033: Bringing Water and Technology Together

In this episode Joe and Nick give updates on the hydroponic industry and talk about growing food indoors.

More about Joe Swartz:
Website: https://amhydro.com/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/HydroConsultant

More about Nick Greens:
Website: https://www.nickgreens.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/InfoGreens

Transcript

Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of the poly greens podcast. I'm Joe Swartz from am hydro along with Nick greens and the Nick greens grow team and had a lot of really interesting guests and a lot of really cool topics to talk about. So today we're going to talk a little bit, we're going to get a little more general.

We're going to kind of veer around a little bit. There's some cool things going on in the industry that we want to talk about. We have some questions from you. People have been sending us a lot of questions and, uh, and that's awesome. And we really appreciate that and encourage you to continue to send us more, but we've tried to pick out a few that might be of the most interest to people.

Um, so anyway, so Nick, what's going on. And I'm, you know, loving the weather, you know, yesterday it was a Shuster awesome, beautiful weather. The humidity dropped. It was like, it was like 65 between 70 here. And it's just, just amazing what the waterfront, and I'm just blessed to live by the lake right now.

You know, there's a lot of people, uh, you know, experiencing droughts right now, especially in, uh, the west coast and in India too as well. They're there to experience a lot of drought. So I'm just blessed, man. Oh, that's cool. All right. So Sheboygan weather has been good for you. Yeah. And some shout outs to, uh, um, uh, polka Joel out there, uh, hit me at a poker.

Huh? Very cool. They didn't know that. And I started talking about that to people and I don't think they realized that they got a polka Joe here. Not everybody that lives in Chicago. There's also Jeff from Sheboygan is very well known in the poker world. So I don't to people in control. They, they got a band together.

I know polka. Joe does have a band. I did, I did find some information on him about that. So they're going to be handling all the music for the poly greens podcast. Going forward. There we go. We gotta be on his show. I just got back from California. Um, we, I was up for a week and a half. We, uh, I am hydro had our, uh, our first in-person seminar in about a year and a half, which was really great.

I mean, So turn out well, we're sold out. Um, we keep it limited under 20 people because basically the first day we are in a really nice conference center. And, uh, we go through everything from basic botany, um, crop culture, nutritional management, IP. Um, to the hydroponics industry, what controlled environment is and isn't and how the tools are used.

Um, and then we go over in the afternoon to the H COE greenhouse. So that's, um, a commercial greenhouse that am hydro, um, uh, helps with in partnership with Humboldt county office of education. So basically at risk high school, students run this commercial greenhouse, and it's, uh, what size square foot is that greenhouse?

So that's just a little over 3000 square feet. It's a 30 by 96 and a 30 by 48 attached to it. So they have got, um, NFT leave crop systems, uh, propagation and, uh, micro greens. So, so let's say one of those systems, right? Like anybody that's listening out there is super interested in doing this with schools, which is a really hot topic right now in our.

Um, what, what does something like that costs like if you know, out of pocket or, or if they got a TIF grant or something like that. Okay. So, so you can do a couple of different things. I mean, we do a lot of work, you know, Stephen Ritz, who was on our, uh, podcast a while back, uh, who's an amazing educator who has such a reach in the, in the educational world.

Um, he has got a number of different systems. He actually, um, we just sent him another system. Um, recently, which is a 48, which is basically it's a classroom system. It's a two tiered NFT system on wheels. Totally. Self-contained with lights takes up about eight feet long by about three and a half, four feet wide, and you can move it around.

So it's mobile. So it's really a. Convenient and easy to have, you know, something like that for a classroom system. I mean, you can probably get it for under $2,000, um, complete, but, um, we also have schools that are actually running commercial, greenhouses, you know, a 30 by 48 or a 30 by 96 greenhouse. So obviously you're, you're looking at a bigger investment and then you can also put multiples these inside of a greenhouse as well.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean the, the tiered system is, you know, the only one that we do for education, that's layered that has, you know, lighting systems in it. Most of the systems that we have are actually basically scaled down versions of our commercial NFT systems. So you can have everything from a propagation system, which, uh, Both for seedling production and then baby greens production and microgreens production can all happen in those.

Would you, that that system is a modified NFT system and then just a standard NFTE channel system. So you can have everything from a 12 foot by 20 foot. Uh, self-contained system all the way down to something that's, you know, four feet wide by 12 feet long and it's, but it's still a commercial grade system.

So it's the same module of a system that you'd see actually in a larger scale commercial greenhouse. So, but it also got that wow factor when they see the vertical on it. Oh, certainly. And, and that system is really cool because in addition to having two layers that, you know, you can, you can do, um, full production, the whole thing, or you can do side-by-side because each one of them, each one of the levels has its own reservoir and pumping system.

So you can do, and that's actually what Steven's doing is he doing side-by-side trials so you can grow the same crop. Um, in writing within that same system, but you know, you can alter the nutrient program. You can alter the feeding cycles, you can alter the lighting. So there's a lot of different from again, from an educational standpoint, there's a lot of things you can do.

Yeah. Because I mean, a lot of people don't understand that when you have low lighting, you want to feed low when you have high lights. And if that's what you want to do, you can feed high. If that's what you're going for is bulk. Yeah. A lot of the schools are really interested in, in helping students to see things like that, where they do, um, experimentation to see how changing the impact.

Affects the overall output. Great experiments, great experiments. Yeah. So w you know, what, what is this do if we change our irrigation or we change the pH, how does that affect the overall quality, the productivity, the yields. And I would like to see them do different crops as well. Like, do all these crazy crops that no one's growing in the greenhouses, because it doesn't make sense for us growers that are doing it for price.

Yeah. No, absolutely. And, and even at Marshall, we're actually working, I can tell a little bit more about this story in a little bit, but we're, we're, uh, working on a commercial project down in Connecticut and this part of the, the overall production, it's a commercial facility, but they'll also be never ending R and D.

So there'll be a certain amount of growing channels in the system devoted to always trialing not only new varieties. Um, but, but totally different crops. And that's really where the innovation happens because, you know, regardless of where you are, markets change, opportunities change. And so, you know, the idea of just growing, you know, even chefs, even chefs, purchasing ability has changed.

W what, what they want under menu has changed. Like, yes, they, they want all of the regular lettuces and all of that stuff, but now I'm seeing some growers going to restaurants and being like, I don't have just regular lettuce. I have this crazy mustard and I have this crazy soil and I have all of these, these, these varieties that no one's growing in the chefs.

Yeah. Yeah. They're both, you know, doing additional varieties for it to have a, a greater array of crop offerings to sell more is all, is really important. But also, um, especially in the restaurant trade, you know, this is, these, these industries are very cyclical. People don't want the same thing all the time.

I mean, everyone, everyone that I talked to and everyone that I've, you know, all the buyers that I've dealt with, they always kind of come back at some point with. What else have you got for me? You know, what, what's new? What, what are you? And so, you know, uh, you know, a lot of growers, obviously, baby greens has been a big, you know, part of the expansion in controlled environment, ag leafy greens, but I mean, um, new types of lettuce, particularly the multi leaf lettuces and the salad Novas and things like that, obviously as whole house.

Uh, crops are really taking off culinary herbs, ethnic specialties. I mean, there's, it's a never ending loop. And, and so, um, there's always room for something new and, and restaurants and, and I mean, talking about the different cultures as well. Yes. I mean, I mean, think about if you're or you're among living in, you know, some little small town in Wisconsin and you are used to getting your muster greens from overseas.

They're probably not coming in to them. Oh, yeah. Yeah. COVID obviously really, you know, showed us where our supply chains are weak and our production, um, and importation. And the whole issue of importation is, is, you know, been turned. No, it'd be a big hole in a hole, a big chance, I should say for people to go after markets that they haven't been thinking about.

I guess that's where I was going with. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, again, you know, the opportunities in CEA to really drill down localized production and localized distribution. I mean, this year, obviously I've just been magnified, tremendously controlled environment. I have one of the things that I'm a little concerned about.

Um, although it presents some opportunities, one of the best things I think happening to this industry is a lot of the investment and advancement in a lot of these large scale. CA facilities, but at the same time, it's also one of the big challenges because. CEA really offers us a great tool to enhance small-scale localized agriculture and really that's what we want to see.

We want to see small-scale local agriculture everywhere, you know, from resiliency to economic benefit, to nutrition, to food acts. As all of those things are tremendously beneficial to, uh, are benefited by. Localized production. Um, so while a lot of the growth in the industry, you know, it was more larger scale regional facilities, which in some ways is really great in terms of.

Overall food production, uh, investment consumer understanding of the industry. You know, people are, are becoming much more aware of CA but I really think that as we start looking toward the next 5, 10, 15 years, you know, enhancing that, that localized production model, that localized distribution model is just going to become much more important and everything that's happened over the past 15 or 16 months.

You know, underscored that, you know, a very big way. Yeah. But then the, the benefits side on that is, I mean, I know, I know a lot you're doing, you're experiencing the same thing, but I'm talking to, you know, seven or eight different countries right now that are just so interested in this. And they got huge projects that I can't really talk about.

Um, so that's the most exciting part. Oh, for sure. Yeah, because I mean, these it's, it's kind of funny. One of the things that I've seen, um, I mean, I I've really, for a little over 20 years now been traveling internationally a lot. Um, and you know, the, the problems that people have related to food are so universal.

Um, both from a production standpoint, as well as an access standpoint, um, and CA just has done so much to enhance level. I mean, you know, larger scale, urban farming projects here in the us or, or in, you know, more advanced countries. All the way down to very small scale, very low tech solutions, you know, in much more rural areas are much poorer countries and, and again, the problems are universal and the solution, while there are different levels of it in different technologies being used, the solution in terms of production and distribution is still, it's still pretty, pretty much the same anywhere you go.

So it's really cool to see how people are solving. A lot of these food related issues in very similar ways, regardless of where they're at, where they are or what level of technology it is because in certain locations in the world, I mean, they're dealing with population overload. Yeah. So they, their foods is very big, is being scarced, you know?

Yeah. And ironically, so many of the places where a population is growing rapidly, the most rapidly. He's usually a fairly inhospitable place for growing food. So it's a, it's a real paradox in a, in a real, a real challenge that, that, that CA you know, brings, you know, brings some great stuff to the test.

Yeah. And you know, you're talking about the different levels. Um, you know, I, I would like to get into this a little bit more, um, and just kind of give everybody a big understanding on, on how easy this can really be. Well, I guess from a grower you're a really, really good grower. It really doesn't matter what type of system you're growing on, what pump you're using.

Um, you know, I can manually feed my plants and not have to worry about automatic feeding and probably get a better outcome by feeding them because I'm spending time with them. Like you always say, John Joe, you know, spending time is very, very important, you know, and I kind of leave that out of, sometimes of me talking about what I do and it does throw people off because if I don't use, I spend time with them, then they think it's okay.

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And again, looking at the scale, looking at the regions, it all kind of comes back to really three things. And that actually just kind of dovetails in with, um, some of the questions that we got today. And one of the questions, um, sent in by this is by Sandy. Um, and, and the question seems, you know, very, very general, but actually it, it highlights some real questions that w that I'm asked every day.

And, uh, Sandy's question is. Which hydroponic system really is the best. And, and obviously we we've talked about it and we've had a lot of great guests on it, you know, there's no such thing. Um, the system that is the best is the one that meets your specific animals. And I know that sounds kind of ridiculously general.

So, so basically your best system is the one that you think is the best. Then war the war that works the best for you. What I like to do. Because I always liked to use that analogy of the three legged stool. So if you have a stool with three legs on it, if you weak in or pull out any one of those legs, the whole stool goes down.

So they need to all work together in concert. So there's really three things that I think of with a hydroponic system. Cause people say, well, is it, is it high tech? Is it automated? Is it NFT? Is it deep water culture? Is it, you know, this, that and the other thing. And they always kind of look at the technology.

And I think that's a big mistake. So, so what we have to look at with a hydroponic system or a controlled environment access to is three things. So one it's, it's the productivity and the crop quality that you can produce. So basically what that system will allow you to produce and then also the efficiency.

So again, to your point, I mean, you can water these plants by hand, but if that's not fitting into your model, If you can't be there all the time, if it's just not effective for you. So the efficiency for whatever your end goal is. So this could be highly automated. This could be very simple and manual doesn't matter.

It's what efficiency works best for you. And then lastly is the economic recovery. Sure. So, uh, how much money again? All the time. Growing systems, all the great technology we have all. Our tools. And so what economic return that system brings to you is, is what makes the most sense for you? I like to think of it this way.

Um, you know, I've got a friend he's a carpenter, so, so, okay. So let's, let's look at that in the, in the context of the tools that a carpenter uses. So carpenter needs a hammer, so, okay. First question is, well, what's the main task. So this friend of mine is a, is a, a framer. So he basically builds and frames houses.

So a basic framing hammer is one of the most common tools. So you can look at depending on his situation. I mean, you can look at a $2,000 pneumatic nail hammer. Um, you know, that, that basically you, you connect to a, um, uh, compressed air system or a air compressor. And you can do a lot of work, but it's an expensive tool, requires a lot of skill and requires a lot of extra equipment.

So if you're a small scale, a carpenter or you're working in remote projects, that that expense of hammer doesn't make sense. And doesn't give you a good economic return. Conversely, if you go to Walmart and buy a $4 cheap hammer and it breaks your first day, that's not an effective tool either. So, you know, in, in, in their case, You know, like a, a good 40, $50 framing hammer, that's really effective.

That's fairly low cost, but does the job is the best choice for his application. And so using that model in controlled environment, ag you know, looking at a system, uh, that system needs to make you money. And if you're in a place like Haiti where, um, you know, electrical costs are crazy and the electrical grid is extremely.

Um, unstable and you have cheap labor, um, a highly automated system that requires consistent power doesn't make sense at all. And, and, you know, in a, in an economically depressed area where produce prices may not be, um, really great high level of sophistication or technology does not provide those economic returns.

Conversely, if you're producing a large scale, Um, do you have your larger scale food production facility, you know, in a fairly urban area or that's that's, uh, servicing large markets, you know, very low tech system also does not provide the right economic return. So, so when we look at a system, you have to look at what you're doing.

What's your end crop or end goal is where you are, what infrastructure you've got. So again, you, you have to look at the three things that a system has to provide is that is the right productivity and crop quality. So you can't use a system. That's not giving you the right quality for your market. Um, a system that provides the correct efficiencies.

And again, that there's no right answer. There. It's all a matter of what works the best. And then the overall economic return or the return on it. Um, I talked to growers all the time who look at highly automated systems and in some cases that works very well for them. In other cases, other growers have a really hard time making that ROI back.

Um, you know, all the time, you know, we see, especially online with CRM. You know, promoting a much, a low, a more low tech, simple option. Um, and then other people are arguing that a highly automated system makes much more sense than, you know, you they're both right. And they're both wrong. So, and it works the same way with probes too.

Right? Getting your, um, your meters and stuff. You there's a such thing as called scientist. Meters, and that's kind of the brand that you want to get. You don't have to get this expensive scientific meter. You just kind of get the one that's kind of equivalent, you know, lower end one and you'll do you'll, you'll be fine.

But if you're getting those cheap, you know, $2 handheld pH meter, you know, that's what, you know, that, you know, the digital one, I don't think that one's going to work is just as well as. The a hundred dollar one from blue lab or something. Yeah. I mean, I've seen growers on a certain scale use the really cheap, low tech ones.

And that makes sense for them. But, you know, conversely, uh, I've seen the, you know, the $4,000 lab quality ones also provide good results. Does that really make the most sense for, you know, this particular project or that particular project and yeah. You know, a blue lab or a hat. That's a commercial grade that you know, is in the a hundred dash $300 range probably makes the most sense in most commercial applications here in north America, but then again, not always in everywhere.

So again, looking at that particular, you know, your particular application or a specific. Um, project or a specific goal, you know, really needs to drive the tools. And that's actually a lot, um, you know, we talked, we did a show about consulting. We talked about, you know, hiring an expert and that's actually something where, um, if you're new to the industry, having.

Uh, uh, a person, a consultant, or a guy, uh, some guidance that you know, is from an experienced person. They can really help you navigate this and save a lot of money and, and save a lot of time with, with proper setup is, um, you know, going back and really dialing in what technology or what technological tools.

Make the most sense. And, um, I wish there was a right single, single right answer. I'd write the book and have it. Here's the system. And I got a story to kind of just help people think about it. Right. Um, if you have an, uh, a masturbate. Right. And you purchase him an easy bake oven, I guess I'm showing my age here, Joe.

Um, and, and for use they'll know what an easy bake oven is. It's, it's, it's an oven with a light bulb in it that you can make bread. Uh, very cheap plastic made. I mean, it's just, I think Barbie or somebody, that's the one that really out. Our, our younger listeners, uh, please go ahead and Google easy bake oven because, and so, so like I said, so you get this master baker, you hand them the easy bake oven.

You're like, all right, I want you to cook me some sourdough. Um, you know, and we know most of what the sour dough is, is the fermentation of it. So he knows how to do that part. Well, and he'll be dude at first, but baking the bread in there. I can almost like put anything on it. You would not be able to tell that he used a $25, easy bake oven to cook.

Cause they knew the process. They knew how to make it. They knew how to den T to operate that level of technology. Yeah. That could be someone operating a, you know, a $5,000 proofer on a $10,000 oven, but then going back, you know, going to eBay and spending $20 on an easy bake oven and making the same thing, um, take him a lot more time.

Making it wise and then just their, their, their practices, maybe their recipe, but definitely the process. And again, it's about using the tools, right? Yeah. That's the same thing as farming. Right? Um, you, you can, you can hand me or you, you know, this little homemade, you know, system that's, you know, like say for instance, an arrow garden, right.

That's kind of the systems that I use on my kitchen counters. Yes. Everybody's like arrow gardens that things don't work. I've been growing strawberries on my kitchen counter for 18 months, you know? Yes. I spend a lot of time. Yes, yes. I, you know, focus on them, but they mandate figured out how to manage in that environment and, and they're doing it.

If you were going to be growing strawberries commercially, you would not use that type of setup. But if you're growing for your particular application, it's a perfect fit. And the only thing that I would use for my setup to grow strawberry. Is the genetics, Joe, because these genes are ready, been living in doors for 18 months and they know how to survive indoors.

Yeah. So maybe we took the gene. You know, started tissue cloning, the strawberries that I have indoors to propagate them in a hydroponic setting out those in greenhouses, we would probably have a stronger, you know, chance, but the only thing about strawberries and you know, this is they meet their Harding period of cold period.

Right. They need a certain amount of hours in the cold. If you can figure that out, then you can go strawberries all year round. But I don't know how to do the cold part. Like, I, I can't get my strawberries to flower because I can't put them in the cold period. Yeah. And that's one of the big, uh, you know, I get a lot of questions about strawberry production, blueberry, raspberry.

Um, well, if you can grow a lettuce and, and we've talked about this and, and, and we have, we have some great guests coming up on future episodes that are going to start diving in deeper, too. Um, more non traditional crops, you know, a lot of different crops. We tend to talk about controlled environment ag and we're talking about tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers, leafy greens.

There you go. Um, there's a lot more to it. And as the industry evolves as markets and tastes evolve, there's going to be a lot of opportunities for really good. Deepen the genetics. Yeah. The genetics are a big part of that. Um, and the, a lot of the advancement in this industry is going to be related to genetics and Dan Ovadia from Florida, Jan.

I mean, he's one of the best in the world. Um, and he's got a lot to say about that and we're going to have him back at some point. And, and so when you start looking at all the different crops that we can grow, every crop has certain, you know, potentials and advantages, but also limitations and yeah. The a lot of the fruiting crops where you're not producing continually.

So if you set up, let's say an NFT system to grow a lettuce, you are, are arranging your system and your seeding. So you're harvesting every week. Cause you're, you're moving plants in it. When you're looking at a crop and tomatoes, even, which is a much longer or fruiting crops like that, you know, a lot, you have the early vegetative growth and then you're harvesting the fruit for a fairly long period of time.

But people sometimes tend to think, well, that means you're just harvesting tomatoes perpetually. And of course that's not the case. So as strawberries or blackberries and raspberries or blueberries, yeah. You have a dormancy period. You have a productivity, your vegetative, and you have a, um, you know, dormancy that you can.

You know, I don't foresee in our lives. You know, genetics changing that at all. So, so really you have to take that into account in terms of the productivity and the economics. So you're not considered, you know, continually harvesting blueberries in the greenhouse, right? Oh, because blueberries have to go into they're hurting, they're hurting period too, right?

Yeah. And they need time. They need a certain investment. They need a lot of different things. And so, you know, is someone going to come up with a great system where they're, you know, rotating, uh, plants in and out, and you have proper storage facilities to, you know, to mimic that winter environment or that dormancy period, you know?

Absolutely. I'm not me. I'm very competent. I mean, you know, right now there are growers, particularly in Europe that are growing, um, uh, um, That way, you know, their money, the bulb industry has been doing that for a very long time. Uh, you know, manipulating the environment, not only for growing, but also for things like dormancy.

And, and so I perceive that, you know, in this country or in this hemisphere, um, and in food production, I say, you know, the next decade or so I see, I see a lot of work being done there, so yeah. Can you, uh, can you put plants into hardening in a greenhouse. Four. I'm sorry. So, okay. And the wintertime comes, can I make a winter for my, like, it'd be hard to hide your pontifically put something into winter time.

Yeah. I mean, because basically you have like with strawberries, for example, um, you know, even after harvest your plants are still growing vegetatively, they're, they're producing runners, they're producing, um, they're putting energy into the, the crown. Um, so. You know, as far as a dormancy period or a winter period, if you will.

I mean, generally speaking, you know, water and nutrients are shut down, the plant shuts down. So that's actually what we've done. And I know other growers have done is, you know, you pull them out, you cut back the foliage, you dehydrator and you, you stop, uh, irrigation. Um, you take them out and you put them in a, in a cooler, um, oh, like the way they sell the way they sell them to you.

Like if you buy them online and they send them to you. Yep. And so, but they need to be, you know, it, it changes with different cultivars and different varieties of different crops, but I mean, you, you may have to have a temperature, you know, below 30 degrees. For a period of six weeks, 12 weeks, 18 weeks.

What have you? So it, again, it depends on the crop species, but certainly for the productivity of that plant, they have to follow that cycle. Um, you know, because you're producing a fruit and Groppe, or even when you're producing a flower in crop, um, it's very different than say leafy greens because li leafy greens, you're only growing a plant.

You're not, when you're growing a head of lettuce in a hydroponic system, you're not growing that lettuce through its entirety. Production cycle because you want to harvest it long before it starts to reproduce or bolt and then produce seeds. So, so we're only using this little window. Um, and so with, uh, a fruiting crop, like strawberries, you have to look at the different stages of its growth and, and you're involved in more of them.

So that's, that's one of the challenges. Now there's a lot of great innovation going on right now. And a lot of strawberry producers are really cracking that code and doing it really. But unfortunately, it's, it's more, much more complex than simply planting your strawberry plants in the system and then just waiting there, leaving them there.

So you're all, you're constantly putting them in and removing them for their period of hardening. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure on your, your table, even though you're not right now physically providing a, a winter season. Yeah, I'm sure you noticed changes in the pro uh, in the production from vegetative to fruiting and what have you.

Yes. Yeah. And I mean, and if you think about it with trees, right? A lot of people think, you know, that the tree dies back and does nothing and then comes back and grow. No. When the trees in dormant, that's the time wondered are crawling all the roots to support. What's going to bud next year. Now, did I get that wrong?

Well, the, I mean, it depends, and it depends on the type of training. Depends on the region. Of course. Um, because some trees, you know, here in new England, a great example would be the maple tree. Um, because, because people will harvest, um, the SAP and make maple syrup from a tree. And that actually is part of the process.

So maple tree, all season long, the leaves are, are, um, you know, uh, engaging your photo set that says, and the plant is storing sugars. And the basically when the plant, when the leaves die in the flaw, the plan goes, you know, completely. Um, there is a lot of root growth, especially in the, in the fall time. Um, so, so you are right there, but then when the plant and say new England train goes dormant, the ground freezes, everything halts.

And then in the spring, when we started hitting what we would traditionally knows maple sugar season, where the daytime temperatures go above freezing. And then at night, when temperatures go back below freezing, that starts to initiate the movement of the SAP of the sugar. Throughout the plant throughout the tree.

And now that's when, when people harvest because, um, and that's why you can only harvest SAP from a maple tree for a very short window of time. Once the daytime temperatures come higher and the nighttime temperatures come up above freezing. Then the plant, you know, this starts producing the leaves and the leaves of course were formed of the year before.

So now those leads are coming out and now the plant is starting to go back into production mode. If you will, it's producing the. So describe rays are similar in that way that they have very specific cycles that they need to go through. So when you're looking at a controlled environment ag system, or, uh, from producing these commercials, you have to really look long and hard at those.

Okay then, does that make economic sense or if not, how do we make it work? So again, then right now the professionals are using Dutch buckets on and they're raising the Dutch buckets above, like by the waist or something. Right. So they're easier to. We have, we have growers that are using Dutch buckets and other containment systems.

We have growers using, uh, gutters, um, you know, like on a slab, very similar to the, uh, uh, tomato and cucumber systems. Um, a lot of the innovative systems are on pulley systems. So basically, um, certain plants are up higher than in certain plants are lower, so people can kind of move around and work within the space.

So again, we're balancing a system based on its ability to produce, but then also the efficient. So, so that's actually a great, uh, you know, to the earlier question about the three-legged stool that makes up the components of the system. So you have to look at the productivity, so we know which system will allow you to produce those high quality strawberries, you know, manage the environment properly.

Um, so, you know, not overcrowding, but also using that space efficiently, being able to get in there and work. Now we're looking at efficiencies again, and then at the end of the day is the economic return. So can you make a system that provides you that productivity and that efficiency and that, you know, provides a return on your investment that you're actually making money because God forbid, that's what we're doing here.

We're farming and we're growing plants to make money. And so understanding what the. What the plants need is, is just a very big part of that. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think another thing about hydroponics is everybody thinks that it's a different plant or it's a different, everything's different about it.

They don't understand it's the same thing that they're doing traditionally, but this way we're using technology, water, and other things to help. With apologies to my, my colleagues who have to listen to me at, at our M hydro seminars. I always like to quote sir, Francis bacon, who somewhere around 16, 70 said, um, nature to be commanded must be obeyed.

And it's it's again, I I've said this before. It's one of my favorite expressions related to control the environment because we're not commanding nature per se. And I don't want to, to make it sound now. But we are trying to manage a living process, a biological process, a number of them actually. And if we want that certain result, we want that certain output.

We have to obey the laws of horticulture of nature. And that's where a lot of the systems, a lot of the indoor systems, the vertical systems, the container systems really fall short is they're. They're trying to make a system that provides you some certain benefit or looks cool or. Is, you know, in theory, um, uh, you know, engineered to do this, that, and the other thing without really going back and understanding what the, what the crop needs are first and that productivity really, you know, uh, is, uh, is a critical one.

One of my secrets is Joe. I find who's the hierarchy inside all the plants. And I only speak with that hierarchy and they tell me what to do. I don't listen to the other plants. I only listened to the one that has the higher. They know what to do. Like, like yesterday I was in my camp and one of the decisions was made that I need to take out a plant.

I mean, this plant is, is, is, is, is really big. I probably been growing it for, you know, I don't know how many months, um, and. You know, one of the bigger cucumbers was like this cucumber plants got to go and I just did it without anything. I just took it out, put it away and it, and it was, it did, it was the only one that had some sort of sickness that I can never, ever get it out of.

And it would, it's affecting one other one. And then that's when I that's, when it just came to me. All right, this one's got to go when we talk about things like, um, IPM integrated pest management. Um, that's a, that's a big one because it's an emotional thing. And I've done this a million times as a commercial grower.

So let's say you go into your greenhouse, see your point about removing a plant. You know, you have a plant that either is Ben has been productive or that you think there has a lot of pretension. Or it's been grilling a long time and it's really hard sometimes to make that decision, to just take it out and remove it, even though intellectually, you might know it's the best thing.

Um, we have this all the time, um, with growers, you know, they, they, they noticed some aphids in their lettuce system, for example. And so they'll remove that head, but you know, I'll say. You need to go all around one now, very aggressively inspect all the plants anywhere in that vicinity. Um, and I always have a rule that if there's an infestation, We keep removing plants until we find no more infestation and then remove the next layer of plants.

Um, which is a really hard thing to do because you're like, well, this plant looks okay. I don't want, it's like, you have to be much more calculated about it and you have to be. Um, able to remove that emotional component and say, no, no, this makes more sense to do that. But I acknowledge that that's always been difficult for me and for most growers.

And so, um, you know, making that decision on removing a plant that may still be productive or may still be more healthy than you give it credit for, or what have you. And, and, uh, That always, uh, fails you, that that approach always, um, causes more trouble. So yeah, so you have to be calculated sometimes and, and, and, and do that.

But when you're connected to your plants a lot, it's. Well, I mean, that's, I don't have pets, Joe. So, I mean, I wish I could have a dog, but I wouldn't be a bad dog owner because I I'm always traveling. I'm always on the goal. I'm always on the phone. I just wouldn't be a good dog. Owner. Plants is a little different plants can still be connected with you no matter where you go.

And, and this is something that I, I I've, I've been knowing for a while and I just don't know how to connect back to them when I'm gone. It's like, there's a one-way connection. They connect to me. But I can't connect back to them. And twice. Uh, yeah, well, you know, that's something we've, we've talked about.

I mean, all the awesome guests we've had on this podcast, they all have that same passion and that connection to growing and, and, you know, um, you know, for, for people who are listening. Um, we, we record this on zoom and as soon as we're done with the show, you know, Nick and I will end up talking for God, knows how long afterwards.

And, and usually our guests stay on and, and we, we laugh about, you know, what plant geeks we all are. And that's actually some where some of the more interesting discussions can happen. But the bottom line is that the people in this industry that do well, the people in this industry who are really making great things happen, are all people connected to the plants and who, you know, that is their passion.

So, so that's, that's something to also consider when you're looking. Controlled environment agriculture. So that passion, that connection, that desire to, to be involved with the horticultural aspect of the farming aspect of the production, not just the technology aspect, cause it's not an entity instance for the same thing with ornamentals too.

If you're out there and all you grow as ornamentals, you are still having this special relationship with these plants. Oh, of course. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And that, that really, that just enables you that connection, that attentiveness that we, we talked about before, um, once you've been a grower, even for a fairly short period of time, you can walk into the greenhouse or into your grow room and you know, why smell or have a vibe, something may.

You know, every everyone that I've ever talked to that has been growing more than six or eight months has some story about, I walked in the greenhouse and I knew something was wrong. You know, maybe it was a sound they heard or some smell in the air. Um, but we've all had that experience. And it's because you become attune, you know, the, the notion of using, uh, technological tools, um, diagnostic tools, um, you know, the, the, you know, A lot of the technology right now, as it relates to, um, uh, different, um, thermal cameras and things like that to monitor crops, those are all amazing tools and they're really awesome, but they never will replace or never should replace.

Your connection as a grower or even as a person. Um, and this, I was talking about the growers, but I don't necessarily just mean, you know, the, the head grow who's operating the facility. This is, you know, everyone that works in the greenhouse from everyone who just packs the lettuce to, you know, people who are pruning tomatoes, that connection, and that being involved in your crop, um, some of the best growers.

You know, started out as you know, you know, working at a tomato facility D leaving tomatoes, you know, pruning tomatoes. I started off as a hydroponic store. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it always comes back to the people who took ownership of that and really put themselves in there where they connected with the plants.

That is where, um, you know, those are the people that become the high level growers and the people that really do the amazing innovation that we see in them. You know, talking about hydroponic stores. Um, I just got back from long island, um, and I was out there. And one thing that I like to do when I go to any other city or state or anywhere is I want to find their local hydroponic store and I want to go in there and, you know, I just want to like pick around.

I want to see what they're selling. I want to see what they're telling me that works. Right. Because everybody that's out there. If, if you ask a hydroponic owner, what works. He's going to tell you everything works cause he owns us. Yeah. So I'm just letting you know, just because your, your, your, your hydroponic owner suggested these things for you.

He's still running a business. I'm not trying to rack down or put down any of the hydroponic owners, but I'm just trying to say to truth. Yeah. He owns a store. He's selling equipment. Everything's gonna work in his store. So you might end up with like a few things in your recipes or a few things at your house that you could do without, like Joel was saying, you can do it out it, but.

You know, the, the, the store owner wants to make business. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a really valid point. I mean, in all honesty, that was actually my biggest, um, I was working in the industry, I'd say actually back in 2015 or 2014, technically when, when I met you, um, I was a consultant and, you know, Focusing on being a grower, a commercial grower and a consultant.

And I had no desire ever to go and work for a company and join a company. And so the, the idea of coming and joining M hydro, um, wasn't something that was on my radar because as a, as a grower, as a person who works with growers, I'm aware of that, that companies are looking to sell and you know, this, this product or that product or this system or that system.

And one of the things that I. No. I had worked with, um, M hydro, you know, in the past and, and consultant for some of their growers. And so I was familiar with the team, but, you know, Jenny Harris took over, um, am hydro and her goal was to provide the right solution for grower, regardless of what that technology is, regardless of it's a system that we manufacturer or not.

Um, the idea was. You take whatever you can to make that grower successful. And it doesn't have to be, you know, a lot of our consulting, you know, hydro does a lot of consulting and a lot of our consulting or for growers that don't even have am hydro systems. And that's the approach that I knew I wanted to pursue.

And I know that's what you do as well. You know, there is no one solution. There is no one system. There is no one anything in this business, but rather technology, um, that we use as certain tools to get us somewhere. So that's, that's always something that's always driven, you know, the, the best people in the industry, um, to, to look, to find what is going to work best here in this situation or that situation.

And, and I think again, I think that that's, that's proven to be, you know, the right formula and it's always, you know, what I think is, you know, going to go to move our industry. That's good. That's good. Yeah. It's all about moving forward together. Right. Um, and w w I mean, this is what this podcast was, was birth from, right?

That we, we wanted to combat the industry and move forward as a whole and girl together, as opposed to where the industry was going. It was, everybody was individual. Everybody had the secret recipe, had the secret lights. Everybody had the secret, everything secret. I can't talk about it, but every time I go read my books, my books tell me.

What they said that was a secrets in the book. So I I'm like, whoa, wait a minute. I thought it was a secret. Why am I reading it in this book that was published in 1924? Not only do you have the secrets, but then you have the systems. Our system is, is the right system. And you know, the other system, I've seen companies that, you know, both souls.

Uh, DWC raft systems and DWC water culture by the way, RAF system. So at each one of those companies told, uh, potential clients that their system was the right system and that other company's system was not effective. And yet the systems were almost identical. And I see that in NFT as well. I've seen that in all, you know, companies get caught up in that and, and, and whatnot.

So, so yeah, so every, every. Application is, is gotta be looked at and unique. Speaking of that, though, we're gonna be talking with a lot of, uh, growers and Nick and I are involved in a panel at the indoor ag con, which is coming up this fall. And so. A lot of, of great opportunities are coming for all of you.

Now, now that things are opening up, um, you know, am hydro, as I said earlier, we had our first, um, in-person seminar last week, which was once the next one. So we've got one coming up in October now. Uh, and it's almost sold out. So if anybody's interested, please go check out the M hydro website, um, coming up.

Um, it is October 24th. Fifth, which is a Thursday and Friday up in Eureka, California. As I said earlier, we're going to be, um, uh, doing, uh, In classroom instruction, if you will talking about everything from basic horticulture to business, um, to then getting in the greenhouse and you work in the greenhouse, you are seeding, transplanting, harvesting, um, packaging, understanding food, safety we're, um, people are doing IPM.

People are actually hanging. Incarcerate Formosa in the tomato plants. Um, observing how, um, swore ski mites emerged from the sachets and go out into the seedlings to, um, to go after thrips for example. So you really get into the, to the nitty gritty nitty gritty of. Of what happens in the greenhouse and people understand better too, not only the systems and the, the biological systems as well as the physical systems, but then, you know, what's what the reality is.

You know what it's like to work in a greenhouse so people can. They, they spend a few hours, you know, working in the greenhouse and they're like, yeah, this is not really for me. Um, and other people like, oh my God, I love this. So, so again, this is a business, but it's a profession. It's a calling. It's a, it's a.

It's it's a way of life. And, and I I've, I have found such a diverse group of people that really connect to, I love it, but it is, it is something that's not for everybody. And so, so just thinking about this, go to that, go to the sun, Mar I mean, if you're just thinking about it, or are you been thinking about it or you might have already done a little research?

I mean, if you're not going to be a grower still. Good knowledge to learn for sure. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So I was, I was taking a look, so we've got a couple of cool of events coming up. Um, obviously, you know, in about a week and a half it's cultivated and, and you know, everybody in the horticultural industry loves cultivates coming up in Columbus, Ohio.

That's a music, July 10th and the 13th. And I mean, that is a general horticultural. Um, and probably the biggest here in north America, at least in the states. You know, everyone from foliage, producers, food producers is obviously a, a cannabis, um, segment. That is one of the best places to go learn about new technologies, meet people and connect with people, um, grow and get to go home with a bunch of beautiful plants if you stick around long enough.

Yeah. I didn't think of that. You definitely go home with a lot of brochures and samples and things like that. Um, I always loved going to the conferences and, you know, they always give you a big canvas bag or a strong handled bag that you ended up stretching your arm up by the end of the day. Carrying around all this.

Uh, so at the end of the show, none of the, none of the vendors are taking their stuff back. So all the plants that they're showing off, all the trees that they're showing off, they just leave them there for people to go. That's cool. I didn't think of that, but if you're in the Ohio area, that's a really good option.

Oh, you could score so much landscaping stuff if you go there. Yeah. Wow. So now that we're, now that we're kind of opening up the country again and everybody's getting out, that is kind of the first big industry war. Um, event that's coming up and, uh, and that's going to be really cool. Uh, unfortunately I've got a scheduling conflict, so I'm not going to be there, but most people that I know that I'm working with are going to be there.

Um, a lot of great companies, none of our guests, uh, I know Julie Gilbert from G and V greenhouse, uh, solutions will be. Uh, I'm sure Jake will be there. Um, uh, university of Arizona may have a presence there. Lots of, lots of great people. Lots of great companies. Yeah. I will be there with Dave. I've gone with one of my partners day.

That's great. Cool. And then we've got green tech coming up in September, up in Amsterdam at the rise center. That's one that I, I love. Um, I mean, if you are interested in high level controlled environment, agriculture, that's, that's one of the gray ones to go to. It's a. It's huge. They are, the, the rice center is, is, it would feels like about 10 million acres.

And you spent half the day walking around in circles. Wondering if you've been at that spot before, but it's, uh, it's, it's a great event. Um, that was going to be, I think, live, but I think they're also having a big online component as well, but, but certainly if you can, if you can manage the trip it's it's it's well-worth.

Um, and then, and then of course, uh, Tober, October 4th and fifth, October is a big month, uh, October 4th and fifth is the indoor ag con in Orlando. And we definitely recommend everybody here in the states that can get down there to that, to go. Um, as I had mentioned earlier, Nick and I are going to be on a panel with Dr.

VJ repack, uh, from a waste we're going to be talking about, um, sealing production growing meetings. Um, and the importance of that, and that's a real big topic. We're going to have VJ on the show, right? Yeah. VJ is coming up. Um, he may be coming up next week, next week, I think. Yeah. Next week's show. Very cool.

V and that's, that's why I definitely recommend everyone. Listen to VJ is, is great. He's super knowledgeable. Um, uh, and as I've said, many, many, many times, yeah. You cannot have good quality crops without having good quality seedlings. It just doesn't happen. So, so being able to, to really manage your propagation, your ceiling production is so critical.

So we're going to be talking about that in great depth. Of course, at indoor ag con. Um, lots of great vendors, lots of great, cool, uh, technologies, Nick and I are going to be talking to other people we're gonna have, we're gonna have many guests on coming up into the fall on our podcast who will be at head indoor ag con.

If anybody from NASA is going there, I got to reach out to see if anybody from mass OB showing up since it's our Orlando. I, yeah, I was going to say, I would imagine. So, um, yeah, that'd be great to see Gary and, and some of the other great folks over it now. Um, so yeah, so, so lots of cool stuff there. Um, definitely that's that for me here in the states is definitely, you know, one of the better, um, uh, conferences to go to.

Um, as I said, one thing I did want to mention about, I don't know if you know about it, but there's a, there's a, there's a space Chile, uh, challenge, um, that Jacob is handling from NASA and he's basically sends everybody, sees. Uh, to grow chili peppers, and he's trying to collect all the data's possible so they can help with their space missions would grow in Chili's in space.

Wow. Okay. Um, that that's something we should, uh, get Graham dulling, uh, uh, on worldwide local salads. He's he's been doing some very cool indoor, uh, chili production. Oh wow. We should, we should definitely link the two up for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So there'll be a lot of cool stuff to see, um, down there. Um, and as I had mentioned, we've got the animal hydro seminar coming up in October at the end of October 24th to 25th.

If you are at all interested, please check out our website. There's a lot of cool stuff. And then at the end of October, on the 28th through the 30th is the PMs. Um, produce marketing association convention in new Orleans. And if you are at all interested in the marketing end, understanding what the grocery industry is doing, this is, this is one of the big, kind of from a grower standpoint, the grower is sometimes overlooked.

This is to know what's going on in the industry. What products are hot, what, uh, packaging equipment is available. What markets are doing. There's representatives from every major grocery chain there, food distribution, cooling handling food safety, you name it. Uh, PMs is also notoriously good for food samples everywhere.

You can walk through the whole event center and eat yourself sick. So it's, uh, it's a coffee too, right? Coffee, tea, everything, anything you could possibly ask? But really it from an industry standpoint to really understand what's going on in the, in the grocery industry and the food industry, it is, it is just worth its weight in gold.

So again, you know, there's, there's some events coming. We all kind of got out of the loop of going to these events with last year, but, uh, there's a lot of really cool stuff available this year. So I'm hoping to see a lot of people, uh, at some of these events. Any, any, uh, any other updates you got going on on your end?

Nothing too interesting. We do have some more, um, you know, really great guests coming up in the near future. Um, and we'll be revisiting some of the concepts talked about I've had a lot of. Great input and comments from people about, you know, someone that said, you know, Dan Ovadia said something that really resonated with me, or, um, you know, Jen framer from Gotham, I was really inspired by, you know, how she got into the business, or I really want to know more about what Jean jockey Melean maraca Sierra have, you know, at the university of Arizona at the CAC.

So framework's episode was. Yeah. Oh yeah. So every one of our guests, you know, really brought some very cool stuff. So, you know, we'll definitely have future episodes. We'll be talking kind of revisiting some of the highlights and some of the things that they, uh, um, came from, because, I mean, if you look back at our guests, I mean, we no rush on from a Gotham greens.

I would like to more and more about the business. Oh, gangrene Raj. Yeah. Oh for sure. Um, and again, there's so many great people in this industry that come from so many different areas of directions. We have great producers. We have technology providers, people in the seed and genetics, uh, industry, people who understand environmental control to such amazing levels.

I mean, look at talking about, uh, talking with rich. Well, Brett, uh, from Craver, just understanding, you know, some various simple concepts that get overlooked and, and, and, um, you know, th that really go to your environmental management that are just so critically important, and that's a perspective that so many people just don't have.

And so I've done a lot of great response from that kind of stuff as well. So we're really turning the roof up, open the roof. Yeah, it's something that gets more nature into your, uh, into your growing. Um, again, to, to going back to nature, to be commanded must be obeyed. So, um, we're getting some pretty good stuff from nature into our.

Production. So let's, let's focus on what the plants are needing and how we can best provide that. So, uh, so definitely we look forward to more of your input. Uh, please keep sending us your questions. I'm joe@amhydro.com and Nick is Nick and Nick greens that please send in your suggestions of guests. Uh, we, we do get a bunch of suggestions, so I'm on a high level from a lot of them.

People's PRS. Um, so please keep sending those Zen that helps us determine on who's going to be on the show. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, uh, so we'll keep you posted, um, uh, about industry events, things that are going on and things that we're seeing, obviously it was a lot of cool stuff going on and we'll definitely be talking about topics that, uh, hopefully you are all interested in.

So we appreciate your time today. Thanks so much for joining us. And, uh, we look forward to talking to you again soon. Thanks. Have a great day.