Truth, Justice, and the Power of Representation: The Superhero Paradox

Have you ever considered the connection between superhero politics and real-world power dynamics? Join us for a captivating conversation with comic book enthusiast and political science major, Joshua Drumming, as we unravel the politics of superheroes and their reflection on our views of justice and morality. Joshua enlightens us on the presence of white supremacy in juvenile mediums and how neoliberal policies exacerbate its effects.

Together, we examine the implications of American-centric messages in superhero stories, focusing on how Superman often represents the United States. We discuss the idea of wealth and power as superpowers and the way they contribute to feelings of powerlessness. Throughout our conversation, we explore the shift from 'Truth, Justice, and the American Way' to a less America-centric message, and the importance of speaking truth to power in today's confused America.

Lastly, we dive into the impact of critical race theory on black history and culture, discussing the erasure of African American contributions due to white cultural imperialism. This episode is an eye-opening exploration of the intersection of comic books, politics, and social issues. Join us and learn how we can use our power to make a difference in the world and become the heroes we are meant to be.  

Follow Joshua on his Social Media Links: 
Linkedin: Joshua Drumming 

Tik Tok: @joshuadrumming

Here are some of Joshua's suggested reading:

Political Texts:

1. Groundings with my Brothers

2. Inglorious Empire 

3. Fire on the Levee

4. Caste

5. Black Ethnics: Race, Immigration, and the Pursuit of the American Dream 

Comics:

1. Kingdom Come

2. Superman (current run)

3. Action Comics 

4. Bitter Root 

5. Black Hammer

6. Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow 

7. Sins of Sinister

8. Icon and Rocket: Season 1

9. Static:Season 1/ Static: Shadows of Dakota

10. Duo

11. Blood Syndicate: Season 1

Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:30

All right brother, how are you Welcome to superhero politics podcast.

Speaker 1: 0:34

Thank you, i'm doing all right. How about yourself?

Speaker 2: 0:37

Good, good, good. Thank you for being on. I just always we introduce ourselves, you know, and our to our listeners, and so give you an opportunity now to tell our listeners a little bit about you and your connection to college comic books and your connection to politics.

Speaker 1: 0:57

Yeah for sure. So my name is Joshua drumming. I've been reading comics for as long as I can remember, like a little bit of I primarily do DC, marvel, but I do a little, a little bit of everything you know image, virgin, titan, concrete you name it In terms of how actually attached to that, academically speaking, i try to inject comic books whenever I can. So my senior thesis actually saw the political science major And my senior thesis had to be about neoliberalism. So it's like I'm going to talk about neoliberalism and comic books. So, yeah, so, like, my thesis ended up talking about how, you know, white supremacy is so pervasive that you can see it even in, you know, juvenile mediums And how neoliberal policies exacerbate all of the effects of what supremacy.

Speaker 1: 2:12

In law school It was much harder to incorporate comic comic books, but I actually did end up finding this one curvy case. That's all I could do, wasn't very much. But yeah, like I've been, you know, loving common books forever. I've been loving politics and law forever. I was actually on a municipal level political campaign when I lived in Indianapolis. I hope to get on some future campaigns in the future. But yeah, that's a little bit about myself.

Speaker 2: 2:51

That's awesome. So where did you have you graduated law school yet, or are you still in law school?

Speaker 1: 2:59

So I graduated law school May 22. Where did you attend GW Law? Okay, yeah.

Speaker 2: 3:06

Yeah, great, great. So you said that you you worked on a municipal level campaign and you hope to get on those in the future. And so you know, like I always tell my listeners, you know, the reason why this is born is because I, much like yourself, grew up loving comic books and getting involved in politics and always saw the parallels, much like you do. I feel like I'm having a conversation with a younger version of myself, because you're tracking kind of the same way that I discovered and ended up here on this podcast and form formation of this podcast, which is a superior of politics, and so I myself currently am a sitting city councilman, running for reelection this year. And so you know, it's it's.

Speaker 2: 3:53

It's really great to always find someone who has kind of a kindred view of the way and intersectionalities between two seemingly independent genres of things. And so what was the first comic book that you read that, even as a youngster, that that really piqued you and said, yeah, this is something that transcends just the idea of superpowers and heroes and villains. What was the first comic book that you read that really connected you to the idea of politics running throughout comic books?

Speaker 1: 4:35

That's really really hard. I know there are some people that are really good at about remembering, like oh yeah, my first comic book was this, and maybe I'm not sure Like one that I read a while ago and definitely made me feel this way. Realistically, it probably wasn't my first, But I'm gonna say Kingdom come, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 5:04

Kingdom come is a masterpiece. I got it from the library and I was just going to, you know, read it, return it. I was like, oh no, i need to buy this. So I bought that. as soon as I finished reading it, and you know, just really talking about how, you know just how we organize this world And you know what is like, what is good, what is evil, and also is there a possibility to have you derive Maleficent from inaction. you know, when it comes to, you know Superman in that story, you know he's. by the way, superman is like my favorite hero to this day.

Speaker 2: 6:01

And I'm like, wow, bro, we are really honestly like different, like we're different.

Speaker 2: 6:07

I feel like Superman is my favorite as well, So I feel like we're just essentially, you know, like kindred versions, man, because we're tracking the same same hero and that was going to be my question, like how, when you said King will come, i immediately knew that Superman was your guy, because that is one of the most quintessential, quintessential works that shows really the dichotomy of how Superman lives in the world, like where he fits into the world, what his effect and his presence is when it's, when it's very apparent, and what is his effect and it is when he's not a parent, and so it's that really that power, and who has it and how it's concentrated and what it does when it's active and versus inactive, and so that's a great, that's a great work, man.

Speaker 2: 7:03

It's one of my favorites as well. And so, now that you like when, when, that, when, you had that realization that one of your favorite things comic books is now driving you to towards something else, that that is a, you know, an essential part of your life, like how, how much passion did you discover for connecting the two? because I know it was always a central theme in my life, like you know, the use of power, the abuse of power, the distribution of power, like all of the different underlying tones of comic books, and it really drove and informed my politics and my own political views. How did it do that for you?

Speaker 1: 7:50

Yeah, like I think that I have made parallels between you know political power and you know superpowers. In the past, you know we were, so we were using that framework for the real world. You know who would have the superpowers It'll be white people, right, exactly, and black people, brown people. You know we're, you know, left, on the ground, looking up, we are disenfranchised, where we literally lack self determinism And you know everyone wants to be Superman, you know, or Spider-Man, or you know name your favorite hero, right, and you know we have a lot of black kids and black adults that you know do fundamentally feel powerless in our current system.

Speaker 1: 9:03

So it's about, you know, redressing the wrongs that lead to that feeling and reality of powerlessness. And you know it's really tough. It's, you know, and there's, as you know, like there's so many different pieces, like the legal field, the political field, the social field, etc. Etc. That you have to target the popular culture field. You have to target to, you know and view people with that sense of power and you know the actual concretized power And certainly Yeah, so it's, it's, it's.

Speaker 2: 9:45

It's odd that you say that, not I, but it's kind of prescient that you say that is because when you think about that, i remember in the original Weedon cut of well, the Weedon cut of Justice League, you know, they had that scene with Flash and Batman, you know, and he asked him what's your superpower? And he says I'm rich. And you see, you think about that. You think about how we have wealth and wealth distribution and generational wealth built from generational theft in this country Looks like superpowers.

Speaker 2: 10:26

You know, other people are flying where some people have to walk, and so when you said that we're constantly on the ground looking up, that's how the world feels as Superman flies above them, as the heroes fly above them, and so it makes ordinary people feel powerless. And I always think about, you know, the Superman is America And then the rest of the world is is just kind of the playground. Superman flies into whatever country he needs to fly into to help, but there's always some damage that happens when he goes into hell, and so it's you know, even though the intentions may be altruistic, there's always collateral damage.

Speaker 2: 11:11

That happens when something of that great a power goes in to something with lesser power.

Speaker 1: 11:19

Yeah, absolutely Yeah. And you know one thing I love, one change that I think is was so important. You know, several years back they changed it from, you know, truth, justice in the American way to you know, a less America centric motto, which I love because you know, like, let's look at, you know, superman, one thing I always love talking about with Superman is, you know, his connection to so I'm a devout Christian, right, and Superman is definitely, you know, position in that kind of Judeo-Christian messianic, you know position, right. So if we look at that, we have to look at the contradictions. You know, God bless America.

Speaker 1: 12:18

But America is not, you know, a moral state. It's not. So what is it? what are we saying when we say that arguably the most moral figure on the planet, superman, is going about it the American way is imposing, you know, america's just inherently imperialistic, you know disposition onto the world, like I think that it is really really important to move away from the American centric-ness And obviously, like he's still very American centric, like he literally is dressing the flag still, but you know, even if it's a, you know, kind of symbolic shift, i think that's important.

Speaker 2: 13:15

No, i think Superman at any of itself is a symbol. Now, i don't know if you can see above my head here, you know I have, you know, a House of El Crest with my last initial in it, and it's that's how formative it's been to me. Like it's just the idea that there is a figure of kind of irreproachable moralism and its truth, justice in the American way. And some of my favorite stories, you know, in the Superman comics have been about him attacking what seems to be systemic wrongs, like Superman bashes the Klan For some reason.

Speaker 2: 14:02

I just kind of love that one, and so you see that and you see them. But then also you look at, you know, like the Dark Knight returns, and then you know, superman also becomes like a figure of the establishment. And so when you have those two like dichotomies of the same character, you know it kind of makes you think about the dichotomy of America. Like America presents itself, as you know, the melting pot, land of the free, bring me your tired, poor huddle masses, and then we're also, you know, build a wall, kick everybody out, and it presents that dichotomy of you know what, the thing that you love.

Speaker 1: 14:46

Yeah, it definitely does. So I really like if not the man, i like some of the words of Thomas Jefferson. You know, i think that's a very controversial take Just because, so obviously, you know, tj was garbage, right, but I think that he represents, he represents America and he, i think he represents the confused soul of America. There's this one quote I like that I'm not going to save our beat them, because I always mess it up for like 100% of the time, but it's basically, you know, we have the wolf by the neck or something essentially justice in one hand and self preservation and the other. He's talking about the institution of slavery, of course, but you know, like, we can map that onto like a lot of different things. We can map that onto the imperialism that America is still engaging in. You know what's up Guam We can map that onto.

Speaker 1: 16:15

You know capitalism that you know runs America and how, like, whether you like capitalism or not, it's hard to argue with the numbers. You know capitalism, you know, is one of the most deadly institutions to ever be created, right? So, yeah, i think that America has always represented a confused soul, down to today, and I think it's, you know, part of the solution, so to speak, is, you know speaking truth to power and you know acknowledging, you know, the confused nature of America, like one of my favorite political philosophers is Walter Rodney, and he talked about white cultural imperialism and how it is imperative to you know disabuse people of this notion that you know black people haven't created anything that white people have created, everything that white people are. You know the paragons of altruism and you know black people are the antithesis. It's imperative to you know tell people the truth about.

Speaker 1: 17:40

You know, all of the historical contributions of black folks, right, and you know, like we see kind of the opposite of that happening right now, like this anti-CRT movement, and it's like we're going to, you know, hide and obfuscate the truth as much as possible where we're not going to be able to. We're not going to allow you to learn black history, we're not going to let you learn Latino history, we're not going to let you learn Native history, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Because at the end of the day, you know, even let's pretend for a second that America is like this super, you know moral state today, right, it would still be true that for the majority of American history, america has been the Galactic Empire. The America has been the capital in Hunger Games. America has been, you know, fill in the blank, you know, really evil scrolls, the Cree, the Shiar, like they like you can name it.

Speaker 1: 18:58

Yeah, they've been that, yeah. So yeah, i think it's just so important to understand that you are not Katniss, america like you're not Katniss, and you know that can be you. Being Katniss can be aspirational. You can say I want to be Katniss, but in order for that to be made real, you have to understand that you are the capital today and you have to reverse engineer that right Back to Katniss or to not back to two Katniss.

Speaker 2: 19:39

So, if you mind me, if you let me break in here for a second, because you brought up CRT and I really wanted I want you to touch on that and expound a little bit because you are, you were a law student, you graduated law school, and so one of the one of the one of the attacking points of the right on CRT has been that CRT is being taught in K-12 education And so obviously, as a law student, you probably probably studied critical race theory. So dispel the myth that CRT is something that is distilled down to K-12 students.

Speaker 1: 20:26

So well, one is if we're looking at the history of CRT, it was credit and law schools, right, and you know it has expanded where you know you can have it in, like, for example, like there are definitely like PhDs that are, you know, learning CRT, right, but like you need to understand that. You know critical race theory is not, you know, like this, like gen ed when it comes to law school. So even a lot of lawyers. If you were to ask them to speak in depth on CRT, they'd be unable to right. So if that's the case, you can imagine how ridiculous it is to say, oh yeah, that 10th grader is learning CRT, right, right.

Speaker 1: 21:25

Critical race theory, i think, is such a great framework and the right has just really bastardized it And you know it's essentially been turned into a dog whistle. For you know anything they don't want to teach or anything that they deem bad, and by bad just you know, anti-racist, like, yeah, like CRT, look, i'll be that. You know controversial, dude, and you know I wouldn't be opposed if you know, like, if it was a more technical subject.

Speaker 1: 22:15

Yeah, yeah, teach it like teach the kids, you know.

Speaker 2: 22:22

There certainly has never been racism embedded in the structure of education and higher education, never Certainly. If anything has been immune to racism, it has been education, which obviously I'm being facetious here for those who can't tell But yeah, so a lot of people are saying that now what they're able to do is couch anything that is relative to the history of black people in this country, especially in a positive sense, couch it into critical race theory and then get it removed from curriculum curricula around the country, and so you're essentially practicing critical race theory by saying you're combating critical race theory, because what you're doing is you're whitewashing the history of black people's contribution to this country.

Speaker 1: 23:18

Oh, actually, excuse me, I'm so sorry, I had to move You mind if I grab my charger, No no, you're fine. No All right.

Speaker 2: 23:35

So you know, we're in this scenario where we have you know this term that says this is the study of racism and how it permeates a society, And then you have those who say this is a way to label current generations with the sins of their ancestors, And so that's not fair. Therefore, rather than having a reason conversation on the issue, we're going to get rid of it And, as a matter of fact, now this is our opportunity to get rid of all things black history and, you know, black, edifying.

Speaker 1: 24:21

Yeah, what I would say is let's make a deal. We you did not enslave you personally, randall white person right not enslaved me, you did not enslave my ancestors Right.

Speaker 1: 24:44

So let's make a deal, we will. We can never talk about it right because you, you Chad, you didn't do the enslaving Right. But you know, i believe in quid pro quo. So in exchange you don't get to reap any of the benefits of slavery, of the black codes, of the Jim Crow laws, of the red lining, of the homestead act, of the GI bill, of any of you, the disparate rates of, you know, approving loans none of it. We can act as if your hand, your ancestors hands, are clean. You do not get to avail yourself of all the benefits because bloody hands gave you that. If you agree to that deal, we're good, we're good.

Speaker 2: 26:02

Do you actually think that they would take that deal?

Speaker 2: 26:04

because the contributions of African Americans in terms of intellectual property and labor and everything else, and especially now in terms of culture, is so embedded in our economy.

Speaker 2: 26:18

If you look at our GDP and you look at some of our greatest exports, i've been very fortunate to see most of this world, so I've been pretty much all over the planet and I have never seen, i've never gone to a place where I didn't see evidence of black culture, whether it's a kid with a two-pot t-shirt on in Russia, or someone wearing a LeBron jersey in Spain, or someone listening to music or the style of music that they're producing in their countries. So I've never been anywhere where we haven't seen the influence of African American culture, specifically African American culture. So that's probably our largest and most profitable export in this country is black culture. So I don't see a way that that deal would be acceptable, because if you look at the contributions of our economy, it's at least half. It's at least half. If we look at our 20-something to 30-something trillion dollar economy, it's at least half, and I don't know if they're willing to go half on that.

Speaker 1: 27:48

Yeah. So I'm up two minds Because on one hand, i think that even the most ardent anti-CRT folks somewhere in there in their heart of hearts they understand how beneficial the blood of my ancestors has been for their well-being and livelihood, but on the other hand, we have to take it back to white cultural imperialism because I genuinely don't believe that the average American knows that, say, white American. The average American truly knows the depths of black and specifically African American contribution. So I talk about this a lot When it comes to African Americans specifically. So I'm not talking about Jamaican or Afro-Nikaragwan or Nigerian, specifically African American culture. It's seen as a cultural global commons, if you are, because, generally speaking, if you participate in Jamaican culture, it is very clear you are participating in Jamaican culture, Nigerian, nigerian culture, south African, afro-brazilian, you name it.

Speaker 1: 29:34

When it comes to African American culture, i think it's often seen as just American culture. So whether we're talking about rap, r&b, soul, food, hip hop, dances, etc. Everyone's doing it in this country and the other 195 give or take, and it's just seen as American culture and its creators aren't really giving the credit for it. But what is it actually saying? What does it actually mean? It means that If I'm that Russian kid in the two-poque shirt, i, yeah, i can see his face. Yeah, it's a black guy, right, but it's just American to me. I'm not really attributing that to black folks, i'm not really attributing that to African American folks, it's just American. I am, you know, i'm taking part in, you know, american culture because Americans are cool.

Speaker 1: 30:46

So if we were to, you know, racialize the conversation and say, hey, randall, white person, would you be willing to get rid of all of the benefits and contributions of black folks or African American folks? if we're getting more specific, they may not even, you know, conceptualize it like that, like, oh, wow, no more hip hop, no more hip hop, because that's all of ours. No, no more this type of food, that's all of ours. No more. You know, 80% of TikTok, that's all of ours. Right, you know. So I think we have a lot of work to do to even get to the point where you know the average. You know black person, no matter what part of the diaspora they come from, white person, asian person, latino person, et cetera, will look at, you know, rap, for example, r&b, for example, like oh, no that is black.

Speaker 1: 31:50

I know Americans love it, but that is black Right So yeah.

Speaker 2: 31:56

So I think I think, as that gets kind of brings us to a point, i think you said something where the Russian kid that I met and when I was in St Petersburg, who had on the T-Tupac T-shirt, he just looked at it as American, and I think all black people have ever wanted was just to be looked at as American. One of the one of the aspects of white privilege I don't think people realize is the it's the opportunity to be seen as an individual, and we have either been this monolithic group or we have been seen as outside the fabric of America, and so you know, i really appreciate you being here. We're coming up on time. But one question what are you reading now politically? What are you reading now? What are you reading Watching politically? And also, what are you reading Watching from superhero standpoint?

Speaker 1: 33:02

You know so much. When it comes to the comic book stuff, i'm really liking this new Superman run.

Speaker 1: 33:12

I'm really 1050 action, the action comic, the action comics and the actual Superman one. So that's by Jamal Campbell, who's one of my favorite new Everything with the X on the title, i love it, of course. Like Superman is my favorite. Wolverine is my number two, like what I've been getting into like black indies recently. So you know concrete comics, godhood comics few others I'm, i just start reading. You know bitter root from image comics, cool one. I'm just looking at my some of my more recent ones. Oh, the milestone, milestone 2.0. Love all the Yeah, so many. When it comes to the political side reading, you know a million articles here and there I'm reading. I just picked up this one book fire and the levy. It's about, you know this police killing of this black gentleman about 20 years ago and the subsequent cover up. Um I you know, in glorious empire.

Speaker 2: 34:35

That's about you know British colonialism in India, um you know and for our listeners, everything that Joshua is reading And I'm going to get that it's going to be in our show notes. We'll put links to it so you can go check it out too, Because he is giving you guys some work right now when it comes to upping your game and comics, and in political readings He is giving you guys a some work. So all that will be in the show notes And so I'm really going to ask you guys to go check that out. So, Josh, where can people find you? Where? where are you? So I, we came across each other on a thread commenting on tick tock. You had a, you had a great take on an issue and I was like, Hey, man, I got to talk to that guy. So where, where else can people find you?

Speaker 1: 35:30

Yeah, linkedin and tick tock will be will both be great places to find me. So on LinkedIn, it's just my name, joshua drumming. Drumming is D R, u, m, m I N G, just like drumming on a drum. As for tick tock, that also is a great place to find me. I'm currently on my tick tock because I couldn't even tell you up top of my head with my oh, it's just my name. Cool, that is, that's convenient, joshua drumming. One word on tick tock.

Speaker 2: 36:02

So all the links, all the links to Josh. I'm going to connect with them on LinkedIn and we already follow each other on tick tock, so I'm going to put every connection to Josh Also in the show notes. please go follow him. He is an intelligent young man, young brother, and he has some great stuff, and so I look forward to talking to him in the future. Like I told, like I said earlier, i feel like I'm talking to a younger version of myself. You know you get one of those. You know I'm thinking about the flash promo and the trailer, where, where he runs back in time and he runs into himself and I feel like I'm having that moment right now with Josh here.

Speaker 2: 36:42

So, josh, i really appreciate you being on the show. Man, i definitely believe we're going to do this again, because there's so many things that I think that you can contribute to conversations and shows that I want to have in the future. So thank you, guys for being on, for being on the day and talking my listeners out there. Continue to be kind to each other, continue to think about the world around you and how you fit in it and how you affected, think about your power, think about the presence of your power, and think about the absence of your power, because it affects change, whether it's there or whether it's not. So just remember, continue to be someone's hero and you don't have to be superhuman to. You don't have to be superhuman to be a superhuman. So until next time, this is Michael Holmes, this superhero politics podcast, and we are out.