Prepare to step into the ring with returning guest ez from the EZ Sports Podcast as we uncork a few and exchange swings over one of boxing's greatest puzzles—the "Phantom Punch." With a glass in hand, we revisit the legendary Ali vs. Liston bout, scrutinizing the knockout that left the sports world in a daze. Was Ali's punch really that phantom-like? ez isn't pulling any punches with his take on the fight's spectacle and the ensuing legacy that continues to shadow both Ali and Liston.
But there's more to a fighter than the blows he delivers or absorbs, and Sonny Liston's life story is as complex as the conspiracies that follow his name. From a childhood marred by abuse to a career intertwined with the mob, Liston's journey from the canvas to the grave is a tale of power, fear, and suspicion. Our conversation walks you through the dark alleys of Liston's past, exposing the societal battles that shadowed his every step and the enigmatic circumstances surrounding his untimely demise.
As we pour one out for the unanswered questions left in the wake of Liston's mysterious end, we'll navigate through the theories that refuse to rest. The credibility of the official heroin overdose narrative; the unexplained delay in reporting his death; the whispers of mafia involvement—all get tabled as ez shares insights that might just leave you questioning the stories we've been told. Join us for a toast to the unknown and a hearty debate on one of the sport's most enduring conspiracies.
Prepare to step into the ring with returning guest ez from the EZ Sports Podcast as we uncork a few and exchange swings over one of boxing's greatest puzzles—the "Phantom Punch." With a glass in hand, we revisit the legendary Ali vs. Liston bout, scrutinizing the knockout that left the sports world in a daze. Was Ali's punch really that phantom-like? ez isn't pulling any punches with his take on the fight's spectacle and the ensuing legacy that continues to shadow both Ali and Liston.
But there's more to a fighter than the blows he delivers or absorbs, and Sonny Liston's life story is as complex as the conspiracies that follow his name. From a childhood marred by abuse to a career intertwined with the mob, Liston's journey from the canvas to the grave is a tale of power, fear, and suspicion. Our conversation walks you through the dark alleys of Liston's past, exposing the societal battles that shadowed his every step and the enigmatic circumstances surrounding his untimely demise.
As we pour one out for the unanswered questions left in the wake of Liston's mysterious end, we'll navigate through the theories that refuse to rest. The credibility of the official heroin overdose narrative; the unexplained delay in reporting his death; the whispers of mafia involvement—all get tabled as ez shares insights that might just leave you questioning the stories we've been told. Join us for a toast to the unknown and a hearty debate on one of the sport's most enduring conspiracies.
Welcome to Drunk Conspiracies. Welcome back to another episode of Drunk Conspiracies Podcast. Tonight's guest is returning for his second episode, ez, from the EZ Sports Podcast. How are you doing?
Speaker 3:What's up, man? Thanks for having me again.
Speaker 1:Oh, no problem, how have you been?
Speaker 3:Doing good. I'm glad. I'm not actually glad. I was going to say I'm happy that there were no fans in the stands because I didn't have to buy you those tickets to the game I bet you.
Speaker 1:Oh, for sure it was a good fight though tonight, oh.
Speaker 3:It was a good fight though tonight. Oh, yeah, that fight tonight, yeah, that fight tonight was dope. Yeah, I feel bad for my man, curtis Blades. That was not the ending. I'm sure he won.
Speaker 1:Not at all. He was looking for that title fight.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Don't know if it's coming now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it sucks, man, it sucks. It's not really his fault either because, like, the divisions have been so log jammed because the champions only fight like once a year, Right. You would have had a title shot by now. You know it's just kind of fucked, but right, it's a game, but right, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:So what are we drinking tonight?
Speaker 3:Tonight we're sipping on some some easy juice. I got a speakeasy cup. I don't know if you see it, but some whiskey A little bit, some A little bit, some Canadian whiskey. Yeah, hashtag no free sponsors. They're going to have to come holler at me, right.
Speaker 1:For that one. I got to get me a liquor beer sponsor for my show.
Speaker 3:Man, I thought we were going to do liquor again. I wish I would have brought some beer tonight, but I guess we're sticking with whiskey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was like I should probably stick to beer tonight.
Speaker 3:Damn, I'm going to be faded tonight you're good.
Speaker 1:You're good. Uh, I'm drinking, uh, kentucky vanilla barrel beer, uh, out of lexington, kentucky, which, uh, I'm tennessee born and raised, so I usually don't go to kentucky for shit. But uh, it looked good so I was like, why not? But uh, my shot tonight, though, is from gallenberg, tennessee. I got some moonshine, so, uh, okay, so I stuck. Uh, there's the blue, raspberry blue, something that sounds good. It's hard to read the writing. Yeah, so moonshine, real moonshine is yeah I mean, uh, the store-bought stuff.
Speaker 1:I mean not so much it's like, not so much man it's, it's just like any other liquor really. But you get down in the hills of Tennessee and get some real shine Gets dangerous, but all right, so let's, we'll do our shots. Cheers.
Speaker 3:Cheers. Last time we were pretty faded.
Speaker 1:We did. I think we started drunk too.
Speaker 3:So I didn't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I drink way too much of that bottle that night.
Speaker 3:Hell yeah, me too, man. I don't think I actually even posted that video to public because I was like, damn bro, I was a little shwayced on that one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because we went for like three hours.
Speaker 3:We went a long ass time and we didn't even talk about the conspiracy until the end of the fucking like we talked about like a total of maybe 10 minutes of the actual conspiracy, but we did keep it sports-related. Yeah, we did keep it sports-related, bro. We can go wherever you want this to go, bro, if you want to talk about COVID, if you want to talk about fucking Kony 2016,. Whatever that was back, then we can talk about whatever all right.
Speaker 1:Well, we actually got quite a bit to talk about for this conspiracy. So, uh, it'll be pretty, pretty consuming. Let's get it so tonight, conspiracy is the phantom punch. For the people out there who don't know what the phantom punch is or don't follow boxing, it's probably one of the most controversial fights in boxing history between muhammad ali, but at the time was still clashes clay and sunny liston. I mean, you see, you said you don't know that much about the, the phantom punch yes, yes.
Speaker 3:So today was the first, I'm sure I've heard about it and I just rushed over it, breezed over it, because my reaction to it today was like that's, that's a knockout. Well, I mean, what do you mean? I'm saying?
Speaker 1:I wouldn't say a knockout. Um, we'll, we'll give our we'll, we'll give our opinions clearly, but uh, I mean there's a, there's a lot to say about it, but uh, just uh. So before we really jump into the whole conspiracy, I mean this is mostly about Sonny Liston. I mean, muhammad Ali obviously plays a part in the Phantom Punch, but we're going to be talking about the Phantom Punch itself and the mysteries surrounding Sonny Liston's death, because to this day they have a final ruling but it's still unknown. Really Like no one believes the final ruling.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so what's going on with that?
Speaker 1:So they believe it was an accidental heroin overdose. That's what they ruled it. Oh shit, but like we'll cover it later on, so I won't ruin too much of it right now. But it's hard to believe that it was a heroin overdose for a few reasons and I'll get into those later. But yeah, no, no one really believes it. But Las Vegas police ruled it as a overdose. Because part of another conspiracy is that the, the Las Vegas Police Department, covered up the death. The real reason, yo let's get into it.
Speaker 3:I want to know it's crazy.
Speaker 1:It's crazy and uh, there's actually a movie called phantom punch. What that's uh yeah, it's pretty old, uh, maybe 90s, maybe early 2000s um based off this yeah, yeah, and it has.
Speaker 1:Um, what's that guy's name? Uh, he passed away. Uh, ving rams, ving rhymes, ving, no fucking clue. You, you would know him if you saw him. But uh, yeah, he, he plays sunny list in a great movie, phenomenal movie, and uh, actually just re-watched it today. Just be, just because we were doing this tonight, I was. It's been a minute since I've seen the movie. So, yeah, definitely check it out. I watched it on what's that? Tubby TV or Tubby TV? However you pronounce it, it's like an app. Yeah, I have a Fire Stick so you can get different apps, but it's like Tubbycom or Tubby TV. It's spelled T-U-B-I, dot com. Or Tubi TV. It's spelled T-U-B-I. They do commercials in it, but it's only like 30, 40 second commercials. It's not a big deal. But yeah, for anyone listening, if you want a good movie and just actually see what we're talking about tonight, I highly recommend that movie. It's a great movie. You want a shot? That was the last of my shot.
Speaker 3:I highly recommend that movie.
Speaker 1:It's a great movie. You want to open a shot that?
Speaker 2:was the last of my shot I might have something.
Speaker 1:Hold on, but I'll tell you what. If you want to take another shot, I just opened this beer, so I will chug this beer and you take a shot. All right, I'm down for that. All right, let's do it Ready.
Speaker 3:Yeah, all right, I almost almost started chugging that because you were chugging that, so I felt like obligated to.
Speaker 1:I realized like, yeah, don't pass out. Don't pass out on me tonight oh, no, babe I had someone do that on the show. No, yeah, I never put, I never posted the episode. Uh, I thought I thought about it it was a dude in north carolina. He's a stand-up comedian. Uh, he talks about conspiracies. If he listens to this, like nothing against you, man, it was a good episode.
Speaker 1:But like I got him, I like I kind of need an ending to it yeah uh, we, we were 10 minutes away from finishing the episode 10 minutes and uh, he did tell me like he had been drinking at a family event, like earlier in the evening. So by the time we jumped on he was already really drunk. But um, yeah, man, we're like 10 minutes from wrapping. I'm giving like my final thoughts and like I see him like zoning out and I'm just like I'm like bro, you good, and like he'd open his eyes. He's like, yeah, I'm here, and like he'd start talking, and then, like I went in the last time to give my final thoughts and shit, he's just out, he's just hunched over. I'm looking at him. I'm like, bro, bro, I'm like you good, nothing. I was like this motherfucker. I'm like we're 10 minutes from wrapping, he's out. I didn't even end, I just like X'd out of the Interview and shit. So I don't have an ending to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I thought about going back and editing it, just like that last part and just Closing, cause, like you know, I like to get like the final thoughts On the conspiracy from both sides, but I wasn't able to do that Cause he was out. And then, uh, he, he messaged me the next day and he he's like, hey man, uh, he's like, did I black out? I'm like, yeah, I was like like 10 minutes away from wrapping the episode. He's like, oh, my bad. He's like it's not the first time I've done that and I was like what? I was just like, come on, man.
Speaker 3:It was wild for that one.
Speaker 1:It was. I thought about just airing the episode anyways, but just adding the ending myself. I don't know the episode's about the pedophiles in Hollywood, like the elites and all the pedo. It was, it was, it was, it was good episode up until the last 10 minutes. Like I was just like I was, like man, what the fuck. So uh, yeah, if you're watching live you can see. You see the fan of punch.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so why? Why is this a fan of punch Cause? To me this looks like a clear as day connected. Yes.
Speaker 1:So as you're watching, I know a lot of like. If you're listening on my end, like when I released the episode, you obviously can't see what we're talking about. But you see Sonny Liston coming in for the punch and Ali like doing his defensive head, bobbing like he does. He he's basically baiting Sonny Liston to come in and that's when Ali strikes. Everyone knows that's, that's Ali's move, ali's honestly and everyone knows this. If you watch boxing and shit, ali's not a like a puncher, he's not a knockout guy.
Speaker 2:I mean he does have.
Speaker 1:He does have knockouts. I will say but he's. And if, even if you ask professional, like boxers or boxing people in general, ali's not like, not, he's not a puncher. So as you're watching it, you see liston like go in and ali does connect. Everyone knows ali connects. There's some people out there who doesn't think he connects just because it's so quick and he goes down. Ali does connect with that anchor punch, but it's not a knockout punch, especially on Sonny Liston, and I got facts to throw out here to prove that that's not a knockout punch on a guy of Sonny Liston's stature. It's just not.
Speaker 3:But it happens though. It don't matter who you are. That button gets pressed. You go to sleep.
Speaker 1:Not necessarily, not in this case.
Speaker 3:Especially so clean. He's lunging. And then you see his body. The people who said it didn't connect, they're 100% right Because you see his lat muscles. The punch connects, you can see the ripple. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a quick little punch because it's just an anchor punch, but you see it connect and you see his head react. Sonny Liston's head reacts to the punch. Yeah, it is a punch, it's not a knockout punch because, he went down after that it's.
Speaker 3:I mean it could be a knockout punch, though, like it's not, it's not like it's. That's easy, you know I'm saying it's one shot, it's a.
Speaker 1:That's why, when they go head to a fight, they say it's a puncher's chance, because it's like any punch, any punch, especially a heavyweight, any punch can be true, and I get what you're saying, but the the information I will give to you as we, as we go down it like it's it's not a knockout punch on a guy like sonny liston, it's not late I don't, and and I'm I'm just gonna throw this out there and I'm gonna. I said what I said ollie's not the greatest boxer of all time oh shit he's.
Speaker 1:He's not the goat so this is.
Speaker 3:This is why it's not an echo punch to you no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:I give I have.
Speaker 3:No, I see that I give credit.
Speaker 1:When do I do, even if I hate the person? Like, say, lebron james, fucking hate, hate LeBron James. Is he a great fucking basketball player? Yes, like he he's good. Do I think he's a little bitch because he likes to flop and like all this bullshit? Yeah, he's a little bitch, but I've also never liked LeBron James. I was a Mellow fan when they were drafted. I was team Mellow overBron. So I've never liked LeBron James, especially him being a Cleveland Cavalier and me being a Pistons fan.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like you don't like LeBron, I do not like LeBron, but I give credit when due and he is a great player, but he's not better than Jordan. Anyways, ali, to me, ali's a phenomenal fighter, definitely top three of all time. To me, ali's a phenomenal fighter, definitely top three of all time. Honestly, he's just a good fighter, even though he wasn't a puncher, like a lot of people say. He wasn't a hitter. He has phenomenal defense and he can fucking bob and weave like no other, but he's not the greatest boxer of all time in my opinion, my opinion. I'm probably biased, just because he is my favorite boxer of all time, but it's rocky marciano wow 49 and 0.
Speaker 1:Never lost a fight, retired undefeated. Uh, he, he's just a bad dude and if you've never watched any of his fights, go to youtube or wherever you can watch box, old boxing, boxing matches. He was like the. You know how in the Rocky movies he gets the shit beat out of them, but always comes back and wins.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:That's Rocky Marciano. He took beatings in every match but he always won because he'd come back and beat the living shit out of that person. He retired 49-0, undefeated.
Speaker 3:Onepride40 from YouTube asks us about football. I'm going to tell him it's about the Phantom Punch. But this is a fucking punch bro. That's a KO bro.
Speaker 1:Oh man, all right, we'll start getting into the facts of why no one believes it's a KO, and I'm even going to convince you that it is not a ko I love I don't know, you're saying it's, you're saying that is a knockout punch. Yes, I am going to convince you to change your mind to where you, to where you at will at least question it. I'm down, all right, let's get in it, you ready?
Speaker 1:yes all right. So so a little early information, because we are talking mostly about sunny liston in this episode. Sunny liston was born may 8th in 1930 to 32. They actually do not have an official birth date or year for Sonny Liston.
Speaker 3:That's crazy.
Speaker 1:It is crazy. He was born in Sandal I believe it's called pronounced Laos like Sandal, arkansas. It's a small poor area in Little Rock, arkansas, and that's where he was born. He is actually number 24 of 25 children.
Speaker 3:God damn.
Speaker 1:His dad had 25 children with two women. So between two women his father fathered 25 children. That's crazy. I thought my dad has eight kids with five different women. I thought that was crazy. You have 25 children between two women. That's insane. That's nuts yeah and, uh, his father actually hated him why, he just I don't. I could. I probably could have looked more into the reasons why, but I didn't because there's just so much information that we're going to cover tonight. But but he actually did?
Speaker 3:He couldn't admit getting knocked out. He made a conspiracy.
Speaker 1:No, no, no. Sonny Liston's mom moved to St Louis when he was a child. She abandoned her family and kids. He was left with his dad. His dad would beat him on a daily basis, just beat the living shit out of him. He just hated his son for some reason of him, and just he just hated his son for some reason. But, um, sonny Liston, as he got a little older, finally got tired of all the bullshit with his dad and he moved to St Louis to be with his mom. So he he found his mom, moved to St Louis and stayed with his mom for a while.
Speaker 1:He started getting trouble with the law. Um, from a very early age he was like he was started getting in trouble with the law. Um, from a very early age he was like he was like getting in trouble in trouble at the law, like looking after him and shit like that. He's just a bad kid getting in fights and shit like that. And then, um, as he got a little bit older, he was arrested for attempted robbery on a gas station and, uh, they charged him with two counts of attempted robbery and he was sent to like two years in prison.
Speaker 1:So while he was in prison he met a catholic priest who got him into boxing. This priest taught him boxing and so, while he was in prison, sonny liston was boxing other prisoners because it was a sanctioned thing in the prisons. And um, sonny Lister was like knocking everyone out, just like being a living shit out of them, and uh, so he he was like I got a natural, natural act for fighting and boxing. So after, after he was released from prison, he he stayed in St Louis and uh to for his boxing career. After he got out, he trained and stuff like that. He ended up beating. He started doing amateur boxing like you do, because you don't go straight into the pros.
Speaker 1:You got to pay your dues and shit. But he started knocking out the top-rated amateur boxers. So he had, he had a career in boxing, so he had a manager. But he kept getting in trouble with the law. And the law was like after him, yeah, cause they, they knew of his criminal record and they, big black guy in St Louis, said, like in the like, early fifties and sixties, you know. So, like the like, the police would actually like, harass him and like in like, provoke him to act out so they could arrest him I believe it.
Speaker 1:They did a lot yeah yeah, especially back in the 50s and 60s, to a black man, you know what I mean, yeah so he he was, uh, he was provoked one night and he got arrested and and the cops were actually beating him in the cell, Tied him up, they were beating him and the police chief came in and he told Sonny, he's like look, you need to leave St Louis and never come back or I will kill you. The chief of police was telling him to listen to this. He would kill I think I actually remember hearing that, about that if he, if he never left, if he didn't leave st louis.
Speaker 1:So he got the hell out of st louis and he went to philadelphia. Once he got to philadelphia, he, he, he got more, he got another manager. But the the start of everything is the managers who he bought out his contract from his manager. He had a manager in St Louis. When he went to Philadelphia, he got set up with the mafia and the mafia are the ones who actually bought out his contract from his manager in St Louis. So once he got to Philly, he was instantly connected to the mob with his fighting career. The mob actually used to use him to collect debts Because I mean Sonny Liston if you look at Sonny Liston, he's a big dude, like big scary, knows how to fight.
Speaker 1:So when the mafia buys out his contract to manage him in his boxing career, they also used him to collect on debts of people who wouldn't pay dates and Sonny and like you see Sonny listening coming at you to collect money, you're going to fucking pay Like, like he's a. He's a big scary dude and uh, even throughout his boxing career like he, he scared everybody. Uh, throughout his boxing career like he, he scared everybody. Uh, george foreman went on record. Uh, they interviewed george foreman and uh, george said that sonny listen was the only man who ever stood up to him. He's, he's like no one would ever stand up to me except for sonny listen. And that's from one of the greatest boxers of all time too, george, george foreman. So so like, yeah, so like. Once he, he, once he. Once he got to Philly, he got associated with the Mafia. They managed his career. Then he started boxing again for the Mafia. He went. What was his total record? He fought Ali twice. Are you getting comments in here?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we got some.
Speaker 1:Is there any way you can put them?
Speaker 3:Yes, someone said let's fucking go. Earlier, someone asked if this is about football, what's wrong with this?
Speaker 1:Yeah, sorry bro, it's not football related.
Speaker 3:It's not football related.
Speaker 1:I don't know if my homie's listening in right now. I sent him the link and everything. If my boy Dale is listening back in Tennessee. Thanks for supporting he's one of my best friends, man. We've been buddies since we were kids. He's actually I'm going to throw a plug out for him just because I love him so much and he's my boy, but he's an up-and-coming rapper in Nashville. Okay, I love him so much and he's my boy, but he's an up and coming rapper In Nashville. So my listeners, eazy's listeners, anyone who's Following right now. I think he's on Apple Music too, but I know he's on Spotify. Willie Falk, aka Dapper Rapper Dan. Check him out, man. His music's good. Check out the song Vandal. Uh, my favorite song by him is true freshman and um, he actually did a song called will smith before joiner. Did it? Who?
Speaker 3:you know, you know how joiner has that song. Will smith, don't lie, who's better? My boys quit lying for real no, yeah, hell yeah you're a good friend.
Speaker 1:I may be biased, but he, he's been. We've been boys since the fifth grade, since fifth grade. So we were, how old were we in fifth grade?
Speaker 1:like 10, 11 yeah yeah, we're 30 now god damn like I like, check out, check out woolly folk on apple spotify I'm not sure what else is. If he's on here, comment, dude, and tell people where they can find you, just. But. But I had to shout him out because I know I know he wanted to listen tonight, so I sent him a link. So if he's watching live, still awesome. If not, I'm still putting it out there for my listeners and your listeners to check out his music, because he does go hard. He's been doing it since we were kids and nothing but love. But, yeah, check out vandal, true freshman and will smith. But, um, he has another song before you could fly. That's probably my second favorite of his. But uh, yeah, dude, he super talented up and coming in the nashville area and uh, he's actually getting married in October, so I'll be down in Nashville for that. Can't wait for that. I had to throw a plug in for him because it's my homie.
Speaker 3:Shameless plug. Look how buff this referee is, bro. Right, you see that too. I'm like what the fuck.
Speaker 1:That's a big ass ref. He's bigger than Ali and Sonny Liston.
Speaker 3:I wasn't going to say it, but yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:I'll say it I don't give a fuck. He's bigger than both of them.
Speaker 3:Not combined, but Definitely bigger than Liston Ali might have got some height.
Speaker 1:See, Ali was never really. In my opinion, Ali was never really big and super buff. Sonny Liston was.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Say this is 6'1", 220. Ali's like what? 6'3", 6'4" 6'4".
Speaker 1:He was 6'4". Yeah, Liston was 6'1", like 218, 220. And then Ali was 6'4", but I can't remember his weight.
Speaker 3:I can look it up here in a minute.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't remember the weight, but I know he was like I'm pretty sure he was 6'4".
Speaker 3:These pictures, for like black and white photos, are actually pretty clear, right.
Speaker 1:Yes, but yeah, but all right. So anyways, jumping back into it. They actually fought twice, sonny Liston and Ali. They fought back back. The first fight. Sonny Liston and Ali actually went all 15 rounds or 12 rounds. They went the distance in that fight and this is where I'll start to get into the theories of why I believe it wasn't a knockout punch. So Sonny Liston and Ali, when they fought the first time, went the distance, they went all rounds and sunny listen fall, ali on a bum shoulder like sunny listen shoulder was like bum. And then he also did not really train for the fight because, well, not no, he just didn't think ali was a real contender.
Speaker 3:So you listen with the champion that Ali developed from correct.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yeah. So because and this I'll jump into it early Iconic photo that is like the most iconic photo of like boxing history and that was.
Speaker 3:I'm not talking about history, man, like it's crazy.
Speaker 1:But that was the man. Like it's crazy, yeah, but that that would. That was the phantom punch photo. But, um, yeah, uh, sunny liston fought floyd patterson for the belt. Yeah, and uh, I like to do fun facts in my episodes, so here's my fun fact for this episode. It's uh, it's kind of jumping ahead, but we'll get back into it and everything like that. But, um, sonny Liston's uh manager, who was connected with the mafia because when he went to Philly he got associated with them his mafia boss told Sonny Liston's manager to have Sonny Liston dive the Patterson fight. They did not want Sonny Liston to win and he gave him like $10,000 or plus more dollars to put on Patterson to beat Liston because they were going to have him take a dive. So they were like it's a for sure win. Sonny Liston's manager didn't put the money on Floyd Patterson. It never told Sonny Liston to take a dive and instead he put the money on Liston but he never told the mafia people that he did that.
Speaker 1:So the manager is not part of the mafia, he was just he was connected in the mafia too, but he he mostly just managed Liston but he worked for it. He wasn't like a high up in the mafia but he was like an associate to the mafia.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Sonny Liston's ways were on point, by the way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sonny Liston was a bad dude. But so when Sonny's manager didn't put the money on Floyd Patterson to win and put it on Liston to win, and then Liston didn't throw the fight, the mafia people never knew that. So they thought that Sonny just didn't obey their demand to dive and they lost all that money. So they actually put a hit out on Sonny Liston's manager to have him killed. So they actually put a hit out on Sonny Liston's manager to have him killed. And then he flew back into Philly, I believe, and he was met by some mafia people and they were like trying to get him to come with them. And then, like his manager was like catching on to be like yo, I'm about to be fucking whacked by the mafia. So he he calls the main boss and tells the boss like he's like look, I never put the money on patterson. He's like I put the money on, uh, liston to win. So he won, like I I want to say it was like a million million plus bucks or something like that, or maybe not a million. He, he won a lot of money for betting on liston because Liston was, I believe, the underdog in that fight. Okay, so once the mafia boss found out that, oh, I won all this money he caught off the hit on Liston's manager through the phone to the guys who were going to kill him and shit like that. So that kind of ties into like the whole, the whole mafia thing. But that's, that's just a little fun fact because we really don't get into the, the floyd um, floyd and sunny fight that much. Um, but yeah, that was just a little fun fact because that fight happened before he.
Speaker 1:He fought ali and so uh, and so getting back into it in the Ali and Liston fight the first one, they go the distance. They fight all 15 rounds. They fought and they went the distance and that was with Sonny having the bum shoulder, like I said, and not even training for the fight because he didn't think of Even though Ali was undefeated. He didn't think of Ali as he wasn't scared of Ali. So they go all 12 rounds. Ali ends up winning by decision. So Ali did win the first fight between them. So not even a year later I'm pretty sure it was within the same year they fought again back-to-back. So it was Clash of Clans and Sunny List in part two. One minute and 44 seconds into the first round is when the knockout occurs. So no one believed it. When Ali threw the punch that knocked him down and this is where I'm going to make you question if it was actually a knockout or not when Ali connects with that punch, liston goes down. You see Ali like over him right now, like screaming at him, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm going to give you a quote of what ali was screaming at sunny liston come get up and and I quote he's like get up you, yellow bum, no one's going to believe you and that that's that's. That's a straight quote from ali to listen as listens laying on the ground that no one's gonna believe him, that that was a knockout. It it's even said to believe that, uh, when he was down on the ground, ali looked to his, his team, and be like did I even hit him? Like ali couldn't even believe that he knocked him out on that punch who was the underdog?
Speaker 3:who was the favorite?
Speaker 1:uh was. I think ali was still the underdog.
Speaker 3:Can you see that I put the fight on?
Speaker 1:Ah shit, I know I looked it up, but I've been drinking. I don't think I wrote it down.
Speaker 3:You've been drinking.
Speaker 1:No, but yeah, but shit, anyways, yeah. So Muhammad Ali didn't even believe he knocked him out with that punch. So like, I don't, like even the guy who was in the ring who landed the punch is even saying, like yo, that I didn't even knock you out with that punch yeah he's saying this then like what's?
Speaker 1:why is the rest of the world supposed to believe that he knocked him out with that punch and like he. So Sonny Liston, in his whole career, was knocked down three times out of 54 fights he was. He was only knocked down three times and that's that's one of them. One of the other ones was early on in his career and then the other one was like a little bit later on in his career but so knocked out of 54 fights he's only been knocked down three times and he has a granite jaw. Like you could punch him in his jaw and he's not going to fucking feel it.
Speaker 1:Like Sonny Liston has a strong jaw. So for that that, because he does like, as you can watch, he connects on the punch. But to knock out, let alone knock down, sonny Liston for that punch, it's not believable. People like professional boxers and announcers who believe sunny took a dive in that fight and uh, we'll, we'll get into that too, but um, but for like it's, it's he, he connects on the punch it's just hard to believe that that was a knockout punch someone.
Speaker 1:The way he goes down is weird too right, like as you keep watching it, it crawls down. Because, look at, that wasn't someone who just got knocked out, because you can see him leaning up after falling. That's not someone who just got knocked out. And to only be knocked out of 54 fights and only being knocked down three times.
Speaker 3:When was the third time?
Speaker 1:It was. It was later on in his career, I believe. Um, I forgot the guy's name, but uh, I think he actually still ended up winning that fight because at this time, like um, we really don't know how how old Sonny listen is at this time because they don't have an official birth year, so a lot of people seem to believe that he was just. They're like, well, maybe he was washed up, maybe he was old washed up. That's not the case, because after this fight he went 16 and won in five years.
Speaker 3:Okay, I was gonna say, yeah, this was about that, or fights to have after 17 fights, lost one of them in one 16.
Speaker 1:After 17 fights, lost one of them in one, 16, including his last. His very last fight was against chuck wepner, who the movie rocky is based off of what for real?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, chuck, chuck wepner is the, the sole uh character of the rocky franchise and sunny liston beat him, beat the shit out of him. But, um, so, yeah, so, so clearly, liston wasn't washed up going 16 and 1, you know, after fighting Ali. But, um, yeah, it's, I don't know, for me it's just it's. It's hard to believe that that would. That was a knockout punch and, uh, I do, he does connect with it, but I don't think you're knocking out Sonny Liston with that punch. So, with me giving you those facts and of what Ali was even saying, what's your opinion of that punch now? Do you really think it was a knockout punch?
Speaker 3:I think it could have been. I think it definitely makes it still up in the air. I'm going to look at some of the names after Ali, some German guy, amos Johnson, dave Bailey, elmer Rush, bill McMurray I'm trying to look for another name that would have been like one you'd expect to knock him down or out.
Speaker 1:Right, and there's no one really.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But in 54 fights he was only knocked down three three times.
Speaker 3:Let's see how many ms so so you're telling me that small little anchor punch by ali knocked him out in the first round at a minute 44 seconds yeah I, I don't believe it, yeah, and I and like I'm like all new to this too right, right, yeah, so uh, definitely a little out of it too, and yeah and, and I'll give you the conspiracies behind it too but uh yeah, so uh, yeah it's.
Speaker 1:It's hard to believe that so is.
Speaker 3:Ali wasn't a puncher like and I agree to what you're saying like he was, he was more of like a death by a thousand cuts type of boxer. A lot of ko's on his record still right.
Speaker 1:But I believe at the time of that fight or the first fight, ollie only had like 19 knockouts. Sunny, listen, had like 24 um which I mean that. I mean that's just saying they're, they're knockouts. But you saw the punch Like it wasn't a heavy punch, it wasn't a hard punch, it really wasn't, it was a little anchor punch.
Speaker 3:A little beat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's no way that is knocking him out, especially with a man of the jaw of Sonny Liston, because Sonny Liston had a fucking strong jaw, because he was a big dude, he had a granite jaw. He was a big dude, he had a granite jaw. There was. There was no way that that small little punch was knocking him out yeah, definitely uh just my opinion, obviously, but the same opinion as many boxing professionals too. But like I, just I just I don't see it yeah it's there's no way, there's no way.
Speaker 1:But uh, but getting into the conspiracies about the Phantom Punch, there's mainly two conspiracies. The first one is the mob made him take a dive, which I mean very well could have been being so connected with the mob, and anyone who's ever watched boxing, especially back in that day, knows the game was rigged. I mean, it's well known that people threw fights for money and shit like that, so it is believed that the mafia made him take a dive for that fight. The second conspiracy behind the Phantom Punch was that the black Muslims made him take a dive, because everyone knows Ali was Muslim, like a conformed Muslim. It's rumored that the black Muslims kidnapped Sonny Liston's wife, geraldine and their child and held them hostage and told Sonny Liston's wife, geraldine and their child and held them hostage and told Sonny Liston, be like, you have to lose this fight so Ali, who is a Muslim, can win the fight. And Sonny Liston was a prideful dude, he wasn't just going to throw a fight for any reason, because, like back in the Floyd Patter patterson match, he didn't throw that fight.
Speaker 3:He basically told me the message for him to throw it either, right and he I think he did I messed up.
Speaker 1:I think he did deliver it to um sunny, but he never told the mafia. The manager never told the mafia that he wasn't going to throw the fight. So the mafia thought that he was putting the money on patterson and that patterson't going to throw the fight. So the mafia thought that he was putting the money on patterson and that patterson was going to win and sony was going to take the dive. But I, I could be wrong. But either either way, even if he told him or not, he or did tell him and just didn't take the dive. Sonny liston wasn't good. Either way, sonny listen wasn't going to take a dive on the floyd patterson match because he, because he wanted to be champion, he had too much pride.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So he beat Patterson, got the belt, became champion, ended up losing at two clashes Clay, but yeah.
Speaker 3:So this is the initial Islam thing and, granted, this is Wikipedia. But several weeks before the fight, the Miami Herald published an article quoting Cassius Clay Sr as saying that his son had joined the black Muslims when he was 18. They've been hammering at ever since. Clay Sr said he's so confused now that he doesn't even know where he's at, said his youngest son, Rudy Clay, who also joined. They ruined my two boys. Clay Sr said Muslims tell my boys to hate white people, to hate women, to hate their mother. Clay Jr responded by saying I don't care what my father said. I'm here training for a fight. I'm looking for the kidnapping shit dog. Where's that? As the story began to spread, promoters became increasingly uneasy. Bill McDonnell, to me, I'm sorry. I was going to say something about the kidnapping, because that's why I Googled search, but I didn't, so I apologize.
Speaker 1:I apologize.
Speaker 3:There should have been something about that. No, there was some years yeah right.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, but the black Muslims apparently kidnapped Sonny Liston's wife, geraldine, and their child, held them hostage and demanded that Sonny Liston throw the fight in order to save his family, and so that's what people believe that he actually did was throw the fight, whether it was because of the mafia or his family was actually kidnapped Because there was.
Speaker 3:I think I believe more so that the mafia than the kidnapping.
Speaker 1:Maybe there there was a, there was a close family, friend of.
Speaker 1:Sonny Liston and his wife. His name was Paul Gallander. Yeah, I want to say I was going to say a different last name around the same name, but it was Paul Gallander who came out and said that they were friends with Liston and his wife and I guess his wife was trying to get, they were trying to get ahold of Sonny Liston's wife and no one could reach them. No one could find them. And then I guess his wife found out that the muslims were doing this and actually actually told paul that they were being held hostage until after the fight to see if listen would actually throw the fight. So I mean, I don't know. Uh, I'm kind of torn in the middle with that conspiracy, whether it was the mafia or the black Muslims, because, especially with all that like what you read too, like the Muslims actually like clearly had their own motives and shit like that, especially with Ali coming out and saying like they ruined his son's life, his son's like life. So why wouldn't they go kidnap someone to make them take a dive for a?
Speaker 3:muslim fighter to become like the champion. Yeah, the thing and the reason why I think, like, if anyone's the mafia is like, okay, like this guy has ties to the mafia, if the muslims are telling him, like we can have his wife, like you, either one which I get, he probably wouldn't want to go to the authorities because of his history of police and whatnot, but like you, probably you probably wouldn't want to go to the authorities because of his history of police and whatnot, but like you probably want to go to the authorities or you got a whole fucking gang of mafiosos behind you too. You know what I'm saying, right? I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 1:So yeah, definitely with that one. I'm kind of torn on. If I believe that the mafia, Regardless, I do believe Sonny Liston took a dive in that fight, I do not. I fully, with every fiber of my being, do not believe that Muhammad Ali knocked him out in that punch. I do not believe it.
Speaker 3:Yeah man, I wish I did more fucking.
Speaker 1:Because you're starting to question it now, right A little bit yeah. I told you he connected on that punch. I will give ollie that he did hit him, but there's no way that sunny listing couldn't make it to a 10 count and get up from that punch yeah, there's no way.
Speaker 3:There's no way that early into a fight too, like like I'm in at 44, it's a first round knockout. Typically it's like you've been knocked down once already or you're just out, and that was the case.
Speaker 1:No, because even when Liston goes down he hits the canvas. You see him kind of like reach up and then he just kind of lays back down Like it wasn't like a clear knockout. In my opinion you could tell that Sonny Liston was like conscious and knew what the fuck was happening and going on.
Speaker 3:there's no reason he couldn't have gotten up who's the guy who used to train uh, mike tyson, after his original trainer died, teddy atlas teddy atlas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he might I mean, but just my opinion, like, regardless of whether I believe it was the black Muslims or the mafia who made him take a dive, I 100 percent believe Sonny Liston took a dive in that fight, whether it was his wife and kid were kidnapped or the mafia was going to kill him.
Speaker 3:I'm not mad at you for it. I mean, I can totally get how you come to that. This is on the Joe Rogan podcast. You care if I play it? No, go ahead. This is, I come to that. This is on the Joe Rogan podcast.
Speaker 1:You care if I play it? No, go ahead.
Speaker 3:This is. I have no clues who this is, but Steve Sweeney. But, I remember when I'm old enough to remember when Cassius Clay beat Sonny Lewiston.
Speaker 2:Yeah, beat him twice, it was like eight to one. That was another fight where a lot of people thought it was fixed. The second fight, the second fight, Lewiston the hidden punch.
Speaker 2:Well, you could see the punch. They called it a phantom punch. You could see the punch, but it was like he called it an anchor punch. As Liston was coming forward. He dropped it down on him like that and a lot of people say it didn't land, but you could see his head react. It definitely landed. The question was whether or not he decided to stay down once he got hit, and I think he did. If you watch, it just doesn't look realistic, like if you watch when he goes down. The way he went down seemed maybe legit, but the way he stumbled around he didn't stumble around like a guy whose central nervous system got jacked. Here we'll watch it right here. Oh my God, 1965, baby.
Speaker 1:Wow, what a great producer you've got.
Speaker 3:He's the best.
Speaker 2:Watch this. Look at this Bank. See that's a real punch 100%. And him dropping is real too. There's no doubt about it. The question was whether that was enough to take him out. Look at that Bank.
Speaker 3:The other thing too.
Speaker 2:Watch the case, see if you can find the knockaway.
Speaker 3:He looked out of it. He didn't want to be there too. Him dropping him. I don't watch fights. Afterwards he stumbled around In Khali's corner.
Speaker 1:he's jumping around and he's kind of just like there. We just had it there. Like you said, how he looked like he didn't want to be there.
Speaker 2:That, looks like Kevin Spacey.
Speaker 1:They said that he did take the dive, but he took it on his own terms.
Speaker 2:Here's the punch Boom, Now watch he goes down. And he, but he took it on his own terms. Here's the punch Boom, Now watch he goes down. And he just sort of laid down on his back and then he kind of stumbled around.
Speaker 3:Maybe he told himself he acted like he couldn't get up.
Speaker 1:If this guy drops me they just keep showing it over and over again. It was 100% a legitimate punch. But if he doesn't, I'm going to win this fight.
Speaker 2:They've get ko'd and all sorts of ways. It doesn't really make sense, like it's a human being getting punched in the face. Weird shit happens, especially you get punched on the jaw, that's why I was originally people get touched with like a jab sometimes and they go out. Yeah, it doesn't make sense and also sometimes, here it is. It's also sometimes it's weird because, uh, you might have gotten hurt real bad in training. So a lot of guys come into these fights and they're already injured.
Speaker 3:I don't want to hear it, yeah.
Speaker 1:But no, back to what you were saying. It looked like he wasn't really in the fight. There were articles and other people who were saying that yes, Sonny Liston took a dive, but he did it on his own terms. He was supposed to go like two or three rounds before taking the dive, but sunny listen said if I'm gonna do this, I'm doing it on my own terms yeah so that's why they believe he went down with a minute 44.
Speaker 1:A minute 44 into the first round is because he was just like fuck it, I don't, I don't care, like I'm taking a dive, I'm gonna do it now it's definitely like selfish of me, but like, what a fucking like I just I'm, I'm angry that I guess that shit went on.
Speaker 3:Because, I'd like to know. I'm saying like is Ali as great as? I mean obviously Ali's great right. But like if Sonny Liston possibly took a dive and lost the decision in the first fight, like why the? It's just fucking annoying man.
Speaker 1:Right and I'm going to give my boxing opinion on this. Like I said, the first fight they went all 15 rounds. It went to decision. Sonny Liston had a bad shoulder in that fight and he did not train for that fight and he still went all 15 rounds with Muhammad Ali. They fought a couple months later and Sonny Liston goes down a minute 44 into the first round.
Speaker 3:And that was something I was going to say, because what they fought, like six months later, five months later, yeah right, it wasn't even a year, it was like five or six months. Yeah, it's a quick turnaround. That's some shit.
Speaker 1:I don't believe it One bit. In my opinion, Sonny Liston would have beaten Ali Like a healthy Ali versus a healthy Sonny Liston. Sonny Liston would have been Ali. Yes, that's my opinion, but if both fighters were healthy, Sonny Liston would have been Ali.
Speaker 3:I was going to say it was a quick turnaround, but it was actually a little over a year later.
Speaker 1:Was it? I thought it was the same year.
Speaker 3:I thought it was too, but February 25th was the original one, right, I thought it was the same year. I thought it was too, but uh, february 25th was the original one and right, and then it was uh may 25th 1965 oh, it was 64, wasn't it?
Speaker 3:so I can't even say the excuse or use the excuse that you know, because you know you get knocked out or you know the fight and it's a rough fight. You put on medical suspensions nowadays. Right, I was gonna say maybe it was like a like one of those type situations, but it's not.
Speaker 1:It was over a year later yeah, no, I thought I thought it was february of 65. Yeah, so it was 64, so okay, so a little over a year, but still, I mean it was back to back neither one of those fighters fought anyone else.
Speaker 3:That's even more so towards the conspiracy argument, you know right his chin.
Speaker 1:He had time to train exactly and sonny listen had a strong chin.
Speaker 3:He was a big dude. Well, I, I just I'm so lost why this isn't such like a more uh, a bigger topic and it is in the boxing world yeah, what's it? But like, come on, teddy, atlas is a whole fucking podcast. How come this isn't like talked about? True, like that's one of the most iconic photos of a combat sports history? It is. It is the most iconic photo of a combat sports history. I couldn't tell you.
Speaker 1:I remember as a child seeing that poster.
Speaker 3:You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Everywhere. That is probably the most iconic photo in sports combat ever. Absolutely that was the Phantom Punch.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and for the Phantom Punch to be a thing, for it to be known that he was in trouble in and out of the ring, how it's not touched on more. I don't know if the Italian mob is that fucking clean.
Speaker 1:Right, I mean they might be. I mean you know they're connected. So I mean I guess. So man Shit God damn it you know they're connected, so I mean I guess so shit. But but yeah, you, you would. You would think it would be talked about more. Um, I know about it because I'm a. I'm a boxer myself. I love boxing, I I prefer boxing over every other combat sport. I watch other combat sports. I love watching it, like the ufc, like the bare knuckle I got into bare knuckle recently. How do?
Speaker 3:you feel about it?
Speaker 1:I love it, dude, it's fucking crazy yeah. From my other podcast, I interviewed Joe Elmore. He actually has a fight coming up in March for the championship in his weight class.
Speaker 3:Good shit.
Speaker 1:I interviewed him on my other podcast. Fucking cool dude, super cool, his first win in the bare knuckle. He, he knocked the dude out in like 52 seconds, fucking sick knockout. But like, yeah, dude, like I love combat sports and shit like that, but I I always stay true to true to boxing. Just because I I liked boxing, like I don't know if you can see it, but I have a boxing tattoo, I got my gloves.
Speaker 1:But so, like, if you're not big into conspiracies or the sport, you probably won't hear about it too much. But like, if you look into sports conspiracies, that's always like, top of the list is the Phantom Punch and I think it should be talked about more, but it's not. But like it's, it's, it's crazy. But uh, I 100 believe sunny listen took a dive in that fight, whether it was mafia related or muslim related, he took a dive, he didn't. He didn't lose that fight straight up. There's no way. I can't hear you, man, my bad camera, yeah, yeah, yeah, I would say like it's just annoying because like it's one of the most iconic moments in like combat sports history.
Speaker 3:And there's no way I can't hear you, man, my bad camera, no, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I would say like it's just annoying because like it's one of the most iconic moments in like combat sports history and there's not more right you. You would think there would be a lot more on it, but yeah, there really there, really isn't, it's annoying but yeah, especially with that photo, because that that is the, that that well, the most iconic moments in it is the most iconic moment in combat sports history.
Speaker 1:Right, because for a little bit, have you ever been to Great Lakes Crossing Mall?
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:Do you remember when the Palace locker room was there?
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 1:Because the Pistons used to play at the Palace. They had their own store at the Great.
Speaker 3:Lakes Crossing, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I worked there for a little bit.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:And we had popular memorabilia like photos and shit like that. That was one that we actually had that photo in the store.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like. It's like everyone, even if you don't watch boxing.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You've seen that photo.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, absolutely. Anytime they talk about Ali in the news it's like one of those ones you know they'll zoom in fucking shots and shit, like that's the photo, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but what's crazy about it like what you're saying, is because it's not more talked about is because everyone sees Muhammad Ali is the greatest boxer to ever live no, fuck that though, bro.
Speaker 3:What the fuck man that.
Speaker 1:That's what I'm saying. But they, they, they think ali is the greatest boxer alive, so they just see that, that picture of him knocking another dude out cold, but they don't actually know the history behind that photo. They just see an iconic photo of Ali yelling and flexing on someone he just knocked out, without them actually knowing the history behind the match or the two people in the picture. They just see Ali and that's what they go by.
Speaker 3:Can you hear me? Yeah now don't. I wonder if there's any film where we can actually hear ali saying what you haven't quoted as saying right, tell them to get to get up.
Speaker 1:That no one's going to believe them yeah yeah, I don't know if there's any audio of it. Um, I know it's on record by a couple different people saying that he actually said that and then him even saying to like his his people in his corner asking he's like did I even hit him? Did I even connect with that punch?
Speaker 3:so which which that part I could see, because I I've seen that happen just like, because it was so quick. Yeah, you know, I'm saying, even though people like whoa because in the moment you're just fucking, if you're like whoa because in the moment you're just fucking fighting, you're like whoa, what the fuck right what punch actually did you know? I'm saying but like right the rook is like where's my fucking bowl right now?
Speaker 1:bro, I'm trying, I'm listening what you're gonna say now you're uh like, even even on tonight's fight with the ufc, the, the derrick lewis fight, uh, as I was watching it the first time he connected with the uppercut, I had to wait for the replay Because I was like what the fuck just happened, even though I'm watching it, it happened so fast, with Blades trying to go in with the fucking takedown and then Lewis coming up with the uppercut. It happened. It just happened so quick you know what?
Speaker 1:the fuck because, like I'm, I'm sitting. I was sitting on the couch watching it on my laptop next to my wife. She was watching our tv, so I was watching on her laptop, my laptop and I was just like, oh my god was like what the fuck just happened, and so I had to watch the replay. Like anything in combat sports can happen so fast.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that is what happened in this fight and that's what brought in the conspiracies. Did Ali actually connect with the punch? Did it knock him out? I 100% believe that the punch connected.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The punch for sure connected.
Speaker 3:I mean, you saw his fucking body ripple.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I also 100% believe that that was not a knockout punch. There was no way Sonny Liston was getting knocked out by that punch, for a 10 count yeah, there's no way he could have easily gotten up. I see what you do.
Speaker 3:I see what you do. You get us drunk enough to to agree with you on these fucking. I see what you're doing here, exactly no that's my point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but but no, I do believe that punch probably could have knocked him down, but I do not believe that that was a 10 count out there was. There's no way that referee could have counted to 10 without sunny list and being able to actually stand up.
Speaker 3:He was yeah, he was. Yeah, he was conscious. He's absolutely conscious in the ground.
Speaker 1:He wasn't out cold he was even in the.
Speaker 3:He was still looking up and shit.
Speaker 1:I'm saying like right and in the joe rogan video you played, rogan was even like yeah, he, he connected, he went down like it could happen, but he's like. But my question is like was that like a count out?
Speaker 3:there's like joe rogan was even saying like I don't believe that he could not have gotten back up yeah, and when you said that he like took the dive on his own terms, right and him you know, I guess you know being a prideful guy even though he took a dive I got to see a situation where, like, he went to the fight saying I'm gonna fight him but, if he gets me that, that'll be my loss, like to me, and I'll stay down I could, I, yeah, I could definitely see that because, like I said, the fight was supposed to go two or three rounds yeah, because that?
Speaker 3:because that would be easier to accept than fucking like just losing a minute, a minute 44 in exactly I'm saying if you get me, then fuck, all right, fuck, I gotta do this for my family. You got me, it's not going my way. Anyway, let me, just let me get out of here.
Speaker 1:You know, I'm saying but but oh man but someone the size of sunny liston, with with the jaw of Sonny Liston, there's no way that punt that little anchor punch. Yeah, he came down. He came down pretty, pretty hard, but not the. It wasn't. It was not a knockout punch.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It was a, it was a it. In my opinion, it was a little anchor jab.
Speaker 3:And for, like everybody else, to Muhammad Ali's. Muhammad Ali does have have obviously a lot more knockouts in his career, but to go down the list, 12-round knockout. 15-round decision. Six-round knockout. Third-round knockout. 12-round knockout. Third-round knockout, not another. I don't think there's another first-round knockout.
Speaker 1:There's not.
Speaker 3:There's not.
Speaker 1:There's not one other first round knockout that Muhammad Ali put on Anybody.
Speaker 3:And for.
Speaker 1:The one first round knockout To be Sonny Liston.
Speaker 3:No, god damn.
Speaker 1:I feel like I don't even have to Argue it If I tell you, no, it's no.
Speaker 3:If there was at least one more first round, knockout on that list.
Speaker 1:Right, at least maybe one.
Speaker 3:Then I'm like you know no.
Speaker 1:But since there's not, Because what's Ali's record, his overall record?
Speaker 3:His overall record? I don't know. He has five losses. Hold on.
Speaker 1:Five losses. I uh, his overall record is five losses. Hold on five losses. I was gonna say four or five, but how many wins?
Speaker 3:61 win of 56 wins, five losses and you're telling me he did not knock out one person, he had than listen well, he has another knockout, but it's it's fucking some guy named lamarck, like we don't even know who that is, you know early, yeah it was just, it was literally a fixed fight of his career yeah, I don't, I don't really care yeah yeah, no, so yeah, I don't believe that one bit.
Speaker 1:So uh, all right. So so, uh, we're still gonna get into sunny listen's death. But for as far as the phantom punch goes, what's your final take on the punch?
Speaker 3:I hate to fucking admit this yeah yeah, god fuck did?
Speaker 1:did I change your mind?
Speaker 3:fuck you, yeah, fuck you I told you I would I told you I would onto the death.
Speaker 3:I'm pissed that I had to admit that. But yeah, absolutely, I mean if there were, like like you, like we just said, if there was another first round knockout on that list, then maybe it's still in the air, but there's not but yeah, because his his next like farthest knockout was what third round? Uh, yeah, yeah. Next earliest knockout was uh, no and sunny list. Sunny liston was a beast in the heavyweight division I mean, like you said, he only knocked down three times his career.
Speaker 1:That was three times out of his whole career and everybody feared him.
Speaker 3:They called him the heavyweight division, yo fifth right, actually the. Oh no, I'm sorry, I'm third round.
Speaker 1:I apologize oh for ali yeah, yeah, yeah, he had like one or two third, third round knockouts right correct yeah yeah, yeah, but for for someone of's stature, and especially in the heavyweight division, only being knocked down three times and for him to be the only first-round knockout for Ali, there's no way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I wish.
Speaker 1:I had a drum machine. I had a machine man right, oh for sure, that'd probably be one of the top three places I went back to yeah, I would. I wonder how you'd get him to admit it, but I find a way I get him drunk like I am with you I show him yeah, there you go, I show him magic with my smartphone.
Speaker 3:Right, a fucking sorcerer, I'll do everything to your family, right? I'll show them two girls like oh god, here, tell me the truth all right.
Speaker 1:So so you, uh, you want to jump into the conspiracies around his death let's get it all right.
Speaker 1:So conspiracies surrounding sunny listens death, like I mentioned early in the episode, after he, after he fought Ali for the second time, he fought 17 more times, only losing one of those matches. So he went 16-1 in the last five years. So one of the conspiracies is, like I said, the heroin overdose. The only issue with that is being that Sonny Lisson was deadly afraid of needles, like he hated needles Like he, I get. He was supposed to go to Africa and do. He was supposed to go over to Europe or Africa and do something, but he had. They told him he had to get these shots before he could go over there and he refused to do it because he hated needles. He was deadly afraid of needles. So for so for his official death was overdose on heroin, like from needles.
Speaker 1:But his wife, his manager, his trainer, everyone told everybody that he was deadly afraid of needles, that there was no way he was shooting up heroin on his own. And when they found his body there were multiple holes in his arms. But his manager claims that 30 days before his official death that those holes were from shots that he got from being in the hospital. So when the coroner got his body they saw all the holes, hole marks from the needles. But according to his manager, that those holes were actually from 30 days before, when he had a hospital stint, that he was in the hospital. So that one for me personally, I don't believe that it was a heroin overdose. I don't think Sonny Liston would have stuck himself with needles seeing how he was so afraid of needles. I don't believe that one bit. I don't believe that one bit. Also, when they took his body in, the coroner actually said that for a guy of Sonny Liston's size, the amount of heroin in his system would not have killed him. So how can the Las Vegas Police Department rule it an?
Speaker 3:overdose on heroin, when he didn't have enough heroin in his system to actually kill him. Yeah, there's a lot more articles too on conspiracy of his death than the punch which right, I want more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there really is. Because, uh, he died just uh, sonny listen died december 30th 1970, but he wasn't found until January 5th Of 1971. His wife was away for two weeks and she couldn't get a hold of him Over Christmas and New Years and then, when she finally came back in January, she said she came Into the house she could smell Like a foul odor and she just thought Maybe they left out some food or something. And then, uh, they finally went to the master bedroom and that's where she said she found sunny list and like, propped up against the bed. Uh, unresponsive, uh yeah, but another conspiracy about his death is that the wife was behind it, because his wife, geraldine, when she found the body, she didn't call police until two to three hours after she found the body.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it was. There was a two to three hour span between her coming home and finding Sonny's body and then her calling police. Now it's believed that, like, when she found his body she called his doctor and his manager, I believe. But they waited two to three hours to call the police. And then other things that I read is that when the police finally did get there, when they were investigating, they didn't find any needles, they didn't find any spoons to cook the heroin on, and all the LA or the Las Vegas police department said was that it's not uncommon for a family to clean up a little bit to save the embarrassment from the family.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But like and I and I could see that, but at the same time, like, if I walk in and find a loved one fucking dead, with needles and shit everywhere, I'm not going to fucking touch it, I'm going to call the fucking authorities and have them come in.
Speaker 3:That's those guys. I find girls are different. They fucking want to clean up and shit.
Speaker 1:Right, so I could see it. But another one of the last conspiracies surrounding his death is that the mafia was behind his death because, going back to the Clash of Clay and Sonny Liston fight, Sonny Liston was supposed to collect money from taking a dive in the fight. It's said to believe that the Mafia didn't pay him anything for taking the dive, like they said they would.
Speaker 3:Taking his latest dive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, against Clash of Clay. Yeah, so the Phantom Punch punch. He was supposed to get a payday from the mafia for taking a dive for the phantom punch, but the the mafia never paid him, and so sunny sunny liston started demanding that they pay him, or he was going to go public with what really happened I mean, why was it though?
Speaker 3:because, like that, they already got their money right.
Speaker 1:But I mean, if he decided to go public with it being like I was forced to, I mean it. It would bring unnecessary light upon the mafia what year was it they died uh?
Speaker 3:1971, so 70 71 that's what a crazy life.
Speaker 1:Right. And another thing is that it was rumored that he was approached, like two days before the fight against Wepner, to throw that fight as well and he denied throwing the fight Because he was approached two days before the fight with Chuck Wepner and said that he needs to throw the fight and he said he refused to throw the fight because he didn't get paid last time.
Speaker 1:He wanted revenge on it, so he said he refused to do it and went in there and he did. He beat the living shit out of Chuck Wepner. Chuck Wepner needed like 72, 74 stitches after the fight. I'm pretty sure he broke something in Chuck Wepner's face. He beat the shit out of Chuck Wepner and he refused to throw the fight because he was owed money from the last fight and he was doing it.
Speaker 3:as revenge, I'm going to eat my fucking shorts.
Speaker 1:Basically, yeah. So before we wrap things up, your final thought for the death of Sonny Liston Out of the conspiracies I gave you.
Speaker 3:He definitely didn't die from heroin. Okay.
Speaker 1:Why do you say that?
Speaker 3:I think, all things considered, the needle stuff is true With him, you know, not getting paid out if there was a hit or not a hit, but a fix during the last fight and everything else. I mean everything adds up to the conspiracy of his death. For sure I have no trouble believing that one, especially after hearing the conspiracy. I mean, I've already weighed towards the conspiracy on the fight. You know what I'm saying. So I'm definitely weighing on that for his death as well, especially after hearing the doctor said this is enough to kill him, you know.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, my opinion. As far as the conspiracy is about his death goes, I don't think it was suicide. I don't think it was an accidental overdose. I don't think his wife was involved. I 100% believe that he was murdered by the mafia. There's just everything given because his wife, his trainer, everyone, his doctors even said that he would not, he would not touch a needle. So I don't believe he actually overdosed.
Speaker 1:It's, it's believed that there was one. There was another conspiracy that it was. It was drug dealers who had him killed because the night the night he died, he was supposed to be at a popular drug dealer's home in las vegas and they said the police came to listen and be like listen, don't go to that house. Tonight there's going to be a raid. I guess sunny liston did end up going but left early, and after sunny listen left, the drug drug raid happened that night of his death and so it was. So it was rumored to believe that the drug dealers thought that it was Sonny Liston who ratted them out and so, in retaliation, the drug dealers went and killed him no-transcript.
Speaker 1:Because I don't give a fuck if you're in the mafia or if you're a fucking big time drug dealer in las vegas, like if sunny listing is coherent, you're not gonna fuck it, you're, he's gonna fuck you up. Most likely like they're, like I don't believe it one bit. Like he, he will fucking kill you. So it's it's rumored to believe that he he was. He was heavily like, given a lot of alcohol, like super drunk, other drugs, and then that's how they were able to stick him with heroin, even though the amount of heroin wasn't enough to kill him. According to the corners. Um, it was just part of part of the factor of him being left there with all that drugs and then whatever they decided else to do to him. So so my, my, my final opinion though I fucking like life, bro sucks right, yeah, I know the fucking world, bro.
Speaker 1:Then like I guess, and what's even, what's even more sad is like she, uh, she stopped talking about it for a while and then started charging. She's yeah, the wife did and started charging people for interviews because she because after sunny died, she was, she was left with nothing, basically she had no money. So she's, she actually started charging people for interviews so just so she could get some money. And I think that's sad, especially especially with Sonny Liston, like like the record. He like he's one of the greatest heavy. My opinion he's one of the greatest heavyweight boxers of all time.
Speaker 3:The thing, too, with him is like I think this with all the boxers from back then like to have been like where he was, is like a black person back then too, and you were able to become the heavyweight champion of the world at a time where, like you, weren't even allowed to eat in certain places.
Speaker 3:I'm saying like right yeah, more respect for me from there and for that to be like the decline of his life or like where it ended is fucking that sucks yeah, because uh it honestly and all my, for me sunny listen is my third best uh boxer of all time I'm number three.
Speaker 1:Number three for me.
Speaker 3:This is Rocky.
Speaker 1:Rocky Marciano, number one, Manny Pacquiao number two and Sonny Liston at three.
Speaker 3:I wish I knew more about boxing to have a debate on that, but I can't, I don't.
Speaker 1:Final thoughts Phantom Punch and Sonny Liston's death.
Speaker 3:Go. First of all, I'd like to say fuck Justin, Because in the first episode, my appearance, he somehow made me lose a bet or I had to take him to a Lions game.
Speaker 1:You do have to take him to a Lions game.
Speaker 3:And then in the second episode, this motherfucker says I'm going to get you to believe me.
Speaker 1:I should have made another bet with you.
Speaker 3:I'm not going to fucking believe you.
Speaker 1:That another bet with you? I'm not going to fucking believe you. That's a fucking knockout. Here he comes with his fucking. Besides basketball, it's boxing dog, you got me. I told you I would make you double think it.
Speaker 3:I told you.
Speaker 1:How do you think he died though?
Speaker 3:I think, I think I'm pretty fucked up.
Speaker 1:Cheers, me too.
Speaker 3:Conspiracy podcast. I think the mafia. I mean I couldn't tell you exactly how, I can't picture it, I don't do heroin and shit but I think for sure the mafia, if it's true they didn't get paid first thing which. These are all conspiracies, folks. You know what I'm saying? Just theories.
Speaker 1:Yes and no, because there's people behind it who who actually come out and say like he never made any money from throwing that first fight yeah, but like come on now because you, you think if he threw that fight he would have got paid, he would have been able to leave money to his wife they all go broke. My place was broke, yeah, but he died very soon after that fight, his final fight.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So where did his money go? And it was rumored that he did owe money to bookies, that he was a gambler.
Speaker 3:I could see it, so I mean yeah, so, but I don't know.
Speaker 1:For me, the Phantom Punch, Sonny Liston, took a dive on the fight Clash of Clay, Muhammad Ali, whatever you want to call him, he was Clashus Clay at the time. He did not win that fight straight up. Sonny Liston did take a dive, whether it was because of the black Muslims or the mafia, I'm torn in the middle because I could see both happening and because we don't know facts about it. I'm torn in the middle because I could see both happening and because we don't know facts about it. I'm torn in the middle of that, but I do 100% believe he took a dive in that fight. As far as his death goes, I do believe he was murdered by the Mafia. I think the Mafia got to him because he refused to take the dive in his fight against Chuck Wepner and then he seeked out revenge for not being paid for taking the dive against Ali in the second fight, Like he threatened to expose him and go public and they didn't want any of that. So I think they had him killed. So that's my final take. I don't know.
Speaker 3:I appreciate you having me on again, man.
Speaker 1:Dude, of course, anytime. There's plenty of other sports conspiracies we can talk about too we can talk about real conspiracies too, bro whatever you want, I always let the the guest pick, even though I picked this one for us I think it's called it's it's the cia and charles manson oh, there is there. There are conspiracies about that. Yes, you want to do that next.
Speaker 3:I'll be down or we just talk about what was it called? Bk Ultra, 2k Ultra or some shit.
Speaker 1:Oh, the fucking MK Ultra.
Speaker 3:MK.
Speaker 1:Ultra yeah, yeah, yeah, we could do that one, let's do that one. You want to do that one next Hell?
Speaker 3:yeah.
Speaker 1:Shit, let's do it All right. I bet, but, um, yeah, all right, easy. Thanks for coming on. Thank you, Um, I'm glad I could persuade your uh yeah. Your take on this, because I told you I would mind, fucking mind, fucking me every time. I told you I would Um, but no, yeah, man, thanks for coming on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no problem If anybody's checking me out. I'm here over at Woodward Sports Speak easy, speak easy sports. I mean honestly, just go to my YouTube. You'll get links to my Spotify and shit like that too, but the merch will be under Woodward Sports and at some point I may be under. I am under Woodward Sports, but I'm an actual network with a daily show.
Speaker 1:That's the goal to get big enough to be able to do that. Check me out there. Yeah, congrats on signing with a network man.
Speaker 3:Thank you, man. If we get some plugs on Lions tickets, I have to take your ass now.
Speaker 1:You do. You owe me a Lions game.
Speaker 3:I know.
Speaker 1:We'll end the episode.