The Art of Healing

Beyond Western Interpretations: David Crow on Plant Medicine and the Chakra System

• Charlyce Davis MD Reiki Practitioner

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What if everything you thought you knew about chakras was only part of the story? In this eye-opening conversation with David Crow, plant medicine expert and specialist in Chinese, Tibetan, and Ayurvedic healing traditions, we journey back through time to uncover the original purpose of the chakra system.

You can work with Dr. Crow in his consultation services here:

https://www.crowconsultations.com/consultation


You can also learn from Dr. Crow in his courses:

https://www.crowconsultations.com/courses


You can also attend one of Dr. Crow's events here:

https://www.crowconsultations.com/events-calendar

David reveals how our contemporary Western understanding of chakras—with their associations to psychological states and endocrine glands—emerged as a simplified translation created in the late 19th century when these ancient teachings first reached Western shores. This modernized version, while useful in its own right, misses something profound about the original systems.

The ancient chakra teachings emerged from a spiritual revolution that began around the first centuries AD, articulating for the first time in human history that "the universe exists inside of us." This wasn't just poetic language but a practical map for inner exploration. The chakras weren't merely energy centers to be balanced or opened but portals through which consciousness could journey from identification with physical form to reunion with primordial awareness.

Most significantly, David introduces us to the concept of "samadhi"—the true goal of the chakra system that's often missing from contemporary teachings. This transcendent state of consciousness represents our highest human capacity, the ultimate destination of all yogic practices. He explains how ancient practitioners used two approaches to reach this state: forceful practices like intensive breath control, and non-forceful practices of simply letting go of attachments to each element.

Whether you're a long-time practitioner of energy healing or simply curious about the deeper dimensions of consciousness, this conversation offers fresh insights into how we might work with subtle energy. By understanding the original purpose of these ancient systems, we can approach our spiritual practices with greater depth and authenticity.

Join us for part two of this enlightening interview next week by subscribing to the Art of Healing podcast on your favorite platform or signing up for our newsletter.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome back to the Art of Healing podcast. I'm Dr Charlize and it's so nice to either meet you for the first time, see you online or meet you on the podcast. So for this podcast episode, I am introducing best-selling author and plant medicine expert, david Crow. David Crow is a plant medicine expert, clinician, consultant, researcher, educator and author. He's a specialist in Chinese, tibetan and Ayurvedic medicines and their spiritual lineages. He is the author of In Search of the Medicine Buddha A Himalayan Journey, sacred Smoke and Plants that Heal.

Speaker 1:

David is coming on today to share with us, bless us with some of his breadth of extensive knowledge in using plant medicine. I'm especially excited because I have been a student of his. I took his course on Ayurveda and aromatherapy for my own personal healing and I actually study my notes frequently because it is so much to learn. There's just simply no way to just listen to one course of his and take it all in, so I keep his notes close by, I reference him and so on this podcast we'll have a chance for him to share some of his knowledge. In particular, I want to ask him about his course, illuminated Chakras, and I want to ask him about his approach to energy medicine. So enjoy.

Speaker 1:

This is a special podcast episode, so if this one is especially useful for you, please leave a review in the show notes. Please enjoy part one of my interview with David Crowe. So for folks that jump in, I did record a brief introduction to David, but I'm just going to go over his bio. David is a plant medicine expert, a clinician, a consultant, a researcher, an educator and an author, and he's a specialist in Chinese, Tibetan and Ayurvedic medicines and he has several amazing online programs, of which I am a student of his and some of his programs.

Speaker 1:

But in the chat I'm putting his upcoming events and calendars, which takes you to his main website and then here in a few minutes I'm going to put a link to some of David's courses where he shares his knowledge, and towards the end I was going to ask him about his consultations, because he does work one-on-one with clients and one-on-one with healers and practitioners, if I understand, and practitioners, if I understand Today's conversation, which just cannot tell you all as a community just what a blessing it is to have David. So I wanted to ask him to share his wisdom with us on his 40 years of experience and particularly working with the chakras. So I have run my mouth enough. David, how are you? And just hello, nice to meet you.

Speaker 2:

Hello, nice to meet you and thank you for the invitation.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much. So why don't we start with your background? Because you've studied Chinese medicine, traditional Chinese medicine, tibetan healing and Ayurvedic medicine, all of these for many years. To me that's just several human lifetimes of healing. But over the past 40 years, how do these ancient systems and the view of the chakra system different, or how are they different from what we commonly use in sort of the Western healing modalities and modern energy medicine and in Reiki traditions?

Speaker 2:

Right, excellent question, and that is a big subject. So you are correct, the chakra system that is used in contemporary healing systems like Reiki, like you mentioned, is a modern system and there are different time frames where we can study the chakras and we see that, depending on the time frame, the understanding of the chakras and we see that, depending on the time frame, the understanding of the chakras was very different. So one of the things that I encountered in my studies of Chinese medicine was Taoism in general, and Taoism has a system of chakras also, and this is connected to the inner alchemy practices, the neidan, the inner alchemy practices of refining the essence into spirit, and so there is a chakra system in Taoism that's at least 2,000 years old. And then in Tibetan medicine there is a very close link with Vajrayana, tantra, yoga, yoga, and this is where we find a lot of earlier references to the chakra system, historically as well. Now the way that we can understand the historical context and start to look at the different types of chakra systems that have evolved is basically three historical periods of time, and what we have now, what most people are familiar with in our contemporary Western culture, is actually a Western creation. It is the translation of much older systems that were brought to the West and popularized in the late 1800s and early 1900s in the late 1800s and early 1900s, by people who were actually closely aligned with the Theosophist Society and people like Leadbeater, who wrote a very popular book called the Chakras in the 1920s. And basically what was happening in the late 1800s and early 1900s was that people were finding out about India, they were finding out about yoga.

Speaker 2:

Yoga was coming to the West and, as yoga was coming to the West, westerners were hearing about the chakras and, instead of actually delving deeply into the teachings and the lineages and the scriptures and the practices, what these Westerners did was they tried to explain it in Western terms and therefore, when you look at the origins of the contemporary chakra system, they're all associated with endocrine glands and they're associated with nerve centers. Okay, now, this is a modern interpretation, because the chakra system was not previously associated with endocrine glands or nerve centers. If you go back far enough, it's because they didn't even know about them medically. So this is what sets apart the contemporary Western system of the chakras from the classical historical system, from the classical historical system, and this gives us a lot of things to explore, because if there is a completely different interpretation of the chakras, that means there's also a completely different interpretation of what they're for and what to do with them. So what we have in the contemporary Western system of the chakras is really what we could call a system of biopsychology, and this does overlap somewhat with the historical interpretation.

Speaker 2:

But what we have is a kind of psychological orientation to the chakra system which gives certain kinds of attributes emotionally, mentally, psychically, spiritually to the different chakras, and this is a system of correlations. And these correlations are valid, but they're not really the original purpose of the chakra system. So a very simple example we say, well, your throat chakra is open, that means that you are able to express yourself. Well, okay, throat chakra is closed. You, you know, are basically blocking verbal communication. This is biopsychology. Okay, the biological part of it is the throat, and then the ability to express oneself is the psychological or the emotional.

Speaker 2:

Now, that's an incredibly simplified version, of course, but that's the fundamental concept in the contemporary Western system. Now, this has benefits. It's a way of people to increase their self-knowledge and their self-awareness, it gives people a model for self-transformation and self-understanding and so forth. But it's not really what is the purpose of the older systems, but that's also a pretty extensive answer to your introductory question. So why don't I just pause here before I jump into that larger question that I have just raised, which is what is the purpose of the older systems?

Speaker 1:

So that is my next question, but before that, if you could share your wisdom, your knowledge I think you did go into this in what you were just saying. As far as why did we need the? I don't know if I'm saying it's called the simplification of the chakra system or the translation. Why was it we needed that translation as this knowledge moved from the east to the west, or if I don't know if I'm saying that with translation.

Speaker 2:

No, that's a great, that's a good point.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so why did we need that in the first place?

Speaker 2:

Well, I don't really know what was in the mind of these translators that were bringing it over, but what I suspect is that they didn't actually know the culture deeply and they didn't appreciate the depth of what these teachings were about. And they were looking for a way to make it acceptable to the Western mind. They were trying to translate things into our modern scientific understanding that was coming out and we had understanding at that point of an endocrine system and endocrine glands and the nervous system. And so they took these teachings and they didn't have I don't think they had a lot of information. They just had these teachings, these pictures of the chakra systems, and they were basically trying to explain what were these things. And they were saying oh well, let's look at this first chakra. Here it correlates with the sacrum, okay, so therefore it must be the sacral chakra, or the seventh chakra at the top of the head must be this particular endocrine gland. So I think that they were doing this because they were trying to validate it, because this system of the chakras was basically introducing a concept that was not medically viable, it was not medically plausible, and that is that there's a subtle nervous system. Well, no scientist is going to agree with that. No doctor is going to agree with that.

Speaker 2:

And this is a debate. Actually, this was a debate not just in this translation into the West, but people in India were rejecting their own traditions. At that time also, people in India were being strongly influenced by Western science and they were rejecting the chakras. You see, they were saying the chakras don't exist. You know, a surgeon can't find them, and so what was happening was that they were trying to validate it, I think. I think that they were trying to find an explanation for something that science would deny exists. But that takes us to a very fundamental question, and that is if all of these practitioners, yogis, and these lineages and yoginis doing all these practices, we're doing something with the chakras, and something must be there. There must be something.

Speaker 2:

And this takes us to a really interesting topic, which is that there's more to the human body than physical anatomy. There's a subtle nervous system. Okay, now, that subtle nervous system is what the early translators were trying to validate. They were trying to say there is something there that is an energy body, and that's where we start to get the first translations of things like prana body, rainbow body, you know, illusory body. That's where we start to get this, and this has a historical context. It goes very far back, but what we're talking about is not physical. What we're talking about is the interface between mind and matter, and therefore it cannot be found physically. It can only be experienced subjectively in meditation.

Speaker 2:

So this is a fundamental aspect of understanding the chakras and a fundamental misunderstanding in our Western culture, and that is that we are told that here are these seven chakras and they're depicted here in these particular centers, and they are associated with these endocrine glands and these nerve centers, and they are things, okay, they exist, all right, but they don't exist according to science and anatomy, all right. And so therefore, how can it be that we have all this information about this aspect of the body and it can't be found? Body and it it can't be found? Well, that's where we enter into the exploration of the body and mind interface. In other words, the chakras are not actual things. They are more like a map of the inner landscape that can be discovered in meditation. Okay, so that's a completely different view of what the body is. And so, to go back to your question, that the process of translating things into this kind of anatomical, scientific, medical view.

Speaker 2:

I think was done primarily because the chakra system was already regarded with great skepticism in India and they were becoming modernized and they were just saying, look, this stuff doesn't exist. And by saying it doesn't exist, they were missing the point. And by saying it doesn't exist, they were missing the point. Okay, and by trying to translate it into an anatomical or psychological model, they were also missing the point. And that's what's really fundamental. What was the point? Okay, what was the purpose of the original systems, you see?

Speaker 2:

So I think what happened was historically, if we go back, the chakra system started a long time ago and the cultures were very different in the iconography, the pictures of the chakras that were painted, the depictions of the chakras. They came from a completely different experience of the human body and by the 1800s they were already being rejected because modern science was saying it's not real. And I think that's the answer to why they tried to explain it in the terms that they did. But it misses the point. And then the question becomes well, what is the point? So I could pause there before we delve into that. What is the point of the old chakra system?

Speaker 1:

So I can tell you that, because I'm a a practicing physician and my interest in anything beyond allopathic medicine started during a yoga class. The yoga instructor her name's Sarah Lavi, I just love her dearly. She was. We were somewhere in the middle of the class and I was just attending her classes, thinking I loved being a student of yoga and I practiced medicine and I didn't think I would get any further into these, this realm. Then she made a condom, a comment that was completely random to her at the time, but and I asked her about this later but she said well, we'll practice this pose.

Speaker 1:

So many of this do this, and if you do this incorrectly, this is why your thyroids don't work. This is why you have thyroid disorders. And that caught my attention, because in my day job I treat a lot of thyroid disorders and what we learn in traditional medicine is it just happens, don't ask any more questions. We don't know why people's thyroid stop working, but they just stop working and don't ask, and that's what. So that's what piqued my interest, like, wait a minute, she just gave an explanation. But I've been practicing almost 10 years and not one attending physician had ever let me ask why would a woman's thyroid fail beyond limited, but they really would just stop right there. So, yes, so why don't we? I think the next place we were going to go to is what was? Was it the original purpose of the ancient chakra system?

Speaker 1:

yeah yeah, so yes, what was the purpose?

Speaker 2:

Let's talk about it. But now that you've raised this question about the glands, I will mention that there is absolutely a correlation between the glands and the chakras, but it's much more complicated than we actually understand it in the contemporary chakra system. So let's just go back to the throat chakra. For example, is the thyroid connected to the throat chakra? Well, from the standpoint of endocrinology, not really, but there's an anatomical proximity. So therefore, this is something that we have to approach very carefully, and you know, as a physician, that people can use the wrong models of diagnosis and treatment, and so if a person is having a thyroid disorder, that doesn't necessarily mean that they have a fifth chakra disorder, and it doesn't necessarily mean that doing exercises for the throat chakra will correct the thyroid or that correcting the thyroid function will have anything to do with the functions of the throat chakra. So that's where we have to kind of. We have an opportunity now to actually finish the translation process. It started in the 1800s, because we have so much more science and understanding now, and so we can delve into the relationship between the chakras and the glands and the hormones. And it's a fascinating study because if we look at the throat chakra, for example, we say, well, what are the mechanisms of speech? Okay, well, part of it is neurological, a great deal of it is neurological, okay. And so we have, you know, the vocal centers, speech centers in the brain, and they can be compromised by neurodegenerative conditions. And that's very closely related to the auditory centers, because our speech is very related to what we are hearing and what we are talking about, and this is related very much to, you know, our internal discursive thought, which is our ego and sense of self. And then there's all the mechanisms of how the larynx works, and then there's the breath and the exhalation, and so it's connected to the chest and the lungs. And so we see, then, that the throat chakra is actually a meeting point of diverse anatomical functions. And this is true for every chakra. Is that, if we look at the contemporary explanation of the chakra system and we look at it from the standpoint of biopsychology standpoint of biopsychology, we find, for example, that the first and second chakras are frequently correlated with fear. But what we know now is that we can translate this into neurology, basically our understanding of neurochemistry and neuroanatomy, and we find that the center of fear in the, in the brain, is the amygdala. Okay, and therefore we could say that, okay, fear is associated with the root chakra because it represents a kind of primordial state connectedness, root chakra. It's easy to understand why fear is connected to, you know, the root chakra, primordial instinct, okay, but fear is actually taking place in the body, primarily through the amygdala, and therefore we see that the first chakra is actually in the brain. Okay, now this actually creates a really interesting new concept of what the chakras are, which is that maybe the chakras are like this holographic projection of the inside of the brain, you see. So that's a different topic, but it gives us some further insight that we can translate, because we have a lot more resources available now to understand what the chakras are and translate them even more effectively than in the 1800s. But again, that's not the original purpose, and so let's go to that topic Now.

Speaker 2:

The chakras came out of a spiritual revolution or evolution that started happening in the in the first few centuries AD. Okay, so there was a period of time that started and was really going very strong, around 500, 600, 700 AD, and that's, historically, where a lot of development began with this system. Now, what was revolutionary about it was that this was actually the first time in human, religious and spiritual history where there was a completely new concept that was being articulated, and that concept was that the universe is inside of us, okay. Now, previously there had been a very strong emphasis God is outside of us, okay. And then that has continued on in the world religions Okay, god is somewhere else and you know, if we behave, we'll go to heaven. Okay, that's kind of the basis of organized world religions.

Speaker 2:

But this was being countered by, specifically, the lineages that were unfolding and developing that were body-based, and that was Tantra and Madhuryana and Taoism and inner alchemy, and these lineages were postulating and articulating, in a way that had never been done before, that the universe exists inside the body, that the body is a microcosm of the entire universe. Now, that's a fundamental transformation in our identity. Okay, if we delve into what that implies, that implies that cosmological intelligence that created the universe is also what created the body. Cosmological intelligence that created the solar system and the earth is what created the biosphere, and the intelligence that operates, maintains the biosphere of the earth is the same intelligence that creates, maintains the human body. Now, if we understand that, then we start to see what these lineages were pointing to.

Speaker 2:

And so if you look at the iconography of the chakras through that lens, they look completely different. What they look like is they look like a map. They look like a map of the universe inside the microcosm of the body. And that's exactly what they were. They were saying that the five elements earth, water, fire, air, space line up in the physical body the same way that they line up in the outer universe. Now this concept was very widespread by a thousand years later and we actually see that this is also the basis of Kabbalah and this is the basis of European alchemy and we hear things like as above, so below, and we see things that look very much like chakra depictions in the European alchemical traditions as well. So the basis of the chakras then changes, okay, and it becomes a map of the inner landscape that shows how we are the universe.

Speaker 2:

Now that's still there in contemporary Western chakra system to some degree and the link is with kundalini yoga and, you know, raising the energy up through the chakra system, and that is what the earlier systems were about. But they were very much concerned with a fundamental goal and that is what sets aside, sets apart these lineages from contemporary Western use of the chakra system, contemporary biopsychology, our Western system of spirituality in general, including the contemporary view of the chakras, doesn't really have a well-articulated ultimate purpose, whereas in classical Asian lineages especially, this is where we start to see this radical change, revolutionary development, which is that not only is there this vision that the universe is inside the body, that we are the universe, but there is also, for the first time in human history, a very clear goal articulated of a spiritual purpose. Okay, and that has been a source of confusion ever since, because it's been articulated in many different ways, using lots of different terms, and it's very hard to understand what that experience is. But now we have very clear expression starting about, you know, 500, a AD or so that, and it actually goes back further. It actually goes to 500 BC, because that's when Buddha became enlightened, okay, and so now we have this new human experience enlightenment, okay, a transcendent state of consciousness that can be achieved, and someone did it, and someone did it so profoundly that it created 2500 years of spiritual history and practice of people attempting to do it also. And so the goal was then articulated in the Buddhist lineage as enlightenment, or in the Vedic lineage, it became self-realization. In the Taoist lineage, it became illumination or immortality lineage. It became illumination or immortality. In the Tibetan Vajrayana tradition, it became achieving the rainbow body.

Speaker 2:

So what we see, then, is that, for the first time in human spiritual history, we have a goal that is articulated, and it is a transcendent goal. It is a goal that represents our highest human capacity, and it's cognitive. That's the thing. It's cognitive, it is based on our own awareness. So this cognitive state is defined in lots of different ways, and it is very confusing because people don't actually know, well, what are we trying to do? Get enlightened. What does that actually mean to get enlightened?

Speaker 2:

Well, with the chakra system, it became even more confusing because we're supposed to do all of these things with our breath and we're supposed to raise the kundalini up and all of this. But if we look at the phenomena of what the yogis were doing in the Himalayas the tantric vajrayana yogis using these systems, what they were doing was they were controlling their physiology to enter into very deep states of blissful meditation. Okay, now that raises a very interesting question Do we need the chakra system to enter into blissful meditation, or is the chakra system just one system? And, from what I can tell, people have been finding ways to enter into blissful meditation all over the world all the time, in all kinds of different cultures, you see. So that raises another question, and that is if we are activating the kundalini and entering into this blissful state, well, what happens if we don't know? What happens if we don't even know about chakras? Okay, do we have to know about chakras to enter into that meditative state? I think there's plenty of examples in other cultures of people entering into meditative states.

Speaker 2:

But then the question is well, are those meditative states activating our chakras instead? All right, that's sort of the answer. It's not really as clear as it could be. The answer is historically, the purpose of the chakras, first of all, was to understand that the universe is inside of us and to use that as an inner map to attain an ultimate state of consciousness. So then the question is well, what is this ultimate state of consciousness? And this was clearly articulated as part of the chakra system, and this is what's missing in the Western contemporary teachings. What's missing from the modern contemporary chakra system is one word, and that is samadhi.

Speaker 2:

Okay, Samadhi, and samadhi was the goal, and the chakra system was one of the ways of achieving samadhi, and so samadhi was well articulated in all of the classical Asian lineages. It was articulated in Taoism. It was articulated in Buddhism and in the Vedas and in Tantra. Every one of these lineages had one specific goal that was articulated. It was very similar, which is samadhi. Now, samadhi is the goal of yoga. It's clearly stated that samadhi is the goal.

Speaker 2:

But what is samadhi? Samadhi is a state of consciousness. What is samadhi? Samadhi is a state of consciousness and that is described in very different terms and this was very helpful for me to understand when I actually started to research just that word, to delve into the teachings about that one word samadhi. One word samadhi.

Speaker 2:

I discovered that there are all kinds of samadhis. There are all kinds of blissful meditative states, and those meditative states have different levels of self-recognition, all the way to the deepest samadhi where one is not even aware of oneself. Now, when one goes so deep into meditation that they're not even aware of themselves anymore, then they have transcended and they have left behind the body. They have re-entered into union with primordial awareness, and that is what the chakra system points to. Now, if we take that map concept, what we can see is that the body represents the universe and the first chakra is associated with the earth element. That's the foundation, and so the goal, then, is that we want to move from the earth to the seventh chakra, which is associated with formless awareness. That is, a symbolic level of the chakra system, is that we want to move from earth to pure consciousness. That's understood in yoga, that's part of the contemporary system also, but then the question is how is this done?

Speaker 2:

Now, for myself, what I have learned from these studies is that the more we know about these systems, the more we can work with them without being dogmatic or having to follow a particular system. So, therefore, in the kundalini system, there's a great emphasis on there is this hidden power, and we want to activate it and force it through the chakras and open them up and transcend. Now. That's really a powerful system and it's good to know about and to learn about, and it's good to practice it. If you're in your 20s and you're in good shape and you don't have a hernia and you can do intensive deep belly breathing, okay.

Speaker 2:

But we have to be very careful about translating this and and thinking well, this is, this is what we have to do now. What those yogis were doing with those intensive practices was that they were entering into states of breath control that was very advanced and physiological control that was very advanced, and they were able to heat up their body so that they could meditate in the snow, and it was a very blissful experience. So they could sit there for days and days and meditate and remove the obstacles of physical discomfort. But those are not things that are possible for most Westerners now. So there are two systems Clearly described. There's a forceful system and the not forceful system, and the not forceful system is based on the complete opposite, which is we let go, let go, let go, let go.

Speaker 2:

Now let's say, all right, let's start with the first chakra. What are we letting go of? Instead of saying, well, this is where the goddess Shakti is dormant and we want to wake her up with these intense breathing exercises, fire, breath. We want to wake up the goddess Shakti and bring her up the spine to meet her consort, brahma Keshiva. Well, okay, but what if we don't have energy anymore because we're, you know, too old to do that? What can we do instead?

Speaker 2:

Well, we can understand that the root chakra is the force of gravity. That's a deep esoteric teaching. The root chakra is gravity, it's the center of gravity. Well, gravity means a lot of different things. The root chakra is actually earth element, and earth element is substance, and substance is heavy, and this is the physical body, and the physical body is dense, and so we see all of these associations with the first chakra.

Speaker 2:

We can develop a whole mandala of understanding what the first chakra is. And it's heaviness, it's being bound to matter, and so gravity is not just physical gravity. Gravity is also what holds consciousness in matter, and it's also, at a deeper level, what causes reincarnation. The mind is drawn to a body, so there's a kind of magnetic attraction to the earth that causes us to be reborn over and over, according to these systems. And we want to transcend that, because when consciousness becomes embodied, it becomes bound by time and space, and that's the fundamental cause of suffering, which is that we start to age, we get sick and the body dies, and that's what these systems were trying to tell us is. There is an ultimate state that is beyond that. Okay, so liberation, emancipation from that.

Speaker 2:

And so, therefore, what we see is that at the other side of these forceful practices and this will be the last point, and I'll stop again at the other side of these forceful practices, there are the practices of letting go, and one teaching that I found very profound comes from one of these systems of using the chakras that was articulated about 500 years ago, and that is what do we do at death with our chakra system. What do we do at death? And we are instructed in this practice to bring the attention to the and to remember our divine nature, and then to bring that attention to the root chakra and dissolve our attachment to the earth, to the physical form, to this life, let go of the earth element, and that will allow the consciousness then to rise into the second chakra. And in the second chakra we let go of the water element and we let go of sexuality and reproductive urges and everything that's associated with water and that allows consciousness then to rise into the third chakra. And there we let go of fire element, our metabolic warmth and power and all the things that are associated with the third chakra, and that allows consciousness to rise back to the heart. And we let go of the elements, one at a time, and so earth dissolves into water and water dissolves into fire, and fire dissolves into air, and air dissolves into space, and this is described in many of the tantric systems, as what happens when consciousness leaves the body, the elements dissolve into each other, one at a time.

Speaker 2:

But we can practice that, we can reproduce it, and that's also what we do in meditation. Naturally, because if we are going into meditation, first thing we do is we just let go of the body, the tension, we relax the body, then we start to relax and feel like we're becoming lighter, and we gradually become lighter and lighter until we basically are entering into the space element and then, from the space element, consciousness returns to Brahma. Now that can be reproduced in every meditation session without force. It can be done by letting go instead of forcing the breath to be constrained. Okay, so that's the long, detailed answer of what was the ultimate purpose. It was to use the relationship of mind and matter inside the microcosm of the universe, inside the body, to achieve an ultimate goal of transcendence.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for joining us for this very special episode. Make sure that you sign up for alerts on your favorite podcasting app or for my newsletter, because part two of this enlightening, in-depth, insightful interview will be out next week.

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