022: Jenn Frymark - Gotham Greens

In this episode Joe and Nick interview Jenn Frymark from Gotham Greens.

Green produce starts with green decisions. Gotham Greens indoor farming facilities are sun (and wind) powered, and climate controlled for a year-round growing season. This means they can provide clean, sustainable and quality food to the communities. Any time, anywhere.

More about Jenn Fymark:
Website: https://www.gothamgreens.com/

More about Joe Swartz:
Website: https://amhydro.com/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/HydroConsultant

More about Nick Greens:
Website: https://www.nickgreens.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/InfoGreens

Transcript

Hey everyone. I'm Joe Swartz from am hydro along with my friend and colleague Nick greens and the make greens grow team. And welcome to another episode of the poly greens podcast. So this morning we've got a really great guy. I asked someone that I've been hoping to get on the show for quite some time.

Now. Um, I met her back, I believe in 2009 or 2010 when she was playing, putting together, uh, the concept for a rooftop farm in New York city. And, uh, we got to know each other a little bit. And, um, we got to watch her develop, uh, an amazing business. Um, so Jenn Nelkin, uh, excuse me, Jen frymark. So sorry.

That's how I, I originally I'm so sorry. Um, but Jen, thank you so much for being here. Um, people are really excited about hearing from you and learning a lot more about what's going on with Gotham greens. Great. Well, thank you so much for having me. Yeah. It's been quite a journey since then. We met, um, so long ago just from this.

Um, I think at the time people thought, I mean, you guys were completely on board, um, in American hydroponics, but I think a lot of people thought we were crazy trying to build this greenhouse on a roof in New York city back then, and now, um, It's so different. I mean, the landscape of our industry is so different, you know, more than 10 years later of this is just, uh, urban farming, local food.

What was just really beginning to kind of gain speed at that time is just a complete national movement now. So there is, uh, our industry has exploded over the last 10 years. Yeah, well, absolutely whole different world. Um, and I had to think back to when we met and I'm starting to, you know, is this five, six years ago?

Seven, nine, 10, yeah. 10, 11 years. It was a while. Um, so a lot is certainly happened since then. Um, so Jen, you know, a lot of people kind of are following you and following doc and greens. Um, but a lot of people don't really know kind of how you got started, how you got involved in agriculture and controlled environment, agriculture, what kind of led you over to the university of Arizona?

So if you could tell us a little bit about your background and what brought you here. Yeah, sure. Um, I think, uh, it was really just like a natural progression of just, you know, continuing to just find things I loved in this field. So, I mean, I'm from New York, but I had gone to school, um, At ASU, certainly arrival to U of a, um, but started at ASU as an undergrad.

In plant science as a major, and that had come about just, um, had no exposure to something like that when I was younger. Um, but just from taking classes, just like a lot of people do trying to figure out what they're interested in. You know, I took, you know, I was very, always just good at math and science, right.

So I was thinking maybe pre-med or something like that. Um, but ended up taking some plant science classes as electives and an organic gardening class. And I just instantly loved working with plants. And I had so many jobs, um, as an undergraduate student, um, that made me just get more and more interested in it.

I worked, um, on a couple of different organic farms. It's all soil based outside. I still love that even though everything I do now is indoor. Um, so I worked, uh, I did worked on some, um, kitchen gardens for restaurants, uh, some outdoor organic farms. I worked, um, For, um, a lot of school garden programs and, um, installing like raised beds and building curriculum for schools.

And so from all these jobs, as an undergrad, just getting more and more into like horticulture and agriculture, having a plant science major going on. And then what really got me into greenhouses was I was living. I was at, you know, ASU, but you have a, had a conference. They don't have this conference anymore, but they used to so many years ago, this would have been.

It's sort of been a long time ago now, but, um, they, it was for how to use hydroponics. It was really about, um, how to use hydroponics in the classroom. And, um, so I went to that classroom cause I, you know, I was working with so many different groups on these school gardens in there or schools that just couldn't build raised beds outside.

And there was just so many great, the opportunities for science and curriculum development with kids working with plants. And so, um, I thought this will be great. I'll go to this class about hydroponics this conference that I can help these other schools and we'll build systems inside. And I just remember going to see ACC and, you know, going to this class and just walking in to their teaching greenhouse and seeing the tomatoes, you know, growing a high up into the air.

And I was just in love with it. I knew instantly that that was my next move. Um, and so. I, I mean, I remember from the conference, I mean, this is a long time ago, but like calling my mom, like from the hotel room and saying like, this is what I'm going to do with my life. Like I found it. Um, and so yeah, from there, like as soon as I, you know, I'd met Jean Jack and there.

And so as soon as I was just wrapping up, um, My undergrad at the time. So then just right away, uh, just applied to U of a, um, for grad school. And so, you know, I just, I got so much out of my time at CA as a grad student, I loved it. I mean, it was a, it was so exciting. I mean, I was one of the. First students that came through that program, it was very new.

And I know you guys are involved, um, there now and have like a demo set up and they're teaching, you know, greenhouses and I mean, it was such a wonderful program. I had, um, they had just built it. So Merle Jensen, you know, was actively involved in, you know, uh, getting it all set up and the fundraising for it.

And Jean and. Cherry Kubota was still there and was on my committee also. And so just getting, you know, to work there and do my graduate work there for a couple of years was just a special time. And they really, um, did such a good job setting, you know, setting students up, you know, for what was special about their program is that it was you, you picked whether you were in engineering or in plant science.

And that was something very unique about that program. So I was in the plant science department, but C Aqua's really, um, Both departments were involved in that center, right? So you would have, the students were an engineering half in plant science. And so you got a lot of exposure to both sides of the field and had both of those kinds of minds.

Um, and I think it was drilled into me early on, um, from MRL that just, you know, the plant comes first. I don't care what these engineers say, everything that the plant is first and that just always stuck with me, you know? Um, And so I still gave talks about that. Like, everything you're doing has to be built around like the final product and the plant and the plant has to agree with all the decisions.

And so from being there and just getting to work and just as a grad student, you're helping everyone on their different projects and you're involved in everything. So you, so you learn a lot. Um, and so that's what really, you know, got me started and they have so many different, you know, industry people coming through all the time and the short courses that they offer.

Um, so you get a lot of exposure to the industry as well. Starting there. You got to work with neural Jensen, which is really that's I'm, I'm jealous. I, I had a chance to meet Merle in Chicago about seven years ago. Um, but what a wonderful guy and a real pioneer in the industry. So it must've been him terrorize all of us as graduate students.

He'd call us at like Saturday morning. It's 6:00 AM, like in front of our research projects and be like, I think you get a better get down here. We got to talk about. Something with your plants. Like, it was just like he was on everybody's graduate committee, but yeah. And then just like other people that were, were such pioneers in this industry, when I was a graduate student there, Howard rash had come to give a talk who wrote the book, hydroponic food production, and was just really such an early pioneer there.

He was working at Queensland art resort and spot at the time. And during this talk, he said, you know, anyone and wants to come do an internship down here is more than welcome. And so I went to speak to him after and was very like enamored. And I had his book and I'm like, I want you to sign my book. And I'm like, I want to, I want to come down there and work for you.

And he's like, great. And so, I mean, I was very fortunate. UFA was willing to set that all up and I could go for a semester and I got to work for Howard for a semester at Queens in art, which. Was just wonderful because the resort put me up, like in this like five star resort on the beach, they did like room and board.

And I did it as like a, an assistantship for that year. And he taught me so much about running that greenhouse, um, and had exposure to like so many different. Crops and the crop scheduling and his just wealth of knowledge, getting to spend time with him every day and quizzing art, um, had that greenhouse, um, and this ties back to, you know, some of, you know, other experiences I had at least in the Caribbean, um, You know, a lot of the food.

If you go in the grocery store, you know, this was in Anguilla and at the time, um, if you went into the grocery store, just a lot of, there was minimal selection of produce, you know? So when they were building Cuisinart, they said, we're going to have all these restaurants in the property. And we want to have the most high quality produce possible for our chefs.

So we don't think we're going to be able to import it and we have to really be able to grow it here. And so that's what it was all about is just meeting with the chefs and what would the menus be? And so there were some, I mean, we were growing, you know, like the purple bell peppers, white bell peppers, um, just lots of unique things.

Um, and so many different growing systems in a very challenging climate just to deliver really like local produce right there for the restaurants and guests. Wow out of the frying pan into the fire. So that, that must've been an amazing experience. How did you end up going from an Guila to the South pole?

Sure. Well, it just, yeah, so Jean jacket, Molly was on my graduate committee. So while I was a student, um, he had the contract with Raytheon to build the new South pole food growth chamber. So what happened there is, you know, Jean's always been involved in a lot of the, uh, NASA lunar Mars research. Um, and so he had been doing a lot of work on that and for so many grants over the years, that when it got to, um, you know, the new South pole station, like being, thinking about extreme environments, he was, um, well-suited to get that contract.

And at least with Antarctica, um, there's the Antarctic treaty that says that no country can bring their own soil there. Um, and so if you want to grow something there, it has to be done with hydroponics. And so the us has, you know, there's the South pole station and McMurdo station. Those are the two main US-based.

So there's a lot of field camps and other countries have their basis, but there had already been, even before this project that Jean did, um, there had always kind of been hydroponics even. 16 years or so before that, cause people were just like bringing down equipment and almost smuggling seeds down because they wanted to grow their own food there.

And they were building these crazy things out of PVC pipes and stuff because half the year, um, they can get, um, there's one main resupply vessel that comes in every year. And then besides that they're, you know, air freight air is coming in. Planes are coming in six months of the year. Um, but then, you know, six months of the year, it gets so cold that the continent is pretty much shut down.

Right. And so then all you're left with is what came in, you know, during the summer season and in winter, there's a much smaller crew that overwinters there. Um, and so that's why they wanted to grow their own. Produced there. And so, um, there are a lot of benefits too. I mean, cause otherwise they only had what was canned dried or frozen, no fresh food.

So people wanted to grow it, but it was, it had a connection to, to some of these, you know, Mars and lunar projects is that, you know, when you start growing in a remote environment, there are not that the, you know, uh, South pole one got this far, but there are some real like. Interesting like biosystem services to start to think about is how can you collect the water?

And the plants can make, you know, be a recycling system for the base. Um, but also like the psychological benefits were a really big piece of this, you know, and people like South pole is a very high elevation. It's very dry. So not only to have the fresh produce, but the benefits of like going into that environment.

I mean, cause I remember flying out of there, you fly in and out with the air force and they take you first to New Zealand. And I remember leaving South pole and landing in New Zealand, even from like a very high altitude being overwhelmed by the feeling of humidity and the smells of another place. And like the smell of vegetation was so overpowering.

Cause you just don't have that, um, in Antarctica. And so. They wanted to, so there had always been these like hobby units built all over the place. And so there's always a different contractor. That's awkward Antarctica. It's usually a defense contractor because they're the only companies big enough to sort of operate a whole continent.

Um, right now, uh, I believe it's Lockheed Martin or it's a new parent company named that has it, but at the time Raytheon had the contracts it's run by the NSF, um, And Raytheon had the contract at the time. And so they decided, um, to put in a new food growth chamber and really pay for it and do it right.

Instead of all these hobby systems, as part of building the new South pole station. Cause if you've seen any of these old videos about South pole, there's all the old domes and they have crews just moving snow around all day long. But even despite crews moving snow around all day long that the. Old don'ts were just getting buried by the snow.

So they were building this brand new South pole chamber and it was on hydraulic. So they can just keep lifting the station up over the years, the whole base. And so in there they put this, um, you know, it wasn't a great, it was indoors, you know, so it was a really a growth chamber. Um, and you have a developed everything.

They develop the growth chamber, all the growing systems, a water-cooled lighting system. And so Jean was building that while I was finishing grad school and he would just sorta joke. He's like, you know, you're going down there when you graduate. And this thing is built and I was like, there's no way. I'm a hot weather person.

I'm terrified I'm going to fall in a crevasse or something. Um, and then, you know, the Raytheon guys were coming in, it was finishing and I was training them all, how to use the control systems and teaching them how they would, um, use this chamber. And one thing led to another and sure enough, um, I got a job with Raytheon, uh, after graduation and went down there to help train people and set it up and was running the McMurdo.

Um, Sorta like put together cobbled together over so many years. Um, hydroponic growth chamber and the South pole one and flying back and forth between the bases every two weeks. Oh, wow. So how long did you do that for? So I was down there about six months. Um, and that's all I could. So I went for a summer season.

They wanted me to do a whole year and I, I PQ for a whole year. It's called you have to physically qualify to be able to go to Antarctica. So they send you to. Um, like to Raytheon for a day, it was in, uh, their offices were, I believe in Denver at the time. And you have to get everything checked. You have it's the best physical you've ever gotten, like a sonogram of every Oregon dental work.

Cause they like just can't especially if you want a PQ for winter, like they can't get you out. Right. So they test everything. Um, and they wanted me to PQ for a whole year in case like, um, and you have to go through a full day of like personality tests and screening to make sure you're not going to go crazy down there.

Um, and so I P queued for a whole year, but after six months, um, so the sun just went in a circle all day long. The sun never set the whole time. I was there. And then it was going into winter and I thought they were pretty trained up. So I, that was it for me. I did, uh, I did six months instead of a year.

And then we were supporting remotely, um, from back in Arizona. Wow. That is amazing. I can only imagine. And I do understand the whole psychological component of that disconnect from life. I mean, my gosh, I can't tell you how many times I've been in the front of the computer too many hours, and I've got to go out and take a walk out to the greenhouse just to kind of suck in that life.

I cannot imagine being in an environment like that, um, with no plant material at all and yeah, fresh dried, frozen. Uh doesn't. Yeah. So even that South pole chamber, even though there was the food production piece, it was. Separated by a glass wall with basically just like a rec room next to it, with couches and Hammond, so that you could just hang out there and be around and see the plants and be around the humidity and the smells.

Wow. Yeah, that's, that's amazing. That must have been quite an experience, um, and very unique. And, and of course now with all the, the work and attention on the space program, uh, food production programs, um, I mean, you were. Light years ahead of your time. And so is gene. Obviously gene is so well known for his innovation, but, um, really was kind of on the pulse of, of, of what the future had in store for us.

So that's, that's amazing. So you came back to Arizona, um, what kind of. Pushed you now back to New York with the idea of an urban farm and a rooftop farm. Yeah, I mean, so much of this is through my connection to Seattle. And so I think as soon as I got off the ice, um, Morel called Mae and he's like, these people want to build like, Greenhouse is on a barge in New York city.

This sounds crazy to me, but this sounds like a job that was just like made for you. So I'm going to set you up to go meet with these guys. And so he just called me and I think I was even already in New York already. Cause my family was in New York city. Um, and yeah, so he connected me to New York sun works, which has sort of changed over the years as an organization.

Um, but yeah, so right when I got off the ice, uh, it was, uh, sort of previous version of what New York sun works was. And they wanted to build, um, Ted Kaplow was overseeing it at the time and he wanted to build the science barge. So he was just so passionate about the environment and, uh, specifically about water, more than anything else.

And so he wanted to build an environmental education center, um, about food, water, and power. So the idea was that we would build this floating, um, education center on a barge and it would tour Manhattan and go around different docs. And so we put, um, a couple of greenhouses. Um, on that barge, we had solar panels, wind turbines.

We had a generator that ran off of biofuels that we went to, you know, local restaurants to get waste oil from. We had a reverse osmosis system to get, um, water out of the river. We had a rain water catchment system off the greenhouse roof. We had construct a constructed wetlands if there was any discharge, um, that needed to be taken care of and it was met.

And then we built curriculum around it. And so that project, I mean, that was a lot of fun to build that project. Um, and just even moving it around, getting to be on the greenhouse is like the, you know, the tugs move the bars around to different docs and going through the permitting process of getting this into all the different, um, peers around Manhattan.

And so we did that and we were growing, um, we did tomatoes, cucumbers, melons. Uh, bell peppers, hot peppers, eggplants lettuces, green strawberries. I mean, we grew everything there. Donated all the food. Um, and that after about two years, um, the science barge was donated to another organization to operate it, um, full time.

And, uh, New York sun works sorta morphed into what it is today, which is, uh, they have their, um, green, their school greenhouse program. And they it's amazing, um, what they have built over the last 10 years also of just, uh, Greenhouses, um, and CLA and science classrooms all over New York city. I haven't checked out what number they're up to, but they have quite a few.

And so, um, they've turned into an organization again, just such a great resource for teachers, um, for how to use, um, this, to get kids excited about this field. Amazing. Yeah. A lot of people don't know about the science bars. So if you're listening and you haven't seen it, there's plenty of videos on YouTube.

Um, a lot of information science barges, who is a really amazing, uh, amazing project. And again, in to your work early on the educational component from so many different angles, um, is just absolutely amazing from, and that's how we first got connected to American hydroponics too. Cause I. You know, I had to figure out what sort of growing systems to put in there.

And it just not being a greenhouse on the ground. We couldn't bury anything. We needed something that would work, that you could just set on a barge and we needed something that then people could buy to use at home, you know, and let schools, and, you know, just, uh, the average person could wrap their mind around too, you know?

And so, uh, the kids that you guys have, we used a lot of your systems on that project. Yeah, it was so straight. And that was actually prior to my being, I had done some consulting work for Michael Christian and for some of his growers. Um, but yeah, that was, that was an amazing, uh, project. The more I learned about it as it was developing, I remember Michael.

Yeah, Eric and I worked a lot on that together. Michael says, Joe, they're going to be putting a growing system on a boat. Excellent. So what else can we do? I don't know. Maybe we can put one on a roof. How about that? And so, so you're, so you did the work with, with the science Barnard, with New York sun works and then lo and behold decided, Hey, let's, uh, let's, let's innovate again and let's, uh, utilize some unused space.

Great. Yeah. And so then, um, and then Gotham green. So, you know, in New York I met barrage and Eric and, um, we got connected and. You know, the three of us, I mean, they're really like the entrepreneurs of the group, you know, really like the growth mindset and let's build a business I'm a little too, maybe risk averse and conservative to take the jump, but they were like already and, you know, um, I just, uh, as like a technical pro, like the three of us are just great partners, you know?

Cause when we met, we have such different strengths and skill sets. And so I think that that's really been what's made, got them green successful is like how different the three of us are, you know, at the top too. Um, and so the three of us met and uh, started Gotham greens just with this idea of, you know, how can we, you know, Is there a viable business in this is urban farming there.

I mean, just from the science barge and just meeting so many people over the years, uh, there was a growing interest in local food. There was certainly a demand in New York city. Um, but could it really be a viable business? You know, there were a lot of like, Instances where you'd have right. School gardens, um, community gardens.

I mean, people have always been farming in the city, right. A lot, you know, you could say that that's why cities exist is because of agriculture. And so there's this natural connection, but the farms get sort of pushed out over time. And so, you know, it was just this idea of like, all right, can we do this?

And so we started to put the business plan together. So. I think we really jumped in. We quit our jobs in 2009, and we're like all in at that point. And we had the first greenhouse we were selling produce out of the first greenhouse by 2011. Um, so we've really been fully, um, in business for 10 years now.

Um, but working together for 12 and, um, yeah. Yeah. So besides that, there were these examples, it's just like, could this could a company like this exist without being dependent on grant money? You know, like, can you do the economics makes sense? And, um, Eric is, you know, our CFO. Um, Varage is our CEO that works on, you know, Varage focuses on business development and sales.

And Eric focuses on, um, the finance and, you know, I'm focused on the greenhouse design and growing operations. And so it's, um, a really complimentary skill set to be able to pull this kind of a business off. And I think, I mean for now we have greenhouses on the ground and on the roof and we ended up on the roof.

Um, Really because we were focused on using a greenhouse, you know, um, I think we're all, I mean, especially Varage, but all of us are so passionate about sustainability and we just felt that the most renewable resource is the sun. And, um, certainly. Somewhere like South pole, it made sense for us to be completely inside.

Right. I mean, it's just, it's not thermally. You can't run a greenhouse when it's negative 60 degrees outside, even, you know, half the year it's dark and it just didn't make sense. So we had to be fully enclosed, but no, in New York we really wanted to use the sun. Um, and so we're like, where are we going to put this thing in New York city that we have access to the sun?

There's a lot of tall buildings and I mean these, so we started looking. We looked at peers, we looked at vacant lots and, um, it's hard to find these spaces. Now there's so much interest in this. It's easier to find real estate, but at the time it's not like you call like commercial real estate brokers, and they don't even know what you're talking about.

This kind of stuff. Wasn't in the building code the way it is today. Like now if you. Tell a city, you want to do this, like there's precedent for this and the building code. And at the time there wasn't, you know, this was very complicated to get these things permitted. So dealing with the structural engineering and the permitting, um, to use a rooftop, what we can come back to that.

But yeah, we were looking at vacant lots rooftops and we ended up on the roof. Um, Mostly because of the light, you know, and we knew if we were on a roof that there wouldn't be, you know, some bills built to the South of us that would shade the whole greenhouse. Cause it's an expensive, it's capitalized, capitally intensive to do this.

Right. So we couldn't risk like a vacant lot where the, it might end up shaded by adjacent buildings. Um, so it was, um, Access to the light and it was a good real estate deal. It's like found income to the landlord, you know, whereas in, especially in New York city being on the ground right in the city, I mean, a farmer can't afford that unless it's like a, more of a community garden, um, type facility.

And so after we got this, um, up again, huge hurdles being, figuring out, like, how are you going to attach this thing to a roof? Um, getting through all the, you know, structural engineering and the expediting and permitting, um, I mean, I guess everything was a challenge. It was all hard, but very exciting. It was all completely new.

And people think, I mean, people, I don't know the exact figure, but people say there's somewhere around 15,000 acres of roof space in New York. What rooms are not. Whether it's an industrial building, a residential building rooms are not designed to be just a flat space for a greenhouse. You have ventilation, you have a lot of infrastructure and most roof membranes are not designed to carry a greenhouse.

So, I mean, really, not only are you looking for space, as you said, like exposure, but also to just finding an appropriate roof and having a building owner that doesn't think you're completely insane. Yeah. And so with our, we've done four rooftop greenhouses. Now two of them have been new construction and two of them have been retrofits onto existing buildings each with like, you know, unique ways that that attachment and building design happens.

And so when you're retrofitting onto an existing building, yeah, there really is a huge structural engineering piece to make sure you. It's hard enough to find an open roof to begin with. Um, but then to find one where the building can take it. Uh, luckily, you know, in New York, there's a lot of really old pre-war buildings.

I mean, one of the buildings that we're in, I think it was an old printing press. I mean the roof, it's not now everything now on a roof. It's just like metal deck with insulation. They're not, it's not meant to take another story on it, but some of these buildings in New York, I mean the roof is like an eight inch concrete deck.

Um, so there are some really strong buildings, um, that you can do this on, but you still have to think through, it's not only just like how you attach the greenhouse columns. Um, but there are a lot of other point loads to consider and water tanks and, um, they're, it's a complicated besides all the snow loads and live loads.

Yeah. All the dead loads there, there's a lot to figure out about how you're going to design that building. Yeah. There was a lot to it. You don't have the underground nutrient reservoirs that you can bury. Like you're doing a great, yeah. So, so it took, uh, uh, you know, a couple of years you, you developed your processes, you've developed the business.

Um, you, you slowly expanded and it was, it was interesting to watch Gotham, you know, put up a new system here, build a new greenhouse there. And then all of a sudden, the last two and a half, three years, things have really taken off. So, so kind of, how did that, how did that happen? Where did you, how did you decide to go that route of the expansion?

I mean in the beginning we quickly saw, I mean, the first one was this proof of concept. Right. And, uh, but we quickly saw how much demand there was for it and became very sure that the economics were there, that this was a profitable business. This was a good idea. Um, and so quickly after that, we built our second greenhouse, which was in partnership with whole foods.

Um, they've been such a great partner with us and we built, um, a greenhouse on top of a new store that they were building, um, in Brooklyn. It was like they were building the first ever lead platinum grocery store. And they said, it makes so much sense for you guys to put something on the roof here. Um, there's so much tie-in and we'll sell everything downstairs.

So we did that project. But again, just quickly sold out. Can't be capacity. So the greenhouse has had to start getting bigger. So we built a larger one in New York city, again, on her roof. And by this point, you know, we were just feeling so great about the business, um, that we just said, um, could we try this in another city?

Like how would this go? And so that was around I think, 2000. Um, God, what year would that have been 2015, maybe that we opened, um, in Chicago and that, um, you know, uh, method had approached us that has, um, they're very similar company, ethos as us. And they have like the teardrop shape, you know, hand soaps might be the way that you're the most familiar.

That was new construction there too. Right. And granted, like we weren't going to sell the produce downstairs, but you know, they had reached out and said, you know, we really love we're building the first ever lead platinum manufacturing facility. And we really want to do something innovative with the roof.

Like, what do you guys think about doing a greenhouse in Chicago? And we were already, you know, we were already talking about like, which was going to be the next city, making all the plans. And so it was just a really good synergy with them. And so that was our first expansion into a new market. It went incredibly well, again, just sold out so quickly.

Um, having built our largest greenhouse yet at that time and said, okay, um, let's really, you know, figure out how to do that. And once, once we got into a second city too, there's a big learning curve too, of like, all right, now we're managing a decentralized company and how is that going to work and building the business?

Um, so, you know, we learned so much during that process and really built up the team that then was ready to scale. And so there has been a tremendous amount of growth in the last couple of years and now on the ground, which it's funny cause that's, what's normal to people, but that was a learning curve for me to just build like a regular greenhouse on the ground.

Um, so, you know, then we did, um, uh, we needed another one in Chicago very quickly. So we built another one on next door in Chicago, one in province, 19. Was it. Yes. Yep. Those three came online in 2019 Chicago, Providence in Baltimore. Um, and those were really exciting and always, you know, um, something that weaves through all of this is just always picking like.

What's the right level of technology. What's the right equipment to pick. Like these are not easy answers. Um, there's no one right way to build this business. There's definitely wrong ways, but there's no one right way. And there's so many ways to package together the technologies and. There are difficult decisions to make, you know, and I, I face this every day being so focused on the greenhouse design and again, picking the right level of technology for the products that we're going to grow, putting the plant first, always.

And what are the products? How many different kinds of products do you want to do? How big is the facility? You know, what's the geography, what's the local climate where you're at. Um, there's so many decisions. And so in some ways we've become this very decentralized business and. In some ways for me, it'd be easier if I was just stamping out the same thing everywhere.

Right. If every facility was like a Starbucks and just look the same everywhere, a few little tweaks, you know, for what the footprint is, but it's not like that in our business, you know, you have to change everything to get the quality. I mean, we're so driven by the quality of the final product that that's like the true differentiator and.

You have to change the system, you know, in different areas too, to be able to deliver that. And again, just, you know, the right level of technology for what size facility it is. So there were a lot of changes as we got bigger in that area. Um, and so we had those three and then most recently we opened, um, our Denver greenhouse as COVID was unfolding.

I mean, we had this under construction and so it was really. Amazing that our team was able to finish, commits, commissioning that a new location in spring 2021. We were just getting all the news. Um, and, uh, it was about a year ago today. We opened that greenhouse, um, when we all were just facing our new reality and managing it, no.

Is that the biggest construction that you just did so far? Denver? Yes. No, that one was smaller. Our, um, the Chicago, Baltimore and Providence are each about a hundred thousand square feet, and those are the largest greenhouses right now. And then we just announced our newest location, which is getting closer to you.

And now we're going to be, um, in Davis, California. And so that's really exciting that we're getting ready to open that greenhouse. Now, now you have a cooperative, uh, relationship as well as academic institutions. Yeah, sure. And that piece is so important, you know, really, I, um, I, I feel very strongly connected to a lot of the universities who have a focus on CA in the U S and talk to a lot of the faculty.

Um, and I just think, you know, With these, this partnership in particular, we are so close to campus, um, that there are a lot of different ways that we can partner together. And some of the things that, you know, I'm just so passionate about is, you know, how to engage the university on specific projects.

Some of which we've started already with them, um, on some research projects, but also just workforce development and that. Is not necessarily unique to UC Davis, but, uh, all the universities with a CA program. Um, because as I'm sure you guys have heard is this industry is just booming and there's not the talent needed to run all these facilities.

And, you know, everyone is always looking for growers and. You need a tremendous amount of experience to juggle all the variables in a greenhouse. And so I just think it's so important. Um, and I really enjoy working with all the universities in any of their workforce development efforts. Yeah, that's a critically important part.

I mean, we have such a, a shortage of experienced growers and such a, such a knee. Um, a lot of people right now, obviously the focus is, as you've seen is on technology. Um, and it's such music to my ears to hear you talking and echoing Merle's teachings and Jean's teachings about the plant, right? And focusing on that, it really is the systems.

Uh, it's about the productivity, as well as the economics. It's, it's gonna have to have the right systems, the right application of the technologies and, um, you know, all of those pieces. But without that new crop of growers, you know, the technology is a great tool, but it's not a replacement. For growers. So it's so great to see you.

So you see you doing that. So w what are you looking at as far as Davis, as far as size and set up, is it going to be kind of very similar to your existing model? Similar to our other ones? Um, it's a little more than a hundred thousand square feet at that location. I should know the number off the top of my head, but I don't know.

Would that be a rooftop one or that one's on the ground also? Yeah. Wow. So it was, if you didn't have enough, what do you see? Um, as far as Gotham, as well as the industry going forward, what are you seeing as where, where do you see this all heading? I mean, cause you know, it's really, it's been the wild West and there's been so much interest and all this, but obviously a lot is shaking out in terms of the technology and the players and the growers, um, who are, who are producing and putting product in the markets.

We hear a lot of companies. Talking and yelling and screaming and all that. And we have other companies that are doing so kind of, where do you see Gotham fitting into that? Where do you see the industry as a whole going? Yeah, I think, I mean, all the growth is exciting. You know, all the capital that's flowed into this space is very exciting.

I mean, it helps fuel some of the innovation and technology developments. I mean, even if you think about like how much. Cannabis has probably done for our industry to help, you know, push led lighting to where it is today, the developments in LEDs, um, and for horticulture specifically, and how much the efficiency is going up year over year.

And the price is going down, just this boom of this industry, like helps everyone. Um, And so I think, I think it's going to continue to grow. I think, you know, if you look at something like tomatoes, that used to be a predominantly feel grown crop, I believe now we're about 70% an indoor. Crop. And, you know, it's because of the advantages in this kind of growing system, when you can get the, and it's a combination of all the factors, it's like the right, you know, genetics and breeding, it's the right technology.

It's the right growing practices. And with that, you could now move from these determined and Bush type varieties into indeterminant varieties that can grow 10 months long that you could use all the verticals. Um, that you could get high productivity per unit area, great quality. Um, it just made a lot of sense.

And so the market and industry just developed together. And so I think that is now going to play out with some other crops. Certainly that's happening with lettuce. Um, you know, lettuces, uh, has some of the top spots of like most consumed vegetables in the U S it's a huge market. Um, and we just know whether, you know, it's about.

Uh, sustainability food safety, I mean, and the food safety scares, especially in the leafy green industry. Recently you have pressure from the customers at the end, you know, the suppliers, the retailers, a lot of pressure on food safety, that it is harder for field growers to manage some of the traceability with the way that industry has been built and the co-mingling and how complicated that supply chain is.

So I think, um, food safety, The high yields again, just because of the automation and the technology, everything related to indoor growing makes sense for leafy greens to be the next crop. So right. The market pressures of food safety with the technology developments, I see that happening for leafy greens.

What happened with tomatoes? So there's a lot of opportunity there. Strawberries are, you know, starting to become it, looking like that is going to make a lot of sense. Uh we're again, like the market demands and the quality and the prep, the growing operations, all that's going to, you know, align for strawberries to become an indoor crop.

Certainly cannabis, you know, had a big impact in our industry, um, herbs. So I, I, I think that there is going to be, um, certainly an upward trajectory for a long time. And then there'll be some sort of, um, shake out amongst all of it. Right? Like some of it's just going to tr even if it's indoor and seems high tech, it's still.

Uh, there's gonna turn into a commodity, you know, and there'll be just like now, like tomatoes, even if they're in a greenhouse, a lot of these they've operations, they have to drop, you know, 30 acres at a time because of the price of a tomato. And so that will start to happen over time with lettuce too, that it becomes, you know, even premium greenhouse will become commodity except, and, but there'll be different kinds of players.

Like large-scale commodity versus like premium niche, like locally focused, um, groups also. Yeah, for sure. But we are seeing too, not only on the consumer's end, but we're also seeing from the, uh, and I'm sure you, you, when you deal with, um, the different grocery stores, the, the, the, uh, fresh produce industry in general, um, we have customers paying a premium for, for the products and demanding it for all the reasons from the sustainability, um, limited or no pesticides locally produced.

But then also to a lot of other kind of intangible factors, like shrink loss, um, like, you know, people's understanding of the nutritional value and the breakdown and in shipment and all that. So yeah, we've seen that a lot in terms of kind of market shift where we're eating about the same, maybe a little bit more leafy greens as a, as a consumer, but by and large, what we're doing, we're, we're shifting away.

Um, from that field production into control them rhyme and ag source products. But, uh, certainly as you said, that there, there is that kind of commoditization of products, but it's, it's, it's really fascinating to watch how everything is just unfolding and, and, and, you know, changing and, and, and a lot of trends that I've seen in my, you know, my years in the industry, you know, they kind of.

Come and go and they kind of repeat themselves and it is fairly cyclical and it's, it's really exciting to see, you know, Gotham and the work that you're doing, kind of following that and really leading the field all the way through. So, so that's really exciting. What do you think are some of the biggest surprises or are there, have there been any big surprises for you over the years?

Um, along your journey? Um, Oh, gosh, I don't know how to answer that question. Um, it's just been really exciting, really exciting and really hard, you know, it's, uh, even though we get more and more experience with it, it's just, um, it's, uh, always just like making sure that we make the right decisions all the time.

Um, you know, and all the equipment that we're, that we're just really focused on building our capacity, you know, just always staying focused on the like, As we become decentralized and have more work to do, like never losing our primary focus on like building the best quality plan and the best quality team, you know, to be able to run the business.

Nick, any questions? I think actually I do have one question. We actually asked this question a lot, like most of our guests, but if you can go back into time to the twelve-year-old Jen, um, what kind of advice would you give her? Wow. These are, um, the 12 year old gen. Gosh, what would I have? What grade? What grade is that?

Um, probably like seventh grade or something when you're 12 years old. Um, I think that I wish, um, I had had some exposure to being a nature lover even early. And that's something that I'm trying to do with my kids. I think that, um, you know, I've learned that as an adult and I'm just a huge nature lover.

Um, and I think, I, I wish I had more exposure to that as a kid or someone who could have like gotten me out into the woods more, you know, it's just something, if you think about something that's so nice about being in this field too, is that, you know, around plants all day and then you can go to the city and you have all that, but just really.

Like, whether it's not getting disconnected for your, from your food or not getting disconnected from nature. I think these are important things. And so I have three kids. And so with my kids, you know, we have these guys, even our two year old can hike like two miles now. Um, so, you know, it's like just making sure, I just think instilling like that love for nature and a young person is, is really good for anything they're going to do in the future.

That's amazing. Do you have any advice for any new people entering the industry? Whether they're looking to be a grower, just some somehow be involved, obviously there's a lot of interest. What would you, what advice would you give everyone? Um, I think it depends on, you know, what age they're starting, but certainly if they're going to school, just finding them, making, like, finding the school that has as you know, a great program.

And there, there are a lot of good programs in the U S that have a focus, um, on CA and so whether you're an undergrad or going to grad school, um, I think, you know, you have a CX, certainly, um, Ohio state, Cornell, Michigan state, Purdue, Cal poly. You know, a lot of these have like very greenhouse focused programs and there's more than that.

I know I'm missing some people, but, um, it'd be great to get plugged in to one of the schools that can really set you up for success. Fantastic. So we normally ask at the end, uh, guests, um, how can people get ahold of you? How come you will follow what you're doing, but God, them has such an amazing social media presence.

I think that kind of goes without saying, um, There's there's so many different ways to, to follow you, but, um, certainly if, if you have any, um, thoughts, as far as how people can kind of keep in touch with it with your, your day to day activities, that'd be great. Yeah. Certainly just to follow any of Gotham greens, social media, and also, you know, feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn.

That would be a good way to reach me too. Amazing. Well, Jen, thank you so much. We really appreciate it. Your insight, all of your experience. I mean, really Jen and, and, and everyone at Gotham has been so instrumental in moving the, not only the urban farming movement forward, but of course controlled environment general.

And so, um, we have, uh, Jean coming up on a future episode as well, as well as Morocco. If you can help us get Dr. Jensen to come on and we would have him as well. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for everything you bring in the business and thank you for spending your time with us. Thanks so much guys.

Great talking to you. Have a good one. Thank you everyone. Have a great day. Bye.