The Power of Catalytic Leadership with Dr. William Attaway

In this episode, I talk to Dr. William Attaway on:
✨  What is Catalytics Leadership
✨  How does leadership affect your business and why is it so important for today's leaders
✨ How to incorporate catalytic leadership in your business as a solopreneur/small business owner
✨ How to avoid the most common mistakes leaders make
✨ How to be a leader that people will look up to

Don't forget to subscribe to my podcast and leave a review if you liked this episode! ✨

About our guest:

Dr. William Attaway is a Leadership Coach for Catalytic Leadership, LLC, a company he founded to help leaders to INTENTIONALLY grow and thrive. He has served in local church ministry for over 25 years, and is currently the Lead Pastor of Southview Community Church, a church in Herndon, Virginia (near Washington, D.C.) where he has served since 2004. He holds a Ph.D. in Old Testament (with an emphasis in Biblical Backgrounds and Archaeology), and he loves to read and speak about leadership, organizational change, archaeology, and building up people and teams. His newest book is Catalytic Leadership (January, 2022). Originally from Birmingham, Alabama, William now lives in northern Virginia with his beautiful wife Charlotte and their two daughters.

Links for Dr. William Attaway:

1. Free Book for Podcast listeners: https://www.catalyticleadershipbook.com/
2. https://www.linkedin.com/in/williamattaway/
3. https://catalyticleadership.net/

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Transcript

Prithvi Madhukar: 0:04

What's up everyone? Welcome back to the marketing Nomad show. It's your favourite marketer and podcast host. My name is Prit. With me today I've got a very special guest, Dr. William Attaway. Now William Attaway is a leadership coach for catalytic leadership LLC, a company he founded to help leaders to intentionally grow and thrive. He has served in local church ministry for over 25 years, and is currently the lead pastor of southview community church, a church in Hernan word journey, sorry, Virginia, near Washington, DC, where he has served since 2004. He holds a PhD in Old Testament with an emphasis in biblical backgrounds and archaeology. And he loves to read speak about leadership, organisational change archaeology and building up people and teams. His newest book is catalytic leadership that was released in January 2022 are originally from Birmingham, Alabama, William now resides in Northern Virginia with his beautiful wife, Charlotte, and their two daughters. William, how are you doing today?

Dr. William Attaway: 1:11

I'm doing great. It's such an honour to be with you. Thanks for having me on your show.

Prithvi Madhukar: 1:14

Thank you so much for being here. All righty. William, I'm pretty excited to get into today's topic. And that is about catalytic leadership. But before we get into that, can we first get to know who you are? And what is it that you do from you?

Dr. William Attaway: 1:29

Yeah, sure. So as a leadership coach, what I do is I help leaders to choose to intentionally grow and thrive, as you said. So that's from entrepreneurs and solopreneurs, small business owners, C suite leaders, educators, government contractors, and employees. All of these I have served and have been my clients, as I help them figure out what it is that's holding them back. So often, a leader gets to a point where the things that were working, that got them to where they are, all of a sudden don't seem to be working anymore, something seems to be in the way, and I help them figure out what that is. And what it is that's holding them back. What it is, is keeping them from achieving that next level that they know is possible. So by asking the right questions, and helping them to gain in their self awareness and understanding, I helped those leaders grow beyond where they are today so that they can achieve more than they have been.

Prithvi Madhukar: 2:18

Oh, that sounds exciting. And I'm super excited for how this episode is gonna go. So before we get into, you know how people can get past where they are, how to move forward, let's first talk about what exactly is catalytic leadership, Wm.

Dr. William Attaway: 2:33

It actually comes from a part of my story. When I went to college, I went as a pharmacy major. And I worked in a pharmacy in high school, I intended to go on and complete my pharmacy studies, and work and help people in a tangible way like that. Got through chemistry and organic chemistry, got to organic chemistry and decided this is not really what I want to do for the rest of my life. So I changed gears. But in my brief chemistry studies, I learned about the power of a catalyst. Catalyst is something that you introduce to insight or to accelerate significant change with the purpose of making a significant impact. And I've been a student of leadership since I was 15, when I attended my first leadership conference, and so for over 30 years, I've been studying leaders. And in thinking about that, that definition of a catalyst, you know, something that insights or accelerate significant change, to make a significant impact. I thought, you know, every great leader that I've ever studied or learned from, or gotten to interview and talk to, or even in my own journey, every single one of those would resonate with that description. They get that they want to make an impact. They want to incite or accelerate significant change in their organisation in their business in their team and their department, because they want to make that impact. And so I started to think, what are the threads? I've been coaching leaders for over 20 years, what are the threads that run consistently through a lot of those coaching conversations, you know, no matter where you lead, and what context you lead, whether it's, you know, working for the government, or as a contractor, or whether it's an educator or whether it's a solopreneur, the same principles of leadership apply. And so thinking through so many of those conversations, I found that there were 12 threads that were consistent that ran through so many of those. And so that's what I wrote about and that's what I mean by catalytic leadership. It's these 12 principles that really cause someone to become a leader that makes a difference.

Prithvi Madhukar: 4:34

That's amazing. I think that's a perfect definition to sum it all up. Because I think when we think of leadership, at least in the traditional sense, I think that one often mistakes that as hostility or you know, as abusive of that power. But what you're trying to say is that you become the leader first as in you show your credibility you show you know, you take The lead you show yourself as an example, and then other others follow. Now, what are some of the positive impacts of catalytic leadership versus what people would normally, you know, the perception of leadership, the negative perception of leadership.

Dr. William Attaway: 5:17

I think some people have this perception of leadership like exactly what you said this this abusive model this, this dictatorial model where somebody just sits in an office and fires off directives and missives and do this, and don't do this, and how dare you do this? That's not leadership, there may have been a day when that was considered leadership, I don't think so I think that's something else. Leadership is about learning to pour into the people that you lead and invest in them to accomplish something together. That's leadership. So when I think about catalytic leadership, you're doing that very intentionally, because you want to see a significant impact over time, you want to see change in individuals on your team and in your organisation. So when I think about this, I think I think it's really about investing in people. It's about investing in the teams that you lead, seeing them not as, as cogs in a machine, you know, as people who do tasks, now you see them as fully orbed people's 3d people who matter. And that's how you treat them. That's how you lead them. That is what makes a leader, I believe, catalytic.

Prithvi Madhukar: 6:22

That's awesome. And when you say investing in people, can you give us a few examples of so that it's a little bit more clear? How can my audience invest in their teams and invest in the people who are working for them?

Dr. William Attaway: 6:36

I think it begins with listening. I think listening is one of the most underrated leadership skills that very few people talk about. Very few people intentionally develop. When I do one on ones with my direct reports on the team that I lead, do those every week, not because I'm bored and have nothing else to do. But because I want to listen and create these times intentionally so that I can listen to them, not just what they say, but what's behind what they say what's underneath it. I want to hear what matters to them, not just in the office, but what matters to them as an individual. I want to hear their goals, their dreams, their hopes, where do you want to be in 510 20 years, because part of my job as a leader is to help them get there to invest in them to pour into them. But all of that begins by listening. That's a choice. And it costs you nothing financially to do that. This is something that anybody can do. You just have to choose to do it and invest your time.

Prithvi Madhukar: 7:35

Oh, I love that example. Because you know, when people hear the word invest in other people, usually the first thought that comes to your mind is money. And then you know, sometimes solopreneurs though they say I don't have that money yet, but your example was right on, you know, sometimes it's not about monetary investment. Even listening is just so underrated. And it's so powerful. And I absolutely loved that you mentioned that. Now coming to you know your book. Let's talk a little bit about that. Can you tell us the story behind why you started writing your book?

Dr. William Attaway: 8:07

Sure, it really came out of so many of the coaching conversations that I've had over these last 20 plus years. My goal is to put these principles in the hands of people so they can do something with them. I want to see people accelerate change in their own leadership, I want to see them make a significant impact where they are. And you know, I do a lot of one on one coaching, I do some group coaching. But the value of writing things down and pushing it out to a broader audience means that more people can benefit. So that's really why I wrote the book to try to get these principles into as many hands as I can so that more people can benefit. I think that what Craig Groeschel says is so right. When a leader gets better, everybody benefits everybody on that team in that department in that organisation, the mission benefits all because you invested in that leader. And that's what I do.

Prithvi Madhukar: 8:57

That's amazing. And can you share maybe two or three principles from your book? Just a sneak peek of them?

Dr. William Attaway: 9:03

Sure. The first one, the first chapter is, I think the most important one, it's what I call the non negotiable when it comes to this. And that is the cultivation of a teachable spirit. That is the humility of walking into any circumstance, any situation, any conversation, and acknowledging. I don't know everything. I want to listen, I want to learn, I believe, with all of my being that you can learn from anybody. Sometimes you learn what not to do, but that can be incredibly valuable. I want to walk into every circumstance in my life in my leadership. I want to walk in with that understanding with that spirit. But that is an intentional choice I get to make every single day or not. So what when I'm coaching leaders, I challenged them in this and I say you get to choose this and not only do you get to choose it for you But other people that you lead are watching you, and they are never going to lead in something you're not modelling, they're never going to follow you, if you're not modelling this, if you are modelling it, you will find that more of them will follow that as well. So if you want your people to be more teachable, if you want them to have a learning posture, you got to start with you, it starts with a leader. That is something again, that doesn't cost you anything. There's no financial cost here. It's a decision, but it's a decision you have to make every day. It's intentional. It involves the people that you spend time with the environments that you spend time in the workshops, seminars, the conferences, the podcast, that you listen to the books that you read, all of this influences whether you are going to maintain and cultivate an intentionally teachable spirit or not.

Prithvi Madhukar: 10:49

Wow, that is just absolutely so powerful. I hope you guys are writing notes, because I definitely am writing notes, as this interview goes by. And I do want to, you know specifically mentioned that the fact that people find it so hard to say, I don't know everything. I think it's there's a lot of pressure on us as entrepreneurs. And of course, when you're a coach, when you're a consultant, you are supposed to be an expert, how do we navigate around that mind block of not accepting that we don't know everything?

Dr. William Attaway: 11:22

I think part of it involves the people that we spend time with, you know, just this week wrote an article about blind spots about leadership blind spots. And there's some great research on this that indicates that statistically, on average, leaders have 3.4 blind spots. Right? The thing about a blind spot is you don't know you have it? You don't know your blind spot? Yes. But you know, who does? The people around you? That's how you know your blind spot? That is true. But are you asking them? Are you listening? Are you teachable enough to receive it, when they share it with you. And this is this is one of the things that I challenge leaders on is is you have to create an environment where people are going to feel not only free to give you that level of honesty, but in fact invited to give you that love, are you going to value it? Are you going to push back on and argue with them and tell them ah, you know, he's talking about the environment you create with your words with your attitude matters. That's that's one element. Another element is honestly a coach, my coach, I've had a leadership coach for years, the value there is that my coach helps me see what I can't see. The fact is, you can't see the whole picture when you're in the frame. And all of us are in our own frame. We need somebody who's going to stand outside of that, who can see what we can't see. And who can ask us questions to help us grow in our self awareness and our understanding so that we can address those blind spots.

Prithvi Madhukar: 12:49

I think you absolutely nailed it, especially because we can't see the whole picture. Because I think we're also very emotionally attached to the outcome to that process. We have invested so much time, effort, energy, and most of us have taken more risks to become entrepreneurs and business owners. So I think what you're saying is absolutely right. But you know, what I wanted to kind of stress upon is how if I am not I mean, I am an entrepreneur, but how do I come to the mindset of accepting that? I don't know everything, like what are some of the actual steps that I can, you know, maybe train myself to? If someone says Purdue, you know, this, my immediate reaction is Yes, I know, but sometimes I might not know it. So how do I bring myself to acknowledge that I have my own limitations? And there will be some things that I don't know.

Dr. William Attaway: 13:41

It begins, I think it begins internally, like you have to you have to every day, affirm that and say, you know, I don't know everything. And I'm never going to know everything. And we have to acknowledge that this is something that I'll say to my team frequently. One of the things that they hear frequently for me is I don't know, I don't know. You decide, right? I want to empower you and enable you to make a decision because I don't know the answer to this particular situation. You decide, that's enabling that's empowering, with the team that I'm leading. But it also lets them know that I don't know everything they need to know that. But more than that, I need to remember. That's perfect. That's it, the books that I read, are going to be books that challenge and stretch me about things that I don't understand yet. You know, when I when I come across something in a book like that, you know what that reminds me of? That I don't know everything.

Prithvi Madhukar: 14:39

That's true. That's, that's absolutely beautifully put. Thank you so much, William. So that was number one. What are the other two concepts, principles that are in your book that I would love to hear about? Yes.

Dr. William Attaway: 14:52

Another one is to discover your wiring as a leader. You know, most of us are familiar with the different personality inventories and types that are Around the Myers Briggs, the disc you know, Patrick Lencioni, new working genius model, so many different profiles and tools that can help us gain understanding. But I found that that some hums leaders may have that information, but it hasn't moved them toward the actual transformation that they need. It will we begin as leaders, the natural tendency is for us to copy leaders that we admire, right, we begin to emulate them. Sometimes it's the words that we say the vocabulary we use, I've even seen leaders emulate the dress of the people that they admire. You know, that's, that's understandable. At first, when you're a young emerging leader, that's normal. The problem is when we stay there, because over time, what's going to happen is you're just going to become a bad copy of a great leader, instead of being the leader that you are wired to be, this is why I think it's so important that a leader discovers their own wiring, how is it that you are designed? What are your gifts, your skills, your passions, your talents, your personality? And how does that combine to create the DNA of your leadership, this is what I help leaders do, I help them discover this. But there's a point to it. The point is that they can begin to design a growth plan designed around their wiring. It also is a stepping stone to the next step, which is to discover the wiring of the people that they lead, you discover the wiring of your direct reports, you're going to know how to lead them better than you ever have, you're going to know how to invest in and equip them and empower them to achieve their goals, which is going to make them lean in to what you're doing in a way they never, ever have. Discovering your wiring is I think one of the secret sauce tools that can help a leader catapult beyond the effectiveness of where they've been,

Prithvi Madhukar: 16:47

oh, this is so true. I mean, when you're saying it in my head, I just went Tick, tick tick, because this is definitely one of the biggest lessons that I personally had to learn. And I learned with a lot of effort, actually, because I think when you're a newbie entrepreneur, like I was three years ago, it's very natural to emulate all of your leaders and what may be their strengths may not be your strengths. And I had to learn that the hard way. And I think this is also something that I've actually spoken about in length, because there's a huge process for me to learn in my upcoming book. But absolutely, because I think that the factors that affect them, the resources that they have, and do not have may be very different from what your personality is, what your resources are, what your strengths are. And I think it's important, I love the way you say it discover your wiring. I think that just absolutely nails the point home, what are maybe one or two actionable steps for people to find out what exactly is their wiring? Because I think we are so attached to emulating the people we respect and admire that sometimes it might be hard for us to say okay, well, that's their strength, and I got to figure out mine. So what are some of the steps that they can take?

Dr. William Attaway: 17:57

No, I think the DISC profile is is used on a lot of different places and a lot of different contexts. But I found a lot of value in it. And I'll often use this with coaching clients. To begin some conversations, it's going to indicate areas of strength, it's going to indicate areas of weakness, both of which are important to discover in your wiring. I mentioned a minute ago, Patrick Lencioni is new working genius profile. This is a newer tool, but one that I've used extensively with our team. And I found a lot of value with this, the premise is that we all want to we tend to focus on our weaknesses thinking that if we can just get our weaknesses up to par, you know, well, then we'll be better and more well rounded Lencioni, his model focuses around your strength area, you have an area where you are a genius every one of us does. Okay, so understanding that if you can move more of your time and energy and effort into the area where you are a genius, and learn to delegate what you're not good at things that are areas of working frustration, for instance, then, hey, this is only going to help you be more effective and grow in your leadership. These are these are tools that can help us discover this. I think over time, this is where a coach is helpful. And you know, whether it's me or another code, this is a coach that's going to help you who is for you. And it's going to help you say okay, this is where this profile or this tool indicates I am. But where do you want to be? Where what's your goal? What are you after? 10 years from now? What does print look like? Like, let's let's let's figure this out, and then we can begin to build the path to get you there intentionally, because the fact is no one ever wakes up and says, Oh, wow, I'm a fully mature developed leader. I don't know how that. I didn't mean for that to happen. But here I am. It never happened like that. It's only when we are intentional. And this is why I think these tools useful as they are, are simply an element of the puzzle. Like they're just a piece. This is important. It's a process that has to be worked through to help you not only discover it, but figure out how that wire and can be leveraged for the benefit of whatever you're trying to accomplish whatever you're trying to lead, whatever your mission or your business is.

Prithvi Madhukar: 20:08

I think I think it's absolutely right. Because I did I've not actually heard of the working genius profile, and I will definitely check it out after this. What is it called? Again?

Dr. William Attaway: 20:19

Working genius.

Prithvi Madhukar: 20:20

Yeah, working the virtues genius profile, who

Dr. William Attaway: 20:22

is a Patrick Lencioni.

Prithvi Madhukar: 20:24

Okay, perfect, I'm definitely going to make a note of that. I'll even put the link in the description box below. And I really liked the fact that you said that it's important to understand our weaknesses, and also our strengths. I think that so many times we're so focused, oh, my God, this is my weakness. I gotta fix this. I gotta fix this. But we don't realise that we got to leverage our strengths as well. And I think I think absolutely, you brought that to our attention. And I absolutely am, you know, quite grateful that you are telling us, it's not only your weaknesses, it's also your strengths. And what is the third thing that we probably need to keep in mind, William,

Dr. William Attaway: 21:00

about discovering your wiring? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think I think the the importance of this, again, goes beyond just you, it's important to know that about yourself, because that's going to help you chart your path. But imagine if the people that you lead if you begin to discover theirs, and help them discover theirs, and then help to chart a course with them, not for them, but with them. Imagine what value that communicates to the people that you lead. I think one of the challenges in the modern day is that people feel like they are not valued in the workplace. They feel like they are not seen and heard, like they could be. What I'm arguing for what I'm proposing is that by helping them to discover their wiring, like you've done yourself and your own leadership, helping them, you're not only going to help your organisation to thrive, because you are your business is going to see the results of this. But you're going to help them understand that you valued them. And I gotta tell you, that's going to have a tremendous impact on retention, that's going to have a tremendous impact on people's people sticking with and valuing being a part of your team. And I think that's something every one of us needs to keep in mind, I don't care if you lead a team of one or a team of 1000, this is valuable, this is useful. And this is going to be reflected in the bottom line.

Prithvi Madhukar: 22:28

So I just want to put a note out there that you know, some of my followers, they are solopreneurs. And they probably don't even have a team. What does catalytic leadership do for them?

Dr. William Attaway: 22:40

In this case, for discovering your wiring, I think what you want to do is focus on your wiring, figure that out first. And that really is the first step, I would never propose that a leader try to help discover somebody else's wiring on their team before they've done the work themselves. Right. So you get you get the opportunity to do this. Now, before you build a team. Imagine how much farther ahead you're gonna be when it comes time to build that team. Because they're going to come into an organisation that is healthy, they're going to come onto a team, where the leader is in a healthy spot knows themselves knows their strengths, and is committed to leveraging those, I think I think solopreneurs are in a perfect spot to begin to leverage this particular principle.

Prithvi Madhukar: 23:22

I think you absolutely hit the right spots. Because without that firm foundation of understanding ourselves first, it's impossible for us to even attract the right kind of people who would work for us. And I think this was perfect. So even if you are a solopreneur, or you're a small business owner, catalytic leadership does help you and it's really, really important. Not really, um, I just wanted to ask, what are maybe one or two mistakes that you see leaders out there making, whether they're solopreneurs, or small business owners?

Dr. William Attaway: 23:54

Let's key into the principles that we've talked about, you know, the teachable spirit, the intentional cultivation of that, I think, a big, big challenge that we see. And you don't have to look very far in the headlines or in the companies that all of us have worked for in the past, to find leaders that did not have that. What did that result in, that resulted in a culture, an organisational culture, company culture that did not value learning that did not value the last 10% of honesty, that didn't value helping people discover their blind spots. In fact, it may have value keeping your head down, keeping your mouth shut, and try not to get on the radar of the boss. That's not healthy. That's, that's unhealthy. And so I think when you don't get this one, right, when you don't intentionally cultivate a teachable spirit, it's going to impact not just your leadership, it is going to impact the culture of the whole organisation. I've seen this. I've watched this. And one of the things I work with leaders is helping them to understand they are a part of changing this. You're the solution, right? You just simply have to choose to do that. The second principle we talked about discovering your wiring When when this doesn't happen, then you become simply a bad copy of a great leader. But it could be great leader of the month, right? Because this month, you may be looking at this leader and you're gonna emulate them and the next month like, oh, but look over there and shiny object syndrome sets and except for its leaders that we're emulating, and so all of a sudden, this is the direction and these are the values except for next month, it's this is the direction and these are the values. Absolutely. That's, that's so difficult and disheartening for a team to have a leader like that. So I think that's that's the importance of these two principles. And if you don't get the right, point that can you'll see that reflected on your bottom line, too.

Prithvi Madhukar: 25:39

I think I think you're absolutely because now that you're mentioning it, I think it's our mistakes that I do see, and it has impacted you hear them in the news? So you know, aside from the negative, let's kind of let go of the negative. Can you give us one or two examples of either companies or leaders who you respect who are a good example of catalytic leadership?

Dr. William Attaway: 26:03

That's a That's a great question. I don't think anybody's ever asked me that before. Here's, here's what I would, here's what I would say to that, when I'm looking at evaluating a company. And when I'm when I'm going to work with a leader, what I try to do is get a good sense of, of the company they work for, or the company they lead, when I'm looking around, they're one of the things that I look for is do they value, real transparency, and honesty. And by that, I mean, the first 90% of honesty is really easy to give, and most of us have no problem giving that the last 10% Is what you don't want to say because you're afraid you're gonna hurt somebody's feelings, you're afraid you're gonna damage a relationship or and a relationship, you don't give that last 10% You hold that back. But what I've discovered organizationally in leadership is that that last 10% is where the magic is. That's where the transformation happens. And so often, that's where that's what's holding us back, because we're not going to get that level of honest, that's where the blind spots live. They live in that last time that last 10%. What I tried to do organizationally in the team, I'll lead is create a culture where I don't just say I want the last 10% On Demand it I expected. And I'm going to give it and I'm going to expect it in return. And what that does is it creates a team dynamic, where we understand that what we're trying to accomplish is far more important than anybody's ego, or pride. That's, that is key. So when I'm looking at a company, I'm looking at a team, I want to know if that is true of them. And I'm gonna look and I'm gonna evaluate that. And I do see more and more companies and teams that are choosing that because they see the value of it. There's there's plenty of bad examples. But if you look, you will find the good examples.

Prithvi Madhukar: 27:47

That's amazing. Well, yeah, and I do one quick question before we wrap it up. So when we are talking about the good examples, do you think that leadership is only in one aspect? Like for example, if I were to think about sustainability, for me, a company that excels in leadership in sustainability will be Patagonia. But when you're talking about leadership, do you talk about one aspect? Or do we look at it as a whole? How are we supposed to look at a company and say, Okay, well, they're doing it right, or they're doing it wrong?

Dr. William Attaway: 28:21

Hmm. You know, in his book, Good to Great, Jim Collins wrote extensively about what it what differentiates a company that is there's good there, they're good, you know, solid stable in their field, and one that catapults from being good to being great. And one of the key elements that he keyed in on in this book, and this book is 20 plus years old now, but one of the things he keyed in on was the importance of the right leadership. And I love how he talked about this because he talked about the importance of humility, understanding that, you know, we will accomplish we will just indefatigable optimism, but humility, understanding that I don't know everything, and I'm going to listen and holding both of those things tightly at the same time. I think that can be true no matter what you lead, no matter how big your team, a team of one or a team of 1 million, it doesn't matter. That's what differentiates truly great leadership. And that's why a teachable spirit is number one, that's the non negotiable for catalytic leadership.

Prithvi Madhukar: 29:28

Perfect, I think you're really summarise this entire episode in just that one line, humility, optimism and the right kind of leadership is all about leading with your team and not just without them and you're moving forward. And I think that was a really good way of seeing it. Because when you think of a leader, you always think of someone who's in front while others are just at the back. But the fact that you said it's with them, you're moving forward with them. I think that's just very powerful. And William, if my listeners want to reach out to you for any help, you know, to improve their leadership skills for coaching, how do they reach out to you,

Dr. William Attaway: 30:08

you can find me on LinkedIn, William AdAway, you can go to catalytic leadership.net. And find out more about the coaching that I provide and the speaking that I do. And for your listeners, I would love to offer a free copy of the book, my goal is to get this into as many hands as I can, because I want to see leaders get better, I want to see them improve and be catalytic and positively impact those they lead and what they're accomplishing. If you go to catalytic leadership, book.com. And you can, you can, if you're inside the domestic US, you can pay for shipping, and we'll get a physical copy of that book out to you. If you're outside the domestic US, then you can get a digital copy of that book. But But again, my goal is to get it into as many hands as I can, because I believe that when we invest in a leader, and a leader chooses to be catalytic, it's not just going to impact them, it's going to impact everybody they lead and everything they do.

Prithvi Madhukar: 31:00

And I think we definitely need more people like that. I mean it I think, with leadership comes a better world. And it's yes, through little steps that we take as leaders that make the change. And I definitely feel that weight of the responsibility of being a leader, whether it is you know, on my social media platform, so me as a business owner, as an as an entrepreneur, and a lot of things that you said really, really resonated with me. And I'm so glad I brought you on my podcast. William, thank you so much for taking the time to help me to help my listeners with our leadership. Any last words for my audience?

Dr. William Attaway: 31:37

Yeah, it's just been such an honour to be with you. I just I would I would leave you with this. Imagine what happens if we get this right. Imagine what happens if we begin to grow and become more catalytic. If we model a teachable spirit in every interaction, if we walk in, not with the arrogance that we know at all, but with the humility say, No, I want to learn something here. If we begin to do that, imagine the companies that we build imagine the communities we live in and the world we inhabit.

Prithvi Madhukar: 32:08

That's so powerful. Give me goosebumps, because it's, it's, you know, especially in the world that we live in today, there's a lot of negative stuff that happens. And I think it is with us taking charge and saying no, I'm going to do this right. I'm going to be a good leader. I'm going to be the one that makes a difference. And I think it's with each of us saying the same thing. I think that's going to make a world of difference. And we need more of that we really, really need more of that. So thank you so much, William, thank you so much for your time for those of you who are listening all the way up until here. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you're staying safe staying healthy. We will catch you I mean I will catch you in my next episode. If you definitely want to reach out to William. I'm going to put all of his links in the description box below. Thank you guys