Nicola Kerslake founded Contain Inc, a fintech platform for indoor agriculture, that aids indoor farmers in finding lease funding for their projects. They're backed by Techstars' Farm to Fork program, funded by Cargill and Ecolab.
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[00:00:00] Hey everyone. Thanks again for joining us for the poly greens podcast. I'm Joe Swartz with AM hydro along with my friend and colleague, Nick greens from the Nick Greens grow team. And we're here to talk with you about all things controlled environment agriculture. On that note, we've got a great guest today.
Uh, we have Nicola Kerslake with us and almost everyone in the CA industry, uh, is familiar with Nicola or her work. Um, she's the founder of new being capital. I'm also the founder of indoor ag con, which is of course, one of the most successful and well attended indoor and controlled environment, farming, uh, events in the world.
Uh, I've met a lot of great people there. I've been there many, many times. Um, and Nicole is also the founder of contain, which is a platform that helps connect controlled environment to a controlled environment, agriculture, to farming, to financing. And so in my work, a lot of people always ask me, you know, one of the big [00:01:00] challenges and one of the big pain points in controlled environment agriculture.
And one of the things that, you know, we hear about a lot of large investment, especially indoor vertical farming, but financing is very difficult. Sometimes controlled environment. Agriculture of course, is very capital intensive. And financing for small midsize and even large facilities is, is quite difficult.
So Nicola has done a lot to help move the industry forward in that way. So on that note, uh, Nicola welcome. Thanks very much for being here. Um, please tell, uh, us all a little bit more about yourself and kind of where you got started and how you got to where you are now. Um, firstly, thanks for, thanks for having me.
It's um, it's great to get to do this with you. We're big fans of your podcast. So, uh, I got involved in the industry, um, almost by accident. Um, my background is primarily in investment banking and asset management and, um, I was driving across the country and happened to stay at an off the grid [00:02:00] community that had a rudimentary aquaponic system at it.
In Towson, New Mexico. And it was one of those moments where you think, huh, this could be something. Um, and I wasn't quite sure what, although I come from, um, a family that, that has a history of farming, I didn't, I hadn't been involved in farming at that point, but it just seemed to me that this was one way that we could feed 9 billion people a lot more sustainably than what we were doing already.
And, um, a couple of years later, um, a, I was complaining to a friend of mine that I couldn't find anyone else who was, um, who was also interested in, in things like aquaponics and hydroponics. And he said, well, why don't you just have an event and wait and see who shows up? Um, and so that's what we did. And so that's how the first indoor ad con got going.
Uh, we had, and Joe, I don't know if you were at that first one, but, uh, we, um, Thought we'd maybe get 30 or 40 people there who [00:03:00] were interested in this. And we got over 200 people from all different walks of life. So we got, we had preppers. Um, we had, uh, folks who were accountants, who were, had decided to give up accounting to, uh, to start farming.
Um, and then we had everyone else in between. So that's really how, um, into icon got going. Yeah, I, I attended, uh, the second one that was the first event that I had attended was the second indoor icon. And I was blown away by the number and diversity of folks. It was, it was pretty incredible. Yeah. And then, um, so as you know, we, we grew into ad con, um, and got to know pretty much everyone in the industry through the, through the event.
And what we learned from that was that the biggest challenge that folks were facing was really, they just couldn't get access to capital. So about three quarters of them were looking for outside capital and banks just wouldn't work with them. And that looked like a problem that we could solve. Um, both because of my background [00:04:00] in, um, investment banking.
Um, and also because we kind of already knew everyone in the industry. So we figured why not put the two together and try and solve this, this bigger problem. So at the end of 2018, we sold into icon. And that gave us the time and resource to focus on, on building contain. And so what we do at contain is we work with vendors such as yourselves, um, and at the point where, um, the indoor farmer is ready to start building.
So typically at the stage where. They have an invoice ready to go from, from someone like am hydro. Um, we then work with them to match them to our pool of currently 22, 23 lenders. Um, and, um, and then we take an arrangement fee at the point where a lease is put in place. So that's how, how we get paid. And, and you focus on really all areas, areas of controlled environment ag.
Correct? Is, is there, are there any limitations in terms of the type of [00:05:00] technology or the size or the scale? So we do pretty much any piece of capital equipment. Um, so obviously we sell, see whole greenhouse packages, things like the get growing bundle that, um, that you guys offer, um, hydro, um, and then, uh, led lights, HVAC, grow systems.
Um, and we container farms. Um, so we'll come up basically, any piece of capital equipment. And then in terms of crops, we cover obviously leafy greens are the biggest. Um, uh, but increasingly we're seeing things like insects, um, increasing amounts of fish, breeding, amounts of agriculture, um, and then mushrooms.
Um, and we would, you look at industrial hemp with the one crop we don't do is cannabis because of the federal probation. Interesting. So we, um, you, what, what do you see as kind of from, uh, from the financing side? So most growers, most of, uh, people that are coming into the business, whether they're an entrepreneur or [00:06:00] an existing grower, kind of understanding that, that whole process of, of financing or borrowing or taking investment.
It's a, it's a real minefield for a lot of us, a lot of growers. How do you approach it as far as helping growers one, understand it, but then helping them navigate that whole process. Sure. And so we, um, we essentially advocate for the farmer in the process. Um, and, uh, so there's several ways that we kind of prep the ground for them.
So the first one is we spend a great deal of time with, with the lenders. Making sure that they understand the industry that over and over, we get the same story from farmers, which is, you know, it looked like it went really well. And I got all the docs they needed in. And then, um, I got a call saying that the, the underwriter didn't believe that you needed led lights for farming.
Hmm. Um, and so we tend not to have those issues because we've already prepped the ground with [00:07:00] the lenders, and sometimes it can literally be as basic as why do you need led lights to grow? Um, so, and you have to remember, these lenders are looking at, in some cases, hundreds of industries, they could be working on something in construction, and then they could look at a deal with us.
Um, so that that's one part. The other is, um, we're pretty transparent with, with folks as to what isn't isn't viable. So, um, you're not borrowing for, uh, a new car here. You're not going to get those kinds of rates. Um, but, um, this is a situation where. Um, you can start quite small, um, and then become a, and then get access to better rates as you grow over time.
And so we're, we're always around where we're always happy to chat with farmers if they want to pick up the phone if they want to email. Um, and I do think that's a big differential to the way that most of finances going, which is, you know, pretty much everything is, um, is remote and you're essentially negotiating with the system.
[00:08:00] Um, and that's definitely not the experience that we want farmers to have. So you, you spent a lot of time or have spent a lot of time basically providing an educational experience for, for a lot of the people involved. So they understand this well. And I think as well, you know, we're, we're very much cognizant that this is a, this is a big financial decision for most people.
I mean, outside of, outside of buying a house, borrowing for your businesses, it's huge. Um, And so we, we definitely want to be sensitive to that and want people to feel that they can, they can pick up the phone and talk through options with us. Now, what if I was an outdoor farmer and I wanted to do, um, hydroponic cotton.
But I wanted to use am hydro equipment and adapting it outdoors. Uh, would there be some like certain qualifications people have to meet in order to get lending? Uh, no, that would actually be a really cool use case during cotton. Um, and I can take that idea that, yeah, I actually came from [00:09:00] Kanye West. Yeah.
Don, I'm not up on my Kanye. So, um, D we work with pretty much everyone who comes through the door. Um, life is a lot harder for a, um, startup. So about 80% of, of, um, indoor pharmacists, you know, a new to the industry and life's harder for them. So, um, the scenario you described where someone's already farming out doors is much, much easier.
Um, and sometimes those guys can, can just go to that bank and get, um, and get traditional lending from their bank. Nowadays, the access to capital for folks who are already established is, is, um, really quite good. Uh, versus where it was even three, four years ago. Um, the more challenging cases are folks who are transitioning from another industry, um, or who, um, maybe who just don't have work experience full stop.
Um, and that's where we can get [00:10:00] creative and work with them. Um, typically lenders are looking for some other source of income initially. Um, because as you know, you have a, uh, um, scale-up period where you're putting your, your farm together. Um, but no, we work with pretty much anyone who comes through the door and we have seen some really just fascinating use cases where every single day we get something.
And when we say, ha, I wouldn't have thought of that. Um, and that's really, you know, the fun bit for us is, um, as finance geeks, how do you, how do you help people who have, um, a use case that the, the world has not yet envisaged. Or at least the finance world hasn't yet envisage. And so at least from your, from your former yeah.
Life, and as you, you started, obviously the last several years has been a tremendous learning experience for you. As far as controlled environment agriculture, what's involved in the technologies and the players and all of that, that information that you've been absorbing, all that experience that you've been gathering.
Have you had projects, you know? So when, when [00:11:00] you look at, uh, uh, let's say, uh, an entrepreneur wants to, to build a greenhouse and growing, since we started a new business and you know, they traditionally you'd go to a bank or even like a USDA lender, and they're looking at kind of the balance sheet and the numbers and the assets, um, And, and, and as you had alluded to, they don't have a real good read on, you know, well, does this work or how would that work or is this, is this a good, uh, technological approach or a bad, I had one, but you have having the, the background of understanding the financing, but then also understanding a lot about the growing and a lot about the realities and you and I have even talked a lot.
About kind of economic realities of, of, of different crops or different approaches or different technologies. Have you seen in your. In the, in this process over the past few years, have you seen some projects that either, as you said, kind of like, I hadn't thought of that. It was really innovative and this is really, this is going to do really well.
Or [00:12:00] have you ever seen some projects that you just went, Ooh, wait a minute. This is not, this is not going to go well. So, and then we see both ends of the scales and we consider ourselves Switzerland. So. If someone comes in and they can afford to do a project that doesn't make any real sense, then that's their choice.
I mean, we're not, we're not here to tell people how to run their business. Um, the one area where we do kind of push back from people sometimes is we will sometimes get sets of numbers that just don't add up. Um, so you know, the classic one is always, um, Oh, I'm going to be at full, uh, full farming capacity can months end well, um, I mean, maybe you could, but we've never seen it yet.
Um, so that's, that's one area is, you know, do the numbers make sense? And then, um, yeah, we have definitely seen some, um, clans come in with Easter Terrick crops around them in particular where you're just like, wow, that's genius. [00:13:00] Um, uh, and then your, the other kind of complexity to this is not all projects have to make economic sense.
And there are plenty of folks who are growing for reasons other than economics, as you know, um, it could be that you'll growing because you, um, you, you have a particular, um, clientele that you need to, uh, to feed. Um, so you could be a captain's, um, situation. It could be that you want. You know, a container farm at your hotel because it looks great for, um, your, uh, customers striving up and you don't necessarily anticipate that it's going to be, um, an economic proposition.
So you see a huge, you can never say, okay, this is the hard and fast rule of, of what's going to make sense. Um, yes, just on a case-by-case basis. And this is part of the interesting. The interest in the industry is because it's growing so fast and because it's changing so quickly, you can't, what, what, six months ago doesn't necessarily work now on what was viable business model [00:14:00] six months ago.
Isn't necessarily right now. I mean, and we've learned that in spades in the past year, as you know, is it only available in the United States or is this world wide? That's a good question. It's one that we wrestle with every day. So. We have the surgery done only us and Canada. We have an increasing number of overseas inquiries and we do not have a couple of vendors that we can work with on that front.
Um, so, uh, primarily out of Europe, um, the we're seeing, um, a big, a step change in interest to have your. Okay. So can you walk us through the process? Okay. I'm a, I'm an entrepreneur. I just sold my a car dealership and I'm looking to get into, to CEA and I'm putting together a plan. I'm going to build a greenhouse and we'll set up a farm stand.
And what have you, um, Going, you know, you can go to the website contain.ag. Um, th th there kind of walks you through a little bit, but can you, can you walk us through the process for someone who's really kind of from the outside, looking in, [00:15:00] um, how, how that works and what kind of time frame we're talking about and things like that.
Sure. And so, um, we have, uh, uh, but can you also say interaction with the biosimilar is, is through someone like yourself, Joe? Um, so we normally get a referral or they come to us and they will say, you know, Joe and hydro, uh, said we should have a chat. Um, we typically have a initial discussion with folks just so they, um, they know we know where they are and they know where we are.
And then we have a, um, online [email protected] where they can start the application. Um, depending how complex the situation is. We can normally get rates back for simple situation. If you're buying a get growing bundle or a, um, uh, or a container farm, uh, and your personal financial situation straightforward.
Um, then we can normally get something back to you in a couple of days. Um, if you have the more complex [00:16:00] situations. So if you have some issues in your personal finance or, um, uh, or your doing something esoteric on your build, um, then it might take a little bit longer, but in either case we will, um, try to get at least a couple of quotes back to you.
Um, and then it's just a conversation from there. And so that process takes as long as the farmer needs it to take. Um, and we're normally ready to go a long time before the is ready to go, because they're typically negotiating their invoice. Um, with the manufacturer at that point. Um, and then, um, we handle the, um, or the lender and we help, uh, handle the payment to the vendor.
So the farmer doesn't have to worry about that. And they obviously have transparency upfront as to. Um, what their lease rates going to be. Um, and we, we are always happy to share documentation ahead of time. The last thing we want is for client to not know what they're getting into. Um, [00:17:00] and so we are utterly transparent on that front and always happy to share docs.
Well, that's fantastic. So in both your work with indoor ag con and your work with contained. Um, you've seen the industry from kind of a unique perspective. Um, what, what we usually are in the industry, worry, the growers or people who are looking to become growers or where technology providers we're trying to sell you on our systems and our technology.
Um, you're really looking at the industry. You're very involved in it, but you're really looking at it kind of from a different, different direction. So, what do you see as far as the let's, let's start with the past five or six years since you've really been involved, what are some of the major things in the industry that made the biggest changes and the most maybe surprising things that you've seen that kind of you had not expect?
Um, so a good question. And it's funny though, you know, as you like you, I don't spend a whole lot of time thinking about what's. [00:18:00] What's been, cause we spent so much time focused on what's coming next. Um, so I think, you know, one big one is the professionalization of the industry. So this used to be as you're, as you know, Joe having been involved much longer than they have.
It used to be that this was, um, uh, an industry you kind of just tend your hand to. Now we're starting to see a generation coming through folks who've trained in this at places like university of Arizona. Um, and through some of the other programs and what was her seeing folks coming at it in a, just a much more methodic fashion.
Um, so, um, that's definitely, and I don't know if you've seen that as well, Joe, that a change in the kind of management folks that are coming through now. Yeah, yeah. Uh, the, the involvement of people, I mean, we, we kind of started, you know, a few years back, even, um, more legacy people. We had growers, we had people that had been in the industry.
People may be coming over from other horticultural industries, uh, people with farming backgrounds. And [00:19:00] now yet it's a very different story. Um, When I was in college, I was, you know, most of my, I was in an ag college and most of my ag classes had, you know, 15 or 30 people in it. And, um, I went back to one of the classes just a few years ago and I lectured over 400 students about controlled environment agriculture.
And, and when I was in, in the same school, when I was there, Uh, everyone was a farmer. They had a family farm to go back to. Yeah, they were, or they were somehow very heavily involved in agriculture. And when I went back, um, we had a really great couple hours of, um, of discussion and I got to meet some of these people and almost none of them came from farming background.
So these were people from all walks of life in all areas. And just had an interest in agriculture and the controlled environment, agriculture technologies kind of, you know, that that was the key that unlocked the door, if you will, and gave people access because you know, even just, you know, 20 years ago, [00:20:00] if you didn't have a farm.
You know, it was very difficult to get involved in the industry. And now CA has allowed us the tools. You know, you can be, uh, a young entrepreneur in New York city. You can be a farm boy from Kansas or, uh, a former tech executive in Los Angeles and you all have kind of some equal footing. So there's a lot more information, um, making I started this, um, Podcast, mostly because there was so much misinformation in the industry.
So, so the amount of information that's available now versus maybe even five years ago, it was tremendous. One of the challenges is of course that there's a lot of misinformation as well. So. Like you, we spend a lot of time helping people navigate kind of learning the what's what's realistic. What's not what may be a good fit for them and whatnot.
Um, and you're just really doing that on the financial end. So, um, you know, [00:21:00] that's, there's been a lot there. So based on your observations, what, what do you see? You'd take out your, your Nicolas crystal ball here and, and just look a few years in the future. What do you see the industry doing? So, you know, I, I have no clue is, is the straight answer.
Like every time I think I know what's going to happen, something else completely different happens. Um, know I think the other, the other big trend, we just, I completely didn't expect was just the sharp rise in venture capital in the industry and in, um, investment capital. So, um, you know, in terms of going forward, um, Know for us.
I think we, we see kind of three things. One is obviously the continued development of technology, and we're seeing this new generation of, um, AI and automation and robotics now getting funded and significant amounts with people like who knew and, uh, some of the other, um, uh, um, more AI based, um, softwares, uh, starting to rise.
I don't, are you seeing those in the [00:22:00] farm yet? Uh, some, uh, there's a lot of skepticism, both with existing growers and kind of new people, new to the industry, um, or
skeptical farmers or farmers that are not willing to write the check right away. Um, certainly, and I, and I understand that, you know, based on, you know, previous situations in the industry, there's a lot of reason to be skeptical of a, of a technology, right. From an economic standpoint or an ROI. And I think that the more we get, not only the specific technology out there, but the advancements in technology and people will become hopefully more confident with those quick technological breakthroughs and be willing and able to implement them more rapidly.
Yeah. So I think that's definitely a big one. The second one that we see is, um, continuing sophistication or increasing sophistication of the finance [00:23:00] offerings. Um, and this is, you know, every industry I've ever looked at, um, that is maturing goes through the same path or the same journey where. Um, you start off with really very difficult access to capital and very awkward access to capital and, um, uh, without getting too geeky, you end up essentially having a misallocation of capital within the industry, um, by virtue of it being early.
Um, and then you start to see that change over time. And so it's really exciting for us in a, you know, sad finance, skeet kind of way that we're starting to see things like IPOs coming through, um, uh, with folks at cap harvest. Um, that's really the next being able to access that bigger pool of, of public capital is a really big moment I think, for the industry and we expect.
Um, we expect that to continue to, to become more and more sophisticated, um, or, or things like that to be a gateway, to much more sophisticated products, which for most farmers they're not, [00:24:00] um, they're not going to experience it day-to-day but what it will mean is lower rates going forward and, um, capital that's just much more appropriate to that their individual needs.
Um, so that's another big one. And then the one for us that we spent most of last year on is, uh, trying to understand how people get to the moment. Where they stopped farming. Um, so in, in what you do, Joe, you see folks, once they've already decided, um, this is what I'm going to do. Um, but we've been starting to think about, well, how do we get to the 80% of people who we know are going to become new farmers, but as they're thinking through that, as they're, they're starting to figure out what they want to do.
Um, and so I can talk a lot more about, um, Uh, about what that that's led us to do differently. It contained cause it really has transformed our thinking over the past year. And what are you doing for the education side? Um, you know, you're, uh, that, that 80% of people that are, are going to be the farmers, uh, [00:25:00] besides the indoor ag con, are you doing any other things to educate the people?
Yeah. And so we're not involved in India icon anymore. NEC we sold that at the end of 2018. So that's um, um, uh, with other people now the, um, but we do have a new approach to education. So during lockdown last year, or when I was aware that. When it became clear that we were all going to get locked down. I reached out to half a dozen people who I know who I really like and think are really smart.
Um, but just don't get to spend enough time with, and they said, Hey, we're all going to have more time now. How about we spend an hour a week just chatting. And one of those was, um, a French woman called Isabel to search who runs a family office in Singapore called ID capital. And she and I were both getting asked by people like, how do I start a garden at home?
How do I stop growing some of my own veggies at home? And you know, neither of us have any clue. I know I don't have the first clue how to grow anything. [00:26:00] And so we started researching and trying to understand what was out there and by the way of resources and what we found was a lot of our long shaky YouTubes with, um, a lot discussion of lattice roots that didn't make a whole lot of sense to a lay person.
Um, and we started to think there's gotta be a better way to do this. Um, Isabel has two, um, teenage sons. Um, and so we started trying the ideas out on them. We basically said like, you know, would you watch this? Is this something you'd listened to? Do you listen to podcasts? Do you listen to, um, you know, do you, what do you watch YouTube?
Um, do you need something that's longer than a tech talk video, et cetera, et cetera. And eventually from that we created rooted. And what we do at rooted is we tell, um, we tell stories with a goal. So our stories are things like, how do I grow the perfect lettuce, or how do I grow my favorite mushrooms or one more in preproduction on at the moment is, um, how do I grow my favorite cocktail [00:27:00] ingredients?
So, um, in each case they are anywhere from 10 to 20 episodes. They're all under five minutes and it's a combination of podcasts video. Um, they're fronted by, um, Instagram influencers and we shoot them all over the world. So we've shot in the U S. Thailand, um, Singapore and we're shortly going to shoot in China, Joe.
I know you very kindly, uh, uh, contributed to one of them. That was a lot of fun, uh, which was, which was really cool. And we bring together, um, everyone from experts like go to home growers and their experiences to, uh, chefs. Uh, we have a collaboration with a group called cookbook, um, which has digitized, um, Uh, many thousands of classic books.
So you can go from, as you growing your lettuce to having, um, a chef walk you through what to do with it, um, and different recipes that you can at your [00:28:00] school. Um, and so we're really trying to bring the joy back into the process of, of learning how to farm. Um, yeah, so that's, that's what we do at rigid.
That's fantastic. I'm assuming that's really taking off. It's funnily enough. And I don't know if I told you the story, Jim, but when we were, when Isabel and I were planning it, we were, we were thinking, well, Hey, we know nothing about production and B. We know nothing about microlearning. Um, so who knows if this will work?
So we said, okay, let's write our list of our five dream clients. And if we can get one of them to agree to a pilot, then we'll do this. Um, and we decided the approach that we're taking is we're working with corporate wellness, um, and human resources groups at large corporates. And we're doing that intentionally because it gets us to a bigger audience faster.
Um, and so we went down our list and we stopped at number four because all four of them said, yes, Um, and we launched in September, [00:29:00] um, launch clients, adult the known and a very large tech company. Um, and yeah, it's been an amazing experience today. We just, uh, actually yesterday we just launched in Korea with doll.
So we're moving into, um, into other countries. Now we're out of pilot phase.
Wow. So what else do you do in your spare time? Geez, well, you know, this is, um, we're really fortunate to contain that we just raised a round of funding on new year's Eve. And so that's allowing us to hire like crazy. Um, and we just think that there's so more, that so much more that we can do to be of service to the industry.
Um, and you know, Joe, you and I have talked about this in the past year. It's very easy to, um, To, uh, replicate what's already out there. Um, but this is an industry that still has a lot of pieces of the financial infrastructure missing. Um, and we feel like we can play a role in, in helping to [00:30:00] remedy that.
We definitely don't want to be of service to the industry rather than, um, uh, rather than, uh, the opposite. Fantastic. Well, we definitely need more of that. That's for sure. Now I do have a question. Um, and we kind of asked everybody this question when they come on, if you can, uh, travel back into time and ask and tell your younger self some advice, what would that be?
Uh, gosh, that's a good one, Tom. I should've known this one was coming, right. I supposed to be prepped for this one. And, um, so I think the. The thing I would probably have done is, is, um, thrown caution to the wind a lot sooner. Um, and I'm really, you know, inspired by a lot of the, the gen Z folks that we have around us now, um, because they are not as wet to this kind of traditional path in life.
Um, uh, and I'm kind of, I know, or if their ability to, you know, juggle half a dozen gigs, Um, and I wish [00:31:00] I'd just taken that approach a lot sooner, you know, there's, I think there's a presupposition that your, your, you have to be allied to a, a large company or to a specific career path. Um, and yeah, so, so I think, and I don't know if that's me learning from my, my younger self or me learning from gen ed.
I'm not quite sure which way around that goes. So, um, any last thoughts, any, any parting shots for the audience? Obviously, you know, people that are listening to this podcast really have run across the gamut. I mean, we have people that just enjoy listening to podcasts. We have people that are hardcore commercial growers.
We have people who are just hobbyists, who are kind of interested, but from your perspective of the industry, if you had to kind of give some advice to your, you know, your younger self, obviously that's. That's one thing. Um, do you have anything for the industry, for the people out there that are listening just involved in, in, as you know, as per some of your other work food in general, uh, agriculture, that connection between us and our food [00:32:00] and all the way into control the environment, agriculture.
Um, do you have any, any last thoughts for, for everyone out there listening? So, you know, I don't think I would have a presumed to tell anyone in the industry what to do. Cause I feel like, you know, we learned from them rather than the other way round. Um, but, um, you know, folks interested in learning about financing, um, contained to ag, um, if they are, I'm interested in microlearning, whether that's, you know, participating in one of our stories or, um, if maybe they're part of a, um, a corporation that might like to give Richard a shot, then that website is rudy.global.
Um, And, uh, yeah, I think those are the two, the two, uh, uh, parting things I would leave you with. Excellent. And we'll, we'll make sure for where people that are checking in with us, um, we'll make sure we make that information available to you so you can reach out and hopefully educate yourself and, and use what you've learned today to help move yourself forward.
So, Nicola, thank you so much. Not only for everything that you're [00:33:00] doing in the industry, but for taking time out of your busy schedule. I know you're on a late call already. So, so we really appreciate your time and sharing of your knowledge and experience and, uh, look forward to hearing from you again soon and following your work.
Yep. Thank you guys so much. Can't wait to hear this turns out. Excellent looking forward to, well, I that's another episode, everyone. Thank you very much for listening. Uh, please feel free to keep sending in your, uh, show suggestions, guests suggestions, and of course your questions. We're compiling quite a, quite a list.
So Nick and I'll be back to, uh, to answer a bunch of those questions later, but in the meantime, I'd like to thank Nicola for her time and thank you for your time and hope everyone has a great day.