The 5 Strategic Mistakes Still Holding Back HMO Investors in 2025

Struggling to Get Your HMO Business Off the Ground? You're Not Alone...

In this episode, we’re tackling some of the biggest challenges investors face when trying to grow their HMO businesses. If you’re finding it hard to build momentum, if costs are rising, timelines are stretching, and the numbers just don’t look as promising as you expected—this one’s for you.

I’ll be breaking down the five most common strategic mistakes that I see time and time again, which could be holding you back from the success you’re aiming for. More importantly, I’ll be sharing practical solutions to help you overcome these challenges and move forward with clarity and confidence.

Whether you’re just starting out or looking to scale, don’t miss this honest and insightful discussion designed to help you build the HMO business you really want—faster and more effectively.

Topics covered in this episode:

• 01:27 - The Five Strategic Mistakes in HMO Investing
• 03:35 - Chasing Unicorn Deals
• 11:17 - Underestimating Pre-Commencement Costs
• 16:24 - Outsourcing Without Understanding
• 19:47 - Not Playing the Numbers Game
• 22:16 - Wasting Visibility Opportunities

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Transcript

Andy Graham (00:02.67)

Hey, I'm Andy and you're listening to the HMO Podcast. Over 10 years ago, I set myself the challenge of building my own property portfolio. And what began as a short-term investment plan soon became a long-term commitment to change the way young people live together. I've now built several successful businesses. I've raised millions of pounds of investment and I've managed thousands of tenants. Join me and some very special guests to discover the tips, tricks and hacks.

the ups and the downs, the best practice and everything else you need to know to start, scale and systemise your very own HMO portfolio now.

Andy Graham (00:40.756)

Are you struggling to get your HMO business off the ground? And you find it difficult to get the momentum, that flight you need to scale your business up? Does everything seem to cost more and take longer? Perhaps the numbers just don't look as good as you thought they would do. Well, trust me, if any of this resonates with you, then you're not alone. It's a difficult landscape at the minute. It's tough for investors like you and I. But there are five strategic mistakes that I'm seeing so many investors make, and this is holding them back.

The good news is, if you know what these are, there are some solutions. And today I want to discuss them. I want to give you those solutions and want to help you build the business that you want and do it more quickly. Please sit back, relax and enjoy today's episode of the HMO Podcast.

Hey guys, it's Andy here. We're going to be getting back to the podcast in just a moment, but before we do, I want to tell you very quickly about the HMO roadmap. Now, if you're serious about replacing your income, or perhaps you've already got a HMO portfolio that you want to scale up, then the HMO roadmap really is your one-stop shop. Inside the roadmap, you'll find a full 60 lesson course delivered by me, teaching you how to find more deals, how to fund more deals and raise private finance, how to refurbish great properties, how to fill them with great tenants that stay for longer, and how to manage your properties and tenants for the future. 

We've also got guest workshops added every single month. We've got new videos added every single week about all sorts of topics. We've got downloadable resources, cheat sheets and swipe files to help you. We've got case studies from guests and community members who are doing incredible projects that you can learn from. And we've also built an application just for you that allows you to appraise and evaluate your deals, stack them side by side and track the key metrics that are most important to you. To find out more, head to theHMOroadmap.co.uk now and come and join our incredible community of HMO property investors.

Andy Graham (02:37.571)

OK, welcome back. So today I want to discuss the five strategic mistakes that I believe are holding so many people back from building the property business that they really want right now. I am getting messages and emails and contact from so many people at the minute that are struggling to get their HMO business off the ground, that are struggling to get flight to scale it up, struggling to make deals work, struggling on timelines, struggling on pretty much everything.

And going round and round in circles and getting very frustrated and spending a lot of money and a lot of time and wondering whether or not this is all just a bit of a waste. And today I'm here to tell you first and foremost that it's not, but I'm here to make a bit of a deal with you. Before we get into today's episode, I want to make a bit of a deal with you. I want you guys to kind of meet me halfway on this stuff. 

In today's episode, I'm going to point out stuff that already exists. And to be honest, I think you probably have recognised some of this in your own journey already, but I can't fix all of this problem for you. You guys are going to have to meet me halfway on this sort of stuff. I'm going to help point it out. I'm going to help with the solutions, but you guys are going to have to do something about this. This will all make sense as we progress through today's episode, but unfortunately I haven't got a magic trick or a rabbit to pull out the hat here for you. What I have got are really good solutions and some honest and sometimes hard to swallow advice, but I promise if you take the medicine. It will help. So you're probably wondering what on earth are we going to talk about? 

This is not rocket science in today's episode. It's just really important fundamentals of building property, a real estate business. And you guys are going to have to participate. You're goingt to have to do your bit as well. And sometimes that is easier said than done. So here's how we're going to do it today. There are five strategic mistakes. We're going to walk through these. We're going to discuss them. We're going to find solutions. Hopefully you're going to go away and find a way to get better results. 

We're going to start with what I think is the single biggest mistake I see people investors making and that is that they are chasing unicorns. The benchmark of the good deal has become the unicorn. And there's a big misunderstanding about both what a unicorn is or what a good deal really should be. But more importantly, what it really takes to deliver a unicorn. So first of all, let's set the scene. What is a unicorn? Other than a beautiful mythical creature, of course,

Andy Graham (05:03.419)

Unicorn deal in the HMO world is the sort of deal that you perhaps find dead easy off market. Maybe you use a hundred percent investor finance to buy and build and develop. You add a ton of value, you refinance and get all of that money back and pay your investors back. This all happens really quick. It flies through planning and the build phase at the backend. You've got loads of rooms. You ram the tenants in, they start paying full occupancy and after all of your bills, including the mortgage repayment, which of course will be off the back of a commercial yield, you're making an absolute ton of money every single month. You know, that's a unicorn deal. They're not a myth. Unicorn deals do exist. I've seen loads. I've done a few myself over the years. But what it really takes to deliver is the very difficult pill to swallow. Usually you need more capital than you expect to do a unicorn deal.

Because the sort of deal that is just lying around that has got the opportunity to add loads of value to, and potentially could be a great HMO and is in a great location with a really great demand. That sort of thing is often attractive to other investors as well. And to buy a property like that, it's usually quite competitive. And then to spend what you need to add all of that value and add pure space. So extensions and conversions and lofts and all of that stuff.

It usually does require quite a lot of capital, even in lower value locations. So let's just take the Northwest, for example, where you might buy a property for 200,000. You can buy them less, you can buy them more, but we're not talking about spending half a million in and around London. Maybe buy for a couple of hundred thousand. You might well need to spend a hundred, 150,000 on just the refurbishment to then add a good chunk of capital value. By the time you've paid stamp duty and all of your costs, you know, you're in for 200, 300, 150 on the refurb, that's 350, stamp duty could be 20 grand fees. You could easily be in for 350,000 quid. 

And you may be able to get that from an investor. You may need an investor. You may need a combination of your funds, an investor and a bank. There's all sorts of scenarios, but one way or another, let's not beat around the bush. That is a lot of capital. So it is a challenge if you are at the early stage of your journey and you have a limited amount of capital.

Andy Graham (07:29.37)

Let's just be honest about it. It is really, really difficult. So those sorts of deals where that sort of opportunity is available within the context of the deal, that can be difficult. And if your benchmark is that sort of project, a unicorn where you can add all of that value, you are immediately setting the bench incredibly high, possibly too high. What you usually need is better contacts, a better build team, better brokers, better agents, people who can bring you the deals, the sorts of contacts and relationships that if you are at that early stage in business, you probably haven't developed yet. 

You probably also need good operational awareness, technical experience and skill sort of stuff that comes with time. And you probably need, in all honesty, a bit of good luck and timing in the market. Opportunity meets preparation. That's what good luck is, OK? And if you're at the early stage, it can be difficult just walking into the market for the first, second or third time. If you haven't got people out there flying your flag, bringing you stuff, it can be really, really difficult. 

So I just want to be super honest about what is involved in actually catching a unicorn. And it's easier to do that once you've been in the market for a few years, because you're just in a better position to take advantage of stuff coming your way. If you set that benchmark really high, if you're chasing that unicorn from day dot, you are going to find it really difficult. So my advice is reduce your expectations, because if you wait, for that unicorn, there's a good chance you'll go around and around and around and around and around. 

And I've seen people going around for years and eventually giving up because they conclude that it's just too difficult. It doesn't exist. They get very frustrated. They spend lots of money, lots of time. They frustrate lots of people along the way because they do lots of viewings and make offers, maybe pull out, all sorts of stuff. And that is just not the way to do it. And look, the truth is social media has distorted these highlight reels showing big ROIs, no stress deals. It's just not the reality. It's certainly not the reality every time. Now what you don't get there is the capital that got stuck in the deal, the delays, the burnout, the challenges with the projects and on site. You don't get all of that stuff. So please be aware that if you are chasing a unicorn, a really, really, really good deal and you're finding it difficult to find it, it's probably not that there's anything wrong with the market or you.

Andy Graham (09:52.316)

It’s probably that your expectations are just simply too high at the minute. My advice would be to reduce your expectations, get into the market, it's the best place you can be. Nobody wants to be sat on the bench and just accept a little bit less for a little bit longer. When I first started, I had no expectations on any of this stuff. I certainly had no expectations about refinancing money out of the deal. And yes, I'm 20 years on now and retrospect makes everything a little bit easier.

But it worked and it didn't just work for me. It worked for hundreds and thousands of investors up and down the country. So you have to give yourself a little bit more flexibility. Give yourself a bit of a break. Just if you have to reduce your expectations a little bit. Look, unicorns are great. If you see one, try and get it. But don't spend all of your time pursuing a unicorn. Just try and find a really good, decent deal. And if you want to know what a good deal is, today's not the episode for it, but I've done podcasts on this before. We've got a full masterclass inside the HMO roadmap on this. Make sure you understand what a good deal looks like because we don't have to pursue unicorns every time. So it's the first big strategic mistake I see holding people back. And I want you to avoid making that mistake. Okay. 

The second big strategic mistake I see people making is that they underestimate how much time and what it might cost in the pre-commencement phase of a deal. So delays don't start when the bill does. They start well before they start before completion. The reality is that if you think that completion of a deal is kind of when you start on site, you are going to be in for a world of pain. There's about three to six months of pre-construction admin. Once you've bought a project before you really get started. 

Now, there's a bit of a spectrum there. It's not the case for every single deal, but generally speaking, you know, there can easily be three to six months. And by the way, there can be way more if it needs planning. Most people miss that there is more time and conveyancing and more due diligence that needs to be done. So set your expectations a little bit lower on that stuff. The time taken to shortlist and tender for contractors can be and actually should be significant.

Andy Graham (12:10.726)

I recently recorded a podcast about trying to get the best contracts and set the best possible prices. There is a process that process doesn't happen overnight. You need to invest that time into it and the earlier you start that process the better but trust me It will take a long time if you want to find the right contract at the right price. People will also miss the time and the cost to carry out feasibility studies. This is when we perhaps go to our architects like Andrew and Mary and say hey guys look at this property, It's a great floor plan, but what can we do with it? How can we optimize this? How many rooms do you think we can get out of? What's the best way of reconfiguring this space? That can take a bit of time. You need to look at different options and there are different things to consider. If you're considering converting a loft, you're probably going to need a measured survey of that loft to know whether or not there's appropriate head height in there. If you're thinking about dividing one room into two, well, you've really got to be careful. You need space to get into both bedrooms. 

You're going to need to make sure windows are in the right place. If you want on suites, you got to think about that. You might need to start thinking about where your weights go and how are you going to get that out of the house and into the trains? All these things take a bit of time and a good feasibility starts to think about all of this stuff. The last thing you want to do is do this after you buy the property because at that point it's too late. If you're struggling and there isn't a way to really optimize your scheme, then you may have bought a bit of a turkey. What else do people miss? Well, they miss the time and the cost to prepare the detailed drawings and the plans that you need to submit for planning permission. And they overlook how long it might take to get planning approval. 

So all of that, you just taking measured drawings and feasibility options and then getting it prepared into a detail pack just to give your contractor so your contractor knows what the M&E plans look like and what are the regularization drawings, the building controls, all of this stuff. There's so much work involved and it will take your professional team a lot of time to get this stuff together and you've got to factor all of that in. 

What else do people miss? They miss the time that it takes to prepare and actually negotiate on contract documents. Like JCT contracts, if you've got a contractor that you want to appoint to a job. They also perhaps overlook the time that it might take before contractors can actually start on site. So all of these things that I've just highlighted, and by the way, this is just a few, these are pre-commencement considerations. There's a cost to them.

Andy Graham (14:36.314)

And it can be quite expensive depending on the scheme. And I haven't even mentioned things like consultants and things that you might need if you're actually submitting a full planning application and the complexities involved with that. But seriously, the time and the cost involved in doing all of this and the coordination and the fact that a lot of this stuff relies on something being done before it. Those pre-commencement considerations are significant and can easily take three to six months, but trust me, I mean.

If you're in planning, you could be up to 18 months on some schemes if you've got to go to appeal even longer. Loads of hidden costs in there, professional fees, there's loads of additional risks while you're sitting on a building while all this is happening. There's the risk of break-ins, empty sites are just attractive to the wrong people. If you're sitting on a site and nothing's happening, well, everything's taking a bit longer. By the time you come out of your deal, the market might have changed. The interest rates could be worse. The value could be different.

There's just lots of risk as well involved in things taking longer. And you need to make sure that you are condensing these pre-commencement considerations as small as possible and ideally doing them as early as possible in the program, in the life cycle of your deal. But just trust me, this is costing so many people so much money in time and actual cost because they just don't know it. And a lot of people come to me and ask questions in the community.

They're trying to figure this stuff out as they go. And can you imagine how difficult it might be to appoint a main contractor if, for example, you haven't even done a feasibility study, let alone got any detailed drawings to give them of the M&E and the kind of building control drawings for the loft conversion, all of that stuff. There's a lot to think about. There is a process. Again, all of this stuff is inside the HMO roadmap. Go and check it out. If you haven't, you need to know this stuff, but don't underestimate what is involved here.

Moving on then, the third big strategic mistake I see so many people making is that they are trying to outsource what they don't understand. They're trying to go hands off before they even know how to be hands on. Look, there's a myth that hiring a sourcer or a project manager or a local agent will solve all of your problems. And just believing that someone else will protect your interests as a priority, your assets, your budget, your timelines, it's just foolhardy.

Andy Graham (16:53.872)

You really have to understand everything that's involved, even if you aren't going to be the person that necessarily manages the process. Honestly, I said there's going to be some tough pills to swallow in today's episode. And this is one of them. If you are prepared to educate yourself on everything that's involved so that you can manage the people that you are ultimately going to outsource stuff to, it's lazy. You're going to end up spending more money, wasting a lot of time and potentially owning a really bad investment deal. Make sure that isn't the case. Don't do that. 

So if you're at the early stages just struggling to get off the ground because you're not finding off deals, but you're relying on sources to bring you deals and agents, it's not going to work. You have to be proactive. Roll your sleeves up, get out, get on the ground and walk the streets. Make it happen. You have to prize it open. I did it. The most successful people I've worked in with in this industry have done that as well. You really have to make things happen. Don't outsource stuff.

Don’t try and be two hands off before you get hands on. Otherwise you'll give people poor briefs and you'll get poor results of result. People will work to their standard because you haven't set them one. And it's just an unquantifiable risk of wasted time and money. And there's very little benefit to you when you then come to do subsequent projects in the future, because you haven't rolled your sleeves and got involved and actually figured out what's really involved. And look, the reason this ultimately doesn't work, people struggle to get their business off the ground is because they end up misjudging deals. They spend more money, set the wrong expectations, end up maybe even buying the wrong types of property that doesn't fit their strategy. Potentially end up with non-compliant deals due to a lack of licensing, maybe things like fire safety and planning awareness. They end up with voids or unlettable units because it's been poorly laid out. There's a poor spec that the tenants are not being managed well. The budget will probably go over because there's not enough accountability.

Contract mismanagement leads to delays, disputes, poor finishes. Might even end up with legal issues because you've got poorly structured contracts, maybe actually issues with the property. This could damage your reputation, could damage the reputation of investors. Certainly going to upset investors if you owe them money. If you've got a business partner, this is not going to be good for that. Just compliance voids, budgets, all of that stuff risks going wrong if you try and outsource this stuff before you don't understand it and don't understand how to control it.

Andy Graham (19:18.578)

So please, please, please to correct this mistake, really invest in your knowledge and your experience. And if you're worried about any of this stuff, find somebody, a mentor, someone who can guide you through the process. You can hold your hand and just make sure that you're doing it all the right way. And even if it takes a bit longer, but you do it the right way. Trust me, that is the right way. The fourth big strategic mistake, then let's move on. A lot of people are just not playing the numbers game. What do I mean here? 

Well, I see so many people going to view one deal, maybe another deal the following week, and it's just not enough. They're just not playing the numbers game. It's a rookie approach, one deal at a time and spending hours and hours of due diligence on the first thing that looks promising. And I'm sure if you're a relatively new investor, you can probably relate to this. Just pouring hours into one deal to then eventually find it doesn't work for whatever reason. And then going right back to scratch, starting again.

Why does this fail? Well, it's because most deals in all honesty don't convert and without a pipeline, you simply don't have a fallback. So what do you need? You need a deal funnel. You need to get offers out. You need to get viewings booked. You need to get your followups scheduled and you need to treat sourcing a bit more like lead generation. You've got to play that numbers game. If you build a sourcing system, put it in something like a CRM, track it, measure it, find ways to improve it, set yourself KPIs.

How many offers have succeeded? How many offers have been rejected and why get that feedback? And, you know, have you followed up with a call after a week, after four weeks, after 12 weeks? I can't tell you how many of the best deals I have done that originally either didn't work for me, I got rejected, I didn't even maybe put an offer in, but I pipelined, I followed up. Maybe they came back to me. The very best deals I've ever done, both asset owned and my lease deals in my rent to rent business before I sold all of my Investment Management Group, they all came from pipelined deals, things that didn't look great on the day, but over time, with a bit of the market doing its thing and lenders' expectations, or sellers' expectations coming down, I got a fantastic deal. And you need to make sure you're doing the same. 

The fifth and final point I want to talk to you about today, the last strategic mistake that I see so many people making is that they are wasting the opportunity of the visibility.

Andy Graham (21:46.522)

You're doing all of this work, finding deals, going through hopefully the process of doing feasibilities and maybe applying for planning permission and meeting and speaking to contractors and designing schemes and putting your CRM systems together and doing viewings and all of that stuff. And this is just great stuff for your visibility. And why is visibility good? Well, because it helps you build trust and credibility and it gets investors attention. And why is this important? Because, no matter how much money you've got today, you will run out. 

Assuming you want to build a portfolio of assets that can replace your income, retire you and beyond that give you a great life to do the things that you want on your terms and have the freedom and flexibility to enjoy it all. You need a decent sized portfolio. And unless you have got several million quid sat in the bank right now, you are going to run out of money because as we've already established today, if the benchmark is unicorn deals, it's just not going to work. You're not going to find unicorn deals every time. So you have to reduce your expectations. You have to work a little bit harder and it might take a little bit longer, but ultimately you are going to leave some money in deals and you are going to run out of capital. And that is why building your credibility and trust and your reputation and getting the attention of investors is such a great thing because when you need money and you may not need capital from private investors today, you might not need it for a year or two or three years, but trust me when you need it.

You will be so grateful if you started that process of sharing your work and being visible in what you're doing today. The best time to plant that seed is today. Trust me, it's very hard to wind the clock back. And honestly, investors aren't really that bothered about the odd picture that you share of a finished project. Investors buy into people. People buy into people.

The process, the journey, the story, that is what people love. Just pick up your phone, record the story, say it as you see it. Just be honest, be you. I promise you that will get the best possible results. And I've said it so many times on the pod before, but you just never know who is looking, who's listening. I've had so many people reach out over the years, people that you wouldn't have had a clue, people that you just never would have expected to be following you, like professional athletes and just

Andy Graham (24:06.488)

all sorts of stuff. So please, please, please put the effort into building that visibility. It'll develop investor confidence. Like I said, credibility, authority, your professional reputation. It'll bring opportunities your way. And it's a great way of leveraging the activity that you're doing now and the efforts that you're putting in now. Visibility will compound over time. It'll help you build a brand that investors trust. It's dead easy to share your processes, your photos, videos, lessons, site visits, key decisions, the costs, learnings.

Talk about your approach, not just your wins, the good, the bad, and everything and all of that stuff will culminate in more people looking and paying attention to what you're doing. And that is a good thing. Now I get it. The common objection at this stage, if you are early stage in this journey, is that you don't want to be an influencer. Perhaps you're uncomfortable behind the camera. I totally get that. Maybe you just don't want to do that sort of stuff.

But if you are going to rely on private finance to build the business or rather, if you're just going to rely on finance to build the property business that you want, then this is almost a non-negotiable for me. You would have to have a very compelling argument to not want to do this. What would such a compelling argument be? Well, perhaps you would be legally conflicted if you did this because you have a job that doesn't allow you to do this or something like that. But other than that, feeling uncomfortable?

It’s just not a good enough excuse. If you're not prepared to get into that uncomfortable zone, maybe embarrass yourself. Maybe your friends will take a bit of a dig at you. If you're not prepared to do this for yourself, then why should anyone be prepared to give you money? Get out there, do it, roll your sleeves up. Just get over it. Trust me, it gets easier and just be you. There's nothing wrong with that. And that's the best stuff you could possibly produce from a content perspective. 

So just get out there, show that you're active, share the process, share the journey, and keep yourself and hold yourself accountable to that process. So look, you're already doing the work. Visibility is just making that work, work harder. 

So there we are guys. Those are the five strategic mistakes that I think are holding so many people back. Let's just recap very quickly. The first big mistake is that too many people are chasing unicorns. Unicorns are beautiful, they're great, but it's a benchmark that is incredibly

Andy Graham (26:31.521)

difficult to hit especially as a new investor or an early stage investor. So please if you can reduce your expectations a little bit spend a little bit longer to get where you want to but most importantly just get started and go and recap get inside the HMO roadmap recap and what a good deal really looks like because there is a bit of a skew when you look on social media.

The second big strategic mistake that I see so many people making that is holding them back is that they are underestimating the pre-commencement times and costs, everything that it takes to get a project ready to actually start and get guys on the site. It can take a long time and it can cost a lot of money and that can be very frustrating and it can completely skew a timeline that you may have set yourself to achieve some goals this year or next year.

So make sure you understand it and make sure you really commit to getting everything that you need done in the right way in an appropriate timeframe. But there is a process. The third big strategic mistake I see people making that's really holding them back is that they are outsourcing what they don't understand. They're trying to get too hands off before their hands on. Please don't do this. Go and learn about it. Spend the time really investing and learning your craft. Develop that knowledge and education. The HMO Roadmap is a superb place to play it.

To do that, it's not the only place, but please just don't outsource everything before you understand it. You'll find it incredibly difficult to manage people. You won't know what to look for when things go wrong. And that is honestly a recipe for disaster. The fourth biggie is holding you back. You're not playing the numbers game. You need to get those rookie numbers up. Start viewing every single week, getting loads of offers in, pipelining those offers that you get rejected on.

Trust me, if you've not got 10, 20, 30, 40 deals in your pipeline across the course of a year, you're not anywhere near playing the numbers game enough. And trust me, there's absolute magic and gold in this strategy. So let's build a deal funnel and make sure you follow things up and treat it like a lead generation exercise. And finally, the fifth strategic mistake that I see so many people making, and it really is holding them back, is that they are just wasting

Andy Graham (28:52.235)

the opportunity of sharing what they're doing. Use the visibility, make the work that you're doing just work harder. Share it, get it out there, start conversations, let them see the struggles and the pain that you're going through, but let them be a part of that very honest journey. And trust me, you will thank yourself in one or two or three years time when some of those people looking in now are happy to lend you some money to do the next project.

That is it for today's episode guys. Like I said earlier, if you want to come and discuss anything that we have covered off in today's episode, head on over to the HMO community. That's our free group in Facebook. Fantastic place, over 10,000 of us that can discuss this sort of stuff, share ideas, experiences, and just give you that support, motivation, and guidance that you need if you are finding it difficult. Of course, all of the solutions and the real detail about everything that we've covered in today's episode, the what you need to do, the step-by-step, it's all waiting for you inside thehmoroadmap.co.uk plus you can access my downloadable resources and templates. It'll save you thousands of pounds and countless hours trying to get your hands on it or create it yourself. You'll get access to the deal stacker. You'll find an unlimited amount of inspiration from our members who've shared their incredible case studies that you can learn from. And when we're talking about being honest about what deals really involve and the numbers, it's all there, all the optimisation studies, the floor plans, the befores and afters, everything and a whole lot more is waiting for you inside thehmoroadmap.co.uk. 

That's it guys. I hope you've enjoyed today's episode. I hope you found value and I hope more than anything you'll join me right back here in the very same place next week for another installment of the HMO podcast.