Creating the best environments and support for young female athletes to thrive - 'A conversation with Ivi Casagrande'

In this episode High Performance Consultant Ivi Casagrande joins Gordon MacLelland to discuss creating the best environments and support for young female athletes to thrive.

During the conversation they discuss amongst other things:

• The importance of consistent messaging to young athletes from parents and coaches
• Providing autonomy, encouraging exploration and developing decision-making skills
• The differences in how girls and boys experience puberty
• The coach and parent role in shaping positive body image perceptions
• The importance of educating young girls around strength, movement and neuromuscular coordination from an early age
• How to take advantage of hormonal fluctuations to optimise performance by tracking the menstrual cycle
• Effectively managing social media and technology
• Holding our young people accountable without being overly authoritative helping to foster responsibility and independence

Ivi is an expert in women's football and the founder of Casagrande Coaching. In a world where many clubs still apply men’s football models without understanding the specific needs of female athletes, Ivi’s female-centric whole systems approach is rewiring the system to benefit everyone: coaches and athletes of all genders.

She is positively disrupting outdated norms to forge a more flexible, resilient and sustainable ecosystem in football, and beyond. Over 20 years spent in dressing rooms, first as a professional player and then coach, Ivi went from underdog outsider to become a pillar of the global sports community challenging the status quo. At an elite level, Ivi has worked as a performance coach with three national teams: Ireland Women’s Team, Brazil Women’s Team and US Youth National Teams.

She now focuses on both early career and seasoned coaches via International coach education programmes, grassroots projects and progressive frameworks that create better environments for everyone to thrive. Currently Ivi delivers coach education for the Football Association of Ireland via a grassroots programme supporting young female football players, and with FIFA and UEFA as a Technical Expert delivering workshops for teams around the world.

Raised in Brazil, Ivi played professional football at Atletico Mineiro before continuing her scholarship-enabled education and athletics in the US where she transitioned into coaching. Her professional women's coaching career started with Orlando Pride in the US and then Brighton & Hove Albion in the the UK Women's Super League.

While Ivi’s specialisms run deep, her practice is future-facing and always exploring new learnings beyond the boundaries of sport. At a time when the long suppressed women' s game is transforming the sport worldwide, Ivi is an active changemaker shifting perceptions of high performance while establishing a new baseline for what's valuable, aspirational and acceptable.

Transcript

Speaker 2 0:13

Welcome to season six of the Parents in Sport Podcast. I'm your host, Gordon Maclelland. I'm delighted to be joined today by High Performance Consultant and the current high performance coach of the Irish Female National Football Team, Ivi Casagrande. Ivi, thank you for joining us on the show.

Speaker 0:31

Gordon, thank you so much for inviting me. Very excited to talk to you with you today.

Speaker 2 0:36

Yeah, looking forward to this and today's topic, you know, creating the best environments and support for young female athletes to thrive. Obviously, you're working at the top of sport now with uh adult females, but I know your background has incorporated um some specialisms working with young females. Um, can you just tell uh our listeners uh a little bit about yourself, your background, what you've been up to in your in your years involved in sport?

Speaker 1 1:06

Yeah, sure. So um I started as a as a footballer myself. Uh in well, I mean, since I was five, I played football coming from Brazil, that's where I'm from. Um played with boys my entire life until probably 15, uh, 16, where um joined a futsal team, then played professional in Brazil. Um, and then had the dream to go to America to play and and study, because I think that's that's that's the the place that I could go, that I could blend both together, uh, which I wouldn't be able to do in Brazil. Um so I went to Ohio with a full scholarship um in 2010. Stay there, uh, did my bachelor's. I was a pre-med applied health science back then, um, wanted to go to med school. Then things changed a little bit once I got my bachelor's, did a one-year kind of gap year in California. Just one of those things that you do like five different jobs, just to try to figure out what you want to do. And I was coaching, I was working in in hospitals and cancer research. Um, and then I just realized that I really missed the sport. Uh, I had I had to make the decision of stop playing um quite earlier than I thought that I would, but it was one of those things where where you go as a um you go by yourself to America to a completely different country, and then you want to stay there, and you just have to make some money. So back then, I think as a footballer, even going pro, there's not a lot of money in it. So I just had to make the decision to pursue my master's, and which was the best thing that ever I've ever done, because I really fell in love with high performance. Um, I did my master's in in kinesiology, uh, exercise physiology, and then just started coaching kids in 2017. Well, I started 2014 uh coaching football, but it was not only until 2016, 17 after my master's, that I I started actually coaching young athletes. Um and I fell in love with it. I was really, really passionate about uh youth development, still am, um, but kind of life went and uh gave me some opportunities in the women's game uh at the the highest level um and with more of the elite professional senior team. And it's been very cool. Um I came to England four years ago, um, worked in Brighton uh women's for a little bit and um and then decided to open my own business, uh high performance consultancy business and doing a lot of different projects at the moment, um, working with the Irish women's national team, which has been very, very amazing opportunity, and um, and then doing some coach education um and long-term athletic development projects, um, which has been quite cool to come back to it now.

Speaker 2 4:14

Fantastic. I mean, you've touched you've touched plenty of bases there, which I think's uh also nice. I often joke, Evie, a bit like you, I finished playing at a young age, so technically I should be 60 now, having done 25 years of coaching, even though I've still got still got a bit of energy left, which is good. Now we're we're talking, you know, really good environments, support for you know, high performers or or young female athletes. Um, you'll have seen over the years that there's these amazing sort of support groups for athletes, they need them, they need that support network. Um I guess some of the challenges come, particularly in the youth space, around how effectively are we working together? You know, we still encounter lots of challenges where coach-parent relationships, even at the highest level of sport, are a little bit fractious, young people getting different messages from their parents than they are from their coaches. Uh, you obviously see the support behind the adult performer. Um why is it so important that we get that aligned and are able to join up the dots to help people perform?

Speaker 1 5:29

Yeah, I think um it it's it's interesting because I was I was a footballer, so I can talk a little bit about when I was a player and was in environments and and clubs, I think players and and and young athletes they see through uh all this. Like if if you're not aligned as a coach um or as a parent, is and you have mixed messages, it's kind of overwhelming. And you add the social media aspect to it nowadays. So young um athletes are also getting all this information that it's out on Instagram, that most of it it's it's just not good quality stuff. So you see all this uh this happening. So I think as coaches, you have such a big role and impact on the on the athlete. And I think I think the the relationship between the all the stakeholders around the the the kid, uh the athlete, the coach and the parent, it's very important. But when it comes, I think what I've learned in the last two, three years, it's um because as a coach, you just there's a lot of turnover in sports, right? So like you're in a one role and then next next day you're in a different role because of results, um, you don't have control over it. So it's almost kind of how you can leave a legacy with the athlete in terms of educating them on their journey, uh, giving them the autonomy and understanding their bodies, understanding uh just how to make decisions on on their own. And I think a lot of what I've seen from a parent perspective and from a coach perspective is we dictate what we want them to do. We said we say, even if as a coach, we want you to do this, this, this, and this way, this way, this way. And I think a lot of parents um that I've worked with, uh, young kids, especially in America, it would they would tell the kid what to do and where to go. Um, and then you see kids at nine, 10, 11-year-olds that are already not passionate to the sport because they're just being told what to do. They have no exploration, they have no autonomy. Um so, in a lot of my practice as a coach, I I really let them have a voice and um listen more than actually talk. Um I I developed this um kind of like two, three years ago. But as a when I started coaching, I I would go in that wagon of like telling them what to do, and and this is what you learn in in science, especially, where you have those methods and you have to stick to them. Um, but at the end of the day, it's kind of the environment, which is the most important part and how you create that best environment for them to thrive.

Speaker 2 8:37

Yeah, I mean, you you I look through some of the things you've talked about there. I think the challenge of information is interesting. I mean, as you say, quality of information, where it's coming from, what are the motivations? You know, I speak in a lot of environments where parents are openly making up their own information for their own gains and sending everybody into a frenzy of panic as to what they're doing. It's like, but who are you listening to? Who are you listening to? And it's amazing how that that happens. I think social media um is a challenge um for young people. I think that bit you touched on, and I know that you're friends with Sarah, who who speaks for us as well, that helping young people understand their sport is really important. We're spending a lot of time with teenagers, getting them to actually understand what it is that's actually going on, give them a chance to actually talk about it. Because, as you say, at some point they need to be able to advocate for themselves, and that can even be helping how do you stand up for yourself and how do you frame conversations, even for young people? It can be a whole host of different things that allow them, as you say, to get that autonomy and control because we know in the long term that without that autonomy, in most cases, not in every case, but in most cases, that's when we see young performers dropping away, isn't it? Or they they they choose to do other things.

Speaker 1 10:11

And I think we're I mean, it I I've when I was a a coach that just started, when you lack a little bit of confidence and you you kind of you see people doing those those uh practices and methods, and you're trying to almost copy and paste, and you're because you lack the confidence because you haven't tried on your own. So I think once you once you try on your own, so like I started actually practicing everything that I was doing. I'm like, wait a minute, I'm not feeling that this is helping me as a as a player, and that was cool because I was doing my master's as I was playing semi-pro. So I was testing things out on my own. And then now as a as a coach, then it's kind of if you if you tell them um what to do, then they they're not gonna know what's going on. So, like in terms of movement, you see co uh athletes just going through the motions and not even knowing why they're doing what they're doing, because we're not taking them on an educational journey, we're not really explaining to them why we're doing things, so um, yeah. So I think that that's definitely our role as coaches is is so important in that. Um, because it's just gonna get worse because of the social media and the misinformation that's out there.

Speaker 2 11:24

Yeah, I think that understanding and being able to apply things at at the right times and the freedom to choose those. Because actually, if we think about it logically, otherwise we just end up with a whole host of robots, don't we?

Speaker 1 11:36

Oh, 100%. And that's what it's it's very easy to get to that point. Um, um, and and like I said, I in the beginning I would be so frustrated as a coach when I was like, it worked for me, this is the tools that I'm giving you. And I was always frustrated that they wouldn't really follow through. And I'm like, wait a, wait a second, what it works for me is not gonna necessarily works works for them. So providing the tools, then they figure it out. If it's good for them, then great. If it's not, it's fine. We find another way to to get the job done. Um, but yeah, so it's it's they have to to be able to make the decision. And but we we as coaches need to provide the education and the tools and resources for them to be successful.

Speaker 2 12:24

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that that one around um setting up the setting up the environment and you consider I guess you consider that, but you were talking about about coaches and just rewinding to that bit about coach development. I think it's really hard for young coaches, and I get to talk to a lot of them at the moment because when you go new into a field and you're coaching, you run sessions and you sort of not hope for the best, but you hope they go quite well. You've got no track record or experience to draw upon. So you tend to pull your experiences from either a quick coach ed course, what your teachers did with you, or what worked for you. Yeah, um, and I think that parents maybe do that also with their support of young performers as well. Well, if that worked for me, then it'll work for my kids. Now, I can categorically say the stuff that worked for me definitely does not work with one of my two children who are in performance sport. And when I keep banging on about what worked for me and my messages, it's probably the biggest turn off in the world. And I think we've got to be careful that we don't assume that we can just copy and paste on what worked for one person or one environment in another. We've got to be open to exploring different ideas and solutions, yeah.

Speaker 1 13:48

And let them make mistakes. I think trial and error, right? Like I don't have kids, I have a dog, but I had a lot of kids that I coached. And um, the more that you just let them figure it out on their own, it's the best thing to do. And I I remember this. Um, I used to have this um this day when I was coaching very young athletes, like eight to 12, eight, 12 years year old, especially, and in America. And I remember saying, okay, how can I develop their exploration autonomy? Because at this point, they're not talking to each other, they are not playing outside, they're just inside, they're just on their their you know, iPads and watching stuff every day. Um, so how do I create that environment for them to like let them explore a little bit? So I decided to do this experiment where I kind of and I I teach some uh football coaches to do that, um, especially on warmups. So I divided the group of kids into two, and I gave them a bunch of different equipment. Um, so I gave a bunch of different equipment for group one, a bunch of different equipment similar to group two, that's like hurdles, poles, all kinds of things that I could see in the in the gym. And I told them you have five minutes to meet as a group and talk um and create your own circuit. I want you to, the only rules that I'm giving you guys is you have to include jump, lending, rolling, um, and different creative things. And I let them go for five minutes. And it's so cool to see because you can see the the the kids that are open to exploration and likes the idea of having autonomy, they would be thriving. They would be the leaders, they would be kind of got kind of going, all right, guys, come come with me, I'll show you what I'm envisioning. The ones that are um mostly very uncomfortable with with that because they are probably used to having being told what to do all the time, they were they would feel very lost, and you could see that they were just like wouldn't be motivated to do the the the circuit. Um, and it was quite a cool, cool experien uh experiment, um, because that's what we want. We want to for coaches and parents to let them explore, let them explore movement, let them like be creative and come up with this crazy things, and and um and it was a huge shift on my practice because I come from uh a school of thought. Um it's called Exos, which is teaching movement before elite athletes. And I was trying to recreate that system in youth, and it was a failure, like because it was just like it was almost like you're teaching kids how to move the way you want them to move. So then I started to really like challenge myself and say, okay, I need to shift that, use those principles, but in a in a more kind of inviting way for kids to explore. So then I started doing that, and it was so cool because uh kids all of a sudden they they just were so excited to just actually have autonomy and fun. Uh, and most of those kids would be pressured by their parents to be in academies, soccer academies in America, which as you can uh as you can know, it's it's very competitive since a young age. Um, so yeah, I think it's it again, it's kind of how do you provide the constraints in the environment and the opportunities for them to actually generate the behavior that you want. Um so it's it was quite quite a cool, cool thing to do.

Speaker 2 17:52

Yeah, and I and I mean we're providing the frameworks and the principles and then encouraging the the exploration ultimately, aren't we? Yeah, I think when we sort of link back to social media, the bit I find challenging is that some people are listening to this and say, oh, well, Evie said that's the way to go. So that means we have to do it every single time that we're coaching. But we're not also saying that either, are we? Because there might be a time at a certain level where we say, actually, do you know what? That movement, that way of doing it is not really optimal. It's not going to work at the highest levels. Actually, I'm going to tell you now that this is what it could do with looking like. I just don't like this idea that people jump onto uh this is the only way to do it, because actually, for us as coaches, parents, actually, there's lots of different ways to doing it. It's when we pick what we need to use that incorporates some of the things we're talking about.

Speaker 1 18:46

100%. Yeah. And then that's the thing with experimentation, right? I think it's and like you said in the beginning, it's one thing that works in one environment is definitely not gonna work in in another environment. And that as coaches, this is like so easy um to do. Like I've when I moved clubs, a lot of the times I would carry on, carry my biases with me and the things that I used to do, and it worked in the club, and I try to do in the the same club, and I'm like, it's definitely not gonna work. Um, so I think it it has to be a trial and error process. And I think for parents, even for parents, in order, nobody's gonna get it right all the time. Like you really have to allow yourself and the kids to experiment and then find the best way for them to to to really thrive in those environments.

Speaker 2 19:42

Yeah, I mean there's obviously a difference between the environment you work in now with Ireland, where it is about results, and obviously the youth environment where it doesn't need to be. Obviously, it is in some cases. Um how can they be obviously everybody's still trying to perform well though. What what are the differences do you think? What do we need to do with teenage girls, let's say, that maybe looks a little bit different when they then become adults? What are you thinking about in terms of changing what you do, or do you actually keep a similar set of principles but just adapt your delivery almost?

Speaker 1 20:33

Yeah, I think the the experience, I think that the main difference between boys and girls, I think, especially during uh puberty, it's um it's a completely different experience for both of them, uh, especially psychologically. Uh, just because when boys get through their rapid rate of growth and their peak high velocity, what we call PHV, um, they're gonna get faster, stronger very quickly. And you really notice when a boy is like going through puberty, it's very tall most of the time, uh, strong, fast. Um now with the girls, uh, although they do get some lean mass uh from the from their growth maturation process, they also get uh a decent amount of fat mass. So a lot of body image issues uh kind of comes up and they might get a little bit slower um on the pitch because they're going through those changes with those those really um the change in hormones, and and a lot of the times because those kids are not uh educated on this process, they think that you know it they're just gonna a lot of them drop out of the sport because of it, because a lot of the times they don't have the support of coaches. Sometimes coaches don't understand, and and even parents sometimes don't understand about. those changes. So a lot you you can see a lot in the media that's like, oh, girls have a huge highest rate of injuries compared to boys because of their biology. But most of it, it's the the biopsychosocial environment that they were brought in and the resources that boys and girls are awarded. So like boys normally in academies since a young age they will have a better quality of coaches, they have more investment. And then then girls, when they are going through that rapid rate of growth, what happens is they are getting like strength development and athletic development way later on because they don't have the like coaches and support to to go through and explain to them the importance of that. So they're kind of missing that that really important phase where even before puberty like because of course it happens in girls a little bit earlier than boys. So it can go from like 9 to 11 sometimes and boys normally go 13, 14. So it's so important to get the athletic development, teach them how to move their bodies to control their bodies, that neuromuscular coordination, the strength development is so important before so then when those changes hit, they are better able to um be exposed to the demands of the game. So if they are playing in a competitive league, they are able to to uh recover faster because they've been exposed to that the training age of that is is higher. So so you you have to kind of take in into uh consideration that when you're coaching young female athletes first of all understanding and and explaining to them it's a normal process especially when they get their periods there's going to be a lot of changes uh happening you know once a month and um and a lot of the times people think that would just be the when they get their their cycle and those like four or five days um that they get their cycle but the entire change of hormones happen in the entire month. So for example I myself as a female I have 10 days before my my period actually arrives I have huge crazy mood swings and um because I track my cycle I understand that those changes are are based on the the the hormone whole oscillation of hormones um and I've been diagnosed with endometriosis which it's quite a painful process for females um where their periods are way more painful and there's more flow. So we need to be able to talk about those things and educate the kids and and female athletes and know what is normal, know when it's not normal and understand that tracking their cycles is so important so they can understand their bodies. And nowadays it's so easy like they they have apps pre-apps that allow you to kind of look within and say okay how am I feeling today and a lot of the times we we kind of perceive only the bad symptoms of the cycle but there's also amazing positive symptoms so like there is phases in my cycle that I feel so strong. That's when I know that I can actually go to the gym and really lift heavy but that process I think as a coach and as a parent you have to educate the the kids so then they are able to know their bodies track their bodies feel like oh I'm feeling sad today I'm feeling over like very anxious overwhelmed and know how to navigate into that know what is normal and is not so I think coaching female athletes I think I've learned so much more on how to have those conversations and just listen to them and and see how their their kind of individual individualities are and how we can help them.

Speaker 2 26:12

Yeah I think my goodness I've written down about six things from your last few minutes there because I think there's some things for us as parents um in particular maybe dads I would say even more as well about with daughters um understanding their cycles trying to help the support of that at home but actually are young girls understanding what may be going on as you say there are some positives to certain parts of the cycle there there there are some negatives um as well body image you brought up and talked about in young females that growth now I want to be very honest here um I got this wrong uh probably about a year ago when I described my daughter who's quite a good footballer as being slightly heavy now it wasn't meant in the intention of she was badly overweight it was that sign where she still plays boys football like you did she's 13 and doing well in her own right with the boys she just looked slightly sluggish and slightly slow to which my wife then did say well if she ends up with a body image issue you're to blame and you're responsible for this for making that comment girls' bodies change don't they like you've already alluded to how do we as parents what do we just have to consider with that maybe not being as as silly as I was with such a a comment it is going to their shapes are going to change aren't they through throughout those teenage years maybe even from 11 right the way through to 18 how do we how do we foster good habits make them feel good and and do we even talk about it or do we completely ignore it or are they just going to go and look at social media and compare it what what what what what are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 1 28:11

Yeah it's a tough one I think the the the main thing is the language that we use I think it and almost like defining what we define as sporty uh what a sporty body looks like and that's what the media normally defines right and sometimes we ourselves as of our own biases we would define but not I think kind of shifting the the the talk around what the body looks like to what the body can do I think it's is quite important. You know I've I as a female I struggle with body image still today like I as an athlete I I did struggle a lot and I was quite obsessed with like trying to look a certain way just because of how the society kind of perceives until I was like realized how strong I was able to be just like and it doesn't matter if I I was looking like bulky or whatever but I was actually feeling confident about me being strong and being able to push push um other players around um then when I kind of shifted that mindset in terms of like whoa this is what my body can do instead of this is what my body looks like it it really helped shape that. And of course understanding my body better um like I said I think educating uh the young girls about the changes that will happen and it's completely normal but though that doesn't define uh who they are and how they look it's it's kind of like more accepting it um the the positive changes there they can be positive um and then knowing that with that you know I think with the the the the hormones and stuff like that especially when you go through puberty a lot of the the strength adaptations when when you do uh strength work and strength development for young athletes before they hit puberty and before they hit the rapid growth most of the adaptations are neural adaptations and then once they they hit uh puberty because of the hormones then it's you can kind of have more structural adaptations that muscle size and stuff like that. And that's when you actually can really take advantage of of training and and strength work and uh athletic development work. It's kind of like whoa now I can really um have um be stronger even stronger and even faster because I'm gonna be able to be stronger.

Speaker 2 30:52

So if I'm stronger I can hit the ground faster hit the ground with more explos explosive is explosive um so it's all about how we frame this how if we frame this this um this period and also how we also frame to our our athletes our female athletes that there's no definition of what a sporty like there's we shouldn't be putting an image of what sporty looks like and it's almost like empowering them to see what their bodies can do and really empowering them like whoa look how strong can you be um I like that you know what what what can you do I just want to go back to these growth and these cycles that we see in young females let's take the journey generally from 11 to 18 and I I I know that everybody's it's obviously an individual thing that people hit those stages at different times. What should we expect to see in that sort of block of of period you know when you know let's say I'm listening to you this morning and I'm thinking well I think my daughter's quite strong I think she's already started to go through puberty but I'm still not convinced she's only 13 whether she needs to do the gym work that a 16 year old brother's doing who is quite good as well.

Speaker 1 32:14

How do you how do you know without that level of expertise when is the right time to incorporate this or when do you have to back off a little and let it develop out what what are the general patterns or trends that you see in those periods in terms of uh athletic development and strength development you can start early on and that can be just teaching them fundamental movement skills right so we talk about knowing how to squat knowing how to hinge knowing how to push things how to pull things how to rotate how to stabilize how to jump how to lynch those are the the mainly the the grass grasping fundamental movement skills and you can do that at any point with at any any any time and I think the youngest that like so for example eight nine from nine to twelve you do that a little bit with more fun involved more creativity that's where we we talk about the circuits and talk about um animal flows animal movements right the the bear crawl um all those different things uh crab walks that you develop those movement skills early on now developing those movement skills early on without a lot of weights uh a lot of um that will allow them to know their the those movements kind of like an like a more like a neuromuscular coordination you're setting up the movements aren't you to then add load later on you're basically getting them to do it with minimal weight so you can do the movements you're just removing the the weight element so it's all about the training age so if if in technical competent competency so like if you feel like they are able to squat well hinge well push pull then you start adding resistance to get a resistance band you're like I want you to just pull in a resistance band. Great then once they are able to do that you can add weights and then it's all about about progressive uh increases of weight and understanding that once they go through the rapid phases of growth you see a lot of awkwardness um a lot of um in their movement so they're gonna be kind of because of their limbs or uh growing like crazy they're still figuring out their center of mass they're still figuring out their balance so that's why it's so important to keep hunting those uh athletic movement skills throughout the stage especially when they are going through that awkward phase so their bodies can learn how to move and to control movement and then once if they are competing if they are playing with boys if they are playing um and playing a very like the bunch of different sports you just have to understand about the load itself because going through those changes psychologically it's gonna add a huge load on them and then you add academics you add competition you add social pressure you add social media that will be a load on its own so I think it's understanding when they go through those changes you have to be a little bit more sympathetic in terms and empathetic in terms of how how much you you add in terms of load and we're not talking about just physical load right we're talking about cognitive and and and mental load um so I think it's we also say with as a in a coaching perspective you need to develop your coaching eye you need to develop and see and notice things and listen to things uh when when your kid is talking to you about their their worries or about what they're going through you need to take that into account and say okay how can I then support them into this phase maybe not pushing them too much to do uh a lot of extra work let them figure it out what where they want to spend their energy more if they want to go to practice because that's how they feel so happy and it's not energy draining for them. Let them do it. So that's why I think it's so important to understand those changes but also work with them. And I think it's we always thought me and Sarah we always talk about this like language is so important right it's not how to deal with it it's how to work with it.

Speaker 2 36:40

So I think it's it's very important to kind of teach them um what they go through but also as parents and coaches understand that they might have been going through a lot of changes and I think it's our in our role as as as uh coaches and parents to to listen to them more and provide that support yeah fantastic you've taught you talked a lot about the sort of social media technology usage I think it's uh continues to be a real challenge for many of the sports parents we face um there are obviously positives and negatives in terms of its usage even at the level that you're working at at the moment how do you um look to manage with with the highest performers around the technology social media what have you seen or what what are your thoughts on it is it an individual thing or do you try to put in some parameters what what's the sort of thing you're doing at the very top end of sport yeah it's it's it's a funny one because a lot of the elite athletes they almost it it becomes what they what they do because there's sponsorships there are things that they have to kind of keep being active and I I take this like as in a personal level because that's I'm as a consultant you have to put your work out there you have to like and I hate that but it's kind of like you need to do that because it's your job um so I started to learn how to do myself because I knew that it was bringing me a lot of anxiety of like scrolling and things.

Speaker 1 38:14

So I I put my own boundaries and I'm still I'm still learning but what I do is because I do it on my myself and I try myself then I'm able to give my players the tools and say okay listen you might not know by scrolling around before bed that it's doing something in your head but just by looking at things that other people are doing things or a message even a message that you can that it causes something on you that it causes emotions on you that you might not see. And then all of a sudden your mind is like nonstop then you cannot sleep well it takes more time for you to sleep and then it's a cascade of events. So what I normally tell them to do is kind of like okay why don't you try it out first on maybe you either put your phone in another room if that's too hard that's fine put do not disturb two hours before bed cut the notifications on your phone. That's I think that's the the biggest one a lot of people have notifications for everything. I don't even have email notifications on my phone. And I like I I have to deal with emails on a daily basis but I know that it brings me anxiety and I know that when I'm doing something I get very distracted if I have something going on. So and the distraction part is so big with with with uh athletes and even like being present you see players that when you talk to them they're not even listening to you they're just like thinking about all their stuff so how can you remove those triggers um and I I I teach that to young athletes also I say you guys might not notice but it it it really kind of gets you if you read a message or if you see something start paying attention what emotions that can bring you and what that affects your performance. And then all of a sudden they start thinking about it and they start trialing things out and then it that that's kind of how I do it. I don't say you should do this but try it out. Yeah.

Speaker 2 40:27

Yeah and I and I think that's again a lovely way of putting it I mean I may be described as as draconian uh on some things and I know working with young people and and their parents um talking about putting in phone routines at home the whole family docking their devices in that run into bed because we know there could be impacts on performance. I talk to young people well one a big one for me is you know not being on their devices before competition not necessarily for the music or not necessarily for watching a film if it's a long journey it's more the um messaging functions the stuff that raises the anxiety I I'm still yet to see anybody convince me that going on though is there's going to be more positives than potential negatives in terms of performance. I mean I'm open for people to consider that but a lot of parents say it's really difficult because they end up in these sort of fallouts with the kids and I'm really clear on this because it's like but if you're telling me you want to be a performer then you've got to make some good choices. I don't want to let you off the hook here but you can't say on one hand I want to perform at my best or I want to be a high performer if the choices you make yeah aren't helping you do that. And I think that's how we give them that autonomy and if they really are serious about it and they want to find every gain they can they've really then got to consider what they do haven't they and we're we're putting that on them.

Speaker 1 41:57

You do have to be all almost like strategic in how you say it I do it all the time and almost like tricking them to understand what I'm saying by like so for example a lot of them have those gadgets like whoop right the whoop the aura rings and uh it's great but also it's terrible for a lot of reasons in terms of like a lot of people obsessed with the data and and stuff like that. But one thing that I start like I started doing is like when they complain to me that they are tired or we have the wellness questionnaire or even you can ask the kids in the morning like how you feel I feel very sluggish or I feel very and then you start the conversation like did you sleep well it's like yeah I was quite anxious I couldn't really sleep and then you start always correlating to the performance side when you correlate with the performance side then things started to change. So then when I say okay you have your whoop there um so next time just try it out just maybe just have two hours off your phone um put a breathing protocol in uh just to get you to like breathe and a lot of them were like oh I hate breathing but then when I tell them that breathing can link to performance because I've I've like I had a huge panic attack in 2021 then I went to the hospital thinking that I was having a heart attack um and that allowed me to slow it down and say whoa I need to change some things so I started training I I signed up for this the this uh these guys that I really trust and they have this breathing um uh work system where it's all about performance and I started working on my nasal breathing and I got Sarah to do that to do it too so you can ask her she she she was on this all the time but learning how to breathe through my nose just by like um doing my jogs uh four sets four minutes right and I started like feeling so much fitter and it's like wow so breath not only helps with the mind But also helps the performance. So I started doing that with my players in recovery. So when they're doing uh recovery or rehab, when they were like very frustrated that they had an injury, I'll go, okay, we're gonna do this bike session, but we're all gonna do nasal breathing. And they started to like love the challenge of this, right? So it's almost how kind of how do you correlate those things instead of just saying you should do this because this is not the way to do it, right? It's kind of like playing around and say, look, I I almost like challenging. It's like, oh, I did this breath work. You should try it, see how, see how how much you can get on. Um, and athletes love competition, and your kids will probably love competition. So it's finding different ways, creative ways to to get the point across, and instead of just um more like the direct uh authority, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 44:54

It's providing that, it's providing them to think about, consider it, and then make their choices. And I think then our role as parents then or as coaches is to actually jump on, let's say they make a good decision and it leads to a positive outcome, that we jump on the decision. I'm talking to parents about this, jump on the decision. Yeah, don't jump on the outcome. Because in my world and your world, everybody's chasing outcomes at the level we are. I just take that for granted. But actually, let's jump on the decision. Because if we're valuing that as much as the outcome, and we let our kids know that they may think, oh, hang on, pat on the bat for making a good decision, I might do that again, because that's led to a positive. So we're almost trying to ingrain those behaviors with them, aren't we? And I know a lot of parents fear with some of these dialogues, and we spend a lot of time, is like you say, that if we just go in, particularly with teenagers and say, you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do that, we're in we're implementing this, we then end up with basically two sets of emotions clashing with each other, and it doesn't it doesn't work. So we've got to be cleverer, as you say, we've got to be more subtle with how we land the the messages. I've got I've got a little bit, um, not grumpy is not the right word, I've got a little bit with you with teenagers at the moment, particularly around some of the performance environments we work, holding them a little bit more accountable with their parents, in terms of their saying to their parents, I want to do this and I want to do that. And like you say, well, hang on a minute, you're saying you want to do this, do your actual behaviors and the choices you make actually reflect that that's the case, or are we just paying lip service to this? But I think we've got to help them with that because they may want to do it, they may not understand what the good behavior is, they may not understand what the good choices are, and we've got to try and sort of bring that to life for them in a way that suits them because they're different to me, you know. Me engaging with teenagers is is very different. I've got to try and get with it a little bit, which I don't do very well if you ask my kids, but you've got to try to to so that they can work with it, yeah.

Speaker 1 47:08

And I we actually see this in in uh the elite senior level. I have a lot of athletes that are very specific in what they want. It's like, I do this at my club, but I I why are we not doing this? And then when we actually talk about it and say, listen, do you actually know why you do it? And is it is it actually serving you, or are you just kind of following what's out there? And so that I think that as coaches and and parents, and you we we have to hold them accountable in terms of like, great, you want this and you think that's that's that's um that's good for you, but where are you getting this from? And is it is it serving you? Is it actually impacting you, or or are you just doing it because everybody else is doing it, or it's because society is telling you, or social media is telling you. So yeah, I definitely agree with you. I think there's even uh yeah, sometimes it's is it's very frustrating as coaches, um, because there's a lot of um players in the elite level and even in the youth level that are gonna be very um what's the what's the word? As the there's a word that I always um always forget in English. It's almost like when they are they think that they can have it.

Speaker 2 48:31

Uh they are I'll tell you what, let's not worry about it. Why don't you give us the Brazilian word and then we can all go and look it up? What's the Brazilian word?

Speaker 48:40

Oh, I don't even know because I'm out of Brazil for 10 years. Oh, come on.

Speaker 2 48:44

I thought we were gonna have our first bit of Brazilian live on the podcast there.

Speaker 1 48:48

Oh god, it's like entitlement. That's it.

Speaker 2 48:52

Entitlement, yes. I always forget about this word, it's crazy that word gets mentioned in so many environments trying to make sense of entitlement or perceived entitlement.

Speaker 1 49:03

Yeah, so there is a lot of that. Um, I think in especially when you get to the senior, senior level. Um, there are some people that would just be entitled for um this, I want this, I want that. Um, but yeah, it's very frustrating sometimes. But yeah, like I said, it's it's it you almost have to make them accountable and hold them accountable and um know a little bit about the why and challenge them to actually explain um their thoughts a little bit more.

Speaker 2 49:36

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it just sort of uh golden nuggets of advice here. Final question, I'm conscious of time. I think one of the big things around young females for me, them feeling connected, having a healthy identity, feeling good about themselves are really big parts. I mean, we know that you know, healthy relationships with identity, whether we're talking teenage girls here or whether we're talking, you know, adult elite players. Um I know you're striving to ensure they have a healthy relationship with it at the very top end. Uh, what do you think we need to be considering as parents to help support our daughters um with this? I did hear a lovely saying around identity, you like this if you haven't heard it before. Guy called Brad Stullberg, who we've got coming on the podcast similar to you, and he wrote a book called Master of Change and he was talking about it, not that he's an a complete expert in identity, but I did like he said you would never build a house with one room. And if you did, and it it either had flood damage or was set on fire, you're not left with a lot. And I quite like the analogy.

Speaker 1 50:45

I love his work, he's very good with his awards.

Speaker 2 50:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So do I. But I'm a big fan. There's a I've sort of got a hit list of 10 that I tend to use and and maneuver around with, and he he's uh he's up there along with Steve Magnus as well.

Speaker 1 51:00

Yeah, um, yeah, that's a big one because uh I mean I've I was uh as a as a footballer, I've built my identity outs uh like around football. And when I kind of went away from football as a player, I struggled a lot. Uh so I think I I try to really have players, especially in off-season when they are not in competitive season, to explore so many different ways to like move their bodies, to go on walks, to be connected with nature, to uh try different sports, try different environments, um, hang out with people that are outside of their sports, so important. Um, so then they kind of start seeing that they are way more than the sport. And I think it's very easy for especially parents to, oh, I just want to help my kid. I'm gonna put all the resources and energy into making them the best athlete that they can. But once you actually develop the identity outside of football, and especially for me, that happened very, very nicely. It's like I started to actually be a better coach because I was able to see that out because I was a workaholic. I like when I was like three years ago when I had my panic attack, I was everything was around work. Everything I would I dictate everything on work, and now is the opposite. I'm like, work is second in my priorities. First priority is how I feel, how I uh have my relationships with people, my family, and work comes after that, and I set my own terms in terms of that. Um, and it's so easy for us to put like everything into our identity into our sport. Um, but I developed so much more confidence and you know, learned so many more skills just by hanging out with people that are not in sports and doing things that are not like competitive all the time, to just do things for fun, which for me was very hard because I've always been so competitive. Um and and I started having like the best time. I I remember like last year or two years ago, I tried like about six different sports, and it was so fun. Um, because I kind of like let go of the perfectionism of just being the best that I wanted to be at one thing. And um, so yeah, definitely I think the environment, like I said, the environment really is the most important part um to create that behavior. And I think as parents and coaches, we need to show our athletes there are so many more things because what happens if they are injured and they cannot play anymore, you know.

Speaker 2 53:45

Absolutely, and actually, the earlier we do it, the better it's gonna be. Unraveling it later on is even more difficult. Something we're so proactive in talking about. The earlier we can do this, the or consider it and build it into what we're doing, definitely the better, because we've all seen the worst case scenario is that when it's completely embedded and we can't unravel it.

Speaker 1 54:09

Exactly. Yeah, so definitely that's that's something that I would always encourage and always encourage my players to try things out and um to kind of be disconnected a little bit sometimes with the sport, which it's hard for them, and it's hard for me as a coach to say just go two weeks, you have two weeks off, don't even think about football, just do everything else.

Speaker 2 54:30

Yeah, I think it's hard for all of us, isn't it, to to disconnect. Um, Evie, thank you for um joining us on the show. You are without a doubt the first Brazilian uh ever to join the podcast, even though we couldn't remember the word for entitlement.

Speaker 1 54:46

Um I don't even know that word in Portuguese, which is crazy, but I like I I know the action, but yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 54:52

But we'd almost had the first um Portuguese Brazilian, uh however we want to describe it word. Um absolute pleasure having you on. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Um working with you know the highest performing females around, how we can support young females who are maybe aspiring to achieve some of those things. And I'm sure that lots of the parents, coaches uh listening to the to the podcast will be able to take something away that they can look to implement either at home or or on the training field. So thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 55:28

Thanks so much, Gordon. Appreciate you.

Speaker 3 55:31

Thank you for listening. Check us out at parentinsport.co.uk.