High Performance, Self-Awareness and Sports Parenting - 'A conversation with Lewis Moody'

In the first episode of Season 6, former England rugby international and World Cup Winner Lewis Moody joins Gordon MacLelland to discuss high performance, sports parenting and some of the things he has learnt and reflected on through a lifetime in sport.

During the conversation they discuss amongst other things:

• Enjoying the journey as a family from development centre to young professional
• The importance of wider family structure and support on the journey
• Developing our own self-awareness and communication skills to help us navigate the journey effectively
• Exploring the information, we read and hear from different sources
• The healthy management of expectations, balance and boundaries
• The challenges of instant gratification
• Making healthy choices and recognising the potential consequences of our choices
• The importance of focussing on 'today' and not looking too far into the future
• The huge influence of parents and home in helping our young people fulfil their potential

Lewis Moody is a former English rugby union player and world cup winner. He played for Leicester Tigers and Bath Rugby and was part of the 2003 World Cup winning side. 

In May 2014, Lewis and his wife Annie set up The Lewis Moody Foundation, inspired by Joss Rowley-Stark, to fund groundbreaking research to improve the diagnosis and treatment of brain tumours and give families a day out of the ordinary to lift spirits and create special memories.

He is also a performance coach and sporting parent to two sons both currently thriving on their own sporting journeys.

Additional Reading

The fight for acknowledgement and recognition

Can you teach your child determination?

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:01

It's the parents in sport podcast. Amazing. On it, on the date. Welcome to season six of the Parents in Sport Podcast. I'm your host, Gordon Maclelland. I'm delighted to be joined today by former England Rugby International and World Cup winner, Lewis Moody. Lewis, thank you for joining us on the show.

Speaker 0:26

Pleasure, mate. Really, really good to connect.

Speaker 1 0:30

Yeah, looking forward to this one. Start of season six. Uh, we're going to be looking at aspects of high performance, uh, but also sports parenting, and I guess merging the two worlds together to see where we are today in both Lewis' world uh and my own. But before we get underway, Lewis, uh, can you just tell us a little bit about what you've been up to uh since retiring from rugby and what you're doing today?

Speaker 0:57

Well, gone, it's been it feels like it's been a very long time since I retired from rugby. It's 12 years now, so an awful lot. Um so I retired in 2012. My buddy, uh buddy finally had enough, you know, 14 operations in 16 years in my fourth shoulder reconstruction. I was just, it was one of those weird ones, you know, where I was actually on the field, and of all things, I tried to make a tap tackle, you know, so a diving, like despairing tap tackle on one of the elusive uh Clarsen's brothers. And uh and I missed him and landed on my shoulder, and I knew the moment I landed on it, I was like, that's it, I know, I know I'm done. And then I fought for like 15 minutes. I was like, I'm not coming on this field, coming off this field until I'm absolutely spent. And uh I finally got sort of substituted after getting knocked out about two or three times because I was having to tackle it with the wrong shoulder because it was knackered. Anyway, it was ludicrous. But um, but yeah, so I had to press a button on the computer that I'm sat at today and actually announce my retirement uh a couple of months after that when I tried to come back from injury. And and since then, um we set up a foundation. So my wife and I set up a foundation supporting young families living with brain tumours. We lost uh we sadly lost uh a young friend called Joss Rowley Stark. Um so I got a letter in the post a couple of weeks after retiring just saying son's got a rare form of cancer, could you help? So I went up, met him, met the family. Um, they wanted to raise some money. Joss wanted to raise some money for his mates going on tour to South Africa, so I dumped a load of old kit that I had spare, obviously, no need to wear it anymore in retirement, and uh and got to meet him, Josh, uh uh sorry, Leo, Tiff, and uh, and Graham, the family, and kept in touch. And uh, and sadly, two years later, Josed. Um and and Annie and I decided to set up the foundation to support young families, young families living with brain tumors, and each year we do a challenge. Um, we go to some fairly um cool parts of the world raising money for the brain tumour charity, so specific projects um that the brain tumour charity are funding at that time. So we've been doing that for 10 years now, which is which is awesome. We've raised uh two and a half million, um, which for for me, my wife, and our small cohort of supporters who come on these crazy challenges with us. It's I feel pretty proud that we've been able to do that. Um, and we will continue to do that always. I'm off to Sahara next week, mate. Actually, get um caught and sandy and sweaty, uh doing 100k. So uh I'll I'll share the link with you at some stage, and then anyone that wants to donate can uh can jump on board. Um, but so that's obviously all charitable. Uh we don't take any money out of that at all. Um and and working life for me is so about four years ago, well, actually start start slightly longer ago, so 14 years ago, 12 years ago, memory memory memory escapes me. So actually, not a dissimilar time we set up the charity, we set up a company that used rugby to keep um children in sixth form education. So there's a big campaign from the government and the RFU at the time to keep kids of that age involved in uh in rugby and in school. Um so we employed young sports coaches who went and delivered programs in schools and and my role in that ended up um sort of mentoring the coaches and then moved into sort of life coaching and various other aspects. So about five years ago, I uh I re-qualified um and I've been doing a number of qualifications in that area around team development and uh and coaching. And and since then I've been working as a performance coach. Um and I always think the term coaching is a strange one because it implies some sort of sharing of wisdom and knowledge and all that type of stuff. And there is, of course, uh, you know, a lived experience and background that I can call upon and share, but really it's you know, it's about helping someone move forward, it's about unpacking their thoughts, you know, and what area of um performance may be important to them, it may be around relationships, social life, maybe around nutrition, maybe around um health and uh health and wealth. I mean, it just it can literally be about anything. So the term coaching or um I sometimes struggle with because really it's about partnerships, it's about working with someone, investing in someone to help them move forward. But um, but yeah, I've been doing that for four or five years now. I'll do it with individuals and teams. So I started off with athletes. That was quite interesting coming from the world of rugby. You know, when uh when a cricketer came to me and said, Oi, look, could you give me any uh I'm looking for a mentor? I thought I don't know whether mentor is the right thing. I'm gonna go and play cricket. I'll give it a good go, but uh you know, very enthusiastic. Um I still actually joined my local cricket club, Hinton Charterhouse, so I could play with my my kids, which I've done and and love and do still. But anyway, it very quickly realized that um you know my lessons from from my sporting background were um beneficial and applicable in in any sport. Um, but really it wasn't about my experiences, it was about the the thinkers' experiences and and working with them to understand how I can support them both. And uh and have been doing that, and that merged into business and teams and and all sorts. So thoroughly loving that. Uh I work with a company called Haddon Coaching now. Um, so life's pretty boring. I don't say boring, ordinary. Ordinary is not the right word either. Um, normal, I don't know what's the right word. Yeah, what what's normal? Yeah, nothing's normal after having played uh you know rugby for for a living and doing the one thing that you loved as a kid that you would have done for free. So when you step out of it and you know it's like, oh my god, what is what is this world that we occupy now?

Speaker 1 6:42

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, you you certainly haven't sat still um since retiring, which actually, yeah, it's amazing that time moves on, doesn't it? When I was sort of thinking you'd retired, and I was thinking back to obviously we were the same year group at school, I'm thinking, actually, that's ages ago now. It's amazing where time goes. And both of us, during that that particular time frame, have have obviously become parents as well. Yeah, uh, and you're the parent of two sons, is that right?

Speaker 7:10

Two boys, yeah. Ethan. So Ethan's my youngest, uh, he's 14, little little rock star, he loves his rugby. Um, and and Dylan, my eldest, is is 16. And well, they both love all their sport, to be honest. Um uh, but Dylan's Dylan's followed a career in in football, which was uh, you know, as someone who had a very stereotypical view of uh football as coming through the the rugby um fraternity, you know, I I didn't play it, I didn't watch it, I didn't understand it. So it's been really eye-opening, it's been a really enjoyable experience actually as a parent, seeing, firstly seeing my child find something that he really enjoys, and having to manage, maneuver through because uh well they're both good sportsmen across all sports, but Dylan at the time was it was county cricket, he'd been offered a a trial with uh Bath um what age group would have been under 15s at that point. Um and he got to the stage where he had to make a decision, you know, he couldn't do it or it was getting way too draining. And without us, with what's the right the right description is I'm just trying to remember how it transpired. So we got a call basically. Dylan wanted to go do some rugby with Bath at the Farley House, which is Bath Rugby's training facility.

Speaker 1 8:32

It's amazing. I I I go there every year, Lewis, because I work in their pathway as well. So I get I get to go to Farley every season, and we do virtual sessions with Bath Rugby. So yeah, I can see the appeal.

Speaker 8:45

It's crazy, isn't it? It's like uh it's I don't know, it doesn't feel so uh having grown up in Leicester, where literally it was like a spit and sawdust shed.

Speaker 1 8:52

Yeah, and do you know what? Having been at Leicester Tigers recently as well, there is a very big difference between the Leicester Tigers training facility and the bathroom.

Speaker 9:01

And do you know what? There's something about that that uh changing tack slightly, you know, that really connects with the environments of those places and the maybe the perceptions, but embracing, you know, where you come from, who you are, um, and all that type of stuff. I remember being in Leicester, coming up in that spit and saw this working-class environment where I was probably one of the only public schoolboys in the team to start with, or one of the few, um, as opposed to looking at Bath, a team that were historically equal, um, if not better, at times in the 80s, to the side that was at in Leicester. We very much looked at them as the sort of uh a softer, more sort of flamboyant, uh expressive team that didn't have the core heart and grunt. And we we looked at ourselves as two very different entities. And actually, what you know what I've learned as I moved from Leicester in my last two seasons and came to Bath is that there was something really brilliant about that Leicester environment and you know the work, it was about working until you were ready, you know, and it was about the basics, it was about no one being bigger than the team, it was about you know um looking after each other, no matter who you were, whether you were Martin Johnson or you know, one of the young lads you were in, you were training, um, and you were all on equal par. And when I came to and the the sort of the flamboyance and the um it was it was quite a regimented way of living, which I quite liked because I had an ambitions of joining the army when I was a kid, if rugby hadn't gone professional, I came to Bath and it was like the polar opposite. It was like the uh it was all about the sort of creativity, and for someone that had been indoctrinated in this type of game, it was almost alien, and I found it really hard to engage with, which I which I could say now with sadness, because when I started playing rugby, I loved the game. I was a center, loved being creative, but I suppose I became conditioned to the way that worked for us as a team in Leicester, yeah. And then when I came to Bath, I I struggled with it. But what you see now, and the point of sharing that with you, is that they are formed in their in their sort of historic likeness, aren't they? You've got this beautiful wedding venue almost that is Farley House that is reinvented for performance, you know, and it's got all the sort of little nooks and crannies, but really it was, you know, it wasn't purpose-built to be uh you know uh an elite environment. It's been manufactured around it, and and it very much echoes to to what sort of bath is about. It's about you know playing a sort of beautiful game. Um, there needs to be strong foundations which maybe exist from the building itself that's been there for hundreds of years, right? But actually allowing players to be creative, expressive, and there's something about Leicester which takes you right back to the core basics of the game. You know, you no one's bigger than the team, there's no airs and graces, uh, and they speak very much to their environments, right?

Speaker 1 12:21

Um, yeah, but yeah, and I think no, but I think it's brilliant because I think there is stuff around identities, environments, the fact you look at both of those clubs at the moment, both play the game still quite differently, but both do it effectively again to show there isn't a one-way or one size fits all approach to it. But funny what you're saying about Leicester, because I I felt even driving in the car park that that's how it needed to be. You almost sensed the history there, that actually you need to be really on it today. And when I was just even watching some of the juniors train or having a wander round and speaking to coaches before we spoke to parents, it was what you've said there, that this is just draft, it's hard work, it's it's about doing things well. The buildings reflected that as well. There was nothing, and actually, I still think there's something really powerful in that because actually a lot of those things that that you picked up from there our young people still need today, don't they? You you need some of those things in amongst everything else.

Speaker 13:28

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, to sort of, I mean, the thing that always resonates with me, there are two things that popped into my mind when you were talking there about the training ground at Oval Park in Leicester, um, was two things. One was there is a sign outside the training ground. I don't know whether it's still there, it's been a long time. You know, I live in Bath now. It's been a long time since I got back. But it used to say really simply, there was a Leicester logo and it just said, Welcome to work on it. You know, that was the mantra that you approached your day. As soon as you walked through that door, you were working, right? And the fun and um maybe that's the the wrong way of putting it, but I suppose that's the way I felt about it at the time is that all the sort of uh it was it was professional. As soon as you walked through that door, it was professional. Everything else you know happened outside of the training ground, um, letting your hair down, you know, social interactions, all that I don't know, all that type of stuff. But when you turned up to training, it was a professional focus on every you know, every aspect of the of the day. And and there was something about going through the gates that I always remember thinking, you know, no matter what was going on in my life, how I feeling, thoughts I was dealing with, um you know, things that may be happening, external influences, forces that may be acting upon me. As soon as I went through the those gates at Oval Park, the Green Gates, um it was about being in work and everything else got got pushed to the back and it was an interesting mindset to have because obviously it then meant harder, you know, as I moved through various different struggles in my with my life, I suppose an illness I was diagnosed with colitis when I was 25, um, injuries, all sorts of stuff. It's actually it made it harder probably to talk openly about that type of stuff. Because you were almost trying to, for the right reasons, repress everything else that was going on, turn up in a professional with a professional mindset to do a job and then to leave and then address that again. So you didn't take anyone down with you, didn't distract anyone. Um but obviously you know, when I reflect on it now, it's like would it have been better beneficial to be able to share the struggles and the concerns that you're having? Yes, yes, it would have been 100% if I had someone that I felt I could have gone to. But I I suppose it inevitably I you always find your way of coping and managing. And the way I found actually eventually was after having sort of not dealt with speaking about my ostrative colitis, which is bowel disease, ultimately I decided that I had to speak to someone about it. And I spoke to my coach, who was John Wells at the time, someone I massively respected and still do as a coach. Um and I thought I needed to speak to him, having not spoken to him for about a year and a half, losing blood, losing weight, um, constantly being in discomfort and that adding that discomfort and that um need to be sort of five feet from a loo at any given time, because otherwise that might be too far. He obviously added layers and layers of stress, which then amplified the effects itself, you know, of the illness. Um and as soon as I told Welsey, um he shared that actually he had something similar and it sort of alleviated all that stress, and we just spoke and talked and and then I thought I could tell other people and it it it lifted the the weight of worry and anxiety and stress around people knowing it being embarrassing, talking about your toilet habits, um it being another reason I want to be picked, and actually as soon as he knew it just made life easier. So um I thought I share that because I'm just reflecting on the environment and actually knowing the world that I operate in now, the environments that we create for our people are so important. Um you know, people talk about psychological safety, Gordon, don't they? And you know that you know, the need to be able to sort of speak up um without the fear of being shot down, ridiculed, humiliated is really important and actually allowing those young guys the space to do that. I suppose the environment I came, the year at the time I grew up in. Initially that that wasn't really possible, I suppose. Um but I think the game has has changed massively, thankfully, now I can't remember why I got onto that.

Speaker 1 17:50

Yeah, I think you've I mean, I think you've well I we we we had a feeling we might go off on a few tangents. Yeah, sorry. I think there's lots of things though that we're talking about that are still important for everybody working in the in that youth space or sports parents to understand because I think you touched on fun and enjoyment there. You talked about environment um and relationships, you talked about actually, you know, now we know a little bit more about what maybe healthy relationships can look like. I think the challenge everybody's got is joining up the dots based on our own experiences, where we are today, merging the best with the past with what we know now to make the best future. Because I think you also see a lot of narratives where people jump too far off the other end, yeah, where they want to take it to one extreme. And actually, all of the things you're probably talking about there are all in balance. What's happened is we've gone from polar opposites, yeah, and actually, do you know what? Not every element of performance sports going to be fun. Yeah. You know, I'll say that with kids. It can't be, you know, it's not fun if you get injured, it's not fun if you're not selected, it's not fun if you don't get the playing time you want, it's not fun necessarily. You probably loved it watching you play preseason training, but that isn't fun. But actually, we want them to enjoy it because we want them to enjoy the good bits which we all do. But actually, I want you to enjoy some of the challenge, some of the adversity, some of the stuff you're going to do and come out of the other side. And I think that that whole fun enjoyment piece, I still think it's the same with coaching that there's a time to be dictatorial, because there is, there's a time and a place where you say we're just doing this because that's what we're doing. That's what's happening, and but I still and obviously there's a time and a place where we're getting a lot more feedback and we're having that relationship side, and it's about finding the ultimate balance for me between all of those things, and I think that's where the challenge is. So it's working in that grey area, isn't it, for everybody?

Speaker 19:55

Yeah, I think I like what you said there about those extremes because it's really easy when a new thing comes in to just go with it and take it to the absolute and totally you know, poo-poo anything that's gone before. That's all the past is irrelevant, and actually, we can take so much learning from the past, can't we? You know, and I always think coaching is you know, there's no there's no new idea, is there? It's just a regurgitation of something that has been done before in in the way that the coach of now wants to do it.

Speaker 1 20:23

So I mean, I tracked something back, Lewis. This was funny. I was tracking something back, original concepts, and I was playing around with it. I can't uh goodness knows how I had the time to do this, and I can't remember what it was, but I ended up seeing about eight people during the 1900s and up to the present day who'd had a similar idea, similar concept, but sold it in a slightly different way. And then I think I got it back to some Greek philosopher who'd originally came out with it, but we're not giving credit to Aristotle at any point for the new thing. And everybody's like, oh yeah, well, this is new. But I do think there's a there's a real danger at the moment, and we're certainly seeing this in the in the sports world, is people are struggling to find that balance, the the medium between everything we've learned, what we've seen, how we use it, what's appropriate, which brings us nicely on to raising young people. Yeah, because you and I, in supporting our own young performers, but I also having from in in my work speaking to a lot of sports parents, some of those key underlying messages of the past, no matter what is still changing in society around them, still need to exist when it comes to performance. So we can't completely go and meet them and say, oh, everything's just going to be wonderful because you've decided or that this is it. We it there's a real balance between doing it in the most healthy way possible, but also not selling our kids short as well with the with the realities of the world.

Speaker 22:00

Yeah, absolutely. I would I'm a hundred percent on board with that in terms of you know the environment going two way one way, you know, going too far one way, one way or the other, and especially around the sort of enjoyment and fun piece. And you know, it should be you should enjoy what you do, whatever aspect of life it is that you're doing it, but that doesn't mean that it's not going to be hard. That doesn't mean that you're not at times gonna feel low, frustrated, disappointed, depressed, even, you know. Um but as as you said, as long as the environment allows you to um manage, so if it's you know, if you are getting really low, that you know there is someone or a space that you can go to for support, you know. I think we all struggle at some stage in life, if not at many stages. Um, and and knowing that we've got a supportive network around us that can uh that will be there when we need them is huge, whether it's parental, um you know, partner, coach, um, and and providing an environment that what that is right for that is is key. But also, you know, what you said really resonated with me around you know, it's not always gonna be fun. That is the reality. And if you want to be uh a high achieving sports person in in whatever field that is, there are gonna be times when it is just out and out hard and frustrating. You know, my son has just gone through a six-month window of injuries, only 16. And and that was hard. And there are times during it, I'm sure, you know, he felt, oh, you know what, why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? And my job, I see my job as a parent is just to provide support for him, you know, somewhere where he can let out that frustration and provide maybe encouragement um to help him see that it's not the end of the world and that he will get through it, and actually that when he does get through it, he will be so much better for it. Yeah, and and those lessons in life that we we learn around the struggle. I think certainly if I think about my career, Gordon, from a sporting point of view, you know, and if I took the World Cup triumph in 2003 as an example of that, and everyone would probably think, oh, they'll see that and it must be the best thing in the world. And obviously that was, you know, achieving achieving that was everything I ever wanted to do in a rugby jersey. But the immediate feeling after that, sitting in the change room when the initial euphoria is gone and and you've done you know everything you wanted to do at the age of 25, you're sat in the change room, there is an absolute numbness that comes with that. Because you now think, what the hell, what comes next? What the hell comes next? And the reality I think that I came to, and this might sound a bit cheesy, but it's my reality, is that what I fundamentally enjoyed more than anything else was the journey itself, and the journey wound its way through so many different paths of enjoyment in terms of you know, form playing really well and nailing nailing my position in the team being dropped because I wasn't playing well enough and out and out having a shocker and learning that what I needed to do to improve it and the conversations I could have didn't have to be stressful or or angry, could be just about okay, how do I get better coach and what are the things I need to do? And he can tell me directly and understanding that feedback, you know, and how I receive it and how he gives it in a way that lands for me, yeah, and that I take it in a way that he wants to give it to me again so that I can keep improving. Um, dealing with you know, dealing with illness, the whole process of lifting that trophy, the most enjoyable bit, you know, all was the journey to get there and all the struggles that you had to go through. And it when I when I realized that it very quickly made me realize that all I want to do is be on the road again to that, you know, to that next journey. So be on that next journey and and finding how I need to improve to get to another World Cup or whatever it might be. So, so yeah, what am I trying to say in a very long-winded way that you know, in in sport as in maybe life, you know, the failure and success are intertwined and actually are really important. Without a shadow of doubt, I learned more from my failings than I ever did from my successes. And and I like to describe my first ever challenge outside of rugby was going taking on a ultramarathon in the Arctic with a friend of mine who's a polar explorer, and and and I got frostbite and I didn't finish it, which never even crossed my mind. I was like, physical challenge, there's no way I won't be able to finish it. Um and and I look back on that now as my successful failure because what that taught me was that I wasn't disciplined enough around my own personal admin, and I allowed my fingers to be in the cold too long. But that failure meant the next time I went into a cold environment, I didn't make the same mistake again. And I've now been to the North Pole, the South Pole, and various other places. So the learning could come from that.

Speaker 1 27:10

And I I th I think when you you know, when you're talking and you you're linking all this together, I think about our parenting, I think about young people, their sport. You know, we've got to enjoy the journey as we're going through it. And and I think we can always be guilty as parents, sometimes looking at the next thing rather than enjoying with our kids the here and now, particularly those that are maybe achieving um at a young age. I think what's interesting for me, spending a lot of time with teenagers at the moment and chatting to them about their sport and getting it through their eyes is that when you point out some of the realities like you've just pointed out, or I've pointed out, they're really, really grateful. They actually say, thanks, Gordon, thanks for being honest with me. Thanks for telling me that it's not always going to be perfect, thanks for telling me that I'm not always gonna be brilliant, thanks for telling me that all these things are gonna happen. And actually, they're pleased that nobody, because we're not trying to dress it up, you're trying to help them understand what it may look like so they're prepared and thinking about how they're going to navigate, you know, that journey that they're on. We're doing a better picture of painting the picture for them as opposed to um hiding it away. And I think even it goes as far as in the development of young people, even that thing you were saying there about feedback from coaches. I think with a bit of humility in young people as well, that means you've got to be open to feedback and criticism, particularly in the world of sport. Now, it doesn't mean you have to take it or use it, but I think you have to be open to it. And I think sometimes young people today even find feedback really tough. You know, people what we would have deemed as coaching, they're just taking as a a personal slight or criticism, and it isn't. It's it's it's giving them some feedback, and we've got to help them with with all of that, that these things are gonna come at you.

Speaker 29:14

Yeah, I give that, you know, giving and feed, giving and receiving feedback's a skill, isn't it? It's like sometimes I think um as parents, we we often operate in the tell zone, don't we? Because as parents there's this sort of authority bias, rightly, you know, we are the adults, we're trying to bring these young people into the world and and give them the skills and tools for life. And but I tell you what, I've learned more than anything as a parent is is that there's so much wisdom in my kids. And if I'm really prepared to listen to it and not always be the sort of the the dick the dictator is um you know, is really listening to what my kids have got to say. They have given me sort of more advice because they have this like unencumbered view on life, don't they? They have this anything is possible sort of view. And my, you know, my adult brain is is has got so much sort of information and you know, bias and and learned behaviors and experiences that form all of my you know thinking and decisions, whereas they've got none of that at the minute. So, you know, honestly, when I was struggling post-retirement and and not even that long ago, I actually went to my kids and and we're having a conversation in the car. Um, some of the best journeys I ever have are in the car with my kids, you know, just talking about anything and anything nonsense sometimes. But I remember sharing one of the lessons I think I've learned as a parent is actually rather than asking lots of questions, which probably feel like a pressure situation sometimes, especially if it's related to sport or performance or education, or I think is if we just share something about our life or our situation with our kids, they often have an insight that you've never even considered, right? Because we're stuck in our own thinking.

Speaker 1 31:04

Yeah.

Speaker 31:04

And I remember my my son once said and I shared this whole reel of things that were going on for me, and he's went, Dad, why don't you just choose one thing? Just choose one thing and do that. I was like, that makes complete amount of sense. I mean, what he what he was picking up on as a probably a 14 or 15 year old was that I'd become overwhelmed with everything I'd taken on at that time in my life, and just dad just picked one thing. I was like, but you need someone else sometimes to to see those things for you, don't they? But yeah, the what you know, parenting has has has taught me more lessons than anything in life. And those car conversations, I think, have been really pivotal in my learning. I had a conversation with Dylan, my eldest once, and we we what I'm interested. So so after a game, invariably we get in the car, and and as a parent, I I really want to know how he's getting on and how he feels he's done, and you know, there's probably a sort of uh unconscious or underlying thought process going on in my mind, is that you know, I see the things that he could have done better as a human, we always want to improve, don't we? So, what are the areas of development? And I'm probably thinking, I wonder whether he's noticed it, is he going to share it with me? And I noticed the more and more conversations we had in the car, the less and less he spoke to me. And I remember at one stage, I can't remember who I spoke to. Might have been Rich Shorter. Have you come across Rich Shorter? Yeah, yeah. I think Rich said something to me, and he said, Have you ever asked him if he enjoys or what he wants to talk about in the car? I was like, I know, I haven't actually. So I just remember asking him, I was like, mate, do you mind me asking you questions after a game? And he was like, Dad, I'd rather you didn't. I feel like I feel I'm under pressure to give an answer or something that you need to hear. I was like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. I was like, I'm so sorry. And from that moment on, you know, we have much more productive conversations. And as a parent, I realize my unconscious sort of the unconscious pressure I'm applying without even without even understanding. But having those conversations with your kids was was well, it's just yeah, it's just eye-opening and and and so important for me to learn as an individual.

Speaker 1 33:13

Yeah, and I think I mean you've you've explained it beautifully, all our histories, the things we want to do naturally protective as parents, if we've been involved in sport or we think we understand it, that we're our coaching hats go on. Yeah, you know, the research does say in an ideal world your child would lead the conversation. Because actually, you know, one of the traits of high performers later on is also their ability to evaluate performance. Well, they can only do that if we give them the space to talk about it. If we're just you know, if we're just filling it the world according to Lewis and Gordon, it's going to be you know tricky for them. And I've I've certainly learned that over the years with my two. But I think that ability, we're spending a lot of time with teenage parents, like work with them, talk to them, you know, about what you need before, what you need after. You know, because again, every child's different, isn't it? Same when you're trying to get them to a game, some will want silence, some will want music, some will want to talk about the sport, some won't want to talk about the sport, some will want to watch something, but you need to know your kid, and you also need to know your kid afterwards. Some parents do have brilliant chats with their kids about their sport afterwards. They become really comfortable. For some, it's the biggest minefield in the world and the worst possible time. The kids want to talk about it, but they just don't want to talk about it then because they want food, they want a shower, they want sleep, they want time to process it. And I think it's all about all of our self-awareness, like we've openly chatted about already today, is being more self-aware about how we're supporting other people. And I think the big bit of that is we've probably got to be able to listen a little bit more than we want to.

Speaker 34:57

And listening's hard sometimes, isn't it? Because we've, you know, we've I I was doing something on active listening the other day, and it was, you know, it was eye-opening when I had a conversation with uh with our coaches at the time around, you know, our perceptions of listening. You know, when we have a conversation, you know, we presume what we've said has been heard, but actually what's going on in the other person's mind, we've got no idea, right? So they might be taking in all their previous history, learned behaviors, you know, and all that type of stuff. And also they may be thinking about where they want the conversation to go. So, you know, they may not be hearing what we're saying at all. So that listening skill is really so important, especially the basic, basically, like I've just done that.

Speaker 1 35:42

How am I what am I going to say next? Listening to reply, nodding and smiling, which is just really freaky. And none of them are particularly good listening traits. And actually, I should be saying to Lewis, Lewis, this is what you've just said to me, and I've been hooked on every word. Do you agree? Am I right?

Speaker 36:00

But but that's the that's the beauty of it, isn't it? It's like you, I suppose it's slightly different in this framework because as the host of a podcast, you have areas of content that you want to cover, and I'll waffle on for bloody ages unless you actually stop me and direct me. Um, but the the whole that uh that opened my world up when I understood the different sort of the different ways in which we listen and the way we approach conversations is that actually someone may not have heard what I've said at all, yet I will presume they have. And if they don't, I may get frustrated if then they don't respond in a certain way. So actually, you know, really asking questions. You know, you talked about the kids and actually really asking what our kids want. You know, what do you need from me after the game? I just need a bit of space to listen to the headphones, you know, which we probably that's not just a conversation with a kid, you know, whether it's with our partners or you know, what do you want from me at bedtime? My wife loves to talk to me at bedtime. I just want to switch off, disengage my brain, maybe put a TV on. Um, you know, so really listening, having the ability to ask a question and actually listen to what is said, it it's not easy because we've got so much else going on in our brain all the time. But um, yeah, but no, I certainly I certainly wasn't judging you at all there, Gordon.

Speaker 1 37:14

Yeah, I think and and I think the parenting one again, you know, you hear these bits, there's obviously sensitive periods, car journeys immediately after games. There's obviously times where we need to discuss with our kids work with them, but it still also goes back to that bit. We can take that too far, can't we? Yeah, because at some point, Lewis Moody's experience and something that Lewis Moody knows actually is right because Lewis knows it's right, we are then meant to say it. You get people who then say, oh no, let them work it. No, hang on, I'm gonna say this because it needs to be it needs to be said. But I think it's the timing of those dialogues and how we put them together, isn't it? And maybe your storytelling one is a good one earlier, particularly with teenagers. We can sit them in front of something, tell them a story, watch something from the sporting world, and then engage in some form of dialogue discussion. It may be better than us just piling in and saying it, but we may still need to say it.

Speaker 38:18

No, the awareness of of the environment, the time, and the space to have those conversations. I think, yeah, I think that's a really valuable point, Gordon. Um, there was something that just crept into my head and it's immediately disappeared as obviously the result of 16 years of ARP means that I can never remember anything. But uh, what were you talking about?

Speaker 1 38:37

You're saying uh yeah, well, I was just talking about the the timing of those things, but also that your experiences that there's a time where you are just gonna call out your kids and tell them because you're you're allowed to do we are allowed to do that. I think we've got to be careful we don't become um too, oh yeah, no, complete autonomy or no feedback or too happy. I use the word happy clappy, which is a bit unfair, but I think we've got to be careful it doesn't get too happy clappy in this thinking. It's a it's a mixture of the two, isn't it?

Speaker 39:09

Yeah. And and there's you know, I like the feedback. The feedback thing always resonates with me because I think it's it's a real skill that we need to learn and acquire, not only how to give it, but how to receive it in a way that you know someone will because you know what is feedback? To me, the intent of feedback is for us all to improve. Therefore, in my mind, really negative feedback it isn't a thing because it's only it's only negative if it's delivered in the way that is confrontational or meant to be blame, you know, it's just pointing out the fact that someone did something wrong. What is the use of that? So it you know, blame is unhelpful, as praises sometimes. You know, if you're gonna give feedback, positive feedback, give it, you know, you did you handed in that piece of coursework on time, which is amazing, which means it de-stresses me because I'm not gonna be hassling you for it, you know, give a specific piece of feedback or or the same with something that needs to improve, is you know, yeah.

Speaker 1 40:07

How can you go about it? Because I think that frustrates young people, doesn't it? Well, you need to get better at this, but actually they need the next bit. How?

Speaker 40:14

Yeah, yeah, that's it. And that's how that feedback always, you know, always should be specific. You know, it's not you did that wrong, don't do it again.

Speaker 1 40:22

Yeah.

Speaker 40:23

Oh, okay. How do I, how do I not do it again? Like you didn't give me any information in there. So, you know, for me it's always about being being specific and the intent, someone never intends. If we're talking about sports people, no one intends to go out and make a mistake. So let's say I dropped a ball five times in a game. I would hope one of my teammates came up to me and meant, Lewis, I've noticed you've you've made a couple of handling errors there. I've also noticed that your hands have been low. So, what about if next time the ball comes, do you have your hands ready?

unknown 40:53

Yeah.

Speaker 40:53

Try that and see if it works, see if it makes a difference. To me, that's that's really specific feedback that deals with the issue that I've been making errors, but gives me a way of moving it forward, you know. And and I suppose then with feedback in in the real world around you know, office space and stuff, understanding the people, and that we're all different, in that you know, some people will appreciate direct feedback, some people won't. Yeah, but you need to know the different type of human being, and then you need to be able to deliver it in a way that is suitable for them, you know. So some people might need time to process information, they won't want to give you a direct answer.

Speaker 1 41:31

So, yeah, some don't mind being called out in a group, others like to be done one-to-one, don't they? It it's it's all that it's all that coaching stuff, isn't it? I think you I think there's quite a few young people that I'm seeing do just struggle. They they they can perceive it as criticism. Yeah, you know, it's not coming from me. I'm I'm just talking generally about their sport with them. I'm not coaching them, but I think they can perceive it as criticism, and then you sort of think, oh my goodness, you know, is this society playing its part on this for you? Is technology playing a part? Because actually, if you're coming into sport, if everybody's trying to make you better, then actually you're gonna get feedback. It's it's coaching, it's not, it's not an act on you as a person or anything.

Speaker 42:17

Yeah, that's but that for me is because no one ever talks about feedback, giving and receiving feed. No one says that the intent of feedback is to for us all to improve. So when we share it, we're we're gonna share it in this way. Um, firstly, we're gonna get to know you and really understand how you like to receive feedback, and where possible, we're gonna give it to you in that format. But sometimes when we're playing sport, feedback comes really quickly and in the moment, and actually sharing that with our young people or athletes or or colleagues, whatever it might be, is that if I'm sharing something in the speed of the moment, in the heat of the moment, it's not it's not, it's it's only to make move us forward, and it's not a slight or a critical, or it's not a reflection on you as an individual, it's just to help us improve. I suppose that if we share what the intent of feedback is and that it's going to be delivered and you're gonna receive it as a young person, um, and some of it may seem critical or negative because it's highlighting the things that you need to improve on. Yeah. Um, and there was a study done by Harvard, I think, which talked about talked about when we're giving feedback, I forget the name of the study now, but it talked about um the the type of feedback that we get, you know, whether it's positive or developmental, so you know, and what ratio it should come in. And I always think when I when I read it, I was like, oh, okay, I don't know whether I agree with it and trying to.

Speaker 1 43:42

Was that was that was that the 80 20 one?

Speaker 43:45

Um the ratio of six to one. So if that's eighty twenty.

Speaker 1 43:50

No, six, six, six, yeah, okay. We're still talking quite high, positive to negative, aren't we?

Speaker 43:56

Exactly, exactly that. And I was like, when I heard it, especially coming from Leicester in terms of Of the environment back at the start of our conversation. I mean, it would have been a hundred percent the other way around if there was any positive feedback whatsoever. So when I heard that, my my own biases were like, oh, that doesn't make sense to me at all. Because as a human, I just want to keep improving, improving, improving, improving. And then, you know, to your point earlier, that means we never celebrate success, we don't focus on the things that we've actually done well. So, what this study was saying is actually humans need to be reminded that they are doing things really well, and the majority of the time focus on because in a game, the number of things I do well would vastly outweigh the number of things I need to improve on. Yet as a human and as coaching, they would focus on the one thing that needs to improve rather than the thousand things I did brilliantly. So after I reflected on it a bit, it did make sense. And it was they they they call it a six to one ratio of positive to developmental feedback. Um, and I suppose the way I look at that is like, okay, but do you know what that's a nice framework to look at. So when I approach giving feedback, well, I coach my kids under 14s, and I try and constantly give the positive stuff that they are doing well, constantly building them up, want to help them improve and get better and get better and better. And then hopefully that allows me when there's something that needs to be improved on, the opportunity to go, right? Here's a chance for us to learn. Yeah, what happened there? So it has it has definitely informed the way that I've gone about my my sports coaching, and just give me a new view. Because if I'd approached it with a Leicester mentality, I would have been right, that's wrong, that's wrong, that's wrong, what are you doing there? And it would have all been, and I hope I'm not painting a negative picture there because obviously we were a very successful team as Leicester, yeah, and that side is arguably that's what we needed, and in that environment, that's what we needed, yeah. But taking my lessons from that environment and what I know now, and your point about balance is how do I merge those two to be a better coach now. And I suppose that's what I'm trying to learn and constantly evolve.

Speaker 1 46:13

But I think that I think that what you talk about feedback from parents as well is we we have got to find some strength. Because, as you say, it's so easy to watch your kids, yeah, not really watch the ball, not really watch everything else that's going on in the game, and then just pick up all of their little technical deficiencies, decisions, emotions, way they've handled stuff, particularly those people who've been played sport themselves or have got some idea that actually we miss the reality of any given situation. And like you say, I think that's a really good self-awareness piece, and I've got better, just like you have with that with my kids, is got to find some strengths in here as well. Can't just sit there and just assume that the strengths are gonna be there, and then actually all I'm gonna pick on is the things that need to improve. It's almost like you just become, oh well, I just expect the good bits to be good. Yeah, but actually that's right, that's wrong, and that's not realistic, and that's not how you support performers, really, or certainly not how you support young performers in certain environments. So I think it's a good lesson there for all of us in got to balance it out as well, your feedback.

Speaker 47:23

Yeah, and bits are both. And as you're talking it then leads me on to the sort of the caveat, not a caveat, not is not the right word, but there's also something in there around I've learned from my son recently, my youngest son, is that he's very different, that my boys are very different. And if I he he actually he's gonna sometimes um he finds it hard to receive um positive feedback. And one thing I've really learned from him is that if you give him positive feedback because you're trying to support his emotional response to uh maybe him feeling like he hasn't played that well. You're like, oh mate, good game, well done, thought you did brilliantly. I mean, that false praise is could be as negative as you know trying to trying to pick out on the improvements and things.

Speaker 1 48:19

So that was a real lesson to me is actually that let not treating them, not treating our kids like kids, I think is maybe the right way of putting it is because or fools, Lewis, because we've had that we had that last we had this, yeah. We had this last week when I said to the kids, when are your mum and dad at the best and the worst in a in a topper environment? And the kids said they're at the worst when they tell me that it's gone well, when I know full well it hasn't, just made me feel better.

Speaker 48:48

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 48:49

I'm not stupid, what they're doing. Can you can you tell them? Can you tell them from me that this is a nightmare? I hate it.

Speaker 48:55

Well, I'll I'll do my best, I'll check and plot it in. Comes back to your point about timing, doesn't it? Is knowing when is the right time, and actually sometimes silence is as important as anything else, you know, and knowing that actually, you know, kids' emotions as well, any of our emotions, you know, if we did. I just think back to when I was playing. If I played badly in a game and I was frustrated with myself afterwards, that would come out emotionally. And if someone tried to go, oh mate, don't worry, you had a good game, I was like, no, no, I didn't. Or it's it's I think people would do it for the right reason because they want us to they don't want us to feel disappointed, but actually that's an important part of the learning curve. And I've really I suppose I've relearned that actually that's really important for our kids as well, and knowing that whatever way they need to let off their emotions, frustrations, happiness, disappointments after a game, it's okay as long as it's not detrimental to anyone else. Yeah. If it's just them going to their room and venting, or if it's you know, shouting at us or getting emotional, that listening that you talked about, just being able to absorb it silently and know when's the right time and not let our emotions consume us and then add to the sort of emotional overload.

Speaker 1 50:09

Yeah, I mean it's become fascinating in sport and and you think around the world, your typical match days, you send your kids out into the world to compete. They generally play, they come back, they're physically, emotionally, mentally tired. I don't know how you are. I'm knackered. I was always knackered after coaching young players or even watching my own kids. Not that I've verbalized it, but I've lived every moment, every interaction, every feeling. In no other walk of life would we put those two human beings back together and say, Do you know what? We're now going to pick the bones out of that.

Speaker 50:43

Yeah.

Speaker 1 50:43

Yeah, it's almost become a pre-programmed. This is what we must do in sport. And even at the very top levels, like you say, there, there is a really sensitive period, probably 45 minutes an hour after competition, where actually everybody within that system probably needs their own space, whether that be a young player, whether that be a coach, whether that be a parent, just get out of there and give yourself some time to gather some perspective. Because if we pile in at that stage, we're we're in all kinds of trouble.

Speaker 51:18

Yeah, Gordon, what that's a really good that I mean, that really shouts to self-awareness, doesn't it? It's how do I sense my emotions rising or something happening in my body that means I now need to step away from this rather than lean into it. And actually, that's really difficult to understand if we've been programmed for a long time to respond to those emotions. I'm doing a course at the minute on physical intelligence, which is fascinating. I'd highly recommend it if um if anyone's listening to this. But it's it's about every thought, feeling, emotion, action we have, having a chemical response in our body that on a cellular level can can leave a marker that would be called a somatic marker. And those somatic markers are what people refer to as core beliefs in you know, NLP and various other stuff. But to me, I suddenly like, oh okay, I'm putting a language to what I've understood in my sporting life, you know, the emotions, the feelings, the thoughts, the actions, and and how I'm responding to them now. But actually, what it should really shouted to is just a greater understanding of our own physiology because if we understand how we respond to certain situations, we can then, as you've just highlighted, be able to step out of that. I'm I sense something happening in my body. It's a response to maybe it's frustration, maybe it's anger, maybe it's embarrassment. What do I need to do with it to make the situation better or or an improve the outcome? And invariably it's you know, it's step away, it's take a breath, it's distract ourselves, it's so that we can access the the the rational part of our brain that allows us to make decent decisions. They I I heard it referred to as system one and system two thinking, and it's like that system one is the emotional overload, which is it Steve Peters in the Yeah, chimp paradox.

Speaker 1 53:09

So the one the one of the big topics that I think is integral for all of us, and we have it through our sessions, is recognizing and managing the chimp. Yes. Now, if you're a coach and you've got a parent firing the late night email full of Sauvignon Blanc at you, or you've got a parent coming after you after a game, and you know what's coming, you have to recognise that as a coach, and you're probably going to need to buy some time, and it's probably now not going to be a good time to weaken every relationship in front of other players, other parents, other people around, and everybody needs space. But likewise, if you're a parent and feeling like that, before you maybe hit that go on that email, or you go and have that confrontation, if you recognize it, you can actually just maybe write the email, not send it, walk away, give yourself some space, and then we can have something more like a rational conversation about what it is that's going on. But you're right, I suppose I never thought about it. It's purely a self-awareness thing from everybody in the system because look, sport's highly emotive, isn't it? It is. We're not going to be able to take that out of it.

Speaker 54:22

Yeah, it's everything, it's everything in one place at any given time. And those parents that come with those emails or those emotions after a game, they're they're coming from the right place, which is protection of their child or you know, wanting their child, and it's just as you said, but it's understanding that there is a time and place to do that in a manner that elicits an outcome and a conversation that is beneficial rather than utterly toxic, which is only gonna, you know, in those emotional states, is only ever going to go wrong. You know, I had a moment on the field where I really found out about myself, which was getting sent off. I became the first Englishman ever to be sent off at Twickenham, which is ridiculous when you think of the horrible human beings that played for England. I think I was pretty decent though.

Speaker 1 55:08

Yeah, that's wrong, isn't it? There's something wrong, there's something wrong in that sense, isn't there? That's not right.

Speaker 55:14

But it taught me so much about myself because I had from the environment I came up in Leicester, I didn't, you know, I saw not being able to deal with my own mental weaknesses or my struggles, you know, as weakness itself. And and that was so naive because so when I had this instant, I got sent off. I lost my head basically. A friend of mine got taken out in the air, and then he got punched in the face. And then uh and I reacted um instinctively, as you know, my sort of character, my sort of key characteristics are around protection, loyalty, and you know, and you know, looking after my teammates. So when I saw that happen, I just emotionally responded. And there'd been a layer of things that had built up that meant I responded quicker because there were late hits, cheap shots, and all sorts of stuff that had been going on in the game that had been building up this sort of layer of unfairness, and then this thing happens, and I'm like, what? No one's doing anything about it, right? I'm sorting this out. And I I threw about 30 punches, I think. But anyway, I I rightly got sent off the field, and I then had to explore afterwards through a bit of um cajoling from my yeah, people supportive people around me who who challenged me in the right way and said, you know, I think there's something that you may need to deal with here. And I was like, no, no, no, no, it's absolutely nothing wrong with me. I'm perfectly not and the more I delved at the more I thought, well, do you know what? Okay, I'm gonna explore it. And as soon as I did, it made me it made me realize that the manifesto that the manifestation of frustration from not being from being injured, not being able to play, from from a sense of unfairness that had been layering up in the game, from all sorts of things came out on the field in violent acts. And all of those layers that built up, you know, when I wasn't playing, from being annoyed about not someone else stepping in and being in my spot, would I get it back? Will I be playing good enough? Um, how do I claw my way back into the team? And then when unfairness happens on the pitch, the ref's not dealing with it, it's continuing bah, just all layers on top, and that emotion comes out in a physical act. As soon as I recognized that, once I saw a psychologist, sports psychologist, I suddenly had the tools to be able to manage it. And I never got another yellow card, despite that point being the most yellow carded player. That's not true. John O was the most yellow carded player, the second most yellow carded player at Leicester. I never had another yellow card or a red card, and it was purely because they the psychologist allowed me to see what was going on inside my own mind, and and that I could choose to lean into that when it arose in a game, as it would do, because people would try and trigger me from that point on because they thought I'd have a weakness. Um, or I could step away from it. And he gave he just, you know, that we went through some really simple techniques that allowed me to step away from my emotions and manage my my thinking in the game. But unless we're prepared to explore those avenues, then we'll never know, right? Because the that sort of um human condition of we, you know, we don't know what we don't know, yeah, and and we think we know everything. So unless we try something, we're not gonna know any better.

Speaker 1 58:30

And I definitely think I definitely think there's that. I think there's two things there. You've said I had a couple of weeks ago where I ended up uh just having a bit of time off because there was just too much going on, and actually you suddenly doubted everything. I'm thinking, well, the more I read, the more I learn, the less I know.

Speaker 58:48

Yeah.

Speaker 1 58:48

And then you suddenly think, oh, well, this is mad. Well, and then it's like, well, what you're comparing this against? That you you know, are you you're taking on, you know, new forms of artificial intelligence here, or you're taking on, you know, that compared to the rest of the world or who you're talking to, because it just becomes overpowering. But I think if you're open to that learning, and I think certainly I've found this with sports parents who I think are massively open to support when you talk to them, is that actually all you're doing is creating pictures that get them to consider a lot of the things we've spoken about today. Yeah, their self-awareness, is it actually being that impactful? Is it being beneficial, or is there another way? Or have we just become programmed to, oh well, this is what we we see on the TV in sports, I'll just copy and paste it with my kids, or this is what my parents did with me, and my coaches did with me. Well, I'll copy and use it now. And actually, if you can bring all of that to life in different formats and accept that there's going to be different ways, there's no one size fits all, but we're all working together to find what's best for you and your child. Actually, everybody's pretty happy with that. They enjoy it because there's there's no there's no real threat in that. We're just we're just trying to make sense of what's a really difficult job. And you know how difficult sports parenting is.

Speaker 1:00:11

It is, yeah. No, I think you I I think you you covered that brilliantly there. I think it is just uh, you know, it's a mind field, but our intent as parents, as long as we understand, you know, what what is the intent of what we're doing, then hopefully we'll have much better outcomes. But the self-awareness piece cannot be overstated, is often, you know, there's a there's a great quote, and I'll see if I remember it, because as I'm highlighting, you know, my memory isn't the best. And it's something, it's something like uh you can't solve a problem with the same thinking that created it. And you know, so if we're can't solve a problem with the same thing, so you know, we're because we're stuck in our mind the whole time. So self-awareness is actually really difficult difficult to access sometimes because we're stuck in our own thinking. So but if we can be aware that we need to be open and listen without um you know, feeling like we need to be judged or comparing ourselves to other things, but just confident with what we know, open to new learnings, that we can pick the bits that we need out of rather than to go, as you said, let's start whole scale from one place to another. Yeah, well, so we're not drill-based anymore, we're just like game, game education. We're not, you know, it's never never one or the other, is it? Always, as you say, and the same, the same for me with parenting is okay, what do I take from the brilliant parenting I got from my parents? What are the bits that were really useful and beneficial to me? And what didn't work, and then what else is out there? Um, from my own lived and learned experience and and my own kids, and they're very different to how I was as a human being. And how what do they actually need from me as a parent? So all those learnings come together, sort of form, and we hope we end up doing a reasonable job at the end of it, and they turn out into you know, good, well-rounded human beings.

Speaker 1 1:02:03

Yeah, and I think, and and I think you, I mean, again, you you know, I think you've summed that up brilliantly as well, in terms of making sense of how we parent the the best bits, what's worked. But I think there's a key bit in that is that we've got to understand our kids, their motivations, their goals, what they're trying to do. And the beauty of that is what worked for Lewis Moody may not work for Dylan and Ethan. What worked for Gordon McClellan certainly doesn't work for Archie and Pipper. Uh, not at the moment, anyway, in the difficult, difficult uh ages they're at. Some of it might, and they might admit it in time, but actually, just because it worked for me and you, and we think of the generation we played in, or the coaches we had and some of the environments we probably encountered, doesn't mean that it's necessarily gonna work for them, and we've got to try and make sense of that for them and help them.

Speaker 1:02:56

I think that's a really, really valid point. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 1:03:01

I think I do know what I almost think we we should call it a day on the podcast now, because I think I don't know if we're gonna, I don't know if we're gonna sort of beat the summary any better than that. Because I think, in effect, what we've said is, well, we're all part of it, our kids. Um, we need to understand our kids, take what we've learned and the experiences we've had, work with what they need now, where we are today, and how do we ultimately um give ourselves the best shot of, as you say, helping our kids uh what I use fulfill their potential both in and out of their sport, and you described as being brilliant, rounded human beings. I think that's uh uh a lovely way to finish this podcast, I think.

Speaker 1:03:43

And I'll add one last thing into there because it came into my mind as you were talking. It's if and and it's maybe how I've tried to approach things, um, is instead of trying to so if we can't change a situation, we must first look to change ourselves. It's like if we're repeatedly looking for a different outcome from doing the same things, actually, there's probably something wrong with what we're doing. Yeah. So that that's where that self-awareness piece comes from. And I'm sure there are lots of parents, people out there listening to this that are like, God, you know, I just keep I keep telling them to do this, but they just don't get it. Okay. What do what do I need to change then? What is my approach that isn't learning? And and that's the key to it. But uh, Gordon, it's been wonderful, mate. Really enjoyed this conversation and and reflecting back on that England cults training session of uh 1995 or whatever.

Speaker 1 1:04:28

Yeah, I mean that was a lovely chat. Those of you uh listening, I will share it with you uh because I think it's important and I want people to see that we're we're very real. Uh Lewis and I uh both played in the same England trial together. Uh, I will be very honest, Lewis completely ruined uh my day and experience, as I said earlier, because he was on the opposite team uh to me on that day. And Lewis, I think, was first at every breakdown in the game. He must have won double figure penalties. Uh he was that good. And there was also a very good scrum half who I think ended up playing for Wasps, didn't he, in London Irish and England, who was on the same team as Lewis. And so Lewis won the penalty. Peter Richards has already tapped and started running. And if you're a big front rower like I was, it made for a very, very long afternoon um going backwards. So the fact I've even been able to forgive Lewis and invite him onto the Parents in Sport podcast from that memory, uh, says something about how I've grown up uh and been able to move on and reflect as well. But Lewis, thank you for uh joining us on the show. Uh brilliant conversation, loved having you and uh look forward to chatting again.

Speaker 1:05:39

Good, and I've I've thoroughly enjoyed it and uh I look forward to learning more from listening to the podcast in the future and the different guests that you have on. Gilliam, thank you. Take care.

Speaker 1 1:05:49

Thank you for listening. Check us out at parentinsport.co.uk