How Craig Fisher Built a £250k-a-Year HMO Portfolio on the Side While Running a Multi-Million Pound Business

In today’s episode, I sit down with Craig Fisher, the founder of CF Commercial, HausProud Living, and co-founder of Yvonne Ellen, to unpack how he’s built a £250k-per-year HMO portfolio while running several multi-million-pound businesses.

Craig joined my mentorship programme in June 2023, and together we’ve focused on building a simple, repeatable model that works. In this conversation, I pull back the curtain on the exact deal criteria, refurb standards, KPIs, and risk controls Craig uses to make sure his portfolio performs, even when he isn’t there.

If you’re busy, ambitious, and want to build a property business that runs on systems rather than heroics, this is one you don’t want to miss.

🎯 What You’ll Learn

• The HMO model we implemented
• How I helped Craig invest remotely with trusted partners
• The weekly KPIs we track to keep performance on target
• Smart risk management strategies that protect your projects
• How Craig successfully raises private finance for growth
• Why focus beats chasing clever deals

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💻 Resources & Mentions

• Mentorship: Ready to take things to the next level? Apply to join my 1-2-1 mentorship programme here.
• The HMO Roadmap: Feeling overwhelmed? Access 400+ tools, templates, and lessons to help you start, scale, and systemise your HMO business - all in one place. Join here.
• Facebook Group: Got questions or need support? Come and connect with 10,000+ investors inside The HMO Community here.
• Social: Follow me on Instagram for daily HMO tips, advice, and behind-the-scenes updates here.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Andy Graham: Hey I'm Andy, and you're listening to the HMO Podcast. Over 10 years ago, I set myself the challenge of building my own property portfolio, and what began as a short-term investment plan soon became a long-term commitment to change the way young people live together. I've now built several successful businesses.

[00:00:17] Andy Graham: I've raised millions of pounds of investment, and I've managed thousands of tenants, join me and some very special guests to discover the tips, tricks, and hacks, the ups and the downs, the best practice. And everything else you need to know to start, scale and systemise your very own HMO portfolio now.

[00:00:35] Andy Graham: The thing that I love the most about what I get to do in my property training and education business is that I get to help people achieve great things. I get to watch them take what they've got now and apply the right structure and mindset. Processes and build something that can genuinely change their life.

[00:00:49] Andy Graham: And today's guest, Craig, is a brilliant example of this. Craig and I have been working together since June, 2023. Craig has been on my mentorship program over that time, and since then, Craig has built a really strong portfolio of HMOs. Now, Craig's already a very successful business owner, as you're about to find out in today's episode, but he wanted to build on that legacy and success through property.

[00:01:11] Andy Graham: The goal was to build a portfolio that could eventually support his exit from his trading businesses and give he and his family the financial freedom and the long-term security that his businesses don't necessarily give him right now. And that's what has made Craig's journey so interesting and I think so inspiring.

[00:01:27] Andy Graham: Craig is incredibly busy. He doesn't have the time to manage every detail. He's had to learn to trust the process, rely on other people, and build systems that keep things moving without him. And in the process, Craig's built. Great amount of confidence to take on bigger deals and raise more finance and treat property like a serious business, much like he does with his other ventures.

[00:01:45] Andy Graham: In today's episode, we are going to unpack what Craig has done and how he's done it, how he's balanced his time, how he's managed risk and build trust in the people around him to create a great portfolio that performs when he isn't there. I've got no doubt that today's episode is gonna be an incredibly inspiring and motivational one for anybody building their own HMO business. So without further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy today's episode of the HMO Podcast.

[00:02:14] Andy Graham: Hey guys, it's Andy here. We are gonna be getting back. To the podcast in just a moment. But before we do, I wanna tell you very quickly about the HMO roadmap. Now, if you are serious about replacing your income, or perhaps you've already got a HMO portfolio that you want to scale up, then the HMO roadmap really is your one stop shop.

[00:02:30] Andy Graham: Inside the roadmap, you'll find a full 60 lesson course delivered by me teaching you how to find more deals, how to fund more deals, and raise private finance, how to refurbish great properties, how to fill them with great tenants that stay for longer, and how to manage your properties and tenants. For the future.

[00:02:45] Andy Graham: We've also got guest workshops added every single month. We've got new videos added every single week about all sorts of topics. We've got downloadable resources, cheat sheets, and swipe files to help you. We've got case studies from guests and community members who are doing incredible projects that you can learn from.

[00:03:00] Andy Graham: And we've also built an application just for you that allows you to appraise and evaluate your deals, stack them side by side and track the key metrics that are most important to you. To find out more, head to theHMOroadmap.co.UK now, and come and join our incredible community of HMO property investors.

[00:03:23] Andy Graham: Hi Craig. Thanks for joining me on the podcast today. 

Craig Fisher: No problem at all. Pleased to be here, Andy. 

Andy Graham: We've been working together for a long time, Craig, so two, nearly three years now. But you are a busy guy. You've got a lot of stuff going on in business. We're gonna get into all of that today. I think your story is really very, very unique.

[00:03:42] Andy Graham: But I think it'd be fair to say that a lot of our audience probably wouldn't have discovered you yet. 'cause you keep yourself to yourself on the most part. You're in your own lane. So can you give us just a very quick introduction? Craig, who are you, where are you and what are you doing? 

[00:04:01] Craig Fisher: Sure. So I'm trying to kick this to 60 seconds. So I'm Craig. I'm the founder of CF Commercial and House Proud Living and co-founder also of Yvonne Ellen. That's a Homeware brand focus on bringing joy to people's homes. So for 16 years. I've helped get the ground floor of like new neighborhoods, the right strategy, ERVs, leasing state sales, focusing on curating the right operators.

[00:04:29] Andy Graham: And it is safe to say, and I think that you're very, very modest as well. These big businesses, the commercial business, Yvonne Ellen, these are big businesses. You've got a lot of stuff going on. You're a very successful entrepreneur and you are also investing in HMOs, which is obviously why we've been working together for the last few years.

[00:04:49] Andy Graham: So what I'd love to do today is kinda get into the weeds of. What brought you into the HMO space, how you've actually built the portfolio that you have, what that looks like now in that short space of time. And I think perhaps most interestingly, how you've managed to do it all alongside your commercial business alongside Yvonne Ellen.

[00:05:08] Andy Graham: And just very quickly, for all of our listeners, I mean, Yvonne Ellen, you guys sell stuff on John Lewis and wait and things like that. So it is a big brand. So you've got a lot of stuff going on. So Craig, perhaps you could. Just take us back a little bit before property, at least HMOs. Tell us a bit about your background and what sort of businesses do you, tell us a little bit more about the commercial business in Yvonne Ellen

[00:05:32] Craig Fisher: Sure. So I'd say it's, there's three linked Ventures, so. CF commercial that is estates across London that are mixed use developments predominantly, but, but assets where we work on the ground floor and the GDV on those assets is typically 250 million to 3 billion. So they are big. Space, place changing developments where we've helped shaped and curate the ground floors across London.

[00:06:00] Craig Fisher: So, so first and foremost, that's where my mindset has been. How do we make places better? And that's ingrained with me. And then Yvonne Ellen is a design-led homeware brand, and it's built its mantra. Built to bring joy to people's homes and the quirky pieces and the lifestyle and for every different room in the house, if you like.

[00:06:23] Craig Fisher: It's a real conversation starter. It's a very much a much loved brand. I don't take any credit for any of the design or the actual creativity, but building a business is the bit that lands on my lap and it gives me a lot of pleasure.

[00:06:35] Andy Graham: So. CF commercial, how long's that been around and just, you've done things around, uh, Wembley, I think you've done huge schemes in in Elephant Park and all sorts of stuff. So how long has that business been going on, and am I right in thinking that you built this. Commercial mixed use business from the ground up?

[00:06:54] Craig Fisher: Yeah, it was All of these businesses have been a startup, so CF commercial started from my front room after being at a big corporate, and that worked on, basically, I was knocking on doors of landlords saying, we're an expert at this, this, and this.

[00:07:09] Craig Fisher: And then they gave me an opportunity and then fast forward that to the current day. It's these major developments like what we've been talking about. So yeah, very much a startup to the business that you see here today.

[00:07:21] Andy Graham: Okay. So pretty serious stuff and you've achieved some really incredible stuff and you've done some unbelievable deals and even Yvonne Ellen and the brand is so, so cool, but clearly very, very successful.

[00:07:33] Andy Graham: Craig now. It begs the question, I'm sure everybody's already thinking this at this point. Why have you decided to invest in HMO? Now, I don't want you to answer that just yet. I wanna come to that. But before we do, because I think this is what is particularly interesting about you and what I am especially proud of, what you've been able to achieve, what does a typical day look like for you?

[00:07:56] Andy Graham: Because you are a busy guy. You are very, very, very busy. So what does a typical day, a typical week in Craig's life look like? HMO aside for a minute.

[00:08:05] Craig Fisher: Where do I start? Yeah. I think from my point of view, I'm trying to keep some shape to what the, what my weeks and days look. Weekly rhythm with named owners, basically. And so we're trying to track everything and KPIs and having an amazing team in each of the businesses. But most honest, uh, even my, I've got my EA keeps me very honest basically, and, and does run my life basically. Yeah.

[00:08:34] Andy Graham: I think it's fair to say that you are a process driven guy and you are very detail orientated. And I have sat here in this chair and. We must be onto sort of episode 330 something now, and I've worked with some really incredible people and I have said very honestly over the years that the people that I have seen achieve. The most and get the best results have been those individuals who've been able to focus.

[00:09:01] Andy Graham: And I think that your ability to focus on what we've worked on together over the last few years alongside your other priorities, which are obviously very, very significant, and we not even really touched on stuff you like to do outside of work and family, which I know Really incredibly important to you as well.

[00:09:17] Andy Graham: Um, that really stands out to me and I think what we'll find today and our listeners will learn is that the method that we have adopted and that you have learned and implemented into your HMO business is largely why you have been able to achieve so much. Not to take anything away from you at all Craig, you're incredibly intelligent, super switched on guy, but you've got all of these things to juggle and your ability to do that I think has, has been so impressive.

[00:09:42] Andy Graham: So why HMOs then? Tell us about why you decided to make this venture into HMOs with so much going on and so much success already. 

[00:09:49] Craig Fisher: Honestly, like family moment, a madness, but family security sitting there. A bit cliche on my 40th birthday at our traditional pre-K before school drop off and thinking and just looking like what was, if I couldn't, couldn't be going out, working every day and HMOs like they let me.

[00:10:11] Craig Fisher: Diversification and impact basically. And I watched my working capital get pulled in 2008, so I have seen that and I've decided to build assets that are basically there for my family, even if I can't work.

[00:10:26] Andy Graham: So this was a very long-term plan for you, wasn't it? It wasn't like you immediately needed cashflow.

[00:10:33] Andy Graham: You very much wanted to create some diversification, build a long-term, I suppose, future-proofed plan. That meant thinking did go sideways with either your own ability to run the businesses or the businesses themselves. You would just have these assets that were creating cash and generating recurring income.

[00:10:52] Andy Graham: It sounds really simple when you say it like that, but I think it will be surprising to a lot of people that having achieved so much success and having businesses and running businesses of a certain scale, that HMOs are still an attractive venture. And I'm not surprised with this because I've worked with many, many people like yourselves, Craig, very successful business owners, people who've exited businesses looking.

[00:11:11] Andy Graham: To diversify their funds. It's really interesting, I think that we all go about achieving our objectives in a slightly different way, but many of us share that same objective. And really, when we think long term, most of us, certainly the people I speak to, want to have that stability and that security assets that generate income.

[00:11:30] Andy Graham: Whether they have to get up and do the work for it, whether their health is in good or or sort of poor order or whatever else might be going on around them. And some people build businesses to try and accelerate that process. Some people build property businesses and try and make the property business the vehicle to get there ultimately.

[00:11:47] Andy Graham: But you are obviously using all of your resources, your skill and experience in property, your capital, your contacts to kind of build this long term venture. So I'm sure that this is really. Really interesting for our listeners. So now that we know why you've invested in HMOs, let's talk a little bit about when you decided to come on board and work with me.

[00:12:07] Andy Graham: Because you, again, very intelligent, a lot of free information out there. You are very, very successful. Why did you decide to join a mentorship program? Why, you know, what was the decision and what was the reason behind actually coming to work with somebody like me, Craig? You could have probably done this on your own. You could have figured all this stuff on your own, but you decided to do it in a slightly different way.

[00:12:28] Craig Fisher: Happy to. Of course. So my mentality there was I think clarity and cadence basically. So starting with you in, in the middle of, what was it, 23? Yeah. You've stopped me chasing like planning heavy distractions. All I can think of. Here's the cold tower coming. We've said that a few times, and committing to like license planning like HMOs and a simple rhythm I think you’ve

[00:12:58] Craig Fisher: Standardized. Certify. Stabilize, and that meant. The result's been faster and there's fewer surprises and the pipeline has been deliverable to get to this point. So I remember, first interview, the first sort of time we met, I was actually nervous whether you were gonna work with me.

[00:13:16] Craig Fisher: I think you have that kind of like sounding people out and vice versa to make sure everyone's a good fit. And I think, yeah, it felt like I was meeting, a mini celebrity, basically. I was very, very sweaty palms.

[00:13:29] Andy Graham: Well, I'm not sure about that, but I think actually on reflection of our work together over the last few years, I think that's a really honest interpretation of it.

[00:13:37] Andy Graham: I think what really stood out straight away was that the decision about investing in HMOs you had already made, and you were super focused on delivering that long term objective, but. Unsure, perhaps about where best to try and deliver this and exactly what method of delivery would work best.

[00:13:55] Andy Graham: Right down to the kind of the fundamentals of should we be looking at students or professionals or socials? You know, how do these different strategies actually work in practice? And when you combine that with location, how does this all pan out in the future? And you are based in Central London, not an easy place to invest in HMO, certainly for a yield, which was a really important part of your strategy.

[00:14:16] Andy Graham: I think one of the other things that we spend a lot of time working on, I think you found a really great sort of way of delivering was, was balance. Looking for that good deal, but that good deal didn't necessarily mean the deal that recycled the most money or generated the most cash on a monthly basis.

[00:14:32] Andy Graham: It was that deal that gave a good balance of everything, wasn't it? Not too risky. Nice sort of cashflow at the backend. Not too much capital left in, but happy to leave a bit in and location was a really important decision and, and I wanna come onto to that and some more of those material items in a little while, but gives a snapshot then Craig, of where you have got to in that short space of time, of long sight.

[00:14:57] Andy Graham: The other big businesses that you run, what does the portfolio look like? Properties, rooms. And if you don't mind, uh, what does the sort, the rental income look like?

[00:15:04] Craig Fisher: Not at all. So the portfolio now, if I give you a snapshot of today, it's five houses, 35 rooms, and it's. Yeah, there's a gross income of about quarter of a million pounds, and that's from our standing start together since we started a couple of years ago. So I'm, I'm super proud of, of being able to get to this point and to have a business model that is truly working.

[00:15:34] Andy Graham: And in terms of occupancy, the rooms are performing very well and really everything's sort of gone largely to plan, hasn't it?

[00:15:41] Craig Fisher: In the end, mostly in the end. Mostly in the end. Mm-hmm. It's running at about 95, 90% occupancy in line with the business plan. So it's still in the honeymoon period I suppose we can call it, but it's so far so good. There's been a few issues, but that's all part of the learning curve that you've been guiding me on.

[00:16:00] Andy Graham: Well, that then, I mean, that's certainly part of property. Well, I mean, fantastic achievement Craig to all of that alongside everything else, I think is really,

[00:16:08] Andy Graham: Fantastic. I mean, for a lot of people, for most people, those five HMOs themselves with that sort of return, they themselves would be job replacing territory. At that point. You could look at retiring, semi-retiring, moving out, leaving a job, going full-time in property, whatever it might be. And I think that your ability to have done that in such a short space of time is impressive, but there has been a method to that, which is what I want to get in today.

[00:16:31] Andy Graham: So let's talk about location. You decided to invest in the Northeast and you are based in and around central London. What made that the right market for you? Let's sort of rewind and kind of go back to that time when you made that decision.

[00:16:47] Craig Fisher: Honestly, I did a big project in the Northeast for a client, so it was a big fund that was creating a combined center for education and education and wellness.

[00:17:01] Craig Fisher: And like lots of different centers that will be created, like an enormous mixed use development. And that showed me, uh, having stayed up there a few days when we were putting their ground floor strategy together. Actually, you could be at your desk, you could be surfing in the morning and then be at your desk half an hour later and, and I thought, what a great lifestyle.

[00:17:22] Craig Fisher: And then with all of my sort of regeneration sort of hat on, I could see that a lot of people and the way that the lifestyle was going, that actually. It made a lot of sense for a lot of people to stay there and you could see the jobs market was driving in lots of different industries, but the value to rent works, the transport, like we've talked about, uh, the need for really high quality en suite rooms, and most importantly, I found partners I trust. So with my business and family in London, it dependable, local delivery beats proximity in a lot of respects.

[00:17:58] Andy Graham: I think that's a fantastic summary, and you did a lot of work on this. It was a plan, and this is something I labor with with everybody I work with. Really understanding where you're going to invest and why it can work more or less anywhere.

[00:18:12] Andy Graham: But finding that balance to get the numbers that you want, balance, time, travel, logistics, other resources that you might need, that's not so easy. And I remember doing a very big sort of in-depth analysis of all of this with you considering different areas. And the northeast itself is quite a big area, really pinning that down even further, and ultimately deciding on a type of house type of tenant.

[00:18:33] Andy Graham: So tell us about. The type of houses then, and kind of the performance economics, Craig, that once the location was set that you were then targeting,

[00:18:42] Craig Fisher: So typically they were houses that could be converted into six bedroom. All en suite and a really nice big living area where there's a breakout or you can socialize or do some work, be inspired.

[00:18:58] Craig Fisher: And so I would say the model works on for this without having to over-leverage like the property on a commercial valuation at the end. So I was definitely seeing that. Six bedrooms was quite a sweet spot for me. That being said, the latest project has been two eight bedroom houses next to each other, so is a slightly larger project, but that's been the model so far.

[00:19:24] Andy Graham: And what was the typical purchase price that you were targeting, Craig? Was it around the sort of 250 mark?

[00:19:30] Craig Fisher: You can halve that actually between a hundred to 150 and refurbishment pretty much the same hundred to 150. Right.

[00:19:39] Andy Graham: And typical sort of performance per room, per month. What have you been targeting on that?

[00:19:46] Craig Fisher: About 600 pounds per room and per month, and a 40 grand, give or take gross income before all of your operating expenses and finance.

[00:19:59] Andy Graham: So you set yourself a very clear framework. Um, you were too picky on any one detail in particular. You needed to see that overall balance. You set to work on delivering a portfolio within that framework.

[00:20:13] Andy Graham: And I think that that is what you then continue to focus on incredibly well. And as you develop your experience and your contacts and your networks up there, I think it's fair to say that lots of other opportunities to tended to drift your way. And we would regularly look at them. And I think that this is one of the things that.

[00:20:30] Andy Graham: Perhaps undervalued when you work with somebody who just has that little bit more experience than you just knowing when to say, yeah, it's probably a good deal, but actually it doesn't really fit within the framework that we set, and it probably doesn't actually help us deliver this result. It's not to say that it wouldn't make money.

[00:20:45] Andy Graham: It's not to say that it wouldn't have some value, but actually does it fit within this golden objective, or do we need to change the goal and the objective when we would? Periodically have these conversations, wouldn't they? And we would reassess and just almost just keep fine tuning, you know, just check our bearings and just make sure that we were still on course.

[00:21:03] Andy Graham: And again, I think that your willingness to do that has what has really stood out for me. You've been happy to just almost say, you know what, let's stick with the cookie forter stuff. Let's just rinse and repeat. Let's do the same thing again. Let's do it in the same way because it works. And of course.

[00:21:18] Andy Graham: Once you do it once, twice, three times and you develop that experience, things do tend to start to get easy. You do develop a bit of a rinse and a peak process to the business in terms of the types of refurbs. Then Craig, let's just talk about the scale and the scope of refurbishments because I think it's fair to say that these are not just homes under the hammer type of refurbs.

[00:21:38] Andy Graham: These are pretty full on refurbs with compliance stuff, but tell us a little bit about the sorts of projects that you have been doing.

[00:21:44] Craig Fisher: So I will comment on the sort of projects that I've been doing for sure. But going back to what you've just said, Andy, I appreciate it and I'd say as well as a mentor, you've been a great therapist as well at the same time. Yeah. Keeping the strategy on track, so Yes.

[00:22:01] Andy Graham: Yeah. Well, trust me, Craig, the couch in my room has been well used over the years by my clients. But I mean, that's the reality of property, isn't it? It is hard. There are difficult decisions, but I think sometimes actually with the right. Know how, it's often a bit easier than most people think to break down those challenges into smaller bite-sized amounts, and most importantly, just find a way to progress.

[00:22:22] Andy Graham: Sometimes the outcome isn't quite as good as we expected, but we knew that there was always a risk of that going into the deal and the first place. And I think you've gotta also be pragmatic in this game. It's not predictable. That is one thing about property for sure, and actually I think that that's one of the reasons why you and I love it because.

[00:22:41] Andy Graham: It isn't predictable because it is a challenge because there is a creative element to it, because you don't always quite know how it's gonna pan out, and you're sort of holding your breath, but in a strange, slightly sadistic way, it can be quite an enjoyable experience to test yourself and challenge yourself and really push yourself.

[00:22:57] Andy Graham: And I love that about this business. So tell us about the type of refurb. I mean, there have certainly been challenges with some of the refurbishments as well. I remember one in particular that we landed on for a while, but give, give us an idea, here's the flavor for the types of projects that you've been doing.

[00:23:11] Craig Fisher: Yeah, so it goes back to the big generation schemes, like what do they teach about good housing and community and curation and standards create the outcome. So I think the best schemes get the operator mix and the handover, right? And somewhere you want to live. That reflects your personality almost like. Where you would meet someone in a coffee shop and be happy to invite your friends to go and meet you for a coffee, go and meet you there.

[00:23:39] Craig Fisher: And I think the same applies to HMO, so always looking at it on starting again. So back to brick refurbishment and having everything built so that you'd apply the same philosophy. Quiet doors. Couple of cupboards per tenant so that the kitchen stay calm. The breakout areas we've mentioned and management that responds fast so that we're like when the basics are right and you put in high quality all en suite, so you've got your own self-contained space to live in.

[00:24:14] Craig Fisher: If you don't actually wanna mix with anyone else, you could live in your room and quite comfortably. I think that's where you do create the basics are right. You create community.

[00:24:23] Andy Graham: I think all of these features, they're ingredients, aren't they? To create an environment that, from our perspective as landlords, from as investors, nurture tenants, attract tenants, that tenants want to stay there.

[00:24:36] Andy Graham: They don't feel like they need to stay there. They choose to live there, so they're willing to pay a bit more and also. They want to continue staying there, and I think that the value of that is so still under underappreciated, tend to stay for longer, are so incredibly valuable. Churn is a very, very expensive part of the process and churn happens because.

[00:24:57] Andy Graham: The actual practicalities or the living environment aren't quite meeting a tenant's needs or often the management isn't quite good enough. Tenants feel that they are undervalued, underappreciated, they're not quite getting what they want. They get frustrated and they move on to something new. Customers tends that they are fickle like many of us are with many services in life now.

[00:25:17] Andy Graham: And that's reality. And I think you've really. Focus on building a service much like you have with your other businesses, where you've got a client and a customer and they need to be happy with the service and more importantly, impressed with the service and want to continue using it. And I know that a lot of your, the time and focus and effort has gone into that.

[00:25:34] Andy Graham: And actually just looking at the schemes now, we've labeled a lot, haven't we, over details of the schemes and maybe investing a bit more in certain spec items, just to make sure that you have put yourself into that top, top percentile of. Accommodation because we both believe that if there were to be an issue, if the market wobbled or anything happened, then actually having the best accommodation, even if you had to price adjust, would be a better position to be in, being in the middle of the market or the lower the market, and then having to adjust price.

[00:26:05] Andy Graham: It gets quite difficult, so watching you prioritise all that stuff and create really incredible homes that look great, provide great living for tenants, I think has been very impressive to see. And obviously that is reflected in your occupancy now, the performance and the portfolio is running very, very well.

[00:26:21] Andy Graham: Let's talk about then some of the logistics of this, because I'm sure a lot of our listeners right now are thinking, well, you are in these businesses, you're very busy, you're based in London, and you've managed to do this in the Northeast. Surely you are not up and down on the train every week or every few days to manage these refurbishments to make it happen.

[00:26:38] Andy Graham: And obviously that's not the case. So let's talk about how you have been able to deliver this, Craig, because I think this in part is quite unique as well. Let's talk first of all about actually finding deals. How have you found deals that are several hundred miles away from where you are with a limited amount of time to invest in that process yourself?

[00:26:56] Craig Fisher: So it's been through partners and people who are there on the ground day in, day out, and having people that. You work with once and you build some trust with has been, it is always the key. It's long-term relationships so that you know that when someone picks up the phone. So you are getting the real scenario, the real, this is what it is.

[00:27:17] Craig Fisher: And I think that that's enabled me to go on and to start scaling like I have done. So yes, you are absolutely right. It's, I haven't been going to Kings cross up to the northeast every week, week and week out. But you know what? I do like the train journey from time to time because it's a bit of space to think and do some work and a bit of peace and quiet. So yeah.

[00:27:39] Andy Graham: It sounds like these relationships, Craig, which have obviously been critical, you almost look at them like a real business partnership, even though technically speaking. They aren't necessarily that third party providers and services that you work with or employ the services of, but it does sound like that was the way that you approached it and you didn't rush to make any decisions with the potentially wrong parties. Would that be right to say?

[00:28:03] Craig Fisher: A hundred percent because at the end of the day, you just can't do everything and there's no point getting it wrong. So yes, err on the side of caution, but when you do something, just make sure that you've mitigated as many of the, uh, risks as as possible. And I think having you there and just going

[00:28:23] Craig Fisher: With my intuition and everything I've lived and breathed in my career, it feels like it was just a natural step for me to be able to deliver on the these types of projects. And having a weekly operating rhythm, like with named owners and who's doing what is really like, makes us track occupancy void, snag status, cash every week.

[00:28:47] Craig Fisher: And my EA. Honestly, she's like a rash. When there's a, at the moment, a room's empty. So she's on our, um, keeping our local partners honest, the letting and the managing agents. So yeah, I think it's been pretty manageable so far.

[00:29:01] Andy Graham: You mentioned earlier on KPIs, and this is something that you've put a really good use in your business. Obviously the sort of partners that you're talking about, you've used sourcing partners, delivery partners, people to do the refurbishments. You've obviously paid for those services, but that has meant that you haven't had to be there and involved on a day-to-day, week to week basis, which practically would, would've obviously been impossible.

[00:29:23] Andy Graham: And that was a very. Strategic decision that you made, and you've obviously picked very carefully and been very diligent with who you've chosen to work with. But those KPIs and those different targets that you have set, you have positioned yourself within your property business to manage these people.

[00:29:40] Andy Graham: That has become your role, hasn't it? Managing the people, sourcing the right deals, making sure that actually what you ultimately buy is quite right. If there's more negotiation that needs to be done. Um, same with your refurbishment partners. Your job is to manage them. It's not just to expect that they deliver everything a hundred percent of the time or in exactly the way. That they tell you that they will. Would that be fair to say, Craig? It's not a completely passive exercise, is it?

[00:30:03] Craig Fisher: No. A hundred percent not. It's, what's the saying? You can only manage what you measure or measure anyway, but just that a little bit. But the point is, is, is you can't give everyone just free rating to go and mark their own homework.

[00:30:15] Craig Fisher: 'cause you know what will happen. So I have tried to put it in as many. Safeguards as possible. And I think one of the best things that we did early on, best bits of advice that that you gave, that gave me the comfort was with, uh, regards to getting a, a minor works JCT contract signed off with our contractors and additionally having a, a monitoring surveyor, so someone who was local on the ground.

[00:30:43] Craig Fisher: Going there week in, week out, signing off the work, inspecting what had been done. That was on, on sort of my team, if you like. So it's just, that's one of a number of things that have enabled me to be in this position where I, I get comfortable with large sums of money being spent when you're not sort of physically on the doorstep.

[00:31:05] Andy Graham: I think that's a really great point, by the way, that phrase, you can't manage what you don't measure is right. I live and die about that as well. My, my non-execs, JP, oh thank goodness, drilled that into me at a very early stage, which is probably why you and I have worked so well together as well, because we both have that same attitude towards.

[00:31:23] Andy Graham: Managing measuring important detail. And I think it is a really important piece to highlight because I think that there could be an assumption here that employing these third party services is a way to absolve yourself of being involved in the growth of a portfolio. And it can all just kind of work largely without you.

[00:31:41] Andy Graham: And actually that's not the case. We identified very early on that for you to make this work and in this location, there were some inherent risks, one of which was that you were not going to be there and on the ground yourself. As regularly as you might otherwise be if it was local or you had more time.

[00:31:57] Andy Graham: And so we've, I think one of the focuses of our work together over the last few years has been to continually review risks, I think, hasn't it? And you just talked about an example there. I mean, let's give into that because I think that this is, again, such an important part of the whole process and one of the things that I think that is often overlooked, especially by investors that are perhaps.

[00:32:20] Andy Graham: Relatively new to the process of investing in real estate. I mean, bringing in a monitoring surveyor is such a simple and straightforward task, but I would imagine that less than 1% of our many thousands of listeners do that. And I do it on every single project, as do you. That is your eyes and ears on the ground.

[00:32:37] Andy Graham: That is somebody measuring the works and making sure that you don't end up in a position on a project where actually you've overpaid for works that hasn't been done, and then the builder walks off or the builder goes, boss, or you have that sort of issue or you have a, an argument or a disagreement and the builder told you that X, Y, and Z has been found and happened.

[00:32:52] Andy Graham: Then actually. The contract says this, we're paid for this. It's very black and white. There's been lots of other stuff that we've done, haven't they, Craig, that you, in terms of risk reduction and risk mitigation, are there any other sort of standout features that, in terms of risk management, that when you look at your portfolio, you feel like have been managed very well from your perspective to kinda help contain all of the things that could go wrong?

[00:33:15] Andy Graham: And I suppose we're talking about stuff like. How you manage the occupancy period or making sure that your property managers are actually performing in the right way. What are the sort of tactics have you employed to actually help make sure that. The portfolio and the performance has been delivered within that framework that you set out.

[00:33:32] Craig Fisher: Yeah, so the weekly rhythm that we started to talk about a bit is so, so important, and having that visible and shared with your local partners, but shared with your, you know, the home team if you like. And when a room is empty, it's about. Just really being front and center and managing and we've, and you've shown me some tips and tricks as well to like relate to the leasing or the lettings and the managing agents about.

[00:33:59] Craig Fisher: Refreshing adverts and just being really proactive with basically understanding that your profit every day that these rooms are being, vacant, is being eroded away and it's worth reducing if you need to, as opposed to just staying, digging your heels in and trying to get the highest rent. So yes, the local partners take the first line.

[00:34:23] Craig Fisher: Issues, I'd say and management day to day, and I take on the exceptions and I think getting that process holistically into place has been the key here.

[00:34:32] Andy Graham: And ultimately why your performance has been as good as as it has been. Craig, let's talk about your plans for the future because you've got very big plans with all of this stuff.

[00:34:41] Andy Graham: You know, it feels like we've just  been warming up. What do you want to do with the portfolio now? Where do you want to take it? Now that you've got this foundation, you've got proof of concept, you've got your local partners and. Strategy and what  do you wanna do next? Where does this go? 

[00:34:52] Craig Fisher: I think it's the cold, flannel again, when I, before I answer this, but it's, it's more of the same and a size up as well.

[00:35:01] Craig Fisher: So I think more of the same in terms of the smaller, licensed HMOs, six beds, but then looking at town centres and old underused utilized like. Buildings and thinking actually this would be a fantastic conversion into a larger HMO. So I have got an eye on that. I think I've, I'm not running before I can walk now and certainly something in the next couple of years that I'll be, be looking to do.

[00:35:31] Craig Fisher: So I think going from 35 rooms. To a hundred rooms, so like one a quarter for the next couple of years, and then one slightly larger one will get me there or thereabouts. And then I think it'll be taking stock of where we are at that stage.

[00:35:50] Andy Graham: Very exciting plans and I've got no doubt whatsoever that. You'll continue to do really great things in this space. One thing I wanna ask you, Craig, is about finance and access to finance. I think this is probably a good point in today's episode to perhaps dispel the myth that because you are a successful business owner, you just had an infinite amount of capital to plow into this business.

[00:36:10] Andy Graham: Actually, the truth is you have been like most people who enter this space. Very, very resourceful in terms of where you've got your capital from. Can we talk about that and obviously as we look ahead, this is something you and I have talked about a lot more, that requirement for more capital becomes increasingly important. Can you tell us about that role within your business and. Finance and access to private finance and kinda how that kind of fits amongst this whole plan.

[00:36:37] Craig Fisher: Hmm. I think confidence comes from track records like delivery and transparency, and I think you're absolutely right. We've had to. Throughout at the project from start for each one, been raising private finance basically, and when you've got growing other trading businesses, that means that a lot of your capital and  cash flow goes into growing those businesses.

[00:37:02] Craig Fisher: So you're right, you haven't got a magic tree sitting somewhere where you can just go and buy and refurbish. HMOs and you know, hundreds of thousands of pounds of time. I think from my point of view, I've gone to people who I've known over the last 16 years in the property industry, and I've said, Hey, this is what I'm doing.

[00:37:20] Craig Fisher: This is how I'm doing it. Would you be interested in earning some extra money on your cash that is sitting there and. That doesn't mean that they have a stake in the properties. It's an investor rolled up loan. So they have provided me the cash and then the interest rolls up, and then I pay them back once we go onto a refinance.

[00:37:44] Craig Fisher: So once It's been refurbished once the value has been round, and then I pay them back their, their cash with interest. And what I'll say is my biggest tick in the box with this so far is that I've had the same two investors invest in every single property. So I'd like to think, yeah, that's a big sort of tick in the cv. In a private investor box, if you like.

[00:38:06] Andy Graham: Well, it's obviously been such an important part of your ability to grow as quickly and as far as you have in that short space of time, but obviously an increasingly critical element of what you need moving forward. And I think one thing I, I picked up then that, that I think is so important to highlight is that some of these contexts that you are able to tap into go back 15, 16 years and I think.

[00:38:31] Andy Graham: That is such an important thing that we should all be doing now. I think one way that I like to describe it's make all the work that you're doing now, work a bit harder. Share your work. Invite people in, build your network and your contact base because even if you don't need them now, even if you don't need their capital or you need nothing from them right now, at some points in the future, you may well do and you've got a good relationship and you've been able to demonstrate a good track record and.

[00:38:59] Andy Graham: There is trust. It makes the process of raising capital so much easier. It removes that friction. It's much harder to do from a cold start if you have no contacts and if you got no experience and going out to raise capital is much harder, not impossible by any means, but it is much harder. And I think, again, fair to say, Craig, that you followed my blueprint.

[00:39:19] Andy Graham: Like, here's how to put a deck together. Here's how to put your package your deal up. Here's how to demonstrate what you're doing, who you are. We wrapped all of your business up in a fantastic looking brand that it all demonstrated and I think to neatly packaged up your objectives, your goals, your mission, your value, as well as the bit that is also important to investors, which is the return and the risk and the security and the exit and things like that.

[00:39:43] Andy Graham: And of course, you went away, picked up loads of finance, and at the end the problem became all, okay, how do we spend this money? We need to potentially do more deals, but we also need to balance that with not tripping ourselves up. Craig, it's been an absolutely pleasure to work with you over the last few years and a real pleasure having you on the show today to talk about your story and your journey.

[00:40:00] Andy Graham: I think it's a really unique and really inspiring story. I know behind the scenes how important your family is to you, and really that's the big driver to all of this. This for you. But I think watching somebody with as many priorities and commitments as you do this and achieve such great stuff, I think.

[00:40:17] Andy Graham: It should be such a great learning for anybody today, and I think anybody who is wondering whether or not it can be done, whether they're too busy, I think this is just a very gentle reminder that they are all just excuses. If you are prepared to put the work in and if you're intelligent about it, you can do really, really incredible things.

[00:40:35] Andy Graham: And I know right now as we record this, and we talked a lot about this actually in our session earlier this week, the market's. Not in a particularly great place from a confidence point of view, as it created a lot of people unsure about whether now's the right time, should they wait sitting on their hands, people potentially getting out, people saying property is done.

[00:40:54] Andy Graham: And actually I think long term, the sorts of accommodation that investors like you and I and our listeners and our community are creating are gonna have such an important role to play. We are not building any more houses. We know that we have a growing problem. Quality and value and service is increasingly important.

[00:41:15] Andy Graham: And one thing that I don't think AI can replace is putting together a product like this. There's bits of AI that can help us along the way, but actually delivering a product like this is gonna be one of those rare, I think, uh, business strategies that kind of well into the future just remains irreplaceable.

[00:41:31] Andy Graham: So. Craig, thank you for coming on the show today. I'm so pleased for you and so proud of all the stuff that you've achieved, which is truly incredible. Before we kind of wrap up today, is there any sort of parting words of advice that you would give to anybody, maybe just a few years behind you setting off with similar objectives and a similar sort of target in terms of what they want to get from, from maybe investing in some property? What words of wisdom, what advice would you share with them today?

[00:41:58] Craig Fisher: I would suggest that you pick one model and one metric, and you build this weekly rhythm and protect your thinking time, and you leverage your time with a great EA and say no with clever off strategy deals, and if it doesn't make every decision that you make with a human outcome, so if it doesn't make your residents happy or your houses run smoother, it probably does not matter in a lot of respects. Once you're up and running.

[00:42:30] Andy Graham: Some great advice, and I think in, again, another version of the word focus. We've talked about so, so much on the show over the years. Craig, it has been a huge pleasure for anyone listening today, thank you, that wants to follow you on your journey, maybe reach out, maybe wants to work with you, give you some money, send you some deals, where should they head to?

[00:42:50] Craig Fisher: You can go to Haus Proud Living our website or on Instagram, it's spelled the Ger Way house, HAUS Living. So yeah, you can find me there.

[00:43:01] Andy Graham: Craig, thanks for coming on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure. Well done on everything you've achieved, mate, and I'm looking forward to seeing a whole lot more from you in the future.

[00:43:10] Craig Fisher: Many thanks Andy, really much appreciate all your help. Thank you.

[00:43:20] Andy Graham: That is it for today's episode, guys. Thank you for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Craig and I. I think that that was such a great reminder that no matter how busy we are, no matter how much is going on, no matter where we are based in the country, if we focus and if we work with the right people and we know how, then we can.

[00:43:36] Andy Graham: All do and achieve really great things in this game. Now, if today's episode has inspired you or motivated and pushed you to take that next step, perhaps take things more seriously and you want to come and work with me on my mentorship program, then you can drop me a message either on Instagram or head to theHMOroadmap.co uk where you will see a navigation bar for mentorship, and you can drop an enquiry on there.

[00:43:59] Andy Graham: My mentorship program is an application only program. I can only work with a small number of people, and not everybody is suitable. But if you think you're ready, and if you think now is the right time, then let's have a chat. Let's see whether or not I can help you. Of course, if you're not ready, if now's not the right time and you just wanna learn a little bit more, keep listening to the podcast.

[00:44:16] Andy Graham: And if you've got 30 seconds to spare, please, please, please leave a quick review, especially if you're finding it helpful. Head to the HMO community, that's our free group on Facebook. Come and join over 10,000 others there, and you can find lots of support and guidance and lots of great ideas being shared.

[00:44:29] Andy Graham: And of course, you could head to theroadmap.co.uk where you can join the membership program and get your hands on. Everything you need to start scale and systemise your property business. That is it for today's episode, guys. Thank you again for tuning in and don't forget that I'll be right back here in the very same place next week, so please join me then for another installment of the HMO Podcast.