027: Alex McMeekin - Riverside Growers

In this episode Joe and Nick interview Alex McMeekin a grower in Canada.

More about Alex McMeekin
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-mcmeekin-15bbb190/

More about Joe Swartz:
Website: https://amhydro.com/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/HydroConsultant

More about Nick Greens:
Website: https://www.nickgreens.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/InfoGreens

Transcript

Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of the poly greens podcast. I'm Joe Swartz from ma'am hydro, along with my friend and colleague, Nick greens of the Nick greens grow team. And we're here to talk to you again today about all things controlled environment agriculture. So we always love talking with commercial growers of different sizes.

We've had a couple amazing guests on, um, but we were really great guests today. Um, I met, uh, Alex McMeekin oh gosh. About five years ago now. Um, came down to, uh, attend with his wife on am, hydro hydroponic, growers seminar, and they were telling us about where they're from. And they're basically, and I'm sure Alex will tell us all about it, but they're up in hay river in the Northwest Canadian territories.

And we started talking about the climate. Of course, we think about Canadian. Production and obviously the climate up in Canada. And then we started doing a little perspective. And so basically we're in Northern California and we did a little calculation and found out that hay river is very far to the north up near the Arctic circle, the distance between hay river and Northern California.

It's about 1800 miles. So for perspective, it's about the same distance between New York city and Miami beach. So imagine that distance, uh, going north from Northern California. So, so definitely in controlled environment, ag, we, we tend to, um, think about the different types of climates that we can grow in, but usually we're not dealing with a climate as harsh as that.

So obviously in a, in an area like that, where food production is very challenging. Um, Alex and his family have some tremendous opportunities, but obviously they also have some, some challenges. And so we're really happy to have Alex on today. Uh, he is with Riverside growers. He's going to tell us a little bit about himself and his, his growing operation, and, um, hopefully will provide some really valuable insight to all of you today.

So, uh, Alex, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it. Um, tell us a little bit about yourself and what, what got you into farming? What brought you to hydroponics? Hey, Joel. And Nick, thanks for having me on it's a real pleasure. Um, yeah, so going, getting us into hydroponics there. It's yeah.

Where do I start? You know, I've been up here in the Northwest territories now for 15 years or so. Uh, and you know, one of the things we noticed was, you know, obviously we were, we're a long ways from your center cities and stuff like that. Right? So supply chains a little bit far now, The misconception is, you know, that's all they're up north, you know, they'd be like nothing.

I mean, we, we do have quite a bit here and, you know, we are connected by highways and transportation, but certain things are always lacking. Um, agriculture up here. It's not, it's not something new. I mean, it's been around for a long time. We've had a lot of history here, um, with some of the kinds of pioneers up here growing, um, it took it.

Seemed like it took a little bit of a backseat for a few years, but it's always been active and we decided, you know, what can we do to, to bring some more value to our territory and, you know, try and help grow some quality produce, uh, fresh and hopefully competitive and pricing. Um, one of the big things up here obviously is transportation costs.

And so, you know, it was looking at, okay, well, how can we, how can we help curb that? Yeah. So we started a small 30 foot table, basically from you guys after our meeting and our cadence. And, uh, yeah, from there we spent about, oh two years, three years getting that kind of role and getting our head wrapped around it, uh, building our markets, getting used to, you know, basically growing with it and, and dealing with our climates, which is, um, up here, it's averaging.

Um, you know, come, come summer, winter solstice there, we started gaining light anywhere from four to six minutes a day, all the way until June 21st, where then of course the tables turn. So, you know, that in itself can be a bit of a challenge. Um, but you know, we do have optimal light here. Um, even when it's very cold in February then.

Yeah. So from there then we decided to expand on after seeing, seeing that there was value and, uh, there was a market for the product. Okay. Now, did you have a farming background? Huh? So I grew up in Southern Ontario. Um, definitely. Surrounded by agriculture, my whole life, you know, always playing on dairy farms with one of my good buddies.

And, uh, as a young kid, too, I worked on a mushroom farm. Uh, it's funny, actually, I was talking with friends of mine and I said, I can never think of going back to a packing house, putting stickers on, on packaging and labels. And here I am now, you know, twenty-five years later doing the same thing. So, um, so yeah, you know, working on that, uh, yeah.

And then just being surrounded by it. Um, our family. My grandfather, you know, when he immigrated from Scotland there, they had a farm in new Lowell, Ontario, um, small family farm. And then my dad, when he was young, you don't work tobacco same with my grandmother. And, uh, then yeah, that's kind of our history in it.

So fast forward, you, you set up a farm, obviously you came down, you, you spent some time with us. Um, you went back, brought. Hydroponic technology, uh, up to the Northern territories. Um, tell us about maybe those first few seasons, as far as dealing with the climate. I mean, do you set up a greenhouse, correct?

Yes. Yes. We set up a small greenhouse. Um, we, you know, looking at the economics of it was difficult because, you know, obviously the system was still pretty small. We couldn't really afford to be dumping major heating into it for, uh, the lower production coming out of it. And what's the, what do you mean by the word?

A small, is that a, like, what's, I believe, uh, am hydro refers to it as their NFT 1200. Um, so basically what I think that's what, 30, 40 feet of table and Joe. Yeah. It's basically 12 feet wide by 20 feet long. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So actually, yeah, we were a little bit bigger than that, but uh, yeah, very, very small attendance despite the garden style.

Um, so yeah, in those first couple of years, you know, we, uh, You know, is it okay? Well, Hey, you know, we've got to get a bit of heat here to get our season started earlier to extend it into the season, you know, into the late fall. Um, then then dealing with extreme eights, you know, um, although we are far north, you know, with the long, long days, we do get some very hot days.

So, you know, it's not uncommon. It's uncommon to see the, you know, 30 degrees Celsius. Um, Temperatures through the day and for prolonged periods of time. So, you know, we got a shade and cooling and then yeah, before, you know, it's, the sun starts disappearing and it's getting cold again. And you're trying to button everything up and keep the Eden.

Um, yeah. Um, right now it's May 7th. Um, roughly what, uh, how long of a day do you have up there right now? Oh, geez. What are we now? I it's funny. I don't even keep track of it anymore. I just kind of go with the light time in the morning. Does the sun come up and what time does it set? A proxy? Yeah, so I think right now we're at about six 30.

I was up at five 30. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's daylight around five 30, um, in the morning. And then. Yeah, probably dusk nine 30, 10 now. Wow. So a lot of people think that's really, you know, kind of perfect to have the longer days, but as you look at a climate, like where Alex is at, um, that changes very rapidly.

So you're going from a couple of hours of sunlight in the winter time to a very long extended day in the, uh, in the summer. And so that obviously creates some challenges with scheduling your crops and trying to estimate your production when you were first getting rolling and starting different crops.

Was that something that you struggled with? Absolutely. And we still, we still try and balance it. You know, one of the things this year is we, we've spent a little bit more time in our propagation area there, and even just some supplemental lighting. Um, and I've noticed this year, you know, always in may, uh, April, may there we'd get really good crop production, but we're almost growing a little too fast right now.

Um, So, you know, that always throws a wrench into things where you're trying to, you know, balance your scheduling with what crops are coming off and what's going in hoping that they don't get too, you know, packed in. Um, yeah, it's ever changing. And now, after going through last year with this larger greenhouse, you know, we kind of know what's coming.

Um, so in August we know we'll have a little bit of a slowdown, so, you know, we plan for that. And, and then yeah, in the fall, um, we've got a plan for. You know, other things slowing down too. So switching the crops over to something a little bit more productive. So after you got started with the smaller system, you made the decision to go ahead and expand and build a larger greenhouse.

How large was that? Uh, so the new one is a 32 by 130. Um, we have two 90 foot runs of tables. And then with that, it's actually, this year, we've just purchased another, uh, two 70 foot runs a table and we'll be, but not into a 96 foot green house. Fantastic. Uh, what, what do you, uh, what do you see kind of as, as your, your biggest challenges as a, as a grower.

You know, obviously, you know, we're still pretty small, so we have to work within, uh, within a smaller budget. So there's, there's certainly some equipment we'd like to, you know, have in there to help control the environment a little bit better. Um, I think the biggest challenge is just that constant change that we have here.

And, you know, it's funny, we got to, I was asked by a reporter there before you know, about the environment. Does that play in an effect on things and. Kind of in a controlled environment, you know, and you're always messing with it. And I thought to myself, I said, you know, as farmers we've always been challenged by the environment and it's always changing.

Um, so I think that's probably one of the biggest challenges. Um, Up here. Um, Nicole obviously is another one. You know, we, we would like to push through all year, but, uh, you know, we have to look at the economics of it too and say, you know, um, obviously supplemental lighting, we'll be shooting up our heating expenses, uh, climb tremendously, and then transportation too.

You know, if you're delivering stuff and it's minus 40 oats, you know, your vehicles, you gotta be prepared, but it takes a pounding and equipment, you know? Bromine freezes. So you got a heap, so yeah. So roughly now, how late into the season do you grow? And then when do you pick it up again? So this year we pushed, this was our first year with this new greenhouse.

And we pushed into the week before Christmas. And, you know, that was, we were pretty happy with that. Uh, we knew there was going to be some challenges and part of the reason we wanted to push that fire was to, you know, you can study these things all you want and, you know, plan for this lighting plan for this.

And we said, you know what? We just got to do it and see what we're up against. And we made some changes with our lighting, um, a bit of changes with our propagation. And unfortunately, as we were getting close to Christmas there, we were starting to see the changes, but the costs were prohibited and we decided to shut her down.

Um, that being said, though, we did fire up February 22nd. And, you know, the lighting that we started getting at that time is I think we're back up to nine hours, 10 hours a day. And, you know, I was like, okay, well, we've got the light, we're just fighting the coal. So, you know, we work with that. And, uh, it's interesting though, cause we don't want to shut down.

You know, we have to look at, if we do shut down, we'll obviously we have zero revenues. And when we start up, we've got, you know, that six, seven weeks of growing with expenses of no, no revenues again. So trying to find that balance in there is kind of key. But again, looking at the economic realities, what's going out the door versus what's coming back in, of course, absolutely.

And you know, then that's one of the reasons too, why we went this route up here is, uh, you know, obviously we've, we're not shy of challenges when it comes to, you know, high costs, whether it's electricity, gas, um, you know, taxes, land, um, you know, transportation between communities, um, You know, we wanted to make sure we went up with something that was productive, that we could get, you know, a quality product that would get it out economically and still be able to turn across it, which is something that, uh, you know, you just need to be focused on.

So once you, once you first got started and then expanded, obviously, uh, what you're growing your crop selection has evolved. Tell us a little bit about what you, what you, what got you to, to grow what you're growing and then how you've expanded that and how you market your products. I mean, we'll talk a little bit later about, but Alex and.

Uh, Riverside growers as a, as an amazing social media presence. So if you follow them on Instagram, that you can see just amazing pictures of some beautiful crops. So, so how do you end up doing what you're doing and then, and then putting it out into the marketplace and selling and deciding what to grow?

Yeah, that's always the challenge. I mean, some of it's, uh, some of it's a bit of a crapshoot, um, you know, uh, some of it is selected a lot more, but you know, those first two, three years, uh, When we were smaller, it was key to that, you know, we said, okay, well, let's play with this. Um, you know, like we try the spring mix, we used to grow in your, uh, nursery channels.

We liked it, but we found the chefs, you know, preferred someone with a little more body. Uh, so we switched over to a variety of head lettuce that we cut and blends and, you know, and that was, that was one way we came across it, uh, watercress, you know, we grow that and we actually grow that very well with, uh, surprisingly out of high demand for it.

And that was something that we said, you know, and watching other growers was like, you know, we can do it, let's trial it. And you know, it took off. And then yeah. You know, you're constantly, I mean, I think most growers are, you're always kind of playing around. You're always like, Oh, will this work? Will that work?

You know, let's, uh, you know, romaine is one, you know, it's very hard to compete against, you know, the Salinas in Yuma. You know, it's, that stuff makes its way up here and it's, it's, it's very cheap. So, you know, we fight you trying to find a productive head that we can be somewhat competitive with or, um, holds up to the heat extremes, the, just the swings.

So a lot of trial and error. Yeah. Yes. There's no shortage of that still. And that's ongoing that never ends. People always tend to think about that. They, they think, well, once we figure out our crop selection, we're just going to keep on growing. And, you know, we always tell people to have, you know, a few channels or set for certain section of your, of your operation to always be trialing new products.

You never know what's going to come down the pike. The fresh produce industry in general is incredibly dynamic. So how did you, uh, start getting your products to market? Like how did you sell them to either to, uh, retailers or to the chains or to direct to the consumer? How did you go about doing that?

Yeah, so we started out just small farmers markets, um, You know, we've done a very good, uh, community up here in the territory. A lot of, you know, there's a lot of support for locally grown, um, with us being so distant from our foods, you know, people when people want it. And yeah, so we started with the farmer's markets, which was good, direct sales to people, um, coming out to the property.

And then, uh, one of our local groceries here, you know, they were very open to the idea of receiving it and promoting it. So we started with those guys and then. From there we grew, um, obviously a river is a very small market and in our territory, Yellowknife is a much larger that's our capital, um, pretty cold.

It was, uh, a very busy tourism town. And, you know, so we reached out to restaurants there, a couple of girls jurors, you know, and get the ball rolling, showed them some products, you know what we're doing? And then, yeah, eventually, you know, you don't have to take that leap. And yeah, that's kind of where we, we move our stuff to how far away is yelling from you.

It is, I'm sure your viewers would probably think what the hell are we doing? But, uh, yeah, so it's from hay river one way. It's about 480 kilometers. Oh, wow. So, yeah, so we have, you know, uh, one day a week, there is our big delivery day, but, uh, you know, it's worth it to, uh, To get to market. You've gotta be creative up here.

And I think if there's any northerners listening to this, you know, they hear that. I mean, I drive to drive. We're so used to spending hours in a vehicle driving between communities. That it's really nothing to us. At least I don't feel this. Yeah. Well obviously, you know where you are, where the communities are, how they go about buying their food, all plays into.

Um, your marketing and distribution strategy. You know, we, we hear a lot about kind of that one size fits all. We're just going to drop a farm right here in the city, and people are going to flock to us and hand the product out, you know, literally, or we're going to just ship it all to one. Produce distribution center and then it's gone.

But the reality is in a lot of situations based on the population and where the distribution chains are, are kind of situated. You know, a lot of growers are bringing their product pretty significant distances. Obviously driving that distance in the snow I'm sure is a, an experience unto itself. Yeah. And you know, like where we are located here in the territory, I mean, you got to remember this territory is very large where I guess.

That's great. How many square miles we are, but I know we're larger than Texas. Let's put it that way, um, quite a bit. And it's, um, you know, the, the, where we are located here in hay river, it's a much better suited area for growing. And you know, when people think of the North, like, I, I don't think about that as being much different than Northern Alberta.

Um, you know, and they're, they're very agricultural centralized, you know, area. The growing here is good. And we were able to do it a little bit better in this area than let's say some of our other communities. So, you know, we have to figure out our transport situation where we can get it up to the larger markets and out to the people of the North.

Cause your operation is a, it's a family operation. Tell us a little bit about, uh, the next generation of farmers coming in. How many members total is on the family. Uh, so there's four of us, my wife she's partner in this with me. And then, uh, yeah, we have two children. We have a five-year olds and a recent one-year-old.

So it's, uh, you know, I'll never force anything on them. If they do want to get into agriculture, I'd be very happy. But, uh, yeah, no, it definitely throws a big dynamic into it. Uh, last year we, as we opened up the greenhouse, it was, I think our first harvest was first week in may, the third or fourth. And, you know, my son was born on the first, so that was a very busy time when it's been a busy year and yeah, no, it's, uh, it's eventful, but it's, it's enjoyable, which is the main thing.

And it looks like you get a little help in the greenhouse from time to time. From time to time. Sometimes it's a little, it can be a little disruptive, but it's all good. I did. I know, I know that one all too well. So, um, so you've also branched out into some different products. We've seen some, uh, you got some mother's day products going out, so again, you're kind of being creative with your marketing.

Yeah, we need to be creative. Um, and you know, like simple things, you know, a lot of the seed we already have, you know, um, especially Bazell anybody, you knows you and you're buying Bazell you, there's no shortage of that seed usually. So, you know, why not offer a bit of what we grow and bring it out for things like mother's day and, uh, just have some variety.

I think, you know, people. People like the variety they like coming out and seeing the experience. So, you know, that's what we want to build on. How about pest issues? People tend to think that in harsh climates like that, it's, um, uh, not conducive to outside, uh, pest pressure, but that's not always necessarily the case.

So tell us a little bit about your, your pest control programs. Yeah, so, I mean, obviously, you know, we want to, exclusion is number one. Yes, we have best. Um, I would think that we probably don't have Pesta as long as you guys have them, but, uh, you know, for instance, last year we had a. No, we managed to get some aphids in there which were extremely frustrating.

And, you know, fortunately we could kind of isolate them. Uh, we had to lose a bit of, you know, Bazell and some profit, but, you know, being able to isolate it's clean it out and kind of get it nipped. We were able to control it, but yeah, there's, there's no shortage. We have passed. Um, often by people that they're either growing in a real hot climate or a real cold climate, and they have that belief that, um, pest pressure really doesn't exist there because it's an inhospitable climate.

And I said, no, that's definitely not the case. In fact, sometimes it's even more. So, um, greenhouse is a very great place for some of those critters to get in and multiply quickly. Well, that's right. You know, we create the optimal environment for our plants while it's also an optimal environment for the pest, as well know when the outside is, is not so.

Yes. Yeah, we, uh, we're ever vigilant of it. So over the past year or so now that you've got the new greenhouse, so what do you, what do you think, um, again, hindsight being 2020, what do you, what do you think as far as the technology that you're using or your approach, uh, what, what changes are you going to make or, or modifications?

Did you think that if any, that you, uh, you think you're going to kind of work toward in the future? Uh, you know, we're constantly looking at things. Um, I think one of the biggest things up here is trying to find technologies. That'll help get our energy costs down and our operating costs. Um, As I said earlier, you know, we are a small family farm and our budget is limited.

And some of these, uh, some of these technologies are very expensive and some of them aren't necessarily proven yet either. Um, so we're, we're constantly looking at that, you know, like we'd love to have a, say a biomass boiler to help heat. Um, but to what scale, and you know, when we ran numbers on some of them before it was, it was more cost-effective to go back to probate.

And, you know, the maintenance, the labor and stuff like that's down on them. Yeah. I think a lot of growers, you're always kind of looking at a wishlist, you know, whether it's new lighting, you know, whether it's, you know, new technologies, things in the packing house. Uh, yeah, for the most part, we're just looking at technologies.

That'll give us, create us more efficiencies and to reduce operating costs because that's obviously it. You don't want challenge up here with higher rates? Yeah. A lot of alternative energies, um, even different energy conservation technologies. They sound great. They look great. Um, especially for a smaller scale grower, there is sometimes very difficult to implement and expensive to implement.

And a lot of them, particularly when you're looking at lighting, especially in a challenging climate like that, where it's not simply a matter of low light, but it's a matter of. Rapidly changing lighting conditions, staying ahead of that and, and effectively implementing that on a small or even a model middle size scale, uh, is, is difficult and is expensive.

And, um, and again, it's to what Alex said is, is that not all of it is proven, um, effective in those situations. So. The adoption of some of these technologies. I mean, some of the technologies obviously are, are, are proven and effective, but still a lot of them are not. So it's a, it is a slow process.

Sometimes frustratingly slow, um, as Alex was saying. Yeah. And I think, I think for small farmers, it's a big investment, you know, in, you really want to be confident that you're going to get your return. I mean, I'm a pretty skeptical kind of person on certain things. And, you know, I like to see that proof in the pudding.

So, how do you have you proved the pudding? Ah, you've always proved some numbers for sure. I know we get, definitely get some looks while we're running in the cooler seasons. So you didn't make money back from your initial investment? The S yeah, very, very good, uh, success to me, I guess. Right. What do you think the end of the day?

Yeah. For sure. That's a, that's at the end of the day, you're feeding your family, you're putting money back into your pocket and, and that's, that's the whole purpose of what you're doing for sure. So any big surprises, I mean, other than probably every day and a whole lot of them, but, but as far as, um, you know, since you started growing and to now looking back, um, anything really, uh, surprise you or, or, uh, things that you were not expecting.

Uh, I think, I think one of the biggest surprises was, you know, as we expanded and, you know, invested in better technologies and then the new greenhouse, you know, we really noticed the improvements on our crops. Now this year, you know, we're putting up another greenhouse, um, which will be a little bit better suited.

You know, when we first started, we weren't sure, you know, where things were going. We would have loved to dock or connect, but it just, it wasn't in the budget. Um, and we didn't know where things might be in a couple of years and hindsight is 2020. I wish we did put one out, but the new one will be. And, you know, seeing how much benefit when you really focus on your environment, um, you, you received, I think that's, that was probably one of the most encouraging surprises.

You know, we've seen as we, as we develop and grow are you're really looking at kind of that marriage of. Productivity, in other words, your ability to produce really substantial yields, but also high quality, you know, market competitive and market superior quality. But then again, balancing what, what does that cost on an economic standpoint and then finding that sweet spot of what you're spending and what you're bringing in.

Yes, exactly. And I mean, don't get me wrong. We still have a slew of problems. So I mean, Yes, it is controlled environment, but, uh, yeah, I get a kick, like, you know, everybody on their Instagrams and Facebooks and stuff like that. You look at it and I don't think many farmers ever show the heads that, you know, got that bolted or the tipper.

And then, you know, they don't show the stuff behind the scenes that often, but it does in, and all of the plants are just down because the not the pump went out and you didn't know. Yeah. That's uh, that happens for sure. You know, that's why you gotta, you really gotta be on your ball and, you know, make sure you're doing your checks, but, uh, yeah.

And that certainly happens, you know, get clogged up and, you know, there was a channel or two. Yeah. So no, once you have to call clients up and tell the clients that you didn't have lettuce because maybe you lost a batch or so definitely not. You know, we obviously try and plan for a certain, certain amount of shrink and, uh, You know, there's always going to be a bit of waste, so we try and plan for that as best we can.

So when someone tells you a controlled environment, ag you thought controlled environment, and then you control the environment and not the other way around, right? Yeah. I mean, we try that's it. And that's all we can do for sure. For sure. Um, tell us a little bit about your social media presence. Obviously, you know, uh, we, we have am hydro has a number of, uh, followers that.

Follow your Instagram and your Facebook and, and people love to see the pictures and, and, you know, even sometimes those bolted, uh, heads of lettuce or those plants that didn't turn out well, people really want to know about that. So tell us a little bit about what you guys do on social media and how you, uh, get your message and your images out.

Yeah, I'm glad that I'm glad you enjoy our social media myself personally. I try and steer clear of it as much as I can. Um, the way he handles a lot of it. Now I do, I do get on there, so definitely monitor it. But, uh, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a wonderful thing. And it's a terrible thing to sometimes. Um, yeah, no, we, we, we enjoy using it.

We. I haven't really thought too much about showing those bolded pictures, but that's like a thought as a, uh, you know, as a grower to, um, Yeah. I don't know really what to say about the, uh, the social media, how many people are contacting you on a daily? Do you get a lot of direct messages? I'm pretty sure a lot of people are reaching out and like, how are you, how are your plants looking so beautiful?

Uh, fortunately I don't get too much. Um, I'm, I'm pretty busy right now. So I, uh, I kinda, I kinda like my privacy. Um, but yeah, no. I mean, if somebody does want to reach out and ask questions, I mean, I have had a couple, uh, Growers are people actually looking at getting into growing contact us. And I do like sharing the knowledge where I can and help them be able to loads.

But, uh, yeah, I mean, uh, between Instagram, you know, the Riverside growers and T and, uh, Facebook is the same, you know, we try and we try and get some content out there and it is nice to share stuff. And it's nice to hear when people say, oh, you know, beautiful lifting stuff. Yeah. It's also one of those things too, where, you know, I, I try to spend more of my time focusing on getting props out then, you know, getting everything all over the social media.

It's really easy to, to make things look good. But the behind the scenes is the most important. Yeah, for sure. Um, so anyway, uh, any last thoughts on Nick, maybe as another question or two? I think I got a couple there. Um, so let's take it back to what you were saying faster, right? Um, cause I mean, there's a lot of people that are listening that when you said the plants are growing.

Almost too fast in their mind. They're thinking like, uh, Oh, wow. More money. Right? Like we can grow these plants faster, but I don't think they understand that sometimes there can be problems occurring with the plants growing too fast with crop scheduling and therefore, and so forth. Right. Absolutely. Yeah.

So like, I mean, where we, when it's in our finishing channels, there's also the, I do, you know, we try and keep a little bit of space for the, you know, those kinds of unknowns. Um, but you know, obviously we want to maximize and optimize everything that we can. So yeah, where we see it as in our nursery, um, you know, stuff's ready for transplants and we haven't harvest it, you know?

Um, we've got to make room for that. So leaving them in the nursery a little too long or in the propagation, you know, and then they start stretching out. Um, Um, you know, you're trying and transplant them and they're too tall. They'll fall over. And then they're spending all their time trying to, you know, get back up.

Right. And, you know, you're just losing, you know, productivity they're on plan. You're just stressing it out. And so it's, it's a bit of a balance that we, yeah, we constantly, you ever, you ever hear of the sane, uh, quicker, quicker means sicker. I actually, I haven't put that. Uh let's. Yeah, no, that's very good.

Grower came up with that. I've heard that somewhere and I can't remember where that phrase came from or what book it came from. Yeah, no, that's a good one. Well, every, every plant has got a genetic potential and as CA growers, we want to give the plant everything. It needs to meet that, uh, potential, but at the same time, and we hear a lot, we hear this on the industry a lot, you know, okay.

We can grow plants and we can grow heads of lettuce in six days. I've heard that one. Yeah. Famously, uh, more times than I care to talk about. But the, the, the bottom line is we don't. Push the plants to do something that's outside of their capabilities. What we need to do is listen to the plants and provide a and to Alex's point about scheduling the space.

So in a properly run CA system, obviously we're maximizing our space. So that kind of. Consistent weekly output is very important. And when something interferes with that, suddenly the plants maybe yeah. Are, are, are too close together for too long. And now all of a sudden we're violating these laws of horticultural science that suddenly we're taking the plants outside of their proper parameters.

And that's, that's when bad things happen. So, so obviously we want our plant growth to be a maximum. We want to be able to grow, uh, as fast as possible, but again, within. Cultural norms and not outside the realm of what, uh, what's advantageous for the crop. Cause that's again, where disease issues past issues really get ramped up of physiological, uh, problems.

So again, we're, we're looking at adjusting our environment, adjusting our practices, adjusting our systems to again, to, to fit into that. Last question is what would you tell your 12 year old version of yourself? What kind of advice would that be to that 12 year old version of Alex? Geez, there's so many things you'd change.

I think, I think one of the biggest things I look back on it now it's probably read more books, you know, uh, work harder on developing and you know, and growing yourself. I mean, After all, you know, we spend a lot of time, you know, focusing on the girls with our plants, but I think it's very important that we spend time Morgan on the growth of ourselves and our business as well.

You know, there's things, uh, yeah. You know, focus on that stuff. Change your brain. Actually, it wouldn't be moved to The Bahamas or anything like that. Well, you know, that's on the list for sure. I think maybe Jamaica, but, uh, we'll give that a few years. Excellent. Very cool. Well, Alex, thank you so much for sharing your experience and your perspective.

I mean, that's a very valuable thing. We gotta, you know, new grower didn't really know a lot about hydroponics studied, started small. Uh, that's really important. Uh, you know, he started with, uh, a small system learn what, what, what he's doing. Um, brought the whole family into it built is in the process of building a really great business, not only for his family, but for the community at large as well.

So really to me, that is the epitome of the success story. People always think, you know, well, when you're a millionaire or when you've expanded to 5,000 acres or when you're a national brand, that's the real success, but really the success is. All of the growers, day-to-day out there putting food out into their communities, feeding their families, improving what they're doing.

And, uh, and we think, uh, Alex just really embodies that. So, so thank you very much, Alex, for your, uh, for your time and for your experience. Um, um, uh, Riverside growers, hay river, and T a Riverside grows NT on social media. Please follow them. Um, we'll have more information. Um, about them and feel free to check them out on all the different social media platforms.

And, and again, thank you again, all of you for your time today. And, uh, please feel free to keep sending in questions and comments. We've got more great guests coming down the road in the next few weeks, but, uh, in the meantime, we thank you Alex for your time and thanks everyone for joining us today. And we hope you have a great day.

Thank you. Thanks a lot. Joe's real pleasure.