What makes a tactical training legacy last for over 25 years? Part 2 | Ep 371

Welcome to The Hangar Z Podcast, brought to you by Vertical HeliCASTS, in partnership with Valor Plus.
 
In this special two-part series, hosts Jon Gray and Jack Schonely are joined by Clay Lacey of the Texas Department of Public Safety and Harald Brink of the Dutch National Police to explore the 25-plus-year legacy of Jack Schonely’s tactical training. 
 
From individual officer safety to agency-wide operations, Jack’s framework for apprehending fleeing suspects has become a global standard for pilots, tactical flight officers, and K-9 handlers alike.
 
In this episode, the group reflects on the leadership and shared experiences that have shaped law enforcement tactics across the U.S. and Europe. Harald provides a global perspective and previews his upcoming course on locating missing persons, while Clay shares hard-earned insights on the humility required to mentor the next generation. 
 
The conversation also explores what it takes to become an effective instructor, focusing on authenticity over ego. Finally, the group looks ahead to the ECHO 2026 Public Safety Aviation Conference in Philadelphia. If you’re committed to tactical training, instructor development, and the future of public safety aviation, this is an episode you won't want to miss.

Thank you to our sponsors Dallas Avionics, Metro Aviation and SHOTOVER.

Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:17

In this episode of the Hanger Z podcast, we talk with Clay Lacy and Harold Brink from the Dutch National Police.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

That class had a direct impact not only on outcomes of operations, but on my personal career. I wouldn't be here in this opportunity with that Jack Shainley. The fact that he's leaving is hugely uh difficult for me to deal with because he's an icon.

SPEAKER_06 0:38

We're in the middle of conference season and talking about the big changes, big lessons, and big impact taking place across our public safety aviation community. We'll also look ahead to preview Echo's 2026 Public Safety Aviation Conference in Philadelphia. Thank you to our sponsors, Shotover, Metro Aviation, and Dallas Avionic.

SPEAKER_04 0:59

Welcome to the Hangers D Podcast, brought to you by Vertical Helicast. The Hangers D Podcast is the first and only podcast dedicated to promoting and exploring the personnel and equipment behind the missions in public safety aviation.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

So Southbound's getting to a stop. Okay, the guy, he's running through the house, jumping the fence, through the shotgun, through something out, grabbing the shotgun. Don't go over that fence. Don't go over that fence. Grab the shotgun again. He is armed. Stay there. Hold your position.

SPEAKER_06 1:32

What was the beauty of your class and Clay's class is that this the stuff that you learn, you could be a first-year patrol officer. You learn that stuff, and the power of the debriefs that you talk about, for me, is something that's stuck with me forever. Still, I can I can I can as you go through those debriefs, I I can almost remember each one and the power that it has. So I think, you know, again, going back to you know, year one, you take that class, and now year 23, you find yourself in an admin position in aggrand perimeter, and you can reach back and pull pieces out of that class that you taught for the benefit of what's happening currently. So love love that in that course for that reason. Um let's shift gears a little bit and talk about Echo and what you guys accomplished last year by teaching together. So, Clay, we'll start with you. Talk about some of the goals you guys had in teaching together and and maybe what some of the unintended consequences were. Maybe not consequences, but benefits of of that uh co-teaching.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Well, I think it was it for me, it was super like natural. You know, Jack and I didn't even really cut up how we were gonna do a lot of it. And I enjoyed that part of it, and it was it was so refreshing to have him back me up with a maybe similar but a little different perspective on uh on the same topic. And yeah, I you know um I think the students really got a lot of bang for their buck, and that's not tootin' my horn at all. But to have Jack, I think, brought out the best in me. Uh that was the best class I probably ever taught because I think number one, your friggin' mentor idol is standing next to you in the class. That was a big deal, man. I mean, that was uh that was not easy for me to do, and then you know, you're you're you're able to work off of one another. The only things we were careful about, and we both, I think it's the mutual respect, we didn't want to stand on each other. So we wanted to make sure we got in and out because the format was sort of one person in the lead one day, the other one backing them up, and then those roles switch. And I think we did a good job with that. I was worried about that. I I I didn't want to interject too much when I was in the support role. So I'd wait for Jack to open a door and and and then try to do that. And so I I really enjoyed it. He brought out the best in me. It's a uh it's a box check, a bucket list career box item, you know. Uh again, I wish I could show you the little 21-year-old Clay in a navy blue flight suit, uh, that the picture I was wanted to show of how that's come. So uh I think Echo's done a good job, not just not because of us, just having the idea. The other thing about that class I really liked was the actual physical layout of the room. The room was set up, as I recall, with large round tables. Yeah. And I think there were eight to ten, maybe, or six to eight that could sit at a table. So a lot of the agencies grouped up, but a lot of them didn't. There weren't a lot of agencies there that sent ten people. So they're sitting with other people and they're looking at each other, and during a lot of the downtime, uh, there was conversation. They could spin around and face us, they could face one another, and then there was a there was a communal lunch where we we we ate there and everyone was there together. I've never experienced that. I thought that was a great thing. Again, I wrote something down.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Uh I hope you will keep on doing the Hango Z uh hosting podcast uh hosting project. Because if you if if we're also gonna lose you there, uh that's not good. Not for us, not for nobody in the community. Thank you, John. No, he doesn't. He doesn't. Um I keep on texting you, and if you don't answer, I keep on texting Clay. Thank you for all you did. Not only for the airborne law enforcement community, but for the entire law enforcement community in the world. And uh I hope to see you all in uh Philadelphia.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

Can't wait. Can't wait. We'll see you in Philly, Harold. Thanks for all the kind words. Love you, brother.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

See you bye-bye, guys. Bye, yeah, see you, Harold.

SPEAKER_03 5:49

I going back to the the echo experience. Well, I ditto. I mean, everything Clay just said, I felt the exact same way. However, one thing that was different is I was not worried about it. I mean, I didn't think, oh, I hope, man, I hope this could I knew it was gonna go fine. I knew it. And it went 10 times better than I expected. And I my expectation was really positive. It really was. And then the feedback, Clay and I both talked about that. I mean, we talked about it openly at the end of the class, as I recall, Clay, thanking the group and saying, you guys made this extra special because people really were asking good questions and getting involved and giving their examples. And Clay and I both seen the classes where you don't get you don't get any of that. And but yet the the critiques are like outstanding, but yet nobody stepped up and raised their hand. That did not happen. In our two days, the interaction with that class was phenomenal. And it goes back to Echo exactly what Clay said. It was the tables. I swear it was. It was the way it was set up with the tables, the lunch, everything Clay mentioned. We and we told Echo that, by the way. We told John and and others that hey, that was gold. It helped us as instructors. But I was excited about that opportunity because I I know, you know, obviously everybody knows how I feel about Clay and we feel about each other. And that was an opportunity that I was not going to miss. And John, I think that was your idea, as a matter of fact. I I don't think Clay and I can take credit for that idea. We just said, yeah. Uh, but John, you you, as I recall, proposed that. And I mean, it you didn't finish your sentence. And I said, Yep. Just like invite me to join the podcast. Would you like to be a ho? Okay, yes. You know, it was the same thing. So great, great idea, John. And and John knows Clay and I good enough that he knew it would work. He did. He he knew it would work, and uh, and it did, and I'm thankful that we got to do that. I can't wait to do it again in Philly. It it turned out really good. Like Clay mentioned. The the perspective, just slightly different perspectives. People need to hear that. People need to hear different perspectives. I have told recruits this, I have told experienced officers this, tactics is not black and white. Everything about tactics is gray. There is no right or wrong. Now, there are certain rules within tactics that you shall that are shall not break, but most tactics is you just apply it to your agency, your situation. I can't say this is how you do it. So the fact that Clay and I do have a SoCal Texas perspectives on different things, I think who wins there? The students win. They win. Because live, they got to hear slightly different perspectives. Clay and I don't agree a hundred percent on everything. And I think, and I've always told students that's wonderful. We we would have recruits it would drive me crazy in critique saying building search uh critiquing the building search um cadre. And they'd say, Well, it was really good and blah, blah, blah. But Jack said one thing about the corner, and Clay said another, and John said this, and and they need to get it together, you know, and they you know, this is ridiculous. And I'd get I'd hear those critiques, and I'd say, I'd go to to students themselves and say, You're crazy. All right. You should be thanking the three of us for giving you three perspectives or five on a corner. You should be thanking us. You know, that's what tactis is about. Now you get the pick. And and guess what? If you pick Clay's technique over mine, I'm not, oh darn, Clay got that technique. I didn't I'm like, yeah, baby, that's that's what it's about. You apply what works for you because outside of training and outside of the academy, especially, and you get out of field training, who gets to make the decision and how to make that corner? You. And that's exactly what I would say to them. I said, you need to get your attitude right about training and understand that if you hear 20 different ways, you should be going, oh, thank you. Thank you. Someday you get to choose which of the 20 you're going to use. And then I would share with them that, you know, on a big city department, big, I mean LA, during my 12 months probation, you know how many training officers I had in 12 months? About 25 plus. I mean, at minimum 24. But then you'd work with other training officers, two each month. Guess what? Every one of them was different. Their personality was different, their tactics were different, their priorities were different. You had one that loved doing uh DUIs, you had one that hated DUIs. I was thankful for that. I got to see it all, and then I got to pick that's the officer I want to emulate, or that's the technique I'm gonna use. So uh that's why I thought it was so valuable at Echo, and that's why I we I can't wait to do it again. Um, it's it'll be good.

SPEAKER_06 11:24

Your guys' presentations are are similar but different, you know. They are as Clay said, your presentation applies to the cannon officer, the patrol officer, the TFO, the TFO with no camera, the TFO with binoculars, the key, the TFO with an amazing camera. And Klay, yours is the same way. You know, I I feel like your guys' uh presentations are just kind of universally applicable.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Well, and and circling back a little bit, we were kind of laughing about the chief stuff.

unknown 11:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

They're the ones that need to be in there. Oh, yeah. And in the ones that have, and I'll give kudos to a personal friend of mine, Steve Dye at the Allen Police Department, came from Grand Prairie. I worked with him in Garland. He is he has codified this chase to contain concept into their general manual where this is what we are going to do. This is how we are going to contain suspects. This is what a search team will consist of. And then he vows to provide the the resources to meet all of that. And guess who we have the highest apprehension rates with? Any city in the metro are those cities. Yeah. Are those cities? And, you know, but again, I think the the the leadership could really do a lot in this versus, you know, I've been through FBI LEDA, we've all done all leadership stuff, that's great stuff. But at the end of the day, the the the chain of command all the way up to the chief, you know, needs to really be in tune with how patrol is uh managing these incidents and support them in that endeavor. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:56

I wish more of them were in there. Me too. I I you know, I don't pretty soon I'm not gonna have to worry about it anymore, but it has bothered me for 26 years. It really has. And some the departments that that heard me say it in my opening email to them saying, hey, this is for this class is designed for the following things, including command staff, and in some cases, especially command staff, the ones that that sent their command staff, lieutenants and above, they they were the ones that I would looked at and went, wow. I mean, I've had I've had chiefs write me emails and say, Hey Jack, I just thought you, or Texas especially, hey Jack, guess where I am? I'm sitting on a corner of a perimeter. And I'm like, Yeah. I said, which corner you got? He goes, I I went diagonal uh from the foot pursuit, and guess what? Oh, they're taking them into custody right now inside our perimeter. I'm like, kudos to you, chief. I mean, you're setting an example to your troops, and you're sitting on the perimeter and you knew what to do because I was I was just there and you attended the class. Matter of fact, that particular chief in Connors, Georgia, uh, he attended, I was there for multiple days. He was in every class all day. I I admired that so much. I mean, he he's a wonderful man. And uh, you know, it benefits because you're gonna be out there too, especially on smaller departments. But I can give you examples from LA. I remember Bratton coming up, Chief Bratton on a New Year's Eve coming to a perimeter and saying he was right at the corner of his perimeter with a man with a gun. And there were officers there, and he pulled up there and said, I want the command post to move from the block away to up here. And a good sergeant said, No, sir, you're in the kill zone. You need to come a block east here and join us at the command post. And he did. You know, he doesn't know. When's the last time he set a perimeter? Maybe never. I mean, really, honestly, because he came from a culture where it didn't set perimeters, but he didn't know. He just saw, well, the perimeter's right here. Well, yeah, the bad guy might be in that bush right there with a gun, and now you're vulnerable. And if you had tactics 101, you know why the sergeant set the containment, the perimeter uh command post a block away, down there. That's a great example.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

They they just you don't know what you don't know, you know, and uh he didn't one one night Steve die at Grand Prairie. It's it's late, it's midnight, manhunt. He's on his way home from a city function. Um and all you hear, and it's not his unit number, but they were given out the stationary perimeter location assignments, and he just keys up, and everybody knows who it is. And it's it's you know, unit one, I'm gonna be at first in Broadway. And that's the only thing he said during this entire hour-long event. The patrol lieutenant was running the search with us as the air crew. Canine was on the ground, the guy got in custody, and you heard him say, Unit one, I'm clear, I'm so proud of you guys. Stay safe. And he goes, he goes home. And it's the chief of police, you know. And what is that, what does that say to the late night folks, you know, out there, the canine team. There was no, you know, here's what you guys need to be doing. And and he admitted, he goes, they know more about going and hunting men than I do at this point. I'm I'm up in administration. So I really love leadership like that. I think that's that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_04 16:20

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SPEAKER_03 16:49

And they're out there. They're out there, but they're becoming fewer and far between. And it's a shame because they have opportunities to attend classes, to read articles. I say this all the time on articles that I've written in the past where I'm being critical of supervision and some safety decision making, whatever it is. And I always say the people that really need to read this article never will. They because they know everything. They they don't need what do they need to hear from Jack about? You know, who's this guy? Well, maybe you should read and find out, you know, and and in some cases they would have read and gone, hey, I think he's talking about me, because I was. They don't strive to learn more, you know. The good ones strive to learn more. They read all the articles, they watch the the podcast, they they uh go to the classes, and then eventually in the field, it hits the fan and they're in charge and they're like, I got this. I got this, or I got this corner, even better. I got this corner. This is mine. There are no two corners like it. This one's mine, you know, and I'm gonna do my best here and remember the things I've learned about what I should be looking for and listening for, and and trust the subject matter experts. TFO, canine, SWAT, patrol people. They're the experts on this. The job, my job is to sit at this corner and keep this bad guy from getting out. You know, I I love that.

SPEAKER_06 18:24

Well, I'll wrap up the conversation surrounding Echo and in this particular topic for now and kind of transit transition the conversation of some headwinds and some other topics that we've kind of discussed offline. But before I close this out entirely, I just want to encourage you to intend this class. Uh, Philadelphia, the Echo Conference is great. You know, it's an opportunity for us to come together as a public safety aviation community, not just the law enforcement aviation community, to learn from each other. You know, I've I've learned so much from the different segments, the Hymns segment in particular, in ways that I never thought would apply. You know, and it's really cool to see the different segments come together and take the good and the bad from each and learn. Uh so highly encourage you to attend this year, not just to take Clay and Jack's class. There's going to be uh two other days of instruction uh that will follow their class uh with some great topics, uh including uh a class that I'm gonna lead on internal and external marketing of your unit, which will be cool. And Jack will probably tap you into help me there. We're doing a little bit of that at uh AppsCon, so that'll be cool. Yeah, look forward to seeing y'all there and looking forward to sitting in your class. The last point on that is you know, touch on the organic side of the conversation in your guys' class in particular, and in particular to Echo for the folks that are coming, uh take an opportunity to listen to Clay's podcast and he's been on as a part of the Hanger Z, read Jack's book and come armed to the class with some questions you may have, you know, for organic conversation. You know, that preparation that you bring into that class, I think, will be critical.

SPEAKER_05 19:57

That's right. Very good. Any other thoughts on those, on those topics before you move on? Yeah, I'll I'll just add, let's go, Burks County, Pennsylvania.

SPEAKER_03 20:05

You know, uh that's my home county. Philly's right down the road. I'm gonna be calling a couple people there and saying, hey, put a you know, put a bug in your canine people's ear, particularly. But you know, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, you're right there. New York's not far. Get down there. It's worth your while. As a patrol officer, a canine handler, and an air crew member, those three things particularly. But we we've been talking about, so we might as well add it. Hey, uh, Lieutenant Sergeants and above, come on down. You know, we're that this is valuable stuff, you know, and you're getting two passionate people that will share everything we got with you. And you can ask us anything. Anything. There, we clay and I don't stand there and go, Oh, I'll have to get back to you on that. You know, no, you're gonna hear two direct answers to any question. And if it takes an hour for us to to address it, we will. The class is not, it's set up in a way that, yeah, we have slides, but we don't care if we do one slide or 60 slides. We want to interact. And last year, that's what happened. And oh man, it was wonderful. I loved those two days.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Yeah, I'd like to just reiterate what Jack said about if you're an air unit crew member and you're you're signed up, you're coming to Echo and and you're excited about that. If you really want all of this to improve, it's your organization, figure out a way to bring a couple of the canine guys. Figure out a way to bring a couple of patrol leaders, FTOs, something. Figure out a way. If I need to give you a lesson plan, an instructor bio and all that, so you can submit it for your state agency credit, I'd be happy to do that. But when you get those other or other partners in the room and those discussions happen and we start getting on the same page, you're gonna start putting a lot of bad guys in jail. Yep. And so I just encourage those units if you're coming, this is not just an air crew topic. It's just not. And I think, you know, I oh I think it was Louisville that brought uh a pretty big group. Of their team outside of air and then and then had me come back up and do some more. And I'm getting texts every day from Brent up there that man, we we had an apprehension this way, this happened, that kind of thing. So if you're listening and you're coming, bring your people. And if uh if you're not in an air crew and you just listen to this podcast or whatever else, if you're in patrol doing street operations, I I think you can get something out of this that may save your life one day, but it but certainly make you more effective.

SPEAKER_03 22:49

There's nothing better. I mean, as cops, there's nothing better than the reward of capturing a bad guy that's really trying to avoid capture. There's nothing, not a better feeling in the world. A couple of years ago, now I was talking to John and we were talking on the phone, and Tracy and I were in the RV, and John will remember this. We were in Northern California, driving back into Oregon, and I said, Hey, John, I'm passing Pelican Bay. Pelican Bay is the most badass prison in California. It's where all the bad, the most evil people end up. And I said, I am proud to have put as many people in there. And it just made me our heart warm, you know. Oh, I mean, from even in the 80s, there were probably some people still in there too, uh, from those arrests in the 80s. There's just nothing more rewarding. But it doesn't do it itself. You've got to get things right. You've got to be tactically right, you got to be able to communicate, coordinate. And that's what Clay and I are sharing. And we share our mistakes. That's the one thing that both of us do very consistently. We will talk about our mistakes all day long, every day and twice on Sunday, because we learn from those. And now we want others to learn from our mistakes so they don't make them. Because let's face it, Clay will say that I'll just speak for me, but Clay says the same thing. Some of the most stupid mistakes you'll ever hear in your life are things that I've done and I share them. And be I'm not, and I don't worry about that, because I just know we're human, we all make them, and I've learned more from those mistakes than any success I ever had. So, with that said, uh, this is a great opportunity for people to come to Philadelphia and come here, two passionate instructors on a topic that means something. It means a lot to us, it means a lot to every hardworking street cop, air crew member, canine handler, SWAT operator, and command staff. Come and see us. You will not be disappointed. We will do our best for you. I can I can sure assure you that.

SPEAKER_06 24:49

Yep. Yep. On that, just go to I think it's echoflightcrew.org and uh find the registration for uh Echo Philadelphia and uh look forward to seeing you there. Uh the remaining 20 or so minutes we've got uh talked about some stuff offline that I think is is interesting as it relates to headwinds and in in I guess current industry trends, the flow of uh residents fleeing the state of California is not slowing down anytime soon. You know, unfortunately the the political and and financial environment in California is is just making it very difficult for for people to work and live in. So a lot of officers are are leaving their agencies early and moving to two two states in particular, uh, but I know that there's there's plenty. Uh the two states that that come to mind are Florida and Texas. So I I asked Clay, I said, you know, in your experience when you have these folks coming to agencies in Texas out of California, what's your experience been? So I'll I'll ask that question again, Clay. I'll ask you, you know, what's your experience been with those officers that are that are leaving? What considerations should they put into place if they're considering leaving California and coming to work for an agency in Texas? And and I guess what advice would you have for those folks?

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Yeah, it's a it's a it's a big thing here. And we just onboarded a local PD TFO, task force TFO, that came from California. We already have one from another local police department that came from California. And I'll preface this by saying I'm a native Texan, born and raised here in Dallas, but over history, California has just absolutely led the way in so much in law enforcement. I mean, SWAT was born there, canine as we know it now was born there. There's so much good that comes from there. But again, and the and the the the thread in this, in my opinion, is the leadership of the organization you go to. So if you come to Texas, it's not California, and uh delivery of your ideas is important, right? Because you have a lot of Texas cops that actually may be doing things goofy. Um, but your delivery of how you suggest that changes needs to be careful because you end up offending and you hear this if you if you don't like what we're doing so much, take your ass back to California. And leadership can put that to bed by bringing and unifying people together, but when they neglect it, you get I've I've seen it, absolutely divided squadrooms. There is a shift briefing with five California laterals over here and five Texas guys, and they don't talk to each other. And so I just say, and I think Jack will back me up on this, and John, y'all are out in the industry enough. The grass is always greener, right? I go to a lot of agencies to train, and they're like, we're so screwed up, we mess this up, we messed this up. Everyone does. And Jack and John and I, Harold, we're all in a position to go out like Nick Meeks' carrier pigeon model and see this isn't just unique to you. Everyone is struggling with these things. So when you come from another state to Texas, at least, it's different. I've had the California officers say, I had more latitude in California as a police officer than I do here. We, you know, and I may have this wrong, but if someone's on parole, we can search them at any given time on the side of the road, you know, all that kind of stuff. And it's just different here. And you're also dealing with Texas is Texas in terms of the way citizens view government. We are not government dependent. And and and so you got to be careful as a bureaucrat or uh of the government on how you approach things. When the space shuttle blew up over East Texas, I'll never forget all the Texas peace officers were going up to someone's door knocking, saying, Sir, we believe that you might have some shuttle debris in the backyard. Can you take us back there and we can look around? Versus some federal folks from up north just went out on these people's property. That does not go over well in Texas.

SPEAKER_06 29:02

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SPEAKER_02 29:25

I would just say research the department. Um, I've had people come here and say, I didn't know they weren't civil service. You need to look at that before you start. Like get the background, come visit, talk to the officers that are here. And also finally, I'll close with this. Just understand that policing is changed. And if you're looking, like I want to look for what we did 25 years ago and how we did it, it's it's gone. Like that's not the way it's done. So you're either going to embrace the technology and the tactics to stay out of a civil suit and out of federal prison, or you're gonna be real frustrated with everywhere you go. And that's why I like the chase to contain model where we're not actually chasing to put our hands on people, we're chasing to control them, get them laid up so we go arrest them on our terms. It's a better YouTube video with an arrest team, a dog, and a shield than it is with a one-on-one fist fight, gun grab, shoot the bad guy in between the houses, right? So I would just say to the outside agencies, research your department, and then bring your ideas, but figure out how you can deliver them in a way that's not going to be as offensive to who you're walking in and talking to. Jack and I have to do this in the classroom every time. I try to put my hat in hand, have some humility. This is a way to consider. I'm not saying it's the only way to do it. There's pros and cons, but a lot of people come in very passionate about their tactics. Jack's example on pieing corners in a threshold is a wonderful example of, or a dynamic entry, who's you know, digging corners, who's not. But but as long as the delivery is, hey, I'm gonna give you this information, take what you like out of it, you'll do better. And and that's where I see a lot of the California. One of the California guys came here last year and called us to teach us how to work vehicle pursuits from the air. Uh, and that's what he said. He said, Man, I've got more experience with it than y'all do. I came from California. Here's what you guys need to be doing. A lot of what he said was great stuff. Uh, but the delivery wasn't good. So that's what I'd be careful that's what I'd be careful about. I agree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 31:34

I I as a lateral myself, I I left San Diego PD and went to Ontario. And, you know, I only had a a year and a half of experience at that point. So I guess getting rid of those old ways of doing things weren't weren't difficult for me as or as difficult because I hadn't had 15, 20 years of experience doing a certain thing a certain way. But it was still hard. You know, I remember I would think, oh, this is how I I would do it. And that wasn't a a w a way of of thinking once I was at the new agency. You know, it's it like you said, Clay, it's a way, it's it's not the way. So being moldable and coachable, I think, is is is the key part. Delivery is huge with ri whatever you're talking about, delivery aspect of of what you're saying needs to be considered. You know, so think long and hard about how you're gonna convey a message to to somebody who has been at an agency in an in an area for their whole life, you know, because what you might be saying can be construed as disrespectful to their whole way of of existence, you know. So I I experienced that too.

SPEAKER_03 32:34

Yeah. I mean, where after four years on the job in LAPD, I just I was down in South Central, my hair on fire. And long story short, I moved back to Pennsylvania for a year and three months and worked for a state uh narcotics agency. And I mean, it was temporary insanity based on a uh on an ex. That's all I'll say. And uh, but I did it. And I find myself working with these smaller town coppers in Pennsylvania, my home state. I can relate to them, but it was culturally dramatically different, especially in the tactics world. There, there were no tactics in some cases, and I'm coming from a place where tactics was everything in the 80s in in LA. And uh one event changed changed my perspective. I kept my mouth shut, by the way, just like you said, John. You got and just like Clay Stokerman, you got to watch how you present things. So I kept my mouth shut and I would see things and go, that's crazy. But it's not gonna get anybody killed. And then one day we do a by bust on a house, and I'm first through the door with a shotgun. And the plan is we're going through the first front door, four of us, everybody else is holding the containment on the house, and we're gonna take this guy down. And I'm in the in the door, I go left, and I look down like this through this dining room toward a kitchen, and I see the front barrel of an AK-47 pop out from behind the wall in the kitchen coming my way. The front barrel, and it's clearly an AK-47. And I took the I have an 870 shotgun, I punched the safety off, and my trigger, my finger is now touching the trigger, and it kept coming, and I was about to shoot right through the wall. I was gonna blast this guy right through the wall. And all of a sudden, I see a long sleeve, I see the guy's left hand, and there's a police uniform. It's I can see like a hash mark on it. This idiot cop came in the back door, went against everything that was in the plan, and I came so close to blowing him out of his boots. You I'm I mean, I can't even tell you how close. That would have destroyed me. I would be done right there. We wouldn't be sitting here right now. I don't think I could have survived that. And it wasn't, and it wouldn't have been my fault either. Uh it was that idiot's fault. That's the day that I said, okay, Jack's gonna start speaking up a little more at briefings. And when I see hear or see something that I don't think is quite right, I'm gonna present it, but I'm gonna do it carefully. You know, when it comes to tactics, you got to do it. But uh, but I'll never forget that moment. I can see that AK right now. I mean, and I can I can picture the hole in the wall that I was gonna create there. I mean, I really can. It was it was so close. So, yeah, when you go to a new agency, no matter even if it's in state, you gotta take your hat, put it in your hand, and quietly come in and see what's going on there. How do they do things? Why do they do them that way? There's nothing wrong with asking questions, but don't come in and say, this is how we did it. You know, it's like, okay, uh, Mr. LAPD guy. Now I would have I would have hurt myself by doing that, no doubt. You know.

SPEAKER_06 35:56

It's an interesting trend to talk about, you know, as far as the folks that are leaving California law enforcement and going elsewhere in the country. And the fact that there's a couple places that are attracting those officers is interesting. Texas and Florida, Tennessee, Idaho, you know, those are the places that come to mind. So yeah, just you know, food for thought, things to consider as you think about that transition from one area to another. The next conversation that I want to touch on before we close out is as it relates to personnel and staffing levels, because this is directly related to what we're discussing. You know, folks are leaving one agency to go to another and creating all kinds of unforeseen staffing issues, and ultimately that boils down to uh an issue for aviation. You know, whether it's someone unexpectedly retiring and leaving aviation as a pilot to go fly for the airlines or go fly for another agency, or folks not filling the frontline positions to then allow for staffing to go up to air support as a TFO or pilot. Both are issues to deal with. So I'll ask you guys from your perspective and travels, uh, where do you see this problem going and how do we kind of address that? And Jack, let's let's start with you because we talked about that uh two a couple days ago.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Yeah, yeah. Well, we hear about it constantly, don't we, John? I'm in the podcast. It's something we bring up recruitment and retention, recruitment and retention. And so the problem is real. Nearly everybody has it. Not everybody. So my that intrigues me. So when I see that they're not having retention problem or having a problem with staffing, I dig deeper and say, well, what are you doing differently? And you know, the things that they're doing differently is they have good leadership and they have support from their mayor and city council and district attorney. Those, if you have those things, cops aren't going anywhere, even in California. Yeah, they will tolerate California if they have support from their local, from their department and their county and their municipality. So that's that's to me the biggest thing. And uh the the other thing is I think retention is more important than recruitment. I mean, they spend a lot of time and money on recruitment when they should be thinking, well, why are we spending all that money on recruitment? Why don't we just try and keep the people longer that we have? Clint Pulver is a great guest that you can listen to to learn more about that. You know, why people, there's a lot of cops and you say, Well, do you like it here? And they go, I love it here. In in 2026, there's cops that will say that. Why are they saying that? That's what you got to ask. Why are they saying that? It's because of support or it's because of this. Our pay is not the best. I could go make more money here, but that department sucks. Their city council hates the police, they defund them constantly. I'm not gonna deal with that. That you know, so you know, it it's an important thing to look at and understand. And we certainly get a great perspective from the podcast uh in talking to so many people, but I've seen it too. Clay sees it as he travels. You see the departments that aren't having an issue, and 99.9% of the time, that chief is dynamite on the sleeve. I mean, that one person is a great leader, and they're not having a problem with staffing. That's what's that called the police work? A clue. You know, so there you go.

SPEAKER_06 39:26

Yeah, it's it's interesting how much leadership really uh leans into the retention side of things. Clay, when we came to visit your agency on the Blades of Eller Tour in 2025, we were so impressed with your agency, the leadership that you guys have, the leadership culture, uh, and just the culture as a whole, that starts at the top, you know. So we all walked away impressed with what you guys have developed.

SPEAKER_03 39:51

I sure did.

SPEAKER_06 39:52

Uh, what are your thoughts as it relates to leadership development, retention, and the ongoing uh recruitment issue?

SPEAKER_02 39:58

Well, I I just I can't echo enough what Jack said about the leadership. The agencies that I work with that have solid leadership um uh have the best retention. I bring up my friend again, Steve Dye. Every department in Northeast Texas right now has openings. He does not. He's full. Um, and and people go to work with the idea of who they're working for, you know, for our organization, the the mission statement, protect and serve the citizens of Texas, right? It's very clear your your core values, integrity, excellence, accountability, teamwork. These aren't things you wear just kind of, oh, I need to memorize that for a promotional exam. You need to live by those. And when you're working for an organization where no matter what comes up, I can ask myself right now, what would the colonel, what would Freeman Martin want me to do in this situation? And when it's real clear and it's the right thing and it's ethical and it's legal and it's within policy, it's so refreshing to do it. And but when the goalposts move, uh depending on who it is, where it is, what political person is applying pressure, the people that get squeezed on that, uh sometimes at great physical harm, risk of physical harm are the officers on the ground. And so we have agencies in this area getting back. I I love what Jack just said about those different uh entities, the last one being the most interesting, the DA. There are agencies that will stop pursuits at a county line because they are so worried about their officers ending up in that county in an OIS because they have zero trust in the district attorney and their processes. It's crazy. Like you have crime fighting coming to a stop at a geographical county line because of political political ideologies in the enforcement area. And so, uh, man, those are think about that when you come to Texas. Pick what county you're gonna work for, because I think everyone they might not understand. We have a lot of the same issues California does in some of our counties. But yeah, the leadership.

SPEAKER_04 42:08

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SPEAKER_02 42:47

I'm a big fan of wellness. I didn't get it a lot, and I paid the price for it, and I'm trying to work on it now. But uh man, those those agencies, again, Steve Dye building big athletic facilities, time on duty to train, hiring our our organization in our own air unit has a fitness and wellness civilian expert in our air unit that will do custom nutrition plans, workouts, all that stuff. So uh the the Zen rooms with the massage chairs, the water feature, the dark lighting for patrol to go sit in for 10, 15 minutes. I'd have gotten made fun of if I went in there 20 years ago. Um, our younger folks have are smarter than I was for sure. They figured out this stuff is important. So the agencies that have good wellness programs, not on paper, not to just say they have it uh as a benefit, but they actually embrace it. They encourage you to use the leave, they encourage you to talk to people. They have great retention. And then finally, I'll close with this inside your air unit, if you can do it, get everybody as much training as you can. And what I mean by that is the my organization will buy you, once you're in the unit, any FAA rating you want. So almost everyone in our unit is are ATPs, they're CF double I's. You're expected to be working on a rating. And what that does, it it takes, I think, it takes your professionalism way up higher. It makes it easier. You got CF double I's everywhere, you can constantly be trained. TFOs that haven't promoted to pilot, you can get we'll start working on a rating for them. Why not? Um, so I I see agencies when it comes to retention in the air unit, they do the bare minimum. They don't send their pilots to the factory, they don't do fold-down emergencies, they don't, you know, look at the future, and then two or three of the old Vietnam era guys leave, and they don't have anybody to fly their aircraft. So again, that kind of takes it from an organization down to our a unit. I know all that takes money, but encourage ratings, encourage professional development. Get these young individuals that are in our organizations that you see across the room that have leadership potential, get them in the classes now to teach them to be good leaders long before you ever promote them. Uh, you know, what we tend to do is promote somebody, then send them to supervisor school. Well, that's too late by then, you've already promoted them. You know, how many go fail supervisor school and come back and get demoted? It doesn't happen. Nope. So, so I just, you know, again, encourage and for the young officers in the room, take the leadership classes. I hear a lot of two and three year officers like, uh, I don't need to go to a supervisor school or FBI leader or whatever. Go. Go, because it's gonna make you better and and and and that creates uh retention as well.

SPEAKER_06 45:38

Yeah, that professional development leadership knowledge base uh is so important because whether you're a a promoted leader or not, those leadership skills come in handy at any rank, right? We always talk about how how leadership isn't a rank, and it's 100% true. You don't have to be a sergeant, a lieutenant, a captain to enrich the folks' lives that that work around you, you know, to learn this.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

It's been expected in my organization. I get looked at it. Why didn't you promote? Why aren't you you you've been there 26 years? Why aren't you an assistant chief pilot or whatever? I'm gonna be honest with you, it's the Peter principal, right? I wasn't good at it. I I I served in an acting role as a supervisor and I did not do well at it. And I'm so thankful that I recognized that that's not for me, I'm not good at it. But that doesn't mean that I can't be a duty station line pilot, TFO, whatever, and be a leader. Oh, you are a leader.

SPEAKER_03 46:32

You are you are definitely a leader in your unit. We saw that. It has nothing to do with rank. So I that's really wonderful that you just said what you just said, by the way. Because there's a lot of people that are in that boat. And uh you recognized it and had the courage to to stand up to it and to tell us about it. I mean, that's great.

SPEAKER_02 46:51

Well, it's it's again, if you don't know that that Peter principle, it's where you've been really good at everything at your organization. So everybody just thinks you'll be good at this other thing that requires a completely different skill set. And they promote you and then you fail. TFOs do that. He was in SWAT, he was in K9, he's a great guy. We love him, we love just put him in there, and then it doesn't work. So I I'm humble enough. I'm okay with that. I don't get my identity out of captain bars or anything else. I get my identity out of helping a young man or a young woman do well in this job and and mentally survive it, right? And and and don't die of a heart attack three years after they get out of you know, retirement. So that's where I I love that. I love the idea. There's nothing I love more than sitting there tonight working with a great TFO turning orbits over Dallas, and this guy is killing it. He's just TFOing, and it's a beautiful thing to see. That's my identity. That's that's what I like.

SPEAKER_06 47:51

So Yeah, what I I love about the the both of you is is through your personalities, your classes, and everything else, your leadership skills have transcended your agency, right? They've impacted operations on a global level, whether it's personal operations or as Harold described, operations within a national level, police agency. You know, that's that's impressive. That's something that most people can't say. You know, that's something I think most people should should should strive for and want to achieve in their in their career and in their life, is the the enrichment and development of folks that you care about in a in a profession that you care about, you know, and and our profession is is a noble profession. So um on that I I realize time is short. I want to close out just by thanking you guys for being who you are, for for the passion you have for the industry, uh, for the desire to do something bigger than yourselves throughout your whole lives. You know, you guys have dedicated your your life and career uh to the betterment of of our society. You know, we talk about the the noble profession that we've chosen uh is as tarnished as politicians try and make it, it's an amazing career, you know, and the impact and and ability we have to to touch people's lives in a in a positive way is is profound. You know, so uh thank you guys for for that, for for what you've done for me, both of you. Uh look forward to being with you guys at at Echo. Uh breaking bread is always uh one of the best parts of any experience with you guys. Uh having some some some cold ones together will be nice as well. Uh for our listeners, hope to see uh a good number of you there. This will be an impactful class, one you don't want to miss. I guarantee that. Uh so with that, I'll I'll hand it over to you guys for closing thoughts. Clay, I'll go to you and then and then Jack will close out with you.

SPEAKER_02 49:36

Just just the last thing I want to say is John, and and then when we go through all these things, you tend to you tend to fall off to the side, and I don't like it. And where I'm going with that is you have created an exceptional situation starting the Hanger Z podcast and what that's grown into. Mike Reno coming in and supporting this and and building it out further. I'm not going to speak for Jack, but I 100% you have exponentially done more for this industry than I have ever done in teaching a bunch of classes. And it's because you've brought some incredible people together. You've you've you've opened up a network for young people to get information that we never had. We don't have to wait around for a quarterly magazine anymore. We can get we can get real with with the authors. So I just want to close with, because you always do it, you always deflect to the guests, and now Jack's on board with you as well. So Jack as well, but hats off to you and what you've done in building this, and it just continues to grow. I'm I'm thankful to be a part of it. I'm thankful to be your friend. Um, and I'm real proud of you.

SPEAKER_06 50:45

Thanks, Clay. Yeah, your your friendship means the world to me. As as Jack talked about through your guys' instruction, I think the connections that you make as as you go along that that path is the most important thing, and and your guys' friendship means more than anything, right? So appreciate your kind words and and and what you do. Jack?

SPEAKER_03 51:03

Wow. That just shows you how much Clay and I are alike. He just has a better voice than me. Man, oh man. It's so true what you just said, Clay. Thank you for jumping that because I was gonna say something s very similar. John is our, Clay, I'm speaking for you and I now. John is our bigger biggest supporter. I mean, he he just is, he has been for a long time. Since and I we both appreciate it. And so thanks for thinking to do this, and thanks for all the support and the kind words that you've had, and for creating the hanger's E. Uh, I am so proud to be a part of this. And uh and I'm so glad that you uh created it and ran with it when people were just going, yeah, whatever. Yeah, because have fun with that, John, and look where it is. And Mike saw it, and Mike's a visionary in many ways. I mean, Mike doesn't uh jump on every opportunity, he he picks and chooses, he knows what's good, and he saw what you did and ran with it too. So um, well done. Thanks for all the kind words. Thanks for putting this together. And I'll just end by saying uh I really appreciate everything that both of you have said uh about me earlier and about the class and all that. It means the world to me. Night, it's nearly 19,000 people attended my class over 26 years. And the only reason I know that number is because of John Gray. He he was making fun of me that I didn't know the number. And I'm like, dude, I didn't think there was gonna be 50 people, okay? Just so you know, when I started teaching this, I mean, Rick Lowen, I owe him everything. Chris Warren for pushing me to write the book, so many people that supported me. But my point is, I didn't think this would go anywhere. And then at the end of the day, John goes, Well, you should know that number. I went back through records and I guessed, and I was very conservative, and I came up with 18,000, and since then it's been another thousand. So 19,000 people that I had attended the class makes me feel really good, really good. And I'm I'm thankful for all of it. And uh to Kyle Schoberg and Mark Redlich from Shots Fire Training Group, I I'm gonna support you in every way to keep this alive, keep it going in any way you can because it's uh it's worth the class is worth keeping alive, and it doesn't has nothing to do with me, it has to do with the information, and uh and I'm confident they will. But uh John, thanks for all the opportunities, appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 53:38

Oh my. So that guy on the left there, that was the I remember that guy. It was a year after your first class.

SPEAKER_03 53:45

So I just I remember that guy coming up to me and saying, Hey, can I ask y'all a question? And I'm like, You sure you surely can, young man. And the rest is history, ladies and gentlemen.

SPEAKER_06 53:58

That's it.

SPEAKER_03 53:59

God bless America. I love it.

SPEAKER_06 54:01

I'll say relates to what you just brought up. Clay, I won't put you on the spot and ask you how many students you've had, but think about it, and and we'll talk about it at a different time. But if out of 19,000 students, only one person was apprehended as a result of your class, which we know that number is is that's not realistic, right? If only one person was apprehended, that's 19,000 folks were put in prison because of your action as an instructor. That's that's pretty impactful, right? But Clay, we'll come back to you and think about that, you know, and talk about that at a future time.

SPEAKER_02 54:31

Sounds good.

SPEAKER_06 54:32

Yeah, wild. So uh on that, look forward to seeing you guys in Philadelphia. Uh so we'll uh we'll close out and catch us next time on the Hanger Z podcast. Thanks for joining us for this episode of the Hanger Z Podcast. Don't forget to like and subscribe to hear more stories that promote the personnel and equipment behind the missions in public safety aviation. Lastly, stand by for a message after work from our sponsors. Cheers.

SPEAKER_04 54:57

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SPEAKER_06 55:41

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SPEAKER_04 56:00

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