S1E6 - Service & Sacrifice w/Gord Aker

Subscriber-only episode

This week, we connect with Gord Aker - professional coach from LogicalLeadership.ca, and Chairman of the Military Museums Foundation. 

Gord's experiences as a leader lead him to a life as an entrepreneur, coach and community builder. He shares his thoughts on transforming organizations, management process, sustainability and more. 

In honour of Rememberance Day, Seth and JP share stories from their families as well, and offer up a special moment on this week's segment of The Podium. 

We'd also like to thank the Government of Canada Department of National Defence and the  Canadian Armed Forces for providing access to recordings for this episode (The Last Post). 

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Transcript

Seth Anderson: 0:00

Welcome to Episode Six of The Biz Dojo. This week, we met with Gord acre. Gord is the chairman of the board with the Calgary Military Museum Foundation, as well as a professional executive coach. With logical leadership, they offer professional coaching, particularly geared at those in the under 40. demographic. You can check them out at logical leadership.ca Gp I thought, you know, we had a really interesting conversation with Gord that spanned a broad horizon of leadership topics.

JP Gaston: 0:33

Yeah, this one covered the whole gamut. And we did talk a fair bit about the Military Museum and some of the work that he does there also got into some conversation about you know, volunteerism and donating time when you don't, when you don't have treasure, and donating some of your your time and your talent to those sorts of organizations. So I thought it was it was great, and very timely with Remembrance Day coming up tomorrow.

Seth Anderson: 0:54

Absolutely. And, you know, that was what led us to Gord as we were trying to think, you know, is there someone in a leadership role on the military side of things that we could we could bring in and have a conversation with So, you know, we definitely got some of that, but it was, it was almost a, you know, we got double goodness, if that's the term, just also getting to, you know, get in touch with his his coaching and leadership background. So, pretty excited about this conversation. And, you know, as you mentioned, Remembrance Day, coming up tomorrow, and this time of year, I often find myself reflecting, you know, on how lucky we are to live in the country that we do, and have the freedoms that we do enjoy. And that often brings me back to thinking about my great grandpa was a great man, Robert J. Park. And, you know, he passed back in I think, 2006, or 2005, you know, quite a quite a ways back. But, you know, he was a big part of my upbringing. And, you know, I think very fondly of him. And he was, he actually signed up and went off to World War Two, towards the end of it, he was 17. And I think, either had a fake ID or, you know, some some means of, you know, getting in there when he was still under age. And I think it just spoke to, you know, how committed he was to his country and, and whatnot, that he was willing to sign up as an underage person and go overseas to be a part of that. And so, you know, for me, I often think about him and the leadership and everything that he taught me growing up. And, you know, for me, I'd like to dedicate this podcast in his memory. And I'm sure you have, you know, somewhat similar that you'd like to do the same.

JP Gaston: 2:29

Yeah, my, my grandfather, actually, both of my grandfather's, but specifically, my grandfather, on my mother's side, I know was very involved as a mechanic in the war, and he came back, many did not. So we were lucky in that regard. I unfortunately, didn't get a lot of time with him when I was younger, before he passed. So there is a certain gap there. And I've always been really, really interested myself in the military and of the wars, and not just from Oh, that's a cool action movie point of view. But something I do that, you know, people might find a little weird, but but some might do the same thing. Every Remembrance Day actually watch, kind of end to end, I watch band of brothers, but the director's cut so that I get all of the stories, and all of the interviews and all of the conversation and I find I find it really fascinating and really, really inspiring, and also a great, much more than a moment, but a great time to reflect on everything that people who have been involved in the Wars of the past and, and who have helped shape this country have have really given to to get us to where we are today. And so it's really a moment of appreciation for me. Absolutely. So, you know, thanks to everyone for listening and, you know, for those of you who you know, have served or know someone who served we're, we're thinking about you and we're very thankful for your service to our country. And let's get into it with Gord acre.

Unknown: 4:01

Today on the pod, we talked with Gord acre professional coach and chairman of the military museums Foundation, about shifting perspective, transforming organizations, sustainability and building community. And stick around after the interview as we take a moment on the podium to reflect on Remembrance Day. So welcome to Episode Six of The Biz Dojo,

Seth Anderson: 4:34

welcome to The Biz Dojo. Gord happy to have you on and just wanted you know, usually we've been starting these out by getting a little bit about your background and quite the extensive leadership background that Trans Canada for some time, sort of in the in the corporate environment before transitioning into coaching, but maybe if you could just walk us through that journey a little bit and we can kind of go from there.

Gord Aker: 4:54

Sure, no happy to do that. I think I'm probably one of those unique people that have Sort of embrace different careers along the way different ways of making a contribution. But I certainly started off as an engineer with a mechanical and an aeronautical degree and actually did technical work for 10 years, which I really enjoyed and was able to Trans Canada to go out and test all of their gas turbine, power plants and gas transmission plants. And it was just great work for a young engineer with an interest in aeronautical engineering. I think the first transformation I guess, I would say, happened when I got my first leadership role. And it quickly became apparent to me that sort of what got me there wouldn't get me to where I wanted to be. And so I actually made a conscious choice at that time to forsake a bit of my technical expertise, and really sort of embrace this idea of learning more about what it meant to be a leader and indeed, who I was as leader. That was a big step for me to basically put the technical ability on the shelf and open up the door to try to figure out what this leadership stuff was all about. And then I would say my third transition actually came when I took my first coach training course. And I was blown away by that as a modality, which I'm sure we'll get into a little later in the in the podcast, but that I think, sort of transitioned me away from just being a leader to actually wanting to help other people really discover for themselves who they are as leaders, both in an organizational context, but also in something I call life leadership, where, you know, we're not just, you know, running on a conveyor belt sort of thing, but we're actually making intentional choices to deliver our biggest and best life and make our most powerful contribution.

Seth Anderson: 6:45

Very interesting. So you talked about the engineering background, very technical expertise, and sort of making that transition into a leader. So I would venture a guess that, you know, sort of that stage of your career, you were on a path, probably towards mastery in that space, and then engineering, and then you've got a taste of leadership, what was it about leadership, you know, leading a team supporting people that drew you in, and you made that sort of paradigm shift into, hey, maybe this is where I want to go instead of, you know, continuing down the engineering path,

Unknown: 7:16

you know, I was a reluctant leader, I think that's one of the things that kind of shocks me now, looking back in hindsight that I, I wasn't really sure what it meant to lead, or why I would be particularly interested in taking on such a role. And I was actually encouraged to apply to this leadership position and believe that, indeed, it wasn't the field operations organizations. So I think that almost attracted me more as a technical individual, to get into the field organization and really grow my, my experience from that regard. And then, you know, again, it wasn't to the the sort of upside that thrilled me Initially, it was getting into that leadership role. And I had a an experience, I guess, with one of my direct reports, all of whom were, in fact, you know, my senior in age, the story goes basically, that he was responsible for commissioning a certain facility, that facility ended up having water in the basement. I went to speak to him about it. And he told me that, you know, he may have been the commissioning leader, but you know, really, that issue was a construction issue. So I went, and I talked to the construction superintendent, and he said, Well, I can fix it for you, Gord, but that was your employees project. And so I went back to my employee, and I said, I'm not interested in any more games or stories, just get it fixed. And I walked away. And I sat in my office afterwards. And I thought, you know, if this is what this job is all about, I don't think I can do this. I just don't feel like this is the right role for me. And I think that more than anything else really was the point that convinced me that I had to figure this leadership thing out, because if it was just more of my behavior, and my response, my reaction that day, then it certainly wasn't any sort of career that I was going to be interested in. So rather than sort of being called into this leadership role, I think I was dragged into it, hit my head a few times, and then kind of challenged myself to, to figure it out, or, or maybe shift gears it again, and try something that I was more suited to. I

JP Gaston: 9:24

think that's a similar experience that a lot of leaders have, right, they step into the role and they they're recognized as being particularly good at what they do. And then they step into the leadership role. And they realize it's, it's not at all the same. It's not, it's not maybe what you even expected if you were looking forward to it. And then you have to make a conscious decision whether you're going to continue down the path or just go back to what you've you've been doing for your whole life in some cases.

Unknown: 9:52

Yeah. I mean, I would agree. I think the challenge with a lot of new leaders, myself included, was that we actually thought we knew And it like so many things in this world. It's it's highly experiential in nature. I mean, you can read all the books on diapering kids all you want. But until you hold your first child in your hands, you have no idea what that's all about. And I think that's also true for leadership. You can read all the books in the world. But when you assume that responsibility, it's, yeah, it's an experience, right? It's something that you probably haven't really experienced before, or maybe not in such a significant context. And so, yeah, that's suggesting that people don't try to prepare themselves well for it. But at the same time, let's acknowledge that being in that chair, being in that seat, taking on that responsibility. It is not an academic exercise. It's a it's a human exercise.

JP Gaston: 10:49

Yeah, one one TED Talk doesn't make you an expert. Oh, I wish we should have because I tell you.

Seth Anderson: 10:57

You mentioned there Gord sort of how you got to that, I don't know if my breaking point is the right term. But I think we all do as new leaders to a team, you kind of get to that point, you're like, man, I don't know, if I'm cut out for this, you know, you kind of made the conscious decision to you know, what I'm gonna I'm gonna stick it out. I'm going to see what I'm made of, and then kind of move forward. Was there another point where you got to where you're like, yeah, hey, like, maybe maybe I can do this, right? I'm have proficiency at this. And I kind of gotten to that next level. Was there like a story or a moment that you when you think back really kind of hits home? Yeah, I think it was,

Unknown: 11:30

again, the same individual, who was again, a long term employee, and was quite the, shall I say, cynical about the whole thing. I don't know that he and my predecessor had gotten along particularly well. And so there was there was tension there. And he was bright, don't get me wrong. He was very, very smart, very wise individual. And at one point, you know, again, we were still sort of trying to figure one another out, I think, but I went, I sat in his office. And I said, you know, what I'm curious about here is, honestly, if you were to do anything in support of making this region better, what do you think, you know, would be most deserving of your, of your experiential capital, your wisdom, and so on. And he raised the possibility of doing technical audits in a way that they hadn't been done before. And often I gather technical audits prior to had been largely a paper exercise, or, you know, they weren't necessarily well followed up on. And so what we agree to at that point, which really established our relationship, but also caused me to see myself differently from a leadership perspective, was this idea that he could come up with the idea. And really what he was looking for, for me was some support. And so when he said, like, I would really like to rejuvenate these technical audits. Well, I, you know, what would that look like? What's the benefit to the region? How does this fit together? And he went on to, to really redefine what that was all about, and really elevated that region's performance to the point where, oddly enough, I think two years later, we actually run a one a corporate award, because we tied off so many loose ends, and so many things that had been left outstanding for so long. So that working together and understanding what their drivers and their motivations were, was one of those aha moments for me, I think, where it's not about having the answers as much as having real desire to want to work with people and understand what their what their gifts, and their passions and their interests are to the organization, I would say the the only the other one that comes to mind, again, same individual, and you're going to think they only have one employee. But as the regional engineer, I was responsible for a number of the technical work pieces of work that were going on in the region, I had to sign off as a professional. And he came to me with a modification with a system that I had no familiarity with it. I'm a mechanical and aeronautical engineer, this was an electrical system. So I asked him to sit down and sort of explain to me how the whole thing worked, what he was trying to do, why, you know, I should be approving it, and so on and so forth. And he had convinced me that his approach was valid and appropriate, et cetera, et cetera. And I said, Well, you know, I'm comfortable now that I can sign off on this. And he says, No, I don't want you to. And I looked at him. And I said, I beg your pardon. And he says, No, I just didn't explaining it to you. I've come up with a better way of doing it. He actually took it off my desk and went back and redid it. And I thought, Well, isn't that interesting just to be in a position where you can honor somebody his expertise and have them work through a problem in real time with me adding nothing of real value other than maybe the occasional question, and him actually using that process to come up with a superior outcome. That sounds to me like it had some promises. Well,

Seth Anderson: 14:55

obviously some good trust there for you know, to have a team member sort of on the fly. I be able to trust you, as a leader to just ad hoc even say something like that, you know, would speak to the trust and credibility that you'd have between each other, which is a great place to be thinking about, you know, some of our listeners, we have quite a few listeners that have been reaching out. And some of them are sort of in a space where either they're just getting into leadership, or they're not sure if they want to maybe make that jump from being an individual contributor to being a leader. Do you have any advice? You know, having gone through that, you know, a few years back, obviously, but any sort of key key points or advice you'd offer to someone who's either looking to make that jump or or sort of maybe in the midst and finding out who they are as a leader?

Unknown: 15:39

It's, it's a huge question. I remember some advice that was given to me, I think, during my first leadership role, and it was by my boss's boss, who I respected tremendously. And one of the things one of the many, many things that he shared with me that had a huge impact over our relationship was it he said, he would never want to give power to someone who coveted it, that has had a pretty big influence on on me as well. And even as I was hiring, you know, leaders and managers and whatnot, in my various roles, I always looked for those, that individual who felt like a leadership role was some sort of entitlement like that he had because he'd done a great job, or she'd done a great job at the technical work that this was the next rational step in their career progression and, or they were going to come in and do all these things. And it was always thought back to my boss's boss at the time, who said, you know, if somebody is really wanting this position, because of the authority that comes with it, maybe that's not the best candidate for the role. And so I think if you're reluctant, or you're not sure that you want to be a leader, that's actually a maybe a compelling sign that you might actually be good at it. If you think leadership is about you, then you're may not really understand how this works. And that's certainly not to suggest there aren't self serving leaders out there, for sure. There are many of them, in fact, but I think the best leaders are not those that are worried about themselves, but they're actually worried about how they might be able to support and enroll and engage and champion and mentor and coach, other people. And if even here, and that causes this little flutter of excitement then built don't see leadership as as an entitlement, don't see it as a position with response or with authority, see it as an opportunity to really expand the scope of of the value that you offer an organization by helping people within that organization make the most of their, their experience and their contribution.

JP Gaston: 17:37

Do you think that's a cultural shift? Like I just I recognize that the hierarchy of an organization used to define the leader. And it used to be the thing that drove everybody's decision where they wanted to go right on the on the I'm air quoting on a podcast, but on a corporate ladder, they would see those positions, and they would move towards them. But certainly, for me, at least over the last 1015 years, I have noticed that leadership is much more flat today. Is that something that kind of you've noticed, especially in your coaching, how leadership has evolved, I mean, I

Unknown: 18:11

can't honestly paint it with that broad brush, because I think we can all agree that there are still many organizations, be at law firms, be it management consultants, right, you know, where there's, there's essentially a upper out philosophy. And so if you're, in fact, not chomping at the bit to get that next promotion, but no, no matter the cost, then you stagnate and you're basically, at some point asked to leave the organization to make room for the real climbers. So I mean, that's not universal, obviously. But that exists, I think, on for one, one edge of the spectrum, if you will. I think they're absolutely other organizations that are embracing a different kind of leadership. And it's not nearly as tactical, and it's not nearly as what I would call management focused. And then there's everything in between. And so again, I mean, part of what I really enjoy about my work is, quite honestly, I get to look inside so many different organizations and see so many different leadership styles and cultural styles and whatnot. And maybe there has been some progress. But I'd like to think that there has been progress along along the line towards perhaps more inspired leadership. But I don't know that it's anything I would call universally embraced, I guess for lack of a better way of saying it,

JP Gaston: 19:37

you have a fair bit of experience with you know, different foundations or charitable organizations. Right now you're working with the the military museums Foundation, tell us a bit more about how those sorts of organizations and working with charities has played a part in your leadership style and in how you embrace leadership.

Unknown: 19:55

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a it's an interesting question, because I think one of the things that I've always found important in leadership is, is to have this purpose or this idea of, you know, wanting to make a contribution that was essentially beyond oneself. And in the corporate for profit world, I think it's very easy to get sort of hijacked by this idea that it's all about profit to shareholders. And again, many organizations continue to be governed that way. But this idea that leadership can be inspiring to other people. And there's a there's a purpose towards it, or a purpose that aligns people's interests towards accomplishing something, I think it really shows up in the not for profit and charitable sector. But I would say it also shows up in the military sector, and we can talk about that a little later, as well with my interest around that. But I think, just in terms of community building, it's fascinating to me how so many organizations that are in the Prop, for profit realm, require, you know, bonuses and routine salary progressions and stock options and all of these other perquisites to what to manage their performance, to manipulate great performance. And then you look over at the charitable sector, and the not for profit sector, but very few if any of those mechanisms exist. And yet people show up to work, and people give their heart and soul into that enterprise or that undertaking. And to me, that really just reinforces this idea of how much power there is around inspiring people to show up fully into an enterprise or a collective undertaking, because they truly and fundamentally believe in what that that organization is trying to trying to accomplish. And I mean, being a community builder or wanting to help build a community, a community that I personally would like to live in certainly involves the charitable sector, it involves the not for profit sector. And you know, I'm certainly not in the position to write checks for millions of dollars. So if you've got time, talent, or treasure, or if you've just limiting yourself the time and talent, then you know, I think there's always an opportunity for people to volunteer their time and their talent into these organizations that are inspirational to them, right, that aligned to some of their core values or some of their their purpose. And certainly that's, you know, things that have caused me to volunteer with the University of Calgary as an example, I served on the University of Calgary set up for six years. I believe in education, I believe in higher education. And so that was very easy for me to make that linkage between a rule and senate and being a champion for post secondary education and that fundamental belief. And then to with the military museums Foundation, I mean, I'm a big champion for the service and sacrifice that so many of these people make on behalf of Canada, that, quite honestly is not driven by any financial renumeration. I mean, very few people would join the military because of the pay. So, you know, it's because they believe they believe in the person standing next to them, they believe in teamwork, they believe in wanting to, you know, help the world be a better place, whether through that through armed conflict or fight honestly, in Canada, other mechanisms, you know, I'm always thrilled to hear and see just how Canada's military is very much one of the helping force, not a conquering force. And whether that's on the international stage or the domestic stage. You know, when when things get tough, I mean, who are you going to call in right after Ghostbusters is the Canadian Armed Forces, so that we're seeing examples of that right now, with respect to the COVID pandemic? I mean, you know, when things get going rough, who does the who does the government of Canada call upon to come in and help manage that situation, and it's the Canadian Armed Forces. And that's true for floods. And it's true for forest fires and so many other things. And I think sometimes these these folks, they're not perhaps as well appreciated as they might be. And so I'm really pleased and proud that I'm able to offer you know, some of my time and talent and in helping to educate Canadians on Canada's proud military history and heritage.

Seth Anderson: 24:24

Yeah, just a couple of thoughts there. Gord I actually took my kids to the Military Museum a couple of weeks ago, for the first time and beyond my expectations. It was it was really, really well done. And I probably could have just spent all day going through it. We didn't even get through everything. But my kids is also really enjoyed it. And they were really curious about things. One of my first mentors growing up, you know, you have your parents and your grandparents and my great grandpa, he went to World War Two at 17. I think he put in a fake birthdate or something like that, and he was in the Princess Patricia's towards the end of World War Two. So you know, I will It's kind of it's always kind of been near and dear. And obviously remember with Remembrance Day coming up something that's top of mind. And one of the reasons we wanted to chat with you about, you know, military leadership and just the whole museum and everything, what what drew you in, you know, to get involved with that? And what would you offer the listeners in terms of your views and what you've learned as a leader, being a part of the military Foundation,

Unknown: 25:20

I think I've always had an interest in in military history. And I understand that that's not going to be true for everyone. But that was sort of my gateway into wanting to understand more about the Canadian military and Canadian military history. And quite honestly, the more I learned, the more compelled I felt that these were stories. And these were histories that you know, were worth sharing, and that that people in Canada, would benefit greatly from understanding the service and sacrifice of some of these individuals, both in a historical context, but even on a contemporary one. Like You I, my grandfather, actually on my father's side flat in both world wars, and I didn't know him very well, as a young man growing up, I always knew he was deaf, that was readily apparent. And I always knew he had a limp because he had a cane. But he passed away before I came to any sort of realization that this was an individual with a very compelling life very compelling stories associated with his life. And in fact, after he died, I requisitioned his records from World War One from the Department of National Defense in Ottawa, and, you know, I, probably more than anything else, I was ashamed in reading his war record about how little I knew of the man. And the stories that quite honestly, he took to to the grave with him. But just to give you an idea, he was not an officer. So he was one of the people sort of call it a private he was in the artillery. So he was a gunner. He was wounded on the battlefield, in France. That's, that's where he was wounded in the legs. So I guess we now know why he was limping. He went to convalescence in England and recovered and then went back to the front and continued to fight. At one point, he actually requested a demotion. And I have no idea what the thinking was there. He was promoted at one point, and then he requested a demotion to go back to being a gunner, which, you know, just strikes me as bizarre in the extreme but interesting story that I'll never know. And then the other thing that just struck me as being absolutely bizarre was this was one of the few gentlemen that after World War One was over, he was assigned as part of a British Expeditionary Force to go to Russia, extensively to help the white Russians offset the red Russians or the communists from from taking over. And so in his records, you know, it shows him being shipped out to go to Siberia. Again, I don't know how many Canadians even know that Canada fielded a force to go to fight the red Russians in 1919. But my grandfather was one of those people. So again, just a fascinating sort of contribution there that obviously attributed to his deafness, because nobody was wearing hearing protection in those trenches. And, and obviously, his boom done on his leg, but also this experience of actually completing fighting World War One the world, the war to end all wars and then being told, not so fast, I need to get on the train, we're going to send you to victori and ship you over to Russia, who just, you know, just just fascinating, fascinating stuff.

JP Gaston: 28:48

I feel like there's a lot of those sorts of stories that people just don't necessarily know about their own their own families. I mean, I'm very similar. I mean, my grandfather, I know was involved in the Second World War, and there were certainly a lot of memorabilia around the house. And I know that he was he was a mechanic, I believe he was actually injured when when the bass was was hit. And he came home and and, you know, survived that. But I don't I don't know a lot deeper than that. And I am ashamed to admit that and it's something that I feel like I should but I feel like that's a thing that all families likely across Canada are the majority of families across Canada, Canada probably have stories in their background that they're just not aware of, and probably some great leadership stories, too.

Unknown: 29:29

Yeah, I suspect that's actually the case and leadership shows up in so many different ways. Again, I don't for a second, subscribe to the theory that leadership comes with some sort of position or title and I think you you read and learn about some of the stories of the Victoria Cross winners and certainly a fair share of them went to officers and people in charge and and for obvious examples of valor and gallantry and action and whatnot, but I also I find it so fast. fascinating how some of these young men, and they were mostly young man at the time, obviously, irrespective of rank, you know, were awarded the highest medal possible for valor and in in combat. And you see the impact that their leadership, right, their willingness to invest of themselves in something with an uncertain outcome, then their willingness to put themselves forward and take out an enemy's machine gun nest or what have you, so that the rest of their comrades in arms could actually advance it all. Again, this is this is inspiring stuff, to me, this is, this is not the stuff of well, do I get a bonus or not, it's, you know, we've got a job to do here. And this is standing in our way. And now it's my turn to actually stand up and put myself at risk in order to persevere under these incredibly difficult odds. So these are examples of leadership show up all over the place. And again, it's one of the things that I find quite inspiring that these are not people who are doing things to sort of feather their nest or, or better their, their financial position, but because they care about one another, and they care about doing something they believe in. And maybe at some level, they care about what it means to be Canadian.

Seth Anderson: 31:19

Yeah. And I think for folks like us, you know, having grandparents or great grandparents who were involved in these major conflicts, I don't know of many that were, you know, out there telling stories about what happened, but I think there's a leader like a presence, there's a, there's a leadership to the people that went through that, that you just can't fabricate or, or create, you know, it's real. And for us who have the benefit of experiencing, you know, being around those people and seeing how they lead, I think what's helped set me up on my path to where I am today. But one of the things when I think about the Military Museum, one of your you know, sort of key demographics or key people that are coming through the door on a day to day basis would be kids like, like my kids. And and I do think, you know, they don't have the benefit of necessarily being around those people who've been through these major conflicts that have sort of shaped our country and what it does mean to be Canadian. How do you guys approach that? I mean, obviously, you're the chairman of the board, it's a big responsibility, how do you get the information to the kids in a digestible way so that they can at least get some of that experience and understand what happened and how Canada was shaped on on this front?

Unknown: 32:23

Yeah, it's certainly a challenge to do that in a sort of static display. But the the foundation's mandate, as it relates to its role at the military museums is education. And so our mandate is actually to provide educational programming age specific and grade specific programming to the schools in the Calgary area. And of course, anybody else who happens to want to take advantage of the men is in the neighborhood, I mean, we'd certainly be more than happy to accommodate them as well. But, you know, I think last year sort of pre COVID if I look at those 12 months, we had brought in something in the order of 70,000 school kids, and not just to wander aimlessly through the museum, but to actually participate in highly interactive programming that's related to their curriculum at school. Again, it's it's there's an alignment there, but using Canadian military history, as sort of the lens through which they can discover elements of society and what it means to be Canadian, and to advance their understanding of citizenship, etc, etc. I couldn't be more pleased with what I've seen in the last couple of years, we've hired in a number of new educational interpreters, and a new executive director, all of whom are working together to make sure that the programs we do put on are not just lectures, they're not just video watching. But they're actually thought provoking and engaging exercises that challenge the kids to see this from a different context or a different perspective even. So that they're getting an experience that I hope will create, you know, powerful memories, because I think at again, at the end of the day, there's so many different ways of learning anything in a curriculum, there's no question about that. But to actually be in a position to expose these kids to an experience that they remember and that they consider profound, I think is, is, is really what excites me the most about the work that we get to do. It's not about sort of funneling as many kids who as possible but if we can educate 1000 young minds as to what it means to be a citizen, and you know, one of the best programs I think we put on has to do with the war of 1812. Again, not not necessarily something that's well represented in the, in the Canadian contemporary Canadian sort of culture. But one of the things that I find so fascinating about this is it's actually a game that they end up playing with certain restrictions and you know, some of the students or the represent the Americans and others, the British slash Canadians and then others, the indigenous peoples. And there's, again, obviously some restrictions and qualifications given each of the different players in the role in the role that's in the in the game that they're playing. And there's a random element to it as well. But what what I find fascinating is how often their experience of that game is that it's unfair, that it's unfair that the indigenous people can only do this or that it's unfair that, you know, the Canadian slash British contagion can only do this or that. And I mean, what a powerful experience to realize just that war is completely unjust. You know, and unfair when you think about it. You know, there's, there's no referee, they're telling you whether you scored the goal or not, you know, it's, so they're getting this experience of history in the making. And I really liked that as one of the programs that we offer,

Seth Anderson: 36:01

sort of pivoting gears and wanted to talk a little bit about your coaching. And that's sort of the third step you spoke to in sort of your journey to it to where you're at right now, you've got the logical leaders.ca, which is your own personal company, as well as the Magnaflow leadership coaching that you're involved in as well. And I just kind of wanted to pick your brain on that one a little bit, what got you involved with that program, but

Unknown: 36:23

with your permission, maybe I'll just back up a little bit here and talk coaching as a business because it feeds into this, these various things that I'm involved with and engaged with, not only was going into coach training, a life changing event, but obviously becoming an entrepreneur was also a life changing event, in many respects, certainly a huge growth opportunity for me. But one of the things that I think is pretty standard within the coaching world anyway, certainly as a solopreneur, is that it's very difficult to make a living a decent living, just doing coaching. And so many professional coaches, you will find if you went to the international coach Federation chapter Calgary chapter website, you'll see many professional coaches do coaching, but they'll also do training and facilitation, consulting, you know, there's a myriad of different things that they will also do to help sort of create a little bit more diversity in revenue streams, if, if that's a good way of putting it, I actually don't do that. I mean, I've certainly done some public speaking, and so on and so forth. But my passion is very much coaching. And so to diversify my, my revenue streams, I've signed on with a number of other companies that do coaching, or provide leadership development services, and that want to retain professional coaches as part of that overall service offering. And so what I would say is, I have my company, which is primarily focused on individuals under 40. And this is sort of a unique Mark market niche for me personally, because I just love working with younger people. And also, because I think they've got the most career runway to take advantage of coaching early on in their careers. They obviously, if they can shift their perspective, a few degrees when they're 20, or 30, or 35 years old. And ultimately over the course of their 25 or 35 year career history, they end up in a much different place. And that certainly drives my interest in coaching with that particular demographic. And then on the other side of that equation is the referral work. And these are companies that I have, have either sought me out, or I've sought them out to provide coaching as part of a larger leadership development services offering to potential clients. And Maslow is the latest of these and what really excites me about this, it really addresses one of the fundamental challenges I and other coaches have experienced in the work that we do. And that is if you work with a leader, any organization, and as a consequence of that coaching relationship, they maybe take on a new awareness, and maybe they're seeing themselves differently, and they're seeing themselves differently in the world. And they've got a different mindset and a different perspective. Maybe they've got some additional skills as well, but, but really, I think it's a different mindset than different perspective that they're bringing back to an organization. And they're ready to change and transform the world and do all these amazing things. And yet, they may be a single leader in a sea of 1000 that is now seeing things differently. And to be honest with you, I mean, quite often those new leaders or those leaders who have experienced coaching, they just get frustrated with the sheer inertia of their organizations. And often they end up leaving which you know, as a coach is a little bit frustrating, not not that they're, you know, Taking advantage of their personal empowerment and defining a career path for themselves, it makes sense. But rather that we're not transforming organizations at this point. We're transforming individuals and are helping those individuals transform. And it'll just take so much longer as more and more of these people get into the workforce and start to bring their new perspectives on leadership to play. So Maslow offered the that as a school for executive development offered a different way of, of doing what it is we're talking about here. And in 10, Iraqi is basically committed himself to saying, we need to help organizations transform. And yes, we're going to do that by working with their leaders. And yes, we're going to use the coaching modality as one of these great avenues or mechanisms for evolving people. But we're not going to do this one leader at a time we're going to do this organization by organization. And and I'm excited about that just because it can you think about working with an individual and helping them realize some of their leadership potential and then watching them struggle, so mightily go by and going back into their existing organizations to actually get to work with an entire organization and the entire leadership, or at least a significant portion of it within an organization to share this, that opportunity for personal leadership growth and development, and then have them all come back and coalesce around that different idea. That just excites me, that excites me to know and see the possibilities around that. I don't know that decade of coaching or leadership coaching or life leadership coaching, as I like to call it, it's probably not going to deliver on the true value proposition until such time as there's an opportunity to help organizations, while in Tim's words become self actualizing. But to really to see that leadership model and that coaching model into organizations and reap that benefit in its entirety, but we're just not going to get there until we get organizations to actually embrace that. So that's what Maslow is all about. And, and Tim is actually wanting to engage with organizations that help to help define what Maslow's hierarchy of needs might mean for their leadership in the 21st century. So again, to his credit, he's not coming at this with all the answers, he's coming at this with a forum to say, you know, let's get some of your best and brightest together and actually see what it means to us what shows up as being important and what shows up as being less important, and what this might look like. So it continues to be a work in progress. But I'm definitely excited about the possibility of actually seeing organizational transformation,

Seth Anderson: 42:52

very interesting. And it really resonates with me, I went through my own sort of personal transformation over the last couple of years. And, you know, I would say I was very much I think I was a pretty good leader, I had a rapid ascent up the corporate ladder, and, you know, went from sort of a frontline technician into a director role within four years sort of had a couple manager stops along the way, thinking of it from like a mass flow standpoint, just in my life, you know, you kind of have the checkpoints and physiological needs safety needs, but I was having a tough time getting into sort of that third bar love belonging, you know, into esteem. And, you know, even though I was having success in the workplace, in a lot of ways, I kind of had to go and reset, like, I had to kind of take a step back and get real with myself, physically, I was 310 pounds. I had some Wake Up Calls with like my son asking me, Dad, why are you so fat? You know, I couldn't get up the stairs there. Although the warning signs and indicators there that maybe the success that I was having, I don't want to say wasn't earned. But you know, I wasn't sustainable, what I was doing, and then I had to kind of rebuild from the bottom up. When you're entering an organization, I would I would presume you're gonna see people that are in all different places on the spectrum. How do you sort of even assess where an organization is at to kind of get started?

Unknown: 44:06

Yeah, I mean, it's a it's a very good question. And again, I don't think there's any one model or any one thing that's going to be the answer to all of this stuff. I think one of the things, again, that probably is overused these days, but I think is is relevant to this conversation, and that is sustainability. And I think so often, you know, organizations and even people are looking for a bit of a quick fix. And so you'll you'll, they'll hire in the consultant, or they'll hire in this organization, or they'll engage with a coach or what have you. Or even I think even taking sort of a sheet dip leadership development program where, you know, everybody walks into the room gets treated exactly the same, the same information is exchanged sort of thing, and then they all walk out. You know, they have this thing that it's almost as one and done sort of thing, and what else I notice in organizations is if they, if they if they view this as a transaction, if they if they see this as almost a management process, then my guess is they're going to struggle with the sustainability of it, my guess is they're going to, they haven't truly wanted to put down the previous paradigm and embrace what might be possible, they haven't made the maturity enough to say, we don't have all the answers, let's co create this together. And it's actually not that difficult walking into organizations to see sort of those that, you know, maybe have the potential to realize a different future a more sustainable sort of approach to organizations, because those on the other end of the spectrum are basically running their people into the ground, you know, again, not out of any sense of malice. It's just, it's, you know, faster, cheaper, better every day sort of thing. And there's, there's not that willingness or cultural norm that says, take some time for yourself, understand who you are, understand what's important to you understand what's working for you, if you're, you know, physiologically or physically or you're struggling or you've got other challenges going on in your life, then let's make some time for that. Because this is part of the whole human concept, right? We're not just hiring a little piece of you, we actually as an organization, want your your mind, but we also want your heart and soul. Well, you know, most organizations, it seems to me and given the pace of business, a lot of what I would consider to be inspired leadership has gone out the window, and organizations have embraced this idea of management. And I really like this model of leadership being the outcome of two elements, mainly management, but also inspiration, in my way of thinking management is a process again, which is why a lot of organizations love it, because they can put it on a slide deck. But it's a process of plan, do review adapt. So when you think about project management, what's the plan? Are you executing the plan? Where's the variance to plan? What are you doing? Are you changing the plan? Are you putting the heat under a contractor or a supply chain or whatever's going on for you? Somehow, we've now managed to apply these same management principles to people. So what are your goals for the year? And how are you doing on your goals? And what's the variance? And are you working enough to accomplish all these things? Again, there's nothing wrong with it. It's an inherent part of leadership, it's just not the only thing. And so, so we have all of these management processes that are sort of, I don't want to say forcing people to do things, but but quite honestly, if, you know, if you've worked in, in large organizations, very few of them are running on inspiration. They're running on data. They're running on, you know, trends and hardcore numbers and quarter over quarter financials. Again, nothing wrong with that. But it's not the whole story. And what seems to be missing is that inspired leadership piece, nobody's got time for that. Nobody's got time to sit down and say, how's the family? nobody's got time to say, A, how do you understand what you're doing on a day over day basis is actually contributing to this overall organization? Oh, and by the way, what do you understand this organization is all about anyway, having those conversations and actually, you know, creating a, an environment and a culture where people do want to work together to accomplish something they that has meaning for them, and that they couldn't otherwise do without that team or that organizational infrastructure. It's not that difficult to walk into an organization and get a sense of the pace and get a sense of the flurry of activity, you get a sense of people running from pillar to post waiting for the weekend, so they can catch their breath, only to repeat it on Monday. And that's okay, in a crisis situation. No question about that. But why in the heck are we creating a crisis situation every day of the week and twice on Sunday?

JP Gaston: 49:08

I like that. I like that a lot. The good news is this podcast comes out on Tuesdays so the listeners can reflect on what they just repeated on Monday so that they can prepare themselves for next Monday and maybe do a little bit better. You know, I recognize we're coming up towards the the end of our our time, and it's I really appreciate you coming on it's been a great conversation. What's next for you? What kind of space and growth and learning do you have on deck or, you know, what are where are you working towards both in your business and with the military museums foundation?

Unknown: 49:38

Yeah, oh, I'll answer that I guess in three parts. But I'm thinking about this personally as well. And, and you know, one of the things of being coaching community is many of many of my friends and peers and whatnot are actually addicted to continuous improvement and self development. And one of the things As inspired me is I belong to a book club for lack of a better term. And the book actually basically acts as a bit of a catalyst for our monthly gatherings. But I can tell you that those monthly gatherings are, are more about the conversation than they are about the material, then. So it's not about, you know, which five things did you pull out of the book that you thought were interesting, you get to the first one, and then two hours later, you realize that you've covered such an immense territory of possibility and opportunity, and, and, and reasonable challenge of interpretation. And, you know, to me, that has just been one of the greatest learning vehicles I've come across. And obviously, it does require a high degree of trust and emotional maturity and whatnot to really function. But I've been so pleased with my experience of that as a growth and development tool is that I actually want to replicate it in my business. And I'm in the process of trying to figure out what the heck that's supposed to look like, I would like to take some of these young leaders that I've worked with over the past 15 years, and invite them to participate in some kind of success team or, you know, again, I'm not sure what we'll call the thing but but just an opportunity for five or six of them to get together probably virtually, because these people are all scattered around the world out. But by all means let's have a catalyst for conversation, but then to have them develop such a high level of trust and rapport, that they can challenge the thinking their their thinking, they can share opportunities, they can experience what I get to experience working or being in a group of coaches, but within their peers. Because, you know, I'm the first to admit, I do not have the answers for these people. But if I can create the environment for them to discover some of their own answers working with with their peers, I think that would be very cool. I think that'd be a really cool thing to do. So that's what I'm trying to figure out. In terms of my business. In terms of the military museums Foundation, today is an exciting day for me because it represents, I guess, not the first but but the second emergence, if you will, out of the COVID shut down. So obviously when COVID hit hit Calgary, the Department of National Defense and third Canadian Division in Edmonton both were pretty quick off the mark to shut down the the Military Museum museums and, you know, all of a sudden, you know, we had all of these great programs, but of course, no one to deliver them to. And that resulted in layoffs and retraction of a lot of things that we were really excited about doing this year. And our principal focus, unsurprisingly, is to figure out what this looks like in the months ahead. Now, I say, you know, this, this past few days has been a bit of a watershed moment for us today, we in fact, had our first school group in under the COVID protocols. And I believe it was a homeschool group, not not from the CB or the Catholic board, but still, you know, to have these young people returning to the museums and partaking in our in our programming. Obviously, we've we've got the sanitation we've got the masking, we've actually invited more educational interpreters to come in so that we can basically configure much smaller groups, for people for the students coming into the museums, but I think yeah, it's an exciting sort of, like I say, an emergence from the the darkest days, I hope, the darkest days of this COVID pandemic and really helping us to redefine, you know, what the future holds, and how we will continue to persecute our mandate under some pretty bizarre situations and circumstances. I think we've all learned to embrace technology in a way that we haven't perhaps previously had to and I'm got no doubt in my mind that that will also form part of whatever it is we end up offering and, but in the meantime, we're we're figuring it out as we go, but at least it's the answer is not zero. It's since pandemic now. I mean, we've had you know, 50 or 100 people through and taking advantage of our education programs and even though that's not a lot, it sure as heck feels better than zero

Seth Anderson: 54:23

and an absolute pleasure chatting with you this last hour. Gord for the folks listening, whether it be with your coaching or or the Military Museum, how can how can I get in touch with you?

Unknown: 54:35

I would suggest with the military museums, you basically can go to our website@www.tmf.ca that's the military museums foundation t MMF I'm listed there. Our executive director, Becky Jensen Van Doren is also there and I know she would love to hear from anybody who's interested in you know, partaking in one way or another as a member Have the foundation or volunteering or anything else, you know, please feel free to to reach out to this is all about engagement and education at the end of the day. So we'd be more than happy to hear from you. And if Yeah, if you're, you know, 40 plus or minus and are interested in front and to figure out who you are as a leader, I mean, I'm certainly more than willing to have an initial conversation with you as well and Coronet logical leadership.ca will get you where you need to be on that front.

Seth Anderson: 55:31

Perfect. Well, thanks so much for making the time to come and chat with us. We are very thankful for having you appreciate the opportunity. And thank you. Good. Thanks so much. My pleasure. Usually, at

JP Gaston: 55:46

this point in the show, we have a little bit of fun. And we walk through our top three in a segment that we call the podium. Today, in honor of Remembrance Day, we've decided to take this time to honor those who serve and to reflect on the sacrifices of our friends, family, and those we've never met. Usually silence in any form of broadcasting is a bad thing. And for Seth and I, we hope that this moment of silence is a powerful reminder of what has been sacrificed to afford us all the opportunities that we have today. We ask that you please continue to listen and reflect as we play the last post followed by a moment of silence