034: Vijay Rapaka - Oasis Company

In this episode Joe and Nick interview Vijay Rapaka, experienced technical professional, passionate and motivated to deliver commercial value through research and innovation. Skilled in Research and New Product Development, Strategic Planning, and Research Management. Successfully developed and launched several ground breaking technologies.

More about Vijay Rapaka:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vijay-rapaka-6066367/

More about Joe Swartz:
Website: https://amhydro.com/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/HydroConsultant

More about Nick Greens:
Website: https://www.nickgreens.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/InfoGreens

Transcript

Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of the poly greens podcast. I'm Joe Swartz from am, hydro, along with Nick greens and the Nick greens grow team. We've talked a lot about sealing production propagation. Um, you've heard as beating the drum. You've seen us on social media talking about the critical importance of often overlooked seedling production and plant propagation.

And you know, you've heard us say many times that you can never have good quality crops without good quality seedlings. While we've talked about it a lot. Um, you know, we've got today, someone, um, really is an expert in the field. Someone that we've known a long time and it really respect. And, uh, and they're here to talk today a little bit about, uh, what they're doing and again about the importance of, of good sealing and propagation.

So, um, Dr. VJ reply. From, uh, he's the corporate research manager at Smithers away. SIS. We've talked to the BJ many times, um, last year at indoor ag con, we'll be doing another event this year, this October, um, at indoor icon. So we're, we're thrilled and we're, we're honored to have you, so, uh, VJ, thank you very much for joining us today.

Thank you. Thank you, Joe. Appreciate it very much for having me here today. I'm really excited to talk to you and, uh, Nick and seen what you guys are doing. Um, and, uh, you know, constantly educating the customers and then the new people that are coming in and all that stuff. So I'm glad to be. Yeah, it's really amazing, you know, with everyone coming in, um, we've got so many great season to growers and people who've been in the industry a long time, but we also have this huge flow of, of new people coming into the industry, which is really great.

But, um, you know, it, it presents a challenge and an opportunity to talk about some of these fundamental concepts and the importance of them. And obviously what Smithers away says, you know, has been for a very long time, bringing to the table. Um, not only in terms of just really rock solid products, but obviously new innovation and, uh, and research really a lot of what you're doing.

So could you tell us a little bit about what, w w w H how you got to control the environment, agriculture, what brought you here and, uh, and how you came to be the, uh, research manager at Smith as a way. Uh, sure. Um, actually, if I go back and look at my background, actually originally I, uh, studied agriculture, uh, for my bachelor's and all that stuff.

And my mom, um, uh, she used to love gardening and, um, and yeah, that's what that looks like. I think I, I got some of that. And then, uh, so then started to, uh, a bit low for the plans and then, uh, got into agriculture. And then, uh, originally I'm from India and then, uh, always, uh, um, I wanted to go, um, you know, uh, explore and study and all that stuff.

So yeah. Um, eventually I got, I went to Germany to do my PhD there and, uh, got their PhD there in Germany. And, uh, mainly looking at, uh, the interactions between the root development foot of synthesis, uh, carbohydrates, ethylene, and some of the hormones and all that stuff. The CA the, the, the whole, uh, interactions that are going on and all that.

And then, uh, eventually, uh, went to Clemson university, did my post-doc there. And then after that, uh, uh, got to Smithers again at, at Clemson university. I was, uh, you know, looking at once I was getting ready to finish off my post. I was looking at where I can go. I mean, looking at the industry and looking at the academia and all the options and all that stuff.

When I was looking, um, at Clemson folks told me that, oh, you know what, there's always this company. Uh, couple of, uh, PhDs, uh, from Clemson university got hired at where there's always this company and it's that. Okay. Then that should be last on my list because you know, they hired recently couple of PhDs and why would they hire one more PhD at a pump company and all that stuff.

But literally that was, uh, I was thinking, um, and then, uh, one day I happened to meet them. Uh, one of my current colleagues. Run Walla. He gave him, uh, and, uh, talking about, uh, ethylene and all that stuff at Clemson university. Then we double up the conversations and then actually did not even know that there's was looking for a scientist, uh, for, for, uh, for, uh, you know, doing the grower research and all of that stuff.

And then I got hired in and, uh, So, yeah, I think actually early on and my, all my interest and all my background, I used to be called doctor roots because that's what I actually, again, mainly most of my focus was on adventitious root formation, rooting of cuttings, ornamental, cuttings, and all that stuff.

Uh, understanding the relations and all that stuff. And then once I got to Smithers, it started working on the substrate. Then that's, that's actually got began. My, my passionate really love. What it was, um, I have been doing, and I've been with the company for 12 years now. How I got into CA is that again, Smithers, um, um, has been, uh, producing hearty cubes since 1985.

That's when the launch of the Hardy cubes and actually, Joe, you very well said that. I think a lot of the CA uh, especially leafy greens, uh, the things that actually double up in the United States and all that stuff used Oasis as hoarding cubes at one point are the. Um, and then, so, yeah, uh, obviously with that, that got in that really peaked my interest into the controlled environment, agriculture and substrates.

And, uh, um, so we, we had, uh, a research greenhouse, uh, that was, uh, 20, 30 years ago that was built and all that stuff. But, uh, when I was hired in, uh, 2008 and a couple of years later, We built a, again, a brand new greenhouse, uh, with, uh, at that time, the state of the art, but he can never say started staring at everything changes very quickly.

Right. Um, yeah, so we have dedicated, um, uh, production, uh, greenhouse facility, propagation, uh, facility for, uh, vegetative cuttings. We have a bay for a young plant production for, uh, C a, you know, for the, for the lettuce and tomatoes and peppers. And we have a dedicated production facility as well. To, to finish off the crops of lettuce and tomatoes and all that stuff.

So yeah, with the Smithers, definitely. Um, if you look at our company, uh, there are, uh, four business under, under the company. One is still the floral foam, that's the bread and butter. That was what brought us here. It was started in 1950s global company. Um, and then we acquired a floral life in 2006, which has been new for the cut flowers and all that.

And then is it mainly the whole company was start for cut flowers or was it vegetables too? Actually, when it was started, Nick, it was started for a couple hours. It's a, the, the green brick probably when you see the, uh, floral arrangements. Right. So yeah, it was started. Early nineties. Yeah. But the, with the, but, um, as the technology emerging, people started looking again, they saw the early on, uh, the, saw the need for a engineered substrate glean in arts and all that stuff.

And then they eventually started in, uh, 1980s. And the first Hardy cubes was launched in 1985. Yeah. Um, and so, yeah, so with that, there's other, um, a big part of our business is this 10 persition international, uh, which is, uh, mainly, uh, for temperature control management. Um, and again, use, uh, the, the, the technology uses.

Standard, uh, foam, uh, to ship, uh, you know, the, the, the, right now it is in big demand with the, with the vaccines, uh, shipment and all that stuff, because you can maintain the cold chain through the sub, you know, through the supply chain and all that stuff. Um, and then the fourth one is growth. And, and, uh, the, the, the management, the company has been very, very keen on the grower part of the business, because again, uh, the thing is that a lot of the things that got developed at Smith.

Um, is based on the Moto that we need to help the growers, the growers solutions again, to create the, uh, the solution. What I did. Are you working with multiple growers throughout the United States or is it throughout the world? The world throughout the world? Yeah, we have actually, um, manufacturing facilities in 20 different countries.

Um, and it's all over the world. And, um, and yeah, so, but for grower, uh, products, again, we are, uh, manufacturing locations are strategically looking at it all over the world. We have six fiscal abuse here in the United States, Mexico. Uh, Brazil, we see a big opportunity there with the CA uh, well in Brazil, uh, we have manufacturing in Korea, uh, that actually supports the, uh, Pacific and all that stuff.

Product gets shipped to Australia, New Zealand, all that. And then we have a production facility in India and China. So these are all the six facilities. Yeah. So I'm really fortunate that. Actually not only work with a lot of the customers here in the United States, but uh, very closely work with our manufacturing facilities globally and also the customers, uh, globally as well.

So yeah, get some, uh, um, it's a lot of traveling and, and all of us learn something new from different countries and all that stuff. So that's what, uh, so yeah, going back to your question. Yes. Again, Smithers see the need for the, definitely for the CA uh, the opportunity that is there and also help with the, you know, with the, the new trends and, uh, with the, with the, the food requirements and all that stuff.

So we are heavily invested in the grower business. I here at Smothers, so constantly work on new developments, new products, bringing to them. That's something that, yeah, really. I mean, it takes me back. I mean, I, gosh, I mean, I think we started with a wasteless sorta cubes, uh, here at our home farm. I think it was back in about 1812 or so.

Um, we talked with, uh, yeah, I'd worked on a number of times with Dr. Jim Boodley, uh, the breast seemed like thousands of years ago. Um, but yeah, I mean the, the grower solution, that's actually something I'd like to touch on a little bit more as far as, you know, a waste of Smithers a waste. Is that right? Um, to grow her success because that's something, you know, we, we had, as I had mentioned, I mean, I think it was probably 88, 89.

We started using the Oasis hoarder cubes for our leafy green production, particularly. Um, had great success with it, uh, specific to the, some of the qualities, which I'm hoping you can elaborate on a little bit, as far as, um, you know, handling costs, route oxygenation, um, ease of handling. I mean, there are just so many things about the Oasis products that really worked really well for us.

You know, we have. Gone on to, uh, you know, I mean, we have done everything from cocoa and Pete based blocks to rock wall, to other types of foam, the sponge materials, um, hemp fibers, I mean, you name it and, and it, so Joe, what, the 30 years of you being in the industry? What would you say from a commercial point of view that this is the top medium out there?

So, uh, from my way of thinking, absolutely. And I'll tell you why. Um, so, so as I had mentioned, you know, we, we had started early on in our leafy green production. And have since used just about every other media man and what we look at, and I'm speaking just now as a commercial grower, um, obviously cost per unit has, has a factor, but, but that's only part of the equation.

What we always looked at was one is, is the seedling production. So what we looked at is we're looking at quality emergent. Uniformity ease of, um, irrigate, you know, being able to get nutrients in. And that's actually, I don't know. I have a story to add about a conversation I had with Leejay just a few years ago about that.

Um, ease of irrigation, oxygenation, you know, one of the big, uh, problems with a lot of growing media, um, particularly propagation blocks is either, um, uneven uniformity in the moisture and oxygen. And so you get uneven emergence. You, you can see higher incidences of certain diseases and physiological disorders.

Um, due to the fact that the medium is, um, either too, too wet doesn't hold enough oxygen or was too dry or too inconsistent, too difficult to irrigate. I mean, all of those factors roll in and then also handling. So handling is, is something that, uh, you know, being able to, to, uh, To incorporate into a standard propagation system to be able to handle for transplanting, um, medium, that doesn't fall apart too readily, medium.

That's not too stiff and difficult to work with them in all of those things. And, and to the point of the, the development that, that Smithers away since has put into growers. Um, you know, just a few years ago, of course, you know, just a few years ago, I had already been growing for 20, some odd years and almost 30 years.

And of course I knew everything there was to know. Um, so when, when VJ had contacted me about, um, some of our propagation practices and specifically. To, um, to seeding, uh, are we're receiving, for example, pelleted lettuce seed into dry away, SIS. And then we were saturating the media, draining the media off a little bit again, to help oxygenate it and have the proper moisture.

Um, and, and we always did that of course, with plain water. And I remember a VJ contacting me about, uh, using a nutrient solution and I was admittedly extremely resistant because, you know, in theory, I had back God, back to the eighties, growing tomato seedlings and priming the seed, you know, with a, with a salt solution.

So you're getting the seed to begin germination, but then it kind of halts the germination salt can inhibit germination. The idea of, you know, using, uh, nutrient solution to pre germination was counterintuitive and know to my way of thinking was not the best way to go. And, and BJ had explained to me a number of times if I remember, um, is that using just one.

Um, once you put the, the, the Oasis into your propagation system and begin irrigating with nutrient solution, it can take a significant amount of time for that nutrient solution to actually get into the, to the Oasis or orange or the propagation, uh, cubes to display some of that water. And by using a nutrient solution.

Um, getting much better germination, much better, early growth. And as, as I said, admittedly, I was very resistant because it just went against a lot of them. Then the air ratio, right. The air ratio is just spot on too, as well. Absolutely properly managed. Yeah. That's something I'd like to talk a little bit more about, but anyway, long story short, I mean here's VJ.

Knowing that they're selling me their Oasis. Um, so I'm going to be using their product regardless, but he was adamant that he was going to help me to grow better quality seedlings. And, and it was, you know, through that lesson, in that example, in his insistence that I changed my growing practices and I, you know, That's how I train growers and that's how I, um, uh, you know, help new new people in and experienced growers alike.

And I, I still, to this day, talk to a lot of experienced growers who do the same, you know, make the same mistake that I had made. And so, you know, through their research, through their efforts to, to improve grower experiences, um, you know, BJ's out there every day, you know, pushing not, not a product. A grower solution, which I really liked.

So BJ, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about, about your research, both, you know, your previous research and your current research and what you're doing to make a better product to help the growers use your products better. Um, you know, maybe to help people understand a little bit more about this constant evolution of, of, uh, what Smithers waste.

Sure. Sure. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. So, yeah, as I said, the horny cubes was originally launched in 1985 and then we came up with XL and then all the past couple of years, typically when we are, we are constantly working on and uh, you know, what's next, what's next? What can we improve in all of that?

And one of our core strengths, um, are the it's that collaboration, collaboration with partners like you, Joe, um, and Nick and, and, and a lot of the customers, we work closely with the customers and we work closely with the industry. I mean, the, the, uh, the universities as well. And actually that is one of our core, um, uh, core values are that dedication to the customer.

And actually collaboration are, are a couple of really, really important things. So we are always constantly tried to improve what's next and all that stuff. And talking about that evolution process. We just recently devil up, uh, and launched actually called it a product of Horty cubes, era max. Um, and, and typically, uh, when it comes to a development of a new product, it is a two to three year cycle.

Uh, in our case, what we do is we start always with a small block again, with the foam it's, uh, it's the Oasis form. We started with a small bra block. Then when we do the lab test, we started with 800 gram a block, and then we scale it up a little bit bigger, a little bit bigger. And when we commercially produce, we deal with 3000 kilograms of, of a material and we produce, so it's actually a constant, uh, development.

And typically we, we, uh, go through rigorous testing first to make sure is it stable? Is it actually bad? Friendly? Is it producing is better than what it is before and all of that stuff. We do a lot of internal testing and at about a year, our, uh, our, our, so into the development and about stage, we go through a stage gate process.

And at stage four, where we call as a scale-up, we produce commercially, and then we take it to the customers to see that are they seeing the similar things, what we are seeing in the greenhouse. That's how we validate, uh, actually the, the, the, the product is working and all that stuff. And that. We, we, we go through several field trials before we take that product to the market.

Um, so talking about the, actually the Hardy cubes, Aero max, uh, the idea is that actually I've been thinking about developing something more responsive to, to the environmental inputs. The growing inputs actually want this substrate to be part of the whole. System, rather than again, looking at, by itself, how can we actually integrate better into the system and then thought about actually couple of things.

One is one, is that, uh, as you touched, uh, uh, Joe, the oxygen and also the, like the name of this, uh, product, uh, suggest actually Eero max does maximum here. One of the unique things, uh, the full, uh, the characteristics are that you can never actually or water because. This is a cellular structure. It holds only certain amount of water and the rest is all drained out.

But of course, depending on your trays, your containers, you can change the amount of water and all that. But with the era max, what we were able to do is actually we are able to maximize the here in the root zone. Uh, the thing is that with air that's actually Billy that's, that's the one of the cheapest.

Growth regulator that is available to every grower at his fingertips. That's the cheapest growth regulator. He can do so much. Whether the ear, again, with a lot more air, more oxygen, you can go through dry and wet cycles. Hell the roots LD shoots, and beyond that actually can steer the crop in the direction you want.

You can, again, if you're talking about tomatoes, peppers and all that stuff, if you want to push more vegetative or generator. You want to grow more dryer? So, yeah, that's the number one thing is that actually we have. I booked 15 to 20% air porosity oxygen are the ear in the root zone, whether the Aero max that's number one, uh, number two is that this is really, really interesting is that, is that the, you know, with the, the hydroponics, with the NFD or the DWC.

You're having your, the roots are able to access the nutrients readily. Right. Uh, and actually the substrate is only a carrier to some extent early on. And one of the thinking is that. We want to actually reduce the density of the substrate, the strength of the substrate. So basically when the roots are pushing through the substrate, uh, that the, the stronger the matrix is they need to spend more energy to push the roots through.

And also the second thing is that, of course we all know about ethylene the hormone, right? It's a stress hormone. So even if you shake the plant. And starts producing ethylene. Imagine that if the roots are pushing through the matrix of the substrate, the more the resistance it gets. For example, if you take a drill bed and try to drill it through the, uh, the, the drywall and the concrete, you see the difference, right?

How much energy you need to put it in, as simple as that. So the idea was that. To reduce the strength and the density of the substrate so that the roots can readily penetrate through and then access the nutrients. That's that's the second thing we were able to bring in. Um, and then the third thing is that with the.

Height, uh, air porosity and hydrated. The idea is that we would like to create a faster refresh rate of nutrients and oxygen because already, if you, if you add nutrients and water, Um, as you actually, um, uh, or a period of then the oxygen gets depleted and actually the nutrients will go out of ratio. So the idea is that it's completely open cylinder structure, and every time you water you water, for example, for, uh, a sheet of, uh, uh, of this matrix tending just with 20 inches, two liters, you should be able to completely replenish whatever the water it is.

Beer in the root zone. So you can put fresh oxygen in there, the dissolved oxygen in there and fresh nutrients. So that's the idea behind these that the maximum refresh rate. Uh, so we talk about precision ag and precision, uh, production, all that stuff. We wanted to bring precision to the young plant production at the roots on every gun, everything you can meet her in a, whatever exactly you're looking for.

Well, that's the third thing. We, we, we did that, uh, with era max, uh, Joe and Nick, and the other important thing is that. Of course. Um, if you looked at our Hardy cubes and XL, uh, uh, again, it has been the brown color that has been the standard color for years. And, uh, the interesting thing is that with a lot of things have been changing in the industry.

Now people are moving from high pressure, sodium, indoor farming and all of that stuff. So with the, the engineered or substances, We have a unique advantage that we can change the color to any color you want. You can, you can actually create a matrix that is hot pink or our, our, our yellow are, are, are something like that.

We don't want to do yellow because of the Punka stats. Right. So, so, uh, but, but, but seriously, actually, when we were developing this product, we looked at liberally, uh, red, blue, And we wanted to study the interaction between the, uh, the, the valence of the LEDs that we have used Phillips signify, uh, led is for this whole study and all that stuff.

We were looking, what is the right substrate? That would actually have a synergistic effect in multiple ways. And after looking at these different colors, we ended up choosing this dark gray color, but after you saturated, it's going to be black, almost black in color. And what we were seeing is that, especially during, uh, the, the cloudy, the, the, our cast days, and also during the video producing.

Uh, if you measure the substrate temperature, uh, with an infant and gun with black color, you can raise the temperature by a couple of degrees. Of course, the mother nature, the earth, the soil, it's all black, the peat is black and all that stuff, right? So it's always there. That is there. But again, w this is an opportunity that we tried to see what is the engineered substrates color should be.

Uh, and what we are seeing is that actually at 10% improvement, Seedling growth, especially during winter, winter times, because under these LEDs couple of degrees, because of course, high pressure sodium, you have a lot of, uh, you know, heat light along with light, you know, heat coming in. Uh, but with this led, you don't have that.

But this black color, of course it changes as long as once, once the canopy is covered and all that stuff. Right? Because again, no, no, the, the light cannot reach the bottom of the substrate and can change. So anyway, long story short after thorough research, we identified that this is the black color, the gray color is for suitable.

Um, and that, and then lastly, what we also created is this, with this height drainage, uh, the top surface is going to stay dry. And we would be able to reduce the allergy and all that stuff again, totally eliminated of course, because nutrients rich and all that stuff. Right. So, but yeah, so those are the five things we were able to bring with this, but this is only the beginning.

We have a couple of more new Jack using this platform technology. We have a couple of new, uh, new product that are coming in with a different water-holding capacities because it's not that every site, you know, um, It's all right, because you have a tropical condition or you have a high water demanding, or maybe a growing spinach where it demands a lot, lot more water.

So we are creating actually with this new platform technology, we are creating a lower, um, uh, um, you know, air porosity, but higher water-holding get best we have for the crops that can pick up more and all that stuff. So that's also. Oh, yeah. Go ahead please. More, more crops, specific crop specific. Yes. And the thing is that, you know, this CA it is very technical industry and we have a technical product and we want to take advantage of this because it's not for, if it's for this works very well for the homeowner, but also for the large scale growers.

Right. Again, because. Putting in a lot of sophistication with everything that the control and alignment and all that stuff we want to do. Our part to this industry do to kick it up a notch, to improve the efficiency, to get to the next level, you know, improve the production ills and all that stuff. Yeah.

And wanted to develop more technical. Product that he's catered more for the specific needs. Uh, when the, when the three of us are, are together, um, this October at indoor icon, I hope we can, we can dig into this deeper. And, and, and I know there's been a lot of questions related, but I, I hope that everyone, you know, has listened to, you know, VJ really there's a lot to unpack.

There, there was a lot of very good points that he made just in regards to the development of their Aramex cubes. Um, and, and again, we've talked about this, but the. The, the attention plays on seedling production, especially on that critical early stage, you know, maybe the first seven days of a crop's life, comparatively, that's a small or short period of time, but it's very critical.

Um, and, and to the point of, um, and how that affects root temperature and shoot temperature, especially at that stage. So very important. Um, the, the difference in just those first few days, um, uh, have an improvement of a few degrees. That's a, that's a monumental. Uh, improvement, especially on a larger scale, um, better porosity, better oxygen, the replenish rate.

That's also something people don't think about. You just think of, okay, we're going to irrigate our seedlings, but obviously there's a lot more to it. And I hope people start looking at their seedling production, um, and their propagation. Um, much more closely, so that refresh rate that's important and, and the porosity to allow a dryer tub.

Everyone talks to me a lot about, um, you know, a waste or rock wall or a P N and, uh, Coco cubes in terms of the, the wetness causing a certain amount of algae growth and the concern around algae growth. And of course, we don't want that algae growth, but what comes with. The fungus gnat, uh, larva the shore fly larva.

Um, there's so many other pieces to that. So again, now that one. Seemingly small innovation is not, not small at all. And this is a really kind of an exciting segment of our industry. You know, we tend to look at the bigger, the bigger things if you will, but these are the real important parts that have the greatest impact overall on your crop development.

Um, from so many levels, early emergence, better nutrient uptake, lower incidents of disease because of oxygenation and root health. Uh, lower incidents, uh, potentially of inside paths. I mean, these are all very, very big and also hidden, hidden glue. Like they don't, uh, I don't think girl, Dan, uh, releases what's in the glue that they bind it together.

So we couldn't get that organic certification using grow dams. That that's one decision a grower would make based on that, you know? Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of factors that go into the decision for which type of propagation cubes, um, make the most sense. And now also VJ, I mean, people think of, of Smithers away SIS and they think of propagation blocks, but you also do a lot of work with growing as growing media.

It's kind of full on a finished media. Is that right? Um, so yeah, actually, um, we, uh, with the, the grower, uh, side of our business, when we started originally, then it's mainly for propagation of ornamental cotton. Uh, so actually it's a really cool story that how this whole thing started is that people are, you know, the, the point city is, are grown, used to be, you know, the propagated in California.

And there we're looking at shipping to New York. How do you ship it? Because the FedEx terms, uh, you know, 20 million terms, they get upside down and all that stuff. They were looking at how to ship it. That's how the Oasis actually came into picture, tried to solve the problem of shipping. These cuttings uprooted cuttings.

And then you can actually, if it is in a trade, even if you've turn upside down, if it's not getting up, it's not going to come out and, and all that stuff. So, yeah, to answer a question, um, um, um, uh, Joe, that yes, we have a substitute. Uh, for, uh, propagation of vegetative cuttings, uh, like, uh, you know, all the, the, uh, the ornamental that industrial hemp.

And also we have variations of foam is, are definitely . Substrate is one of our number one, but we also have the other substrates, like PBS for certain things. Because again, we want to create again as the thing, is that the solutions, right? It's not that, oh, this is the technology we got and we don't try it.

Uh, for everybody, this is that guy you better be using. Right? So depending on the crop, for example, point city is even hemp. They allow for example, foam to be propagated because again, a lot of the crops that doesn't like vet fees, Do Excel in, in, uh, in, in, uh, you know, engineered substrates. Um, and then the other thing, actually, our focus has been pretty much, very much on, uh, uh, the, uh, the complete, uh, growing substrates for tomatoes and peppers as well.

And we have done series of trials in Netherlands and yeah. And Almeria in Spain and all of that stuff. And what we are seeing is that, um, especially with the, with the tomatoes and peppers, because it goes through the vegetative and generators cycle, and you've got to constantly battle that the more the oxygen there is in the root zone.

So, yeah, especially if it is, uh, you know, 360 day crop again, right. It goes through the fall winter and all that stuff. Uh, when you're in summer, it doesn't really matter. Whatever water you're giving the plants can take. But during Ventra and especially during fall. Um, and what happens is that the water, you do it pretty much stagnates in that hoop zone and it tends to push more vegetative.

Um, so, so we are able to exactly, uh, um, monitor, uh, behalf actually regulate what's going on in the root zone. So we can steer the crops very effectively. Uh, that's one thing. And also, uh, that, uh, early on the first flower, the first food set and all that stuff with the higher, the drainage, it is more oxygen.

It is, and you can push them more, uh, January two as well. So those are the things that we are looking at, uh, with the new Eero max technology. We are looking at going again, um, uh, into the, uh, to, uh, to the, uh, uh, Uh, to the other, other, other highway of crops and all that stuff. Yeah, we did, uh, at the M hydro research greenhouses, we did, um, two, two full season crop trials, um, in Keuka in particular, in the cucumber, we did both late alpha and European cucumber, and we found that that oxygenation really pushed fruit quality.

We got really good overall yields, um, and, and improved plant health, particularly in the beta alpha cucumbers, which tend to. Lose vigor after a certain amount of time. And they start to, you know, they wind down a little quicker. We were able to extend the extend the growing season and the production season for those.

So that was a really good trial. And we look forward to doing more with that, but that, that oxygenation, um, and the ability to kind of control our root zone, um, oxygenation and porosity a little bit better. And moisture levels certainly played a big factor. What is your favorite cucumber? Okay. My minor. No, no.

Well you, yeah. Uh, of the beta alpha cucumbers and the Europeans, we were growing European cucumbers in Massachusetts, back in the 1980s where nobody, nobody was interested, the markets were not interested. Um, they had a few of those, what they call California cucumbers, which were just kind of, you know, the long Europeans coming out of Ontario wrapped up.

Um, very few people. Blot them because everyone was used to kind of the thick skin to pickling cucumbers. And it took a long time, but people have finally caught on because you know, the eating quality is so much better. So, so yeah, so European cucumbers, I always have a debate alphas also, you know, have that same quality and you know, we've always liked them growing also.

Um, they're, they're among my favorites to grow. Yeah. The same year. I actually liked the European union and also like the snack ones, the, the, the QCs and yeah. Um, yeah, those are, those are my favorites. Yeah. Yeah. Mean, yeah. What makes the best pickle ones? What's what are, what's the variety for the best deal?

We did the old Corona long Europeans, and we made pickles, uh, many buns with those and yeah, because they have a low acid content, a real nice flavor, Zuora, all, you know, everything during the pickling process crunch. Yeah. Yeah. We really love those a lot. Yeah. I got to have the crunch, gotta have that crunch and DaVita is pointed to pickle.

The, uh, the, the bite-sized cucumbers are always really great, but even with the Europeans, I like to peel them. So the, the, the longer, uh, Europeans are a lot easier to peel for me. So I like those. Uh, uh, Joe actually going back to the fertilizer, I would like to hit on a couple of important things. Actually, we're doing, um, a lot of, again, more, uh, nutrient trials and all that stuff looking at again, early on.

That was the, the thing again. Um, we did a lot of trials. What is the difference between, you know, initial water with the clear water or ASIS nutrients. And then we optimize that, that with. You know, we went through different ranges, like 0.2, 5.517 5.1. Again, the corresponding nitrogen numbers are like twenty-five 5,000 and all that stuff with the complete Buterin fertilizer.

So we found that actually the, with the initial soaking itself. Was it the hundred or 1 25 is optimal enough for, for leafy greens. Uh, and recently we have been trying to see, especially with the new varieties that are coming in, what if we doubled it? You see two, two, and three. And what, what it is interesting is that it is very crop specific.

Uh, spinach is one of the crop that is in nutrient hog. The more the nutrients you give actually can go to two, three easy. And actually it actually, you will see, we're seeing, uh, we got to do a couple of more trials to get a better handle on it, but we are seeing more. Um, more growth at the young plant level, even somehow it is affecting the germination grade.

But again, I don't want to, uh, I, we gotta do a couple of different lots to see if there is a, uh, really a thing or not. Because again, that's something, an issue that you struggled with spinach, proper, improper germination and all that, but not only the germination, but it's also helping with. With a faster growth.

Um, but when it comes to just the lettuce, um, again, we haven't seen anything that is more than hundred, uh, our hundred and twenty-five nitrogen with the complete uterine package. It is one EDC. It's not what we are seeing is that the toddler, the lettuce righty. They can have a benefit if you go a little bit more, but if the shock it is when it comes in contact with the surface on the substrate for a longer period of time, sometimes because of the Aqua transpiration, there can be a little bit of accumulation depending on how you're watering, and then you will see the burn right there at the, at the bottom leaf.

Uh, but we, we want to do a few more trials just to see what the new varieties that are coming. Especially with under the led, if there is a neutral recipe, we work, um, yeah. Uh, you know, constantly with the nutrients and all that stuff. So I got a quick question for you though. When is, when are we working on the microgreen?

Uh, So Nick, I need your help with that. Let's get that going ASAP. Yeah. The thing is that we help beautiful things that we can, uh, work for micro greens, but again, micro greens is a quick cry. Again, as like Joe mentioned early on the cost is one of the important thing, right? Again, with the microgreens being a broadcasted, uh, you know, and then it's a very quick crop, seven to 10 days, 12 days, whatever, depending on what it is, a lot of times these engineered substrates are coming as more, um, you know, More expensive because people can pretty much on burlap or are, are even like a charm and paper towels and all that stuff.

So you could use pretty much anything that is under the sun. So, so that has been, but, but you never know, I think, but on a commercial level, when you're using paper towels, it doesn't work on a commercial level. At some point it's going to catch up. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, we, yeah, we worked on few, uh, brought in a couple of things, but I think actually we got to look more into the systems approach, how we can double up again.

Uh, the other thing is that, uh, always, I am a big proponent of systems approach. You got to have the complete system, for example, Um, the, the, the form, our substrate, uh, always is a Hardy cubes, ease a technical product, and we got to have a complete system, how you seated for a large-scale grower and how you water it, the initial soaking and all that stuff, and the automation towards the end and all of that stuff.

So, again, coming back to your, uh, to your, uh, leaflet, Microgreens we got to look at in a systems perspective, how, what we can do to actually improve the efficiency. Well, I wouldn't want the seeds inside the medium boom, boom, boom. Yeah. So say like you're telling me my, my man hours just cut in half, you know, are even 75% now, now, now.

Yeah, like uncle Ben's rice, right? Just you put it in the microwave and turn it on. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. That's uh, that's always, uh, something we thought about, you know, to do that, but the challenge has been the shelf life of the seed, right? How the people gonna store it and where are they going to store it and all that stuff.

Now you're talking to, because right now with the substance. Yeah. Anything you could be in anything under 60, 70, and room temperature below that freezer, you can throw it anywhere and all that stuff. It's not an issue, but when it comes to see it again, that's the, but having said that maybe that fast moving crop, like micro greens, We're going, we're going through all our seeds within a month or two, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that's an excellent point though, to VJ's comments is that, you know, the, the growing medium or the seed or the, you know, any one of the singular components is just part of it and the, and the systems and the methodology is real important. So, so kind of to start wrapping it up a little bit, um, You know, obviously you and your research has provided so much valuable information and, and, and what, uh, Smith is a waste is puts out how can people access some of the information, you know?

So some of the, the results from, I know, you know, your new products, your nutrient, your growing methodology, your recommendations, how can people find out a little bit more about that and learn, um, you know, from all the, all the research work that you've been. Yeah, that's a great question. That's a great question, Joe.

Yeah, that's actually, I think we are, we are not, um, lagging behind on that, but the good news is that actually we are in a month from now. We will are a couple of months from now. Our business marketing department is actually working very diligently on launch. Can you hear me? Uh, with all this new information and there's a special push to push a lot of the new information on the social media as well.

Uh, that's one of the things that was, uh, kind of, uh, has been a little slow, but, um, Uh, we are seeing that there is a lot of need for this information. And then, yeah, so we, uh, yeah, so hopefully next couple of months we'll have a new website and new blog sites and all that stuff that are popping up. Um, and, uh, yeah, that's not great news.

So can I get one quick question in there real, real fast, if you can go to a younger self or the younger version of yourself and, and, and give some advice, what would that advice be? Huh? Oh, that's uh, oh, I gotta, now I gotta become a father for say I have two kids. One is at 12 and the other one is, uh, seven years old.

My all year old, hardly. Unfortunately, it's hard to say this he's a more a techie. Uh, he doesn't hardly know the difference between leaves and flowers for summaries. I don't eat. Definitely get my daughter is, is actual shield. Most black shoe allows flowers. She's a more artsy type of person. So what I always tell them is that, you know, just.

Uh, my aggravation is that just, um, um, growing up in India and all that stuff again, it's a different brought up and all that stuff, but what I always see is just explore, explore what is there and, and, and see what you like. Don't, you don't have to master anything. There's no pressure right now. And, but when you, once you explore, once you think that this is what you want, I want you to be master edit.

You do. And I want you to be perfect. So as simple as my kid, my son, my, my 12 year old, he started mowing the lawn. Then he was eight that I wanted to mow the lawn. I want to help you out and said, look, if this is hard, you can't do it. I mean, I, and there's a note I want to help. And this is, uh, I'm enjoying it.

Okay. If you want to do it, do it right. I want to just do straight straight-laced. That's the OCD to me, I guess, to do first, explore yourself, whatever you are doing to just see what you like and joy and all that stuff. Uh, you know, no pressure, just enjoy this blind what's once you find out what you like it.

And, um, you know, I, you know, be mastered. Yeah. That's why I like, um, awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Great advice all the way around, but, uh, excellent. So, um, you know, we, we just really started scratching the surface, but, but I hope everyone has really listened to what BJ said to say and, and can take away a number of great nuggets of valuable information and wisdom.

Um, we're going to talk a lot more about it, but it obviously, you know, your selection of seed, your germination process and practices. And your seedling propagation that early stage so critical. If you want successful crops, you have got to become successful at that, that very critically, uh, important propagation stage.

So, um, you know, the Oasis products obviously. Um, are tremendous tools there. The, the, the knowledge that you can get. So please go check out, um, uh, both VJ and, uh, submit as a waste as in a waste, just grow with solutions, um, online. And, um, I believe it's October 4th, that we'll be on the stage together, but, uh, the indoor ag con in Orlando is going to be a lot of fun.

We're gonna have a lot of great people there. Um, and, uh, VJ and Nick and I will be, uh, out, and we'll be talking about these in many other subjects. So please bring your questions. Um, and, uh, and we look forward to it very much. So VJ, thank you so much, uh, for your time today. We really appreciate it. Yeah.

It's, it's a great pleasure. Thank you very much, Joe, and Nick and looking forward for the indoor air con. So yeah, that's a, that's awesome. Yeah. As you said, I think that's just, we scratch the surface. There's a lot more. That goes into this. And, uh, yeah. And we'll talk about this some, some other times. Yeah.

There's a little bit of information that makes us a better grower is time well spent. So, so thank you again, and thank you to all of you for listening today. Again, a hope we hope we brought some, some good information. We've got a lot more great guests coming. We have a lot more great discussions. Systems growing practices, economics, new name it.

So, uh, please keep sending us your questions. Comments. We're looking forward to seeing you at the indoor ag con this fall. And in the meantime, we hope you all have a great day and we look forward to talking with you again soon.