseen staffing issues, and ultimately that boils down to uh an issue for aviation. You know, whether it's someone unexpectedly retiring and leaving aviation as a pilot to go fly for the airlines or go fly for another agency, or folks not filling the frontline positions to then allow for staffing to go up to air support as a TFO or pilot. Both are issues to deal with. So I'll ask you guys from your perspective and travels, uh, where do you see this problem going and how do we kind of address that? And Jack, let's let's start with you because we talked about that uh two a couple days ago.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:23

Yeah, yeah. We hear about it constantly, don't we, John? I'm in the podcast. It's something we bring up recruitment and retention, recruitment and retention. And so the problem is real. Nearly everybody has it. Not everybody. So my that intrigues me. So when I see that they're not having retention problem or having a problem with staffing, I dig deeper and say, well, what are you doing differently? And you know, the things that they're doing differently is they have good leadership and they have support from their mayor and city council and district attorney. Those, if you have those things, cops aren't going anywhere, even in California. Yeah, they will tolerate California if they have support from their local, from their department and their county and their municipality. So that's that's to me the biggest thing. And uh the other thing is I think retention is more important than recruitment. I mean, they spend a lot of time and money on recruitment when they should be thinking, well, why are we spending all that money on recruitment? Why don't we just try and keep the people longer that we have? Clint Pulver is a great guest that you can listen to to learn more about that. You know, why people, there's a lot of cops. And you say, Well, do you like it here? And they go, I love it here. In in 2026, there's cops that will say that. Why are they saying that? That's what you got to ask. Why are they saying that? It's because of support or it's because of this. Our pay is not the best. I could go make more money here, but that department sucks. Their city council hates the police, they defund them constantly. I'm not gonna deal with that. That you know, so you know, it it's an important thing to look at and understand. And we certainly get a great perspective from the podcast uh in talking to so many people, but I've seen it too. Clay sees it as he travels. You you see the departments that aren't having an issue, and 99.9% of the time, that chief is dynamite on the sleeve. I mean, that one person is a great leader, and they're not having a problem with staffing. That's what's that called the police work? A clue. You know, so there you go.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:43

Yeah, it's it's interesting how much leadership really uh leans into the retention side of things. Clay, when we came to visit your agency on the Blades of Alor Tour in 2025, we were so impressed with your agency, the leadership that you guys have, the leadership culture, uh, and just the culture as a whole, that starts at the top, you know. So we all walked away impressed with what you guys have developed.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:08

I sure did.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:09

Uh, what are your thoughts as it relates to leadership development, retention, and the ongoing uh recruitment issue?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:15

Well, I I just I can't echo enough what Jack said about the leadership. The agencies that I work with that have solid leadership um uh have the best retention. I bring up my friend again, Steve Dye. Every department in Northeast Texas right now has openings. He does not. He's full. Um, and and people go to work with the idea of who they're working for, you know, for our organization, the the mission statement, protect and serve the citizens of Texas, right? It's very clear your your core values, integrity, excellence, accountability, teamwork. These aren't things you wear just kind of, oh, I need to memorize that for a promotional exam. You need to live by those. And when you're working for an organization where no matter what comes up, I can ask myself right now, what would the colonel, what would Freeman Martin want me to do in this situation? And when it's real clear and it's the right thing, and it's ethical, and it's legal, and it's within policy, it's so refreshing to do it. And but when the goalposts move, uh depending on who it is, where it is, what political person is applying pressure, the the people that get squeezed on that, uh sometimes at great physical harm, risk of physical harm are the officers on the ground. And so we have agencies in this area getting back. I I love what Jack just said about those different uh entities, the last one being the most interesting, the DA. There are agencies that will stop pursuits at a county line because they are so worried about their officers ending up in that county in an OIS because they have zero trust in the district attorney and their processes. It's crazy. Like you have crime fighting coming to a stop at a geographical county line because of political, political ideologies in the enforcement area. And so uh, man, those are think about that when you come to Texas. Pick what county you're gonna work for, because I think everyone they might not understand. We have a lot of the same issues California does in some of our counties. But yeah, the leadership. I'm a big fan of wellness. I I didn't get it a lot, and I paid the price for it, and I'm trying to work on it now. But uh man, those those agencies, again, Steve Dy building big athletic facilities, time on duty to train, hiring our our organization in our own air unit, has a fitness and wellness civilian expert in our air unit that will do custom nutrition plans, workouts, all that stuff. So uh the the the Zen rooms with the massage chairs, the water feature, the dark lighting for patrol to go sit in for 10, 15 minutes. Have gotten made fun of if I went in there 20 years ago. Um, our younger folks have are smarter than I was for sure. They figured out this stuff is important. So the agencies that have good wellness programs, not on paper, not to just say they have it uh as a benefit, but they actually embrace it. They encourage you to use the leave, they encourage you to talk to people, they have great retention. And then finally, I'll close with this inside your air unit, if you can do it, get everybody as much training as you can. And what I mean by that is the my organization will buy you, once you're in the unit, any FAA rating you want. So almost everyone in our unit are ATPs, they're CF double I's. You're expected to be working on a rating. And what that does, it it takes, I think, it takes your professionalism way up higher. It makes it easier. You got CF double I's everywhere. You can constantly be training TFOs that haven't promoted to pilot. You can get we'll start working on a rating for them. Why not? Um, so I see agencies when it comes to retention in the air unit, they do the bare minimum. They don't send their pilots to the factory, they don't do full-down emergencies, they don't, you know, look at the future, and then two or three of the old Vietnam era guys leave, and they don't have anybody to fly their aircraft. So again, that kind of takes it from an organization down to our a unit. I know all that takes money, but encourage ratings, encourage professional development. Get these young individuals that are in our organizations that you see across the room that have leadership potential, get them in the classes now to teach them to be good leaders long before you ever promote them. You know, what we tend to do is promote somebody, then send them to supervisor school. Well, that's too late by then. You've already promoted them. You know, how many go fail supervisor school and come back and get demoted? It doesn't happen. Nope. So, so I just, you know, again, encourage, and for the young officers in the room, take the leadership classes. I hear a lot of two and three year officers like, I don't need to go to a supervisor school or FBI leader or whatever. Go, go, because it's going to make you better and and and and that creates uh retention as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:15

Yeah, that professional development leadership knowledge base uh is so important because whether you're a a promoted leader or not, those leadership skills come in handy at any rank, right? We always talk about how how leadership isn't a rank, and it's 100% true. You don't have to be a sergeant, a lieutenant, a captain to enrich the folks' lives that that work around you, you know, to learn those.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:39

It's been expected in my organization. I get looked at it. Why didn't you promote? Why aren't you you you you've been there 26 years, why aren't you an assistant chief pilot or whatever? I'm gonna be honest with you, it's the Peter principal, right? I wasn't good at it. I I I served in an acting role as a supervisor and I did not do well at it. And I'm so thankful that I recognized that that's not for me. I'm not good at it. But that doesn't mean that I can't be a duty station line pilot, TFO, whatever, and be a leader. Oh, you are a leader.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:10

You are that you are definitely a leader in your unit. We saw that. It has nothing to do with rank. So that's really wonderful that you just said what you just said, by the way. Because there's a lot of people that are in that boat. And uh you recognized it and had the courage to to stand up to it and to tell us about it. I mean, that's great.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:29

Well, it's it's again, if you don't know that that Peter principle, it's where you've been really good at everything at your organization. So everybody just thinks you'll be good at this other thing that requires a completely different skill set. And they promote you and then you fail. TFOs do that. He was in SWAT, he was in K9, he's a great guy. We love him, we love just put him in there, and then it doesn't work. So I I'm humble enough. I'm okay with that. I don't get my identity out of captain bars or anything else. I get my identity out of helping a young man or a young woman do well in this job and and mentally survive it, right? And and and don't die of a heart attack three years after they get out of you know, retirement. So that's where I I love that. I love the idea. There's nothing I love more than sitting there tonight and working with a great TFO turning orbits over Dallas, and this guy is killing it. He's just TFOing, and it's a beautiful thing to see. That's my identity. That's that's what I like.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:29

So yeah, what I love about the the both of you is is through your personalities, your classes, and everything else, your leadership skills have transcended your agency, right? They've impacted operations on a global level, whether it's personal operations or as Harold described, operations within a national level police agency. You know, that's that's impressive. That's something that most people can't say. You know, that's something I think most people should should should strive for and want to achieve in their in their career and in their life, is the the enrichment and development of folks that you care about in a in a profession you care about. You know, and our profession is is a noble profession. So um on that I I realize time is short. I want to close out just by thanking you guys for being who you are, for for the passion you have for the industry, uh, for the desire to do something bigger than yourselves throughout your whole lives. You know, you guys have dedicated your your life and career uh to the betterment of of our society. You know, we talk about the the noble profession that we've chosen uh is as tarnished as politicians try and make it, it's an amazing career, you know, and the impact and and ability we have to touch people's lives in a in a positive way is is profound. You know, so uh thank you guys for for that, for for what you've done for me, both of you. Uh look forward to being with you guys at at Echo. Uh breaking bread is always uh one of the best parts of any experience with you guys. Uh having some some some cold ones together will be nice as well. Uh for our listeners, hope to see uh a good number of you there. This will be an impactful class, one you don't want to miss. I guarantee that. Uh so with that, I'll I'll hand it over to you guys for closing thoughts. Clay, I'll go to you and then and then Jack will close out with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:13

Just the last thing I want to say is John, and and then when we go through all these things, you tend to you tend to fall off to the side, and I don't like it. And where I'm going with that is you have created an exceptional situation starting the Hanger Z podcast and what that's grown into. Mike Reno coming in and supporting this and and building it out further. I'm not going to speak for Jack, but I 100%, you have exponentially done more for this industry than I have ever done in teaching a bunch of classes. And it's because you've brought some incredible people together. You've you've you've opened up a network for young people to get information that we never had. We don't have to wait around for a quarterly magazine anymore. We can get we can get real with with the authors. So I just want to close with, because you always do it, you always deflect to the guests, and now Jack's on board with you as well. So Jack as well, but hats off to you and what you've done in building this, and it just continues to grow. I'm I'm thankful to be a part of it. I'm thankful to be your friend, um, and I'm real proud of you.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:22

Thanks, Clay. Yeah, your your friendship means the world to me. As as Jack talked about through your guys' instruction, I think the connections that you make as as you go along that that path is the most important thing, and and your guys' friendship means more than anything, right? So appreciate your kind words and and and what you do. Jack?

SPEAKER_04 1:35:41

Wow, that just shows you how much Clay and I are alike. He just has a better voice than me. Man, oh man. It's so true what you just said, Clay. Thank you for jumping that because I was gonna say something very similar. John is our, Clay, I'm speaking for you and I now. John is our biggest biggest supporter. I mean, he just is, he has been for a long time. Since and I we both appreciate it. And thanks for thinking to do this, and thanks for all the support and the kind words that you've had, and for creating the hanger Z. Uh, I'm so proud to be a part of this. And uh, and I'm so glad that you uh created it and ran with it when people are just going, yeah, whatever. Yeah, have fun with that, John, and look where it is. And Mike saw it, and Mike's a visionary in many ways. I mean, Mike doesn't uh jump on every opportunity, he he picks and chooses, he knows what's good, and he saw what you did and ran with it too. So um, well done. Thanks for all the kind words. Thanks for putting this together. And I'll just end by saying uh I really appreciate everything that both of you have said uh about me earlier and about the class and all that. It means the world to me. Night, it's nearly 19,000 people attended my class over 26 years. And the only reason I know that number is because of John Gray. He he was making fun of me that I didn't know the number. And I'm like, dude, I didn't think there was gonna be 50 people, okay? Just so you know, when I started teaching this, I mean, Rick Lowen, I owe him everything. Chris Warren for pushing me to write the book, so many people that supported me. But my point is, I didn't think this would go anywhere. And then at the end of the day, John goes, Well, you should know that number. I went back through records and I guessed, and I was very conservative, and I came up with 18,000, and since then it's been another thousand. So 19,000 people that have attended the class makes me feel really good, really good. And I'm I'm thankful for all of it. And uh to Kyle Schoberg and Mark Redlich from Shots Fire Training Group, I I'm gonna support you in every way to keep this alive. Keep it going in any way you can because it's uh it's worth the class is worth keeping alive. And it doesn't, it has nothing to do with me, it has to do with the information, and uh and I'm confident they will. But uh John, thanks for all the opportunities. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:15

Oh my. So that guy on the left there, that was a year after.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:19

I remember that guy.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:21

That it was a year after your first class.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:22

So I just I remember that guy coming up to me and saying, Hey, can I ask y'all a question? And I'm like, you sure you surely can, young man. And the rest is history, ladies and gentlemen.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:35

That's it.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:36

God bless America. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:38

I'll I'll say it relates to what you just brought up. Clay, I won't put you on the spot and ask you how many students you've had, but think about it, and and we'll talk about it at a different time. But if out of 19,000 students, only one person was apprehended as a result of your class, which we know that number is is that's not realistic, right? If only one person was apprehended, that's 19,000 folks were put in prison because of your action as an instructor. That's that's pretty impactful, right? But Clay, we'll come back to you and think about that, you know, and talk about that at a future time.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:08

Sounds good.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:10

Yeah, wild. So uh on that, look forward to seeing you guys in Philadelphia. Uh, so we'll uh we'll close out and catch us next time on the Hanger Z podcast.