Using Motivational Interviewing to enhance conversations with our sporting children - 'A conversation with Orla Adams'

In this episode Motivational Interviewing expert and trainer and sports parent Orla Adams joins Gordon MacLelland to discuss 'Motivational Interviewing' and how it can help us as sports parents enhance the quality of conversations and navigate some of the difficult moments we face with our young people around their sporting experience.

During the conversation they discuss amongst other things:

• 'Motivational Interviewing' and its place in sports parenting and the world of sport
• The importance of identifying strengths, skills and abilities in our young people
• Creating space for our children to share their perspectives and points of view
• How we can become more self-aware of the moments and approach we take to have the most impactful conversations
• How instilling a fear of failure, focussing on weaknesses and making comparisons may have such negative connotations
• Tips and strategies for setting up the most difficult conversations that we can't avoid with our children
• How using scaling techniques may help us communicate effectively with our children whilst encouraging self-evaluation
• The importance of being able to listen well and what does that actually mean?

Orla  Adams is the Dietetic Lead for Maternal Weight Management in Cardiff and Vale University Health Board and she divides her time between this and delivering Motivational Interviewing (MI) training across the UK to various disciplines.  

Orla attended her first MI workshop in 2006, became a member of MINT (Motivational Interviewing Network of Trainers) in 2011, and gained MINT certification as an MI Trainer in 2023.  Orla is originally from Belfast, Northern Ireland and lives in Cardiff with her husband and two sons.  

She is a sports parent and has been finding value in how MI has been helpful in some of the more challenging conversations.  

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:13

Welcome to season five of the Parents in Sport Podcast. I am your host, Gordon Maclelland, and I'm delighted to be joined today by dietitian and motivational interviewing trainer Orla Adams. Orla, thank you for joining us on the show.

Speaker 0:28

Oh, it's a pleasure, Gordon. Thanks for asking. I never need to be asked twice to talk about motivational interviewing. So it's a it's an honor.

Speaker 1 0:36

Uh it's really exciting to have you on. And even better that we know that you have uh been a sports parent as well. So you'll be able to relate to many of the things um that we're going to talk about today. Some of you may be asking, why on earth are we talking about motivational interviewing? Well, it's a key part of all of our conversations that we have with our children. And many of us who struggle with those conversations with our teenagers, who are more likely to grunt at us when we are wanting uh responses about their lives and their world, I thought it'd be a good opportunity uh to get all of and maybe point us uh in the right direction. But before we get started, um Orla, can you just tell our listeners uh a little bit about yourself and your background?

Speaker 1:25

Sure. Um so I am a dietitian working in the National Health Service in Cardiff and Vale, and I work in the maternity services. So I work with pregnant women who have a higher uh body mass index. And I've been in practice now for 21 years. And um I come from Belfast originally, but came to Cardiff to study and have stayed and married a Welshman. Um, but yeah, I I came to MI, which is what we call it, uh it's just easier than saying motivational interviewing all the time. But I came to come to MI early in my career out of frustration. Um, I was trying to persuade people to make healthy choices. I was trying to um fear people into making healthy choices and change their lifestyle, and all of that was ineffective. And I was searching for a way to have more effective communication with the patients that I was working with. And in 2006, I came across motivational interviewing uh with Professor Rollnick in Cardiff. And it was in that workshop that I thought I was going to learn some tricks and tools, and I quickly discovered that it was a lot about self-reflection, how I communicated my listening skills, how I asked questions, how I gave advice. And so it was a big change for me. Um, and it wasn't a quick fix either. It was something I've been learning since then. Um, and then it has it has sort of uh come into all parts of my life. Communication with many people I meet, with my friends, my family, my teenage son, um, yeah, uh, colleagues that I work with, teams, uh, supervision of students. I don't think there's an area of life where a part of motivational interviewing hasn't had a benefit in some way. So yeah, that's where I am now.

Speaker 1 3:21

Yeah, and I and I think that was why we were we were so keen to um get you on the show, because I think for many, there'll have been aspects or types of conversation that everybody will have had where there will be something around motivational interviewing in there. Either we did it brilliantly or we did it very, very badly, but there'll be aspects of uh of that. And certainly I think in the sports world and and the work that we do, which is predominantly about the building of great relationships between organizations, coaches, parents, um, and their children, that actually for every single one of us, um, that self-reflection, self-awareness piece, um, how we navigate difficult conversations. Because I think just by the sheer nature of sport and how emotive it can be, and and recognizing that, you know, I think this is something that um I'm keen to learn more about. So can you just tell us um a little bit more about motivational interviewing and perhaps what it meant to you and the differences from perhaps how you saw the world prior to that? You know, you talked about how you tried to fear people, uh fear them into behavior change. Um, what's your take on all of that?

Speaker 4:43

Yeah. So the the background to MI, it evolved and emerged in the early 80s uh in the field of addictions. And it came from Professor Bill Miller, who was working in the field of addictions and felt that there had to be a more helpful way to speak to people about change, that trying to fear people into change and to make the future seem bleak if they didn't change. These approaches weren't helpful. And it comes from the work of Carl Rogers, a psychologist, uh working in the sort of 50s and 60s around person-centered communication and counselling skills. And the the premise of it and the base and foundation of person-centered counselling is that we see people for their strengths and their skills and abilities. We don't judge people, we try to see the world from their point of view and their perspective rather than putting ours onto them. And we're compassionate with people. And so Professor Miller had taken this foundation of Carl Rogers' work and the approaches that he was finding really helpful, and then looked at the focus of behaviour change and goal-oriented discussions and about people growing and developing. So it started in the early 80s and in the field of addiction and then evolved into healthcare, education, criminal justice, um, sports, uh, you name it, you know, when you look at research now, dentistry, veterinary practice, anywhere there's a conversation uh with a person, a communication where they're thinking about a change in some way, or maybe even when they're not thinking about a change in some way, these conversations are really helpful. And so your second part of the question, Gordon, how has it changed my perspective of things? I went into healthcare thinking I needed to fix people, that they didn't know themselves well enough to be able to make change, and I had to tell them how to do it, and that they had many deficits and failings, and they they just needed to be told what to do. Well, that's complete 360 for me. Um, I see people now for their strengths and skills and abilities. They know themselves better than I will ever know them. And what I go into these conversations now with is finding out from them why they want to change, what they get from it, what a difference it will make for them, and what ideas they've got about how they can do it. And so MI sits with a very listening, it's it listens deeply. It's not just listening to respond. Um, you listen to every word a person says, you hear their talk about change, their their why of change, and tap into all of that and let them hear it back again. Um, and that has really shifted all the conversations that I have in healthcare now. I was thinking of leaving the NHS uh when I was frustrated in the early years, and since coming to a motivational interview, and I never want to leave it, and I never want to leave conversations with people. Um I could go into management, I could go above, you know, but I never want to leave that one-to-one interaction that I have with people around their own healthcare.

Speaker 1 8:01

Yeah, and it it's amazing, it's an amazing tool and and something that that you know I think you can be aware of, but obviously someone of your expertise, I think it's a a lot of practice. And I and I I think that even then, uh, for many of us who aren't using it all the time or not being aware of it, you you know, you try and do little bits, but then it's very easy to revert to type. And um, I just hear a few of your words there from a sports parenting point of view, and I think about where sometimes we maybe see something and want to change something um in our children, either in what they're doing or their approach. And then I also think of the words you used frustrations, and I think the frustrations for us as parents, um, when I guess we want to write everything for our kids straight away because we're frustrated, and we think there's a quick fix solution, much like you were talking about there, where you were maybe fearing them into it and hoping that it would get some dramatic, quick results, and it doesn't really work. So, where do you think, from a sports parent perspective, and I know your son played ice hockey as well, where do you think it would be useful for us? So, what are some of the flash points where you can really see it having an impact for us?

Speaker 9:26

I think the biggest thing, you know, I used to sit on the ice shrink and I would watch him at training and in matches, and there would be times where he would just put in half effort and he wasn't giving it much, and I would sit on the sidelines so for like that, frustrated, just going, come on, get you know, do it, get stuck in. Um, and so the temptation, and because I'm feeling that emotion, as soon as he came off the ice, my temptation was to go, you didn't put in enough effort, you needed to give it more. I uh it's almost like I needed to voice that, and holding back on that was the toughest thing. They're often the flashpoints and the moment where it's so hard to hold back, but you hold back on it and saying to them, what was it like for you? How did you find that today? What was training like, and um what what was going on for you during that? So MI has a place where it has a we're curious and we want to find out from people, we want to hear their words and we hear their voice and their thoughts and their feelings about things. So for me, in those moments, if he came off really frustrated, or he came off angry, or he came off with an emotion or fed up or whatever, I could see it on his face as he would leave the ice. And my reaction would be then to say that to him, you're frustrated tonight, um, you're disappointed tonight with what happened, um, you're upset with what happened in the game. And that takes away the urge to try and fix it or to express our emotions. What we're saying to them is, This is what I see in you tonight. And you're tapping into that empathic response, empathic listening with people. And as humans, that's what we need most. If you ask anybody when you have a dilemma or you're going through anything upsetting, or uh you're frustrated and things don't change, what do we need from people? We don't need them to fix us or to tell us what to do. We need somebody who will listen and say, this is maybe what you're feeling and put a name to it. And it's it's more important, I think, for teenagers in that development stage where they can't name emotions very often. They know they're feeling turmoil and they know that they're angry or they know there's something that doesn't sit right. Um, and so to give it a name and to say this might be what you're feeling um really helps them to feel understood, um, they feel heard, and it it just starts to bring down the emotion a little bit, they feel understood, and that's a huge thing. Um yeah, and that's often a flashback, this frustration that we both feel on both sides.

Speaker 1 12:13

Yeah, I'm trying, I'm I'm thinking of the those moments where you've talked about that and where watching, and maybe the effort isn't there. And every parent will relate to this, those days where we get hotter under the collar, we get more and more, we get more and more frustrated, none of us can do anything about it. And actually, for lots of us, and I've been there and done it myself, is then our children come back to us, and we can't wait to launch in with our own opinions of how we see the world. Yeah, now I've got a little bit better at the bit you said, where it may be something to do with you know, lack of doing a skill, a poor decision, a poor result. The lack of effort one I would still find very difficult. And I think some parents would. The outcome one, I can cope with that and cope with the ups and downs. And I I I understand sport, and I've got better with age, and it's taken a bit of time with with my kids to get there. I think the effort one, I think, you know, and we use that as an example, I think that's more of a challenge because there's obviously a reason why it was perceived as a a lack of effort, but actually it's also one of those things where people say, Well, the least you can do is put the effort in, regardless of the outcome, which is a common phrase we hear in sport. I mean, what's your take on that one? It's the same, isn't it? Is it the same thing? Is it the same response?

Speaker 13:45

It's a it's a very different response because you want them to know that you've seen this and you want to find out what happened there that made you do so little this evening. Um, and so there will be a moment or a time when it's right to have that part of the conversation with them. And often it's not immediately after they come off whatever training or event or sport or competition, um, because that's when emotions are high and it can get quite emotive then. You get frustrated, they get annoyed, they shut down from us then. So, what I find helpful was taking MI and then thinking, right, this might be helpful for me now. And this is before I realized motivational interviewing had gone into the world of coaching and sport. This was years before. And so I thought, right, I'm not going to have this conversation with them now, but we need to deal with it because I can't sit there and watch that happen every training and every match. So, you know, we're putting in so much effort driving across the country for these things. Yeah. Um, and so I would maybe get home and he'd have some dinner and we'd be sitting down and I'd say, um, we'd just chat about it. I said, How did you find training tonight and start the conversation? And I wouldn't have distractions around me. So I wouldn't have my phone near me. I would make sure the TV's not on, there's no one else around, we've got a bit of time, and I'm not rushing for anything. Um, and so I say, How was training this evening? He's like, Oh yeah, I'm bored of this, you know, they don't give us any attention. He'll still they'll start, he was starting to blame other people for this. And so I just was curious. And I go, What do you mean? Tell me about it and what are you finding's happening and how do you feel when that happens? And I would reflect back each of his comments. And then I would say to him, Look, there's a couple of things I'm noticing happening in training, and I can share them with you or not. What do you want? And so I gave him the option to choose if I said this or not. Um, and 10, nine times out of 10, he would go, Well, what do you mean? What have you noticed? And he would allow me then to express this. And I say, I just noticed when I'm sitting there watching that there's times where you're not focused and not putting in the effort that some of the other kids are, and you know, what's going on there? And so I'm not feeling the emotion, I'm not frustrated in that moment. We're having a conversation away from the event itself. Um, I'm being curious with them. I've given him the autonomy, so I've honoured his autonomy, which in teenage years, they're fighting for that. They want that at every opportunity to someone to say, you have the right to choose. You're all, you know, you're moving into adulthood. It's so the best thing that I find from MI is honoring his autonomy across all conversations, even outside sport. I'll say, look, there's a couple of things that I've noticed, or I can tell you it's up to you if you want me to tell you them or not. And he's usually quite open to that, even when he's not in a great mood. Um, so I find that really helpful where I still have to say what I'm noticing happening because it can't carry on, um, but it's done in a way that he's more receptive to it than if I tried at other uh time points then.

Speaker 1 16:54

So, what I guess the question then, because obviously, and I think you're right, I've probably most times most of our children will say, Yeah, go on, I want to hear it. Yeah. What happens if we need to have that conversation at some point and we need to get a message across, but they don't want to hear it? Are we talking about a slightly different? I mean, that doesn't I wouldn't say that happens lots for people. What happens when we get to that stage though, where, you know, and it, you know, there'll be some things where you can ask that question, and it doesn't really matter whether our opinions heard or not, but what happens when it maybe goes up that level and they have to hear it, whether they want it? What what are we what are we thinking around that?

Speaker 17:38

Yeah, there's an approach in motivational interviewing where there are times in these conversations in healthcare where uh you can't avoid the subject. For and for an example, just to give you an example of that, it might be in child protection, uh, really serious conversations where there really isn't much choice for a parent in that situation where their child might be taken away. Um, and so the approach in those moments where it gets more serious and it has to be talked about, I will lead into it saying, Look, there's something I'm gonna have to say to you, and there's something we really need to talk about. It can't be avoided. Can we talk now? And what I do in that moment is ask permission. Um, and that's really important in motivational interviewing as well. It's respectful, it's still saying to this person, to the person, look, you I respect you. Uh, can we talk about this? We can't avoid it, though it has to be spoken about. And I've had a few of those situations with my son over the last year where there's things that we, you know, results coming back from school that we've needed to talk about and we can't avoid. And he wants to walk away. And I say, I know you don't want to have this conversation with me. This is uncomfortable for you. You're getting frustrated with me. I feel it. We need to talk about it. Um, and we can either talk about it now or we'll do it later or tomorrow, but it needs to be spoken about. And so I do it in a very calm sort of uh I don't bring in my emotions to it, but I do share my concerns about it. Um, and that has been helpful at times for the more serious conversations. Um, but they ask in permission. I do it with the kids all the time now, it's just part of my um practice uh with them. And I'll say, um, do you want me to help you with this? I can show you how to do that if you want me or to not. It's up to you. Um, can we talk about this now? Um, and the kids respond to it really well.

Speaker 1 19:35

Yeah.

Speaker 19:36

So I find that really helpful.

Speaker 1 19:37

I mean, I think that's that's absolute gold dust. And I think even then, I think the the bit where you're still giving them a choice of we are gonna have this conversation, even if it may not again be at that instant, that conversation's still going to happen. And actually, even most of us as adults know that there's certain conversations that are still gonna have to happen no matter how long we leave them for. It's almost in the back of your mind, and then you're like, Oh, I really need to get on and have this conversation, and then I can I can leave it. Um I think just I was thinking about some of the things you said, and I think linking it to the sports parenting thing, I mean, we know that there's definitely a sensitive period straight after training and competition, even at the highest end of sport, you know, where we've worked with parents whose whose kids have then gone to the Olympics, that that probably at least, well, it's at least that 25-30 minutes immediately after competition where everybody needs time to let their emotions get back to somewhere near normal before we start um having dialogues. I think there's probably flashpoints in sport where we're maybe upset as parents, we desperately want to go and ask questions, say something when things haven't gone according to plan yet. Actually, again, for coaches as well, that's probably not a great time to be having a conversation at uh meeting emotion points. Um, so I think there's that to consider um around all of this. Um, and I think the very interestingly this week, we've done lots of work with parents and we we've actually asked them when they have the best conversations with their children. Now, every family's going to be different. A couple say, actually, we're okay in the car. Uh, and that wasn't based around heightened emotion. I think it was the fact that their children maybe didn't have devices with them, there were no other distractions, and they were literally sat there, which obviously nods to what to what uh you were saying. But actually, there was also quite a lot, amazingly. Um, obviously, dinner times came up, but also quite a lot happened later at night towards bedtimes. There was a lot saying when everything settled down and everything was calm again, and they clearly, you know, this was teenagers as well who then didn't want. To sleep, and only at that point were they then willing to talk. And parents come back and said, Actually, do you know what that's the best times that we've been talking about their sport and how they feel, actually, it was how they feel as well about it all. Yeah, it's um yeah, and I I I think that it's uh it's an awareness thing, and I like that bit where we um ask permission. There's certainly something that um that I that I could learn from that rather than uh just wading in and deciding that now's the time um that we're going to have a conversation about it. Um is there anything else to add? Because I think teenagers, I mean, we've touched on it already, and you've talked about some of the things about you know, asking for permission, um, trying to get them to explain how they feel, really trying to listen to their responses. Um I get is it would I say reinforce, you know, that you've heard what they're actually saying, so you're almost talking it back to them. Is there anything else around teenagers that I mean, from a sports parenting point of view, I guess, where we just know we can get quite a lot of grunts out of our kids? Is there something maybe around types of questions, open questions, rather than them just allowing allowing them, you know, close questions that just go yes, no, or get nothing out of them? Is there anything around the types of question we can ask?

Speaker 23:23

Oh, very much so, yeah. So uh MI, when you look at the core skills, um the one of the core skills is open questions. And you know, it's that invitation to a person in a conversation to say, you know, I want to hear, uh, I'm curious about. Uh so the questions I'm asking my son are and because he decided to drop out of the sport in the end. And I had to sit on my emotions through that, but I wanted to hear his voice around it. And I was saying to him, how important is it to you to keep going in it? You know, what will you get from it? Uh, and hearing back his responses. Um, you know, how confident do you feel that you can carry on doing this, or how confident do you feel that you can pull that move, or how confident do you feel that you can um turn up to training uh in the right frame of mind all the time? So the importance question and confidence questions are really helpful. Um they explore motivation. So, how important is it to you to get to the next level? How important is it to you to um trying to think of other things that I would say to them? Um, how important is it to you that your team win this game that you are getting into now? Um, how confident do you feel that you can win these games? Um, because they were feeling a bit deflated, they'd had a few losses, and it was you could see it running through the team. And so I just thought I'll have a chat with him and see what he says. And the responses to those questions are usually things like, well, it's really important because um we don't want to keep losing, and I can see the effect it's having on us all. It was amazing as I asked this open question. He just he blossomed as he spoke about it, you know, and all this stuff came out that I didn't realise that he was thinking or feeling. And then the confidence question is around self-belief and self-efficacy, the belief that I can do something. How confident do you feel that you can do that? Um, and you tap into a person's confidence that they have already. So when I say to somebody, how confident do you feel that you can make this change or or do that the next time? And they'll say, Oh, yeah, I'm pretty confident. Um, and I say, What makes you feel confident? And they say, Oh, because I've done it before and I know I've got the skills and I know I can do this. And motivational interview, and another of its approaches is to focus on a person's strengths and skills, abilities and really draw them out. And the usual response to encouragement is praise, but in affirmation in motivational interviewing, it's different, it's not praise, it's real strength-based statements. Um, and so the open questions to draw out motivation and confidence, and then these affirmations that come in as well are really helpful, um, especially when you're getting the grunts and you're not hearing much. Um, yeah, it draws out a lot from them.

Speaker 1 26:27

And I think you've probably had one of the most difficult conversations already and been through it that I think most sports parents fear is the conversation when our kids come to us and say, I might not want to do this anymore. And we talk about it, you know, in advance of it and saying I think it is important that parents let their kids know that that conversation's on the table. Um we have got, we have been and spoken with um many young high performers, and we did have a 17-year-old boy who I'm sure will go to the Olympics one day. And um, when we asked him why he did his sport and what was motivating him, he said, I don't want to let down my mum and dad. Now, his mum and dad would have been mortified by that. There was there was no reason we didn't need to necessarily say anything to them, but obviously we're all aware that it's not the highest quality form of motivation you want. And I think parents, I think when you try to get speak to sports parents, they need to be when their kids are much younger and we're being a bit more self-aware of of some of these things that can go on. And that but you were talking about importance. I guess the conflict then comes when how our children see the world or how they see its importance doesn't maybe align with how we see it. Is that where the is that where the conflict's likely to come?

Speaker 27:57

Yeah, definitely. You know, it comes from values, isn't it? And what you hold important. Um, and that's a core part of motivation as well. So we change because we want to be in line with our values. And so for the parent, the value might be that their their child excels at a sport. That that might be a really highly held value for the child. That might not be their value, and their value might be friends, connections, um, you know, buildings, uh self-awareness, self-identity. Um, and so we can project our values onto our children and and and push for that, definitely.

Speaker 1 28:37

That's hard though, isn't it? I think that's a a hard one to step back from, hence, hence conversations like today, because I think anybody would say that's a a really tough, tough thing to sort of back away from. Um I think in many ways as well. Again, it's probably an easier thing to be aware of and back away from when perhaps our children's uh identities maybe aren't as tied to the sports that they're doing. You know, at the younger stages, it's a bit easier. The more their identity becomes, we more to see it more importantly in many in many cases. Um now we talked uh a little bit. Now, correct me if I'm wrong. I had Dan Abrahams on the Parents in Sport Podcast, and we were talking about um before games and competition, uh, the types of questions such as how are you feeling? Uh, how's your confidence out of 10? Uh, certainly after matches, Dan would say, tell me about that. How would you grade your performance out of 10? And our children might say six, and then our ability to ask them questions, say, well, what would have made it an eight? What would have made it a five? Um, so that we're getting them, we're almost teasing out, I guess, some of the um aspects of of motivational uh interviewing uh into that. I mean, what are your thoughts on this? Good good method for parents on a basic level to to, I guess, strip away emotion and open up some communication lines?

Speaker 30:08

Definitely scaling questions are you know um used throughout MI conversations. Um how they're used are differs, I've noticed in practice. So uh, for example, you mentioned the confidence question there, you know, um, how confident are you feeling um on a scale of one to ten, one being not confident at all, ten being very confident. And so if somebody, if the child says, Oh, six, yeah, feel really confident after that. Our temptation is to go, and what would, like you said, what would have made it a seven or an eight or bumped it up in motivational interviewing? It takes a slightly different approach first. It said, what made it a six? Um, it said, what made you say six? Um, and that's probably what some people are doing already. Um, but the temptation for change is always to jump forward and keep change moving and and to increase confidence. When you say to somebody, what made you say six out of ten? And they say, Well, because I did this and because I did that when my teammate responded, and and because I gave that a go today, and I normally don't, um, what you're getting them to say out loud are these strengths that they have, skills and abilities, and really and uh like emphasize and shine a light on it. And so then the next part of the question is, and what might have made it a seven? And they say, Well, what I could do next time is yeah, so there's an extra stage, isn't there?

Speaker 1 31:35

Which is really this is really, yeah. So there's the extra stage to the dialogue, isn't there? That in MR you are looking to reinforce the positives, the strengths before trying to, I guess, stretch and support, isn't it? Would be the phrase than just trying to stretch and support. Um how about the you know, I was thinking I do joke with parents about this, it's a bit flippant. And I think when you ask that question afterwards, how would you have scored your performance and your children say, Well, I would have given it an eight. Uh, I do say to parents, you can't then say, Well, I gave it a three. Yeah. Which, which, you know, must cross our mind. And and and it well, it does, and you know it does. And I I I think that I mean, one of the key psychological characteristics for developing excellence in high performers is their ability to um evaluate performance really well. Yeah, you know, in high performance get really good. And actually, what we're talking about there, the scaling, these type of questions, we're actually helping them in a very key, I guess, performance trait for whatever walk of life on that. It's a real awareness and an understanding of what they're involved in.

Speaker 32:48

Yeah, of cornness, definitely. You know, that self-awareness is a huge thing, isn't it? Self-awareness for us as parents, self-awareness for us as health practitioners, you know, what I'm thinking and feeling in these conversations is so important to be aware of because it then predicts or dictates my response. So if I'm watching my son do something and I'm thinking, oh, come on, you need to be putting in more than that, and go, oh, you know, you you've missed out on that. That's a missed opportunity. If I'm thinking that, um, and he comes off and I'm like, oh, you missed a couple of opportunities. Um, whereas if in my mind I think I can see what you're doing well, I can see what your efforts are, I can see what you're trying to do. These are the things that you are actually doing. Um, but self-awareness is a huge part of it. And um this is the biggest change for anyone learning motivational interviewing. Um, it's like I mentioned earlier, the biggest shift was for me. I was judging people, I was internally criticizing them, I was not accepting them for who they were. Um, I was just picking up their faults and their deficits. Um, whereas now my way of thinking when I sit with someone is you're a strong person, you have so many qualities, I'm curious about you and what's led up to this point in your life. What do you want for yourself? And what can I do to support that happening? That's a complete mind shift change for anyone. And if you speak to anyone who's learnt or learned an MI or practiced it for a long time, they'll say it wasn't so much the actual skills they were using, it was the change in the way they thought and were feeling about people.

Speaker 1 34:34

Yeah, so it's the change in thoughts, yeah, and feelings. Because I think that there's lots of things you've taught there where you flipped it on the head and you think, well, when you watch our children, it is easy because I guess sport and society has told us to try and pick out the things and the emotions of things that are going well and not going so well. And we tend to focus on the deficits, yeah. Because that we think, well, if we solve the deficits, the world's going to be absolutely brilliant. And as you say, then we miss the strength. And you get that in quite a lot of analysis. I've been talking to a lot of sports recently about how much training are we giving parents who sit and watch analysis of matches with the children. Because I reckon in the vast majority of the cases, you get people who go through, flick the bits that were actually really good, and then find the 10 bits that were full. Because you know, you know, and actually that's going the opposite of what we're talking about here. Yeah, the children will be aware what those mistakes were anyway. They they most of them will know that. That's fascinating. And I think the the comparison one is also interesting. I I'm so fortunate. I get to speak to thousands of young people involved in sport, and I get to ask them really good questions like when are mum and dad at their best and the worst, and when are your coaches at the best and the worst? And we have really good chats about the world according to them. And I'm, you know, not a sports site, but I get a chance with a I guess a neutral voice to speak to them with some understanding of the sports world. And one of their top three answers for when parents and coaches are at the worst is when we compare them to other kids.

Speaker 36:15

Yes.

Speaker 1 36:17

And I think I I think a lot about it, I don't know how you feel, just as a parent with that. Do you think that and we're going slightly off on a tangent? Do you think the world of social media has not helped that in so much that we didn't have as many comparisons made on us, but they're comparing themselves all the time?

Speaker 36:36

It's constant comparison, isn't it? And constant trying to achieve what they're seeing on social media or live by that, or this, you know, it can highlight a real um sort of deficit for them, almost like, well, I'll never be like that. Um, yeah. So there's always, you know, comparisons across the board. You know, I see it in healthcare uh with my teenager, um, certainly in the sport, and I fell into the trap of that. And he would come off, and I I could hear myself saying, I think, I know I don't want to be saying this, but I'd say, look at the effort that so-and-so put in. They gave it everything tonight. It probably didn't help that I was sitting next to their mom and their mom's like, Yes, he's amazing, he's amazing. And I'm sitting there going, Oh my god, my child is barely moving on the ice tonight. Um, so yeah, comparison's a huge thing, isn't it? And so trying to avoid falling into that trap, that's self-awareness. Again, it comes back to that. It's noticing what you're thinking and feeling and really quickly thinking, do they need me to say this? Is this helpful for me to say? And really questioning ourselves on the spot immediately. So a lot of that happens in these conversations with my teenager where emotions are high. And my urge is to like just say it out loud. Very quickly, I go, don't say it like that, or hold back, don't try to fix it. He doesn't need to hear this right now. And so, yeah, comparison's a really tricky area, isn't it? You know, especially well, more so in sport, probably.

Speaker 1 38:04

Yeah, and I think that what I think it's a really good question is do I need to say it now? I think it's just a really good starting point. And one of the other things that spins off in in dialogues that we have with parents is our ability to want to write what right things when our kids are upset and disappointed.

Speaker 38:24

Yeah, of course.

Speaker 1 38:24

And the reality in sport is there are so many normal things that are gonna happen. And I say this to parents all the time. I said it was the same 50 years ago, it'd be the same 50 years from now. You are gonna have, you're gonna win, you're gonna lose, you're gonna draw, you're gonna have the best days, the worst days. The average days above average days, less than average days, you're gonna get injured, you're gonna fall out with a coach, you're gonna fall out with a teammate, you are going to get beat. The world is not gonna treat you right, and you're not gonna get equal game time. Somebody's gonna make a decision that really affects you. And I think a bit like your question there about do I need to say something, they always say, Well, how do you know when to inv intervene, Gordon? And I always sort of say, Well, just ask yourself, is it tolerable? Is it something that is actually just a normal part of being in sport? And if you left your child for a short period of time, would they be able to pull themselves around? And in most cases, young people do. Yeah, that urge, that urge, particularly at those points when our kids are disappointed to step in, yeah. Um, is just huge, isn't it? I mean, you must have seen that. You must it's it's ten times harder when our kids are upset, isn't it?

Speaker 39:38

It is, yeah. And you're right, Gordon. The urge is to go, it'll be okay, don't worry, it'll be fine. Um, you know, you're doing the best you can. We we try to make people feel better, and that's human, that's human nature, isn't it? We don't like watching someone suffer or be distressed, so we try to make it better. Um, and a motivational interview and the response is different. It's not saying, oh, don't worry, it'll be okay. It's saying you're upset and you know, this didn't go the way you wanted it to. Um, and that just sit with the emotion. And when young people are developing emotional intelligence, we're supporting that whenever we say things like, you're really upset today, um, you're really disappointed, this didn't go the way you wanted it to. When we start to say the name of the emotion, they're able to then connect what they're feeling here. It will, I'm pointing to my sort of like chest, uh, they're what they're feeling here, uh, and connect it with what is going on in their mind. Um, and that helps them with emotional intelligence. I do I did it with my two-year-old. Uh, before they developed language, this was something that I took from MI as well. They would have a tantrum or get frustrated, and you can see them like starting to uh sort of boil over almost. And I'm saying, you're really angry, you're really annoyed now. Um, you you're you're annoyed with mummy. Um they'll go, yeah. And just that moment, even if they're not really understanding me, it's starting to develop this emotional language um that is really helpful for future years around mental well-being, emotional intelligence as adults as well.

Speaker 1 41:18

Yeah, I was gonna say that. I think the bit for me, and it it's linked in then to what I hear from, you know, perhaps some coaches, but also from people taking on young people in the workplace. Again, we could be linking these in some ways to devices, is their inability to communicate effectively anymore. And and and actually we need to get them to talk, don't we? We've got to find ways. We say this all the time to parents, we've got to let them find ways to ask them or let them talk and tell us how they see the world because they see it very differently to adults as well. Of course. Um massively tough, isn't it? It's a it's a real culture shift, you know. And I I think in a westernized society, it's a big culture shift. Certainly, some of the countries I work with around the world in in sport, that is even more of a culture shift because of the hierarchy in their society and and how it works, and that that's a real challenge. That's what that's one for another day. Um, just the I guess the final topic. We've done a lot about the the types of question, the self-awareness, a few tips and tricks, certainly in there. Although I am emphasizing, as all the said at the beginning, it isn't just a case of having a tip and a trick, it is going to require some practice, and that means we'll fail and mess it up, but that's okay um as well, because we'll already be better than maybe what we were doing. The listening side of it, because I'll put my hands up here, even not just with my kids, sometimes I don't listen particularly well. Uh, I was talking to coaches about this as well. Um, I was thinking actually, from a coach perspective, sometimes when parents either attack us as coaches or criticize us, um, it's very easy for us just to be not really listening, but just thinking how we're going to defend ourselves and respond because that's what it triggers in a lot of us. How can we listen better? How can we um, I guess, resist the urge to write the wrong for our kids? Any advice on on listening that that we could maybe take away as a final pointer for us today?

Speaker 43:37

Well, it takes practice, you know, and it's uh but so Professor Rollnick, he Professor Stephen Rollnik is the co founder of motivational interviewing and he talks about decluttering your mind. So he said, if you know you're gonna have to listen, he said for really quickly, he said. Take out all the other stuff that's going on in your head and focus on the person and uh give them the time and attention to really hear their words because it's often what's not said that we're listening for. It's the words don't always convey what's really going on for someone. And so it's easier said than done, and it does take practice, but to listen deeply means us clearing out what's going on in our heads. I am, and I know as a mum and working and all sorts of things and multiple things to manage, that when my children, particularly our teenager, when he does come down and talk, me and my husband do this thing where we turn around and we look at him and we leave everything because I think these moments are rare. My God, he's walked down the stairs, he's actually given, he's saying something, even if it's like, oh, did you hear this song on whatever? Those moments were like, oh my god, he's speaking to us. I'm gonna give you my full attention. Um, and so in the busy life with phones, everything else going on around us, to be able to shift all of that to the side and really hear the words and listen to somebody is it so much can come out of that. Um and I do it in my healthcare appointments, you know. I run to clinic, get wolf down my lunch. I have maybe, you know, at some points in clinic, I haven't drank or uh at anything for hours and hours. And I think, right, you're important to me. I need to hear what's going on for you. I'm here for you now. I take away all the other stuff that clutter in my mind and focus on them. Um, but it takes a lot. It's like a it's almost like a meditative mindfulness practice, isn't it? You know, to be focused on it.

Speaker 1 45:42

Yeah, and as you say, I guess in its simplest form, and you touched on it there, is you know, when our children come to talk and want to talk, there must be nothing worse from them when we moan about devices and everything else, and then we're stood there scrolling on the and it covers up a lot because it's real, that's what the world is. You know, if you created a play about it, that's what a lot of homes and a lot of environments look like. I mean, you'll be thrilled to know we've got a few families in uh performance sport who are having 1995 days at the moment, they don't have them very often, but in 1995, you can go on Microsoft Word and make a phone call, and that is it. But the whole family has to do it. And yeah, they can't do it all the time. Um, but the whole family do it because we can't encourage these conversations, we can't have the conversations about device usage, we can't have all these things if then actually ultimately our role modeling of the behavior um doesn't allow for these things to improve. So it's a fascinating world. Um, Orla, that has been um the most incredible uh podcast episode with you. I have never scribbled, I think, and this is your record, as many things down uh from a podcast that we've had in my whole life. Um and and I look forward to attempting uh on a better level some of these things, and I really hope that our listeners um will be able to take something uh away from today's episode. So thank you so much for your time and expertise.

Speaker 47:16

Oh, it's a pleasure. Honestly, I could talk all night about it if you let me. So um, no, I'm glad something was helpful, and I hope something is helpful to people.

Speaker 1 47:24

Yeah, thank you once again, and hopefully we'll we'll get to do something again at some point in the future. Anytime. Thank you for listening. Check it out at parentinsport.co.uk