021: Dan Ovadya - FloraGen

Dan Ovadya stumbled into his career passion growing super sweet Chandler strawberries in low tech greenhouses on the Israel-Jordan border in 1991. That dusty summer was the start of his journey into agriculture and have since accumulated 30 years of experience with control environment crop production, research, and development.

More about Dan Ovadya:
Website: https://www.floragentech.com

More about Joe Swartz:
Website: https://amhydro.com/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/HydroConsultant

More about Nick Greens:
Website: https://www.nickgreens.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/InfoGreens

Transcript

Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of the poly greens podcast. I'm Joe Swartz from am hydro along with my partner and colleague Nick greens of the Nick greens Grow team. And I've got another special guest today, a real innovator in a controlled environment, ag space. Uh, I met Dan Ovadia. Um, Probably about three years ago now I was working with one of the largest breeding companies in the world.

Uh, Dan's a plant scientist, a real plant guy, but he comes at it from two different angles. He understands, um, high-level horticulture and the plant systems to a very high level, uh, in degree. But he also has a very practical, pragmatic approach. And hopefully you'll, you'll hear a lot of that today when we talked to him a little bit about his past he's now, um, uh, the CEO and co-founder of fora Jan, which is based in Davis, California.

Uh, Florida Jen's mission is to focus on transformative innovations, integrated solutions and provide advisory services for controlled environment and open field agriculture. And that's a big mouthful, but, uh, he does a lot and brings a lot to the table. So Dan, welcome. Thanks very much for joining us. 

One thing to drop in there, though.

Um, from what I read from what I read about Dan and stuff like that, I say I can compare him to, uh, what, uh, Albert Einstein spin to science. Uh, Dan has been to, uh, to the plant industry. So just want to note that really quick. That's a high bar. It, you know, I wish I had the hair of Einstein. I'll say that. I think some of my ideas have been as provocative and I've probably failed as much as, uh, as Einstein for sure.

That's good. Well, Dan, thanks very much for joining us. Welcome. Um, why don't you tell everyone a little bit about yourself, kind of where you came from and how you got involved in agriculture and what led you here? 

Yeah, look, I think it's so important to talk about. The personal journey that people go on to get into this industry.

We all have our own personal story. Mine started, um, almost by accident. I ended up on an internship via Sungrow and UC Davis, uh, working on day neutral strawberries in 1990 in Israel on the Jordanian border. I had no idea what I was doing, but I loved science and plants. And that was my shame. That was my chance to touch plants.

And so ended up two summers in Israel working with day neutral strawberries. This is like 30 years ago. I was, you know, 19, 20 years old. So for me, totally eye-opening to see how food is grown. And these are low tech facilities. But cutting edge genetics. There was a collaboration between Roy Springers and a scientist in Israel at the Volcani Institute.

And they just took me under their arm and, and I really enjoyed it. So I kinda, uh, finished up at UC Davis. And graduated with a, bachelor's tell you the truth. And I tell this to a lot of students and a lot of people listening. Um, I was not good at school, actually. I was pretty bad at school. I struggled at all the, you know, the core sciences.

When I got into the plant work, I really started enjoying it. And the hands-on, the practical and the farming part of it that really motivated me, got out of Davis and just started a job in the biotech industry. 1994. Started at eight bucks an hour, managing a mid tech greenhouse growing transgenic canola.

Uh, really that was the beginning for me. And I think if people want to get into this industry, the same ideas apply today, which are self-learning self-discovery. Self-development got to have a coach got to have a mentor, but in the end, I think reading and studying and experimenting is super critical.

And for me, that was what I loved about. It was this continuous learning, so different facilities, different crops, different methods seeing needs. And you know, for me, I spent 26 years in big ag. We got acquired by Monsanto and then eventually Bayer. And for me, then it was, um, No, I transitioned from a grower again.

I grew, I was a grower for 17 years and then transitioned completely into innovation. And what does that mean? That just means optimizing plant growth and productivity and research environments and transferring that technology throughout the world. And what that does is accelerate all of our crop pipelines in agriculture.

So all those reading pipelines, all the biotech pipelines, by going faster, you generate huge value for these products. So plant breeding is kind of like mining for gold. The more dirt you go through, the more gold you get out. So everything I did towards the end was around optimizing plant productivity and pushing stuff out quickly.

And then again, But like a lot of stuff changed in the big ag world, happy to chat about that, but that was my time to exit out and do something else. 

So you were, I mean, you weren't focused on any one methodology or growing type systems or anything like that. So you really were kind of from basic field kind of production up to low-level greenhouse to control the environment you really were, were not focused on the, the, the systems per se.

Right. You were focused on the crop production, the crop development. 

Well, it's so interesting. Okay. R and D in controlled environment is almost. A different concepts. So imagine, you know, an R and D facility has ultimate flexibility. It's different than a commercial production environment. R and D environments are smaller zones and they have a wider capability of environmental.

Manipulation light temperature, um, fertigation options to do all of those treatment tests. So, um, facility is absolutely important to be able to manipulate crops. And I'll go back to your question. Um, I've worked with every row crop, canola, corn, soy, cotton, wheat, rice, every one of them. And most of the big vegetables as well, every crop has its own unique biological trigger.

And this is where, you know, R and D is so different in that you're thinking super hard about what is the key to this particular crop. Soybean, for example, is way photo periodic sensitive. Super sensitive. So if you want to do speed breeding and soy, you're going to go to the photo period card. Um, soybeans kind of like a Maserati in terms of how quickly it turns, uh, in terms of environmental manipulation.

I always describe corn as a minivan. It'll still get you from point a to point B. You do not have as much agility in that crop. It's just not as plastic. So the environment's super important. You've got to think about the crop. And you know, what trigger you kind of use it's, it's totally different. You think about it.

How are we going to optimize tomato versus how you're going to optimize rice? And each one is unique and that's why you need that really flexible R and D facility that allows you to explore every single biological, environmental trigger in that particular crop. No. Have you done a lot of varieties?

Hydroponically, um, R and D. And which ones did, which ones took really well to hydroponic? Yeah. Yeah. I love it. So, um, to answer your question, no, I have not done a ton of hydroponics and here's the reason why, um, I think in growing this broad range of crops, um, especially the agronomic row crops like corn, Um, those are a little bit challenging to grow in a container.

So I, for my entire time running our shop and our team globally, we ran basically yeah. The a P based container, um, system with continuous liquid feed. So it was near hydroponic and that the continuous liquid feed fertigation. Okay. And high-quality, fertigation being a true fertigation target. Just like what you guys talk about in a hydroponic system was super, super important, but I having a little substrate there, you have a little more flexibility and a little more buffering for hard container crops to grow like corn, or think about die.

Haploid corn that just came out of culture. Same treatment had burned roots. You know, this is a part of mutagenesis. So bringing those plants back, um, Would be a little difficult in a pure hydroponic situation, but I have to say continuous liquid feed is a blossom, you know? Cause you get a little bit of substrate for those weekends.

You get a little bit of a safety valve, right? When you're running

now, Dan, you didn't come, you didn't come from an agricultural background. 

Did you. No. Nope. Not at all. Dad, dad, dad was an economist, told me don't go, don't become an economist. And, uh, you know, I, uh, yeah, I had no idea what I was doing. I'll tell you the truth. I had one science class in high school, one science class in high school.

I got a C minus. And, um, what changed? My life was one professor in microbiology and, uh, he made it fun. He made it interesting. I transferred to UT Davis and started getting it, but no plan, no background in agriculture. 

Yeah. Interesting cause. Um, so, and, and, and to your point of, of your, let's say lack of academic prowess or lack of academic success, I, myself, uh, had a very similar experience and, and a lot of people that I work with in the industry, um, come from that, that same specific challenge that.

The way a lot of people in the horticultural industry are wired is not necessarily kind of the traditional neuro-typical agricultural or ICU, the academic, um, uh, model. But again, self-starters people fascinated with, with life and yeah. The, the changes that we can make in that life, through, you know, environmental manipulation and nutritional and whatnot.

And so a lot of people really enjoy that discovery. So based kind of on that as you started to develop, you know, in your career and you started to work on this, how, you know, w w what is some of the big. Surprises. I mean, we all, you know, most of our great learning comes from, of course, from those, those big oops moments, not the aha moments, but, uh, but certainly there had to have been along the way, a lot of surprises and things that really, you know, you weren't expecting, but really had a big impact.

Can you tell us about some of those things that really kind of took you by surprise? 

Yeah. I'll I'll it's, it's a great question. And yeah, and this is why I love your podcast, Nick and Joe is that we need to bring diverse skill sets into this industry. Okay. Totally respect the PhD, the geneticists, and they love and understand that aspect of it.

We achieve big innovations when there's this. Discussion between engineers, farmers, technicians, co you know, sanitation people in the whole academic world. There has to be this continued discussion between what's feasible and reasonable and these blue sky type innovation. So for me, to me, uh, it's just, it's, you know, that's the best thing.

There's always something exciting coming around the corner for me personally. Um, I realized there was so much potential here when I accidentally discovered how to produce a thousand percent more seed and soybean. And this was simply to solve a challenge for one of my project scientists I was grown for.

And I had to figure out how do I grow soybean, which is short date crop in a long day environment with no blackout in a mid tech greenhouse. How do you do that? So I went down the simple path of discovery and just simple going back to physiology. Well, how do you induce flowering had huge suppress flowering.

And like I said, did something that someone in the Midwest who's grown soybean forever would never have tried if they had known better. So I was dumb enough. I would say this, the big lesson is for me, uh, being dumb enough to try something can really be. Important and can lead to big stuff. So I was dumb enough to try stuff.

I didn't know any better. And I applied some technology on floral induction to soybean and got thousands, even 2000% seed increase per plant in a greenhouse. And I had some people from the Midwest come by. And that was doing this for a year. I just thought it was normal. And people from the Midwest would come by and pull me aside and say, Hey Dan, this is unbelievable.

I've never seen anything like this. And eventually, um, I listened and I said, okay, I guess this isn't normal. And I went and I studied the whole mechanism of flowering, the whole mechanism of photo, periodic manipulation of the Meristem. What is the measure of STEM? It's either vegetative or reproductive.

The fate of the Meristem, which are the growing tips of the branch and the main STEM, the fate of that marrow STEM controls, every other trait, downstream yield harvest index, maturity, time, termination date, all of those key things are tied up in the fate of the Meristem and you guys all know this, but, um, that whole balance between vegetative growth and reproductive growth is critically important.

And now. We had a way in soybean to control that incredibly precisely with photoperiod manipulation. And so that allowed us to do everything from speed breeding to accelerating our, uh, our global field trials and soybeans. So did you create an auto flower, a Breeden? Oh, totally interesting question. So auto flower to me means day neutral or almost photo period insensitive.

So yeah, in cannabis have auto flower lines, which are trying to do that. You're trying to do a crop that maybe, um, you know, has a shorter vegetative phase. Uh, the truth is soybean farmers have already done that. So you have these really, uh, early maturing or auto flower type lines in Canada where you grow.

Season's only 90 days, you know, you don't, you don't get a nice long, uh, you know, season, like in 150 day season like you do in Louisiana. So they have bred these maturity groups and soybean that will allow you this plant to flower quick and finish quick and get ya. And get you a good crop. So yeah, that, that's a whole thing that probably cannabis needs to think very much about how do we get proper maturity groups in this crop?

I hope everybody listens and I want to go back really quick to something very important that Dan said is you look at the process of what he just did to induce a result. And this is what we do when we struggle with this in controlled environment ag all the time. And we hear when we're talking about indoor vertical farms, greenhouse farms, shipping container farms, everyone.

Um, well, not everyone. Most people tend to look at the systems and they're trying to, I've used this expression many times, but trying to cram a square peg into a round hole. And so what Dan was doing in, in order to get a very specific. A result to try to enhance the, the, the breeding. He went back and looked at the plant and he looked at the function of the plant, the genetic predisposition of the plant to respond to its external environment.

And he went backwards and he built his methodology and his systems around that. So rather than saying, you know, and as it relates to controlled environment agro, we're saying we're going to build this really cool system to grow leafy greens or to grow flowering plants. Dan went back and he looked at the plant.

And he looked at his end goal, what, what he was trying to get out of it. And he, in order to do that, he had to look very specifically and very scientifically at the plant, what the plant does. And you don't force a plant per se, to do what it's not genetically predisposed to do. You may manipulate the environment.

You may manipulate external inputs all the time. And so. As we're looking at controlled environment. I really want you to think about this. And again, this is why Dan is such a high level person in the industry is that's the way he comes at it and obviously the results speak for themselves. So, um, I think that's a really important point and I really appreciate you sharing that with us because, um, that really is the essence of controlled environment agriculture, right there.

You're taking something you're, you're using this plant in a, uh, an environment that is not conducive to what the normal plant does, but you're looking at a specific result to speed up the process of reproduction and well, again, what does the plant need to do that? And you stopped and you broke it down.

And I think that's really important. 

Yeah. Sometimes we talk about. You know, how do you innovate and how do you really do R and D? So reverse engineering is something we've done a lot. And to me, what that means is that you can do quick and dirty and radical type treatments on plants to create valuable phenotypes.

Okay. And believe it or not, this doesn't require it should not require a ton of data collection. In my view, if you're going to really achieve a biological breakthrough in a crop, it should be so powerful that it's visual and you should be able to see like, wow, that treatment versus that treatment. And that's how powerful it should be.

And then once you achieve that phenotype, then you go back and reverse, reverse engineer it and say, what aspect of the treatment was key to this biological output? And how do you scale that up? How do you make it feasible and how do you transfer it to other sites globally? And that's like the most for me, that's like, you know, that's like ski skiing down steep mountains.

That's the most thrilling thing. And it's, and it's an honor to be able to kind of research. 

Fantastic. And again, the end result, you know, speaks, speaks for itself. So when you, you were doing a lot of this kind of in the field work, and now at some point in your career, you kind of transitioned again to kind of more of the, the research and of it.

Was that, was that a good transition for you? Was that more difficult to kind of get out of the out of the greenhouse, if you will. 

Yeah. Uh, uh, people will tell you hilarious stories about me. Cause again, I was just a, I started at eight bucks an hour, run a mid tech and running, you know, thousands, thousands of plants through the greenhouse.

Every plant could be worth a million bucks. So that's the other different of R and D versus commercial, right? I mean, you can have some attrition and commercial for me. Every single plant selection was valuable for my. Where my scientific partners. So as a grower, I, to make sure I didn't lose a single plant cause I one plant could be the one.

So you're running the R and D facility then. Right? That's what I did. Yeah. I'm not. Yeah. My background is running R and D facilities and across all these different crops. And usually you have different projects. We went through everything from like, You know, uh, nutrition projects like Omega three soybean, all the way to drought, tolerant, Cod and all these different projects.

So the goal was R and D and every plant could be super valuable. Um, but yeah, the transitions were incredible. So for me, Started out as a grower Mixon, fertigation sprang got a bunch, a, you know, health and safety. You got a bunch of health and safety awards figured out the entire facility rebuilt the entire facility.

Heating, cooling lighting got, got super burned on cheap lighting, you know, learned that lesson pulled down. You know, me and Marco pulling down 350, 42 pound HBS fixtures and replacing out the exploded capacity yeah. By hand. And then rehanging those in a 120 degree heat, you know, um, did all that, but it forced me to learn every aspect of controlled environment, rebuild a whole fertigation injection system, a whole plumbing system.

So one other point along this thing, it's like, okay, we talked about innovation, how killer that is and how fun that is. And like, that's the dream. Right? What I tell a lot of sites is like, look, that's like the dessert, but you got to eat a lot of beans and rice in this industry. And what that means to me for a controlled environment, you cannot do the really fun, hard, innovative stuff until you have the most stable.

Uh, production system and the best plant quality, and you're hitting all your production targets, your grow targets, right? So you cannot, you need a super stable foundation to do the innovation part. That's like that's one key message wanted to get out there to everyone. Once you have that really stable plant quality and facility.

And I'm talking super high quality, then you can start doing the really hard, uh, you know, kind of innovation stuff. But yeah, so for me, um, I think work through the entire process of being an expert grower. Hands-on working with my team facilities, safety, pest control, all that stuff. And then for me, yeah, when they came to me and said, wow, these innovations are transforming our pipeline.

Dan, we want you to be a real scientist. You know, I resisted that for about a year. Didn't want to leave my team. Didn't think I could do it. Didn't have a PhD, had my own ceilings, but I had a couple of good coaches again. Sometimes I don't pick up on stuff, but I had a couple people just pull me aside and said, Dan, you're really not as dumb as you look.

And you got a lot of potential. And you need to take the next step. And so yeah, we created this team global crop innovation. And that's all we did for 10 years was, was innovate. I stepped away as a grower. We still did hands-on work. We still collected ton of data. We still have the killer team. Um, but all we did was develop innovation.

I didn't have to do any of that big scale, large growing. I didn't have to deal with, you know, Cal OSHA as much and, and all that. So. Um, just did innovation. That was a really hard step. And then yeah. Eventually became a science fellow, which doesn't happen very often, uh, for someone without a PhD. So yeah, every step of the way I had to, I had to realize that I could do more.

And I think it's important for people listening. Every single person listening, no matter how old you are, just, you got to find yourself a coach and, and think about where you're at and be pretty courageous with taking the next step in this industry. Hmm. 

Wow. So, okay. Everybody listening back up your, your, uh, um, Your podcast about four minutes and listen to what Dan said again, maybe twice or three times, focusing on the basics, becoming an expert grower is the only way to innovate and to become, um, to, to, to create that kind of change and that kind of innovation and a, an amen to that.

And I really appreciate you saying that because that's really. The essence of what we've seen in this industry. I mean, I've been involved in this, you know, my, my whole adult life. And boy, if there's one thing that I have learned over and over and over again, and it's usually taught with a baseball bat upside, the head is that if you do not understand the growth process, if you do not understand everything that you possibly can about that plant production or the crop production, the nutrition, the environment, um, all of that basic.

Uh, you, you just do not have the tools to effectively innovate. And, and obviously Dan story is, is perfectly, uh, a great example, uh, you know, to illustrate that. So, so that's very cool. So again, that's what that, that's what brought you to where you are, you were at the level that you're at. So now of course, obviously you've got this innovative team.

You're, you're literally a global leader in the industry. And so now you decide. It's time to move on and move on to the next bigger and better thing. And maybe you can tell us a little bit about 

that. Yeah, that's that was the big transition for me. And again, had built something with a course with our team.

Couldn't do anything with it, a great team of people and a great culture and a great environment. And I will say big ag was the most exciting place to be a plant scientist from around 2004, around 2014. And that was the growth phase of biotechnology. And this is when all the row crops went out and, um, you know, transformed agriculture.

And of course there are problems out there. Always problems in agriculture, but it really was an exciting time in agriculture and it over on an innovation. And so, um, That was just an incredible phase. And then you notice, okay. The growth phase is probably wrapping up for biotech and we're talking, um, you know, the row crops driving huge R and D budgets.

And so there's definitely a change in how the industry big ag was working and the culture of science and things started changing. So I kind of started thinking about plan B already around 2017. And waiting to see how things played out. And then for me, I just felt after everything I'd done in belt, I actually, my last piece of advice to my bosses were, um, get rid of me.

And the reason was is that I said, I felt. This organization was no longer capable of true blue sky innovation and had to actually take a step back to the fundamentals because I was spending a ton of my time on things like, why are my plants sick? Why do I have, you know, blossom end rot? Why do I have all these, these more or less basic problems?

So. Uh, those are critically important and I don't have problem doing that, but in terms of my personal ambitions, I go back to that incredible innovation piece. And how do I continue delivering the innovation to the community that are going to continue to change and solve the problems? That the industry needs.

So for me, I guess maybe it's a little selfish, but it was going back to what I really love, which is the pure innovation piece and more of the blue sky innovation piece. And so for me, I, um, yeah, that was really our, for me. And of course I'm not a business man at all. Uh, but getting a bunch of coaching on that aspect, I think we still fall back origin falls back essentially on this model of collaboration and fundamentals.

And cutting edge biology and that's, and that's kind of where we're always going to be. You know, the business it's real interesting, the way, how much venture money is out there and the way you're supposed to grow as a company. And I think once again, I'm going to try and do the opposite. I'm going to try and do things completely different and I'm not going to, and I'm not going to get on that venture treadmill right now.

At least florigen will not for now for right now, we're going to grow, um, organically and we're going to find the right partnerships and the right people. And, uh, we're actually going to go slow. Very 

cool. All right. So, so when, when did you jump? Was that last year you, uh, you kind of stepped into your role as CEO of florigen and.

Yep. Yep. Uh, wrapped up in 2020, so exited out Justin just last August. And so, um, yeah, that's always tough. I had so many good people along the way. It really was incredible experience. So many supporters, so many good people, but it was time and it was hard to say goodbye, but it was just last year that exited out.

Wow. 

And so, so here you are into a whole new phase. Um, what, what are some of the things that you've started to obviously have big, big, big plans? And we'd love to hear more about them, but kind of how did you get started? So, okay. So here you are, you're out, you're in, you're in with your, your new company and, and how do, how do you, how do you step forward and, and what, what did you get into.

Yeah, and I want to also know more 

about the education part too. Um, talk more about the education in the community. I heard you were talking about community. I would like to know more about the community aspect as well. Well, you guys are doing a big piece of the community and I think this kind of, this is soup.

This is education right now because it's about opening people's minds to this industry. It's so mysterious to people. Who've never touched plants. I just look at what am Hydro's doing in terms of its outreach program. To me, that's why I love amp hydro. I mean, it's just incredible how this can transform people's lives and it can transform entire communities growing food, not sitting behind a screen, not sitting in a meeting all day, but getting out and growing food, doing plants, using your body, using your mind, you know, sweating, you know, those things that that farmers do to me.

So, you know, I think talking about that. The aspect of education is important and something I always stood up and said back in the big ag days. And I still say for a lot of our clients right now is, guess what? You're not going to go out and be able to find every single expert grower for your program.

And you're not going to be able to find all the, the associates you want. You're going to have to go out and find people that have the capability to do this work. Develop them onsite and retain them and retain them is so important because I still think to this day, big organizations and well-funded organizations don't view this work.

As importantly as the folks who sit. You know, in the office and the truth is you cannot succeed, uh, in breeding or biotech or production without the boots on the ground. And so retaining, motivating, protecting, developing. People are just like key. We have to keep saying this message and understand, um, that this is going to be a lot of work and a lot of commitment.

It's a human aspect of it. So yeah, because they don't empower their employees. Right. Um, and, and I think w with old running a farm, it's about empowering the growers. Right. As much as your capability, like you're saying. Yep. So I'll tell you going back to when I was grower, um, had the best team ever, and the folks were from Michoacan, Mexico, and had come from backgrounds where their parents are working in the field, you know, 80 hours a week, 10 bucks a day, hardworking people.

Some of them didn't have high school education. And these people. Together. Uh, well, they became some of the best scientists I've ever met and probably ever will. And there's some of the best growers and those are the people that could walk into a greenhouse and see one wilting plan from about 50 feet away because the waxy.

Color on the leaf changed a little bit, and they can tell that there's an algae plug in that, or they can, they can smell it before they even see it. I tell you why that is artificial intelligence that is machine learning. And I just said, that's what people are, these kinds of growers. And these kind of people are incredible.

You know, we got to get more of them and it's just such an honor and pleasure to work with. These kinds of people who, again, don't have the degree, but. They learned on the job and you, you know it, Nick and Joe, you've seen these kind of people, like you said, they can walk into a greenhouse. They don't need to go and look at the previous screen.

They know what's happening. The second they walk in. Wow. Feels humid, inherit. Wow. Feels a little warm. What's going on. Or recycling back and forth between, but you're absolutely right about not taking care of your employee to when they're valuable. Um, I noticed in, in certain grow rooms and I'm not going to mention names or anything, um, uh, where growers would come up to me and give me advice or tell me things.

And I'm like, why aren't you talking? And he's like, cause they're not paying me to talk. And you're my friend. I like you. So here, here you go. And I'm like, Oh God, this guy has so much valuable information and they're treating them like, he's, he's not valuable, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, on the community side, I forgot what the other part of the question was.

But I think this people is people aspect. Yeah. I think a lot of folks talk about, you know, culture and their work in corporate culture. The truth is I think a lot of. Companies and organizations have forgotten what human motivation is. How do you motivate human beings? Um, you include them in the discussion and if you got a grower, even the weekend water should be.

Talk to, because they're going to tell you, this is what I'm seeing Saturdays and Sundays, get that person involved. Get that person in a room, empower them, create a fearless environment where everyone can bring up the Santa citation department should be in the meetings too. Cause they they're noticing more algae on, on, on the medium or whatever they're cleaning, you know, or whatever the F whatever it is, a hundred percent, a hundred percent.

When you 

hear a technology company saying that our systems have thousands of sensors and it's, uh, you know, uh, absorbing all of this information, the most basic grower with employees has those sensors. The only difference is those sensors all have advanced AI and they have the ability to not only.

Collect that data, but make decisions and usually much more intelligent decisions than anyone else. Um, as far as what's going on, how to solve that and how to improve on that. And that's just, uh, uh, it's like the old proverbial, uh, the parable about the farmer who has diamonds under the soil on his farm.

And he's sitting on these, these riches and, and I see this all the time. Where you have executive management. Yeah. They, they won't talk to the, to the person cleaning the floors or sanitizing the equipment or the low level harvesters, because what do they know? You know, they don't really know anything.

And the fact of the matter is they're the most valuable resource. In the visit in addition to just being human beings that deserve the respect for all the incredible work that they're doing, but the valuable information we train growers all the time in harvesting and transplanting, not to just literally take a plant and place it here, but to observe the plant and notice if there are the beginnings of powdery mildew evidence or.

Uh, Oh, there's aphids. And we're, we're noticing that we're, we're transplanting and executives didn't want to hear that, or didn't need to listen to that. And they're blowing incredible opportunities. And so you're, you're absolutely right that as we look at at our people, from every corner of the, of the business and every level, there's so much, not only.

Observation, but, but again, innovation, people understand very quickly what's going on and how they would solve it. And, um, it's usually a good, uh, a good way to go. Um, Dan, one of the things that, one of the primary reasons that Nick and I started to do this podcast wasn't as much. Well, it was to provide information.

About the controlled environment ag industry, but a lot of it was to actually dispel a lot of the misinformation. And especially with the last maybe 10 or 12 years with a real technological advancement or boom that we've seen in the industry, there's so much damage to the industry. Um, yes, from lack of information, but actually I I've, I've seen much more damage from, uh, incorrect or inappropriate information.

Is that, is that the experience that you're having as well? 

Yeah, we see a gap. I would describe it as a gap. And so going back to that expert grower on what they know and how good it is, it's a little bit of an art form. It's a little mysterious. And when those people go away and you lose, you know, that level of performance.

So the goal of digital agriculture is completely legit. Okay. How do we capture what Adella Contrarez new on my team or Anhelica roadshow. How do you capture what they know how to do and digitally do some additional aspect of that? The gap is where you're missing, you know, um, the biology piece. Okay. And the truth is this is still farming and you can over-engineer and, you know, space X is doing some pretty incredible stuff.

You know, landing rockets backwards. That is incredible engineering. The truth is, um, controlled environment. Ag is engineering. And it's also biology and it's also farming and believe it or not, biology is still very hard to tame and there's an incredible amount of variation in biology, even in tight systems.

So there is still this gap and I see some of our clients and the advisory space. Still miss this. I mean, there's this whole team of technology and engineer saying we don't need growers and we can just simply engineer it all out and we're going to have autonomous greenhouses. And so I think it's a fine goal, but there's this, there needs to be like a closing of the gap between the reality of the biology and the variation of biology and genetics and the engineering capability, because the engineering is way ahead of the biology.

Well, the plants know that the humans are not there.

You can't trick the plants, right? I mean, I'm just saying, you know, I, I wonder, I think it's one of those ideas. What do you think, Nick? I don't know. I think it's possible. I think the plants it's like a baby, right? It's like having, okay. We're going to have the baby. Once it comes out of the mommy, going in, robots are going to nurse it for the next four years.

I think the baby would die after a week of not having human contact. You know, in, in culturally, while you're looking in the vegetable space. So in France, they still love their lettuce deliver to the farmer's market on a bike, in a Wicker basket in Asia, they completely are in love with the idea of robotic food and, you know, completely sterile conditions and people in rubber boots, growing stuff in Europe, they're not so hot with it.

They really want, you know, like dirt on their food and they want, you know, like a dirty, you know, kinda like. Local farmers. So there's, there's a whole cultural perspective to it. And honestly, I, I think what the industry should be well, I'm pretty open-minded to every style. Right. And I kinda respect anyone who puts seed to soil and who tries that's that's where I think we should be.

And yeah, we all have gaps. I got gaps. I got bias. But I think as an industry, it'd be cool if we were like open to all these different production methods and yeah, the big money is getting a ton of headlines right now. I think it's okay. And yeah, there's going to be a ton of failure and a bubble forming in the industry.

But when you have this much interest in this much money, something good is going to come out. 

Hmm. Yeah. I still hear some of these companies, the technology companies, particularly saying that they, they, they're going to take the farmer out of the farm. And all I can think of is why would you want to do that even just because you can do that doesn't mean you should do that.

And, and, and why would you deprive people? The joy of working in such an industry? It's it's I it's unbelievable. And it makes no sense to me. 

It doesn't fit. It doesn't fit my outlook either. I mean, as a community and that human piece of it, um, you know, if someone maybe wants to may who knows me, we are going to grow food on Mars and maybe, uh, I don't know, Joe, if you do so well in a weightless environment, but you know that yeah, that is one of those things, but I know what's interesting is you go to Holland, you know, and you see these ultra high-tech facilities in that cold dark climate.

And. You know, they're super expensive and the operating costs expensive. And you've got these growers in there who went to high school and they're in there on their dashboards every single morning as a grower. Do you know, make him, even though you have these advanced control systems are still in there on the dashboard, making micro changes.

Even those growers love walking through their greenhouses. They're the most high-tech facility. And I would almost argue the higher tech your facility, the more. The better pilot. You almost need to be in some sense, but you know, I've been in low tech in Guatemala. And those growers are brilliant too. 

You know, when, when I was, you spent time in Holland, I think I was more impressed.

And there, there was certainly a segment of the industry that were, was in some of the older, lower tech greenhouses, some of the older growers and, and they actually impressed me more in a lot of ways, again, because they're out there. In the greenhouse they're understanding, uh, what's going on and like you, there's not, there's not a right way in a wrong way.

And there's certainly, uh, advantages and disadvantages to both. But, um, but w when we look at, at Holland and some of the innovations, um, still a lot of that is around the grower and the innovations of the grower. So, you know, whether you're growing with a hole or a tractor or a computer, or some kind of AI learning, Yeah.

They're all tools and they're all there for, you know, for your use. They're not the be all end all for sure. 

Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I think for people listening to, to control environment, there is not one system. I know you've both said this a lot. There is not just one system. And I think certain groups do really good jobs at marketing their technology that Dutch have done incredible things in their location.

Um, just incredible stuff. Um, however, the Dutch system doesn't apply everywhere. It really doesn't. And when you look at CapEx and OPEX, and, you know, I think, uh, you know, the Spanish would say something quite different back when you look at their climate, tons of free light, a natural light, a low cost system, smaller farms, each one of those ecosystems.

Have potential for improvement and technology paths forward. The thing that I think we need to, to kind of echo out there is that not a single system. Is going to be completely dominant and think very carefully before you invest in your particular system and what you're growing and where you're growing and what your whole market is about.

Okay. So 

back up again and listen, listen to that in a couple of times, let it sink in. So, so, okay. So flora, Jen is off and running. Um, real quick. Tell us a little bit about some of the, the, the work that you're doing there. And, and some, if you can tell us anything about any of the projects that you've been involved.

Yeah, absolutely. So I'll say something unexpected. So. Um, you know, founded florigen with, uh, my business partner, uh, best Savage. And we've got a couple folks on with general counsel and business. What, what was really not expected was this whole advisory piece. And literally, I think just when I exited a word, just kind of spread that I was out and then the phone just started ringing.

So that was unexpected for us. And how big, the whole advisory. Uh, need was in this industry. I mean, I thought it would be out there. It wasn't really, even in our plan as much, but the phone just started ringing on the advisory side and some of these groups truly are doing some interesting stuff. And I think there's a unique opportunity.

And for us, it's a chance to help some companies that are really ambitious and are well-funded, but need that deep. Content expert knowledge. So that is actually something I've done my whole career, which is this collaboration please, which is bringing the biology, which is bringing the controlled environment design and bring the fundamentals and just give that to them.

Like, you know, here's what we can bring to this group or this discussion and, um, super important opportunity right now for people like us are experts. To help companies. I want to do the really hard blue sky stuff because they need those fundamentals. So that, that is, you know, it was unexpected. So some of our clients, a ton of people in the controlled environment space, and I do think North America is going to go big.

North America, I mean, controlled environment, right. And we have the best open field, uh, food system in the world, safest best, most efficient, best climate in the world. Um, but controlled environments come in and we have the fewest square footage per capita of any country in the world of controlled environment space.

So it's common and it's going big and it's probably going to go too big and it's going to come back, but that's okay. That's how things work. So. This is fascinating, and this is why we need so much expertise that so many more people, I mean, so, uh, Kano people in the controlled environment, space, everything from vertical farming, the high-tech, um, to actually sustainable off the grid systems in the right climate.

So imagine a low tech crave system run with a solar and a Tesla power wall, anywhere in the world, off the grid, running. And increasing yield and producing delicious local food in smaller farms, not just mega farms, not just like an app or app harvest style farms, but smaller farms and bringing that some, you know, imagine bringing it out to a certain segment of the planet that have good climate, no power.

And really limited water, but bringing the right systems, uh, to those kinds of clients. So I see that on the advisory side, it's just, it's just unbelievable. And then we do have a technology side and technology for us means it's something that's so valuable that we don't give it away for a retainer or an hourly fee.

And so that's what we call technology. And for us, that's delivering huge value to companies or partners and in that space, Um, one of the first things we developed was a feminized breeding system in cannabis, and that's a dioecious crop and there's a specific biological challenge there with greeting in breads and hybrids and producing a feminine seed.

And I know folks have done a great job and the industry has done a great job, but I believe we believe it's time, uh, to think about that particular plant and biologically. And what is the trigger? How do you improve it? How do you optimize it and how do you consider, um, Where this plant goes in society. I mean, can we really deal with opioid deaths and do proper clinical trials and really think openly about this molecule?

And is it valuable? Is it harmful? How does it relate to, you know, alcohol or these other stuff? So we have this whole technology around, um, reading in cannabis and then, um, We also do a lot of climate analysis and that's in our technology group as well. So really deep, deep dive into climate. So think of what happened in Texas, right?

With, um, that, that cold snap, right. And hit their power grid, greenhouses and big greenhouses. Don't always think about how climate in the deepest sense. And so. This is almost like a gap analysis too. So you can plan your heating system and cooling system, that lighting system them off the mean off some average off some free data off the web.

Sure. But what about the extremes and what does that cost risk benefit? Do you want to size your heaters up? How much backup power do you need? How much lighting do you need? So when all the other growers are kind of struggling and can't deliver their produce in the middle of winter, If you have that lighting capability, for example, you don't have to use it every time, but if it's a real bad winter, do you invest in that lighting system to deliver your crop in the worst year when no one else is?

And do you get that high market price? So in our technology, we do a lot of this climate analysis for farms and make sure they're thinking really clearly about. Um, when they build stuff out, how, how much, how big do they want to go in? What makes sense for the particular crop they're doing? Yep. 

You're saying Murphy wrote Murphy's law.

He must've been in the farming industry. 

Absolutely. Yeah, 

that's fantastic. Well, you know, this is, this has been really insightful and I hope everyone has had a lot, uh, to listen, Nikki. Uh, I'm sure. You've got a, I got one question more. 

I got one more, uh, actually a question. Um, so if you can go back to a younger self of a younger Dan, um, what, what will be the one thing that you would tell a younger Dan.

Getting into this industry, what would I, what would I tell a younger Dan, um, about anything it could be about anything doesn't even necessarily have to be about the industry? Oh, man. Uh, probably in general. I mean, what I tell my kids, um, is, is, uh, You know, give yourself time, give yourself time. It's okay to take the long road.

Cause I took the long road home, you know, um, like the Supertramp song I took the long way home and it's okay to, uh, get a range of experiences before you jump into something. And that's kind of like, florigen, you know what, stuff's coming at us fast and we're kind of opportunistic right now. So it's really important to be agile on one side, like.

Like be agile, you're driving down the road. If you see an off-ramp and you see an opportunity. Absolutely take it. Um, on the other hand, don't get super committed too early. Get yourself a broad range of experiences before. You, um, you know, you put your blinders on and focus down when it's time to hit the details by all means like salary yourself off of read up focus super hard on the task at hand, but make sure you get broad experience before you commit, especially in this industry.

Oh, awesome. Of course, Dan, you are dating yourself with a Supertramp reference, so, huh. 

Yep. Yep. 1970. Um, yeah, I still listen to that stuff and actually a good news is kids. Kids love it too. Our kids love it too. Yeah. 

When, when, when, when I hear people younger people listening to the seventies and eighties classic stuff, I always say you're welcome.

But anyway, um, so Dan, if people want to get ahold of you, what's a good way for people to reach out to you. 

Uh, you know, you can go to our website, which is florigen tech.com. Uh, floor gen itself was taken. So floor gen tech.com. Dan dot Ovadia at flora, gen tech.com. Um, we are super busy right now, but uh, loved talking to people and love giving advice, always happy to talk.

And I think that's something that history needs to do as well is basically be okay. Talking be okay, just like collaborating and not getting an NDA, not getting everything formalized too early. Just. Compromising exchanging ideas perfectly, perfectly useful. 

Dan, thanks so much for your time. I hope everyone's had a chance to really pull a lot of really valuable stuff out of, uh, Dan's insight and his experiences.

So, so we thank you. I'm sure we'll have you back on again sometime soon. Um, everyone, thanks again for your time today. Uh, please continue to send in questions and comments. Uh, Nick and I, in the future episode, we'll be, uh, answering more questions and addressing them, but we have quite a, a lineup of, uh, guests and innovators in the CA industry.

So we're looking forward to bringing those to you, um, all in the coming weeks. So, uh, Dan, again, thank you so much for your time and for your expertise. We really appreciate it. And the CA industry is better off. For people like you. So, so thanks again and thank you everybody for joining us. And, uh, we hope you all have a great day now.

Thank you

thanks.