019: Grahame Dunling - WorldWide Local Salads

In this episode Joe and Nick interview Grahame Dunling about his extensive career in vertical farming. Vertical farming allows us to grow healthy, accessible foods within a few acres of land, close to home.

Grahame Dunling, together with son Matthew, has launched WorldWide Local Salads, bringing vertical farming to the city where the rich rural hinterlands saw the family well for more than 100 years.

More about Grahame Dunling:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/grahame-dunling

More about Joe Swartz:
Website: https://amhydro.com/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/HydroConsultant

More about Nick Greens:
Website: https://www.nickgreens.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/InfoGreens

Transcript

Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of the poly greens podcast. I'm Joe Swartz from M hydro, along with my good friend, Nick greens and the Nick greens grow team. And I'm going to have a very fun show for you today. I'm very happy to have probably one of the most, if not the most experienced the professional in the controlled environment ag industry.

Um, just a little background about, uh, 12, 13 years ago, um, was running a full-time farm myself controlled environment, farm in Massachusetts and doing a lot of consulting. I was traveling a lot and I'm just starting to navigate this whole social media new platform. And, um, there were so many, uh, I think LinkedIn was probably the primary platform at the time.

And I engage in a lot of conversations with people about vertical farming, indoor farming, greenhouse farming, controlled environment ag. And there were a lot of people, a lot of business people, a lot of investors, and there were some, um, How should we put this delicately some very robust discussions, uh, online.

And there were a lot of people from outside the industry that had a lot of ideas about how, um, vertical farms should be set up or greenhouse farms. And there's arguments about is aquaponics better aeroponics, hydroponics, all of these different discussions. And of course, I, I, I got involved in many of those discussions and, um, it was quite frustrating to say the least in, in many cases.

And, um, one day I started noticing comments being made in discussions by a gentleman from the UK. And he had a picture of himself from his greenhouse with one of his plants. And I'm like, Oh, okay. This guy is a grower. And I started reading his commentary and he always talked about proper horticultural techniques.

He, he talked about growing and growing means from growing high quality high yields of crops. To also doing it in an economically sustainable manner. In other words, he understood that this industry was not about flashy systems or even necessarily high yields or high output, but the combination of the productivity, the economics and everything else about it was like, this guy is music to my ears.

And, uh, and so we became, uh, friends online. Um, but 10 years ago now I was fortunate enough to travel over to Europe and, uh, Graham and I spent some time in, uh, Holland and, um, you know, we just had many discussions about a controlled environment. A and we knew the industry was growing very rapidly and there was going to be some tremendous opportunities, but also because people tend to kind of gravitate toward just singular technological solutions, if you will.

And, uh, we knew there were going to be a lot of challenges. And so we kind of decided we, we, we, uh, we joined forces in many different ways and we, we, uh, had great discussions with people all over the world about controlled environment had gravitas. And I, I've got to say that, um, to watch him, uh, over in the UK while I was in the States, then to see him traveling over the middle East.

And, uh, and now he's coming come full circle and he's back in the UK, but in the meantime, and all those years, he has done some amazing work and really innovated the industry, both in terms of greenhouse production, indoor warehouse production, you name it, he's done it. Um, I think, uh, I believe me, um, I believe he's a fifth generation grower and, uh, and I'm really pleased and honored to introduce to you my friend and colleague, um, Mr.

Graham, Dunlin. And, uh, probably most of you already know course, but, uh, but for those of you who don't, he's got a fascinating story. He's got a lot of really valuable information. So with all that said, Graham, I want to thank you very much for joining us today. And, uh, we're looking forward to having some great conversations.

So you can tell, tell people who don't know you a little bit about your background, where you came from and what got you here. Yeah. Hi. Hi Nick. Thanks for inviting me on. Um, yeah, I started in the industry, like I said, I'm a fifth generation, so we're back. I'm slightly older than juror. So been there, done.

That is nothing to be proud of. It's a case of, you know, our edge. We should the bane, but uh, yeah, late June, I started off growing in open field and then into an old Dutch light greenhouse, and then we moved into the Venlo greenhouses. And that was a case of light indoor warehouse growing as if you like, what year was this gram?

What year was this gram that you started this? Oh, come on. Net teens, 77. I left college. I think it was, I think the fifth 70, some, some, some 70, 78, 79. I left agricultural college and I, I walked out the college and I was working for my dad. And then I, I left my dad. I walked out and started renting in it and failed on my own.

And then Nana started to rent a R entered some greenhouses. Then I bought some open land. I built greenhouses on the land, built a shed, built roadways, built a house, built a package shed. And then there was the recession in the UK. Natine 89 and I lost everything because I wasn't a limited company or anything.

And I made the stupid mistake of, I own the land, which I've bought and paid in cash. Everybody advised me to start a limited company and rent the land off myself. I never did. So when we lost the company, we lost all the assets as well. So then I started working for other people. Didn't like it. I started going consulting and just work in six months and 12 months for companies.

And what year, what year did you get into the consulting business? Oh, that was about, um, well, after I lost my own business, we went to a company called Preston masteries and I took over the full running of that, doing everything there. Uh, that was earned by a farmer who wasn't interested in. Greenhouses.

Basically he wrote all the debt off, gave me a bank account, gave me chatbots and said, when there's no money, you haven't got a job. So I said about a salary and he says, check out what your light does that in the bank, empty it and walk away. So we ran that for 10 years and he turned up one day and said, I have some bad news.

I'm going to make you redundant. I've sold the business. So that was another, thank you very much at the time, Graham. Sorry. What were you growing at the time? There was growing celery, 10,000 heads of celery, a day, a thousand boxes of lettuce, a day, 12 heads in a box. So 12,000 heads of lettuce every day and doing 5,000 pundits of charity matters every day.

So we was large scale. We was the first people to have a color cherry tomato grid. We worked with grief to develop that one. So, you know, um, when I had my own nationally, before that we was the first people to use a computerized irrigation system. I helped pre-ver do their first computer irrigation system in a greenhouse in the UK.

So we go back a long way sort of if you like and helping companies. And then I went round companies stayed there for six months, 12 months on a contract, turning them around and then moving on because I got bored doing the same thing day in, day out. So it was going show them what they're doing wrong, teach the staff and then go on to the next project.

So it was always something new, something different, something exciting. So you were always going, bringing your expertise into an existing facility, kind of imparting that on the staff and the management, showing them what to do, and then just kind of setting your sights on the next and the next opportunity, correct?

Yeah. Yeah. And then, uh, that, I mean, that took me, we started FDM Herb's in 2005, which stood for fresh dried and Micra. Um, we grew micro greens as a living product.

What were some of the methods that you were using Graham? Well, well, when we started fresh dried, fresh strata, micro FDM, when we started that we helped develop two types of in-app media. So we was doing the internet media for microgreens. So it was a case of growing on compost and then growing up on the internet media, selling a living product to the chefs so that they have is a bit putting it fresh on the plates.

And then from there we saw a company, a to Treacher called bowel center that had the vertical growth system. And they said, after talking to them, they said, Oh, we'll put our system free of charge on your Mashery. And if you promote it. And I said, there's no way. He said why? I said it will never wear, um, after a few months of emails and telling them how to do things, the 10 drowned, they rang me up and they said, you know, was I interested in joining then?

And I said, what's wrong with the person who was there? And he said, Oh, well, he's left. We've sell the system. He's left. We found out he was getting all his information from you. Are you interested in the job because we've selled the system and we haven't got one that works. So they gave me, uh, they offered me a job and basically I was wearing a shirt and a tie first class travel.

I had a company Kassar for the first time in years, it was so shirt and tie and being a businessman instead of jeans and a t-shirt and getting death. So, so I thought, why the hell not, this was a vertical system in a greenhouse, correct? That was a vertical system integrate now. Yeah. So we fully automated that and it was out and in 2000, the Nan and that's, well-documented on YouTube and all over.

Well, yeah, it's a vertical growing fully off to system and F T or is it a hybrid? That was an average. I had designed the tray to meet the tray fit the system they're hard. So it was like a  trip. I had to design the trip because it was on hangers coming down from a overhead system. So it was an overhead system, a bit late planters, but there had hangers coming down and the hangers would like a hitch hanger.

So I had to design a tray that stood on that. Uh, and then when it went round the corners, the trays wouldn't do it. So I designed the Goldwing tray so that when it went into the corners, the gold wings just slipped into one another. Um, you know, with millimeter precision, it saddened the calmer, uh, So picture a, a, a dry cleaners rack where you have those long overhead conveyors where basically these trays hanging down are moving around throughout the green.

Yeah. And then that company moved to Canada and promptly didn't require the UK team anymore. They'd be automated. It, they changed the name from vertical crop to, um, local greens. I think it was or something like that. Did they still use  name, but then they were, they were up in British Columbia. Yeah. Yeah.

And then, then they built the system on top of a car pack lot in Vancouver. Then they went bankrupt a few years later. And during that time I had moved to Hong Kong through a. Friend of man that was, uh, becoming a customer of vowel scent. And then when they found that less Val sent, they worked with me. So I moved to Hong Kong and we built a vertical fam on the 13th floor of a warehouse.

So I spent time in Hong Kong and around China and places right now, not for the viewer, not for the viewers. Graham, do you want to describe how big these vertical towers were? The size of them? Well, the, um, the verti crop one was in, uh, a greenhouse. It was five meters high and it had a lot of racks going around.

The one they built in Vancouver was taller. Um, they had to go up and down on scissor lifts and things like that. Where in the UK, it was an automatic. Loader automatic, unloading automatic irrigation, automatic seeding answer. You know, there's no comparison, rarely, you know, I mean it's and cheese. If you look up Virgin crop, uh, Virta crop online.

There's plenty of images. Exactly what Graham was talking about. The best thing I like about it is even today that a lot of people still use the virtual crop picture, that school grow in an ad to get a hit. Me and royalties.

Yeah. Yeah. So then I was after Hong Kong, I got a phone call from Cher crushy then Barron said they'd built a greenhouse and there was having problems. Could I go and console. They'd been given man them. And I thought it was a jerk. I kept trying to think of one of my mates. So was trying to wind me up what then I thought, well, I don't have that many minutes.

So it narrowed the field a lot, you know? So I ended up, I went to Barron on the three day consultancy and I ended up staying in the middle East for over seven years. So that was at peninsula FAMs in Barron. And we ended up there had 45,000 square meters of greenhouses. And I believe you'll consulted for a company in our man, correct.

Around that same time. And because you rang me up and said about the system. That you was consulting. And I said, yes, it said exactly the same as I was having it in back rain. Yep. And, you know, we both said then how did these people get to put these systems in Nana? Because they had all the workings, but nothing seemed to work in harmony.

Well, I remember the company that I had consulted for didn't I had recommended some major changes to the system and they didn't want to go with that. So of course we parted directions and I know that you had taken that same system with peninsula and you had modified it correctly to make it work appropriately.

And that was quite successful. Wasn't it? Yeah. I mean, they're still growing today and I saw an image on Instagram that Moran put on. The lado runs it now. And I said to him, I said, Oh, wow, well, nice to see. You're still there into matters. And he put yesterday, you taught as well. Because when I went there was still just growing tomatoes up to eight trusses where I taught them how to layer a crop of tomatoes.

But when we led the crop, I mean, we was the first company in the middle East to grow tomatoes all through the summer because I had to modify a pattern fan greenhouse to make it work through the summer. And you know, it sounds easy, but when it's 55 degrees outside the net to present, you admitted say, and you bring in pattern Fannin.

It's not exactly coming easy to cool it down. So a serious environmental challenge, I redesigned a wind turbine to fit inside the big fan. And when the big fans come on, the winter band, moved with the air and that provided enough electricity back to the socket to run the fan. So once the fan had kicked in, it didn't cost any more money to keep roaming.

Then we ended up, we channeled that curl there from the fan back inside the greenhouse. So instead of it coming out the greenhouse and going to West, it was cold air coming out, the green, I was going back into the green now. So we made a pattern fan a bit like closed greenhouse. So we totally thinking outside the box, you know, doing a, a gray and buildling complete outside the box.

This work work well. How do you know it will work? Oh, it works. Nobody's tried it. So when you try it and it doesn't work, then tell me it doesn't work until you've done it. Don't say it doesn't work. And. Basically. I mean, that's what I do. That's what I've done all the time. I mean, um, from peninsula FAMs, I moved to Dubai and I built the first in the house, vertical fam in Dubai.

And again, that's still running yeah. Today. And we built that system anyway. Everybody was telling us, Oh, that's the wrong way you do do it like that. But my Villa customer in electricity to run them the fan, but to, you know, it's okay. Thinking outside the box, if you like. I mean, I was the first person to use Dominelli de vag of the new investee.

I even asked me, why are you using Dimon, Debian, LEDs. What's the point. Then a few years later, you get a question, you know, If you tell us how your are LEDs work, we'll tell you the science behind it. But as you, well, nerd, you, I'm not the scientific guy. I, I don't want to know how something works. I just need to know it.

It works. Yeah. You need to, you need to get the results. Yeah. Three is good. There is people say I'm I'm wrong. I'm doing things wrong. Brilliant. And the one who has got, uh, I'm the one that was growing strawberries inside. I'm the one who is growing chilies inside. I'm the one that was growing red Lexus, green lettuce, micro hubs, edible flowers, all under the same spectrum led to adults and the space rockets up to the sun and go and grow into matters in this greenhouse.

Can you send me this particular spectrum on this green out, by the way, I've got lettuce in that greenhouse. Can you send me this spectrum? Thank you, Mr. Song, you know, so her. Why, why do I need an led specific? I mean, everybody goes for the red blue, the red Dyer and the fairer dire, the cheapest dyads and the give them more light for less energy.

So it's producing, uh, uh, micromole light, uh, using less energy. But I mean, I still see people wearing some glasses inside the vertical growing system. I've never worn them. Y you know, walking into macro in facilities, like you're walking into your greenhouse. Surely I agree with you JIA the SIM and the greenhouse grows the best plants.

So if I'm in a warehouse, why do I want to bring the sun inside the warehouse? The, the, the concept of reinventing the wheel. Um, for innovation, of course, there are certain circumstances and applications for that, but really what you're looking to do. And this is why Graham's approach has always been so appealing to me, um, outside of the fact that it produces great results is that it's, it's predicated on understanding exactly what the plants need.

Um, no more, no less. And providing that using technology, we're not building a technology that we're trying to force the plants to live in. We're trying to literally build all of our technologies around what the crop growth requires, and there's a horticultural aspects and there's economic aspects that you have to take into consideration.

So grant, when you, when you moved over to Dubai and you, you went with body and you went indoors, um, a lot of the people are kind of interested in the technologies, you know, what you had to change in terms of your approach. And it doesn't sound like you changed a whole lot. You just used the tools that presented themselves in an indoor setting.

Is that, is that how you, how you looked at it? Yes. So tough. I mean, um, when, when I looked at a lot of issues, I could instantly see what was wrong. Um, uh, lots of people even today scream out, Oh, we have the best high back system for cooling the warehouse. I don't care. He was the best system you've got in the whole world.

I don't use havoc so managed wrong, but Hey, it works. So you keep using havoc. If you use havoc, it drives the humidity out, you know, so then you've got to add, add humidity to it. And so if you're adding everything like that, you create an issue is to solve a problem. Is that, that that type of system is designed for human, uh, comfort or for everybody who builds a warehouses juror goes to a architectural company or, uh, things like that.

And the design, an office type or a warehouse building for humans. Yeah, I don't, I don't care what you feel like in the warehouse, as long as the pants are okay, you can sweat and, you know, wipe your brow and have a drink. And the plants, the plants that are the ones that I want to look after. I got a question for you, Graham.

So you were growing everything under the same spectrum. All these varieties was the nutrient formula the same as well. No, no. I mean, again, that's the whole thing. I mean, Joe and I have had this conversation with a very good friend of ours who loves aquaponics. Um, I mean his app said it's got to be a very clever fish that compute the nutrient for the feed for a lettuce, and then it poops the feed for a tomato plant.

What does it do? You know? Ex greet it's three seasons, uh, send that one to that head of lettuce and then excrete two feces. And so those two go to the tomato because it wants more nutrients. Um, so how does an aquaponic system work? Oh, it grows plants. I've seen a head of lettuce. I mean, I went over, I was in  2012.

I think it was. And I saw a head of lettuce. The lettuce leaf was the Sal says have a latch dinner plate. And I said to the chef, I said, I can put this on my feet, walk 10 miles coming back from it and still be there. The chef said to me, so would that's the best lettuce we can get? I said, Oh wow. You so want to test some of my salads.

And I was at Chicago airport and I thought, Oh, I'll just have burger and fries. Cause I had a two hour window where it's in for the fight connection. And I remember I took a photograph and I sent it to my wife and I said, all I all did was a cheeseburger and fries. Look at it, feed six people.

So, um, a lot of people are listening to us. They don't, they can't see we're on a zoom call right now. And, and Graham has in his background and right behind him, he's got a, a nice close-up photograph of a beautiful strawberry and strawberries, of course, in controlled environment ag and kind of one of the big, the big question marks.

And everybody's very interested and there's very few growers, um, who have really nailed the productivity, the environmental nutritional management, um, as well as the economics of it, everybody says, Oh, if you had year round strawberries, You know, the world will beat a path to your door. And that's really not true because the market is still very competitive to grow.

High quality strawberries is, is much more exacting and much more challenging than say leafy greens. Coupled that with the fact that now you're, you're taking it to a completely indoor setting. And that's one of the things that Graham has now innovating. And again, he's using that horticultural approach.

So, so Graham, so let's kind of go full circle and now you're, you're heading back to the UK and you are doing some very innovative work indoors. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Well, it started with Brexit in Corona and being in Dubai everywhere. I've gone as, as you well know, you I'm, uh, considered a garment grower.

I grew up with quality chest texture, add soon to grow a hundred plants that everybody goes, Oh, why were these a soup than 300 plants that any Tom Dick and Harry can grow? If you want to go to. The cheapest supermarket and buy your salad. You work fan, man, if you want the salad that you lead tests and you've got some flavor and you enjoy a Neil, go back then you'll Batman.

And I mean, that's been proven time and time again. It was predominantly so in Dubai where I was the CEO of them's FAMs and we increased sales from January, 2022 to November 20, 20 bad, 10 times. So even though it was Corona, we increased sales and increased productivity because of the quality of the product.

And my son said, it's about Tammy coming back to the UK because all the salads here, uh, not very good.

Similar, my wife was complaining because my daughter had the daughter, so we have a granddaughter and she was bombed. My birthday is may of the 15. And she was born on may 16 to, you know, ship. We have the granddaughter she's two this year, but we'd only seen her when she was bombed for 10 days. And that was it.

We was back in Dubai and then with Corona and the flights, we didn't see her. So my wife was saying, Oh, we're missing out on the grandchild growing up and everything. So we decided to come back to the UK and we asserted along with Matthew worldwide local salads, because what I want to do is grow salads worldwide, all to the same standard.

So I want to be like a McDonald's or a Starbucks, you know, where wherever you go in the world, you will have the same salad. And it's got the same varieties grown with the same seeds, the same system, same nutrients, everything. We've had that conversation on this podcast where people ask about, um, flavor and nutritional content of plants and, uh, you know, the discussion about whether organic production produces better flavor and more nutrition or conventional.

And we we've talked about the fact that really three things are, and only three things dictate the nutritional and flavor quality of the plant. And one is of course the cultivar and variety two is the physical environment, the temperature, light humidity, et cetera. And then third is the nutritional environment and that's it.

Um, well there's another one jurors you Welner. I mean, if I said to you, how would you grow a plant? There are two definitions. There's growing a plant, all those growing. Uh, exactly by laughing, you know exactly what I mean by that you serve the seeds and you wait for it to have is that's. The plant is growing all the reeds, the  professional grow, aware that you grow even ahead of lettuce.

How Y you manipulate when you serve the seeds, you start off germination. It comes into the national stage. What's the mastery stage. Do you sweat the plant? When it first comes out with germination, do you force a plan? Do you grow the plan or do you let the plant grow? That's a blueprint temperature because the book says this and when you do it to how a commercial grower builds it, you do the blueprint is a definition, but it's again, But then the grower tweaked those gadgets to make the plant grow.

And as you well know, take it to matter. How does it matter to get right? How does the tomato drop off the plant? It stress. If you stress it to master plan, it re-pins quicker. It drops on the floor because it suites because it suites them, bear certain and the seeds. And it's there for the next generation as a grower.

If you stress and cause that stress in the plant, but then bring it back to life at the correct term, then you get the sweetness in the fruit. You get the sweetness in the leaves that's called growing the plants. That's what just Watts as a grower. That's what Brian bumbling is a grower. That's what. We do in our profession, we grow plants.

We don't let the plants grow. We grow plants. Correct. Exactly. And that's where the discussion comes about. Uh, well, I don't like the hydroponic crops because they don't have flavor. I don't like this. It's grown this way because it's not as nutritious. And that's really a fallacy. It's about the growing it's about, it's about providing all of those parameters what's needed when it's needed, how it's needed and allowing that plant to grow to its maximum potential.

By again, to your point, you're manipulating all of those factors, but controlled environment ag is all about, and that's why your salads are so flavorful, so consistent and, and, and have shelf life. When we were talking off air about the shelf life. And that's one of the other issues is that. Um, yes, post-harvest handling how you refrigerate it at one temperatures, et cetera has a big factor in sharp life, but really the quality of the plant, the, the, the, the healthier a plant, um, by far the better post-harvest quality you have.

So your buyers, you were telling us about off air, you know, we're, we're letting the salad sit for over a week just to see what it would do. And the, and the salad is as good as the pressure pick, because again, it was a healthy plant provided, you know, provided the parameters that you gave it as a grower.

Yeah. But the forget, I mean, you know, you buy all these modern systems. You don't need to be a grower. I mean, I went, you know, I can't wait for restaurants to open because I'm going to ask the chef why the hell is in the kitchen? Because I put a joint of beef in the oven for 20 minutes. Give it 20 minutes extra.

Hey, I'm a chef. I don't need a chef. What, what what's he wasting his time for Russ potatoes? I take a potato, I chop it into quarters and I, some oil on it and I put it in the oven. I've got roast potatoes. Why do I need to share? So, you know, it said exactly the same as a grower. We were redundant. Yeah. You add sufficient intelligence.

Does it. So her, you know, we have to make the artificial intelligence work for us. It serves artificial intelligence, serves me getting up at three o'clock in the morning, changing the temperatures, giving the plant some nutrients and doing, because that's the way I grow. 40 years ago, I used to have to get out of bed at two o'clock in the morning and go water my plants and turn the heat in apart.

Turn the heating down just for three hours, because that's what I want it to do. Computers and artificial intelligence allows me. If I grow to a blueprint, then at six o'clock in the morning, I go from 17 degrees on a night to 22 and at six o'clock on a night, I go from 22 batters 17 or so, because they're time nighttime.

That's what the blueprint is. I've never known a daytime stats at six and finish at six and keep the same light level all there. So, and when my granddad was growing, we had the best flavor plants admitted. We used to put bullet moat around the ropes and things like that on tomatoes, cucumbers, peppers, you know, used to plant them in the soil.

And then you use the pack. The first. 10 12 inches of the burst with long what we go along the new and, you know, cow mocha, bullet milk. I mean, good. God you'd get shot now. Cause we used to eat our sandwiches without washing their hands. Yeah. So when, when you granddad was growing versus now when you're growing the, the laws of horticulture and what the plants need has not changed one bit, we have great technological tools to allow us to better serve that plant, but the plant is the plant and what it needs is what it needs.

Yeah. I mean, I, on the ground that has, like I said, I mean, I used to go to bed at 11 o'clock and get up. It sort of happens two, three o'clock in the morning. I don't have to deal with that now because the computer can change everything. We still change those parameters that, you know, I mean, Alison to a talk.

I was invited to a talk with karma, will you invest? So you're on about doing strawberries and how will there was growing strawberries. And there was almond. I was listening and I thought I'm already doing that. And they said, Oh, we're going to reset the light and we're doing this and we're going to do that.

Now I was doing that last year. Why, why am I listening? What am I learning? You know? And it's, I mean, I've talked to you in the vest is I was talking to a university the other day and they said what there was going to do. We're going to, we're looking at creating a program that can control the water levels in the tank to the wall, to the feed nutrition.

So this in the button up, we've been doing that for 20 years. What is the state of the industry? You know, there's so many vertical farming companies that are offering all these gross systems. And then we'll contest it, you know, but the wa grower plan, and what we have to do is decide as a commercial grower, are you growing a commercial crop or are you growing?

Because it looks really good and I'm sorry, but most investors do it because it looks really good. And the given numbers that the adult, but when a commercial grower, I mean, you've seen it as well as they are when you've talked to investors only to terms of the cold, you, you know, you don't know what you're doing here.

I mean, that's why you and I have, you know, good, full head of hair. Yeah. We've just been scratching our heads. How the hell did they do that? How well it's, uh, you know, it's, it's every day in the greenhouse or every day in the grow room is, is research and it's experimentation. And I hope that. People are getting out of this conversation, listening to Graham and Graham's, um, his path is that he has for the past 40 plus years been learning.

He's been in the classroom every single day and he's been doing it. Um, and his successes are coming from that experience. And a lot of the lot of the experiences Graham and I both know, come from a lot of failures. Um, but, uh, but that's what teaches us. And, and, and so to continue, uh, to develop the technology as a tool to, again, to achieve our outcome is, is just kind of a natural progression.

I got one question for you, Graham. Um, if you can go back into time and tell, uh, you know, a teenage gram, some advice, what would that advice be?

So, and so what people think and get on in the world? The worst thing is telling that, telling the truth, because people don't want to know the true.

No, it would be, um,

do what I'm doing now. I would have done things different. Yeah. But I mean, when I lost my business, we paid all the debts off. We did everything. Did it the right way. Was it the right way? I don't know. You know, it didn't make me a rich man. It made me a poor man, but you know, we did the right thing. I mean, if I knew then what I know now I would have been slightly more aggressive on the maps in front.

I mean, I never started coming out in the public eye until a roundabout. 2014, 15, something like that. Whereas where before then, like I said, I mean, I've, I've helped companies develop tomato. Gridders I've helped how Africa Aspen has developed as I've helped. Two are automatic ventilation, automatic irrigation.

I've been involved in a lots of firsts for the industry. It's just, they didn't, nobody has been aware of it because I helped companies develop things because it helps me as a grower. Whereas now everybody look what I've done. I've planted a head of lettuce. Six by six or seven by seven or whatever. And it's on the internet and the show in how will fascinate in the ad doing X, Y, and Z, whereas added things to sermons, juror, because as a grower, it helps me as a grower and I wasn't there for the publicity.

I was there to grow a better crop. And that was the primary aim one. Now everything is about getting out there, getting, learn and doing that. I mean, there are people in the industry that people are fast, ah, more well-known than I am. Um, they've been growing two years, you know, yet it goes back. It goes back to what me and Joe talk about is just really good marketing with no experience behind them.

Yeah. I mean, you know, I've started worldwide local salads. I mean, people said to me, well, I needed an advisory board. You need people on the board who can tell you what to do and how to do it. So I said, Hmm, go on. Then I was, I was named some people in the industry or should be on the advisory board. And I said, no, okay.

If it's like that, then I asked my good friend and a very good grower if he wants to be on my, a battery board. And I'm sat here talking to him now. So just in the public demand, welcome to the advisory board juror. You are the one grill with the, I do 200% respect and you've got to teach me everything you know about indoor warehouse.

I appreciate that so much Graham, because I don't think there's anybody in the industry that I have had more respect for. Um, because of your accomplishments and because of how you approach things and, and everything that you've taught me. And, uh, and as we said before, I think that I, hopefully my, my name, uh, doesn't doesn't hurt your business, but certainly I'm, I'm pleased and honored to be, you know, involved with, um, you know, all, all of the great people in this industry and you are definitely right there.

And so, so, so working with you and all is, is, is my honor and my privilege. And, um, speaking of which though, you, uh, you know, you talked about, you know, you really, you learned kind of, you know, alongside your granddad and your father, um, but you've got a young man that's involved in your business pretty heavily now.

And, and we we've mentioned him briefly, but maybe you could tell us a little bit, a bit more about the, uh, the next generation has done links who are, uh, definitely on tap to do some big things in this industry. So this is sixth generation, right? Yes, you've seen, you've seen mass. Andrea is her big, glad he said the least.

Um, and no, he's not in my company. I'm in his company. He's the CEO of worldwide local salads, um, on a day pass and advance in mentoring him and showing him the fan and fan the points of growing Matthew was at FDM Herb's with me back in 2005. So he's been in the industry since then. Um, as I said, we was growing live in micro greens then for the top chefs.

So he's been involved in the industry, but like myself has been in the background of the industry. So when we come back, I thought, you know, Matthew is a CEO, it's his company. Um, well it's, I mean, we're shareholders of the company. Um, so yeah, I mean, he's going to be leading in the direction. He's a lot more technical man.

The grower than I am is very fan and sorry, inserted with spreadsheets and cafes and everything like that is the number cruncher is, you know, um, a good old fashioned grower. So, and again, I mean, as we said, I mean, old joke in the past, I mean, I have said you are a grower that I respect and yeah, Maya and we have been friends for a long term and you'll bring a lot to the table that add a half in the technical approach, or we say you're more, you're more.

Technically man did, if you like, but I come from the growing background and either I have had very little issues with vitritis milled you, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, I had to look at the issues of the plant because I've, I don't give the plant any problems growing. I give it the correct environment.

People say to me, Oh, you get root diseases in hand robotics or deep water culture, the crown of the plant, this, it gets so wet and you get 50 and you get this. Well, I must be doing something really wrong because I don't, I've never suffered with those. And again, as you well know you, but to have a  system, a deep water culture system, the hydroponic system is the filtration.

Yeah, you can reset, reset, circulate the water. 20 times a day, four times a day, if you don't filter it correctly, the more you research it, the more diseases you're putting around to more plants. Yeah. People always talk to me about a disease problem that they're having. And they're trying to look to how to sterilize everything or, or keep that disease from ever entering the greenhouse.

And I said, no, he said, that's a, that's a function of improperly managing your environment and improperly managing your nutrient. And by managing it properly, and filtration is a big part of that oxygenation, temperature, pH, et cetera. Um, if you're managing those correctly, just as a, as your body is your human body is healthy and strong.

You have the resistance to deal with the constant bombardment of everything that we've got coming at us at all times. It's when you become weakened, that is when you're susceptible to things. And of course our plants are the same way. We're, uh, we're definitely, um, you know, looking at, you know, different physiological disorders and disease issues and past issues to another extent.

And it's, that's a function of improperly managing every, everybody. How many times have you heard people say, I grow inside of where else? We don't have any pests or diseases. I mean, a controlled environment. We grow in a controlled environment. We do pests or diseases. You can go to the best five star hotel restaurant in the world.

You will see a fly or something in the kitchen. You can keep these hours. You're in a building. You are going to get a pest control in the pest to the correct number. Hence why you have sticky traps in the greenhouse. You set up sticky traps. People said, spray wave, you got all these yellow sticky things all over your warehouse, you know, You bounce, it get a fly of some sort somewhere and it it's monitoring this check what you've got and making sure you don't have any issues.

And if you see something, you can rectify it before any issues arise. The first word in controlled environment, agriculture is controlled environment. Yeah. Yeah. And that's something that, uh, people fail to look at. So I'm Graham, I want to be respectful of your time, but, uh, you know, I, I know that that our conversation could go on and on and, um, I definitely would love to have you back.

And we certainly, um, would like to have, uh, Matthew Dunlin as a guest as well in the future and, and get his insights. Um, but, but again, um, for the people that are listening that are interested in controlled environment, agriculture, what would, what would you like to leave them with? What kind of parting shots do you have to, uh, to enlighten all of our listeners.

On the best advice I can give them is listen to just swaps, Oh boy, I'm going to send you this quick and send me a commission. I mean, it's a matter of, you know, if you want to get into the industry, you got to be passionate about the industry. I mean, I've heard people say, you know, if you use our growth system, you can, you only need to spend three hours a day growing.

Well, I mean the plants that have bank holidays, the panel lunch to have a weekend off. If something goes wrong at midnight, I mean, you can have a controlled environment, all your life, fully computer controlled. If you have a power cook, you don't have computer control. So what happens to the plant then you've got to be able to manage that plant yourself.

I think I remember this distinctly. One of the reasons I, uh, I connected with you all those years ago and knew that you were someone whose philosophy was very closely aligned with mine was the fact that you and I are two of the very few people who have spent many nights sleeping in the wintertime, sleeping in the greenhouse.

Um, so if you haven't slept in the greenhouse, you had folks that might be something you wanted to do because you want to really, um, get close to what's going on. But, but yeah, to be involved, this is an industry that is not a hands-off industry and not in any way, shape or form. No. I mean, anybody Consociate and work for it to grow.

It's growing that seed into a plan. And as I've said, that's the difference as growing a plant, others, growing a plants, and the emphasis is in the growing a plant. You don't just plan somewhere and watch it grow. You manipulate that plant. You don't suddenly turn into a footballer overnight. You you've got to train and you've got to practice tomorrow.

I was, you spend tennis play in smoker, American football, whatever baseball, you don't just pick a baseball bat and Hey, I'm the best baseball player in the world. You know, you've got to practice day in, day out, week in, week out, get better at the job. Then you become proficient. And it's the same we grow in.

Everybody thinks the worst thing for me is anybody thinks they can. I'm going to be a primer on the sower seed and the where that's like, ah, I'm going to be an international fan and seer. You know, you, you have to learn that job. You have to learn that profession. Everybody who gets into our industry, I'm afraid as a packet of seeds serves it and Hey, the real grower.

And the growers that do understand this gram is the cannabis growers, right? The cannabis growers figured this out, along in the seventies as well. You know, about the stressing, the plan out and certain things you do to the plant, you know, the blackout period during the finishing stage of the flowering period, you know, just like how you, they just, these little things that they do to stress off the plant for oil production and not quantity, they go for quality over quantity.

Well, I had a very good discussion about led lights, many, many, many moons ago, and a company called Phillips come to a chap I was talking to and he did led lights and they said, Oh, this won't work. Your lights won't work. And the work flower, and they do this. And they said, they said, what makes you think yours will work?

And he said, I've been growing. Cannabis in curves on the California for 15 years. It said, if you go inside the cave, you've got there, you've got humidity. He said, and I was one of the best cannabis growers. And he says, the reason I'm come out now, we said, it's legal. So I'm selling LEDs is seven. Y'all telling me it will work.

They said, it's been working for the last 15 years. He said, it's you boys that don't know what you're doing yet. Um, so yeah, I mean, when you are growing underground in a cave, you've got no light and you've got humidity and you grow in flowering crop. You have to,

you have to have that environment. Correct. Then, I mean, you know, I mean, we did, uh, Sure Joe won. So yeah, he had spinning LEDs and all sorts, you know, and that's where, okay. Instead of a spinning led, what do we do? I mean, I have, I use my LEDs in the completely different words to everybody else who grows. I don't just turn mine, Aman 12 hours and off that's it.

I have a completely different way of doing it. It's wrong, but Hey, mass Drabik ones are in flower and I planted them in December and I've got proofs on. Now, my lights right now are mimicking the sunrises and sunsets only the red and whites come on in the beginning. And then the blues will come on and it'll be at 60%.

And then for 20 minutes, it goes from 60% to a hundred percent. Oh, there you are. You see you still missing, still missing a trick.

I spent many, many days with a spectrometer and you know, late jurors said, you. Your best plants grow in the sunlight. No arguing with ya. My only argument with Joe is I like where I was, well, the plants grow best in the sunlight, but if you're providing that the, the same things that the sunlight is providing in that warehouse and the right in the same environment, then it doesn't matter.

But it's not. The argument was, I mean, professional growers have led lights inside a greenhouse to supplement the light when it's not there. When you heat a greenhouse, you're losing a lot of heat through the roof in a warehouse it's content. So you heat to a temperature and it's. A constant. You're not always eating where you are in a greenhouse when it's cold, when it's hot and sunny in the greenhouse, you bring shared in a cross.

When you bring the shared in the cross, you're blocking the sun. Now, when you blocking the sun out, you use supplementary LEDs. I have LEDs on. So, you know, when you're doing a cost comparison, it's like people say Agra 20 times more crops in the field crop grown this way. I have never, ever seen micro hubs in my life grown outside.

Absolutely. So how can somebody who grows microgreens we grew at 20 times or 40 times more than the equivalent outside acreage. I've never seen a micro herb grown outside. Know you, you've got to compare. Somebody said to me the other week about, well, I want to compute the difference between the way you grow growing out.

Sad so that okay. I said, take a hundred acre field. You want a hundred thousand dollar tractor. I want a deep drag. I want a plow. I want a power, a Hara. I want the bed former. I want boom, gantry irrigation. I want ham-fisted machine. This is a million dollars later. I need to chat to him trailer to take it, take my produce to a vacuum cooler, to get the vacuum cooler heat out.

And I said, Oh no, I just want to do a comparison of the crops. I said, well, if you're going to compare the seed in machine, the triggers, the irrigation, the, this, you've got to do it to the field crop and to plant a crop in the field. I need to drag. I've got a deep drag of the land. Once update, draft the land, a plow, the land plowed the London, each parish level.

Once I power hour a day, I need a bed Bedford. Then I need a planted machine supplanter. So if you compare in it, compare all the parameters correctly, just say, I can grow four crops outside. Yeah. That's an expert is because we're we're farmers at the end of the day. I don't care if you're growing in a shipping container or a warehouse, a greenhouse or outside you're farming.

And at the end of the day, it's an economic activity and what you're putting in and what you're getting out is everything. And so Graham's point is exactly right. When you start looking at. The comparisons you just have to look at, what's your output? What is your desired, what are you producing and how much are you selling it for?

And at the end of the day, it's how much money is staying in your pocket. So it really is apples and oranges. And I think that was an excellent analogy, um, to, to discuss that. So when someone tells me that their indoor system or whatever is equal to 15 football fields, my brain just shuts off because it's, it's an incense local, uh, comparison.

So anyway, um, Graham, we really appreciate your time. And I hope everyone had a chance to listen to everything he said. And we'll certainly have you back on because there's a lot more, a lot more where that came from, but, uh, we really appreciate your insight and your experience. And, uh, we, uh, we're looking forward to watching you continue to succeed.

And we also look forward to watching Mr. Matthew Dunlin succeed and move the industry forward. So again, thank you my friend for, for everything you're doing. And, uh, thank you everyone for listening and spending a little more time with us and telling us no. Now, if anybody can find him, where were were, where can they find you?

They want to know more about you. Graham Maya, you got to Google my name. I mean Google, my name and my email isGraham@localsolids.com. Um, in the UK, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm not a very difficult man to fan. And again, I'd just like to say. Thank you, Joe. And welcome on Barb to worldwide local salads as a part of the advisory board.

We're going to start building that Barb slowly but surely. And you're the first one on board. So you are on a reposition of being the first one on the board. Um, I only want people on, uh, going to bring a benefit to the company and if they're having anything in horticulture, they won't be on board. Hence why we wanted you on board.

And, you know, I'd like to thank yourself for doing it and Jenny and I'm Hydra for allowing it and, you know, look forward to some great times together. Yeah. Likewise. And thank you for the honor is all mine. Of course. Uh, so, so thank you for that and thank you for everything. Um, well, everyone, thank you for your time today.

And, uh, look forward to, to hearing more. We're getting a lot of great questions. Great comments. Uh, people have suggested some amazing guests. Graham was one of them, although that was, I was the first to suggest that as well. Um, so, uh, until next time, thanks very much everyone and have a great day. Bye.