High Performance and Sports Parenting - 'A conversation with Tom Kitchin'

In this episode Michelin starred chef and sports parent Tom Kitchin joins Gordon MacLelland to discuss high performance and sports parenting. Tom has lived experience as a parent going through the football academy journey and it was great to discuss how his own working life in high performance has influenced his ongoing approach with his four children.

During the conversation they discuss amongst other things:

• The realities and complexities of being a sport parent
• Keeping as balanced as possible in our approach throughout the ups and downs of the journey
• The importance of parental role modelling in shaping key character traits in our young people
• Using the big challenges and moments to help fire drive, desire and determination
• The art of picking the right time to have the best conversations with our children
• Adapting and changing our approach as our children get older
• The similarities between high performance sport and high performance restaurants
• The importance of helping to instil the right attitude and discipline and being honest with our children
• Building confidence in our young people
• The vital role of nutrition in fuelling our young people to help them achieve their best

Tom Kitchin opened his first restaurant The Kitchin, on Edinburgh’s Leith waterfront in June 2006. The Kitchin was awarded an acclaimed Michelin Star just six months after opening - an accolade that has been retained now every year since. The award-winning restaurant has been consistently voted one the UK’s best restaurants since its opening whilst Tom and his wife Michaela were also named ‘UK Restauranteurs of the Year’ in 2019 at the prestigious UK Restaurant Awards.
Tom has become a well-known face on television, having appeared on BBC’s Saturday Kitchen, UKTV Food’s Market Kitchen, in BBC2’s successful series and BBC2’s Remarkable Places to Eat.
Tom has, on many occasions, joined some of the UK’s most renowned chefs on the MasterChef Final
Chef’s Table panel as a judge.

Additional Reading

The problem with making excuses for our sporting children!

Young sportspeople stressed about results – Parents – How best to respond?

Transcript

Speaker 2 0:12

Welcome to season five of the Parent in Sport Podcast. I'm your host, Gordon Maclelland. I'm delighted to be joined today by Michelin Starred Chef and sports parent, Tom Kitchin. Tom, thank you for joining us on the show.

Speaker 0:26

Not at all. Thanks very much for having me.

Speaker 2 0:28

Well, you're certainly a unique guest, Tom. You're certainly the first Michelin-starred chef who's been on the Parent in Sport podcast. But you're certainly not the first um sports parent. It's great to have you on. Could you just tell our listeners uh a little bit about yourself and your background?

Speaker 0:44

Yeah, um, well, yeah, with a name like Kitchener, you know, you could imagine when I was at school, I said I was going to become a chef, you know, it was uh it caused much laughter. Um, but um I guess in a strange way I kind of had the last laugh. Um I uh going back to I started washing the dishes in the local pub when I was like 13, 14 years old to learn to earn some pocket money. And I love my sport. I was playing a lot of sport at that time as a child, but I started working on the weekends and now with my older and wiser ahead, I look back on it and and and what I fell in love with was working in uh hospitality was the the the energy, the the buzz, the excitement, a bit like you get in team sport. And um I was very lucky that I met some great people along the way. My parents were really supportive and um actually left school at 16, no qualifications, went and uh went to was set off to become a chef, and I've done alright, I guess. You know, I've um prided myself on working for what i class is some of the best chefs in the world, started at Glen Eagles Hotel in Ed in Scotland, which is very famous, uh prestigious hotel here in Edinburgh, in Scotland, then went to London working in what we call three-star Michelin's, which is the uh the epitome of um gastronomy. London, Paris, Monte Carlo, Monaco, um, and then set up the restaurant with my wife in 2006. And uh this year we celebrate of um retaining our Michelin star for 18 years. So 18 years of getting better, consistency, all those kinds of things. So it's been uh it's been quite a journey, I yeah, fantastic, Tom.

Speaker 2 2:22

Um many of our listeners will recognize you off of various TV uh programs as well over the years. Um, and I think that that bit you're talking about then will come on to it about you know consistency, performance, um, how we achieved that, and and we'll get into that with our uh young people. Now, you have um you have four sons, um, a couple of teenagers and a couple of uh younger twins, and we're here to talk about sports parenting to to start with, and you've had quite an exciting journey so far with your four. So, you know, how's that been today?

Speaker 2:59

Um, but the sports journey with the children has been um, I mean, it's just been such a joy. It's been such a privilege to to be part of it. Um, my oldest, our our oldest sorry, is uh 16 next week. So he's at a different stage now in his sporting career to our young twins who are 10 and uh you know, just having the absolute time of their lives, you know, doing their sport, and you know, that's all that matters. Um it's been an incredible journey. It's been like I'm sure uh you hear a lot the the word roller coaster, emotional roller coaster, you know, highs and lows. We've been through it all, you know. Uh it's yeah, it's wow. But I wouldn't I wouldn't swap it for anything else in the world. It's brought so much joy to to our lives and uh but challenges as well, absolutely challenges as well.

Speaker 2 3:47

And presumably, Tom, um, a bit like our family, you work and you watch sport with your children, and that's about it for the week.

Speaker 3:55

That is all I do just now. Literally, cook, restaurant, drive to sports, watch sports, come on, you know, it's absolute madness. And um, yeah, you can imagine uh sometimes it's really challenging. What you know, it's just it's it's non-stop 24-7.

Speaker 2 4:12

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, many will be describing us both as very two-dimensional, but I'd like to challenge people to find the hours in the week to do to do anything else.

Speaker 4:22

And you know, when your wife's in your ear, we haven't had any family time, you're like, um, yeah, I I get that, but like, what do you want to do? Because, like, unless you're actually in the mix of it, it's very hard for people to understand like what you are doing with uh your children and the sport and the commitment that you have to give, and then you've got to, you know, be a dad, be a husband, and run businesses as well. It's uh it's quite something. But we're not we're not crying, we're not crying, I'm not crying about it, it's absolutely phenomenal.

Speaker 2 4:49

No, absolutely not. I'm I'm certainly not crying about it either. Some there's some brilliant moments in that. It is interesting when you you're out talking to parents. We obviously manage to talk to thousands across sports, but they do struggle with with those challenges, the balancing of of time, of logistics, of work, of getting the kids there. The the I mean you're lucky your four are all still uh are all involved in sport, but then you've got some families where there's maybe a high performer and the other one doesn't do any sports, so there's guilt about there's guilt about going off. So you've got you've got all of these things going on. And I would say to sports parents, look, you know, let's just keep looking ahead. Because I think if we look back on it and thought, what on earth we were were were we doing in terms of this the sheer volume of time. And as you say, people don't people who aren't involved don't don't get it, but we know how much value it adds, don't we?

Speaker 5:45

Massive value, it brings so much to um to our lives as a family. And I I I totally get that. I I do feel that we're fortunate in our family that everyone is so involved in sport. You know, if someone if one of the children wasn't, which would be absolutely fine as well, um, that would bring a different challenge. So I I can totally understand that some families really struggle with those kinds of things, but we're lucky in a situation, even my wife, she's totally bought into absolutely you know, the commitment that we have to give. And there's a lot of commitment, you know, whether it's bedtime, eating, preparation, big matches, um, logistics, um, you know, trying to organize transport because you can't actually be there or there and this and that, asking people for help, you know, but in a crazy way, you always get there. You always get there.

Speaker 2 6:35

But you just have to be you always find a way, don't you, Tom? You always find a way. You always find a way. Yeah, that's a big saying in our house, and it's the most hated saying from my two children. Whenever there's just find a find a solution, whatever it may be.

Speaker 6:51

Find a solution, find a way. And I think as you get as you get older, you start to understand that. It's exactly the same in business as well. You know, you you'll find a way, you know. Someone wants to leave this. When I was young, I used to get really what you mean you want to leave? I say, okay, fine, but where are you going to go? What you're going to do, you know, that kind of thing. So yeah, but you find a way.

Speaker 2 7:08

I think there's a there's definitely an experience element there that the the older ones listening to this call will certainly be able to um relate to. Um, what have been the best bits for you thinking about over the years? Obviously, it's still going on. What do you think you've enjoyed the most about about being a sports parent?

Speaker 7:25

Uh what have I enjoyed the most about being a sports parent? I think it has to come down to the memories. You know, there's been so many incredible memories, whether it's you know, going to Poland on a football tour in the under-10s cup, you know, still my oldest still talks about that trip to Poznaan as one of the highlights of his football career. Never mind signing for a pro youth academy or whatever, just being at your boys' club, you know, going on tour, getting the Ryanair flight, you know, all staying in a hotel together. Unbelievable memories, you know. Um, you know, the the trips, the the highs, you know, when it goes well, those moments are obviously really great. But then we all know about the flip side to that when it's it's not going so well, or you know, all those different things growing, all these different things. But the memories for me are have been something that I'll cherish forever.

unknown 8:16

Yeah.

Speaker 2 8:17

Yeah, I'm just thinking back there to tours, and it it reminds me of a a little story that I've maybe told on this podcast a few times about you know working with our young people and how they see the world very differently to us. And one of my you know, son's highlights, and he signed for a category one Premier League Academy in the in the UK at the age of nine, and he got to go to Germany for the weekend. And I'll never forget being really excited. This is probably bad sports parenting, because I sat at home thinking this was the Champions League of football, and I was desperate to know, you know, how good were Bayern Munich's under 11s and how good were Bushier Dortmund, and parents weren't allowed to go on this trip. So I spent all weekend thinking about it. My son got home and I thought, right, I'm not going to ask him about the football, even though that's what I wanted to know. I thought I'll ask him a general question. And I said he got back in the car on the Monday and I said, Archie, you know, what was the best bit of the weekend? You know, what was good? He said, Dad, the hotel was beautiful. It was a Nova tell. I think we should stay in one of those when we go on holiday. I'm like, all right, thanks, Archie. I appreciate that. And I thought, well, he's bound to tell me about the football if I ask him something else. So I tried again. I said, okay, well, what else was good? And he said, Dad, the sausages were excellent. So I had to do this sports parenting thing, you know, paella from Spain, the Germans famous for the sausages, fried rice, thing and put I did the whole works and I thought, I'm bound to get it question three. And I said, okay, and what else is good? What else did you learn? He said, Dad, the hair gel I use is absolute muck. And I said, What do you mean? He said, My roommate's mum, she's a hairdresser, he's got far better stuff than the stuff I'm using. Well, 20 minutes into this car journey, I'm like, oh, for God's sake, will you just tell me about the damn football? And he said, Oh no, I was captain on Saturday and scored against Hanover. And and and and and I mean, not everybody's gonna be the same as that, but when you're talking about memories, the things that kids remember, it's actually the bits of the journey, isn't it? We sometimes get a bit hooked on a specific outcome, but for them, there's lots of the other stuff, being with their mates, taking part in things, different experiences.

Speaker 10:33

Absolutely, yeah. Those uh you maybe had those conversations that it's replica conversations we've had in our family of like, you know, you're trying to get that information, you know, how did you play, what did you do? And it's like, oh, by the way, you should have tasted this at the breakfast, by the way, it was unbelievable, you know. And that's like what? Yeah, so yeah, no, I can totally relate to that, yeah.

Speaker 2 10:53

Um, now obviously we've we've took the there are many highlights of being involved in sport, but there are certainly challenges as well. If you can think back over the years, you've obviously got children at different levels, some obviously involved in a a pro-youth environment, you've obviously had to navigate ups and downs, you've had to deal with car journeys home, you've had to deal with different difficult moments and those bits. Well, what do you think have been the biggest challenges? Because when nobody tells us how to parent, does he? You know, we're we're sort of left to find our own way and do our best.

Speaker 11:28

Yeah, I mean, the challenge is, I mean, yeah, I think you mentioned them there, you know, is it's like you know, it's the highs and lows, you know, it just changes from week to week. Just when you like you talk about consistency, and you know, the the coaches will talk about consistency and this kind of thing, but you know, one week you can be you can your son is absolutely unplayable, next week it's like it's like they've never played football before, but there's so much going on. I think um I think I I think in our oldest one is um the growing of you know, like when a child when when a teenager really starts to grow, you know, and they grow like I'll never forget with Casper, like how much he took a stretch so quickly, and just the whole body, the head, the feet not connecting, you know, everything just like emotions, um, and then that affects your form. Um, and then you know, it's just so many different things. And then now, especially uh, you know, with exams and studying and trying to balance all the commitment to the training and then you know, the studying and all that kind of stuff as well. It's uh those are real highs and lows, but you know, you miss a sitter, and then you just uh I've always tried just to say, like, like when you're watching match a day, look at the shot, you just miss like it happens to everyone. That's Premier League footballers, they miss open goals as well. It's not just that you know, boys' club as well, it's about the reaction, it's about the uh, you know, how can you react to the different situations? So it'll be no different to any other parents, it's just being there to support and uh the highs and lows, and just trying to keep a happy medium, not and as a parent, try not get too high and too low with them, you know.

Speaker 2 13:09

Yeah, and I and I think that's the the good vice, uh good advice that not trying to get too high and too low and keeping it balanced. And you know, you get people who band around, you know, kids have got, and parents got to be able to embrace failure. I I don't like that phrase because I certainly don't want to embrace failure, but I think we've got to normalize disappoint the the you know the ups and downs is part parcel of of what we've got to go through. And I think for us, and it this will be interesting, I don't know how you are, but I think our role modeling as parents becomes really important there. I think our ability to stay quite level as opposed to overreacting underreacting.

Speaker 13:49

Absolutely, absolutely. I think the the people say that the it's all down to the kid, and that I totally disagree with that. I think the the the role modeling that the parents have is so vitally important. These these kids are not going through the same experience that we went through, you know, like all those years ago, you know, like, oh, you want to practice, just go to the park and kick it a hundred times on your left foot. You know, those it yes, of course, there's a place for that, but time has changed so much. And the role of the parent now, I feel, is vitally, vitally important. Who knows what's right and wrong, uh, 100%. But obviously, you look at you know the different teams that you play, the way that parents act, and the you know, we all know about the car journey, those kinds of things. You see it all the time, and I'm by no means perfect, but it's uh it's just trying to keep that happy medium level, not too high, not too low. And uh that's a vital, vital role in parenting, yeah.

Speaker 2 14:46

Yeah, and it and it's become a huge part of our work, you know. We're speaking all around the world in all kinds of environments, trying to support parents, and as you say, you know, I I make them a mess of it every single week and I live and breathe this, but I think bringing out the conversations, making people more self-aware, you know, we we are huge role models, particularly when our kids are at at the younger ages, that in many ways we're shaping how they view the world. You know, our reaction to disappointment uh is very much shaping theirs. And, you know, we see a lot how easy it is um for parents inadvertently without realizing that if our children are struggling with the sport, if they're upset, it's so easy to blame somebody else, it's so easy to make an excuse, it's so easy to overdo the the affection side of things when things have gone wrong. And actually, this is just a normal part of being involved in sport. And you know, if we're giving our kids excuses, it it won't be long before they always have an excuse for why something hasn't happened as well.

Speaker 15:55

Absolutely, absolutely. And um, it's it's uh the sport hopefully is going to give them that guidance and that resilience and that way to manage the ups and downs of everyday life as they get older, you know, which is vitally important, you know, because a lot of these kids which are going through um the sporting highs and lows are completely at different levels to other children in the sense of dealing with their emotions and the and resilience. For me, the resilience is a massive thing, massive thing, you know, because a lot of these kids are wrapped in cotton wool now and you know, and and never have to fight and you know, do and you know, resilience is a big, big part of life, yeah.

Speaker 2 16:34

Yeah, it it is, Tom, and and you know, we obviously see a lot of young people, and there's an awful lot of kids with huge amounts of ability. Um, there's no doubting that. But it's definitely with the challenges of modern-day parenting society today technology, there's quite a lot of kids who are missing some of those key building blocks now. So when everybody gets to a level, you know, the commitment, the resilience, the determination, the patience, the humility, the adaptability, the ability to talk. And we're desperately, and and uh, you know, I was saying to you off air that you know, the sessions we do with the kids as well, we're desperately trying to get them to understand the importance of those traits and how they can relate to it in their world because we need those. That's what holds us together, and it'll have certainly held you together in your profession.

Speaker 17:27

No, massively, and like you know, I uh my children won't mind me saying this, and and I say exactly the same about me as a chef. You know, we I was never gifted this incredible talent to be a Michelin star chef. It's through pure drive and determination and repetition and you know, determination to to get to where I want to get. And you know, with with the kids as well, you know, like with parents, you you see these wonder kids at like nine, ten years old. And you know, like these parents who are maybe new to it or something, and and I and I I was absolutely the same. You're looking at that kid nine, ten years old, and you're thinking, Wow, he's got a chance, he's got a chance, but the journey is so long, so many twists and tails in that journey, you know, they do that in uh you know the the story of success, isn't it? It's not a straight arrow, it's like it's like you know, so many different roundabouts, and you absolutely see that because often if you're that that young star player and you've never until you hit like everything 10, 11, 12, you're still there, then suddenly 13, 14, 15, everyone starts to grow differently, or or whatever, and you're not that star V player again, you and you've never had to fight resilience and and fight for everything before. You see people fall out of love with sport in the game as well. So the role of the parent is uh is really important there, I think. And yeah, yeah. I mean the screen. You'll know but you'll know more about it than me, but you know what I'm talking about there.

Speaker 2 18:57

Oh, absolutely, because there's so much to unpick there, you know, the early success, you know, we're we're starting to see around a lot of talent developments, you know, first in, first out. I think there's definite challenges in trying to select, you know, pre-puberty. You know, we're obviously making educated guesses as practitioners, people who've coached our sports, got experience, what we're wanting to see, but then also recognising that actually that everybody's journey is unique. And you think of some of those high-performing young kids, get all the praise, get all the cue dots, it comes easily to them. Everybody sort of practice is lyrical. And as you say, then seen it in a lot of sports, two, three years later, they're being released from programs. Everybody's expectations have gone through the roof, everybody's sort of thing, and they're struggling to manage it. And actually, we need to be better to say this is amazing now, but how can we try and ensure that that nine-year-old is still potentially the best 14-year-old because we're giving them a chance of being that as opposed to maybe parenting them or coaching them in a in a different way.

Speaker 20:07

Absolutely, yeah, that's fascinating. Yeah, so you know, even like you know, my you know, sometimes with my boys, you know, when they get they don't make the starting 11 or they get they get taken off after 45 minutes of a match or something like that, those are really big moments. Those are really big moments because those are the moments that like hopefully fire the engine, you know, to say, like, instead of feeling sorry for yourself here, pal, this is you know, this is like how do you channel this and you know get back in that first team, you know, or you know, instead of you know, like being upset, just like take it on the chin and support Johnny when he scores the winner if you're the substitute, being in that, you know, having that kind of team mentality, but at the same time having that, you know, personal desire to get back in the team, you know, and and hopefully fuel it in the right way. Yeah.

Speaker 2 20:57

Yeah, when do you um just out of interest, interesting talks lots? When when do you have that dialogue with your kids? Is it something that they instantly want to have, car journey home, or is it something that comes later in the week?

Speaker 21:10

Or yeah, it it's uh it's a bit like your story of going away to Munich. I mean, you you're obviously the car journeys, we all we all know about how important the car journey is, but from my experience that you don't get they will speak if they want to speak. Do you know what I mean? Like if you try and force it, uh there's absolutely all you get is a grunt and a no, yes, whatever. Okay, pal, no problem. It takes a little bit, like they go home, they have the shower, they eat something, you know, they have their sleep or something, you know, you play their Xbox, and then oh dad, by the way, you know, like so there's little drips and drabs. And you know, from my experiences, you know, you're so desperate to get that information. What did the coach say? What this and that, but they'll tell you when they want to tell you. And it sometimes it takes a week and it comes at the most random time. You know, it comes at the most random times. But when you just get that little nugget, you're like, okay, got you. This, that, you know. So it's yeah, it's through experience. And uh, I say that now with having a bit of experience. I mean, looking back, you know, I would have been that parent, like, oh, come on, what did the coach say? How was it? Well, how do you think you played? You know, like, you know, and it just doesn't work. It doesn't work.

Speaker 2 22:25

No. No, and you know what? It's it's it's it's quite nice. This I'm sure there'll be lots of people listening to this show who'll be like, Oh, Tom, thanks for saying that. Because I do sometimes think we go through these things on our own, and our ability to share like you have, yeah, of course we have. We were all overly involved and and wanted to ask questions and get information and give feedback. But actually, what when your kids get to becoming teenagers, it probably couldn't be any any worse approach. You need to completely almost unravel that.

Speaker 22:59

That's it, that's a complete what you know. When they they they come into that classic teenage mode, it's a completely different ball game. You know, our youngest is still, you know, uh, like some what one coach once said to me, Listen, you will never enjoy your football. But for your listeners, football's uh the sport that my boys play. You will never enjoy your football as much as when you're playing seven aside at boys' club. Do you know what I mean? Because that is the epitome of fun, friends. It's like a basketball match, a seven aside football match, it's the end-to-end goals, this, that. You wake up in the morning, you're so excited, you know, like it's absolutely priceless. Um so yeah, the the differences in the parenting from the different age levels is quite something. Yeah, it's quite something. And then, but all as enjoyable as each other, just very, very different.

Speaker 2 23:51

Yeah, and it's massively tough. We had a motivational interviewing expert on the podcast a couple of months ago, which was really interesting about talking to teenagers, you know, because there are times we want to have difficult conversations with them. Um but actually we maybe force the time that we're gonna have that. And actually, her advice was no, you say to your kids, we are gonna have this chat at some point, just to let you know it it will happen. Have it when you're ready. And they do. The kids tend to, as you say, they they then come back and know that that conversation's gonna happen. But she was also brilliant in getting us to focus on some of the strengths of our kids and the things they do well. I think it's very easy with our sports parenting to look at things that we need our kids to improve or weaknesses or things they haven't done. And actually, that's got to be really well balanced with actually we should also be picking out the things they do really, really well, which naturally doesn't come to some people. Certainly didn't come naturally to me.

Speaker 24:56

No, absolutely. I think you've you've you've hit it spot. It's uh it's so very different. But I I love that what you said there, that you know, like with a teenager, you're gonna say, Listen, we're gonna have a conversation about this, but I want you to start thinking about it because it is, it's like dropping it in. You're dropping in the idea that we are going to have a conversation about this, we need to talk about it, but we'll do it when the time's right because they will start to think about it, and you will hopefully get a better result for everyone.

Speaker 2 25:24

Yeah, uh yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's fascinating. I would get some great guests um on here. Now, this is the big question for me because I've been to your restaurant many years ago. For me, Michelin-starred cookery is the epitome of high performance. I was very fortunate last year to have been bought a gift um from somebody I'd coached many years ago who sent me to a three Michelin-starred restaurant the day after it had been awarded it. And I sat in the dining room, I sat in the dining room and I just thought, go, I'm involved in sport, everybody bangs on about high performance. I should write about this experience because watching them move around the dining room, watching the attention to detail, watching the understanding of everybody's role within that environment, everybody bringing it together, and as well as the food and drink being unbelievably brilliant, which of course it was, that was a sheer joy of watching high performance in action. Now, you work in that sector, you work in high performance, and you are high performance. Do you think that that has maybe had some positive negative implications on how you've parented your kids in so much that you know don't need to be high performance 10-year-olds, but you know there's some messages that you still need to get across about life and the world?

Speaker 26:49

Yeah, I I yeah, there's there's I'm not going to sit here and say that it's not uh influenced the way I am as a parent, you know, the way that um myself and my wife as well is exactly the same. She's she's exactly the same high performance as myself and and everyone in my business. That's why we are. And I I've talked about this like numerous times, and I've got so many. I'm lucky that I've got um people who have reached incredible levels in the sporting world. And when you actually talk about that, it's very similar. It's very, very similar. The two worlds when you bring together, because there you are, you're sitting in that three-star Michelin, and you're looking at the incredible service, the decor, the food, and you're like, wow, look at this. A bit like when I look at like uh someone reaching the extreme levels of high performance sport, but what has gone on behind there, behind the years and years of dedication and you know, you know, you know, getting up, you know, every day going to work, trying to be better, the sacrifice that you know I've made as a human and as a chef, and and these sporting stars have made it as well. So there's no getting away from the fact that that rubs onto you when you you look at your your children and you you um you want them to do well. Um yeah, I'm sure there's lots of things that maybe I pushed too far, absolutely. I'd like to think I'm getting better at it now, but I'm also reaching a different stage with the the older ones getting older, it's a whole new experience for me as well. So the way that I parent my younger ones now is different to the way that I parented the um the older ones, if you know what I mean. Uh very much with the younger one, it's still about enjoyment and this and that. But you know, if they want to do you know, one-to-one sessions or this and that, you know, absolutely, that's great. You know, I'll we we will embrace that as a family, but um just trying to get that mentality that be the best that you possibly can at whatever you do, and hopefully, we all know how hard it is to become something in sport, but hopefully you take that on to life as well, you know, because if you take that mentality on, I always say to young people, I don't care where you come from, what your qualifications are, it's all about attitude, desire, can do attitude, being early, you know, working hard, not looking at your watch to go home, being interested, glint in the eye, you know, and you will go far in life.

Speaker 2 29:19

Yeah, absolutely. And you know what? I I think I and and it's not feeling sorry for this generation of kids, but we have got a challenge where the their whole world is this instant gratification thing. Because we also know that, yeah, as you say, to be good at anything takes time, dedication, commitment, patience, absolutely everything that goes with it. And that's not going to change. People can dress it up and say society's changing, but you're not going to become an Olympian by doing nothing. You're not going to become a Michelin-starred chef by not putting in the whole thing.

Speaker 29:54

I think it's really, I think it's really important as well that we don't live in like, you know, I come from a very old school background of chefing, you know, like where it was like the SES, it was tough. If you didn't like it, there's the door F off. Do you know what I mean? Like it was like that. You know, we worked extremely long hours, we got bollocked, it was like the army, you know. It made me a very strong individual, you know, like to, you know, the thickest skin, you know, like let's go. Obviously, this is a different generation that we work in now, but there needs to be this discipline as well. There needs to be people, you need to be able to tell people this is right, that's wrong. And with the kids, I'm pretty I'm pretty honest with it. You know, like they say, Dad, what do you think? I say, sorry, pal, but I don't think you were at the races today. I thought that was, you know, like, you know, there has to be a wee bit of like that. I don't think it was good today. I don't think that was the best performance, but you know that yourself. You know that yourself, you know. I don't think you were giving 110%, you were up a bit late last night. I don't, you know, like all these kind of things. I I still give that. I still give that. And um, I think that's important because you know, uh yeah, everyone's individual, you have to treat everyone individually, but that little kick up the backside sometimes now and then is still very much needed in my eyes.

Speaker 2 31:08

Oh, of course it is, and uh I I think we you know you you read all of these things, and people are trying to tell how everybody should think and everybody should feel, and this would be the the perfect utopia. I'm sorry that that that doesn't exist for it doesn't exist for millions of people, and actually what we're talking about are uh real life experiences that we know still apply. And I I say to parents, you know, I think we've got to be careful because I think there's some things that our parents did that is better than some of what our generation of parents are doing, and and certainly that would be one of them. You know, I had a parent ask me recently, said, Gordon, you know, my child had a bad game, you know, would you tell them? And it's like, well, yeah, probably at some point. Absolutely. You know, that there's got to be there's got to be some honesty. We can't just we can't just sort of, as my daughter would say, because she's quite brutal and she's quite a good sports person, but she says it can't always be cupcakes and rainbows, and she's only 12. And she absolutely I agree with that.

Speaker 32:13

Oh, she's she's she's doing great then, and I think that's really important. And you know, I sometimes I see you see it like kids who are just in a bubble that they've never like been actually told off, you know, like in a you know, they maybe go to a nice school and they're just in that little comfort zone of that very nice school. There's a big bad world out there, you know what I mean? And you know, I loved it like the other day. My my little twins went to play a team up up in uh in Dundee, and uh they I was like, lads, how do it go? Like, oh dad, they said to me, You're you're just a wee effing posh Edinburgh something. And I was like, Yes, I love that because that is still out there, that grit, you know, because that kid who's from wherever, he's got that extra little yard, that little extra bit of determination that a lot of kids don't have because they're wrapped in cotton wool all the time and they're told how bloody good they are, and this and that and that. But that kid who's got that grit and determination, I love that, and that's what you're trying to get in is that desire, that kind of like extra edge to always be a winner.

Speaker 2 33:17

Yeah, and I and I and I've been really, you know, not not necessarily good with my kids, but I've got mine out into the real world from the young ages. There was no way they were going to be wrapped in a lovely uh ball of privilege. It was like, no, you get out, yeah, you get out there and scrap, and definitely one of the best things we've ever done. Because I think also what that also does is it means then that they become really well equipped to also get on with everybody, to understand the world in a much bigger place.

Speaker 33:46

As you say, you're out you're out of that bubble, aren't you? Uh but something my my wife and I pride ourselves on, and we're trying to create and children who can go into any walk of life and you know be at ease and handle themselves. For me, that is a beautiful gift to give someone. You know, no one is better than anyone else. First thing we do in the morning, you know, it's the pot washers or it's uh the the high spender in the restaurant. You know, I want the children to be able to associate with everyone, and that is vitally, vitally important. And that a lot of these principles come from sport and team sport and all these different things and people coming together. I love that, it's brilliant.

Speaker 2 34:26

Yeah, and and you know, parents will say to me, Gordon, how do you know it's all been worth it? And actually, one of the big bits of work we do with parents is actually looking through, I guess, their sporting week with their kids through the lens of character development, so all the stuff that we're actually talking about. Because when they say, How do you know it's all been worth it, the only answer I'm really comfortable giving is that if they view sport, which still remains today one of the safest vehicles to equip their children with a wide range of character and life skills that will allow them to thrive in whatever walk of life they go into, it's absolutely worth it because we've got no guarantees in sport. It's the only thing I'm absolutely telling you.

Speaker 35:08

Yeah, any parent who thinks that their children are get are guaranteed to become as a successful elite sports people are living in an absolute fantasy world. It's the it's absolutely minor, but but any parent who embraces this incredible journey of of um children's sport and the journey of that uh the with the uh the end result being a really really good rounded individual who can walk into any like part of life and that you know will knows about resilience, and is that that's what we're looking for.

Speaker 2 35:43

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, and that's what makes it a joy, I think. Um now we we've touched on this a little bit as time's gone on. Um, you've talked about a little bit as your approach changed, do you you know, like like you said, did you learn? Did you think, oh my goodness, I'm making a real mess of this? And obviously, you mentioned that the 10-year-old twins are obviously benefiting from that experience. Yeah.

Speaker 36:07

Well, yeah, I absolutely it's completely changed. I mean, you you'll know yourself, like you know, you you know when you're um well, take football, for example, we're talking about, you know, you you you're at that stage and you join a football club, a boys' club, and everyone's mixed together, all abilities, and then suddenly they have to be graded into ability teams, okay, which is obviously a big thing for parents. And uh when when it was our first child, he managed to get into uh the top team, and he was in the top team, and then uh played for maybe six months, a year or something, and then the coach came to me and he says, Listen, Tom, um, I think Casper needs to drop down a level. I was like, What? You know, you sort of like what do you mean he's like it has to drop? No, I think he needs to drop down, and this guy was very experienced, and and I respected him a lot. I was like, okay, I was like, you need to he need to drop down a level, he needs to get his confidence up, he needs to, you know, just embrace that. And um, we went, we went with it, and it was absolutely the best thing that could have happened with looking back in hindsight. Now he went down a level, he managed to get back up a level, he then became uh the captain of the team, and then he managed to get to uh you know pro youth football. And then the whole roller coaster started again. He started well, then he got dropped, and then he went up, and you know, and it's just like totally, and now with the younger ones, I've had different moments where I've seen it with other parents, you know, like parents have to understand that it is a complete and utter roller coaster journey for these young people. The most important thing is playing at the right level and your child enjoying it, and if the child is enjoying it at the right level, then everything is fine. The parents need to get over that, they need to get over that. That we johnny has to be at the right level because and at 10 years old, it doesn't matter what level they're at, because it'll be a comp, you know. Yeah, we all know that the Wee Johnny at that 10-year-old could be the one that actually makes it a 16, 17, 18, whatever.

Speaker 2 38:04

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The best 10-year-old doesn't make the best 14-year-old, and that as you say, everything looks very different. I think that confidence one is an interesting one, it's cropped up recently, heard it a lot. You want your kids to feel confident about what they're doing. We made a big switch with our son, he he left academy football, he's then spent years playing up a year group. Now, a year in your teenage years up is a real challenge. Drop back to his own age group, suddenly I've got the boy. Can I go training again? Suddenly trying things on the field, suddenly realizes that back in his own cohort, what a difference, what a difference in the space of on a personal level and on an ability level. But that could have so easily been seen as a negative. And as you say, you know, you want your kids.

Speaker 38:53

Yeah, but that that that playing upper that playing upper level is a big thing. You hear the kids talking about it all the time, and that was another thing which I was guilty of as a parent. I was like, why is he not playing up? If if so-and-so is playing up, why is he not playing up? It doesn't matter, it does not matter. These are just little things, and if you get asked to play up, embrace it, you'll probably get about 10 minutes, it's an experience, and you go back. Everything is an experience, isn't it? It's like getting sent off for the first time, it's like getting injured, how to deal with an injury, you know, a serious injury for the first time. Uh, new coaches coming in and not liking you or whatever. Everything is part of the journey. Even like I've seen my son go to Ross County away on the coach and not get on. Do you know what I mean? And then have to come all the way. How was it? Uh well, I went to Ross County and I didn't actually get on. I was like, do you know? It's like that is part of the experience, isn't it? You know, because it it is it's all it's all part of the journey.

Speaker 2 39:49

Yeah, absolutely. A journey to Ross County, Tom. What a what a joy, what a joy for them on a on the day.

Speaker 39:55

I had not to get it. At least they were on a bus that day.

Speaker 2 39:59

Yeah, absolutely. Uh now, just conscious of time, Tom, being an amazing episode. I think certainly one of the most real, real life versions of the Parent in Sport podcast. Um, if there's anything that you've learned, anything that you've picked up, anything, one bit of advice that you would you would give to sports parents setting out, what do you think it would you like?

Speaker 40:19

I'm not here to give advice to sports parents, you know, but I I would I would just say listen, enjoy the journey. It's going to go really fast. It's highs, it's lows. We talked about that. But something we haven't talked about, which is something I'm really like, really into now, is this like um, and even though it's my world, I wasn't fully embraced into the nutritional side of it of as a parent, how important that is. You know, the the nutritional side of these kids eating properly and learning how to to eat is something, another amazing gift that you're giving these children to go into adult life as well. You know, preparing for the matches, whether it's carbs or whether it's you know, um, you talk about the rainbow colors on your plate, um, you know, finishing a big strong session depending on the age, getting that protein into your system, you know, to recover, sleep, all these things. I mean, that's something that I've certainly got better on, and I'd like and we fully embrace now as a family as well, and even me as a person as well. I love to do exercise, I love to do gym. I never used to like finish the gym and just like have some protein or something like that, or think about you know, the chicken or the the fish diet and that. And I think that is another thing which is as parents, we all need to get sharper on. We because these kids need to be educated and pushed. The the the the the ready meals, the the the cans of juice, the chocolate, the ice cream, it's crap. You you know, if you're serious about your sport, you have to eat properly and live and breathe it. And that's where I'm sorry, but parents have to really push on because you know, oh well done, we Johnny, you scored three for you scored three today. Let's go and celebrate and get a McDonald's. What the fuck? Do you know what I mean? Like it's like, what what are you what planet are you on here? Like this has to stop if you're serious about it.

Speaker 2 42:11

Yeah, I I I mean, look, I couldn't agree more. And uh, maybe that's a project for us, Tom in amongst everything, you know, uh a sports performance parenting nutrition, but because actually the reality of that, all the stuff you're saying is, but then there's also the context that you'll know. How do we get really good food in when we've only got 10 minutes to make it and we're running around like idiots, yeah, and they're going to be able to we're all facing the same problems. Yeah, pat lunches, what do they look like?

Speaker 42:38

What do they look like? And as a as a parent, you're not just thinking about the logistics, you're not just thinking about is the kit washed, have they got their shin guards, have they got this, have that that? The food thing, because if you don't fuel these young athletes properly, then you you're you you if you're not taking your responsibility as a parent and fueling them properly and teaching them how to fuel themselves before and after and the week before, and you're like looking at them and criticizing them, like why why why could you not play the full 90 minutes today, Johnny? Well, if they're not fueled properly, they've got no chance, absolutely no chance.

Speaker 2 43:13

No, it it's it's it's certainly a challenge, and and some of the environments we've been in, we've been actually getting the parents in with the kids and actually doing some cooking as well. Because what we've also got to keep in mind, yeah, not everyone can not everyone can cook, and not everyone has the skills to do that.

Speaker 43:30

And I I to I totally understand that. Not everyone has the same budgets, not everyone has the the facilities, not it's it's it's so important, but the kids will embrace it. I really do believe that they will embrace it if the parents embrace it, and that's where the parents really need to push on. And and the clubs and the schools, even like you know, some of these big private schools, sometimes you think, What did you get afterwards? You're like, What? Yeah, do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, it's it's a joke.

Speaker 2 43:57

It's another sausage roll and a bag of crisps and a carton of it.

Speaker 44:02

Well done. There's some haribles and a packet of crisps, you know, like those days are gone. Those days are gone. We need to we need to all get smarter with that, I believe.

Speaker 2 44:10

Yeah, absolutely. Well, we started with food, we've finished with food, but in the middle, we've talked about lots of other things. Tom, uh, thank you for joining us on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure, and uh hopefully we'll get you to talk about something uh again in the future.

Speaker 44:25

All right, well, thank you very much for having me and uh best of luck to everyone.

Speaker 2 44:30

Thank you for listening. Check us now to editin'sport.co.uk.