Supporting a healthy identity in our sporting children - 'A conversation with Rebecca Levett'

In this episode Sport and Performance Psychologist in Elite Sport Rebecca Levett joins Gordon MacLelland to discuss supporting a healthy identity in our sporting children.

We all want our children to have the opportunity to explore various identities and learn that their sense of worth can come from different areas and that many skills and strengths are valued not just those associated with ‘achieving success’.

During the conversation they discuss amongst other things:

• Identity and how we define ourselves
• How our children's identity may influence their behaviour
• Not closing things down too early and allowing our children to experience lots of different things in their life
• Being conscious of what we praise and value as parents
• Helping our children have a 100% focus on their sport at the right time, but not the whole time
• Supporting the development of skills in our children that can then transfer into multiple domains
• The importance of parental role modelling particularly our interactions as parents around learning and disappointment
• Making sure our children know we 'love them' regardless of what they achieve
• How their social groups can influence their identity
• Does having an “on pitch” identity or persona mean being a different person?

Rebecca is a Sport and Performance Psychologist with a wealth of experience in elite sport. She runs a consultancy called Sporting Success and is currently working with GB hockey with the Women’s team, Harlequins Women’s rugby and Sussex Men’s Cricket. Prior to these roles Rebecca spent 4 years at the English Football Association as a Senior Psychologist: 3 years with the Men’s U21s team and 12 months with the Senior Women’s team, the Lionesses. 

In addition Rebecca has previously worked with the Women’s first Team at Manchester City, spent 6 years with Archery GB with the Paralympic Squad and 9 years with Surrey Country Cricket Club alongside consultancy work for the England and Wales Cricket Board.

Rebecca has a strong belief that sustainable high performance is underpinned by high levels of wellbeing and also that we are all performers in our own right whether on the pitch, in the boardroom or even at home! Rebecca’s experience enables her to blend scientific knowledge with realities of what it is like ‘pitch side’ to ensure solutions are practical and not just jargon! 

Rebecca is registered as a Practitioner Psychologist with the Health and Care Professions Council and is a Chartered Psychologist with the British Psychological Society.

Additional Reading

Festive Season Special – Supporting Positive Body Image in our Young Athletes

Progress not perfection?

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:12

Welcome to season five of the Parents in Sport Podcast. I'm your host, Gordon Maclelland. I'm delighted to be joined today by sports psychologist and sports parent Rebecca Levett. Rebecca, thank you for joining us on the show.

Speaker 0:25

You're very welcome. Looking forward to it.

Speaker 1 0:28

Really important topic we're going to be talking about today, and that's supporting a healthy identity in our young people. But before we get started with that, Rebecca, can you just give our listeners a little bit about your background and experiences in sport?

Speaker 0:43

Yeah, sure. So as you said, I'm a sports psychologist. I'm currently working with GB women's hockey team, Harlequins women's rugby, and then Sussex men's uh cricket um team. So that's kind of where my current kind of time goes. Um, but also previously worked within football, um, done some work within athletics, particularly a lot of junior um athletics work, work within Paralympic archery, work within women's uh women's football, men's football, um, yeah, and various other sports and for young people along along the way, but golf work and yeah, a range of different stuff from men's, women's, boys, girls, young as nine, all the way up to seniors.

Speaker 1 1:24

So there's very little that Rebecca hasn't done, which is why it's so great to have her on the uh have her on the podcast. But I know I do know that that today's topic is is really close to your your heart. And I guess if it were if you went on mastermind, this would be your um specialist topic if if we did that, if we were talking sports stuff. So um tell us all about identity, um, what it means to you and what why it became such a a big area of interest for you.

Speaker 1:54

Yeah, well what identity really is, in very simple terms, is how we how we define ourselves. Um, and that's made up of a number of things. We hold a number of different roles. You talked about being um, you know, a sports parent, you might be a coach, you might be a teacher in your job, you know, you might be an athlete. We all have kind of very different, diff various different roles in terms of how we define ourselves. And we kind of have um, you know, for each of those roles, we have expectations and we have meanings that we place on those, and how we feel we then match up to that and how we do in each of those areas then sort of forms the basis of our self-esteem, um, particularly as we get older. Um, and also different different identities will hold different meaning for us. So, you know, for me, I identify myself as a psychologist and that's really important to me. So therefore it's important that I do well at my job and I give the best possible service I can, um, you know, and I exercise as a casual exerciser, but that's a hobby. So I don't define myself as an athlete or an exercise, that's just something I do. So I wouldn't say I, you know, I'm an athlete or anything because that's not identity for me. But some people say take running, for example, some people that run recreationally, that might become that might be a really important part of their identity. So they may well define themselves as being a runner and that does form part of their identity, and making sure they get out and they do that and they, you know, consistently improve on their times or progress with that and take part in different races, that might form an important part of their identity if that's something that's particularly significant for them. So essentially it's yeah, how we define ourselves, how we, how we see ourselves. Um, and therefore that has implications, as I'm sure we'll get into for various different things in terms of our sense of self-esteem, our sense of self-worth and our general well-being. Um, the reason I suppose I got interested in it was actually when I did my master's. So for my master's dissertation, I was looking at um, I did it in cricket and I did it two case studies and I interviewed two professional players that had had to retire out of the game as a result of injury, so forced into retirement. And as we know with athletes, you know, career transition out of the game can be a really difficult time. And there's you know, multiple examples of athletes that have struggled with it. And I wasn't necessarily sure what I was going to find, but when I was looking at um doing these interviews, I was just interested to see the kind of experiences they've had. And one of the players I um interviewed had a really difficult transition out of the game, and the other player had a really smooth transition out of the game, despite the fact they had both been forced out of the game as a result of significant injuries. Um, and when I got into it and the research, it kind of the biggest defining factor that influenced their career transition was their sense of identity. So one player kind of really massively defined his sense of self-worth, self-esteem based on being a cricketer. So, therefore, as soon as he wasn't able to do that, he had a massive kind of drop-off, obviously, in self-esteem and sense of worth, which led to a lot of difficulties for him. The other player didn't define himself as being a cricketer. He liked being successful, he liked earning money. And so for him, he just turned it out to business. And as long as within the business world he was being successful and earning money, then that kind of you know was what was important for him. So he hadn't defined his sense of self-worth and being a cricketer. So his transition out of the game ended up being a lot smoother. And so that really kind of piqued my interest and looked into more around this idea of identity and where does it form and how does it form and you know what yeah, but that does seem to be one of the defining factors in terms of people's career transition out of the game later, kind of later in life.

Speaker 1 5:18

Yeah, and I I think it's um it's not something that I don't know if you even subconsciously think about it with support as you're growing up. You know, I I I I knew I was talking to you today, and I I was thinking about my own playing and the and the fact that I think I spent 15, 20 years deeming it as a failure, even after having an England trial and and being quite good as an under-19 and a rugby player and got paid a little bit for playing. I I when it stopped, it was just like, oh well, I failed because that's what it was. And I never unraveled it, but actually, I don't think I ever thought about it when I was sort of striving to be quite good. I never sat there and thought, oh, this is my only identity. It was just something that naturally took a course of action.

Speaker 6:07

Um, no, I think you're spot on. I I think that's exactly it. We don't, you know, most of us don't sit around thinking about our identity. And if we did, it's quite a big question and quite can be quite an overwhelming question in terms of like, well, who am I? So we don't, but we naturally, we naturally develop some of these kind of beliefs about ourselves and also our behavior kind of like reinforces some of our identity. It's a bit of a circular circular relationship between identity and behavior, in that if you have a particular identity, so you know, for you, you define yourself as a rugby player. Well, if you define yourself as a rugby player, you go to training, you eat the right foods, you know, you take part in reviews, you do whatever. But then that reinforces the strength of your identity. But also because you're a rugby player, you know, that you know, you might behave in a certain way because that's what you believe is expected of a rugby player. So you kind of get this circular relationship where your identity influences your behavior. But as a result of that, your behavior reinforces the identity. And that's all happening exactly as you say. That's not a conscious process that's happening. And also you're not actively seeking that identity necessarily, but it's what happens. But it's also culturally, so through being in the environment that you're in at rugby, certain messages, certain views, certain narratives will be reinforced about what it means to be a rugby player or you know how that translates. So that kind of helps or influences the shaping of the identity as well.

Speaker 1 7:25

Yeah, so I I think it becomes then then paramount for I think working with young people, particularly in in sort of high performance sport, and particularly when you talk about self-worth and self-esteem. And I guess lots of people who have been through that and realize that it that it can cause a problem. Um how do we bring it to life for young people, or how do we maybe help support parents with how they see it, what they should be looking for?

Speaker 7:57

Yeah. Well, I think one of the first things is not to close off options too early. And different sports that have different approaches on this. And, you know, what the classic one that always comes up is football because, you know, football typically specialise very early. Um, and that can be that can be a challenge because from a very young age, then players start to get that sense of identity, and this is what I'm deemed to be deemed to be worthy for. And what we what we tend to find in those situations is you experience something or young people can experience if we're not careful, something called identity foreclosure, which is when very early you get that kind of funneling effect where it that is the only thing they end up doing. Yes, they're still going to school, but sometimes they're even educated at the football club. So therefore, everything becomes about football. So the opportunity to kind of explore other options and to kind of get that sense of like just exploring, because what we don't want is that a young age you define your identity. Identity evolves over time and you want to explore and you want to seek out different things and have different experiences. So from a parent's point of view, I'd really encourage them not to kind of almost like be too narrow in like, well, you just do football or you just do that. Like give kids the option to try a variety of different things and a variety of different, um, you know, a variety of different sports so that they're experiencing, you know, they're experiencing different things. Um, because we want that. And also we know from research that, you know, as you know, like doing a variety of different sports also from young age is important for success, you know, later on as well. So we don't want to kind of have this situation where we where we close stuff off. Um that's definitely part of it practically is making sure we don't close options off too early. Um, but I think there's other things around uh I guess around that sense of like what messages are we reinforcing and what things are we, you know, praising, um praising our kids for. So for example, if we're only ever giving them praise in the space of a particular sport that they do, you know, then the kid, you know, potentially starts to learn, oh, that's what I get love for. You know, and that's not a conscious decision as a parent, you know, to go, well, I only praise them for this, but sometimes that can just naturally end up playing out. So therefore they can start, you know, the young person can start to develop a belief, well, if I want to be lovable and I want to be worthy, well, I need to start doing well in football or my golf or my hockey or whatever it whatever it might be, so kind of being cautious of where we're do you know what I mean, where we're kind of heaping praise for want of a better phrase.

Speaker 1 10:16

Yeah, I thought and I I think the I think the the pressure comes on parents is trying to make sense of that for our young people or the pressure that they deem, particularly I think about the the sort of football academy experience and and the fact that you're in there and you you see everything that that comes with it. And I I still remember, you know, when I used to say, Oh, I'll see you in August, in May, you were looked as though you were an alien, you know, almost though. Well, what do you mean that that's going to be it for three months and you're going to go and do something else? But actually, you know, we're starting to see data now that shows that kids who did a wider variety of sports when they were younger have potentially got more chance of being elite than those that only ever did one. And I always find that fascinating talking to parents because they're like, Well, how do you explain that, Gordon? Because surely the more you do, the better you'll be. And then that becomes really difficult. But yeah, to a point. And then you come off the other side of the cliff because you then run into the challenges that we all know they face the potential burnout, overuse injuries, um, not getting the most out of training sessions because it's just become so monotonous. Um and actually, I think for young people, you're right. I think the ability to have or the options to have different social groups, different hobbies. I mean, it doesn't have to be sport because you'll exactly you'll get a lot of parents who say, Oh, well, this is all very well and good, but quite honestly, I haven't got the time. I'm managing a job, I'm managing other siblings, I'm running around like an idiot. And actually, how the heck am I meant to facilitate another another sport in amongst it now?

Speaker 2 11:58

Yeah.

Speaker 1 11:59

School picks up some of that in in some aspects. But actually, it doesn't just have to be sport, does it?

Speaker 12:05

It could be No, not in the slightest, absolutely anything. And like you say, you made a really good point, I think, about different friendship groups. Because again, sometimes if we get our friends just from one particular arena, you know, you get exposed to a certain group of people. Well, actually, having friends outside of sport, if you're particularly invested in one particular sport, but having friends at school who perhaps aren't involved in that is also really healthy. But making sure we encourage young people to say, make sure you spend time with those friends as well as your sports friends, and so that we're kind of, you know, widening, as you say, their social circle and the and the influence of people that's around them. But I think the other thing that's worth noting, because I think a lot of the time people say, well, you know, exactly what you were saying, that people believe, well, surely being dedicated to one sport is better. And like you say, but what the the way I try and put it across to people is when you're whatever sport you're doing, when you're there, you absolutely, yes, you want to be 100% focused. That's really important, whether you're at your football session or your cricket session or whatever, you want to be 100% focused at that time. But having 100% focused doesn't mean 100% of the time. So then when you're not at football, when you're not at hockey, you know, when you're not a gymnastics, there's other time to be to be doing things, whether that's like you say, a hobby or just spending time with friends or even doing your schoolwork, but just making sure you are recognizing that 100% focus on something doesn't have to mean 100% of the entirety of the time. It's just 100% when you're physically at your training session. And the other thing I would say for parents as well, and I hear that point around, you know, yeah, they haven't necessarily got time to be taking them to lots of different clubs. It's not just about that, it's also about, I think there's a big role. And I think coaches and supporter staff, we have a role to play in this as well, but also parents is helping players to recognise and athletes to recognise what skills are you developing within the sport that can also be applied to other domains. So you might be really determined. So as a young person, you might be really developing your determination skills, you might be developing your resilience, you might be developing, you know, your concentration. What skills are they getting out of those sessions? And how do those skills then apply to other areas of life, whether that's depending on their age, whether that's like, you know, for a driving test, the ability to be able to manage pressure, or whether it's, you know, communication skills that they've learned that means they can communicate better with teachers at school or whatever that might be. But almost therefore you're broadening the skill set that someone has and recognizing that that skill set doesn't just exist in one domain, but actually that can come across to other areas as well. Because I think that's important. Because if you then kind of fast forward to the whole career transition piece, actually, athletes have got a huge amount of skill set that can be applied in another domain, like the player I talked about earlier, who then just applied it in a business setting. So it's about recognising that we there's a transferability across skills. And I sometimes do that exercise with young people where we'll say, I'll get them to have a picture of themselves like in their sports kit and a picture of themselves outside of sport, so in you know, cities, so to speak, um, and get them to annotate it and go, right, what what strengths, what skills have you got, you know, within cricket? Um, and then you know, let's say they say determination, I say, okay, well, do you also have that outside? Because what outside of cricket as an example, like what else do you have? What other skills do you have? What attributes do you have? And then you can have some really interesting conversation, right? Right, well, how does determination help you in cricket? But equally, how does determination, if they put it on both diagrams, how does determination help you outside of cricket? So you're just helping to kind of broaden that sense rather than everything being channeled towards one specific thing.

Speaker 1 15:33

Yeah, I I think that's uh, you know, for me, the biggest point. I know I know in our work with parents and some of the young people, that idea of the development of those skills is ultimately what we're trying to do. We're helping young people understand why they're being successful and why they're being winning. You know, everybody wants to in performance wants to have an outcome. Everybody's going to celebrate that great, but what are we actually doing? And it's it's quite a nice thing you talked about annotating there. I ask parents what do they hope that the their kids get from their sporting experience? You know, an eight and a half groups out of ten will tell us that the hope in the develop those skills. Now, those types of skills, and it's great. And then and then of course, the worst question I definitely get asked is how do you know it's all been worth it? And of course, how how do you answer that to the people who've committed so much time, money, and and everything else? And actually, the only answer I'm comfortable giving, which links to this, is that if you they view sport, which still remains today one of the safest vehicles to equip their children with a wide range of character and life skills that will allow them to thrive in whatever walk of life they go into, it's absolutely been worth it. But actually, what we're missing is that even if you wanted to achieve the best outcomes in sport, you're still going to need a lot of those traits. So, actually, in your role as a parent on something you can influence and control, we've got to find ways of bringing those to life, which I guess then links to what you've already talked about. Because how do young people value these traits? How do young people put them into their context? If actually most of us, and I include myself in this sometimes as parents, spend a large part of the time focusing on a specific outcome. Because as you say, that's all our children will value. That's all mum and dad care about is you know, have I won? Have I achieved what I meant to achieve? And actually, that isn't how we support it. We need to be supporting what's giving them the best chance of getting there.

Speaker 17:39

Yeah, definitely. And and also when you were saying that question, is it worth it? I mean, the the answer I immediately come to mind, well, have they enjoyed it?

unknown 17:46

Yeah.

Speaker 17:46

Have they had a great time? Have they made some friends? Have they, you know, that's that's such an important point as well. And and it can be really difficult for parents. But one of the things I come across a little bit now with athletes, senior athletes, is that sense of like, oh, sometimes, you know, feeling that their parents are kind of trying to live vicariously through them when they were younger, you know, like maybe the parent had been a rugby player but didn't necessarily make it. And actually now their child making it is kind of validating the parents almost. And I'll that's always a bit of a warning I have for parents in terms of yes, it's natural that you want your child to do well and you have aspirations for them, and particularly if you've, you know, particularly if you've been involved in the sport and you think you perhaps didn't achieve what you wanted to achieve or what you could have achieved for whatever reason, that's natural, but just try and have the self-awareness. You can have those feelings yourself. That's totally acceptable. But just be really cautious, have a bit of a warning with it for yourself in terms of are you kind of trying to live out your experiences through through your child because you want them to develop their own experience, you know, their own experiences of it. Um which is which is easy to say and hard to do, but it's a bit of a kind of warning.

Speaker 1 18:56

Yeah, I mean, what's what's cropped up over the last few months, and you get asked it quite a lot. You know, I've had a few parents come up and say, Gordon, I I know absolutely nothing about the sport my child's doing. And I'm like, it may be a good thing. Yeah, exactly. And you know, they're really worried, and they say, Well, what do you mean? And it's like, well, you can just be a parent. Yeah, there's no blurring of of roles or lines, you can play the role as a parent. And then, of course, you speak to other people. I just had Duncan Hodge on the um Meet the Parent series, the ex Scott uh Scottish International, and he's been coaching his child for a young age, and we were talking about aspects of it can be a good thing if you do the right things at the right times and you have got that experience, but then we've also got a lot of uh high performers who've coached their own kids where it's completely backfired because as you say, they've just assumed that their children are like them. So, what work for their kids, they've adopted the same approach, copied and pasted it, and the whole thing's blown up. And I think we've got to I think for us as parents, we've got to remember that every child is different. And I think that when you talk about that enjoyment piece, and I think of another part of our sessions around that fun element is what might be fun for you is going to be very different for me. What motivates you and what motivates me is going to be different. So actually, surely the conversation then is you need to talk to your own kid, you need to ask the questions, and then you can then in a position to actually support them because you know what it's like world of sport, people try to tell us how kids think. Well, no, they don't, because some think like that, but some don't, or this is the one way of doing it. No, everybody is different.

Speaker 20:43

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think you're totally right. And I think there's also that piece, and I see it, you know, on Saturday mornings watching my stepson play football, how invested, and that's under 10s football, how invested parents get into the game and into the result. And you know, from my experience, I watch them. Yes, the kids want to win, of course they do. Like kids will always want to win. Anybody goes into a competitive situation and wants to win. But the reality is, you know, where my son plays his home football pitch, there's a park on the grounds as well. Well, regardless of the result, win or lose, the first thing the kids do is run straight over and want to go in the park. So even if they've lost, you know, they might have a moment of being a bit disappointed that they've lost, but they're straight onto then they're climbing up things and they're jumping off things in the park and with their mates. And that's what they care about, is having a good time being social. And whereas actually it's the parents that are standing on the side that still kind of can't believe that they've lost and are really upset about it. You're thinking, but your child is totally fine and had a great Saturday morning, really enjoyed it. They've they're developing the skills. Yes, they're maybe on the wrong side of the result, but are they developing, are they enjoying it? Are they developing those social skills? Are they having a good time? And that and and that's key.

Speaker 1 21:46

Yeah, and I think then, you know, it it it again, it's that bit around children see the world very differently to adults.

Speaker 2 21:54

Yeah.

Speaker 1 21:54

You know, and you know, in many cases, certainly with under 10s, as you say, that they bounce back very quickly. They're like you say in the park, wondering what they're going to have on the pizza that evening. Yeah, exactly. And then and then we're still stewing on it three weeks later. Exactly. Exactly. You know, it's it's it's a real self-awareness piece around. I mean, the research of Amanda Vissak's fascinating, isn't it? That you know, when she came up with those 81 different definitions of fun that the children put winning at 48th and playing in a competition at 60th. Now, I don't get that, but I've been institutionalized by sport. You know, I can't ever imagine that that's where I would have put those two things as a child playing. I certainly wouldn't put them there as a coach, and I certainly wouldn't put them there as a parent when I've put my kids in sport. I'm always very honest about that.

Speaker 22:44

Yeah.

Speaker 1 22:45

And I think some kids would rank those highly, but maybe not quite as highly as we think.

Speaker 22:52

That's an interesting question for parents to ask their child, like, what is it you enjoy about going to football and whatever at the weekends? And we probably never ask them, we just take them and we don't ever stop and go, what do you really enjoy about being involved in your football club or you know, even if it's your local team, or what do you enjoy about swimming or whatever? You know, why don't we ask them? Sometimes I think we don't have those conversations. Whereas, you know, conversations in the car to and from games or whatever is a great opportunity to have some of those conversations about what did you, you know, what did you enjoy today, or what do you enjoy generally about being part of this team?

Speaker 1 23:21

Yeah, and then ask them. Yeah, and I think children's answers change to that. Yeah, totally. I think it's a regular, it's a regular check-in point. I I do think it's important for parents to have these chats, ask these questions, because particularly in the case of that one, I think of when children may be a bit tired after school, maybe children a little bit demotivated, maybe children have just suffered some disappointment. We need to actually know what it is that's motivating them in the first place. At least it gives us a hook into conversation as opposed to driving it from our values and our beliefs.

Speaker 23:58

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And there's also been some research out in the last few years that have started to look at with athletes how like their narratives and how they talk about it, and they've differentiated between athletes that have got what we might describe as a performance-based narrative, where it's all about kind of outcome and it's very much about uh striving for perfectionism and all the rest of it versus those athletes that are a bit more um have more of a purpose-based narrative where it is about that kind of higher purpose and yes, wanting to do well and wanting to achieve, but also there's more to it than just the outcome. And starting to kind of encourage some of those conversations with young people from a young age around the fact that outcome, yes, of course, we kind of go into it wanting an outcome, but it's not the only thing we can get. And actually, if we understand the bigger picture and developing the teamwork skills and all of this kind of stuff, and you know, I think about the work I do within GB Women's Hockey, and they've got a very clear kind of higher purpose around being the difference, creating, creating kind of history and um inspiring the future. And that really drives them. And we fundamentally believe that that drives performance as well. That's not just the nice to have that. If you've got a higher purpose, it drives performance. Um, so you know, helping kind of expand narrative. So it's not just about like I've got to be perfect. And and listen to your kids, it's interesting because kids, you know, some kids at a young age do develop a bit of perfectionist tendencies, like they want to get stuff right first time, they want to be perfect, they don't want to make a mistake, you know, they can't deal with it well. And we want to, you know, I would love for us to be able to develop all of those skills in and kids. And it's an and it's an interesting actually one seeing it with my um with my stepson when he kind of, you know, sometimes school report that he's really resilient. But then sometimes from a sporting point of view, if he can't do it first time, he'll get frustrated and all the rest of it. Um, and you kind of want to intervene at this point because actually, if we can help kids at a young age develop some of these skills, we're we're really equipping them, you know, for life later on and recognizing that actually you're not going to learn if you don't make mistakes, and you're not gonna be able to get better if you don't make a mistake. That's part of the process, and we're okay with that. And you know, we're not expecting you to be perfect and we're not expecting you to get this right first time. And yeah, it's not an easy journey, but I think those conversations are important.

Speaker 1 26:02

It's not, and I I've done some stuff with teenagers recently where uh you know we put up the graphic that shows the nature of anyone achieving that you know, you're littered with ups, downs, plateaus, everything that goes with it. And I've had quite a few of them recently say, Thanks, Gordon. And it's like, what are you thanking me for? And they said, Thanks for letting us know that it's all right for us to mess up. Thanks for letting us know that actually that's normal and actually normalize it. I mean, I do hear this, you know, you've got to celebrate failure and embrace it. No, thanks. I don't I don't I don't sell it like that. I don't want to celebrate it, I don't want to embrace it. What I say to parents is I think we've got to normalize it for young people and our reactions to it, particularly around normal elements in sport. I think there's there's definite conversations that that we have to have. That's cropped up a lot recently. This is I guess a bit of perfectionism. Maybe it's the sports I work in, particularly around, I think about gymnastics and acro and and some of the stuff there. And you know, it sits uncomfortably with me with 10, 11-year-olds having to go and seek help for for performance anxiety, whether whether, and that's my own belief. That's that that might not be other people's, but certainly with me. Um going slightly off tangent, how do we try to sort of stop that, stop that happening, the perfectionist? Or what can we do as per parents? Because surely it's on us a little bit on the environment. Definitely.

Speaker 27:31

Yeah, I mean, I think partly role modeling is a is a big part with parents. So, like, actually, how open are we with our kids when perhaps we've done something that hasn't kind of worked perfectly first time or we've got something wrong? Like, do you know what I mean? How good are we at kind of role modeling some of these things? Um, I think that's a really big because that's how kids learn, is through through the environment and through through role modeling things and seeing us. And so, actually, how we react to certain things a lot of the time when you understand the child and then you understand the family and the system think, okay, well it's not really surprising the child's active like that or behave like that, or not behaved, but you know what I mean, had a response like that because that might be mirroring how we as adults behave. So I think that's a really important point is recognizing, and particularly within our own home environments, which we've all got control over, is how are we as adults reacting when things don't quite go well, or I don't know, we're cooking and something hasn't quite gone to plan and the meal tastes a bit odd or whatever it is, like you do what I mean? Like, what's our own response and how are we talking about those events? Or, you know, I'm not saying we have to go into details with our kids about us having had a bad day at work, but if there comes up naturally, you know, whether we're, I don't know, maybe we're helping them to build something that actually, oh my God, it's really fiddly and it's really annoying, you know, at Christmas time and they get a new toy and they can't, you can't build it and it's really frustrating. But if we're demonstrating the resilience and the skills or we're getting it wrong, but we're still gonna try again and that's okay, I think that's a big, a big part of it. And equally, when they do get things wrong or they do mess up or they don't get something right, again, how do we respond to that? Because they'll learn from our responses, they'll learn from how we interact with them when they've not got something perfect. And if we're, you know, having a go at them and saying it's not good enough and all of this kind of stuff, well then they're gonna start to learn, oh God, I've got to be, you know, I've got to be perfect. And the reality is sometimes kids will develop these beliefs anyway from a variety of different sources, not just goes on what goes on with us as parents, but we do have a responsibility, I think, to try and influence, to try and influence that. Because you're right, we don't want kids that young to be start developing some of these tendencies. And if we if we start to see that happening, they're much more malleable now than if you imagine in another 10 years' time when that's consistently been ingrained for 10 years, well, then that's much more difficult to change because the beliefs have become so much more entrenched.

Speaker 1 29:38

Yeah, I I've I yeah, I I've been amazed by I guess how sort of sport and the way it's perceived and what we're expecting from it um recently, because if you put your child into sport, or let's say your child ends up in a performance sport, whether that be a football academy or pathway or whatever that may be, there's a number of things you and I can completely guarantee now, not because we're the oracles on sport, but I can guarantee, because it was the same 50 years ago, it'll be the same 50 years from now, that your child's gonna have the best day in the world, the worst day, somewhere in the middle, someday better than average, someday less than average. They will fall out with a teammate, they will fall out with a coach, they will get injured, they will get deselected, they will um have something unjust happen to them caused by an official another, all of those things. But I think it's our reaction that's caused the problem because we've turned what is actually a normal part of an experience in some cases into the greatest catastrophe since World War II. And we've got to be better, and I challenge because that's what we get criticized for. That isn't my quote, that's what we get criticized as this generation of parents for is this overprotection. But actually, if your your kids in that sport, we've got to help them understand that's all right.

Speaker 31:05

Yeah, but we also we also want them to have those experiences, you know.

Speaker 1 31:09

But yeah, well, we do, but but there's a lot who struggle with it, and that's another topic, that's a topic for another day that you have to talk about. This is what we're trying to unravel, though, isn't it?

Speaker 31:18

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But yeah, you're right. We we they are things, as you say, and and that's almost an important point of going. And actually, when we're doing parent education sessions within sports that we work in and all of that kind of stuff, you're right. That sense of going, we can guarantee now these things will happen. And and that's so and that's okay. And yes, they won't deal with all of them brilliantly because they're learning and they're developing, but that's also okay because that's part of the process of learning and understanding themselves. But I think that kind of conversation around, and we do that even if I look at the performance end of sport, you know, with hockey, we've got Olympic qualifiers in January, and we've already gone through a process where we've gone, right, sitting here right now, you know, two months out, what do we know for certain? It's gonna be tough, it's gonna be pressurized, it's not gonna be easy, you know, things are likely to go wrong. But we know that sitting here now. So we can't then be surprised when that happens.

Speaker 2 32:05

Yeah.

Speaker 32:06

Because we already know that. So we've got to manage that when we get there. We can't spend and waste energy thinking, oh my god, I can't believe this has happened and this is unfair and this, that, and the other, because we knew two months ago that was likely to be the case.

Speaker 1 32:16

Yeah.

Speaker 32:17

And I think that's a good thing.

Speaker 1 32:18

And I think people in sport, I think people in sport have held on to too much information. And certainly when I've been working with coaches and and organizations, I just know what, let's just paint the picture a little bit better. You know, when they come into the let's just paint the picture. We know what's coming, we know some of the pinch points that might might appear. Why are we not actually doing this? Because I think a lot of the poor parent reactions to things, the bad bits we see actually come with the shock. Yeah, and the same releasing foot with the release in the football programs, actually, if your kids in it, you've got to run that risk. My son was released you know, after a few years in a in a Premier League academy. And when you put them in, you've got to accept that that's a part of the part of the process. I think the challenge comes where we maybe have sugar-coated reviews, or we've maybe not provided the right information to allow people to prepare. And actually, you suddenly wake up one day and you just totally don't expect the news that you're gonna get or you're gonna see.

Speaker 33:23

Totally. And one of the biggest things that feeds anxiety is uncertainty. So that piece you talked about, actually, we need to, you know, up front, need to be a bit more honest about things, need to say this is what's coming up, would do a massive job in managing people's levels of anxiety that we can get about worrying about our child, are they gonna be okay? What happens if this happens? Actually, if we know some of the things that can happen, and as you say, if in reviews, you know, they're more kind of realistic about things, then it isn't a massive shock. Then people are much better able to navigate their way through those scenarios. But as you say, when it comes as a complete shock and you feel like you've just dropped off a cliff, that's a real problem. And then if you add that into they get released and they've their entire sense of self-worth and self-esteem is built on being successful at that thing, it does send them into a bit of a what am I gonna do now? Who am I now? Uh, you know, and and at the deepest level, I've said this phrase a few times, but fundamentally at the deepest level, like, am I worthy? Am I lovable? You know, if they've developed that really ingrained belief that actually to be accepted, to be loved, I have to be good at this. But if I suddenly get dropped, oh my gosh, that's a massive, massive implication on how you see yourself and how you think you're gonna be accepted by the world.

Speaker 1 34:29

Yeah, I mean, we we've I guess we taught you know what parents can do in making sure and we're all trying to promote multifaceted kids, kids with different interests, hobbies, other sports, social groups, all the things around it. What happens if our children make that tricky for us? Well they will do. Yeah, they will, you know, what happens if they can't separate, I guess, being really driven, and that's all they actually want, you know, because there are some young people who are massively extrinsically motivated just to just to be the best. How what do we do at that stage?

Speaker 35:06

Well, I think part of that is reinforcing the message that look, I'm fully supportive of you, I'll do what I can to support you and all the rest of it, but just so you know, I love you irrespective of what you achieve. And that's a really simple message, but a really, really important one because so they don't feel that your love is contingent on them being successful or them achieving, you know. So, yeah, absolutely, parent, you know, half these kids wouldn't get anywhere without the parents and the parental support that they've had along along the way. And that's that's really important. And, you know, ironically, sometimes by being the person that constantly drives in someone, all the rest of it probably starts to reinforce the view that you do, do you know what I mean? That you are also invested in it, which you are. But it's trying to separate out from yes, I want to massively support you, yes, I'll do everything I can to help you achieve achieve your dreams and help you get to where you get to. But if this doesn't work, I'm still going to love you the same as if you do get there.

Speaker 1 35:56

Yeah. And again, you know, it it sounds such a simple thing, but actually in the chaos of everything, you sometimes forget to make that point.

Speaker 36:06

Yeah. And and I ask athletes now, adult athletes, you know, when we sometimes look back and try and understand and make sense of the way they're at and say, you know, you know, sometimes you kind of say, Well, tell me a bit about what it was like growing up, and did you know, how did you feel in terms of like, did you feel you needed to be successful? And that's and often they'll say yes, and that's that's not as a criticism to parents at all. They've done everything, they've done everything they can do in support of everything. But sometimes that simple message of just saying, and irrespective of this, I'm still gonna love you regardless. Because actually, uh at a logical level, all the athletes I work with where I've had conversations like this, logically, they know their parents love them regardless.

Speaker 2 36:42

Yeah.

Speaker 36:42

So logically, cognitively, they can they understand that, but it's what emotionally it felt like when they were younger that's developed.

Speaker 1 36:51

Yeah, and I and I think, yeah, absolutely. And I I think the um it's interesting, isn't it? Because again, people try to box off parents, and I I don't think there can be anything worse than labeling about you know, good, bad, helpful, unhelpful support. Because the reality is that I'm good, bad, helpful, and unhelpful every week. Absolutely. And I live and breathe it. And I I I think there's there's some comfort in that. You know, you you think I look at the David Beckham documentary, I think of some of the criticism Dad read, and everybody wanted to throw the thing, oh, well, actually, his parenting wasn't very good. Well, actually, when you look at what David got through, which I was blown away by, actually, there may have been some good stuff in there from dad inadvertently. You know, it may not fit your stereotypical perfect model of the world that everybody wants to put out, that everybody's the same. But actually, for me, and that's why I never commentated on it, was there must have been something in there through the love and support that helped him with his resilience because oh my goodness, I don't think I've ever seen anything like it.

Speaker 37:50

I know, yeah, it was unbelievable. Yeah, absolutely. But I think you made the point there as well. Like it again, we can get stuck into this binary thing of like parents are good or bad. And as you say, it's just that's just not the case. All of us who are in a parenting role, kind of as you say, you get stuff right, you get stuff wrong, you have more patience one day than you have the next day, and that's influenced by the day that we've had at work or other things going on. Like, absolutely. And again, that's where it's an interesting one. You think about the role modeling piece. Like, we're trying to encourage our kids not to be perfectionists. Well, if we as parents are trying to be perfection, then we're not going to get it right either, because that doesn't, it doesn't exist. And we don't want that to exist. You know, that's not a healthy place to be. We're not going to be perfect parents. But if we mess up or we get it wrong, are we having those conversations? Say, oh, do you know what? I got that wrong. I didn't get quite, well, I'm sorry. And and teaching that actually having conversations, we don't get things right all the time is is just a part of, it's just a natural part of life, you know, and therefore we have to manage our own expectations on ourselves, you know, as parents.

Speaker 1 38:46

Yeah. Do you do you think technology is causing us a problem on this identity piece as well, in so much that, you know, you talk about facilitating other hobbies, other interests. And I know that obviously there can be other interests through technology and through devices, but you know, we we've desperately been trying to encourage families to go and do something away from their sports without the devices. So A, they have some conversations, and B, they realize that the world's a bigger place than just the performance sport they're doing.

Speaker 39:16

Yeah, it's really interesting. And we have, I mean, Nick and I have these conversations all the time about technology at home. And, you know, my stepson absolutely loves loves the Xbox. And it was fascinating. He made a comment the other day about um how actually he well, not only, but he mainly enjoys the Xbox when his friends are online and he's got a little headset and he'll talk to his friends. And actually for him, the Xbox becomes a social, you know, he's he's 10, he'd nine at the moment, under 10. He doesn't have a mobile phone of his own, you know, he's no way of contacting his friends actually outside of school, apart from through us. But so therefore, actually playing on the Xbox and being connected to his friends and chatting with his friends is actually what he really enjoys about it, more so than I think probably, yes, he enjoys playing the game, but I think it's he's very social, but I think it's the social piece for him. And there's lots of, you know, there's lots of advantages to that. But I think you've got to manage the balance then of how much, you know, how much that is occupying their time. And as you say, I think still spending time as a family away from technology and doing things where you're interacting, you're having conversations. It's the same thing of like, you know, if you watch TV every time you're eating dinner, well, sometimes you lose that sense of kind of like, you know, wanting to kind of actually have conversations with people. And that's a really important thing to make sure we do. That doesn't mean you can never watch TV. You know, you might choose sometimes to watch a film where you're having dinner, and that's great, that's lovely. But make sure there are there's a balance of sometimes when actually you don't have technology and you're just having a conversation and finding out about people's days and you know, having different conversations about whatever things, you know, might come up, or or even playing countless games of ISPY that sometimes we end up doing, you know, whatever it might be. Yeah, that sense of just spending some quality time together. But I think the challenge comes as kids get older, and obviously as they get phones and you know, they start interacting with social media, and I think that does start to play a bit of a bit of a sense. And I think from an identity point of view, it's interesting as well because we've not explored it because it's probably a whole other topic, but obviously we all have, you know, a social identity as well, which is groups to which we belong, which then influence, you know, our sense of self-esteem. So even football teams, when people support a team and the team does well or does poorly, like that has a big influence, you know, in terms of how people feel about themselves as well. And, you know, there's also some horrible stats around domestic abuse when people's football teams win and lose and all that kind of stuff. So we know there's a really strong impact. But also as as people, you know, young people develop and they start to get in with groups at school and social groups and what that starts to mean in terms of their identity, then then the desire and the and sometimes the need to feel you have to keep up with that or be aware of what's going on in social media becomes really important. I remember talking to um one of the England footballers I used to work with, and I remember him saying, I really wish I didn't have social media. And I was like, you know, you don't have to. And he was like, No, I do. He was like, You just don't know what's going on otherwise, and you can't keep up with the conversations in the dressing room and you know, all of that. And it's it's one of those, like if you want to still feel like you belong, which ultimately fundamentally we all want to do, it's that double-edged sword of you want to be seeing the latest thing on TikTok that everyone's talking about, because otherwise, if you're the one there that's got no idea what's going on, well, that makes it difficult to feel part of the group, so it's a really tough one, yeah.

Speaker 1 42:25

And it's a nightmare thing to unravel as a sports parent. We we've tried to do some work on what we can do for coaches, parents, and kids, which is the triangle we work in on the use of it and trying to link it to that character building and those traits and how it can negatively affect performance. And you know, we were talking to parents last night and saying that I don't think there can be any advantage from young people going on social media before a match or competition.

Speaker 42:51

I'm still well, so the only thing I would say is there are some sports I've worked in that have, and you might count this as a different thing, but that have um like private Instagram accounts, and that becomes a way of you know, medical department, not medical, but you know, um strength conditioning departments or nutrition feeding information around stuff.

Speaker 1 43:12

And I think that's do I think that's different because I think the stuff I'm talking about is the the general young person who basically goes on to Facebook, Snapchat, or Instagram, yeah, and actually they're not gonna feel necessarily great by that. I I for me, the only thing they're gonna see is a bad message that's gonna throw them off or something.

Speaker 43:32

And again, and I I think part of that, our role is to try and help them to think about. I always start if you're talking about pre-match preparation, you know, I always start to go with right, when you play at your best, what you're thinking, what you're feeling, what you're doing. So let's start from a point of view of where we're striving to get to. And once we know what that looks like and we understand what that looks like, then we can kind of backtrack from that and say, right, well, if you want to be feeling like this and you want to be thinking like this, what kind of behaviors are helpful before you get there? So actually, if you want to be feeling confident and you want to be feeling connected and all this kind of stuff, and they say, Well, I go on social media beforehand, you can then start to have the conversation and go, well, it do you think that's a help? Is that not do you think that's a but you know, I mean, how does that help you? How does it not help you? So you start to help them go, is this or is this not helpful? Rather than it being this blanket thing of it shouldn't be this. Because it goes back to your point earlier, every single person is different. And there may be someone who goes, Do you know what? That really helps me to switch off and I get quite anxious. And actually, just having five minutes to get lost in another world actually really helps me. Now, if that is a considered approach, you've thought about whether it's helpful or not helpful performance, you've thought about the state you're trying to get into, I'm okay with that.

Speaker 2 44:38

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 44:38

But it's when it's not thought out and it becomes an aimless task, and before you know it, you've ended up doom scrolling as we might call it. Do you know what I mean? And and that's when it's not helpful. But I think if it's, you know, yeah, yeah, it's a considered task for each individual.

Speaker 1 44:51

Yeah. And I think that's good. And I've fallen guilty into my own trap of saying no, there isn't one hard, fast rule for everybody, because I've just not said there is. But then that's my but that's my personal bias with my own kids, I think, which isn't helping, which isn't helping with that. Um, I'm just conscious of of time because turning into one of the longest episodes, um, which shows hopefully that the chat's been a good one. Um last question, because I know this is one of your favorite ones. Um, does having a an on-pitch identity or persona mean being a different person? Can you make that for us?

Speaker 45:25

Yeah, definitely. So we kind of encourage a sense of understanding who you are when you kind of step on that pitch, when you step over that white line. And this kind of developed a bit from some of the work I did with MMA fighters when, you know, there was that real notion of you kind of need to step into kind of your fighting persona. And it's similar within all the other sports I've worked with. For me, it's not about being a different person. I always want to make it clear that when we talk about identities, it's not about being someone different, it's just about understanding when you step on that pitch, which parts of your personality, which parts of yourself are you accessing at that point in time? And it feeds back into the conversation we had earlier around right, I'm stepping on, I'm going to be determined, I'm going to be focused. But I'm just really clear about I'm now tapping into those parts of my personality. And actually, when I get home and I'm chilling out and I'm watching a film and relaxing, I'm probably not tapping into those parts of my personality because at that point in time I don't need to be determined and focused and all of this. I just need to be chilling. So it's about recognising, you know, having that differentiation between on and off pitch identity can be helpful from a performance enhancement point of view, but it's not about being someone else, it's just being clear on what parts of yourself you're tapping into when.

unknown 46:28

Yeah.

Speaker 1 46:28

So I mean it's just the complexity of personalities, isn't it? Exactly. Yeah, tapping into what you do. Rebecca, um amazing conversation. Um, absolutely loved having you uh on the show. Thank you for sharing uh your thoughts and expertise and experiences um with us. Hopefully, uh we will get a chance to do something again uh in the future.

Speaker 46:50

Yeah, sounds good. Really enjoyed it.

Speaker 1 46:54

Thank you. Check it out.co.uk