Getting Better Refurb Results: Contractor Will Whittaker Explains How

In today’s episode, I’m joined by Will Whittaker - a construction expert and experienced builder - to pull back the curtain on what HMO projects really look like on the other side of the deal. What does a refurbishment or conversion look like from a builder’s perspective, and where do investors most often get caught out?

As you can imagine, I’ve got plenty of questions. I consider myself fairly experienced when it comes to buildings and refurbishments, but Will operates on another level entirely. 

If you’re planning a refurb, a conversion, or an HMO project and you want to avoid delays, disappearing trades, and expensive surprises, this is an episode you don’t want to miss.

🎯 What You’ll Learn

• What a main contractor actually does
• How to plan contingency properly for older HMO properties
• The common site problems that catch inexperienced investors out
• Why cheap drawings and vague specs almost always end up costing you more
• How to structure contracts and payment schedules
• Why “too cheap” quotes are a red flag
• Simple cost-saving decisions that don’t compromise the end result
• How to find the right contractor through proper due diligence

If you enjoyed this episode, hit subscribe and drop a quick review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify - it helps more investors find the show!

💻 Resources & Mentions

• 1-2-1 Mentorship: Ready to take things to the next level? Apply to join my 1-2-1 mentorship programme here.
• The HMO Roadmap: Feeling overwhelmed? Access 400+ tools, templates, and lessons to help you start, scale, and systemise your HMO business - all in one place. Join here.
• Facebook Community: Got questions or need support? Come and connect with 10,000+ investors inside The HMO Community here.
• Social: Follow me on Instagram for daily HMO tips, advice, and behind-the-scenes updates here.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Andy Graham: Hey, I'm Andy and you're listening to the HMO Podcast. Over 10 years ago, I set myself the challenge of building my own property portfolio, and what began as a short-term investment plan soon became a long-term commitment to change the way young people live together. I've now built several successful businesses.

[00:00:20] Andy Graham: I've raised millions of pounds of investment, and I've managed thousands of tenants, join me and some very special guests to discover the tips, tricks, and hacks, the ups and the downs, the best price. And everything else you need to know to start, scale and systemise your very own HMO portfolio now.

[00:00:40] Andy Graham: Today I'm joined by Will Whittaker, and Will is a construction expert. He's a builder. Today, I'm gonna try and pull back the curtain. What do things really look like on the other side of the deal? What does it look like from a builder's perspective. As you can imagine, I've got tons of questions. I consider myself to have a fair amount of experience when it comes to buildings and refurbishments and this sort of stuff, but of course, Will is another level entirely for anybody doing their own project, doing a refurbishment, a conversion then this is definitely an episode you want to stick around for. Let's get into it.

[00:01:14] Andy Graham: Hey guys. It's Andy here. We are gonna be getting back to the podcast in just a moment, but before we do, I wanna tell you very quickly about the HMO roadmap. Now, if you are serious about replacing your income, or perhaps you've already got the HMO portfolio that you want to scale up, then the HMO roadmap really is your one stop shop.

[00:01:31] Andy Graham: Inside the roadmap, you'll find a full 60 lesson course delivered by me teaching you how to find more deals, how to fund more deals, and raise private finance, how to refurbish great properties, how to fill them with great tenants that stay for longer, and how to manage your properties and tenants for the future.

[00:01:46] Andy Graham: We've also got guest workshops added every single month. We've got new videos added every single week about all sorts of topics. We've got downloadable resources, cheat sheets, and swipe files to help you. We've got case studies from guests and community members who are doing incredible projects that you can learn from.

[00:02:01] Andy Graham: And we've also built an application just for you that allows you to appraise and evaluate your deals, stack them side by side and track the key metrics that are most important to you. To find out more, head to theHMOroadmap.co.uk now, and come and join our incredible community of HMO property investors.

[00:02:24] Andy Graham: Hi Will, thanks for joining me on the show today. No problem. Thanks for having me. We don't often get to have someone with your expertise construction guy on the show and I'm really looking forward to this conversation. I think we can really maybe dive in possibly for the first time in, in over 300 episodes to the nitty gritty of actually the other side of the deal from as an investors concerned.

[00:02:44] Andy Graham: And really sort of see how things work from your perspective as a contractor. But Will, before I get too carried away, for anyone who's maybe not come across you yet, could you just give us a little bit of an intro? Who are you, where are you, and what is your business? What is it that you do?

[00:02:57] Will Whittaker: So I have a construction business. A lot of people on Instagram will probably know me as like a HMO developer now, which has not always been the case. I've been involved in construction since I left school, which is a long time ago now. Started as a plumber, an apprentice plumber with a local authority, that didn't go too well due to the level of work that the guys did there, which is next to nothing remarkable really.

[00:03:25] Will Whittaker: So you are like, I've gone straight from school straight into this job and I was working with guys who were literally doing nothing like they would, they might get the tools out once or twice a week. Some of them were like, I'm probably gonna get some of them in trouble there. But some of them would go.

[00:03:42] Will Whittaker: They park the work van up, get in the car and go and do their own work. It was literally that lax like, and I'd go home and tell my mum and dad and they were like, what is going on? So in the first year, that was like, I got away with that. But then the guys at college who I was in college with, they were working with like one man bands, local plumbers.

[00:04:01] Will Whittaker: So they were like flat out all week and after three months they'd be like putting bathroom suites in. Whereas I'd still be like marching back to the van for like a spanner and stuff like that, like two hour long dinners, all that. So anyway, that kind of caught up with me in the second year of college and I left and went working with a pal and his dad who had a plastering company.

[00:04:20] Will Whittaker: So I was just initially cleaning up for them and then one weekend I thought, right, I need to get going here. Obviously looking back, I was still young and I still had loads of time, but I was panicking 'cause I'm thinking I've left this apprenticeship, which at the time everyone was telling me. It was like the dream to work for the local authority and climb up and build your way up and blah, blah, blah.

[00:04:41] Will Whittaker: Then I've gone to like a laborer as such. So I just went out one weekend and bought some basic hand tools, plastering tools, and just sort of used me initiative and quickly picked that up I think, because I'd already had a go up plumbing and that hadn't worked. I think then if, all right, I'm gonna really focus on this now.

[00:05:01] Will Whittaker: So then I became a good plasterer. I trained up, I went on courses. I did me m VQs and stuff like that and and become a very competent and a good plasterer. Did that up until starting this limited company, which was about nine years ago. So I managed to become successful in the plaster and then stick that, stuck that out, and then just.

[00:05:19] Will Whittaker: Kind of set this up purely by chance, really. I just sort of started taking bigger things on and then became this limited company. Yeah.

[00:05:26] Andy Graham: And you've been doing this now for nine years as well. Yeah. So you've got all of that. So background, bit of plumbing, obviously the plastering stuff. You decided to actually do your own thing.

[00:05:35] Andy Graham: What does it look like now? I've seen your stuff. I follow you. So I think I probably got a pretty good idea, but what sort of projects are you doing now and what sort of volume of projects You must have gathered? A huge amount of experience over the last nine years doing all of this.

[00:05:48] Will Whittaker: Yeah, I have, and people often say to me, they're at the tough, them HMOs, there's a lot of work in them, HMOs and there, there, there are, but which they are obviously.

[00:05:58] Will Whittaker: And there is a lot of work in 'em. But coming from what I've done in the past, like I would be doing insurance restoration. So I'd have like a domestic house fire where there was literally four walls left and no roof, nothing. So then we'd have to, to that tie a traditional roof back into next door's, roof.

[00:06:15] Will Whittaker: Rebuild that, get it watertight, and then reinstate all the buildings. So compared to that. HMO in its existing footprint is like a walk in the park.

[00:06:25] Andy Graham: This is more simple stuff then. I mean, you say that very confidently, but actually I've seen a lot of the projects that you've done, and they are certainly, they're not for the inexperienced investor without perhaps having the right person like you on site.

[00:06:37] Andy Graham: I want to get to all of that, but, so at the minute will, obviously you're doing far more than plastering. You are a full sort of contracting outfit. You essentially will take on the whole project for a client, will you, and you'll deliver. Everything. Is that right? 

[00:06:50] Will Whittaker: Yeah. So a lot of the guys I've worked with, I've quite, a few of them are based down south. So once I've won a job and been instructed on a job, it's not uncommon for me to go and collect the keys on completion for 'em because obviously they're based down south. So literally could not get in any earlier than that. I'll then take me to readings, do all that, and then straight into the strip out right up to like final handover and whatever you would consider the final clean of the building, if you will.

[00:07:17] Andy Graham: Which is really interesting. I talk about the importance of getting the contractor and that whole body of work, right? And it's a difficult one, and you'll have experienced this and you'll have come across these sorts of challenges and seen examples of the challenges that people face in the industry, but the ability to.

[00:07:34] Andy Graham: Buy a property and have the confidence to hand the keys or even, not even hand the keys, but ask you contractors to collect the keys. 'cause you have that much trust and faith and be, 'cause you've had everything lined up and they can go and look at the property or they're ready to start because you've already been able to priced out is so valuable.

[00:07:49] Andy Graham: And again, this is all the sort of stuff that I want to come onto, but how did you end up working? More specifically on HMO's Will, was this something that you were interested in yourself or was it something that you just happened across? 'cause a particular client asked you to do this job and, and then from everything sort of snowballed from there.

[00:08:08] Will Whittaker: So the very first two HMOs I did were in Swinton and they were next to each other, and it was probably three or four years after those two that I did my next one. I got them purely by chance the, it ended up being a bit of a role letting agent who was doing them. I won't go into that, but there wasn't a lot of idea there.

[00:08:27] Will Whittaker: They were, the drawings were very basic. A lot of the design liability was, this is our, what we like. If you can find a better layout, we're happy to go with that type thing. So it wasn't a very smooth process. And getting from A to B to hand over on that was difficult. And I swore I'd never do an HMO again after that.

[00:08:46] Will Whittaker: Funnily enough. When I look back now, it wasn't the fact it was a HMO, it was sort of how poor the input was from their side, what that would put me off, not the fact that it was HMO. So I kind of got over that. I then pushed on with the insurance side of the business and then I got a call. By chance, I was doing a lot of maintenance work alongside the insurance.

[00:09:08] Will Whittaker: And I spoke to one of my dad's old bosses who had a maintenance company. I was struggling to sort of log it and keep up with it. So I asked him for some advice on that and he'd sort of have like lads on the road, trackers in the vans and he'd have big screens on the wall and he could see where they were.

[00:09:24] Will Whittaker: And he'd really professional setup and a great setup. So I actually went to him for some advice on how I could improve logging and tracking my maintenance work. And we were having a chat and he just sort of picked up some papers off his desk and said, would you be interested in having a look at these?

[00:09:39] Will Whittaker: And it was two sets of drawings for two five bed HMOs in Salford. So he said, I've been asked to price them, but I wouldn't know where to start. I could tell he was really uncomfortable in pricing. If you imagine sort of like a maintenance job that might be worth between 600 and a thousand pound, for example, to a full HMO conversion, you can understand why that would be quite daunting for someone.

[00:10:02] Will Whittaker: So anyway, long story short, I looked at 'em, I priced them and I was on site doing 'em about a fortnight later that literally as simple as that. And then I've just never looked back really. I've just gone from, from those two jobs, bounced just onto another one. Onto another one, onto another one, onto another one.

[00:10:18] Andy Graham: So Will, when you are brought in as a main contractor, then, I think this is a question that a lot of our listeners really won't be to ask today. What is it that you are doing? What is your role as a contractor? And I'm asking this because I know that a lot of, a lot of our listeners. A lot of people who are a bit more inexperienced, they do struggle to look at perhaps what’s going.

[00:10:36] Andy Graham: To be involved in a project in a refurb, and they're, they're trying to speak to plumbers and electricians and all these different people together. But just give us an, an idea, if we were to come and talk to you, somebody like you who runs a company and a construction firm like you, what is it that you do and can do for us as a client on a project like this, like a HMO conversion?

[00:10:55] Will Whittaker: I would say the most important thing is not only do I have full-time guys that work for me, I also have a really strong network of subcontractors. So I would say the, the easiest and the most simplistic answer to that question is I sort of manage every trade. So you would literally not have to speak to a plumber, an electrician, a decorator, a plasterer, so that is, is probably in the most simplistic term, the, the ease of what I would bring as a main contractor.

[00:11:24] Andy Graham: It is simple, but I think it is something that a lot of people honestly are really not actually that aware of and it is quite hard work for the inexperienced. Somebody who hasn't already got the contacts to go out and try and package all of the different trades up and not just that, then actually coordinate the sequence.

[00:11:41] Andy Graham: Of works that has to happen because of course you've got demo that's gotta be done in a particular way, and then you've got first fix and you've got some trades overlapping and timings and sequencing and, and getting ordering of materials so that they're, they arrive at the right time. That's all of a challenge.

[00:11:56] Andy Graham: And this is essentially what somebody like you in your role does, isn't it? You will basically do all of that and manage that entire process from the start to the finish.

[00:12:04] Will Whittaker: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that you wouldn't think of that. People who are inexperience would get caught out on, for example, payments is a big one, so unfortunately I'm not criticizing people.

[00:12:16] Will Whittaker: The industry is what the industry is. You'll get plumbers, joiners, electricians, anyone who'll come in, promise you the earth. They'll get the first bit of work done, they'll take the money and then they'll disappear and they'll go, they're going elsewhere. And that's just the nature of it. And that's not a criticism unfortunately. It's just the industry that we're work in. Part of my role as a main contractor will be to manage that and to make sure that I'm protecting you as my client from that as well. 

[00:12:42] Andy Graham: This for everybody listening. My regular listers are probably already aware of it, but this is exactly how I work with all my contractors, small jobs and big jobs, the multimillion pound jobs, and I think from my perspective, it does so many things.

[00:12:55] Andy Graham: First of all. It just makes the job so much less stressful because I am not an expert, I don't really understand all of the elements of construction. Broadly speaking. I understand the construction process, but actually the granular detail of certain buildups, for example, insulation, soundproofing and, and certainly into electrics and plumbing and in a heating, it can get quite complicated and the bigger schemes even more so.

[00:13:21] Andy Graham: So it immediately removes somebody like me. The investor from all of that, which is I think, incredibly important. And I want everybody to understand for a minute just how important this is because not only are we likely to get it wrong if we try and do it, but also that time is the time that we can be using to do other stuff.

[00:13:36] Andy Graham: Either the stuff that we want our business to give us, to maybe do nice and fun things with the rest of our life, or actually go out, find more deals, raise more finance. Yeah, not plan. Put the systems and processes in in place. Yeah. A lot of people, this is where, and I'm, I'm sure you've seen people yourself will.

[00:13:51] Andy Graham: This is where they can get dragged in and it's really easy, isn't it, if you don't know what you're doing to end up in, in quite a mess running a project like this if you just don't know how.

[00:14:00] Will Whittaker: Yeah, I think the mistake a lot of people think is that they can sort of just do it as a little bit of a side thing. They can carry on doing what they're doing, whereas quicker that even sometimes I'll find the problem will arise and it'll swallow up a full morning or a full day, but that is just normal to me because obviously that's. Part of what I do. But if you are inexperienced and you're trying to sort of put these fires out, you can get sort of chewed up and spat out, can't you?

[00:14:28] Andy Graham: You certainly can. Will, tell us a little bit about these sorts of problems. Will these things that can come just appear that maybe that you've experienced before, but for the inexperienced, they just wouldn't expect, just not in their field of vision at all. What sort of stuff can just come up and cause actually quite significant issues if you don't know how to deal with it.

[00:14:42] Will Whittaker: Probably stuff like drawings, maybe where architects have assumed that a wall might be masonry or it might, you know, something might be stuff that architects can't see on the initial visit until you've stripped out, and then something might change. Where it might mean the introduction of a steal, for example, or anything along those lines. 

[00:15:01] Andy Graham: And of course something like that. It's not always as simple as just doing something else on site. Sometimes you might have to actually go back to the architects or back to an engineer and being able to make quite quick decisions. Mm-hmm. So that you're not slowing down other trades and other things that are happening is quite an important part of the process, isn't it?

[00:15:17] Will Whittaker: Yeah. I think a lot of it sits on relationships. So for example, if you are a complete newbie and you are. This steel issue crops up. You've not got that relationship with a structural engineer to just pick up the phone and go, right, this has changed. Can you just have a look at that for me and can you try and drop on it this afternoon, in the morning, whatever.

[00:15:36] Will Whittaker: Yeah, no problem. I know you structural engineers say to me all the time, I know you wanna keep moving and blah, blah, blah. It's that kind of it. If you are total newbie, you're not gonna have that existing relationship where you can sort of call that favor in, if you will. Do you know what I mean?

[00:15:48] Andy Graham: Yes. I actually saw a video that you did recently Will, I think you'd been pulling some flooring up ground floor and underneath it there was loads of rotten joists.

[00:15:56] Andy Graham: Yeah, and it's that sort of thing, isn't it? Actually knowing what to do if you uncover that sort of problem and actually being able to deal with it, that's a chance. If you were managing that site yourself as an investor, discovering that problem, you might be capable of actually identifying that there might be an issue.

[00:16:14] Andy Graham: Determining what you need to do, but then actually having the trades at hand who can immediately sort of deal with it without disrupting as much as possible. The program that you know, the time that you're gonna be on site, this is where so many of the challenges come in, and if you delay people, and I think a lot of inexperienced investors who try and run projects don't necessarily understand, but if you end up delaying a trade because you find something else and you've got to deal with it.

[00:16:37] Andy Graham: They've then gotta jump on another job. And then of course it can be difficult to get people back. It can be difficult to then coordinate them with your electricians and it, and it's very easy, isn't it, for that program to slip just because something happens. And I think I saw you say something like this, but.

[00:16:52] Andy Graham: Is there almost an expectation Will from you that certain things will happen. You've got to build that into a contingency. You've got to have a pretty good understanding as to what you are likely or even possibly might find behind the walls and under the floors and stuff. Is that how you approach a project as a contractor?

[00:17:07] Will Whittaker: Yeah, absolutely, because you've gotta think the buildings that particularly like residential buildings that are ripe for HMO conversion are generally large terrace properties aren't there. That's what we're all looking for. And then we filter it further from there. But in general, they are large terrace properties.

[00:17:25] Will Whittaker: Now. Large terrace properties are all old, aren't they? They've been built, you know, a hundred years ago, whatever. So if you are walking into a building like that and expecting to just strip it out and think, right, I'm totally stripped out. I could see everything now. Everything's fine, then you're gonna be disappointed because the age of the building, as I've mentioned, but also as well, a lot of the population will sort of have the view of, well, look, if it's out of sight, it's outta mind.

[00:17:52] Will Whittaker: So they won't spend fortunes on, they'll spend fortunes on a nice, lovely kitchen, a nice, lovely bathroom. Generally there's stuff that's hidden. They kind of try and ignoring my experience and, and I think that's where a lot of econ contingency comes in. It's almost a bit like all for coat, no knickers type.

[00:18:08] Will Whittaker: Whereas when we are putting them back, we try and sort of start with the fundamentals and then leave a lovely finished product, which then that investment property is gonna stand the test of time for whoever own. 

[00:18:22] Andy Graham:  I've always found building such an interesting concept. My uncle was a builder and I've talked about this on the show before and my passion and my real interest in property came from him.

[00:18:28] Andy Graham: And I used to spend time on the building site and he was like, you, a real general builder can understand the, understood the secrets of building and construction and could coordinate other trades and. An incredible problem solver, and I think as like somebody like yourself, that is what you are so good at.

[00:18:44] Andy Graham: But somebody like me and and investors like us and lots of our listeners, that's very difficult. We solve different types of problems and just knowing that these problems do exist, they often do crop up, I think is really important. That one of the key things I want anybody to take away from today's episode is that we've got Will here, who's an expert saying that.

[00:19:02] Andy Graham: These things almost always happen. There's something and you've got to have a contingency for it and Will as an expert, you know, you obviously have these contingencies as someone who knows how to deal with them. So somebody like us who doesn't know how to deal with them, you know, it becomes increasingly important.

[00:19:17] Andy Graham: But I mean, I think that this all just highlights how important it is to have a really solid plan, and I would recommend where possible for anybody looking to do a project, think about using somebody like yourself Will, because you just take out so much of the risk and look. It might cost more your time to actually manage the project and coordinate all of these people and the risk that you have to take to juggle these sorts of challenges that could come up in your or the caseload.

[00:19:43] Andy Graham: There is a very real cost to that, and I think sometimes investors do overly focus on what that build cost is and actually overlook actually how much risk might be taken out by working with a particular person in a particular way. I think that that stuff is so important. I wanna ask you another question now.

[00:20:00] Andy Graham: From your perspective will as a contractor, what makes a good client contractor relationship? What sort of things do you like to have in place? What sort of people do you like to work with and, and how do you like to work with people? 

[00:20:12] Will Whittaker: Well, I mean, from my point of view, I always just try and be as transparent as I possibly can.

[00:20:17] Will Whittaker: Obviously mention the contingency there, I try and sort of flagged that up from day one. I think just being honest as well, and in Stan, in good stead, I've got a lot of repeat clients to the point where. I'll kind of just have a, an open discussion with him now. It's like when we first started quoting from him, it was like, right, well, I've had this quote from this person.

[00:20:34] Will Whittaker: Whereas now it's a lot more sort of a, a chat between the two of us. They don't want to involve other people, they don't wanna work with other people. So if you are happy, I'm happy type thing, which is great. Obviously quick payments is always a, a big help. Quick cash flow. Yeah, more cash flow. Then the project can move quicker, which is great.

[00:20:54] Will Whittaker: I think, I don't, from my point of view, the, the thing I like most is a client who, who understands, not necessarily an expert in construction or building, but understands stuff's gonna crop up and is realistic about it. And the key one for me is people having a real sort of realistic understanding of refurb costs and out they can.

[00:21:13] Will Whittaker: Spiral now. I mean, I'd always try and avoid additional work where I can, and sometimes clients will upgrade stuff, which increases the cost. But what I used to get a lot in the past with some guys who I used to work with doing HMOs, they were sort of source build, manage kind of guys who were working with a lot of investors from Hong Kong and stuff like that.

[00:21:34] Will Whittaker: So that was totally hands off. For the investor's point of view, I deal with a middleman. So what they'd do, they'd find this house and they'd take that to an investor and then they would say, look, you can buy it for that. And we think the refurb will be that. And then they, they'd sort of sell 'em the dream, not sell 'em the dream, but they would sort of sell them a percentage yield really.

[00:21:55] Will Whittaker: So if my refurb cost exceeded what, where they wanted it to be, it kind of reduced that percentage yield. So I would never budge on that. And they'd be like, right, well we can give you this job now at this. If you do that, we'll give you this one at this. And I'm like, right, so you've kind of undercut me on one.

[00:22:14] Will Whittaker: And as a reward for that, you are now offering to undercut me on another one. Like, what? Great, where do I sign? So I, I just would refuse to do it because I still had a lot of connections on the insurance side. And for me it's like, what do I wanna walk into a job off the bat, undercut less than what I want and I, when I know things are gonna crop up.

[00:22:33] Will Whittaker: So then it's gonna be a battle to get any contingency sort of signed off and I just wouldn't do it. So I just thought that's a big one for me, like having an understanding of how things just generally happen on site, basically, and, and what can happen. 

[00:22:46] Andy Graham: I think there's almost a point around just understanding that it needs to be fair and it needs to be right for both parties.

[00:22:52] Andy Graham: Otherwise, it, it just isn't going to work. I, I'll be honest, years gone by, I've really tried to drill prices down as far as possible, and actually it's come back and bitten me because there hasn't been enough in the job. And inevitably that's been very, very difficult for the contractor. And actually that problem has ultimately found its way back to me in, in just a different way.

[00:23:11] Andy Graham: Maybe there's been more variations that have come up where perhaps maybe been easier to suck that up. It's delayed the project, it's slowed things down. It's caused friction in the relationship, which just isn't good and it's not productive. There is a lot of risk for contractors, and I think particularly at the minute, and one of the things I want to talk to you about is how the industry's changed over the last four or five years, but in combination with your advice there, just understanding that.

[00:23:32] Andy Graham: the best agreement that you could have is one where everybody feels like they're winning because the biggest win is actually getting a job that finishes on time and looks exactly how you want and is fully compliant and doesn't give you any headaches. It might cost a few more quid than you hold, but I mean, what doesn't these days, it is the same when you down to the supermarket these days.

[00:23:51] Andy Graham: Absolutely. Yeah. But I think that that's so important and just Will, one other thing I just wanted to ask you about, I've got my opinions on this. And I think it's really important, but in terms of the contracts and paperwork you like to use with clients and also what you like to work with in terms of drawings and plans, like from a contractor's perspective, what do you like there?

[00:24:09] Andy Graham: What is it that makes you feel comfortable and confident that you could just take the keys and just run with a client's job and actually deliver it to an expectation that you've set that's actually gonna be deliverable for everybody?

[00:24:20] Will Whittaker: Well, obviously a decent contract is fairly basic on a an HMO level, but it protects me and the client as well. Obviously decent drawings. I, I won't work with inferior drawings. I've had an instance last year where I actually had to get another architect in after the build had started. 'cause the drawings were just so poor, just cat. I basically said to the client, look, you're gonna end up in a mess here because no one knows what they're doing.

[00:24:46] Will Whittaker: They were terrible. So moved him on and then a payment schedule that is not set in stone, but we can sort of roughly work to, obviously the quicker we move through things, the quicker the the money comes. Yeah. And as I said, just a client who sort of understands and is willing to listen to what I'm telling.

[00:25:05] Will Whittaker: Right. Not what I tell 'em, but advise them.

[00:25:08] Andy Graham: It sounds so simple, but actually having a good set of drawings are really well thought set of drawings just makes. Your life's so much easier, doesn't it? It means the work is so much more predictable and it's these sorts of delays. Having to get another architect in really difficult.

[00:25:21] Andy Graham: You've gotta consider the measurements that you've originally taken. It's all of them. Gotta be repackaged up, issued, signed off, approved. Sometimes there's changes in amendments that need to make. It can be really time consuming and certainly expensive. I mean, I have recommended for a long time, all of my clients, everybody I work with, and our members of the community.

[00:25:38] Andy Graham: I think a lot of us like to think we're experts with floor plans and we can sketch some new floor plans on top of, you know, some existing floor plans from right move that isn't gonna do the job. Guys, what Will wants is a proper set of measured plans, regularized drawings, if you've got compliance of building regs and things like that.

[00:25:54] Andy Graham: Uh, m and e plans, I'm sure, and maybe even an ideal world with elevations of like where sockets are and things like that. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where do you actually want the TV socket? Mm-hmm. It's great saying I want a TV socket in this room, but what will, at what height? It sounds so simple, but that stuff makes your life so much easier and it makes it so much easier for you to price on as well, doesn't it Will if you actually have that sort of detail up front?

[00:26:16] Will Whittaker: Well, that's the thing. It's like you'll price from a decent set of drawings and your price is 99% accurate. Then if you are getting poor drawings, the client might have saved five, 600 quid on an architect. It's gonna cost them between 5 and 10 K for additional stuff that's gonna crop up that have been left off the drawings.

[00:26:33] Will Whittaker: And then it's like, oh, well, I, I weren't expecting that. And it's like, well, can't I be cake eating? Can you, 

[00:26:40] Andy Graham: Will, let's talk about how the industry has changed a little bit over the last five years. I mean, obviously we've all been grappling with inflation, but nobody, like, more so than contractors, materials going back.

[00:26:50] Andy Graham: So pre COVID d. How has that changed and how much of a challenge has it been for somebody like yourself and what does that actually look like in terms of projects? Now, obviously we're all getting squeezed everywhere, but is it still as tough as it eased up a little bit? I mean, just give us a flavor of that and I'm interested to know just purely from a business perspective, how the last few years have been for somebody like yourself.

[00:27:11] Will Whittaker: I think day to day, when you're in it, you have to just kind of get on with it, don't you? And amend you prices, but when you look back, that's when I think it looks a bit more scary because. It's like, wow, some, I've looked at my rates. I, I regularly go through my rates at like Travis Perkins for example.

[00:27:26] Will Whittaker: 'cause we always creep up and I'll be like, look, how can you justify these? It's just, I don't, is the honest answer. It's the mind boggles because I sometimes you think it's a wonder I'm making any margin. Because even in the past, like I've had a small variation on a job and I've looked at it and I've thought, right, that's my material cost.

[00:27:43] Will Whittaker: It'll cost me that in labor plus a small percentage. And I'll look at the end figure and think. Seems expensive. That, and then I'm remembering, but look, the bulk of the cost is there, is the materials. And I'm thinking I've got absolutely no control over that. Even to the point where I thought, right, I'll just truck the materials in, put the labor on at cost, and then put the labor on, and then put a markup on it.

[00:28:04] Will Whittaker: And I'm thinking, I can't run a business like that. But then it's like this bad's been tough, gotta be honest. Very tough at times. 

[00:28:12] Andy Graham: I see it from the other side as well. Bloody hell. That is so expensive. Right? And again, having that relationship with your contractor where you just trust that, where you're able to trust them implicitly because ultimately that's what the cost is.

[00:28:20] Andy Graham: And yes, there's gotta be a little bit and it's gotta work for everybody. But you're right. Looking back, that's when it's scary. You look at what we were able to maybe build and convert for six years ago, and you look at it now and it's really scary and actually. The really tough thing is that that's not been reciprocated in terms of values of properties.

[00:28:38] Andy Graham: That's where the real struggle is for investors, and that's just something that we've all got to suck up. It is what it is. Like you said, we can't change the price of materials. We can't change the price of labor. The margins have changed. They are a bit tighter. I'm hopeful that through. The next year, things will start to improve in terms of valuations on properties and things like that.

[00:28:56] Andy Graham: I think things have slumped a little bit and, and we're due a bit of a sort of an uptick, but that's definitely the case and we've been feeling it on all fronts. It's not just conversion of bill costs, it's actually maintenance as well. That's been a really big one, just like the operational, the opex of running assets at the minute.

[00:29:11] Andy Graham: So I guess. I was just interested how you've coped with it and I think the way you answered it, I was really honest there, but it's across the board. So for anyone struggling and anyone getting prices, and I think that this is important, I think for anybody getting prices on jobs at the minute, anyone listening to the show, if you're getting prices back and you think it's better than you expected or you know it's too good to be true, it probably is because the reality is it.

[00:29:33] Andy Graham: Very expensive to build at the minute. Yeah, and it's not actually because people like Will are just trying to take loads and loads of money off us, like good people, good contractors. It's actually just because that is what it costs to build that is the cost of materials in the UK at the minute, and it's really, really difficult to swallow.

[00:29:49] Andy Graham: Absolutely. It's tough, isn't it? I mean, with that in mind, and this is something I've become increasingly conscious of the last few years. What solutions will you come across to maybe help some of your clients find cost saving solutions and exercises? So things that perhaps don't necessarily compromise.

[00:30:10] Andy Graham: The spec or maybe what might be achievable in terms of the property's value or the property's rent, but actually do cost less to build. Is there anything that you have found in your toolkit, for lack of a a better word, excuses the pun, but anything that you found that could be good cost saving exercises for investors and landlords, but actually don't compromise the end product?

[00:30:29] Will Whittaker: Well, I mean, it's tough really because it is kind of, without sort of reducing the level of program or the level of spec, then it's tough. I mean, I'll always sort of. For example, second fix plumbing. I say, right, well we've got these toilets, but we could look at these toilets instead and you might save X amount on them, but they're not massively inferior.

[00:30:48] Will Whittaker: I mean, aside from that sort of like, let's just tail the wet areas only and a splash back over the basin rather than sort of 1.2 around the en suite and, and stuff like that. I mean, it's fairly obvious really. The more you do, the more it costs. And one thing that I certainly won't do is. Put inferior stuff in, so I'm not gonna put like sanitary ware in that's gonna be knackered in 18 months.

[00:31:11] Will Whittaker: I just won't do it because once I step foot in there, my name's on that building and I'm gonna be associated with that ongoing. So I won't compromise on stuff like that at all. 

[00:31:21] Andy Graham: That was a great example. Just tile. The wet areas don't do everything else, and it might not be how we want to do it for our own home.

[00:31:26] Andy Graham: We might want a full tile bathroom. Mm-hmm. Or 1.2 all the way around, but actually that's how I've done en suites for about five or six years. Yeah. Because it starts to get really expensive. Yeah. And actually it's not made one iota of difference in terms of the rent that we're able to collect. It can still look fantastic if you do it well.

[00:31:41] Andy Graham: You choose the right tiles and the right grout. And like you say, the right sanitary wear and it's a really sensible cost saving exercise. Flooring will, I think this has always been an interesting one. There's obviously lots of different ways that you could skim this cat. You put a solid floor down and, and go with LVT or do you put a laminate floor down or have you got any thoughts based on experience on this sort of stuff?

[00:32:00] Andy Graham: Materials. Do you like to use durability, what you can get in terms of a bang for your buck? What advice might you share on, on something like flooring?

[00:32:08] Will Whittaker: So I'm not a lover of laminate flooring, particularly in like high traffic areas like A HMO communal hallway. We used to do laminate in the sulfur ones in the early days, but not touched any laminate for a long time.

[00:32:21] Will Whittaker: And then obviously at the other end of the spectrum, you've got LVT flooring, which is just through the roof these days because it's become more and more popular than the herringbone style stuff. So what I've done before I got into HMOs, I used to do a lot of. As I said, insurance and commercial work.

[00:32:36] Will Whittaker: We used to do nursing homes, so I had some really good commercial flooring contractors, so I use like a commercial grade vinyl, which is yes, really, really heavily stuck down. You get a lot of like wood plank effects, LVT, herringbone effects and stuff like that. So we've just been using that and, and the results are great.

[00:32:54] Will Whittaker: Really, they are good and it is very hard wearing, so that's kind of like a happy medium between a ridiculously expensive LVT. Which you'd probably put in your own house. And then at the other end, laminate, which we all know piss slope here in Manchester with the weather that we get people walking in with wet feet is not gonna last a massive amount of time, is it?

[00:33:15] Will Whittaker: So yeah, that's how we've combat that and, and like I say, I'm really pleased with some of the results. We've had some great results out there. It looks great.

[00:33:21] Andy Graham: It's funny you say that. I've done this myself. I've used it in bathrooms. Mm-hmm. Particularly, uh, en suite communal bathrooms and HMOs for a long time, a good sort of fell back, cushioned sort of commercial vinyl.

[00:33:33] Andy Graham: And I've found that they've been so, so durable. And if you looked at one of my photos, you would not have a clue if you put your eye right up against it. Or you touched it. Yeah. You'll probably realize, but they're grained, so they, yeah, yeah, yeah. They look absolutely superb. And I've actually, again, I have also put them down in high traffic areas and I was worried, the first time I did it, I actually put it down for the first time on a floor.

[00:33:56] Andy Graham: I've got a one building I own. It's really old. It's from like 18 somethings. And it used to be a piggery once upon a time. And you can probably imagine solid floors throughout upper floors as well. But the ground floor, solid floor, it's not level. And it was gonna be a big job to level it. And part of the cool thing about this particular property is it's massive and it's got some cool character, but what sort of a floor do we put and what do we do with the floor?

[00:34:18] Andy Graham: And it was like the doors and things, it was, it was really problematic. So in the end, I just went with. Sort of commercial grade vinyl, and I was worried that it was gonna be such a high traffic area and a big HMO that it would just get battered and it still looks absolutely brilliant. I can't believe it.

[00:34:34] Andy Graham: It's really changed the way that I think about products. I think we've all got a bit of a there's almost a bit of a snobbery about certain things that I think some of absolutely have, and I think that that's a great piece of advice. And do I think that. We could have got a penny more for the rent had we have put down some sort of an LVT or something like that?

[00:34:52] Andy Graham: No, not a chance. Absolutely no way. And of course, the labor to fit it, it's so much cheaper to fit, isn't it? Which is, I think a lot of people forget just how much fitting is involved in something. Like putting an an if you want an LVT down and you want a good subfloor and you've gotta do all that work and then actually fit the LVT and it, it's a lot of work and a lot of labor, isn't it?

[00:35:11] Will Whittaker: Yeah, but then also you look at putting an LVT floor down, I would always sit the skirting boards on top of it afterwards. So then you have to, yes, you have to then wait. Until you've got your flooring down, get your skirts on, and then you decorate in again. I just think I'll just get the commercial vinyl down straight up to the skirting boards.

[00:35:27] Andy Graham: Yeah, absolutely. And if you do a volume of projects, if you're a busy investor and you're doing a lot of projects, it's funny, but these sorts of things are being able to get on projects and get off them very quickly. It reduces your risk. It allows you to keep your contractor busy. If you've got a good relationship, you want to keep them busy.

[00:35:43] Andy Graham: This sort of stuff is actually really important. I guess will, you've got a number of clients that you said you repeat work with and Actually I, one of my clients that I work with, I know that you, you are his builder. Yeah. I didn't actually know that at first. I think he actually told me that we had the podcast arranged.

[00:35:58] Andy Graham: I'd seen his stuff and, and obviously stuff is really, really incredible. I guess it's probably helpful for you and And it's certainly helpful. This is something I encourage all my clients to do, but work almost to a pallet. Have a pallet of materials that you like to just work with. Yeah, rinse it and repeat it.

[00:36:13] Andy Graham: Use the same sort of sandwich you wear, use the same sorts of kitchens. Maybe you'll change the cool, use the same sorts of work tops, use the same sorts of flooring and things like that. Do you like to work with that? Do you find that that does help accelerate programs? 

[00:36:23] Will Whittaker: Yeah, I do. I have a little lockup and stuff can go in there, so I might have an eight bed on I only need six toilets, for example, or seven toilets. Yeah, I do keep stuff, but not like wholesale really. A lot of people, I'll go into the tile shops and they're like, oh, if you check a pallet, it can do it here at this. It's great in theory, but then I'm always keeping an eye on cashflow as well, so it's like they wanna be shelling out for a pallet of tiles, which is double what I need now when the other half is probably gonna sit in my lockup force four to six months maybe.

[00:36:59] Andy Graham: Yeah. I guess there's some logistics to think about as well. Yeah. Yeah, balancing act will, I've got one more question for you, and I think this is the biggie for our listeners who have got projects themselves elsewhere in the country, what advice would you share on helping people try and find the right contractor?

[00:37:12] Andy Graham: I've got a method, and I would say it's notoriously difficult to find good contractors, but what advice would you share as a contractor for anybody trying to do that right now?

[00:37:22] Will Whittaker: I would say you've got a trust. Contractor's reputation. I think the have reputation for a reason. So obviously try and find someone of a good reputation.

[00:37:33] Will Whittaker: Don't take their word for anything. Initially, I would ask to see their other work. I mean, I've taken potential new clients around, previous jobs I've done. I've had no issue at all with doing that. Totally transparent in that respect. So if they are doing what they say they're doing and have done what this.

[00:37:53] Will Whittaker: They've said they've done, they should have no hesitation in showing you that physically get speak to some of our clients of theirs as well because. Listen, I'm no angel. Nobody's perfect. I would imagine my clients have had issues with me that we've resolved and stuff like that. You know, it happens day to day, nothing serious.

[00:38:10] Will Whittaker: Obviously, day to day, minor stuff, but just get a feel for that with the clients. And the key thing for me, get a contract in place and stick to payment terms because you don't wanna find yourself where you have paid too much out too soon, and then you battle in to get somebody back if you stagger the payments correctly.

[00:38:30] Will Whittaker: Then that should be enough to sort of have a successful project because I know how cashflow works from, so from my side of things, if somebody was to sort of take miles too much money out of a project to early doors, then they have to start taking other stuff on. Then they're spreading themselves too thin, which is why I spend a lot of time talking to my bookkeeper, signing front of this computer that I'm at now, because I do as much important work here as I do out there.

[00:38:54] Will Whittaker: So yeah, just make sure you're doing your, your own work on people is the main bit of advice and, and like I say, just. Don't trust everything they say off the bat. Find out for yourself. Yeah. It really does. Yeah.

[00:39:04] Andy Graham: I think, I mean, the word I would use to summarize it is due diligence. Absolutely. It's so important.

[00:39:08] Andy Graham: I think a lot of contractors and are the ones who are maybe not quite as reliable. Yeah. They can be very good at sweet talking. I have found you're really quite convincing. They're experts in that and they can make you feel very comfortable very quickly, and it's really dangerous. I encourage everybody to have a number of conversations.

[00:39:25] Andy Graham: Do all of that due diligence. Yeah. Go and see their projects. Mm-hmm. Get the testimonials, monitor and observe their work. Watch them on social media. What are they doing? How do they conduct themselves? Are other people showcasing and sharing their work? Is the social proof it sounds really, again, really simple but so important.

[00:39:41] Andy Graham: Absolutely. And I don't think Will that enough people put enough time into that process, and I think it's because they're often rushing to find somebody who can get on the job quickly and they're prioritizing that. I spent. The last job I attended for, to be fair, says a big project of about 20 flats, but I spent nearly a year going through a full tender process, very transparent upfront that it was a job that wasn't gonna happen until next year, but.

[00:40:05] Andy Graham: Enough time to have several meetings to come and see them, to just watch their work, to keep an eye on things, just to get a good feel for them, and then work through pricing at a sensible pace, not needing everything immediately. And I think where anyone could do that, I would just encourage them to do it because it makes everybody's life so much easier.

[00:40:22] Andy Graham: And the biggest risk of all this. It's not paying a little bit more for the work that you ultimately get done, but it's actually paying for anything that turns out wrong. Yeah. Somebody who walks off site, somebody who takes too much money up front and makes it very difficult for you with extras and that and things like that.

[00:40:40] Andy Graham: Will, I think you shared some absolutely superb advice. I'm sure our listeners today will have found that really, really, really useful Now, unfortunately. There is only one of you and you're based around Greater Manchester. So I mean, for anybody who wants to just follow you, you've got a great social media channel.

[00:40:57] Andy Graham: Maybe for anybody who wants to talk to you about some jobs, where would the best place be for them to come and find you?

[00:41:03] Will Whittaker: Instagram, definitely. I'm post on there as much as I can, uh, a couple of times a week, and I try and be as responsive to dms as I can as well, so for sure. Instagram initially. Yeah. And your channel Will, just to clarify.

[00:41:17] Andy Graham: Remind us your Instagram handle. @will_the_property_mank. There you go, guys. Cool. Will, thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure. I'm gonna keep an eye on all of your projects. I hope we get the opportunity to work with you at some point in the future, but that will be, I'm afraid to somebody else's detriment, I'm sure.

[00:41:33] Andy Graham: But thanks for sharing all of your advice today. It's been brilliant and really, really valuable, and I'm looking forward to seeing you do loads more of these really cool projects that you're doing for people. 

Will Whittaker: Perfect. Thank you very much for having me. It's been great.

[00:41:52] Andy Graham: That is it for today's episode, guys. Thank you for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Will and I. Now, it is, of course, Christmas Eve, or at least it's Christmas Eve when today's episode is coming out. If you're listening to this now, I wanna wish you a very, very merry Christmas. If you're listening to it after Christmas, then I hope you had a wonderful Christmas. I hope you spoiled yourself and your family, and I hope Santa brought you a few HMOs. Maybe they'll come later in the year in 2026, but look, hope you're having a great time, a wonderful Christmas break. And don't forget, of course, that I'll be right back here in the very same place next week as always, so don't forget to join me then for another installment of the HMO Podcast.